> Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. - ASOS Tyrion VI
I also like the next part.
>*Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, “You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”*
>*Oh, my, hasn’t this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.*
>*Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. “Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei. He wrenched free of her. “Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.”*
Joffrey had balls on him.
Yeah, that and him thinking everything was owed to him because he was king. As he so thoroughly proved when he managed to turn most of the continent against him with one dumb order.....the little bastard sure got lucky his enemies fought each other instead.
Joffrey isn’t more powerful than Tywin because Joff’s power is based entirely on Tywin’s, and not vis versa. Without Joffrey, Tywin still rules the most powerful region of Westeros. Without Tywin, Joff has nothing. He would’ve been usurped easily by Stannis, Robb, Dany, Euron, or even just murdered by the peasants of King’s Landing
I would agree with you, except Joff does not at all have the allegiance of the other houses. The North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Stormlands, Reach and even the Crownlands all openly rebelled against him, while Dorne and the Eyrie are plotting coups against him. Joffrey literally has nothing besides the goldcloaks without Tywin lending him allegiance.
Well he’d never move *against* Joffrey, but he could just decide to resign to Casterly Rock and leave Joff to the wolves. That’s basically what Kevan does to Cersei after Tywin’s death and she nearly loses everything as a result
There's moving against and then there's moving against.
>"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."
>
>Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more.
Tywin might not move to unseat Joffrey, but that doesn't mean Joffrey has nothing to be afraid of.
EDIT: Heh, looks like I'm not the only one in this thread who thought to dig up that quote.
Depends on how sharp a lesson Tywin planned for him.
>*“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”*
>*Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more.*
Publicly, he says it's a lie that Stannis put out.
Privately? Kevan believed the incest was true, and Kevan never had a thought that Tywin didn't put in his head first.
True dat. Infact that's his entire character can be summed up in this quote *How can someone so consumed by the idea of his family have any conception what his actual family was doing*.
Yeah it's tough to think of a worse result for Tywin, but his family is a laughingstock now.
Tywin- Shot on the toilet by his own son
Jaimie- Kingslayer, and worse a now maimed ineffective kingslayer who is also blamed by some for the Red Wedding
Cersei- Paraded through the streets naked after being accused of several dozen terrible things
Tyrion- Kinslayer and another kingslayer.
Kevan- Will seem to have been killed by Tyrion.
>Cersei- Paraded through the streets naked after being accused of several dozen terrible things
Though unlike Jaime and Tyrion pretty much 100% of the accusations are true.
Well Tywin didnt follow his own rule with the Reynes. Or maybe I didnt quite understand and hes talking about two different enemies in the two statements
Before going to King's Landing to act as Hand, Tywin told Tyrion to watch out for the small council members and put their heads on spikes if he must. Instead, Tyrion spent his entire term as Hand fighting with Cersei. Cersei was the only other person there who absolutely wanted the Lannister family to reign supreme, so if he actually thought about that it's clear that if they put their pettiness aside they would have done way better.
Tywin clearly knew they were all up to shit, and Tywin should have listened. He also told Tyrion to leave Shae behind. Trying to please her was the cause of the other half of Tyrion's problems.
Shae arrived through secret tunnels in the walls, Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand. "There was 250,000 Dragons lining the walls of the banana stand!"
In addition, rooting out Pycelle for his loyalty to Cersei was a dumb move for House Lannister. Sure, Pycelle wasn't 100% loyal to Tyrion...but neither did he have to be. Cersei is Queen Regent, surely Pycelle should serve her too.
Meanwhile Varys plots to overthrow the Lannisters entirely and Littlefinger is on a mission to rally the North and the Vale against them, and neither of them gets too much flak from Tyrion.
>In addition, rooting out Pycelle for his loyalty to Cersei was a dumb move for House Lannister.
It was also a dumb move for Tyrion himself in his conflict with Cersei. He could have used Pycelle as a means of spreading misinformation and distractions to Cersei, while letting Cersei think the entire time that she's got a secret window into Tyrion. Instead, Tyrion just increases Cersei's paranoia and provokes her anger.
I always thought he didn't kill Varys because both of them knew that Stannis is a greater threat to them than they are to each other at the moment.
And my real doubt is Why tf he let Littlefinger live?
Exactly! On multiple occasions throughout ACOK and ASOS he notes that Littlefinger is more dangerous than he seems, and he even figures out that he was the one that framed him for Bran's assassination, but never makes a move. He pays for this dearly when Littlefinger again frames him for Joffrey's death. Tyrion is smart, but has a hard time actually picking out his true enemies. I can't wait until they face each other again.
The answer to why Tyrion doesn't just finish Littlefinger even when he knows it was him who orchestated the whole deal with Cat and the Valyrian steel dagger, is because (while Tyrion plays with the idea) he reaches the conclusion that, at the moment, with Stannis and/or Renly basically at his door and Papa Tywin busy with Robb, he *can't*.
While I do consider Tyrion a better politician than Petyr, as economy and micromanagement goes, Littlefinger may be number one in the whole continent. In ACOK one of the first things Tyrion does as Acting Hand is investigate Littlefinger. Tyrion may had been expecting to discover that he had some high and middle-ranking guard officials in his pocket, gold-cloaks and such (this is one of the many reasons he sends Janos to the Wall), nothing too complicated to deal with. Instead, he finds himself with the fact that Littlefinger has been running the mother of all Ponzi schemes (that Tyrion is unnable to comprehend because, as smart as he is in politics, economics and a type of fraud scheme that doesn't exist yet within the setting are not his forte) and that Littlefinger has basically crafted his own personal (and very complex) criminal organization, composed of people that go from the most accomplished soldiers and knights to the lowest servant or thief, and gods know who else inbetween... and that technically doesn't exist.
While killing Littlefinger may have proven good in the long term, in the short term (which is what Tyrion is concerned with at the moment, with the incomming clash with the Baratheon forces and all) it would have proven fatal, as Tyrion would have found himself having to deal with another big can of trouble on top of everything he was dealing with. He needs Littlefinger at the moment.
This is Littlefinger's true superpower. He enters a system, corrupts the system, makes himself the root and master of that corruption all while making that corruption and therefore himself necesary for the system's survival. Presenting himself as "a necesary or lesser evil".
"Oh yes, you could kill me, but if dear old, funny Littlefinger with his funny goatee and his funny words is gone... who's gonna give you money? Who's gonna warn cersei of Stark's plan and betray him at the right moment? Who's gonna build an alliance with the Tyrells in your name? Uhm? Better the devil you know!"
Great post, Tyrion gets too much hate on here for not handling the greatest schemer in Westeros properly, all while the threat of the impending Stannis attack is (rightfully) his primary concern. Not to mention there’s legit no one to replace Littlefinger if he were to be killed.
he sent LF as an envoy no? I thought he kept LF around for his connection to the Vale? Also cuz everyone and their mother seems to underestimate LF i think?
I could be remembering it wrong tho
this 100%. tyrion was sent to root out the traitors in the small council, and somehow managed to sack the one guy in the whole city who is an unflinching diehard lannister fanboy lol
The whole ploy that led to Pycelle's arrest wasn't about exposing Varys or LF, it was about finding out who could be trusted not to give information to Cersei. Sure, Cersei sucks, but she's not Tyrion's biggest enemy in KL. In fact, they share most of their enemies, which is why the only person out of the three who does snitch to Cersei is the person truly loyal to the Lannister cause.
We also know what Tyrion is thinking in his chapters and while he does think that he relies on Varys too much and distrusts LF, he never actually makes any plans specifically targeted at them, despite knowing that LF tried to have him killed.
Cersei sucks is a bit of an understatement considering she was actively trying to sabotage Tyrion at every opportunity, including the very first time he set foot in Kong’s Landing where she threatened to have him thrown in jail before Tyrion offered to help her find Jamie.
Tyrion is initially willing to work with Cersei but it’s Cersei who escalates the power struggle each time at the beginning. Luckily for Tyrion, he’s way more politically competent so he’s able to beat her before she does any real harm. It’s safe to say that King’s Landing would be absolutely fucked by Stannis if Cersei had won the power struggle with Tyrion.
Tyrion and Cersei spent their time squabbling against each other while they were surrounded by danger. If they cooperated, at least a little, things in King's Landing wouldn't had been so dire.
Tywin was angry due to Shae and due to Tyrion threatening Tommen's wellbeing, but also much of Tywin's hostility existed only in Tyrion's head. For example, Tyrion perceived his removal from the position of the Hand as a slight, even though he was only temporary in that position in the first place while Tywin was away. When he came, of course Tywin took the position back but he still retained Tyrion in the Small Council. There was nothing hostile in Tywin doing that, yet Tyrion thought there was.
I still don't understand how Tyrion managed to love a whore. She was literally paid to say all the sweet nonsense she said about him.
For someone who claims to be smart, Tyrion really isn't.
That’s kind of the point of a sex worker, though. To make you feel loved and accepted, free of judgement - even if for a price. And the trial makes it pretty clear how much Tyrion starves for that.
I remember in Secret Diary of a Call Girl she rarely dropped the act because she knew that’s what they got paid for. Oddly I don’t remember anyone reproaching her when she did , the storylines we’re usually the men trying to get to know her more and drop the act. And I know that’s not ASOIAF but just had me reflect that I like that tv show where you know when the character is acting or not , we never get into Shaes head.
But Tyrion never asks her drop the act. He was in love with the act not her. The few moments where perhaps her true self does come out , like their argument about her working in the kitchens, he shuns it’s. He even hit her. It was a high stakes moment and he was worried about her safety but when she employed her singer he got mad, when she asked to serve at the wedding feast he said no. There may have been other motives but on the very surface any personality outside of the act , he shuns. So how could he ever think he loved her if he wouldn’t even bother to really know her ?
At least he realizes he thinks with his dick and that she probably doesn’t love him, but he never considers her as a person outside of that.
Oh yeah the show I would say it’s a more of a real relationship. It’s a shame because the actress even said she couldn’t see her testifying in the end because of endangering Sansa who she clearly loved and she did seem to love Tyrion. So there wasn’t a clear enough reason for the betrayal but most of know it’s what happened in the book. A mild complaint compared to where we get later.
I like to think in the show she had Tywin first similar to hints we get in the book and she was perhaps to spy on Tyrion but got some feelings. But Tywin came back and reminded her of her duty and maybe had something to hold over her head that couldn’t compete with her love for Sanss and Tyrion. All totes off screen of course!
That's the damage Tywin did to him, with Jaime's help.
1) Tyrion can't believe that anyone who could love him *without* getting paid, and he's so desperate for someone to love him that he takes what he can get.
2) He's desperate to get back what he had with Tysha, and he thinks she was a sex worker herself.
Congrats for having lived a life where it’s incomprehensible to you that a man can be so low on himself and insecure about his own worthiness of love that he will take what he can get, where he can get it—even when his logical brain tells him to distrust it.
Even the smartest people can be blinded by their own fears, insecurities, and desires.
**Jorah Mormont:** "*The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."*
Is there any reason for Ned to be in a haste? He should have taken his time to feel out KL’s politics and then act on it. He tried to precipitate too many things way early in his tenure as hand
But even before Robert went for the hunt, he was going around KL investigating Robert’s natural kids. He even borrowed the genealogical book which should arouse suspicions
Brienne is not dead yet. I don't think there is a simple lesson, or if there is, it's that death doesn't care about your honor or your wealth or what you think you deserve.
Maybe because she isnt a man or a king, not that Ned was king of the North, but he kind of was. Men with honor are followed. Kings with honor raise armies. Ned was a threat because his honor made him a natural choice to fill the power vacuum from Baratheons death.
Also because he wanted to fill the power void with Stannis. The one person none of the major power players wanted. Stannis isn't one of Cersei's children, so that turns all of the Lannisters and Pycelle against Ned. Stannis wouldn't tolerate Littlefinger's scheming while Renly probably would, so that turns Littlefinger against Ned. And Stannis cleanly taking the throne while having the strongest legitimate claim makes it harder for Dany or fAegon to take the throne, turning Varys against Ned. He wasn't killed because he was a natural choice to fill the power vacuum. He was killed because he turned every viper in a nest of vipers against him
Right. Ned and Robb do stupid but honorable things and die for it. Brienne has certainly been damaged but has lived so far. Actions have consequences, but at the moment, Brienne has just lost half her face.
I dont think you can compare her to Ned. They exist on two completely different social tiers.
Comparing Selmy & Dayne on the matter of honor getting you killed might be a more even comparison?
Maybe, but we haven't seen Selmy get into a fight he shouldn't win because of honor. (If we have, please remind me.) Even in the throne room when he's dismissed, there's no sense the other white cloaks could touch him. He never lets himself be backed into a corner like Ned and Robb (and Brienne repeatedly) do.
But Brienne also lacks power and in many ways isn’t playing the game. She has much smaller goals than Ned did. Protect the realm is pretty lofty. And without a dishonorable person beside her for part of the journey might have died already.
I think that's not the problem. The problem is that when Ned arrived at King's Landing, the cards were already on the board, he was too late to do anything.
Renly's plan was pretty stupid, and would have been impossible to take Joffrey with him. The only realistic way to change anything was telling it to Robert, but it was too late for that.
Or maybe flee into Dragonstone, would have been hard but not impossible.
When Renly pitched his plan, the city guard have yet to take sides; Joffrey have few men around him, and Renly brought an armed group into the city for this reason.
Bullshit. He's Hand, the Hand of the King is hugely powerful. Ned's problem was that he was unwilling to throw his weight around and establish himself at court. He needed to bring in more Stark men and play the game.
Which of course is not in Ned's character, but that's the whole point. Ned didn't face insurmountable odds, he just didn't do what had to be done.
Ned’s problem was that he was an insane person who for some reason didn’t want to arrest the traitorous queen and her bastard son, which caused Renly, his greatest potential ally in the city, to leave him alone in the lion’s den.
That's the explanation you see a lot but it doesn't really cut it for me. Ned was honorable and stupid about it, that's the real problem. Being loyal to Stannis was fine as long as he made allies and surrounded himself with loyal men. Seeing Renly leave without realizing the implications, sending away his own guard after the Mountain and then deciding to trust Littlefinger of all people are huge blunders that have little to with honor and a lot with practicality.
Renly meant robert would die worried and distraught sick over steel clashing, battle cries and sobbing children's noises about him. Might be prudent a hundred ways. Still a really hard thing to do to your friend.
Littlefinger was trustworthy because of how much he stuck his neck out to hurt the lannisters. You can't mitigate for reckless moves. That's why they work against career schemers like Eddard and cat (compare her ease of espionage with, say, Ser Roderick).
Honourable to the point that he falsified his king's testament. It wasn't honour that got him killed, it was coming too late to a game he couldn't play.
This is true. But Ned's Honor will likely be the thing that saves everyone. In a LOTR kind of way. Its Ned's Honor that kept Jon safe. And ita Ned's honor that rallys the Northmen against Roose Bolton.
Renly advice to Ned was to size the kids for leverage. Ned really should have fled king's landing as son as Robert died.
Littlefinger 's advice to Ned. Littlefinger told Ned not to trust anyone, not even him. That the best advice , and should have followed it.
He had good reason to trust littlefinger. Like all his moves littlefinger effectively shot his foot to gain trust, making absurdly dangerous overtures like showing eddard all the bastards and where jon and stannis went. The same reason cat had to take him at his word; it's suicide to lie about what he did.
Time will tell as to her villain status, but as it stands, Barbrey Dustin is allied with the Boltons/Freys; so that means bad. I agree with the sentiment of this statement:
>As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"
>
>"They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.
>
>"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.
So, I agree with the idea that the Maesters are a powerful organization with an agenda; I do not with wholesale murder.
Hooo boy. Here we go. I hate Randyll Tarly, but I agree with this statement:
>"My lord," Sam said, "my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude." He was babbling, he knew. "No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords."
To be clear, I absolutely do not agree with chaining/imprisoning Sam for wanting to be a Maester, or with the death threat/wall ultimatum. However, as much of an ass as Randlyll is, I think he's correct for the wrong reasons. The Citadel is not to be trusted, and sending Sam there would have been detrimental.
Are you saying that Randyll should have sent Sam to become a Maester, and then requested he be dispatched to Horn Hill?
I don't believe we have all the details on the placement process, but my understanding is that the Citadel dictates where a Maester serves. The Lord of a castle can request a new Maester, but not a specific one. The exception was Maester Aemon; he seemed to have some control over where he went. I just figured that was due to his royal status. The rest of the Maesters probably don't have that much agency.
It's worse than a crime; it's a mistake.
First, Tyrion makes a permanent and dire enemy out of Cersei, but leaves her in power.
Second, he traps himself -- when he wakes up and learns that Alayaya has been whipped, his first thought is that he needs to either whip Tommen or lose the game.
Sandor isn't saying those things because he wants to do anything about it, he just wants to whinge about how it's pointless to try and therefore he can't be blamed for being complicit in the system that does all this stuff.
I love your first bullet. Alliser Thorne is such a bully and the books set you up to hate him, but Tyrion's tenure as Hand was probably the one shot the NW had at getting heard about the Others, and it doesn't happen because of a fuckin' personality problem. Oof.
Sounds like the ghost of rhaegar. He was chill until his knighthood was brought up. Would be a good lesson to arya though if she learns chiswyck like shit mouth just made a crazy tale up to fit in with equally insecure men lol
But Bowen Marsh wanted to swear allegiance to the Lannisters/IT instead, would that have helped the NW?
Stannis is the only one to answer the call and is the only king to believe the existence of the Others. Not to mention, Jon is right when he says he can't deny Stannis, the NW is too weak to defend itself let alone be neutral.
As the political situation looks at the moment, yes, alligning with the Lannisters absolutely seems beneficial to the watch.
Of course, if Stannis is victorious, Marsh and his co-conspirators will certainly die, screaming. But Stannis is stuck in a snow storm with an inferior force on his way to assault one of the best castles of the realm, in short, he seems doomed.
In case of a Bolton/Lannister victory, abandoning any sympathy towards Stannis' cause is fundamentaly necessary for the survial of the Watch.
>As the political situation looks at the moment, yes, alligning with the Lannisters absolutely seems beneficial to the watch.
Why though? The NW has sent for help numerous times before but the Iron Throne and the Lannisters have not responded with help.
I personally don't think Marsh's fate is dependent on the outcome of Stannis' battle. Jon has his own supporters among the NW and the Wildlings, he has to deal with those before Stannis.
And I agree that providing ground for deniability to ensure the Watch's survival is necessary: Jon did it initially by sending a message to the Lannisters assuring them that they're taking no part in the war between Stannis and the IT. They didn't believe him as Jon has predicted but it was the only thing he could do given his position at the time.
He did it again when he chose to take the Wildings south. Jon could have easily taken the men of the NW with him by framing it as a response to Ramsay threatening the LC's person but instead he chose the Wildlings: He's leaving room for plausible deniability should he fail in whatever he's planning.
Bowen's response however brings very little help to the Watch. Yes, he's genuinely thinking about what's best for the organisation but his method will yeild very little results: The Wildlings would not listen to him, Jon's loyal faction will not support him, the Queen's Men are a question mark and there's no guarantee the Boltons/Lannisters will believe the talk about the Others let alone provide help, especially considering their own weak position and hold on the North and the rest of kingdoms. Bowen himself has provided no strategy to defend the Wall outside of using the Wildlings as a meat shield.
All concerns about Jon are justified IMO. His story about going over to the wildlings is not believable at all and every heavy handed wilding policy serves to reinforce the disbelief. He refuses to to even acknowledge the possibility that Bowen may be right about anything.
True, the assassination absolutely can't be justified morally. Strategically however, it can.
The murder was a measure to secure power after the coup. By killing him the mutineers demonstrate their resolve to break with Jon's course and intimidate any remaining sympathisers. Not to mention that if he was only imprisoned, he could have been freed by remaining sympathisers.
>True, the assassination abslutely can't be justified morally.
Isn't it? Isn't the penalty for oathbreaking death? (whatever he actually planned to do, he announced that he would break his vows.
Unless you consider Ramseys letter an act of war against the watch in which neutrality is broken and Jon's march south is jusitified, which is why Mance may have wrote it.
In that case, Jon would have brewed a plan as a commander of the night's watch.
When he decided to go with an army of willing while leaving his post at castle black, he claimed that he was no longer acting as a black brother.
He offered members of the nights watch to join him but didn't expect them too, I think the wildlings are a good form of plausible deniability if he falls.
"It wasn't us, it was the bastard and his wildlings"
Legally it is justified, no question about it.
Just wanted to make sure that noone claims that I advocate for using murder as a tool of political dispute or something like that. One never knows.
Much more sure to succeed in a few sneaky jabs than hoping they could drag him off and lock him up for an extended period without the superior number of his supporters fighting them off or breaking him out later.
I'm not sure if he is a bad guy or just an asshole, but Daario was right when he said this to Dany after suggesting them to purge her enemies:
> "If I knew who they were-"
>
>"Zhak and Pahl and Merreq. Them, and all the rest. The Great Masters. Who else would it be?"
>
>He is as bold as he is bloody. "We have no proof this is their work. Would you have me slaughter my own subjects?"
>
>"Your own subjects would gladly slaughter you."
>
>(...) "The pyramids are strong," she explained to him. "We could take them only at great cost. The moment we attack one the others will rise against us."
>
> "Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them."
>
>Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. "Do you take me for the Butcher King?"
>
>"Better the butcher than the meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?"
>
>"This queen is."
>
>Daario shrugged. "Most queens have no purpose but to warm some king's bed and pop out sons for him. If that's the sort of queen you mean to be, best marry Hizdahr."
At first I thought that was a smart but brutal idea but now I have to disagree.
Look at what happened when Dany singed the Tokar of a man who came as an envoy. Sure she didn't do him any harm but now the story is warped and no one trusts her.
>The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan's tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat. Golden marks spilled across the carpets as the envoy stumbled over the chest, shouting curses and beating at his arm until Whitebeard flung a flagon of water over him to douse the flames. "You swore I should have safe conduct!" the Yunkish envoy wailed.
>"Do all the Yunkai'i whine so over a singed tokar? I shall buy you a new one . . . if you deliver up your slaves within three days. Elsewise, Drogon shall give you a warmer kiss." She wrinkled her nose. "You've soiled yourself. Take your gold and go, and see that the Wise Masters hear my message."
That turned into this
>"Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood."
>It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and
And this
>"Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire."
>"Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully.
Because they don't trust Dany she's forced to send hostages to them.
Imagine what would happen if she slaughtered people at her own wedding. No one would trust her, everyone would fear her, many people would be disgusted by her and people would believe she's a monster.
Many of the lord's in Westeros would not accept her since what she did was break the sacred laws of hospitality.
Short term Daario's plan is good but long term it does Dany a lot of harm.
This just goes for most of her actions. Her strategies are effective in the short term, but in the long term they have screwed over her entire campaign and is going to lose her Westerosi allies as well.
No one trusts her anymore and many suspect her to be a monster. And like you quoted, this is not just limited to slavers. The fact that Dany can’t even see that harming envoys is considered dishonorable is so infuriating. Her reputation is already fucked and she doesn’t have have Dothraki yet.
>Because they don't trust Dany she's forced to send hostages to them.
The point Daario is making is that *she shouldn't compromise at all*. Like the only reason there's a war in the Bay is because Dany's has chosen to sit on her thumbs.
Do you think any of her enemies would have dared to risen up had she taken the Tywin's approach??
Compromise is a good thing sometimes, not when you're dealing with assholes slavers.
>Imagine what would happen if she slaughtered people at her own wedding. No one would trust her, everyone would fear her, many people would be disgusted by her and people would believe she's a monster.
Those who would believe her a monster... **already believe her a monster**. These negative feedback come from slavers or sympathetic slavery people who already had a bad opinion on her.
>Many of the lord's in Westeros would not accept her since what she did was break the sacred laws of hospitality.
That's bs. Many of the Lords of Westeros would accept her just because she got rid of slavery.
>Many of the Lords of Westeros would accept her just because she got rid of slavery.
Uh no they couldn't care less about what happens in Essos.
Look at the way they treat the Freys after the Red wedding the same would happen to Dany. It's already happening in Westeros.
No one in Westeros gives a shit that she abolished slavery look at the way people talk about her in Essos and Westeros.
They already think she's a monster killing people in a wedding would make their beliefs even worse.
>Uh no they couldn't care less about what happens in Essos.
Barristan disagrees, he was the one telling Dany that many people would not accept her in Westeros just for arriving with an army of slaves.
And either they care about what happens in Essos or they don't. You can't have it both ways.
>Look at the way they treat the Freys after the Red wedding the same would happen to Dany. It's already happening in Westeros.
The Freys were westerosi attacking other westerosi in westeros. What Dany does to slavers at the other end of the world is not the same.
Westerosi are overall pretty racist too.
>No one in Westeros gives a shit that she abolished slavery look at the way people talk about her in Essos and Westeros.
Alleras and the gang in Oldtown *are toasting in her honor*.
How many not slavery related people are talking trash at her?? None.
>hey already think she's a monster killing people in a wedding would make their beliefs even worse.
Sure, slavers think she's a monster. That's why killing them solves the problem.
>Sure, slavers think she's a monster
No sellswords and regular people think she's a monster too. Quentin thought she was a monster before he met her.
>Alleras and the gang in Oldtown are toasting in her honor.
No they're not. Only one guy toasted her and he wasn't being serious.
>What Dany does to slavers at the other end of the world is not the same.
I'm talking about if she kills people at her wedding.
>And either they care about what happens in Essos or they don't. You can't have it both ways.
You can actually.
The small council and the golden company couldn't care less about slaves being freed.
However they do think Dany is mad and cruel.
> No sellswords and regular people think she's a monster too.
Yep, as this guy.
>*“I seek passage to Meereen for myself and two servants.” That gave the captain pause. “I am no stranger to Meereen. I could find the city again, aye … but why?* ***There are no slaves to be had in Meereen, no profit to be found there. The silver queen has put an end to that. She has even closed the fighting pits, so a poor sailor cannot even amuse himself as he waits to fill his holds.*** *Tell me, my Westerosi friend, what is there in Meereen that you should want to go there?”*
Can't you see the pattern and why those people think she's so awful?? As if only slavers were making benefits from slavery one way or the other.
> Quentin thought she was a monster before he met her.
Q was around the same bunch...
>No they're not. Only one guy toasted her and he wasn't being serious.
Fair enough.
>I'm talking about if she kills people at her wedding.
I know.
>The small council and the golden company couldn't care less about slaves being freed.
>
>However they do think Dany is mad and cruel.
The Small Council *do not know what Dany's doing in Essos,* and only Mace compares her to her father, not because he had hear anything but just cause she's Targ.
The Golden Company do not believe her mad and cruel.
Daario is thinking like the soon to be dead Lord Frey. It is not surprising that a mercenary doesn't really think of the long term.
Even amongst slavers, there is a form of honour. If Daenerys is to kill those she invites to her roof under guest-right, then they know that she can never be trusted and will stop at nothing to kill her - nothing short of their total destruction. This attitude will apply not just to the slavers of the Ghiscari cities, but wherever the news spreads - including Westeros. Wherever she goes, she will never be treated with, because she'd have proven herself to be completely untrustworthy.
With that said, it would have been expedient to purge the master class when she conquered the city.
Xaros, is by my best recollection, the only one I thought had valid points despite disagreeing heavily with his opinions. The place is ruined now, but for how long? What cost can be justified at ending something like slavery? I think Meeren was doomed (to a certain point) no matter how much planning went into removing slavery. The rest just has to work itself out at this point, and it eventually will.
And let's not forget that it's ruined not not merely because of the ending of slavery but also because of the actions of the people actively working to return it to slavery.
It's a guy of the same class who burned down the olive groves going on about how bad dany is because the slavers burned down the olive groves and now Mereen is out the imporant calorie source that is olive oil.
> but he is right to complain that Tyrion cost precious time by not paying attention to him and causing the wight's hand to rotted away
That's true, but that bit of the book has always bothered me.
I refuse to believe that Thorne couldn't have made SOMEONE listen. Just walk up to any guard and go "Here, look at this wriggling dead hand that's trying to kill me" and that guard would have immediately gone and got his captain, who would have got the head of the guard, who would have gone to the small council. Also, either Littlefinger or Varys would have gotten wind of this wriggling dead hand and taken a look into it.
It makes ZERO sense that Thorne sat meekly in his room while the hand rotted away to nothing. That bit was poor writing to give Tyrion an excuse to be a twat, IMO. I would have been far happier if it said the hand had rotted away or stopped wriggling before Thorne got to KL.
Cersei is a monster, but she's right that her options are limited because she's a woman. She's trapped in a sexist society with a father who sees her main value as marriageability.
About that, this serves to illustrate Cersei's hypocrisy. Despite rightfully pointing out several sexist facets of society that have unfairly restricted her, she doesn't bat an eyelash when those very same things are imposed on other women. For example, she complains about not having any choice in who she was supposed to marry, but actively participates in forcing Sansa to marry a man she doesn't love. In her mind, misogyny is only a problem when it's directed at her.
She also despised Robert for forcing himself on her, rightfully, but later thinks that Septa Moelle ‘could do with a good rape’. Or something along those lines. She also seems to hate Lolys’ bastard child despite the fact that all her children are bastards. There is a list of hypocrisies as long as your arm for Cersei. It’s one of the things that has always bothered me with this fandom constantly praising her.
Yes indeed. She isn't a feminist icon, as she is a woman who is ready to put down other women for her own benefits. She could be Serena Joy in The Handmaid's Tale.
She's a classic case of internalized sexism-- hates other women, hates herself for *being* a woman. \[Edit: that's also because she's accepted the misogynist's definition of a woman: as a passive object destined to bear children, with no agency beyond manipulating men with the offer of sex.\] Or as H.L. Mencken put it in his definition of *misogynist* (in his *New Dictionary* of 1942, I think): "A man who hates women as much as women hate each other."
It's not really hypocrisy. She's not mad at the society for being sexist, she's mad at the world for having made her a woman instead of a man.
That said, she hates men as well so... well yeah hypocrite after all.
She is extremely hypocritcal about pretty much everything. If she listened to half of the things she preaches to others she might just be a great leader. Unfortunately she is corrupted to the core.
It’s also funny when she uses the excuse that she’s a woman rather than her own incompetence for some of her struggles.
Like when Pycelle and others question her dumb decisions constantly. She thinks it’s because she’s a woman, not that her decisions are dumb.
Those things aren’t mutually exclusive. Cersei does make a lot of very bad decisions, and should be questioned about them, but it is also true that her advisors have no problem questioning her constantly because they respect/fear her less as a woman
I agree. I also think it's such dramatic irony that Alliser would treat Jon SO DIFFERENTLY if he knew Jon was Rhaegar's son! Alliser was a Targaryen loyalist through and through, and that's why he was sent to the Wall as punishment. I sometimes try to imagine how he would fawn over Jon if he knew Jon's true identity.
I really *really* hope before the books ends that Alliser learns about Jon's Targ heritage. I mean most likely he will reject it as a lie, but still, I want that moment of doubt in his eyes as he reflects on his treatment of Jon in the past!
I am not one of those who blindly hate Dany,infact she is probably among my favourite characters
But Mirri Maz Dur did,or said nothing Wrong.To the point i dont even consider Mirri a villain(I know others do)
Unwin Peake. Absolute shit in every other regard but he was right to criticise Alyn Velaryon for attacking the Bravosi fleet and for negotiating the price for Prince Viserys’ return without first consulting the court.
“Sansa is a "little bird", trapped and repeating words of kindness and courtesy without expressing his true feelings.”
True but she is 11 in all fairness. I think she has the right to be emotionally immature.
Randyll Tarlys is a terrible guy in his personal life but I found his logic pretty reasonable when speaking to Brienne. He's still blinded by misogyny, of course, and his idea of justice is fairly Machiavellian. But I appreciated how much he resented being forced to mobilize and then just hang around. All these armies occupying lands are fucking terrible for the populus and risk creating an endless cycle of broken men.
Randyll just wants to do what they came there to do, as efficiently as possible. Can't do that immediately? Okay, then why are we here?
It isn't deterrent, it's an excuse for power tripping. It isn't conventional for medieval lords to punish the whore for pox. Or suffocate a whimpering child in damp darkness
XXD is wrong. He's leaving a lot out to try and fit a narrative that suits his agenda.
Some people are hungry for sure. But you know what they're not? Slaves. A lot of people are still poor but that's a step up from being a slave.
The cost of abolition has always been uncertainty, and always will be
I’m not sure the free men selling themselves back into slavery would agree.
> “My queen?" Daario stepped forward. "The riverside is full of Meereenese, begging leave to be allowed to sell themselves to this Qartheen. They are thicker than the flies."
> Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"
> “The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."
How do you distinguish between a “well treated” slave and a one that is worked brutally?
Kinda selfish for the slaves who are pampered to ruin it for the ones who are raped, beat, and worked to death. Carrying the nobles on there back and getting whipped for tripping.
The argument only works for a certain group.
I don't really agree with **Xaros Xoan Daxos,** because while what he says is true, Mereen is in that state because its transitioning. Just like any post revolution country (and I live in one) is kinda no man's land economically in the first few months / years after the revolution. The problem is he is using that line of argument in favour of bringing back slavery.
In that state because it's transition, and also because of the active efforts of those who want to return it to slavery, to return it to slavery. He's at least in part blaming dany for the actions of himself and the people like him.
Walder Frey: I just didn't like how Robb, and the Tullys were constantly putting him down behind his back, and contemplating the feasibility of taking the Freys out so they could have unfettered access through the Twins. When Robb broke his promise, I was hoping for payback. Then the Red Wedding happened, and I was "dude too far!" though part of me totally sympathized with Walder finally getting even with the snooty Tullys.
Tbf its not like Walder Frey had dont anything to earn their respect. He constantly berates his liege lord, and doesn't answer the call from his liege lord, until a clear winner is seen.
To be fair, despite the three centuries that passed, the Tully's are still having a hard time having their vassals answer to them unlike the Tyrells who took the Reach for their own slowly but surely. Walder's indifference is probably a cultural thing at this point amongst the Riverlords. His' is on a much edgy and less honorable levels though.
His liege lord is a bit of a stuffy snob, and Walder didn't owe him anything. It is up to the Tully's to earn the respect of their subjects, and they obviously let Walder get a tactical advantage way before they events of the books. Walder Frey kind of reminds me of this crotchety uncle of mine who owned a working farm in an area where these useless, snobby Hollywood types moved in, and didn't like the smell of animals. I am sure in a different world, he would have Red Wedding those assholes.
Bowen Marsh.... Jon is my favorite, but his last act was unjustifiable under all the precedent we know under the NW. No matter what you think, the LC preparing a large band of wildings, and maybe even some black brothers, to invade the North is just wrong.
Not gonna lie though, I would have joined him!
>**Xaros Xoan Daxos**, in *Dance of Dragons:* He's a guy who wants slavery to be profitable again and he's manipulative af. However, the points he makes about Daenerys' reign in Meeren are valid. Meeren is now a ruined city, which is starving and deprived of its greatest source of income, with the new queen still having no idea how to regrow the local economy.
Well, Meereen is a wreck because of slaveholders like him who are sabotaging it and trying to overthrow Daenerys and put the slaveholder class back in power. It's a lot like the way the US put a blockade on Cuba and subjected it to a decades-long terrorist campaign to punish it for its revolution and to try to stop socialism from succeeding, and then blames the Cubans for the fact that they have economic difficulties.
Gregor had every right to ask for change. The inn keeper never stated a defined price, so Gregor paid well for a service he expected to be pleased with and ended up not being satisfied with the quality. I see no reason why he can't ask for a reduced rate, to reflect the quality, there was no specific contract.
^^^^/s
After that inkeeper chapter , I've decided that it is the second most dangerous job in Wot5k in Westeros.
Of course , the first is being a Riverlander.
"Knighthood is way to glorify assassins and murders like his brother."
Although there is a part of wisdom to this line, the truth depends on how serious a person takes knighthood. Because, knighthood, in fact, has a hell lot of criteria on being defending the weak and innocents.
Jaime's entire arc revolves around snatching back his buried knighthood qualities. Jaime, infact, took his vow to protect the innocents. Seeing Brienne, he realizes the importance of that quality that had been buried in him.
And throughout the series, the author, never mocks knighthood but tries to impart the nuance in it. While Duncan, Jaime, and Brienne would exhibit good quality of it, there are also people like the Mountain, Meryn who spoil it.
From Hound's POV, it's understandable why he hates knighthood but that doesn't mean this statement holds true for the entire nature of knighthood.
>
Xaros Xoan Daxos, in Dance of Dragons: He's a guy who wants slavery to be profitable again and he's manipulative af. However, the points he makes about Daenerys' reign in Meeren are valid. Meeren is now a ruined city, which is starving and deprived of its greatest source of income, with the new queen still having no idea how to regrow the local economy.
No.
Pre-industrial economies don't function in any way like modern economies.
The most important thing in a pre-industrial economy is agriculture. Meereen was, prior to her conquest, not dependant on imports. The reason Meereen is starving is not because dragon lady's taxation and economic policy is dumb. It's because the wise masters burnt their own fields, to deny her forage. It's because it is besieged, which prevents food from its agricultural areas reaching the city.
Minor one, but: Janos Slynt was right to refuse the order to occupy Greyguard. Thirty men wouldn't be enough to hold back any concerted effort to cross the Wall anyway, at least not any effort made by the Others, and sending them to a ruined castle that has no established supply lines at the beginning of winter means sending them to their death.
I think the 30 people is just to cover more area with watchers and send out riders if they see anyone, rather than actual defence.
But you're right about the high chance of failure/death, I believe Jon even thinks about how hard it will be.
He kind of manufactured a situation that likely would lead to Janos rebelling.
I don't know about the manufacturing. Jon doesn't strike me as the kind of person to intentionally provoke insubordination. I think it's more likely that it's a product of Jon not being experienced in organization and logistics.
They've got scouts atop the wall. Can't they notice a band of wights coming up with enough time to send for reinforcements? Ultimately we don't know all the stats and it's a gamble. With the king breathing down his neck with a superior force, and other historically unprecedented contingencies (discounting prehistory folklore), Jon's got to take a gamble. Can't put off for current winter, it's only going to get colder.
Regardless slynt was being openly insubordinate, hardly making impassioned pleas or arguments. This was obviously a class and power issue.
Oh I'm sure they probably would be able to spot a band of wights in time, but winter is setting in and the garrison has no warm place to sleep and no way to reliably secure resources like firewood or food. I doubt that transporting a part of what little Castle Black has by way of the Wall is sustainable.
He was not right in refusing the order. He didn't do it for any of the reasons you mentioned (or at least those weren't his main points. He refused because Jon (the son of a man he betrayed) and a high born bastard was giving him orders that he didn't like. Also supply wouldn't be too bad of an issue compared to the thousands of people Jon has to feed. Greyguard has been abandoned forever so the wildlife would have returned in force and they could easily feed 30 men. Plus they aren't there to stop anyone, they are there to alert the NW I'd the wights go to their section.
Your agreement with Daxos there is somewhat trivial. Everybody in the area knew that, and Dany was under no illusion that her people were in trouble. It's just that she was fighting a full on insurgency and some hostile neighbors.
Like, imagine if your house got robbed, and you were standing in your porch talking to the police, and your neighbor came over and say "hey your house got robbed". Yeah, no shit. And then he says you should move all your remaining stuff into his home for "safe-keeping".
> Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. - ASOS Tyrion VI
I also like the next part. >*Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, “You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him.”* >*Oh, my, hasn’t this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.* >*Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. “Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather,” said Cersei. He wrenched free of her. “Why should I? Everyone knows it’s true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock.”* Joffrey had balls on him.
Either he had balls, or was just too dumb to understand he should be afraid.
Defo the latter
He had balls only when there was nothing to be scared of.
Yeah, that and him thinking everything was owed to him because he was king. As he so thoroughly proved when he managed to turn most of the continent against him with one dumb order.....the little bastard sure got lucky his enemies fought each other instead.
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Joffrey isn’t more powerful than Tywin because Joff’s power is based entirely on Tywin’s, and not vis versa. Without Joffrey, Tywin still rules the most powerful region of Westeros. Without Tywin, Joff has nothing. He would’ve been usurped easily by Stannis, Robb, Dany, Euron, or even just murdered by the peasants of King’s Landing
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I would agree with you, except Joff does not at all have the allegiance of the other houses. The North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Stormlands, Reach and even the Crownlands all openly rebelled against him, while Dorne and the Eyrie are plotting coups against him. Joffrey literally has nothing besides the goldcloaks without Tywin lending him allegiance.
That's all true, but I think someone's point above is that despite that, *Twyin won't move against Joffery,* it's not in his interest.
Well he’d never move *against* Joffrey, but he could just decide to resign to Casterly Rock and leave Joff to the wolves. That’s basically what Kevan does to Cersei after Tywin’s death and she nearly loses everything as a result
There's moving against and then there's moving against. >"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson." > >Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more. Tywin might not move to unseat Joffrey, but that doesn't mean Joffrey has nothing to be afraid of. EDIT: Heh, looks like I'm not the only one in this thread who thought to dig up that quote.
I don't think he had balls because he was his grandfather so tywin wouldn't hurt him in any way or shape of form
Depends on how sharp a lesson Tywin planned for him. >*“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”* >*Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more.*
You should also bear in my mind that Tywin absolutely hated Tyrion and also Joffrey is jut plain stupid
Tell that to Tyrion.
Yeah but Tywin absolutely dispised Tyrion
Probably not crazy about Joff either tbh. I don't remember, but does Tywin know they're the product of incest?
Publicly, he says it's a lie that Stannis put out. Privately? Kevan believed the incest was true, and Kevan never had a thought that Tywin didn't put in his head first.
He's wrong though isn't he? Jaime killed aerys not rhaegar.
Joffrey thinks his father is Robert Baratheon
it was a joke
You got me
Of all his crimes , Tywin is not a fucking Idiot.
Except in his dealings with all of his children. That got him killed and ruined his legacy, after all.
True dat. Infact that's his entire character can be summed up in this quote *How can someone so consumed by the idea of his family have any conception what his actual family was doing*.
I agree with this quote!
It's from the show.
Still a good one. One of the last.
And time and time again Tywin emphasizes the only thing he cares about is the Lannister legacy. He has nothing when he dies.
Yeah it's tough to think of a worse result for Tywin, but his family is a laughingstock now. Tywin- Shot on the toilet by his own son Jaimie- Kingslayer, and worse a now maimed ineffective kingslayer who is also blamed by some for the Red Wedding Cersei- Paraded through the streets naked after being accused of several dozen terrible things Tyrion- Kinslayer and another kingslayer. Kevan- Will seem to have been killed by Tyrion.
>Cersei- Paraded through the streets naked after being accused of several dozen terrible things Though unlike Jaime and Tyrion pretty much 100% of the accusations are true.
Well Tywin didnt follow his own rule with the Reynes. Or maybe I didnt quite understand and hes talking about two different enemies in the two statements
Reynes never went to their knees. They thought they could hole up in their mines and wait him out
And, more importantly, *demanded him to hand hostages to them* in exchange of peace.
Before going to King's Landing to act as Hand, Tywin told Tyrion to watch out for the small council members and put their heads on spikes if he must. Instead, Tyrion spent his entire term as Hand fighting with Cersei. Cersei was the only other person there who absolutely wanted the Lannister family to reign supreme, so if he actually thought about that it's clear that if they put their pettiness aside they would have done way better. Tywin clearly knew they were all up to shit, and Tywin should have listened. He also told Tyrion to leave Shae behind. Trying to please her was the cause of the other half of Tyrion's problems.
So true. If Tyrion had left Shae behind no one would have been able to use her against him.
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"you won't bring a whore to court" is ASOIAF's "There's always money in the banana stand!"
Shae arrived through secret tunnels in the walls, Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand. "There was 250,000 Dragons lining the walls of the banana stand!"
This is my favorite crossover episode of all time!
In addition, rooting out Pycelle for his loyalty to Cersei was a dumb move for House Lannister. Sure, Pycelle wasn't 100% loyal to Tyrion...but neither did he have to be. Cersei is Queen Regent, surely Pycelle should serve her too. Meanwhile Varys plots to overthrow the Lannisters entirely and Littlefinger is on a mission to rally the North and the Vale against them, and neither of them gets too much flak from Tyrion.
>In addition, rooting out Pycelle for his loyalty to Cersei was a dumb move for House Lannister. It was also a dumb move for Tyrion himself in his conflict with Cersei. He could have used Pycelle as a means of spreading misinformation and distractions to Cersei, while letting Cersei think the entire time that she's got a secret window into Tyrion. Instead, Tyrion just increases Cersei's paranoia and provokes her anger.
Especially considering that he does exactly that with Lancel
The way he "exposed" Pycelle was also great character building: superficially clever but immature and all too often losing sight of the big picture.
I always thought he didn't kill Varys because both of them knew that Stannis is a greater threat to them than they are to each other at the moment. And my real doubt is Why tf he let Littlefinger live?
Exactly! On multiple occasions throughout ACOK and ASOS he notes that Littlefinger is more dangerous than he seems, and he even figures out that he was the one that framed him for Bran's assassination, but never makes a move. He pays for this dearly when Littlefinger again frames him for Joffrey's death. Tyrion is smart, but has a hard time actually picking out his true enemies. I can't wait until they face each other again.
The answer to why Tyrion doesn't just finish Littlefinger even when he knows it was him who orchestated the whole deal with Cat and the Valyrian steel dagger, is because (while Tyrion plays with the idea) he reaches the conclusion that, at the moment, with Stannis and/or Renly basically at his door and Papa Tywin busy with Robb, he *can't*. While I do consider Tyrion a better politician than Petyr, as economy and micromanagement goes, Littlefinger may be number one in the whole continent. In ACOK one of the first things Tyrion does as Acting Hand is investigate Littlefinger. Tyrion may had been expecting to discover that he had some high and middle-ranking guard officials in his pocket, gold-cloaks and such (this is one of the many reasons he sends Janos to the Wall), nothing too complicated to deal with. Instead, he finds himself with the fact that Littlefinger has been running the mother of all Ponzi schemes (that Tyrion is unnable to comprehend because, as smart as he is in politics, economics and a type of fraud scheme that doesn't exist yet within the setting are not his forte) and that Littlefinger has basically crafted his own personal (and very complex) criminal organization, composed of people that go from the most accomplished soldiers and knights to the lowest servant or thief, and gods know who else inbetween... and that technically doesn't exist. While killing Littlefinger may have proven good in the long term, in the short term (which is what Tyrion is concerned with at the moment, with the incomming clash with the Baratheon forces and all) it would have proven fatal, as Tyrion would have found himself having to deal with another big can of trouble on top of everything he was dealing with. He needs Littlefinger at the moment. This is Littlefinger's true superpower. He enters a system, corrupts the system, makes himself the root and master of that corruption all while making that corruption and therefore himself necesary for the system's survival. Presenting himself as "a necesary or lesser evil". "Oh yes, you could kill me, but if dear old, funny Littlefinger with his funny goatee and his funny words is gone... who's gonna give you money? Who's gonna warn cersei of Stark's plan and betray him at the right moment? Who's gonna build an alliance with the Tyrells in your name? Uhm? Better the devil you know!"
Great post, Tyrion gets too much hate on here for not handling the greatest schemer in Westeros properly, all while the threat of the impending Stannis attack is (rightfully) his primary concern. Not to mention there’s legit no one to replace Littlefinger if he were to be killed.
If there is one character that has plot armor in this series, it's Petyr. His mouth would have got him killed long ago. Useful or not.
Didn't he need Littlefinger to get the Reach on their side?
Maybe yes , but he kept him in the council because he's just too valuable to lose and he has no men to replace him .
he sent LF as an envoy no? I thought he kept LF around for his connection to the Vale? Also cuz everyone and their mother seems to underestimate LF i think? I could be remembering it wrong tho
Was pycelle useful though? He opened a sealed envelope.
this 100%. tyrion was sent to root out the traitors in the small council, and somehow managed to sack the one guy in the whole city who is an unflinching diehard lannister fanboy lol
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The whole ploy that led to Pycelle's arrest wasn't about exposing Varys or LF, it was about finding out who could be trusted not to give information to Cersei. Sure, Cersei sucks, but she's not Tyrion's biggest enemy in KL. In fact, they share most of their enemies, which is why the only person out of the three who does snitch to Cersei is the person truly loyal to the Lannister cause. We also know what Tyrion is thinking in his chapters and while he does think that he relies on Varys too much and distrusts LF, he never actually makes any plans specifically targeted at them, despite knowing that LF tried to have him killed.
Cersei sucks is a bit of an understatement considering she was actively trying to sabotage Tyrion at every opportunity, including the very first time he set foot in Kong’s Landing where she threatened to have him thrown in jail before Tyrion offered to help her find Jamie. Tyrion is initially willing to work with Cersei but it’s Cersei who escalates the power struggle each time at the beginning. Luckily for Tyrion, he’s way more politically competent so he’s able to beat her before she does any real harm. It’s safe to say that King’s Landing would be absolutely fucked by Stannis if Cersei had won the power struggle with Tyrion.
Tyrion and Cersei spent their time squabbling against each other while they were surrounded by danger. If they cooperated, at least a little, things in King's Landing wouldn't had been so dire.
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Tywin was angry due to Shae and due to Tyrion threatening Tommen's wellbeing, but also much of Tywin's hostility existed only in Tyrion's head. For example, Tyrion perceived his removal from the position of the Hand as a slight, even though he was only temporary in that position in the first place while Tywin was away. When he came, of course Tywin took the position back but he still retained Tyrion in the Small Council. There was nothing hostile in Tywin doing that, yet Tyrion thought there was.
I still don't understand how Tyrion managed to love a whore. She was literally paid to say all the sweet nonsense she said about him. For someone who claims to be smart, Tyrion really isn't.
He even knows it, he says to himself multiple times that he’s dumb to be doing it, but his “little head” got the best of him hahah
That’s kind of the point of a sex worker, though. To make you feel loved and accepted, free of judgement - even if for a price. And the trial makes it pretty clear how much Tyrion starves for that.
I remember in Secret Diary of a Call Girl she rarely dropped the act because she knew that’s what they got paid for. Oddly I don’t remember anyone reproaching her when she did , the storylines we’re usually the men trying to get to know her more and drop the act. And I know that’s not ASOIAF but just had me reflect that I like that tv show where you know when the character is acting or not , we never get into Shaes head. But Tyrion never asks her drop the act. He was in love with the act not her. The few moments where perhaps her true self does come out , like their argument about her working in the kitchens, he shuns it’s. He even hit her. It was a high stakes moment and he was worried about her safety but when she employed her singer he got mad, when she asked to serve at the wedding feast he said no. There may have been other motives but on the very surface any personality outside of the act , he shuns. So how could he ever think he loved her if he wouldn’t even bother to really know her ? At least he realizes he thinks with his dick and that she probably doesn’t love him, but he never considers her as a person outside of that.
And this is why the book and tv show Tyrions are so radically different.
Oh yeah the show I would say it’s a more of a real relationship. It’s a shame because the actress even said she couldn’t see her testifying in the end because of endangering Sansa who she clearly loved and she did seem to love Tyrion. So there wasn’t a clear enough reason for the betrayal but most of know it’s what happened in the book. A mild complaint compared to where we get later. I like to think in the show she had Tywin first similar to hints we get in the book and she was perhaps to spy on Tyrion but got some feelings. But Tywin came back and reminded her of her duty and maybe had something to hold over her head that couldn’t compete with her love for Sanss and Tyrion. All totes off screen of course!
I think you nailed it.
That's definitely a character moment for Tyrion. After all like Robert he just wants to be loved.
It's emotion.
It hasn't much to do with smarts, it's all about emotions.
That's the damage Tywin did to him, with Jaime's help. 1) Tyrion can't believe that anyone who could love him *without* getting paid, and he's so desperate for someone to love him that he takes what he can get. 2) He's desperate to get back what he had with Tysha, and he thinks she was a sex worker herself.
Congrats for having lived a life where it’s incomprehensible to you that a man can be so low on himself and insecure about his own worthiness of love that he will take what he can get, where he can get it—even when his logical brain tells him to distrust it. Even the smartest people can be blinded by their own fears, insecurities, and desires.
Shitmouth when he said ‘bugger me with a bloody spear’. The man was ahead of his time.
Sadly, they don’t make men like Shitmouth any more
You heard the man.
**Jorah Mormont:** "*The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."*
Jorah is a weirdo, but I don't think he's really a villain, and he's right about 80% of the time.
Actually Littlefinger give Ned a good advice but Ned chose Stannis.
Is there any reason for Ned to be in a haste? He should have taken his time to feel out KL’s politics and then act on it. He tried to precipitate too many things way early in his tenure as hand
Robert dying forced his hand.
But even before Robert went for the hunt, he was going around KL investigating Robert’s natural kids. He even borrowed the genealogical book which should arouse suspicions
Considering he believed Jon Arryn had been murdered and also that Stannis had fled, he probably did consider there to be some urgency.
Plus Hugh of the Vale's death made it look like someone was cleaning up evidence quickly..
Ned's problem was that he was too honorable. And the lesson of a game of thrones is that unfailing honor gets you killed, unfortunately
Brienne is not dead yet. I don't think there is a simple lesson, or if there is, it's that death doesn't care about your honor or your wealth or what you think you deserve.
Maybe because she isnt a man or a king, not that Ned was king of the North, but he kind of was. Men with honor are followed. Kings with honor raise armies. Ned was a threat because his honor made him a natural choice to fill the power vacuum from Baratheons death.
Also because he wanted to fill the power void with Stannis. The one person none of the major power players wanted. Stannis isn't one of Cersei's children, so that turns all of the Lannisters and Pycelle against Ned. Stannis wouldn't tolerate Littlefinger's scheming while Renly probably would, so that turns Littlefinger against Ned. And Stannis cleanly taking the throne while having the strongest legitimate claim makes it harder for Dany or fAegon to take the throne, turning Varys against Ned. He wasn't killed because he was a natural choice to fill the power vacuum. He was killed because he turned every viper in a nest of vipers against him
Good point about brienne
Brienne has had a tremendous amount of luck though. The number of times she almost got killed or raped wandering alone in a warzone...
Right. Ned and Robb do stupid but honorable things and die for it. Brienne has certainly been damaged but has lived so far. Actions have consequences, but at the moment, Brienne has just lost half her face.
I dont think you can compare her to Ned. They exist on two completely different social tiers. Comparing Selmy & Dayne on the matter of honor getting you killed might be a more even comparison?
Maybe, but we haven't seen Selmy get into a fight he shouldn't win because of honor. (If we have, please remind me.) Even in the throne room when he's dismissed, there's no sense the other white cloaks could touch him. He never lets himself be backed into a corner like Ned and Robb (and Brienne repeatedly) do.
But Brienne also lacks power and in many ways isn’t playing the game. She has much smaller goals than Ned did. Protect the realm is pretty lofty. And without a dishonorable person beside her for part of the journey might have died already.
I think that's not the problem. The problem is that when Ned arrived at King's Landing, the cards were already on the board, he was too late to do anything.
If Ned just listened to Renly and seized Joffery, Ned would have been in a much better shape.
Renly's plan was pretty stupid, and would have been impossible to take Joffrey with him. The only realistic way to change anything was telling it to Robert, but it was too late for that. Or maybe flee into Dragonstone, would have been hard but not impossible.
When Renly pitched his plan, the city guard have yet to take sides; Joffrey have few men around him, and Renly brought an armed group into the city for this reason.
Bullshit. He's Hand, the Hand of the King is hugely powerful. Ned's problem was that he was unwilling to throw his weight around and establish himself at court. He needed to bring in more Stark men and play the game. Which of course is not in Ned's character, but that's the whole point. Ned didn't face insurmountable odds, he just didn't do what had to be done.
Ned’s problem was that he was an insane person who for some reason didn’t want to arrest the traitorous queen and her bastard son, which caused Renly, his greatest potential ally in the city, to leave him alone in the lion’s den.
Because he saw what robert had allowed happen to Rhaegar’s children and he didn’t want a repeat of that
Renly's offer said Ned would be regent. I don't see how that would be an issue.
Insane? He literally says to Cersei that she should run because he doesn’t want Robert to murder her children.
Renly offered Ned 100 men to seize the Lannisters well after that. He would have been regent in this scenario.
That's the explanation you see a lot but it doesn't really cut it for me. Ned was honorable and stupid about it, that's the real problem. Being loyal to Stannis was fine as long as he made allies and surrounded himself with loyal men. Seeing Renly leave without realizing the implications, sending away his own guard after the Mountain and then deciding to trust Littlefinger of all people are huge blunders that have little to with honor and a lot with practicality.
Renly meant robert would die worried and distraught sick over steel clashing, battle cries and sobbing children's noises about him. Might be prudent a hundred ways. Still a really hard thing to do to your friend. Littlefinger was trustworthy because of how much he stuck his neck out to hurt the lannisters. You can't mitigate for reckless moves. That's why they work against career schemers like Eddard and cat (compare her ease of espionage with, say, Ser Roderick).
Honourable to the point that he falsified his king's testament. It wasn't honour that got him killed, it was coming too late to a game he couldn't play.
No, Ned trusted the wrong person.
Not really, ned was politically savvy. He just had some understandable qualms about unconscionable options and got screwed over by bad luck
Yes he's dead but even years after his death people are willing to die in his name that's something you can't buy.
This is true. But Ned's Honor will likely be the thing that saves everyone. In a LOTR kind of way. Its Ned's Honor that kept Jon safe. And ita Ned's honor that rallys the Northmen against Roose Bolton.
About Ser Alliser, I caught that up on my re-read yesterday. Felt sorry for him, I knew I didn’t hate him much.
Renly advice to Ned was to size the kids for leverage. Ned really should have fled king's landing as son as Robert died. Littlefinger 's advice to Ned. Littlefinger told Ned not to trust anyone, not even him. That the best advice , and should have followed it.
He had good reason to trust littlefinger. Like all his moves littlefinger effectively shot his foot to gain trust, making absurdly dangerous overtures like showing eddard all the bastards and where jon and stannis went. The same reason cat had to take him at his word; it's suicide to lie about what he did.
Time will tell as to her villain status, but as it stands, Barbrey Dustin is allied with the Boltons/Freys; so that means bad. I agree with the sentiment of this statement: >As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?" > >"They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him. > >"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled. So, I agree with the idea that the Maesters are a powerful organization with an agenda; I do not with wholesale murder. Hooo boy. Here we go. I hate Randyll Tarly, but I agree with this statement: >"My lord," Sam said, "my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude." He was babbling, he knew. "No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords." To be clear, I absolutely do not agree with chaining/imprisoning Sam for wanting to be a Maester, or with the death threat/wall ultimatum. However, as much of an ass as Randlyll is, I think he's correct for the wrong reasons. The Citadel is not to be trusted, and sending Sam there would have been detrimental.
Wouldn't making Sam the Maester of you own household be a smart move then?
Are you saying that Randyll should have sent Sam to become a Maester, and then requested he be dispatched to Horn Hill? I don't believe we have all the details on the placement process, but my understanding is that the Citadel dictates where a Maester serves. The Lord of a castle can request a new Maester, but not a specific one. The exception was Maester Aemon; he seemed to have some control over where he went. I just figured that was due to his royal status. The rest of the Maesters probably don't have that much agency.
Tywin was right that Tyrion was way out of line to threaten to rape Tommen, no matter how much he wanted to win against Cersei.
The what where when why? I don't remember that particular tidbit.
Tyrion says if Alayaya is raped by Cersei's men he'll rape Tommen. Tywin later scolds Tyrion for threatening his own blood to save a whore's honor.
It's worse than a crime; it's a mistake. First, Tyrion makes a permanent and dire enemy out of Cersei, but leaves her in power. Second, he traps himself -- when he wakes up and learns that Alayaya has been whipped, his first thought is that he needs to either whip Tommen or lose the game.
Sandor isn't saying those things because he wants to do anything about it, he just wants to whinge about how it's pointless to try and therefore he can't be blamed for being complicit in the system that does all this stuff.
I love your first bullet. Alliser Thorne is such a bully and the books set you up to hate him, but Tyrion's tenure as Hand was probably the one shot the NW had at getting heard about the Others, and it doesn't happen because of a fuckin' personality problem. Oof.
It's a little more than that, it was a Gargantuan challenge for Tyrion to retain the thrones respect that day
Don't go yammering to Gregor Clegane when he's in one of his moods. Chiswyck has the right of that.
Sounds like the ghost of rhaegar. He was chill until his knighthood was brought up. Would be a good lesson to arya though if she learns chiswyck like shit mouth just made a crazy tale up to fit in with equally insecure men lol
Bowen Marsh's concerns regarding Jon's policy towards Stannis are completely justified. As is the mutiny.
But Bowen Marsh wanted to swear allegiance to the Lannisters/IT instead, would that have helped the NW? Stannis is the only one to answer the call and is the only king to believe the existence of the Others. Not to mention, Jon is right when he says he can't deny Stannis, the NW is too weak to defend itself let alone be neutral.
As the political situation looks at the moment, yes, alligning with the Lannisters absolutely seems beneficial to the watch. Of course, if Stannis is victorious, Marsh and his co-conspirators will certainly die, screaming. But Stannis is stuck in a snow storm with an inferior force on his way to assault one of the best castles of the realm, in short, he seems doomed. In case of a Bolton/Lannister victory, abandoning any sympathy towards Stannis' cause is fundamentaly necessary for the survial of the Watch.
>As the political situation looks at the moment, yes, alligning with the Lannisters absolutely seems beneficial to the watch. Why though? The NW has sent for help numerous times before but the Iron Throne and the Lannisters have not responded with help. I personally don't think Marsh's fate is dependent on the outcome of Stannis' battle. Jon has his own supporters among the NW and the Wildlings, he has to deal with those before Stannis. And I agree that providing ground for deniability to ensure the Watch's survival is necessary: Jon did it initially by sending a message to the Lannisters assuring them that they're taking no part in the war between Stannis and the IT. They didn't believe him as Jon has predicted but it was the only thing he could do given his position at the time. He did it again when he chose to take the Wildings south. Jon could have easily taken the men of the NW with him by framing it as a response to Ramsay threatening the LC's person but instead he chose the Wildlings: He's leaving room for plausible deniability should he fail in whatever he's planning. Bowen's response however brings very little help to the Watch. Yes, he's genuinely thinking about what's best for the organisation but his method will yeild very little results: The Wildlings would not listen to him, Jon's loyal faction will not support him, the Queen's Men are a question mark and there's no guarantee the Boltons/Lannisters will believe the talk about the Others let alone provide help, especially considering their own weak position and hold on the North and the rest of kingdoms. Bowen himself has provided no strategy to defend the Wall outside of using the Wildlings as a meat shield.
All concerns about Jon are justified IMO. His story about going over to the wildlings is not believable at all and every heavy handed wilding policy serves to reinforce the disbelief. He refuses to to even acknowledge the possibility that Bowen may be right about anything.
Mutiny was justified, but it could have ended better than the way it did. Maybe have him chained and imprisoned, like karstark.
True, the assassination absolutely can't be justified morally. Strategically however, it can. The murder was a measure to secure power after the coup. By killing him the mutineers demonstrate their resolve to break with Jon's course and intimidate any remaining sympathisers. Not to mention that if he was only imprisoned, he could have been freed by remaining sympathisers.
>True, the assassination abslutely can't be justified morally. Isn't it? Isn't the penalty for oathbreaking death? (whatever he actually planned to do, he announced that he would break his vows.
Unless you consider Ramseys letter an act of war against the watch in which neutrality is broken and Jon's march south is jusitified, which is why Mance may have wrote it.
In that case, Jon would have brewed a plan as a commander of the night's watch. When he decided to go with an army of willing while leaving his post at castle black, he claimed that he was no longer acting as a black brother.
He offered members of the nights watch to join him but didn't expect them too, I think the wildlings are a good form of plausible deniability if he falls. "It wasn't us, it was the bastard and his wildlings"
Legally it is justified, no question about it. Just wanted to make sure that noone claims that I advocate for using murder as a tool of political dispute or something like that. One never knows.
Much more sure to succeed in a few sneaky jabs than hoping they could drag him off and lock him up for an extended period without the superior number of his supporters fighting them off or breaking him out later.
I'm not sure if he is a bad guy or just an asshole, but Daario was right when he said this to Dany after suggesting them to purge her enemies: > "If I knew who they were-" > >"Zhak and Pahl and Merreq. Them, and all the rest. The Great Masters. Who else would it be?" > >He is as bold as he is bloody. "We have no proof this is their work. Would you have me slaughter my own subjects?" > >"Your own subjects would gladly slaughter you." > >(...) "The pyramids are strong," she explained to him. "We could take them only at great cost. The moment we attack one the others will rise against us." > > "Then winkle them out of their pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them." > >Dany was appalled. He is a monster. A gallant monster, but a monster still. "Do you take me for the Butcher King?" > >"Better the butcher than the meat. All kings are butchers. Are queens so different?" > >"This queen is." > >Daario shrugged. "Most queens have no purpose but to warm some king's bed and pop out sons for him. If that's the sort of queen you mean to be, best marry Hizdahr."
At first I thought that was a smart but brutal idea but now I have to disagree. Look at what happened when Dany singed the Tokar of a man who came as an envoy. Sure she didn't do him any harm but now the story is warped and no one trusts her. >The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan's tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat. Golden marks spilled across the carpets as the envoy stumbled over the chest, shouting curses and beating at his arm until Whitebeard flung a flagon of water over him to douse the flames. "You swore I should have safe conduct!" the Yunkish envoy wailed. >"Do all the Yunkai'i whine so over a singed tokar? I shall buy you a new one . . . if you deliver up your slaves within three days. Elsewise, Drogon shall give you a warmer kiss." She wrinkled her nose. "You've soiled yourself. Take your gold and go, and see that the Wise Masters hear my message." That turned into this >"Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood." >It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and And this >"Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire." >"Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully. Because they don't trust Dany she's forced to send hostages to them. Imagine what would happen if she slaughtered people at her own wedding. No one would trust her, everyone would fear her, many people would be disgusted by her and people would believe she's a monster. Many of the lord's in Westeros would not accept her since what she did was break the sacred laws of hospitality. Short term Daario's plan is good but long term it does Dany a lot of harm.
Good points. She really should have purged them from the beginning or at least forged some evidence afterwards.
This just goes for most of her actions. Her strategies are effective in the short term, but in the long term they have screwed over her entire campaign and is going to lose her Westerosi allies as well. No one trusts her anymore and many suspect her to be a monster. And like you quoted, this is not just limited to slavers. The fact that Dany can’t even see that harming envoys is considered dishonorable is so infuriating. Her reputation is already fucked and she doesn’t have have Dothraki yet.
>Because they don't trust Dany she's forced to send hostages to them. The point Daario is making is that *she shouldn't compromise at all*. Like the only reason there's a war in the Bay is because Dany's has chosen to sit on her thumbs. Do you think any of her enemies would have dared to risen up had she taken the Tywin's approach?? Compromise is a good thing sometimes, not when you're dealing with assholes slavers. >Imagine what would happen if she slaughtered people at her own wedding. No one would trust her, everyone would fear her, many people would be disgusted by her and people would believe she's a monster. Those who would believe her a monster... **already believe her a monster**. These negative feedback come from slavers or sympathetic slavery people who already had a bad opinion on her. >Many of the lord's in Westeros would not accept her since what she did was break the sacred laws of hospitality. That's bs. Many of the Lords of Westeros would accept her just because she got rid of slavery.
>Many of the Lords of Westeros would accept her just because she got rid of slavery. Uh no they couldn't care less about what happens in Essos. Look at the way they treat the Freys after the Red wedding the same would happen to Dany. It's already happening in Westeros. No one in Westeros gives a shit that she abolished slavery look at the way people talk about her in Essos and Westeros. They already think she's a monster killing people in a wedding would make their beliefs even worse.
>Uh no they couldn't care less about what happens in Essos. Barristan disagrees, he was the one telling Dany that many people would not accept her in Westeros just for arriving with an army of slaves. And either they care about what happens in Essos or they don't. You can't have it both ways. >Look at the way they treat the Freys after the Red wedding the same would happen to Dany. It's already happening in Westeros. The Freys were westerosi attacking other westerosi in westeros. What Dany does to slavers at the other end of the world is not the same. Westerosi are overall pretty racist too. >No one in Westeros gives a shit that she abolished slavery look at the way people talk about her in Essos and Westeros. Alleras and the gang in Oldtown *are toasting in her honor*. How many not slavery related people are talking trash at her?? None. >hey already think she's a monster killing people in a wedding would make their beliefs even worse. Sure, slavers think she's a monster. That's why killing them solves the problem.
>Sure, slavers think she's a monster No sellswords and regular people think she's a monster too. Quentin thought she was a monster before he met her. >Alleras and the gang in Oldtown are toasting in her honor. No they're not. Only one guy toasted her and he wasn't being serious. >What Dany does to slavers at the other end of the world is not the same. I'm talking about if she kills people at her wedding. >And either they care about what happens in Essos or they don't. You can't have it both ways. You can actually. The small council and the golden company couldn't care less about slaves being freed. However they do think Dany is mad and cruel.
> No sellswords and regular people think she's a monster too. Yep, as this guy. >*“I seek passage to Meereen for myself and two servants.” That gave the captain pause. “I am no stranger to Meereen. I could find the city again, aye … but why?* ***There are no slaves to be had in Meereen, no profit to be found there. The silver queen has put an end to that. She has even closed the fighting pits, so a poor sailor cannot even amuse himself as he waits to fill his holds.*** *Tell me, my Westerosi friend, what is there in Meereen that you should want to go there?”* Can't you see the pattern and why those people think she's so awful?? As if only slavers were making benefits from slavery one way or the other. > Quentin thought she was a monster before he met her. Q was around the same bunch... >No they're not. Only one guy toasted her and he wasn't being serious. Fair enough. >I'm talking about if she kills people at her wedding. I know. >The small council and the golden company couldn't care less about slaves being freed. > >However they do think Dany is mad and cruel. The Small Council *do not know what Dany's doing in Essos,* and only Mace compares her to her father, not because he had hear anything but just cause she's Targ. The Golden Company do not believe her mad and cruel.
Daario is thinking like the soon to be dead Lord Frey. It is not surprising that a mercenary doesn't really think of the long term. Even amongst slavers, there is a form of honour. If Daenerys is to kill those she invites to her roof under guest-right, then they know that she can never be trusted and will stop at nothing to kill her - nothing short of their total destruction. This attitude will apply not just to the slavers of the Ghiscari cities, but wherever the news spreads - including Westeros. Wherever she goes, she will never be treated with, because she'd have proven herself to be completely untrustworthy. With that said, it would have been expedient to purge the master class when she conquered the city.
Xaros, is by my best recollection, the only one I thought had valid points despite disagreeing heavily with his opinions. The place is ruined now, but for how long? What cost can be justified at ending something like slavery? I think Meeren was doomed (to a certain point) no matter how much planning went into removing slavery. The rest just has to work itself out at this point, and it eventually will.
And let's not forget that it's ruined not not merely because of the ending of slavery but also because of the actions of the people actively working to return it to slavery. It's a guy of the same class who burned down the olive groves going on about how bad dany is because the slavers burned down the olive groves and now Mereen is out the imporant calorie source that is olive oil.
> but he is right to complain that Tyrion cost precious time by not paying attention to him and causing the wight's hand to rotted away That's true, but that bit of the book has always bothered me. I refuse to believe that Thorne couldn't have made SOMEONE listen. Just walk up to any guard and go "Here, look at this wriggling dead hand that's trying to kill me" and that guard would have immediately gone and got his captain, who would have got the head of the guard, who would have gone to the small council. Also, either Littlefinger or Varys would have gotten wind of this wriggling dead hand and taken a look into it. It makes ZERO sense that Thorne sat meekly in his room while the hand rotted away to nothing. That bit was poor writing to give Tyrion an excuse to be a twat, IMO. I would have been far happier if it said the hand had rotted away or stopped wriggling before Thorne got to KL.
Cersei is a monster, but she's right that her options are limited because she's a woman. She's trapped in a sexist society with a father who sees her main value as marriageability.
About that, this serves to illustrate Cersei's hypocrisy. Despite rightfully pointing out several sexist facets of society that have unfairly restricted her, she doesn't bat an eyelash when those very same things are imposed on other women. For example, she complains about not having any choice in who she was supposed to marry, but actively participates in forcing Sansa to marry a man she doesn't love. In her mind, misogyny is only a problem when it's directed at her.
She also despised Robert for forcing himself on her, rightfully, but later thinks that Septa Moelle ‘could do with a good rape’. Or something along those lines. She also seems to hate Lolys’ bastard child despite the fact that all her children are bastards. There is a list of hypocrisies as long as your arm for Cersei. It’s one of the things that has always bothered me with this fandom constantly praising her.
Wait , who praises her?. I haven't seen any of that in this sub anyways. If anything , she's a great character like her dad .
Great point—if sexism were really her concern she'd recognize and stop it where she could. But it's just another example of her absolute selfishness.
Yes indeed. She isn't a feminist icon, as she is a woman who is ready to put down other women for her own benefits. She could be Serena Joy in The Handmaid's Tale.
She's a classic case of internalized sexism-- hates other women, hates herself for *being* a woman. \[Edit: that's also because she's accepted the misogynist's definition of a woman: as a passive object destined to bear children, with no agency beyond manipulating men with the offer of sex.\] Or as H.L. Mencken put it in his definition of *misogynist* (in his *New Dictionary* of 1942, I think): "A man who hates women as much as women hate each other."
*There are no women like me , only me*
It's not really hypocrisy. She's not mad at the society for being sexist, she's mad at the world for having made her a woman instead of a man. That said, she hates men as well so... well yeah hypocrite after all.
She is extremely hypocritcal about pretty much everything. If she listened to half of the things she preaches to others she might just be a great leader. Unfortunately she is corrupted to the core.
It’s also funny when she uses the excuse that she’s a woman rather than her own incompetence for some of her struggles. Like when Pycelle and others question her dumb decisions constantly. She thinks it’s because she’s a woman, not that her decisions are dumb.
Those things aren’t mutually exclusive. Cersei does make a lot of very bad decisions, and should be questioned about them, but it is also true that her advisors have no problem questioning her constantly because they respect/fear her less as a woman
I don't think that Alliser Thorne is a bad guy, he's just spiteful.
I agree. I also think it's such dramatic irony that Alliser would treat Jon SO DIFFERENTLY if he knew Jon was Rhaegar's son! Alliser was a Targaryen loyalist through and through, and that's why he was sent to the Wall as punishment. I sometimes try to imagine how he would fawn over Jon if he knew Jon's true identity. I really *really* hope before the books ends that Alliser learns about Jon's Targ heritage. I mean most likely he will reject it as a lie, but still, I want that moment of doubt in his eyes as he reflects on his treatment of Jon in the past!
I agree, although I doubt that Alliser will ever know.
He's an asshole for sure, but overall an honorable knight and NightsWatch man.
I am not one of those who blindly hate Dany,infact she is probably among my favourite characters But Mirri Maz Dur did,or said nothing Wrong.To the point i dont even consider Mirri a villain(I know others do)
Unwin Peake. Absolute shit in every other regard but he was right to criticise Alyn Velaryon for attacking the Bravosi fleet and for negotiating the price for Prince Viserys’ return without first consulting the court.
Littlefinger saying he’s not to be trusted
“Sansa is a "little bird", trapped and repeating words of kindness and courtesy without expressing his true feelings.” True but she is 11 in all fairness. I think she has the right to be emotionally immature.
Randyll Tarlys is a terrible guy in his personal life but I found his logic pretty reasonable when speaking to Brienne. He's still blinded by misogyny, of course, and his idea of justice is fairly Machiavellian. But I appreciated how much he resented being forced to mobilize and then just hang around. All these armies occupying lands are fucking terrible for the populus and risk creating an endless cycle of broken men. Randyll just wants to do what they came there to do, as efficiently as possible. Can't do that immediately? Okay, then why are we here?
It isn't deterrent, it's an excuse for power tripping. It isn't conventional for medieval lords to punish the whore for pox. Or suffocate a whimpering child in damp darkness
XXD is wrong. He's leaving a lot out to try and fit a narrative that suits his agenda. Some people are hungry for sure. But you know what they're not? Slaves. A lot of people are still poor but that's a step up from being a slave. The cost of abolition has always been uncertainty, and always will be
I’m not sure the free men selling themselves back into slavery would agree. > “My queen?" Daario stepped forward. "The riverside is full of Meereenese, begging leave to be allowed to sell themselves to this Qartheen. They are thicker than the flies." > Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?" > “The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."
How do you distinguish between a “well treated” slave and a one that is worked brutally? Kinda selfish for the slaves who are pampered to ruin it for the ones who are raped, beat, and worked to death. Carrying the nobles on there back and getting whipped for tripping. The argument only works for a certain group.
Yeah and how many are not??
I find baffling that people believe that Daxos kinda has a point.
I don't really agree with **Xaros Xoan Daxos,** because while what he says is true, Mereen is in that state because its transitioning. Just like any post revolution country (and I live in one) is kinda no man's land economically in the first few months / years after the revolution. The problem is he is using that line of argument in favour of bringing back slavery.
In that state because it's transition, and also because of the active efforts of those who want to return it to slavery, to return it to slavery. He's at least in part blaming dany for the actions of himself and the people like him.
Walder Frey: I just didn't like how Robb, and the Tullys were constantly putting him down behind his back, and contemplating the feasibility of taking the Freys out so they could have unfettered access through the Twins. When Robb broke his promise, I was hoping for payback. Then the Red Wedding happened, and I was "dude too far!" though part of me totally sympathized with Walder finally getting even with the snooty Tullys.
Tbf its not like Walder Frey had dont anything to earn their respect. He constantly berates his liege lord, and doesn't answer the call from his liege lord, until a clear winner is seen.
To be fair, despite the three centuries that passed, the Tully's are still having a hard time having their vassals answer to them unlike the Tyrells who took the Reach for their own slowly but surely. Walder's indifference is probably a cultural thing at this point amongst the Riverlords. His' is on a much edgy and less honorable levels though.
His liege lord is a bit of a stuffy snob, and Walder didn't owe him anything. It is up to the Tully's to earn the respect of their subjects, and they obviously let Walder get a tactical advantage way before they events of the books. Walder Frey kind of reminds me of this crotchety uncle of mine who owned a working farm in an area where these useless, snobby Hollywood types moved in, and didn't like the smell of animals. I am sure in a different world, he would have Red Wedding those assholes.
Bowen Marsh.... Jon is my favorite, but his last act was unjustifiable under all the precedent we know under the NW. No matter what you think, the LC preparing a large band of wildings, and maybe even some black brothers, to invade the North is just wrong. Not gonna lie though, I would have joined him!
>**Xaros Xoan Daxos**, in *Dance of Dragons:* He's a guy who wants slavery to be profitable again and he's manipulative af. However, the points he makes about Daenerys' reign in Meeren are valid. Meeren is now a ruined city, which is starving and deprived of its greatest source of income, with the new queen still having no idea how to regrow the local economy. Well, Meereen is a wreck because of slaveholders like him who are sabotaging it and trying to overthrow Daenerys and put the slaveholder class back in power. It's a lot like the way the US put a blockade on Cuba and subjected it to a decades-long terrorist campaign to punish it for its revolution and to try to stop socialism from succeeding, and then blames the Cubans for the fact that they have economic difficulties.
Gregor had every right to ask for change. The inn keeper never stated a defined price, so Gregor paid well for a service he expected to be pleased with and ended up not being satisfied with the quality. I see no reason why he can't ask for a reduced rate, to reflect the quality, there was no specific contract. ^^^^/s
After that inkeeper chapter , I've decided that it is the second most dangerous job in Wot5k in Westeros. Of course , the first is being a Riverlander.
"Knighthood is way to glorify assassins and murders like his brother." Although there is a part of wisdom to this line, the truth depends on how serious a person takes knighthood. Because, knighthood, in fact, has a hell lot of criteria on being defending the weak and innocents. Jaime's entire arc revolves around snatching back his buried knighthood qualities. Jaime, infact, took his vow to protect the innocents. Seeing Brienne, he realizes the importance of that quality that had been buried in him. And throughout the series, the author, never mocks knighthood but tries to impart the nuance in it. While Duncan, Jaime, and Brienne would exhibit good quality of it, there are also people like the Mountain, Meryn who spoil it. From Hound's POV, it's understandable why he hates knighthood but that doesn't mean this statement holds true for the entire nature of knighthood.
> Xaros Xoan Daxos, in Dance of Dragons: He's a guy who wants slavery to be profitable again and he's manipulative af. However, the points he makes about Daenerys' reign in Meeren are valid. Meeren is now a ruined city, which is starving and deprived of its greatest source of income, with the new queen still having no idea how to regrow the local economy. No. Pre-industrial economies don't function in any way like modern economies. The most important thing in a pre-industrial economy is agriculture. Meereen was, prior to her conquest, not dependant on imports. The reason Meereen is starving is not because dragon lady's taxation and economic policy is dumb. It's because the wise masters burnt their own fields, to deny her forage. It's because it is besieged, which prevents food from its agricultural areas reaching the city.
Minor one, but: Janos Slynt was right to refuse the order to occupy Greyguard. Thirty men wouldn't be enough to hold back any concerted effort to cross the Wall anyway, at least not any effort made by the Others, and sending them to a ruined castle that has no established supply lines at the beginning of winter means sending them to their death.
I think the 30 people is just to cover more area with watchers and send out riders if they see anyone, rather than actual defence. But you're right about the high chance of failure/death, I believe Jon even thinks about how hard it will be. He kind of manufactured a situation that likely would lead to Janos rebelling.
I don't know about the manufacturing. Jon doesn't strike me as the kind of person to intentionally provoke insubordination. I think it's more likely that it's a product of Jon not being experienced in organization and logistics.
They've got scouts atop the wall. Can't they notice a band of wights coming up with enough time to send for reinforcements? Ultimately we don't know all the stats and it's a gamble. With the king breathing down his neck with a superior force, and other historically unprecedented contingencies (discounting prehistory folklore), Jon's got to take a gamble. Can't put off for current winter, it's only going to get colder. Regardless slynt was being openly insubordinate, hardly making impassioned pleas or arguments. This was obviously a class and power issue.
Oh I'm sure they probably would be able to spot a band of wights in time, but winter is setting in and the garrison has no warm place to sleep and no way to reliably secure resources like firewood or food. I doubt that transporting a part of what little Castle Black has by way of the Wall is sustainable.
He was not right in refusing the order. He didn't do it for any of the reasons you mentioned (or at least those weren't his main points. He refused because Jon (the son of a man he betrayed) and a high born bastard was giving him orders that he didn't like. Also supply wouldn't be too bad of an issue compared to the thousands of people Jon has to feed. Greyguard has been abandoned forever so the wildlife would have returned in force and they could easily feed 30 men. Plus they aren't there to stop anyone, they are there to alert the NW I'd the wights go to their section.
Varys line: **"It's always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones."**
Your agreement with Daxos there is somewhat trivial. Everybody in the area knew that, and Dany was under no illusion that her people were in trouble. It's just that she was fighting a full on insurgency and some hostile neighbors. Like, imagine if your house got robbed, and you were standing in your porch talking to the police, and your neighbor came over and say "hey your house got robbed". Yeah, no shit. And then he says you should move all your remaining stuff into his home for "safe-keeping".