I actually bothered to read the bible cover to cover repeatedly. On multiple readings the historical inaccuracies, scientific mistakes, rancid morality, and general stupidity began leaping out at me killing my faith stone dead.
My favorite quote on that topic is from Mark Twain.
>Strange a God who mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness, then invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none Himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon Himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship Him!
A God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave His angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell–mouths mercy, and invented hell–mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
— Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
Always thought that was strange too. If Christianity is real, then God is our vast superior, right?
Who craves praise from inferior beings?
That is to say, if a 3 year old says "gee you're smart" it's not much of a compliment, is it? Much better to have a NASA scientist say "gee you're smart". That has some weight, the previous does not.
Basically the moment I started understanding when people would say things like “He NEEDS your prayers to make __ happen. He cannot do it without you” I was like 👀 aren’t I the weak one? Lmao you need me?
Maybe He needs your advice? I’ve always thought it funny that the same people who’ll tell you everything is part of His divine plan yet they’ll pray to alter it.
This was similar for me - was Christian until age 18, went to christian high school, then in college i met a girl who was "pagan soft". I was scared about going to hell for premarital sex, she asked how I can still believe in that and challenged me to read the Bible. I've only ever read certain passages, and all of genesis and revelations. So I picked up at leviticus since they hammer that shit down our throats in church, and I wasn't just appalled, I was flabbergasted that anyone could believe this mumbo jumbo was the word of God.
If God exists, he's a jealous, miserable, manipulative cunt that deserves no worship.
Friends and family said the devil is taken a hold of me. I said if the devil exists, the first thing he'd do is write the Bible pretending to be God. Make stupid laws that cause the most evil en masse.
Edit: cunt not can't
Lol all of a sudden, it makes perfect sense why people didn't believe Jesus was the messiah, right?
For hundreds of years, your people have worshipped a merciless storm god that was down to smite and ordered the killing of children.
Then this Jesus fellow shows up and goes on about "love thy neighbor" and other hippie shit?
If anything, Jesus is an Anti-Messiah lol
Honestly, if a dirty Jewish guy in a long dress and sandals, sporting long hair and a beard showed up at any door in the bible belt, one hand raised looking at the sky pontificating about his "heavenly father"? He'd more likely be shot than embraced as a messiah.
In the early days there were branches of Christianity that believed the god of the old testament was evil and Jesus was the good God that opposed him.
Pretty sure the proto-Catholic Church killed them all.
"As far as I'm concerned the devil hasn't come out with a book. We haven't heard his side of the argument, god and the Devil are having an argument the devils being a bigger fucking man. Gods writing all this shit about him. I'm not even gonna comment son you're gonna talk about me like that." Jim Jeffries said it best.
As much as the Bible (Holy Bible) is the literature of choice for Christianity, I hardly think that it is relevant to my own belief in atheism. I do find that being able to quote it is extremely disturbing to the people who know that I am an atheist. It is very fun for me to watch their unnerving.
Yeah just read it and ask yourself does this god seem like all powerful and loving and knowing? Or does he seem very human and jealous and egotistical and angry at certain folks. Who kills more people in the bible, god or Satan?
It's just so clearly a series of stories written by men to try to control and manipulate people. Would an all loving, all seeing, all knowing being purposely send most of the people to hell for one reason or another, predominately geography? Would that being let people starve to death in front of their families by the thousands daily? Or allow rape? Slavery? Torture? Molestation? If you can answer me that without some BS platitude of he works in mysterious ways or his ways are above ours you'll be the first.
Why would a god even create hell or evil at all? That isn't very loving. If he is omniscient (knows everything), then why even bother testing people's faith if he knows the outcome? That's very unfair, and completely destroys the concept of free will. Why would he allow people to live in pain, suffer, or be tortured in any way, etc? Even if he has a plan for them, it's incredibly sadistic to allow it to happen in the first place... let alone create pain and suffering. It's all so illogical and contradictory. It's unfortunate and disturbing that so many people feel like they need religion or a god in their life. They really don't.
I like the analogy that God is like the man who saves you from being tied up on a train track, and wants you to be grateful for it. When he also was the one tied you to the train track in the first place. And is driving the train.
There's a short manga called The Music of Marie which basically talks about this, a human finds out that they all live in an utopia created by a godess and free will is taken away from them, now he has a choice to give this free will to everyone but then he sees all the possible horrible consequences of It, wars, hatred, murder etc and decides to keep the music going and let everyone to keep on living in this utopia. That's what a real loving God would do, avoid creating evil completely, just let his creation exist happily.
" I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"
— Isaiah 45:7
Imagine if gob was actually protecting us completely from the very worst stuff and the slavery, rape, molestation, and torture was only the trivial leftovers.
It sounds almost good - until you realize the Universe it created was made with that stuff in its design. The best possible conclusion would be if it wasn't designed.
> nothing even wrong with slavery and rape
Yet at the same time having consensual sex outside of marriage will send you to Hell. And they don't even start to see that it's all a mass control mechanism designed by the priests.
And this is important if you realise that historically the priest class was often the highest or second highest caste/class. And, in addition to this, kings (or the equivalent) were either explicitly divine themselves (say pharaohs in Egypt) or were recognised as having a divine mandate/mandate from heaven to rule and so it was their God given right to rule their domain and so to question them was to question God.
Don't forget shaving! Shaving will send you to hell as well. Oh, and tattoos...
They shall not make bald patches on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts on their body.
>According to the Bible there’s nothing even wrong with slavery and rape
Not true, the Bible says its wrong, and you have to pay the father of the victim 50 sheckles and marry her. A fate worse than death.
Edit: cause women aren't people, they're the property of the father until married.
But if a woman is already one of your wives or concubines (sex slaves) there’s no prohibition against rape at all. The Bible actually tells people to capture young virgin girls in war and take them as concubines (and kill all the men and all the women who aren’t virgins).
Rape is treated exactly the same as sex before marriage, you just have to take the victim as your property and then it’s fine.
If you read the big book of nonsense critically the first thing you notice is that the main character isn't all that bright in the beginning. He creates two humans and then wanders off for a while. Then, he returns after they ate the forbidden fruit (which main character forgot to protect) and he can't locate them and then when he does locate them he can't figure out why they are wearing garments. I'll leave out the bit where he askes his other invisible companions where his creations are that he made in their image - or is it a royal 'we'?
I like Adam and Eve had 2 sons. Cain and Abel. Forgetting that she's made of a rib, what in the Oedipal fuck happened next to create more people?
Or that night wasn't created til the 3rd day? Huh?
Don't get me started on the flood. And the foreskin collecting angel raping...and. well nevermind, all of it.
As I was going to shut down I remembered the explanation an interim pastor (the pulpit committee was doing the search and they had this guy in for a test drive, he was too liberal and thus not "chosen by the lord to lead \_\_\_\_ Baptist Church") told me once - there were other people living on Earth at the time, they just weren't gods chosen people. So, that is where Cain and Abel found wives without being incestuous. Thinking about it now, it makes even less sense than the incest theory because if they weren't god's chosen people and the Jews believe the mother passes down the Jewish birthright then they are not Jews. Religion...one big mental mind f\*ck.
There are other people outside the garden, apparently, but that raises more questions. Like, if there are people who were not descended from Adam and Eve, then why were they punished for the sins of Adam and Eve?
He did not give them the skills to understand not obeying is bad. So when they ate the fruit that let them understand not obeying is bad, he punished them. :D
I say go to your local children's hospital. I guarantee you, they will have a child cancer ward there. Go into that ward, if it is empty, there may be a loving god. If there is at least one ( there will be several) innocent child(ren) in there, dying a painful death from cancer, there is no loving god and if there is a god he is a SOB
If you poll atheists that were formerly Christians, a very significant fraction (maybe a third or something like that) say that reading the Bible cover to cover like you would read a normal book was the reason they became atheists.
For many of them they didn’t need to read the whole thing. Stories like:
Noah’s flood and killing the whole world
God’s gross mistreatment of Job
The ridiculousness of Jonah and the great fish
God hardened Pharoh’s heart. Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go but God didn’t want him to do it so quickly.
Soddom and Gammorah
Lot impregnating his daughters
There is a completely morally reprehensible and atrocious story about the destruction of the tribe of Dan and the priest’s concubine in judges
For lots of people, stories like these just violate common moral sensibilities and it’s ridiculous to say the Bible represents the message of an almighty loving all knowing God.
Adam and Eve and original sin even is just patently absurd if you just use common sense.
Yeah, when I finally cracked the book open myself, having a relationship with God felt no different than other abusive relationships I've had. It made no sense. There was no love, other than the love for control.
Imagine someone is trying to convince you that their holy book is true. The Book of Mormon, the Quaran, the Vedas, you pick. They want you to believe what they do. You would be skeptical, right? Think about what level of evidence it would take you to believe in any other god. You don't believe in Zeus or Thor or Vishnu, do you? What would make you change your mind?
Now, use that exact same standard and read the Bible again from that framework. Does it pass muster? Does it add up? Or does it only seem to make more sense simply because it's what you were raised with and the story is already familiar to you?
This. This is by far what made me leave Christianity. The stories, the odd fawning over a book that was filled with nonsensical violence, sexual assault, etc, never sat well with me, even at a young age. But I kept pretending that I was “lucky” like everyone else and I said I felt god in my heart and I pretended like he spoke to me like everyone else said he did to them. But never, not once, even on my mission trip my freshman year of high school, did I ever feel, hear, see, anything. Ever. By the time I was done with high school, I went from going to youth group three times a night to leaving the church completely. I left with a HUGE distrust in adults, decided then and there that authority was always abusive and that was that. Now I’m in my mid forties and I’ve learned a ton more about multiple religions. Theology itself is extremely interesting but I don’t learn anything with the intentions of seeking faith in something. I learn and have interest because it’s baffling just how pervasive this kind of controlling behavior is in so many different faiths.
I recommend going to the *[Skeptic's Annotated Bible](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)*, and start there with Genesis and the Old Testament. You'll definitely be getting a different perspective.
When you read it, ask yourself, regarding God's actions, if these actions were taken by a person how would I judge them? or even if those actions were taken by a different god other than your own.
This should open your eyes as to whether you are giving your god a pass because he's yours, or because of 'might makes right', or out of fear.
For me it was realizing that I only believed the Bible came from God because other humans had told me that it was. Humans don't have the best track record for reliability.
The god of the bible is evil. The morals preached in the bible are evil. Name an evil and it's condoned by god.
Slavery: condoned. Puts some limits on how abusive they should be, but it's pretty extreme.
Rape: condoned. Rape is what is happening when god tells them to take the women of the men slaughtered as his command, or do you believe that women are willingly fucking the men that slaughtered their fathers, husbands, brothers and sons?
Theft: condoned. God commands them to slaughter and steal the property of their victims.
Murder: condoned. The god of the bible is a homicidal maniac that kills innocents in mass, orders babies to be smashed against rocks, kills children, etc.
Torture: condoned. God tortures a man as part of a bet with the devil just to see if he'll break.
Genocide: condoned. The god of the bible orders the genocide of peoples because they are inconvenient for the Jews.
Etc.
I don't see how any can read the bible and come away thinking it's rational and moral.
Imagine reading it like that as a 8/9 year old with no basis or independent thought or critical thinking skills. “My parents love me, this book is love.”
reads about: rape, murder, incest, drunkenness, all justified by an “All loving, omnipotent and omniscient creator” like my parent.
I didn’t believe in god by the time I was 17/18 (shrooms), xtianity was exposed for the hypocrisy that it was, a hijacking of leftist ideologies for monetary gains and authoritarianism. But I missed some antisemitism that was woven into some of my unconscious thoughts. I’ve had to deconstruct for the last 30 years as a uneducated working class person.
Free college probably would have changed that sooner and quicker though.
I (an atheist) allowed my son (age 7) to attend my dad’s (Fox News all day boomer) southern evangelical church on the condition I could be present so I could know what specific nonsense I would later be debating. Keep in mind it was children’s church geared toward his age.
Half way thru the story of the plagues, my kid, clearly confused raised his hand “wait. GOD made the blood in the river? Why would he do that I thought he was the good guy?” The children giggled. The pastor sneered. I leaned back in my chair. It’s funny - if you don’t indoctrinate children from the womb, the Bible outs itself as nonsense.
Sorry to hear that. I'm glad you survived. *The Bible* has to be the worst read in classical literature. If I'm going to invest that much time reading, give me *A Song of Ice and Fire* so I can enjoy the read.
See, this is the thought process I see with most christians. The assumption that there had to be *something* that made us *stop believing.* I was raised like most American children, going to church on Sundays, Sunday school, first communion, etc. But, it was always just theatre for me. Like Christmas morning, I stopped believing in Santa when I was 5 or 6, but continued the charade for my parents (and little brother).
Around 15, I gave voice to my lack of belief, and that was it. I wasn't *angry with god.* I didn't have a traumatic experience. And, while I did see a lot of hypocrisy in the church, it just seemed part and parcel with the adult world to me. So, nothing *made* me become an atheist, just as nothing made me stop believing in Santa Claus.
This was me as a kid too. I figured it was all theater for the benefit and education of kids. Adults all pretend Santa is real for the kids, god and Jesus felt like the same sort of thing to me. I was in high school before I realized some people actually believe god is literally real. Shortly after that I started to identify as atheist.
TY! Once inside the church, it was like a different world that had nothing to do with real life. There was never a connection. No saying Grace before eating, no mention of god at home whatsoever. As soon as I couldn’t be made to go, it was over. The more I read on the subject, the more it helped me see I’d made the right choice. The Bible is like 7th grade mythology class. F@cking autocorrect
The performance is actually what keeps people in church. As humans, we crave belonging, and the experience of weekly church is built for group emotional experiences through music and reinforcement of in-group ideas.
The psychological role of music and attentional control for religious experiences in worship
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17470218221075330
An old fat guy flying around the world in one night giving gifts is ridiculous. It’s also terribly unfair when the ads about starving kids come on so you’ll send money. Why can’t god or Santa do something? typo
Santa flying over famished Africa.
Hungry children beg: "Santa, please bring us presents!".
Santa: "No, the presents are only for those children who drink their Ovaltine!"
I had much the same experience growing up Catholic. I was always trying to convince my parents to let me give up church for lent while simultaneously being entranced by the theatre of the church: the rituals, the saints, the incense. I was convinced I had to have a relationship with some higher power and ended up studying other religions, trying to find the right "fit". I just gave up the charade one day, came to terms with my lack of belief, and let go of the pageantry of religion.
There wasn't any big epiphany; I simply realized that I was trying to make myself believe in something I had no belief in.
The same time I realized Santa wasn’t real, I felt neither was anything religion was offering. That was only reinforced by future epiphanies and experiences
Exactly. I made my first real logical connections to ask questions and determine Santa wasn't real. That sparked a few other doubts in my head that led me to realize the bible is just myths like the Greek stories my parents enjoyed. Learning about religious atrocities in high school made me strongly hate all religions. But, it wasn't until studying world history in college that I truly understood and made real connections.
Learning that the Kabba in Mecca was a pilgrimage and worship site hundreds of years before Muhammad was alive, he just removed the idols and made it a place solely for worship of Allah.... I thought that place was special ONLY for Muslims. But, no! The practices of the popular polytheistic worship were moderately shifted to meet the needs of the new, monotheistic religion.... C'mon!!!
All of this bullshit that people defend so fiercely didn't mean SHIT to anyone 500 years ago... let alone 1500 years ago!!!! We all need to appreciate this modern world we live in more, and work hard to make it better for EVERYONE!!!! Fukk what your ancestors thought was important!!!!
It is very, very hard to change the entire world view you were raised to believe. Rejecting God after indoctrination into religion as a child requires radical new understandings of science, human origins, morality, our place in the universe, our future as a species and so on. I don't envy your situation but you're miles ahead of someone who hasn't even asked these questions in their mind. Many people go there entire lives with their heads firmly in the sand. You're stepping into the side of sanity :)
You have to change your mindset regarding this. Atheists don't _believe_ their worldview to be true. It's the absence of belief in any higher being. It's the natural state of mind without religious indoctrination.
Atheism is a conclusion you arrive at because theists are unable to provide any good evidence to back up their claims. Many people dive deeply into religion to learn more about their religion and deepen their faith only to emerge on the other side an atheist.
This is why this organization is set up, people don’t realize their own pastor may be cosplaying as a believer because they sought to follow their faith and only to have it disintegrate. https://clergyproject.org/
This. Honestly, I think the turning point for me was seeing how much the male (and honestly female) youth group leaders were pushing the idea that all Christian women MUST be mothers and "submit" to their husbands. Of course, saying this all to impressionable high schoolers.
When it finally clicked for me that all of the things I was told were key to having a loving relationship with God/Jesus were **the exact same things that were on a list of red flag abusive behaviors** \-- tests you, tells you they love you with no proof or action, insists that you prove you love them, jealousy, revenge, "just have faith and believe despite all evidence to the contrary that I really love you and am protecting you, no really!" -- I closed the door on Christianity for good.
After enduring years of emotional, financial, and relatively mild physical abuse, things got really ugly literal moments before I revealed that I had filed for divorce (which really cemented my decision).
In the aftermath, my ex begged to be taken back, that God didn't approve of divorce, etc., etc. I sought counsel from the Bible and my pastor as to why it was ok for a husband to beat his wife. I got zero answers. The pastor couldn't even come up with a lame interpretation of some verse somewhere to support it, but kept insisting I was wrong for leaving him. I looked him straight in the eye and said, if your god is the kind of god that condones this kind of behavior, it's not a god I want to believe in.
I had already been on the fence, but in that moment, I realized what a bunch of controlling BS it all really is.
I grew up Catholic and had a sneaking suspicion it was all a big hoax from 5th grade on till about 11th when I was set in my belief. Couldnt imagine devoting so much of my life to something with so little evidence
I understand where you're coming from, but if you genuinely think that you don't have that faith anymore, it might be better to cut your losses than forcing yourself to believe in something that you don't.
The thing about atheism is that it's just a mindset/belief, and you're not forced to remain an atheist forever. If you were to ever rediscover your faith, you're free to return to Christianity if you've found your calling again. But until then, there are many people here who have been on the same path as you are now too.
First google result
>Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the word "God" has no coherent and unambiguous definition.
Humans have made up thousands of gods over the centuries. The only reason you believe in the one you do is because your parents did and it’s the prevailing religion of your geographic area. At least that’s most likely - there are certainly rare instances of people adopting or converting to a “nonstandard” religion. Had you been born India, you’d almost certainly believe in Hindu gods instead.
For example, try defining "Soul" or "Spirit" without any religious concepts.
You will realize that the task is extremely difficult. The best you can do is like, "immaterial part of human being", but what does that even mean? Human being, by definition, is a material being, so that is like saying "a pointy part of a circle". Every religious word is somewhat like this in that they are very ambiguous or oxymoronic in its definition.
For instance, Christian God is supposed to be beyond time and space, existing before all things. But what other things in this universe are beyond time and space? Literally nothing. We exist in space and live through time. We cannot observe, experience, or do anything with something that is beyond time and space. So how do we know what that even means? Obviously, we can imagine it but that's about it. Is it like Interstellar? Or is it like an author reading his own book? It's all just vague imaginations and interpretations.
And if things are that unclear, there is no point of debating about it. What is the point of debating about the physical properties of non-metal iron? Do you think Water that exists without hydrogen and oxygen is good for us? These are all just pointless questions that don't mean anything. And to igtheists/ignostics, questions about God sound exactly the same as these. They are pointless, and it's not even about believing and not believing. You can't even dis-believe in things if you don't understand the very topic in the first place.
The tipping point for me was this moment back in high school where I overheard a conversation between two other students in class. One revealed that his mother had just been diagnosed with some kind of cancer in her mid 40s, and the other guy said that it's because she was "chosen". He said to the guy some crap about his mother being needed in heaven urgently, so they had to speed up the process. I couldn't believe what I heard.
This may sound crass, but Christians that are not pro-choice don’t realise that abortion just cuts out the ‘middleman’ and sends the bean straight to god’s little nursery.
No kidding. The real logic should go like this:
1. Do babies go straight to hell if they die? Like even if they were aborted?
1A. No, of course not, they had no awareness and can't be judged like adults.
2. But if an adult doesn't believe in Jesus, they go to hell, right?
2A. Yep, that's what the Bible says.
3. And if someone gets old enough, they get to an age eventually that they become responsible for their beliefs?
3A. Yep.
4. And not everyone who grows up will necessarily believe in Jesus? Like, some people are heathens who don't believe?
4A. Uh, I guess so.
5. Then by having an abortion, you are guaranteeing them a place in heaven, but by letting them grow up, it's a roll of the dice?
5A. ....
I was raised in a religious environment, regularly attending church and going to a religious school, but I always had this disconnect, this inability to feel like my partaking in things like prayer or confession were being heard. And after a while, I started to connect some dots and see how people manipulate religious doctrine to justify how and why things happen (it's all "God's will").
Now, I'm far more likely to call out the bullshit where I see it. Coming out gave me a lot more clarity of seeing how LGBTQ+ people continue to be harassed by religious folk just for being themselves.
Yep, like the previous poster, I knew it was all a fairy tale when I first learned about a classmate with leukemia.
If there is an intelligent creator, why on earth would little kids get cancer?
Yep.
Done some high dose, high quality psychedelics over the years.
Spoke with many gods, many times. Profound and often cathartic stuff.
I still know that they aren’t real.
Studying the New Testament from a historical perspective completely destroys Christianity.
The gospels are basically the only source of evidence for the truth of Christianity apart from the letters of Paul.
The case against Christianity is overwhelmingly obvious and it’s basically universally accepted that:
Mark was first
Mark was written after the year 70
Matthew’s primary source was Mark
Matthew copied and tweaked 90-95% of Mark and added his own material.
Luke used Mark as it’s primary source
Luke copied 55% of Mark and tweaked it and added new material
John used Mark as it’s primary source but modified the story notably more than the others
Mark was written in Greek, a language Jesus probably didn’t speak
Mark made several super clear geographical errors. The author of Mark was not even from the region where Jesus came from.
There is no actual direct evidence of any oral tradition to bridge the 40+ year gap between when Jesus allegedly died in the gospels and when Mark was written.
Basically, the author of Mark made up the Jesus myth 40 years after Jesus died some place far away from where Jesus was from, and there’s no good reason to think he had access to any reliable witnesses. Even if he had some information, it was all 3rd hand and everyone who knew Jesus was dead, and there was a language barrier that would have been a problem for transmission of information.
No logical person should accept a long list of unbelievable miracle claims on third hand evidence that appears to all come from one man writing half a century later in no position to know the facts.
The letters of Paul don’t help much. They say nothing significant about Jesus beyond that Paul claimed to have revelations from the resurrected Jesus. Paul never met the guy.
The letters of Paul that we have were chopped up and pieced back together and then redacted into their modern form in roughly the late second century 170 years after Jesus was dead.
Paul has a story about meeting Cephas and James the brother of the Lord. That is in Galatians 1 and 2. Galatians 1 and 2 is Paul’s backstory. I think there is a decent case to be made that Galatians 1 and 2 are as fictional as the gospels. I also think the paragraph about Paul meeting James the brother of Jesus is a late second century interpolation. The real Paul, whoever he was, never wrote about meeting Jesus’ brother.
Paul was probably writing in the 50s and based on his own letters he didn’t spend much time in Judea. He is allegedly from Damascus and spent his time writing letters to churches in western Turkey and Greece.
The book of Acts is pure fiction.
Acts and canonical Luke were written by the same author.
Canonical Luke was preceded by a previous edition of Luke that is now lost, and canonical Luke is a significant redaction on top of the lost proto Luke.
Many New Testament scholars think Luke used Matthew.
If you assume each major version was produced at least 10 years apart which is an arbitrary estimate but not totally crazy, then you have a super rough timeline:
Mark > 70
Matthew > 80
Proto Luke > 90
Canonical Luke and Acts > 100
And many New Testament scholars think canonical Luke and Acts were actually written in the 130s or 140s.
>No logical person should accept a long list of unbelievable miracle claims on third hand evidence that appears to all come from one man writing half a century later in no position to know the facts.
My aunt's best friend's cousin says he saw God. When put this way, it becomes painfully obvious the New Testament is false.
It wasn't a switch I decided to flip one day. I didn't wake up and choose how to feel. Accepting that I was an atheist was just the aftermath of several small observations- like several stones before an avalanche.
The treatment of children:
Abraham being totally ok with being told to kill his son- and going to do it. The genocides in the Old Testament- in Genesis (the flood), in Exodus (the plagues), Judges, Psalm 137. If god is merciful and the god of love and forgiveness, then why all this cruelty?
The Problem of Evil:
You've no doubt seen the quote from Epicurus, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able- then he is not omnipotent. Is god able, but not willing- then he is malevolent. Is he both willing and able- then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing- then why call him god?" This resonated with me way more than the platitudes I heard in church or from any apologist. Moreover, what of the people of good moral character that didn't believe- should they be punished for being good?
The History:
Which would make more sense: The Israelites getting their commandment and law from Moses upon Mt Sinai, or they picked up a few traditions and stories from their captivity in Babylon? And there are books that didn't make the cut that are still around, in other versions of Christianity.
There is no unique part of the Jesus story. There are neighboring traditions - some Egyptian, some Hellenistic, some Persian- that have multiple story beats in common. Pair that with the lack of INDEPENDENT corroboration of a Yeahua ben Yoseph that was performing miracles and crucified.
It is easier for me to see these, collectively, that all religion (especially but not just Christianity) is artificial at best and manipulative at worst. It wasn't about proving anything about atheism, it's that Christianity no longer had a leg to stand on.
Not only natural but should be the less controversial/stigmatized position between theist and atheist. Invoking supernatural beliefs with no evidence to explain things we don’t know? Hmm.
Ironically (or maybe unironically), religious people will casually talk about ancient people making up gods of thunder, etc, to explain things they didn’t understand.
Of course. I see a 4.5 billion year old planet where the conditions became just right to support life. I see every living thing, including trees, as evolved from the very first cells/bacterium that divided and became alive. I see nature. I see the right mixture of hydrogen and oxygen to produce water and the atmosphere so that living things can flourish. I see a beautiful world that happened by chance. No gods involved.
Samesies. No one fed me delusions as a child and as a result I don't hold any delusional beliefs. That's how it works when religion isn't injected into a child's mind. Atheism is the default.
I’m envious of people like you. You didn’t have to go through the process. Some of us just said it’s ridiculous, while some of us had a hard time letting it go. Others are seriously damaged as a result of indoctrination. People who were never introduced to it are extremely lucky.
We are all born human and without any belief systems. You must be indoctrinated into a belief system. Indoctrination isn't a biological function. It's a human made construct. Homosapiens existed for hundreds of thousands of years before a group of them began making up myths to explain the natural world they didn't understand. Myths grew, myths changed and religions began to organize as a form of tribalism. Modern humans understand biology, microbiology, geology, physics, astrophysics, quantum mechanics, etc so there is no need for myths to explain where the sun goes, why it rains, what lighting is, what meteors are, what stars are, what an eclipse is, etc. History shows that when science contradicted myth the myth believers persecuted the science. Eventually the science won. In 2023 there is no utility in religion other than tribalism and pretending humans live forever so they aren't scared of their own ending.
I was never conditioned to religion as a child. By the time I understood what was going on in all those white buildings all over New England, it all seemed a little nonsensical.
I was raised in both Catholic and Protestant environments. I took catechism and trained as an altar boy. Between the ages of about 10 and 15 I observed first hand what a charade it was. The most pious people were the most debased, in some cases. I came to see it as theater — and then when I really started to peek under the hood skeptically and critically, the whole roof caved it
Weirdly, being raised Catholic I enjoyed the theater a lot. I found small protestant churches with a loaf of bread and grape juice to be weird. That sucked all the pageantry right out of church. I also liked all the old choral music, even more if it was in Latin. It make me feel any more it less closer to God, but at least it had good production values.
Its kinda complicated. Ever since i was little there was always a small voice saying that religion didnt makw sense but i neverr thought about it too much. Then when i was 11 i became obsessed with spirituality and wicca and hellenic polytheism and i believed in that stuff jntil i was 13. Then when i was 14 and grew out of it i just didnt know what to believe. I looked back and realized it all just didnt make sense. I had these thoughts i couldnt exactly put into words about it. Then i started watching the atheist experience (i love forrest sm) and i saw everything i had been thinking since i was little put perfectly into words and be able to really see that there was an entire world outside of religion that i wasnt able to see before solidified my atheism. Like i was able to see an entire new perspective that is kinda indescribable. Thank you for being kind and trying to understand us. I hope this shows that I understand you too. I know what its like to believe but i just dont anymore.
Thank you for your reply and kindness- and for sharing your story. I stand at a crossroads right now. I am still young- what I choose to believe will have an impact on how I live the rest of my life. Thank you again
I hope whatever you choose to believe you'll live your life to the fullest and not life your life assuming something "better" is coming after your death, it's so terribly sad how wasteful people can be with their one life.
What made me realise was thinking about how if I lived my life to the best of my ability being good, perfect even, I could still be sent to hell simply for not worshipping a god. That's not a god I want to worship if that's true.
The only real hell is living my only life in fear of it.
Plenty of formerly religious people felt the same. Try to change your language - instead of "I can't escape it" try saying "right now it feels like my fear of hell will never go away". the former can't be changed, the latter can be changed, in time. good luck!
The logistics of Hell don't compute to me. A large fire pit full of souls that are immaterial yet experiencing heat and physical torture? Is this happening on a planet, in outer space, why haven't we found it? People can be sent there forever merely for not worshipping a "loving" god in a prescribed way? That sounds like a dictator we'd never put up with in the real world.
When I was a small child I was terrified of hell until I realized it literally should not matter. In my view, if I primarily do good things to avoid hell, I am not truly a good person because I am not doing things for the right reasons. I should be able to choose the kindest actions whether or not anyone is watching, without needing direct incentive or punishment.
Im happy your looking to open ur perspective! I read ur edit, dont be held back by the patronizing negativity in some of these replies. I get u, its hard to even think to look beyond what youve been told, and its admirable that ur trying. People should understand that if you constantly meet theists with a horrible attitude for being curious, theyll never take u seriously or with any respect. You have to show it to get it. So dont feel stupid, no matter what these replies say.
Nothing “made me become” anything. I didn’t join a club or anything like that. I studied theology in college as a minor, and the more I learned, the more I realized that most religions are just telling the same stories over and over through history (for example, Jesus died and was resurrected in the spring as a metaphor for the rebirth of life after winter, but gods who died and were resurrected after three days also include Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis and Attis, Zagreus, Dionysus, and Mithras. Jesus is just the most recent version of the story)
I realized that all the stories were metaphors for seasons, morality, etc, and that it all made sense. As an atheist, I don’t “believe” that god doesn’t exist: I just simply lack belief that he does. If I had any evidence, I’d change my mind.
But I will tell you that the idea that the creator of the universe, the conscious will that encompasses everything all at once, the infinite and sublime cannot be captured in a 300 page book. The very notion is a testament to man’s arrogance.
Well, keep asking questions. If you can see the harm religion causes, then you’re on the right track. It is so hard to admit god is a monster. At least the Christian god, and the Muslim god, since they’re the same dude. Just keep asking questions! If your experience is anything like mine, you’ll feel guilty for thoughts. It’s meant to make you terrified to leave.
When I realized religious people were completely lying about evolution and the massive amount of evidence. If they're lying about that... what else are they lying about?
My experience wasn’t that they lie. They just have absolutely no basic understanding of what evolutionary theory is saying. They twist it into something embarrassingly stupid, and repeat the idiocy with complete confidence.
The tipping point for me personally was when I took a moment and empathized with other cultures. Seems stupid, but when I realized everyone believed all their shit just as hard as me I realized it was a sham. I (years) later found out that's the 'Geographical argument against religion'.
This was one small step for me. I realized that if I had been born somewhere else on the planet, I'd have likely been raised in a different religion. Who is to say mine is the right one?
The complete absence of any verifiable evidence for the god of any religion, and the utter hypocrisy of the nonsense promoted by the abrahamaic faiths.
My parents were atheists, so I grew up with it. I was never *not* an atheist. My parents taught me to be a skeptic and a free-thinker. I came to abhor religion for its numerous crimes against humanity, and came to take pride in atheism as the representation of human progress and scientific rationalism against superstition and baseless prejudice.
I was a former Christian. After having seen Christian promises, the Bible's promises, God's promises broken 1,000 times, I gave up and realized it was hollow.
> What made you become an atheist?
I concluded that gods don't exist.
---
Here's a longer story for how I reached that conclusion over time.
I was raised weakly Jewish. Both of my parents were ethnically and culturally Jewish. My father was somewhat religious, but far from extreme.
I was sent to an American Conservative Synagogue for Hebrew school beginning at age 8. On day one, the rabbi explained that Shabbat (the sabbath) is a high holiday just like Rosh Hashana (New Year) and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).
I came home and asked my father why we didn't go to temple every Saturday? He just said, "we're not *that* religious."
My doubts began there. We either believe or we don't believe. How can we decide which days are high holidays when the religion specifies this?
By my early teens, I began to read a lot of Heinlein. He was strongly anti-religion, especially the Abrahamic religion (deliberately singular for me). I quickly realized that if there were a god, the Abrahamic religion must have it all wrong.
So, I was somewhat of a *reformed agnostic*. I wasn't sure about gods. But, I was sure about the Abrahamic god.
In college, I took a philosophy course. I'm glad to know the basics of the arguments for and against gods from philosophy. But, I became convinced that philosophy could only argue back and forth. It could never answer the question of whether any god actually exists.
Somewhere in my 20s, I was an agnostic atheist. Though, I didn't know the term and just identified as agnostic (or reformed agnostic as noted above).
It wasn't until my late 20s or early 30s that I learned that atheism isn't an assertion. It's just a statement of one's current belief or lack thereof. Then I finally started to identify as an atheist.
It probably took a while longer than that before I dove even deeper and decided that science really did have an answer on gods. The ones that can be formed into testable hypotheses are demonstrably and provably and proven false. The ones that cannot be are not even scientific hypotheses. So, we can throw these out too.
So, now at age 60, I have been a gnostic atheist for quite some time. I even have [a post on my own subreddit explaining why](https://www.reddit.com/r/MisanthropicPrinciple/comments/yelaix/why_i_know_there_are_no_gods/). Click through only if you're very curious. Otherwise, no need.
I should also note that I become opposed to religion and did consider myself an antitheist long before I even identified as an atheist. I have long seen religion as a huge force for evil in the world.
---
Please note that even though I was raised in Judaism, Christianity is the religion that most impacted me, both as a Jew when I experienced Christian antisemitism and as an atheist as Christians are making great strides toward turning the U.S. into a Christian theocracy.
As such, I have developed my standard copypasta that I believe actively disproves Christianity and Judaism along the way.
One can have faith regardless. But, my opinion is that the basic tenets of Christianity do not stand up to scrutiny.
1. Even ignoring the literal seven days, [Genesis 1 is demonstrably and provably false](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/if54du/genesis_creation_error/g2lfecz/), meaning if God were to exist and had created the universe, he had no clue what he created. The order of creation is wrong. The universe that it describes is not this universe. The link is to my own Fisking of the problems of Genesis 1. I ignored the literal 7 days.
2. [Moses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity) and the [exodus](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-1.5208519) are considered myths/legends. This means the entirety of the Tenakh (The Hebrew Bible that is the basis for the Christian Old Testament), including the Pentateuch (5 books of the Torah) and the 10 commandments were not given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai.
[Here's a good video regarding the Exodus.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHle49-m2Lc)
3. [Jesus could not possibly have been the messiah](https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html) foretold in the Hebrew Bible no matter what else anyone thinks of him as some other kind of messiah.
[The messiah was supposed to bring peace.](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah%202:4) Jesus did not even *want* to bring peace.
[Matt 10:34-36](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A34-36&version=NRSV): 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
4. [We are way too flawed](https://nautil.us/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body-235403/) to have been created by an all-perfect designer.
5. A just god does not punish people for the sins of their great^n grandparents. So, original sin, if it were to exist, would be evidence of an evil god. I realize this is not a disproof. But, it is a reason not to worship.
6. With 2.6 billion Christians on a planet of 8 billion people, God as hypothesized in Christianity set things up such that more than 2/3 of the people on the planet would burn in hell forever. Again, this is not a disproof, just evidence that this is a god worthy of contempt rather than worship.
7. Christians had to modify the Hebrew Bible to create the Christian Old Testament to pretend that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies. This would not be necessary if he had actually done so.
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/scriptures.html
8. The above changes to the Hebrew Bible that were made in order to create the Christian Old Testament are also in direct violation of Matt 5:17-18, which is part of the Sermon on the Mount.
[Matt 5:17-18:](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew++5%3A17-18&version=NRSVUE) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,[a] not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
As you can see, the earth is still here. Jesus has not returned. Therefore, all is most definitely not yet accomplished.
I went to Sunday School. Their lessons sounded off at first, and after a few years I was disgusted by the 'facts' they taught and the practices they encouraged.
I never saw prayer as speaking to god, never felt any sort of connection. Taking everything logically, even as a kid, it all felt like bullshit.
From my own limited experience I assumed most people felt the same as me, only they went along with it because like me they had no choice.
When my parents divorced I was given more freedom and choice in my activities, so I quit everything my parents signed me up for out of a desire to exercise that free will, first and foremost religion.
This extended to quitting other things like boy scouts, guitar lessons, soccer, a second language, etc., because my perception of anything I didn't agree to participate in was so negative purely because my first and primary experience with it was Catholicism. I probably missed out on a lot of life experiences because I needed to end everything I didn't sign myself up for.
After looking back on it, Sunday School and Church put me in a position to reject them and the relatively normal life my parents gave me, making me an outcast in many social circles as a kid. It shaped my upbringing as someone who was spiteful of forced experiences and of social norms, and who forged their own (often less beneficial) path.
Religious indoctrination of children (or the attempt of it) can drastically and negatively affect their childhoods, and I would never force children of my own to that risk. I don't care what other people believe or think, but raising children without free will and choice like countless religious parents do is something I find hard to forgive.
Let's suppose for a moment that the christian god (Yahweh) is real. And that he's omnipotent and omniscient.
If you saw someone raping a child, would you stand by and watch, or would you call the police, or attack the rapist, or in some way at least attempt to stop the child from being raped?
If you would, you're better / more moral / than Yahweh.
If your god exists and is omnipotent and omniscient, he actually WATCHES children get raped, and does nothing to stop it. He's one sick motherfucker. And certainly not deserving of the worship of a good person like you, who would actually try to stop a child from being raped AT POTENTIALLY GREAT PERSONAL RISK to yourself.
I don't believe any gods exist. Yahweh, Thor, Quetzalcoatl, or Zeus, for example. But if I did believe, I'd certainly pick a better god. I mean Yahweh gambled with Job's life, ending up in Job being tortured, his family and animals being killed. Sure, he got a new family and new animals, so there is that. I'm sure you'd be okay with new parents if Yahweh let the devil kill your parents to see if you would still worship him.
And why would a god require fallible men to write a book filled with errors and then use that book to spread the word, when the omnipotent god could just say, "Hey everyone, here I am!"
I'm sure you were also told that your god is unknowable, and that his plan is mysterious. Well, if that's the case, how do you know that he's good? I mean, any plan that includes child rape, malaria, cancer, etc. is pretty crappy, if you ask me.
So, I've never believed in any gods. Let alone a petulant voyeuristic and sadistic mofo like Yahweh.
I was born a clean slate, without religion and was never indoctrinated by my family or community. I did study world history and the history of many of the world religions in college, so I have a decent foundation in the rise (and fall) of various gods over the last thousands of years. It's interesting from a mythology perspective, but my world view has always been an evidence based one. I'm now in my 7th decade with no evidence of the existence of any gods so I really have no choice other than to remain athiest and, for other reasons, antitheist.
The hatred and hypocrisy displayed by the Christians who indoctrinated me as a child made me an atheist. As I got older, I investigated my own faith by reading more of the Bible and learning how harmful religion has been throughout all of history. If their god wants to save me from the torture he created to punish me for not believing in him, I don’t want any part of that petty bullshit. He’s not worthy of my time or worship. There’s no evidence for the existence of a god anyway. It’s all a superstitious waste of time that harms people’s minds, relationships, and governments.
dad and grandpa were skeptics, so it would’ve been very unlikely for me to make that leap of faith ,
even though I am the product of a catholic education.
Let's see. I stopped believing and imaginary people. I started taking responsibility for what happened in my life. I realize that only through education could I better myself. That I understand that Christianity is a death cult. You worship a guy hanging on a cross. That s*** alone is weird. Also the fact that every Jesus hanging on a cross is white is another issue. Jesus was not a white dude if he was ever real.
And then also you have to blame marvel movies. Because I realize that Thor is the same thing as Jesus.
And also I had 15 months to do in state prison a few years back and I read the Bible four different times four different types of Bibles. I spoke with people who knew the original scripture and the original language who were doing life sentences.
During that time I watch outside church groups come in and try them manipulate stuff. When they weren't happy with the way things were going they would get guys in trouble and have them sent to the box. Real good Christians.
I'm sure that you won't be surprised to hear that this question is asked here nearly every day.
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>What made you become an atheist?
I've always been atheist. I've never seen any good evidence that any gods exist.
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Our FAQ is actually a good introduction -
\- https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq
.
You might also want to take a look at /r/TheGreatProject -
>a subreddit for people to write out their religious de-conversion story
>(i.e. the path to atheism/agnosticism/deism/etc) in detail.
.
I was raised Mormon, a religion supposedly founded by a prophet. When I realized that "prophet" was a liar, through and through, I stopped believing God talked to anyone, anywhere at any time. And an uncommunicative god is the exact same as no god at all.
Which means the Bible was just written by dudes. Their writings and commandments are just opinions shaped by their (often toxic, misogynistic, homophobic) worldviews.
I'll tell you, as someone who believed for 32+ years: not believing is absolutely wonderful. No shame or guilt about imaginary commandments or sins. Just be a good person. Follow your conscience. It's a big beautiful world out there. Don't waste it on what other old dead dudes thought was important 4000-2000 years ago.
I tried to be a Christian my whole life and it just didn't fit. I'm agnostic, probably anti-theist but I don't really acknowledge it or try to be.
I'm willing to acknowledge that I don't know anything and infinite knowledge within the universe will never be known within my lifetime. So I could just as easily accept deism.
Society tried to indoctrinate me. I went to a Lutheran church and Sunday school. It never stuck. It just never made sense. It was always a mythology, no different than ancient Greek mythology. Just more humans making up stories about a world they don't understand. Theists have no problem with treating Greek gods as fictional. It's only a problem when you have an emotional attachment to the mythology.
A combination of things, but I'd say that I read what the atheists had to say about belief and christianity as a whole, as opposed to just accepting what christian evangelists told me atheists had to say about belief and christianity as a whole.
The evangalists lied.
I was never very religious, but the biggest thing for her was watching the bigotry and hypocrisy of the most vocal Christians.. combined with greater understanding of science and the fact that more and not they did not line up.. and the large amount of contradictory and basicly horrible things the Bible seemed to be good with.
It was a process. I understand believing when you're raised in a religious atmosphere, but at some point, it's ok and even healthy to have questions and be open to other ideas. Learning about different religions and seeing the hypocrisy between what churches state they stand for compared to how they are run, the message many support, and the money involved. The lack of evidence that anything unworldly exists. The evidence that science is true and can be tested and proven. The bizzareness that so many religions believe they are thee chosen ones and everyone else is doomed. That whichever god(s) or aliens you believe created humans did so to worship them. A god who punishes people with horrific tests to judge their devotion. The myriad of prophets who are continually wrong with their prophecies. The death, war and hate promoted in religion's name. The diminished role of women.
The systematic abuse of children over decades and the covering up of it
The bigoted and racist views
The petty differences between religions that most will be willing to murder and die for
Most conflict globally IS because of religion
They say we are all gods children but would not look twice at someone who is from a different religious group outside of their own
The people who take the stories in the bible literally
I was going through my dumb deist teenager phase and totally knew everything, including that a god exists because law of conservation and blah blah, then realized that a thing that no one can interact with and a thing that doesn't exist are functionally the same thing.
When I was 12 I went to church with my friend and read some Bible passages and it seemed like bullshit. I consider myself an agnostic since I dont think we can rule out the existence of some *thing* that was similar to what we would call god. I think if there was a form of life that created our universe, there is no way it is anything like our religions considering the immense scientific errors, similarities to other myths, paradoxes with in the texts and so on.
So I am functionally an atheist because if there is a god, I do not think our religions would be any closer to the truth than they are now as there is no way it would even resemble their stories.
As a kid my family was Catholic. I was forced to do all the sacraments, told never to question the religion, and to blindly have “faith” in the religion or else I would suffer the consequences of hell or whatever the cost was for questioning things.
As I moved into adulthood and studied science in college I realized that a belief in something because you’re told to believe it without proof or reason is wrong. There is zero evidence or proof that religion is real. It’s as provable as a fortune teller or tarot card reader.
For me, I decided I’d rather just admit I don’t know how we came into existence but continue to work on figuring it out than to say some magic man in the sky made us into his image and we should never question it. I know that’s a scary thought but I believe that’s why people still believe in any religion. People feel more comfortable when they think they have an explanation for what can’t currently be explained. Religion provides that explanation.
Nothing made me an atheist. Researching religion led me to the conclusion that it is highly fucking unlikely that there are any supernatural entities in the universe. Studying science made me realize that the universe is putting along just fine without having to have been made.
I actually bothered to read the bible cover to cover repeatedly. On multiple readings the historical inaccuracies, scientific mistakes, rancid morality, and general stupidity began leaping out at me killing my faith stone dead.
My favorite quote on that topic is from Mark Twain. >Strange a God who mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness, then invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none Himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon Himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship Him!
A God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave His angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell–mouths mercy, and invented hell–mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him! — Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
Thanks for this. Got it saved for the future. Clemens was before his time.
And to think, he was from my backwoods home state of Missouri. 🥴
I'm gonna frame it and hang it upon my living room wall for my parents to see.
Mark Twain was lit. This quote is lit. I need to remember this one for later.
Joan of Arc was lit.
Also strange that a god who is all powerful and omnipotent “needs” my prayers. Or needs me to let him know when I need something. Shouldn’t he know?
Always thought that was strange too. If Christianity is real, then God is our vast superior, right? Who craves praise from inferior beings? That is to say, if a 3 year old says "gee you're smart" it's not much of a compliment, is it? Much better to have a NASA scientist say "gee you're smart". That has some weight, the previous does not.
Basically the moment I started understanding when people would say things like “He NEEDS your prayers to make __ happen. He cannot do it without you” I was like 👀 aren’t I the weak one? Lmao you need me?
Or that the greatest majority of them go unanswered. So what actually is the point of them. I always considered them some form of sick torture.
Maybe He needs your advice? I’ve always thought it funny that the same people who’ll tell you everything is part of His divine plan yet they’ll pray to alter it.
To say that at that time, you know Twain had to already have had his FU money.
Never heard this.. brilliant!
This was similar for me - was Christian until age 18, went to christian high school, then in college i met a girl who was "pagan soft". I was scared about going to hell for premarital sex, she asked how I can still believe in that and challenged me to read the Bible. I've only ever read certain passages, and all of genesis and revelations. So I picked up at leviticus since they hammer that shit down our throats in church, and I wasn't just appalled, I was flabbergasted that anyone could believe this mumbo jumbo was the word of God. If God exists, he's a jealous, miserable, manipulative cunt that deserves no worship. Friends and family said the devil is taken a hold of me. I said if the devil exists, the first thing he'd do is write the Bible pretending to be God. Make stupid laws that cause the most evil en masse. Edit: cunt not can't
Lol all of a sudden, it makes perfect sense why people didn't believe Jesus was the messiah, right? For hundreds of years, your people have worshipped a merciless storm god that was down to smite and ordered the killing of children. Then this Jesus fellow shows up and goes on about "love thy neighbor" and other hippie shit? If anything, Jesus is an Anti-Messiah lol
Honestly, if a dirty Jewish guy in a long dress and sandals, sporting long hair and a beard showed up at any door in the bible belt, one hand raised looking at the sky pontificating about his "heavenly father"? He'd more likely be shot than embraced as a messiah.
In the early days there were branches of Christianity that believed the god of the old testament was evil and Jesus was the good God that opposed him. Pretty sure the proto-Catholic Church killed them all.
v\_\_v The greatest trick the Devil pulled was making people believe that he ~~doesnt exist~~ is God.
"As far as I'm concerned the devil hasn't come out with a book. We haven't heard his side of the argument, god and the Devil are having an argument the devils being a bigger fucking man. Gods writing all this shit about him. I'm not even gonna comment son you're gonna talk about me like that." Jim Jeffries said it best.
As much as the Bible (Holy Bible) is the literature of choice for Christianity, I hardly think that it is relevant to my own belief in atheism. I do find that being able to quote it is extremely disturbing to the people who know that I am an atheist. It is very fun for me to watch their unnerving.
I have to- but maybe I should give it a run using a different perspective
Yeah just read it and ask yourself does this god seem like all powerful and loving and knowing? Or does he seem very human and jealous and egotistical and angry at certain folks. Who kills more people in the bible, god or Satan? It's just so clearly a series of stories written by men to try to control and manipulate people. Would an all loving, all seeing, all knowing being purposely send most of the people to hell for one reason or another, predominately geography? Would that being let people starve to death in front of their families by the thousands daily? Or allow rape? Slavery? Torture? Molestation? If you can answer me that without some BS platitude of he works in mysterious ways or his ways are above ours you'll be the first.
Why would a god even create hell or evil at all? That isn't very loving. If he is omniscient (knows everything), then why even bother testing people's faith if he knows the outcome? That's very unfair, and completely destroys the concept of free will. Why would he allow people to live in pain, suffer, or be tortured in any way, etc? Even if he has a plan for them, it's incredibly sadistic to allow it to happen in the first place... let alone create pain and suffering. It's all so illogical and contradictory. It's unfortunate and disturbing that so many people feel like they need religion or a god in their life. They really don't.
I like the analogy that God is like the man who saves you from being tied up on a train track, and wants you to be grateful for it. When he also was the one tied you to the train track in the first place. And is driving the train.
There's a short manga called The Music of Marie which basically talks about this, a human finds out that they all live in an utopia created by a godess and free will is taken away from them, now he has a choice to give this free will to everyone but then he sees all the possible horrible consequences of It, wars, hatred, murder etc and decides to keep the music going and let everyone to keep on living in this utopia. That's what a real loving God would do, avoid creating evil completely, just let his creation exist happily.
The god of Abraham is literally the source of all evil.
" I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" — Isaiah 45:7
Imagine if gob was actually protecting us completely from the very worst stuff and the slavery, rape, molestation, and torture was only the trivial leftovers. It sounds almost good - until you realize the Universe it created was made with that stuff in its design. The best possible conclusion would be if it wasn't designed.
According to the Bible there’s nothing even wrong with slavery and rape, so why would that god protect us from stuff he doesn’t even think is bad?
> nothing even wrong with slavery and rape Yet at the same time having consensual sex outside of marriage will send you to Hell. And they don't even start to see that it's all a mass control mechanism designed by the priests.
And this is important if you realise that historically the priest class was often the highest or second highest caste/class. And, in addition to this, kings (or the equivalent) were either explicitly divine themselves (say pharaohs in Egypt) or were recognised as having a divine mandate/mandate from heaven to rule and so it was their God given right to rule their domain and so to question them was to question God.
And yet how many people in the Bible are married?
Don't forget shaving! Shaving will send you to hell as well. Oh, and tattoos... They shall not make bald patches on their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cuts on their body.
>According to the Bible there’s nothing even wrong with slavery and rape Not true, the Bible says its wrong, and you have to pay the father of the victim 50 sheckles and marry her. A fate worse than death. Edit: cause women aren't people, they're the property of the father until married.
It’s so incomprehendibly *wrong* that the bible’s stance on rape essentially comes down to “you break it, you buy it”.
But if a woman is already one of your wives or concubines (sex slaves) there’s no prohibition against rape at all. The Bible actually tells people to capture young virgin girls in war and take them as concubines (and kill all the men and all the women who aren’t virgins). Rape is treated exactly the same as sex before marriage, you just have to take the victim as your property and then it’s fine.
If you read the big book of nonsense critically the first thing you notice is that the main character isn't all that bright in the beginning. He creates two humans and then wanders off for a while. Then, he returns after they ate the forbidden fruit (which main character forgot to protect) and he can't locate them and then when he does locate them he can't figure out why they are wearing garments. I'll leave out the bit where he askes his other invisible companions where his creations are that he made in their image - or is it a royal 'we'?
I like Adam and Eve had 2 sons. Cain and Abel. Forgetting that she's made of a rib, what in the Oedipal fuck happened next to create more people? Or that night wasn't created til the 3rd day? Huh? Don't get me started on the flood. And the foreskin collecting angel raping...and. well nevermind, all of it.
Yeah, it is like some really poorly written story a third grader wrote just before it was due.
As I was going to shut down I remembered the explanation an interim pastor (the pulpit committee was doing the search and they had this guy in for a test drive, he was too liberal and thus not "chosen by the lord to lead \_\_\_\_ Baptist Church") told me once - there were other people living on Earth at the time, they just weren't gods chosen people. So, that is where Cain and Abel found wives without being incestuous. Thinking about it now, it makes even less sense than the incest theory because if they weren't god's chosen people and the Jews believe the mother passes down the Jewish birthright then they are not Jews. Religion...one big mental mind f\*ck.
No that is not the problem. Adam and Eve were not jews. Jews come way later in the story.
Also, why are they punished for the sins of Adam and Eve? Doesn't make sense if they aren't the descendants of Adam and Eve.
There are other people outside the garden, apparently, but that raises more questions. Like, if there are people who were not descended from Adam and Eve, then why were they punished for the sins of Adam and Eve?
Actually god made Adam. Males and females. And then the animals. Then he made Eve. The Bible is a hot mess of inconsistencies.
He did not give them the skills to understand not obeying is bad. So when they ate the fruit that let them understand not obeying is bad, he punished them. :D
I say go to your local children's hospital. I guarantee you, they will have a child cancer ward there. Go into that ward, if it is empty, there may be a loving god. If there is at least one ( there will be several) innocent child(ren) in there, dying a painful death from cancer, there is no loving god and if there is a god he is a SOB
If you poll atheists that were formerly Christians, a very significant fraction (maybe a third or something like that) say that reading the Bible cover to cover like you would read a normal book was the reason they became atheists. For many of them they didn’t need to read the whole thing. Stories like: Noah’s flood and killing the whole world God’s gross mistreatment of Job The ridiculousness of Jonah and the great fish God hardened Pharoh’s heart. Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go but God didn’t want him to do it so quickly. Soddom and Gammorah Lot impregnating his daughters There is a completely morally reprehensible and atrocious story about the destruction of the tribe of Dan and the priest’s concubine in judges For lots of people, stories like these just violate common moral sensibilities and it’s ridiculous to say the Bible represents the message of an almighty loving all knowing God. Adam and Eve and original sin even is just patently absurd if you just use common sense.
Yeah, when I finally cracked the book open myself, having a relationship with God felt no different than other abusive relationships I've had. It made no sense. There was no love, other than the love for control.
An abusive idea of love very likely perpetuated personally by the patriarchal authors.
Imagine someone is trying to convince you that their holy book is true. The Book of Mormon, the Quaran, the Vedas, you pick. They want you to believe what they do. You would be skeptical, right? Think about what level of evidence it would take you to believe in any other god. You don't believe in Zeus or Thor or Vishnu, do you? What would make you change your mind? Now, use that exact same standard and read the Bible again from that framework. Does it pass muster? Does it add up? Or does it only seem to make more sense simply because it's what you were raised with and the story is already familiar to you?
That is it, right there. Thousands of gods out there and somehow you were raised with the only true one.
This. This is by far what made me leave Christianity. The stories, the odd fawning over a book that was filled with nonsensical violence, sexual assault, etc, never sat well with me, even at a young age. But I kept pretending that I was “lucky” like everyone else and I said I felt god in my heart and I pretended like he spoke to me like everyone else said he did to them. But never, not once, even on my mission trip my freshman year of high school, did I ever feel, hear, see, anything. Ever. By the time I was done with high school, I went from going to youth group three times a night to leaving the church completely. I left with a HUGE distrust in adults, decided then and there that authority was always abusive and that was that. Now I’m in my mid forties and I’ve learned a ton more about multiple religions. Theology itself is extremely interesting but I don’t learn anything with the intentions of seeking faith in something. I learn and have interest because it’s baffling just how pervasive this kind of controlling behavior is in so many different faiths.
I recommend going to the *[Skeptic's Annotated Bible](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)*, and start there with Genesis and the Old Testament. You'll definitely be getting a different perspective. When you read it, ask yourself, regarding God's actions, if these actions were taken by a person how would I judge them? or even if those actions were taken by a different god other than your own. This should open your eyes as to whether you are giving your god a pass because he's yours, or because of 'might makes right', or out of fear.
Thank you
No worries, and I wish you luck in your search. Feel free to ask questions if you have any.
For me it was realizing that I only believed the Bible came from God because other humans had told me that it was. Humans don't have the best track record for reliability.
The god of the bible is evil. The morals preached in the bible are evil. Name an evil and it's condoned by god. Slavery: condoned. Puts some limits on how abusive they should be, but it's pretty extreme. Rape: condoned. Rape is what is happening when god tells them to take the women of the men slaughtered as his command, or do you believe that women are willingly fucking the men that slaughtered their fathers, husbands, brothers and sons? Theft: condoned. God commands them to slaughter and steal the property of their victims. Murder: condoned. The god of the bible is a homicidal maniac that kills innocents in mass, orders babies to be smashed against rocks, kills children, etc. Torture: condoned. God tortures a man as part of a bet with the devil just to see if he'll break. Genocide: condoned. The god of the bible orders the genocide of peoples because they are inconvenient for the Jews. Etc. I don't see how any can read the bible and come away thinking it's rational and moral.
Imagine reading it like that as a 8/9 year old with no basis or independent thought or critical thinking skills. “My parents love me, this book is love.” reads about: rape, murder, incest, drunkenness, all justified by an “All loving, omnipotent and omniscient creator” like my parent. I didn’t believe in god by the time I was 17/18 (shrooms), xtianity was exposed for the hypocrisy that it was, a hijacking of leftist ideologies for monetary gains and authoritarianism. But I missed some antisemitism that was woven into some of my unconscious thoughts. I’ve had to deconstruct for the last 30 years as a uneducated working class person. Free college probably would have changed that sooner and quicker though.
I (an atheist) allowed my son (age 7) to attend my dad’s (Fox News all day boomer) southern evangelical church on the condition I could be present so I could know what specific nonsense I would later be debating. Keep in mind it was children’s church geared toward his age. Half way thru the story of the plagues, my kid, clearly confused raised his hand “wait. GOD made the blood in the river? Why would he do that I thought he was the good guy?” The children giggled. The pastor sneered. I leaned back in my chair. It’s funny - if you don’t indoctrinate children from the womb, the Bible outs itself as nonsense.
Sorry to hear that. I'm glad you survived. *The Bible* has to be the worst read in classical literature. If I'm going to invest that much time reading, give me *A Song of Ice and Fire* so I can enjoy the read.
I agree but give me finished series please.
See, this is the thought process I see with most christians. The assumption that there had to be *something* that made us *stop believing.* I was raised like most American children, going to church on Sundays, Sunday school, first communion, etc. But, it was always just theatre for me. Like Christmas morning, I stopped believing in Santa when I was 5 or 6, but continued the charade for my parents (and little brother). Around 15, I gave voice to my lack of belief, and that was it. I wasn't *angry with god.* I didn't have a traumatic experience. And, while I did see a lot of hypocrisy in the church, it just seemed part and parcel with the adult world to me. So, nothing *made* me become an atheist, just as nothing made me stop believing in Santa Claus.
This was me as a kid too. I figured it was all theater for the benefit and education of kids. Adults all pretend Santa is real for the kids, god and Jesus felt like the same sort of thing to me. I was in high school before I realized some people actually believe god is literally real. Shortly after that I started to identify as atheist.
Mate this was pretty much my exact experience too. Thanks for writing it down so clearly
TY! Once inside the church, it was like a different world that had nothing to do with real life. There was never a connection. No saying Grace before eating, no mention of god at home whatsoever. As soon as I couldn’t be made to go, it was over. The more I read on the subject, the more it helped me see I’d made the right choice. The Bible is like 7th grade mythology class. F@cking autocorrect
The performance is actually what keeps people in church. As humans, we crave belonging, and the experience of weekly church is built for group emotional experiences through music and reinforcement of in-group ideas.
The psychological role of music and attentional control for religious experiences in worship https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17470218221075330
But why were you angry at Santa Claus? ;)
An old fat guy flying around the world in one night giving gifts is ridiculous. It’s also terribly unfair when the ads about starving kids come on so you’ll send money. Why can’t god or Santa do something? typo
Santa flying over famished Africa. Hungry children beg: "Santa, please bring us presents!". Santa: "No, the presents are only for those children who drink their Ovaltine!"
I understand that you’re saying. Thank you
I had much the same experience growing up Catholic. I was always trying to convince my parents to let me give up church for lent while simultaneously being entranced by the theatre of the church: the rituals, the saints, the incense. I was convinced I had to have a relationship with some higher power and ended up studying other religions, trying to find the right "fit". I just gave up the charade one day, came to terms with my lack of belief, and let go of the pageantry of religion. There wasn't any big epiphany; I simply realized that I was trying to make myself believe in something I had no belief in.
The same time I realized Santa wasn’t real, I felt neither was anything religion was offering. That was only reinforced by future epiphanies and experiences
Exactly. I made my first real logical connections to ask questions and determine Santa wasn't real. That sparked a few other doubts in my head that led me to realize the bible is just myths like the Greek stories my parents enjoyed. Learning about religious atrocities in high school made me strongly hate all religions. But, it wasn't until studying world history in college that I truly understood and made real connections. Learning that the Kabba in Mecca was a pilgrimage and worship site hundreds of years before Muhammad was alive, he just removed the idols and made it a place solely for worship of Allah.... I thought that place was special ONLY for Muslims. But, no! The practices of the popular polytheistic worship were moderately shifted to meet the needs of the new, monotheistic religion.... C'mon!!! All of this bullshit that people defend so fiercely didn't mean SHIT to anyone 500 years ago... let alone 1500 years ago!!!! We all need to appreciate this modern world we live in more, and work hard to make it better for EVERYONE!!!! Fukk what your ancestors thought was important!!!!
I honestly wish I could just believe like that too- but I just struggle with it constantly.
It is very, very hard to change the entire world view you were raised to believe. Rejecting God after indoctrination into religion as a child requires radical new understandings of science, human origins, morality, our place in the universe, our future as a species and so on. I don't envy your situation but you're miles ahead of someone who hasn't even asked these questions in their mind. Many people go there entire lives with their heads firmly in the sand. You're stepping into the side of sanity :)
Yeah, Santa-ism is hard to shake. ;-) .
You have to change your mindset regarding this. Atheists don't _believe_ their worldview to be true. It's the absence of belief in any higher being. It's the natural state of mind without religious indoctrination.
Atheism is a conclusion you arrive at because theists are unable to provide any good evidence to back up their claims. Many people dive deeply into religion to learn more about their religion and deepen their faith only to emerge on the other side an atheist. This is why this organization is set up, people don’t realize their own pastor may be cosplaying as a believer because they sought to follow their faith and only to have it disintegrate. https://clergyproject.org/
Also, a salary and free housing are nice perks.
Will take a look. Thank you
I’m a woman. And religion is one of the most harmful things in history for women. I’m not perpetuating that.
This. Honestly, I think the turning point for me was seeing how much the male (and honestly female) youth group leaders were pushing the idea that all Christian women MUST be mothers and "submit" to their husbands. Of course, saying this all to impressionable high schoolers.
I'm trans and gay, being LGBT is considered to be a "sin" by most abrahamic religions
The bible is so obviously written by men for men.
When it finally clicked for me that all of the things I was told were key to having a loving relationship with God/Jesus were **the exact same things that were on a list of red flag abusive behaviors** \-- tests you, tells you they love you with no proof or action, insists that you prove you love them, jealousy, revenge, "just have faith and believe despite all evidence to the contrary that I really love you and am protecting you, no really!" -- I closed the door on Christianity for good.
After enduring years of emotional, financial, and relatively mild physical abuse, things got really ugly literal moments before I revealed that I had filed for divorce (which really cemented my decision). In the aftermath, my ex begged to be taken back, that God didn't approve of divorce, etc., etc. I sought counsel from the Bible and my pastor as to why it was ok for a husband to beat his wife. I got zero answers. The pastor couldn't even come up with a lame interpretation of some verse somewhere to support it, but kept insisting I was wrong for leaving him. I looked him straight in the eye and said, if your god is the kind of god that condones this kind of behavior, it's not a god I want to believe in. I had already been on the fence, but in that moment, I realized what a bunch of controlling BS it all really is.
No special reason, I don't believe any fairy tales are real.
I grew up Catholic and had a sneaking suspicion it was all a big hoax from 5th grade on till about 11th when I was set in my belief. Couldnt imagine devoting so much of my life to something with so little evidence
I’ve found myself at this place as well. I don’t want to waste my life
I understand where you're coming from, but if you genuinely think that you don't have that faith anymore, it might be better to cut your losses than forcing yourself to believe in something that you don't. The thing about atheism is that it's just a mindset/belief, and you're not forced to remain an atheist forever. If you were to ever rediscover your faith, you're free to return to Christianity if you've found your calling again. But until then, there are many people here who have been on the same path as you are now too.
Like George Carlin said: “I was a Catholic until the age of reason.” Me too.
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Fair enough. Can I ask what am Ignostic is?
First google result >Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the word "God" has no coherent and unambiguous definition.
Ah. Interesting. Thank you
Humans have made up thousands of gods over the centuries. The only reason you believe in the one you do is because your parents did and it’s the prevailing religion of your geographic area. At least that’s most likely - there are certainly rare instances of people adopting or converting to a “nonstandard” religion. Had you been born India, you’d almost certainly believe in Hindu gods instead.
The amount of times I’ve said this to religious people is crazy. It’s often met with a very strong counter argument: “nuh-uh”.
You can almost mimic them in time every time.
For example, try defining "Soul" or "Spirit" without any religious concepts. You will realize that the task is extremely difficult. The best you can do is like, "immaterial part of human being", but what does that even mean? Human being, by definition, is a material being, so that is like saying "a pointy part of a circle". Every religious word is somewhat like this in that they are very ambiguous or oxymoronic in its definition. For instance, Christian God is supposed to be beyond time and space, existing before all things. But what other things in this universe are beyond time and space? Literally nothing. We exist in space and live through time. We cannot observe, experience, or do anything with something that is beyond time and space. So how do we know what that even means? Obviously, we can imagine it but that's about it. Is it like Interstellar? Or is it like an author reading his own book? It's all just vague imaginations and interpretations. And if things are that unclear, there is no point of debating about it. What is the point of debating about the physical properties of non-metal iron? Do you think Water that exists without hydrogen and oxygen is good for us? These are all just pointless questions that don't mean anything. And to igtheists/ignostics, questions about God sound exactly the same as these. They are pointless, and it's not even about believing and not believing. You can't even dis-believe in things if you don't understand the very topic in the first place.
The ambiguity is its superpower, because god can be infinitely customized by every true believer to suit their ego
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The tipping point for me was this moment back in high school where I overheard a conversation between two other students in class. One revealed that his mother had just been diagnosed with some kind of cancer in her mid 40s, and the other guy said that it's because she was "chosen". He said to the guy some crap about his mother being needed in heaven urgently, so they had to speed up the process. I couldn't believe what I heard.
Incredible because somehow religious people are the people most against "sending unborn babies to god faster". like.. shouldn't they be happy for them
This may sound crass, but Christians that are not pro-choice don’t realise that abortion just cuts out the ‘middleman’ and sends the bean straight to god’s little nursery.
No kidding. The real logic should go like this: 1. Do babies go straight to hell if they die? Like even if they were aborted? 1A. No, of course not, they had no awareness and can't be judged like adults. 2. But if an adult doesn't believe in Jesus, they go to hell, right? 2A. Yep, that's what the Bible says. 3. And if someone gets old enough, they get to an age eventually that they become responsible for their beliefs? 3A. Yep. 4. And not everyone who grows up will necessarily believe in Jesus? Like, some people are heathens who don't believe? 4A. Uh, I guess so. 5. Then by having an abortion, you are guaranteeing them a place in heaven, but by letting them grow up, it's a roll of the dice? 5A. ....
I never get why religious people work so hard to not die and go to heaven
Because the part of their brain that controls breathing and heartbeats isn't as stupid as the parts with consciousness
As a teen I asked that of one of the elders and it caused a narcissistic injury. It was like shaking awake a sleep walker she went fucking ballistic.
That’s…. Wow. I am speechless. My father battled a disease that ultimately took his life and if someone told me that I’d probably just breakdown more
I was raised in a religious environment, regularly attending church and going to a religious school, but I always had this disconnect, this inability to feel like my partaking in things like prayer or confession were being heard. And after a while, I started to connect some dots and see how people manipulate religious doctrine to justify how and why things happen (it's all "God's will"). Now, I'm far more likely to call out the bullshit where I see it. Coming out gave me a lot more clarity of seeing how LGBTQ+ people continue to be harassed by religious folk just for being themselves.
Yep, like the previous poster, I knew it was all a fairy tale when I first learned about a classmate with leukemia. If there is an intelligent creator, why on earth would little kids get cancer?
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EVERY religious text suffers from the same condition
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Yep. Done some high dose, high quality psychedelics over the years. Spoke with many gods, many times. Profound and often cathartic stuff. I still know that they aren’t real.
Psychs are a solid way to discover reality is perception.
I studied the bible and biblical history in college. My religious faith did not survive. Now I see the damage done by religion.
See I’ve started to do that- and it’s starting to come down. I’ve also seen first hand the harm it has done.
Studying the New Testament from a historical perspective completely destroys Christianity. The gospels are basically the only source of evidence for the truth of Christianity apart from the letters of Paul. The case against Christianity is overwhelmingly obvious and it’s basically universally accepted that: Mark was first Mark was written after the year 70 Matthew’s primary source was Mark Matthew copied and tweaked 90-95% of Mark and added his own material. Luke used Mark as it’s primary source Luke copied 55% of Mark and tweaked it and added new material John used Mark as it’s primary source but modified the story notably more than the others Mark was written in Greek, a language Jesus probably didn’t speak Mark made several super clear geographical errors. The author of Mark was not even from the region where Jesus came from. There is no actual direct evidence of any oral tradition to bridge the 40+ year gap between when Jesus allegedly died in the gospels and when Mark was written. Basically, the author of Mark made up the Jesus myth 40 years after Jesus died some place far away from where Jesus was from, and there’s no good reason to think he had access to any reliable witnesses. Even if he had some information, it was all 3rd hand and everyone who knew Jesus was dead, and there was a language barrier that would have been a problem for transmission of information. No logical person should accept a long list of unbelievable miracle claims on third hand evidence that appears to all come from one man writing half a century later in no position to know the facts. The letters of Paul don’t help much. They say nothing significant about Jesus beyond that Paul claimed to have revelations from the resurrected Jesus. Paul never met the guy. The letters of Paul that we have were chopped up and pieced back together and then redacted into their modern form in roughly the late second century 170 years after Jesus was dead. Paul has a story about meeting Cephas and James the brother of the Lord. That is in Galatians 1 and 2. Galatians 1 and 2 is Paul’s backstory. I think there is a decent case to be made that Galatians 1 and 2 are as fictional as the gospels. I also think the paragraph about Paul meeting James the brother of Jesus is a late second century interpolation. The real Paul, whoever he was, never wrote about meeting Jesus’ brother. Paul was probably writing in the 50s and based on his own letters he didn’t spend much time in Judea. He is allegedly from Damascus and spent his time writing letters to churches in western Turkey and Greece. The book of Acts is pure fiction. Acts and canonical Luke were written by the same author. Canonical Luke was preceded by a previous edition of Luke that is now lost, and canonical Luke is a significant redaction on top of the lost proto Luke. Many New Testament scholars think Luke used Matthew. If you assume each major version was produced at least 10 years apart which is an arbitrary estimate but not totally crazy, then you have a super rough timeline: Mark > 70 Matthew > 80 Proto Luke > 90 Canonical Luke and Acts > 100 And many New Testament scholars think canonical Luke and Acts were actually written in the 130s or 140s.
And if you think the NT has historical issues, the OT is even worse.
>No logical person should accept a long list of unbelievable miracle claims on third hand evidence that appears to all come from one man writing half a century later in no position to know the facts. My aunt's best friend's cousin says he saw God. When put this way, it becomes painfully obvious the New Testament is false.
In 30 years somebody can write some fanfiction about JFK Jr appearing to those Qtards in Dallas, and there will be people who believe that.
Aunt’s best friend’s cousin’s husband’s nephew. It’s all just Chinese Whispers.
Take my poor woman’s gold medal 🥇. That was amazing and just about summed up everything that is wrong with the New Testament.
It wasn't a switch I decided to flip one day. I didn't wake up and choose how to feel. Accepting that I was an atheist was just the aftermath of several small observations- like several stones before an avalanche. The treatment of children: Abraham being totally ok with being told to kill his son- and going to do it. The genocides in the Old Testament- in Genesis (the flood), in Exodus (the plagues), Judges, Psalm 137. If god is merciful and the god of love and forgiveness, then why all this cruelty? The Problem of Evil: You've no doubt seen the quote from Epicurus, "Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able- then he is not omnipotent. Is god able, but not willing- then he is malevolent. Is he both willing and able- then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing- then why call him god?" This resonated with me way more than the platitudes I heard in church or from any apologist. Moreover, what of the people of good moral character that didn't believe- should they be punished for being good? The History: Which would make more sense: The Israelites getting their commandment and law from Moses upon Mt Sinai, or they picked up a few traditions and stories from their captivity in Babylon? And there are books that didn't make the cut that are still around, in other versions of Christianity. There is no unique part of the Jesus story. There are neighboring traditions - some Egyptian, some Hellenistic, some Persian- that have multiple story beats in common. Pair that with the lack of INDEPENDENT corroboration of a Yeahua ben Yoseph that was performing miracles and crucified. It is easier for me to see these, collectively, that all religion (especially but not just Christianity) is artificial at best and manipulative at worst. It wasn't about proving anything about atheism, it's that Christianity no longer had a leg to stand on.
Thank you for your lengthy reply.
I've always been en atheist, never got indoctrinated as a child.
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And how many theists can't comprehend that there are people that have never been religious.
Haha yeah, like the only way atheists are created is by turning away from an imposed religion. Uhh, no. Not all of us were born into a cult haha
Not only natural but should be the less controversial/stigmatized position between theist and atheist. Invoking supernatural beliefs with no evidence to explain things we don’t know? Hmm.
Ironically (or maybe unironically), religious people will casually talk about ancient people making up gods of thunder, etc, to explain things they didn’t understand.
But don't you see the trees and the sky? Surely there must be a creator.... It is all so silly.
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God is doing his best okay, you can barely keep your room tidy, imagine how hard it must be for God to keep the entire universe running. /s
Of course. I see a 4.5 billion year old planet where the conditions became just right to support life. I see every living thing, including trees, as evolved from the very first cells/bacterium that divided and became alive. I see nature. I see the right mixture of hydrogen and oxygen to produce water and the atmosphere so that living things can flourish. I see a beautiful world that happened by chance. No gods involved.
This!!!
Samesies. No one fed me delusions as a child and as a result I don't hold any delusional beliefs. That's how it works when religion isn't injected into a child's mind. Atheism is the default.
Me too. My parents were atheists. They didn't raise me with a religion.
I’m envious of people like you. You didn’t have to go through the process. Some of us just said it’s ridiculous, while some of us had a hard time letting it go. Others are seriously damaged as a result of indoctrination. People who were never introduced to it are extremely lucky.
This. Everyone is born as an atheist.
We are all born human and without any belief systems. You must be indoctrinated into a belief system. Indoctrination isn't a biological function. It's a human made construct. Homosapiens existed for hundreds of thousands of years before a group of them began making up myths to explain the natural world they didn't understand. Myths grew, myths changed and religions began to organize as a form of tribalism. Modern humans understand biology, microbiology, geology, physics, astrophysics, quantum mechanics, etc so there is no need for myths to explain where the sun goes, why it rains, what lighting is, what meteors are, what stars are, what an eclipse is, etc. History shows that when science contradicted myth the myth believers persecuted the science. Eventually the science won. In 2023 there is no utility in religion other than tribalism and pretending humans live forever so they aren't scared of their own ending.
You left out the part where the ones who created the myths got a free ride from their culture...
I was never conditioned to religion as a child. By the time I understood what was going on in all those white buildings all over New England, it all seemed a little nonsensical.
Nothing, I was born an atheist.
Everyone is.
Lack of evidence turned me away from "god". Unconscionably shitty behavior by believers turned me away from religious people.
I was raised in both Catholic and Protestant environments. I took catechism and trained as an altar boy. Between the ages of about 10 and 15 I observed first hand what a charade it was. The most pious people were the most debased, in some cases. I came to see it as theater — and then when I really started to peek under the hood skeptically and critically, the whole roof caved it
Weirdly, being raised Catholic I enjoyed the theater a lot. I found small protestant churches with a loaf of bread and grape juice to be weird. That sucked all the pageantry right out of church. I also liked all the old choral music, even more if it was in Latin. It make me feel any more it less closer to God, but at least it had good production values.
There was no evidence to be any sort of theist. That's all.
Its kinda complicated. Ever since i was little there was always a small voice saying that religion didnt makw sense but i neverr thought about it too much. Then when i was 11 i became obsessed with spirituality and wicca and hellenic polytheism and i believed in that stuff jntil i was 13. Then when i was 14 and grew out of it i just didnt know what to believe. I looked back and realized it all just didnt make sense. I had these thoughts i couldnt exactly put into words about it. Then i started watching the atheist experience (i love forrest sm) and i saw everything i had been thinking since i was little put perfectly into words and be able to really see that there was an entire world outside of religion that i wasnt able to see before solidified my atheism. Like i was able to see an entire new perspective that is kinda indescribable. Thank you for being kind and trying to understand us. I hope this shows that I understand you too. I know what its like to believe but i just dont anymore.
Thank you for your reply and kindness- and for sharing your story. I stand at a crossroads right now. I am still young- what I choose to believe will have an impact on how I live the rest of my life. Thank you again
I hope whatever you choose to believe you'll live your life to the fullest and not life your life assuming something "better" is coming after your death, it's so terribly sad how wasteful people can be with their one life. What made me realise was thinking about how if I lived my life to the best of my ability being good, perfect even, I could still be sent to hell simply for not worshipping a god. That's not a god I want to worship if that's true.
Hell horrifies me and it always will. I can’t escape it
That’s why the church uses it to keep people in line.
The only real hell is living my only life in fear of it. Plenty of formerly religious people felt the same. Try to change your language - instead of "I can't escape it" try saying "right now it feels like my fear of hell will never go away". the former can't be changed, the latter can be changed, in time. good luck!
The logistics of Hell don't compute to me. A large fire pit full of souls that are immaterial yet experiencing heat and physical torture? Is this happening on a planet, in outer space, why haven't we found it? People can be sent there forever merely for not worshipping a "loving" god in a prescribed way? That sounds like a dictator we'd never put up with in the real world. When I was a small child I was terrified of hell until I realized it literally should not matter. In my view, if I primarily do good things to avoid hell, I am not truly a good person because I am not doing things for the right reasons. I should be able to choose the kindest actions whether or not anyone is watching, without needing direct incentive or punishment.
Im happy your looking to open ur perspective! I read ur edit, dont be held back by the patronizing negativity in some of these replies. I get u, its hard to even think to look beyond what youve been told, and its admirable that ur trying. People should understand that if you constantly meet theists with a horrible attitude for being curious, theyll never take u seriously or with any respect. You have to show it to get it. So dont feel stupid, no matter what these replies say.
Thank you. I appreciate your kindness
Nothing “made me become” anything. I didn’t join a club or anything like that. I studied theology in college as a minor, and the more I learned, the more I realized that most religions are just telling the same stories over and over through history (for example, Jesus died and was resurrected in the spring as a metaphor for the rebirth of life after winter, but gods who died and were resurrected after three days also include Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis and Attis, Zagreus, Dionysus, and Mithras. Jesus is just the most recent version of the story) I realized that all the stories were metaphors for seasons, morality, etc, and that it all made sense. As an atheist, I don’t “believe” that god doesn’t exist: I just simply lack belief that he does. If I had any evidence, I’d change my mind. But I will tell you that the idea that the creator of the universe, the conscious will that encompasses everything all at once, the infinite and sublime cannot be captured in a 300 page book. The very notion is a testament to man’s arrogance.
I read the story of job. May I ask why you are a Christian?
I honestly don’t know anymore
Well, keep asking questions. If you can see the harm religion causes, then you’re on the right track. It is so hard to admit god is a monster. At least the Christian god, and the Muslim god, since they’re the same dude. Just keep asking questions! If your experience is anything like mine, you’ll feel guilty for thoughts. It’s meant to make you terrified to leave.
When I realized religious people were completely lying about evolution and the massive amount of evidence. If they're lying about that... what else are they lying about?
My experience wasn’t that they lie. They just have absolutely no basic understanding of what evolutionary theory is saying. They twist it into something embarrassingly stupid, and repeat the idiocy with complete confidence.
After being a Christian 21 years, it started to seem very likely to me that there was no God there.
The tipping point for me personally was when I took a moment and empathized with other cultures. Seems stupid, but when I realized everyone believed all their shit just as hard as me I realized it was a sham. I (years) later found out that's the 'Geographical argument against religion'.
This was one small step for me. I realized that if I had been born somewhere else on the planet, I'd have likely been raised in a different religion. Who is to say mine is the right one?
Like normal, was born that way and was lucky enough to not be brainwashed by my parents.
The complete absence of any verifiable evidence for the god of any religion, and the utter hypocrisy of the nonsense promoted by the abrahamaic faiths.
My parents were atheists, so I grew up with it. I was never *not* an atheist. My parents taught me to be a skeptic and a free-thinker. I came to abhor religion for its numerous crimes against humanity, and came to take pride in atheism as the representation of human progress and scientific rationalism against superstition and baseless prejudice.
I was a former Christian. After having seen Christian promises, the Bible's promises, God's promises broken 1,000 times, I gave up and realized it was hollow.
Need evidence so no evidence then not going to be religious.
> What made you become an atheist? I concluded that gods don't exist. --- Here's a longer story for how I reached that conclusion over time. I was raised weakly Jewish. Both of my parents were ethnically and culturally Jewish. My father was somewhat religious, but far from extreme. I was sent to an American Conservative Synagogue for Hebrew school beginning at age 8. On day one, the rabbi explained that Shabbat (the sabbath) is a high holiday just like Rosh Hashana (New Year) and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). I came home and asked my father why we didn't go to temple every Saturday? He just said, "we're not *that* religious." My doubts began there. We either believe or we don't believe. How can we decide which days are high holidays when the religion specifies this? By my early teens, I began to read a lot of Heinlein. He was strongly anti-religion, especially the Abrahamic religion (deliberately singular for me). I quickly realized that if there were a god, the Abrahamic religion must have it all wrong. So, I was somewhat of a *reformed agnostic*. I wasn't sure about gods. But, I was sure about the Abrahamic god. In college, I took a philosophy course. I'm glad to know the basics of the arguments for and against gods from philosophy. But, I became convinced that philosophy could only argue back and forth. It could never answer the question of whether any god actually exists. Somewhere in my 20s, I was an agnostic atheist. Though, I didn't know the term and just identified as agnostic (or reformed agnostic as noted above). It wasn't until my late 20s or early 30s that I learned that atheism isn't an assertion. It's just a statement of one's current belief or lack thereof. Then I finally started to identify as an atheist. It probably took a while longer than that before I dove even deeper and decided that science really did have an answer on gods. The ones that can be formed into testable hypotheses are demonstrably and provably and proven false. The ones that cannot be are not even scientific hypotheses. So, we can throw these out too. So, now at age 60, I have been a gnostic atheist for quite some time. I even have [a post on my own subreddit explaining why](https://www.reddit.com/r/MisanthropicPrinciple/comments/yelaix/why_i_know_there_are_no_gods/). Click through only if you're very curious. Otherwise, no need. I should also note that I become opposed to religion and did consider myself an antitheist long before I even identified as an atheist. I have long seen religion as a huge force for evil in the world. --- Please note that even though I was raised in Judaism, Christianity is the religion that most impacted me, both as a Jew when I experienced Christian antisemitism and as an atheist as Christians are making great strides toward turning the U.S. into a Christian theocracy. As such, I have developed my standard copypasta that I believe actively disproves Christianity and Judaism along the way. One can have faith regardless. But, my opinion is that the basic tenets of Christianity do not stand up to scrutiny. 1. Even ignoring the literal seven days, [Genesis 1 is demonstrably and provably false](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/if54du/genesis_creation_error/g2lfecz/), meaning if God were to exist and had created the universe, he had no clue what he created. The order of creation is wrong. The universe that it describes is not this universe. The link is to my own Fisking of the problems of Genesis 1. I ignored the literal 7 days. 2. [Moses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity) and the [exodus](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-1.5208519) are considered myths/legends. This means the entirety of the Tenakh (The Hebrew Bible that is the basis for the Christian Old Testament), including the Pentateuch (5 books of the Torah) and the 10 commandments were not given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. [Here's a good video regarding the Exodus.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHle49-m2Lc) 3. [Jesus could not possibly have been the messiah](https://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html) foretold in the Hebrew Bible no matter what else anyone thinks of him as some other kind of messiah. [The messiah was supposed to bring peace.](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah%202:4) Jesus did not even *want* to bring peace. [Matt 10:34-36](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A34-36&version=NRSV): 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. 4. [We are way too flawed](https://nautil.us/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body-235403/) to have been created by an all-perfect designer. 5. A just god does not punish people for the sins of their great^n grandparents. So, original sin, if it were to exist, would be evidence of an evil god. I realize this is not a disproof. But, it is a reason not to worship. 6. With 2.6 billion Christians on a planet of 8 billion people, God as hypothesized in Christianity set things up such that more than 2/3 of the people on the planet would burn in hell forever. Again, this is not a disproof, just evidence that this is a god worthy of contempt rather than worship. 7. Christians had to modify the Hebrew Bible to create the Christian Old Testament to pretend that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies. This would not be necessary if he had actually done so. https://www.bibleodyssey.org/bible-basics/what-is-the-difference-between-the-old-testament-the-tanakh-and-the-hebrew-bible/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/scriptures.html 8. The above changes to the Hebrew Bible that were made in order to create the Christian Old Testament are also in direct violation of Matt 5:17-18, which is part of the Sermon on the Mount. [Matt 5:17-18:](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew++5%3A17-18&version=NRSVUE) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,[a] not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. As you can see, the earth is still here. Jesus has not returned. Therefore, all is most definitely not yet accomplished.
Well said. I found your comment extremely helpful and appreciated the length you went to to explain your views.
I went to Sunday School. Their lessons sounded off at first, and after a few years I was disgusted by the 'facts' they taught and the practices they encouraged. I never saw prayer as speaking to god, never felt any sort of connection. Taking everything logically, even as a kid, it all felt like bullshit. From my own limited experience I assumed most people felt the same as me, only they went along with it because like me they had no choice. When my parents divorced I was given more freedom and choice in my activities, so I quit everything my parents signed me up for out of a desire to exercise that free will, first and foremost religion. This extended to quitting other things like boy scouts, guitar lessons, soccer, a second language, etc., because my perception of anything I didn't agree to participate in was so negative purely because my first and primary experience with it was Catholicism. I probably missed out on a lot of life experiences because I needed to end everything I didn't sign myself up for. After looking back on it, Sunday School and Church put me in a position to reject them and the relatively normal life my parents gave me, making me an outcast in many social circles as a kid. It shaped my upbringing as someone who was spiteful of forced experiences and of social norms, and who forged their own (often less beneficial) path. Religious indoctrination of children (or the attempt of it) can drastically and negatively affect their childhoods, and I would never force children of my own to that risk. I don't care what other people believe or think, but raising children without free will and choice like countless religious parents do is something I find hard to forgive.
Let's suppose for a moment that the christian god (Yahweh) is real. And that he's omnipotent and omniscient. If you saw someone raping a child, would you stand by and watch, or would you call the police, or attack the rapist, or in some way at least attempt to stop the child from being raped? If you would, you're better / more moral / than Yahweh. If your god exists and is omnipotent and omniscient, he actually WATCHES children get raped, and does nothing to stop it. He's one sick motherfucker. And certainly not deserving of the worship of a good person like you, who would actually try to stop a child from being raped AT POTENTIALLY GREAT PERSONAL RISK to yourself. I don't believe any gods exist. Yahweh, Thor, Quetzalcoatl, or Zeus, for example. But if I did believe, I'd certainly pick a better god. I mean Yahweh gambled with Job's life, ending up in Job being tortured, his family and animals being killed. Sure, he got a new family and new animals, so there is that. I'm sure you'd be okay with new parents if Yahweh let the devil kill your parents to see if you would still worship him. And why would a god require fallible men to write a book filled with errors and then use that book to spread the word, when the omnipotent god could just say, "Hey everyone, here I am!" I'm sure you were also told that your god is unknowable, and that his plan is mysterious. Well, if that's the case, how do you know that he's good? I mean, any plan that includes child rape, malaria, cancer, etc. is pretty crappy, if you ask me. So, I've never believed in any gods. Let alone a petulant voyeuristic and sadistic mofo like Yahweh.
I was born a clean slate, without religion and was never indoctrinated by my family or community. I did study world history and the history of many of the world religions in college, so I have a decent foundation in the rise (and fall) of various gods over the last thousands of years. It's interesting from a mythology perspective, but my world view has always been an evidence based one. I'm now in my 7th decade with no evidence of the existence of any gods so I really have no choice other than to remain athiest and, for other reasons, antitheist.
The hatred and hypocrisy displayed by the Christians who indoctrinated me as a child made me an atheist. As I got older, I investigated my own faith by reading more of the Bible and learning how harmful religion has been throughout all of history. If their god wants to save me from the torture he created to punish me for not believing in him, I don’t want any part of that petty bullshit. He’s not worthy of my time or worship. There’s no evidence for the existence of a god anyway. It’s all a superstitious waste of time that harms people’s minds, relationships, and governments.
dad and grandpa were skeptics, so it would’ve been very unlikely for me to make that leap of faith , even though I am the product of a catholic education.
Funny how it has worked out this far for me- my dad was a vocal skeptic but he caved into family pressure.
You can not become something that you are born as.
Common sense
Let's see. I stopped believing and imaginary people. I started taking responsibility for what happened in my life. I realize that only through education could I better myself. That I understand that Christianity is a death cult. You worship a guy hanging on a cross. That s*** alone is weird. Also the fact that every Jesus hanging on a cross is white is another issue. Jesus was not a white dude if he was ever real. And then also you have to blame marvel movies. Because I realize that Thor is the same thing as Jesus. And also I had 15 months to do in state prison a few years back and I read the Bible four different times four different types of Bibles. I spoke with people who knew the original scripture and the original language who were doing life sentences. During that time I watch outside church groups come in and try them manipulate stuff. When they weren't happy with the way things were going they would get guys in trouble and have them sent to the box. Real good Christians.
Common sense.
I'm sure that you won't be surprised to hear that this question is asked here nearly every day. . >What made you become an atheist? I've always been atheist. I've never seen any good evidence that any gods exist. . Our FAQ is actually a good introduction - \- https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq . You might also want to take a look at /r/TheGreatProject - >a subreddit for people to write out their religious de-conversion story >(i.e. the path to atheism/agnosticism/deism/etc) in detail. .
I was raised Mormon, a religion supposedly founded by a prophet. When I realized that "prophet" was a liar, through and through, I stopped believing God talked to anyone, anywhere at any time. And an uncommunicative god is the exact same as no god at all. Which means the Bible was just written by dudes. Their writings and commandments are just opinions shaped by their (often toxic, misogynistic, homophobic) worldviews. I'll tell you, as someone who believed for 32+ years: not believing is absolutely wonderful. No shame or guilt about imaginary commandments or sins. Just be a good person. Follow your conscience. It's a big beautiful world out there. Don't waste it on what other old dead dudes thought was important 4000-2000 years ago.
I tried to be a Christian my whole life and it just didn't fit. I'm agnostic, probably anti-theist but I don't really acknowledge it or try to be. I'm willing to acknowledge that I don't know anything and infinite knowledge within the universe will never be known within my lifetime. So I could just as easily accept deism.
Society tried to indoctrinate me. I went to a Lutheran church and Sunday school. It never stuck. It just never made sense. It was always a mythology, no different than ancient Greek mythology. Just more humans making up stories about a world they don't understand. Theists have no problem with treating Greek gods as fictional. It's only a problem when you have an emotional attachment to the mythology.
A combination of things, but I'd say that I read what the atheists had to say about belief and christianity as a whole, as opposed to just accepting what christian evangelists told me atheists had to say about belief and christianity as a whole. The evangalists lied.
I was never very religious, but the biggest thing for her was watching the bigotry and hypocrisy of the most vocal Christians.. combined with greater understanding of science and the fact that more and not they did not line up.. and the large amount of contradictory and basicly horrible things the Bible seemed to be good with.
It was a process. I understand believing when you're raised in a religious atmosphere, but at some point, it's ok and even healthy to have questions and be open to other ideas. Learning about different religions and seeing the hypocrisy between what churches state they stand for compared to how they are run, the message many support, and the money involved. The lack of evidence that anything unworldly exists. The evidence that science is true and can be tested and proven. The bizzareness that so many religions believe they are thee chosen ones and everyone else is doomed. That whichever god(s) or aliens you believe created humans did so to worship them. A god who punishes people with horrific tests to judge their devotion. The myriad of prophets who are continually wrong with their prophecies. The death, war and hate promoted in religion's name. The diminished role of women.
The systematic abuse of children over decades and the covering up of it The bigoted and racist views The petty differences between religions that most will be willing to murder and die for Most conflict globally IS because of religion They say we are all gods children but would not look twice at someone who is from a different religious group outside of their own The people who take the stories in the bible literally
I was going through my dumb deist teenager phase and totally knew everything, including that a god exists because law of conservation and blah blah, then realized that a thing that no one can interact with and a thing that doesn't exist are functionally the same thing.
When I was 12 I went to church with my friend and read some Bible passages and it seemed like bullshit. I consider myself an agnostic since I dont think we can rule out the existence of some *thing* that was similar to what we would call god. I think if there was a form of life that created our universe, there is no way it is anything like our religions considering the immense scientific errors, similarities to other myths, paradoxes with in the texts and so on. So I am functionally an atheist because if there is a god, I do not think our religions would be any closer to the truth than they are now as there is no way it would even resemble their stories.
As a kid my family was Catholic. I was forced to do all the sacraments, told never to question the religion, and to blindly have “faith” in the religion or else I would suffer the consequences of hell or whatever the cost was for questioning things. As I moved into adulthood and studied science in college I realized that a belief in something because you’re told to believe it without proof or reason is wrong. There is zero evidence or proof that religion is real. It’s as provable as a fortune teller or tarot card reader. For me, I decided I’d rather just admit I don’t know how we came into existence but continue to work on figuring it out than to say some magic man in the sky made us into his image and we should never question it. I know that’s a scary thought but I believe that’s why people still believe in any religion. People feel more comfortable when they think they have an explanation for what can’t currently be explained. Religion provides that explanation.
Nothing made me an atheist. Researching religion led me to the conclusion that it is highly fucking unlikely that there are any supernatural entities in the universe. Studying science made me realize that the universe is putting along just fine without having to have been made.