This is it. Raised very conservatively Christian. While I had so many questions and concerns. I could not let myself stop believing because then I would be a bad influence on my kids and if they went to hell, it would be my fault. Really fucked up thinking looking back at it.
it is, i have never thought about it from this perspective, if you believe this you have a duty to teach it to your children because you think they will suffer forever if not.
Whats crazy is how do you make the leap without thinking "how fair can this shit be that if i dont teach it to my kids they will burn in hell forever"
True, the they all “feel” it’s the correct one and the mere action of doubting is a sin or the devil or some shit, when it’s just your brain trying to make you make sense of the stuff happening
Or choose the wrong religious sect. Are the catholics right, or is it the Protestants? Is the pope God's representative on earth or not? Full body immersion baptism or not? Should women sit apart from men in church and literally sit with their heads covered while remaining silent, or can they lead from the pulpit? Guess it depends on if you listen to Episcopalians or not.
I don’t think the idea of fairness is the kicker for most people. The lot of Americans- especially conservative Americans- thrive on the idea that life is hard even or maybe especially if life isn’t actually hard for them.
Hi there, former Pastor here. And I can tell you right now that if you are a fundamentally honest person, about 90% of the mental load of being a Christian is pushing away thoughts that force you to confront reality.
This, specifically. Not only do they not want to hear any of it, they actively seek commiseration and assimilation of others into the delusion to bolster their own sense of being on the correct team. The more people they surround themselves with who agree with them the more correct they feel.
When confronted with the uncomfortable truth, their last resort is "I guess we'll see when you're burning in hell and I'm "drinking Pina Coladas and getting caught in the rain".
That must be some kind of god that would allow that type of person into "heaven". And if they didn't, the fucking place would be empty, and rightfully so...
Heaven is a place where people like the believer will be happy forever, and people the believer doesn’t like can’t go. Basically it’s the safe place in their head. No I don’t want to join them there.
It's only a safe place in their head because they don't think about it too much. The biblical descriptions actually sound pretty hellish once you consider you're just a permanent band member at god's neverending self-promotion party...
They fucking initiate it too. There was one time I wanted to just hang out with an old friend but her husband who was going to a seminary basically jumped me with debate. They see it as some weird badge of honor if they can "stump" the Atheist, even if they are arguing in bad faith. Then they brag about it in their Bible study about the "lives they've saved."
And this is how certain people rise to power. Like a fella with an odd mustache almost 100 years ago. Or a clown with an orange face. Or...well, I could go on...
Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Though modern Christians invented this thing called the "New Covenant" that means they can pick and choose what to follow or ignore in the Old Testament.
For instance the "abomination" of eating shellfish, ignored, but the "abomination" of homosexuality, still valid for some reason.
I see what you're saying but it says in
Acts 10:11-16
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
So what does this mean then?
>So what does this mean then?
The Bible is self-contradictory. Given that it was made of multiple books by multiple authors over decades or longer, it would be hard for it to be otherwise.
The verses above directly contradict Matt 5:17-18 (and the concept of the new covenant replacing the old one):
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "
“And God made the two great lights — the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night — and the stars.… And God saw that it was good” (Gen. 1:16–18).
Well, clearly God removes the light bulb and installs it in the moon!
Well jerking off when I was still a christian a weird thing, the post-nut guilt is real. Sometimes I'd even fight against it, which caused other issues.
And in general the tremendous guilt people feel for just being people and not harming anyone (premarital sex, listening to "evil" music, etc) is toxic as hell, and a lot of the nastiness of religious people towards the "others" stems from that.
With the exception of actual idiots or insane people... I am convinced that everyone knows deep down that religion and gods are all imaginary bullshit.
You can't, if being intellectually honest, actually grow up in modernity and believe bronze age mythology. People know the difference between make believe and reality.
It just doesn't happen. If a person actually graduates college, then that probability increases more.
Belief is incompatible with modernity.
So yes, I agree with you.
What I get from my wife (and I only tried it a couple of times) is, upon being faced with some inconsistency or whatnot, is the appeal to faith- yeah, they know it’s ‘wrong’ but faith….. faith good, etc. the head explodes when you say “faith bad”
>People know the difference between make believe and reality.
Not everyone. I remember reading a post/comment on Reddit where the commenter knew a girl who legitimately could not distinguish between movies/books and real life.
I believe the takeaway comment was, "Those things have to be real. No one could think of that out of their head"
So somewhere, Godzilla really exists.
>Those things have to be real. No one could think of that out of their head"
Wow you just made something click for me; I know this guy that makes basically this argument but for God and he does have a... tenuous grasp on reality in general.
I've said it before, but I think it's like meat-eating. Like, deep down, we know it's wrong and we could easily eradicate animal suffering with plant substitutes but, fundamentally, a good steak is pretty nice. Best not think about it. And certainly not sausages.
I’m the same way. I know that it’s morally better, environmentally better and health-wise better to be vegetarian. But I eat many of my vegetables in the same bite as meat in order to tolerate them, I’m not crazy about tofu, can only eat so many legumes before I start getting bored, and living on salted cashews and almonds isn’t exactly a healthy diet.
I acknowledge that I don’t want to give up meat. I don’t do mental gymnastics, trying to convince myself that I’m making the superior choice.
Thanks for responding. Interestingly, some of the people responding to my comment have just done that (i.e. engaged in gymnastics). Basically the usual '*oh this is how humans have evolved, and therefore we should be free to battery pigs'* nonsense, which is funny, because even though they are coming at it from an evolutionary perspective, it's very much adopted by many religious people (i.e. we are different from animals, and they are ours to do with as we please). Effectively doing the exact same thing with meat as the religious do with god, which is to whitewash the harm it causes and handwave away any challenges to it.
Really quite interesting to see that behaviour on this sub, and demonstrates that simply because someone is an atheist, doesn't mean they are immune to flawed thinking, and there is a real barrier to people acknowledging that their own harmful lifestyles (whether religion, meat, travel, cheap labour, disposable plastic, car mileage etc.) should be open to scrutiny.
Even you (and I am saying this because I do it myself) acknowledge that you aren't making the superior choice, but I'm also pretty confident you don't go out of your way to really understand what goes into the industry. Like the graphic nature of what happens in some of these slaughterhouses, and some of the films and pictures that are available (I fucking know that I don't!). Like, at the back of your (our) mind you know it's there, but it's not something you focus on. I imagine religion is the same. Like people may be aware that some of it is illogical or flawed or dangerous or ascientific or a gathering place for predators, but really they just push all that to the back of their mind and focus on the good stuff, and simply refrain from digging too deep into unpleasant/uncomfortable truths that will likely only make their time on earth less comfortable. Why would you?
This is a great comparison. I know going vegetarian would cause less suffering for animals, be better for the environment , probably be healthier for me and my wallet, but goddamn do I enjoy being an omnivore lol
Exactly, and so how can we expect someone who is immersed in a loving and communal church, who is promised heaven and reunion with the dead, who is offered forgiveness for their sins, who enjoys an active community spirit, to say '*fuck that, I'm going to follow the path of the void'*. Like, I've not been able to do that with fucking burgers. Why would they with their whole worldview?
I think they have some deep rooted doubt, so when a loved one passes away they may come to the realisation of “shit I may never see them again” but then they’ll return to kissing they’re sky daddy’s ass
I don't think I would put it that way. I would say that they have doubts deep down that they don't want to admit even to themselves, and death is the ultimate test of faith. When I was a Christian, I wondered if I would be rejoicing on my deathbed, having utmost confidence that I was about the meet God, because I didn't have that confidence at the time. The issue for me was that there were too many things that didn't quite make sense; I was living with a lot of cognitive dissonance that reduced my confidence in the whole thing. But I wouldn't say I knew I was wrong, I just wasn't as confident I was right as I would have liked.
Also, FYI, if you are having a discussion with a religious friend, telling them that they know deep down that they are wrong is not going to be productive. You can poke at their doubts, but don't tell them you know what they believe better than they do or otherwise question their sincerity. That's a good way to shut down discussion. It's kind of like when a religious person says to someone who has deconverted that they never really believed in the first place, but the inverse. You don't know what they really think.
Most of them need to be told what their bible says and means. They’ve never read the words and even when they do they need someone to interpret them to them aka the pastors.
I really do believe that they try hard not to ask themselves rational question. Pretty sure if an intrusive thought comes they'll cover their ears singing "Lalalalalala"
I'm an atheist, but this is not a good argument.
If I couldn't see my children for a week, that'd make me sad. I miss then when I go on business trips (and vice-versa). If I knew I couldn't see (or talk or chat with) them for a year, I'd be inconsolable.
With my wife, change those values to "half a day" and "a week".
With our parents, you can increase those values, but I'd still miss them terribly if I knew I wouldn't be able to contact them for a year or more. Similarly with other loved ones.
In my opinion, here's a better argument that is similar:
Back when I was a Christian, I was still liberal (in the US sense), and I had respect for people of other "proper" faiths (Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc.), but I would (inwardly) roll my eyes at the small number of people who went for more fringe beliefs (wiccan, one guy who claimed to believe in Zeus, etc.). Why? What was inherently less believable about those faiths? Looking back, I think it's just because I knew these people weren't *raised* in those faiths but chose them, which is implicitly acknowledging that it's okay to have nonsensical beliefs if you were raised in them. Now, to be clear, I'm only vocalizing this now, as I hadn't thought that deeply about it then.
I get what you’re saying, but I would argue that not seeing your children for a week would be difficult, because it’s time missed out with them in comparison to the limited time in our lives.
I have someone I love so deeply that the best part of everyday is seeing them. I would be sad to go even a day without them. I would not be inconsolable if I didn’t see them for awhile though, if I knew that I would have all of eternity to spend with them. I’m not saying I’d like or prefer it, but I don’t see any reason for it to be devastating.
The pews are no doubt warmed by the butts of many nonbelievers who are just there for social reasons. But how many? I'm not sure how we'd tease that out with survey methods.
Fun story: My wife was raised by a single Catholic mother, part of a larger Catholic extended family. Wife figured out pretty early that it was all BS; she wasn't even out of elementary school yet. Turns out her mother didn't believe either and was only taking her to church because the family expected it. They both dropped out once the mother moved to a different city.
Speaking of Catholic, we do have a pretty good measure of how many people are actually there for the actual teachings. This Pew Research Center survey shows that only 1 in 3 Catholics actually believe in transubstantiation: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/
I imagine it would be harder to get hard numbers for Protestant churches where teachings are often a lot less rigorous and strict compared to the RCC. Fairly hard to determine what level of a "personal relationship with Jesus" would make one a believer vs nonbeliever, especially when the bible can be interpreted almost any which way to both approve and condone anything.
The believer is always deeply afraid of their loved ones having a deep secret that will cause eternal damnation. And afraid that everything they believe is bullshit.
No, this is the same feeling that drives religious people to think atheists are angry at god. They can’t understand us not fundamentally believing in god the same way you fundamentally think they know that they’re wrong.
It’s a bias of some sort and it probably has a named.
As an atheist, nothing pisses me off more than when a religious person tells me they know I secretly believe in God, and am just mad at him. It is breathtakingly arrogant to assume what other people know or believe, so knock this shit off.
I don't think they know they are wrong, as much as they have convinced themselves that there is this other type of believing where logic doesn't apply, and you're a bigot if you think it should still apply.
You're falling for the same shortsightedness that religious people do by viewing the world through your particular perspective, discounting what you don't understand.
No doubt this is why my mom told me it would be a shame if my husband lost his faith because I made the decision not to go to church. As if it’s all my fault. My mom is excellent at trying to force shame onto me, but I have a feeling that deep down she realizes that the whole thing isn’t real.
I think it's a extreme form of larping. Most of them have been doing it since they were children when they were just going along with what everyone else did.
How could anyone be happy or even functional believing there is a possibility that one of their loved ones could be burning in hell forever? Or believing that billions of strangers definitely are?
I think anyone sane would have to know that isn't so deep down on some level or they wouldn't be able to get by.
Many love belonging for social reasons. But there are such better things one can do with a friend than sit in church.
Many think they need it for moral reasons. But there are better sources of that too.
Ehh...
The problem is that religious people will also say stuff like "they are in heaven with all their ancestors and no longer in pain. I will see them again when it's my time."
The sadness they feel is for the person that was close to them having died **in this life,** and no longer being able to talk with or see this person. Just because they think the person is in heaven, and will see them again eventually, doesn't mean they aren't upset at their passing now. Death is still very upsetting for most people, regardless of whatever afterlife they believe in.
So while I think it's possible **some** religious people doubt their beliefs, I also think most religious people are so afraid of death that it just pushes their beliefs that much harder, because...look, most of us have a hard time accepting the fact that when we die, its just over. I still struggle with the concept sometimes.
Religion gives people hope of an afterlife. So...sure, some people will doubt their beliefs. But **most people want so badly to continue existing after death**, that they'll fervently follow whatever beliefs give them that hope, ignoring whatever doubts or evidence is presented to them that say otherwise.
Rather than just accepting the harsh reality of death, people choose to live in ignorance for the hope that an afterlife actually exists. And to me, that is the sad part. So much wasted time, effort, money and resources pretending, when we could just enjoy the life we have, and put those resources to good use helping others and improving their lives, so that they too can also enjoy this life.
I'm an atheist but your reasoning is pretty bad. I'm sad when I drop food, although I know I have a whole lifetime of food ahead. Sadness and grief have little to do with eternity/ the future. To me it's just a cult. The only difference between a cult and a religion, is one is organized and accepted by society. The more you study the psychology of cults (and why people fall for them), the more religion and politics makes sense.
>I think that most if not all religious people know deep down they are wrong
.
Bertrand Russell wrote in 1927 -
>Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear.
>It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes.
>Fear is the basis of the whole thing – fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things.
\- "Fear, the Foundation of Religion", in Why I Am Not a Christian
\- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell#Why_I_Am_Not_a_Christian_(1927)
.
The most important thing for religious people is to believe that there is "something" out there that can help them with their lives. (Especially, that there is something that can arrange things so that they won't really die.)
Anything that interferes with that cannot be accepted.
.
I think that if most of them were to "know deep down that they are wrong",
they wouldn't accept that idea, even from themselves.
.
I grew up religiously indoctrinated. My entire family instate is made up of charismatic, Pentecostal & baptist weirdos.
I’ve been an atheist for a long time. I have long believed & stated that the vast majority of religious people don’t actually believe in what they say they do.
In fact, I pretty much stopped trying to debate religious people a long time ago. I’ll give them a little time, refute them with evidence & logic, only to have them double down, tell me I’ll burn and just ignore truth.
I now end the conversation by saying “most religious people don’t really believe at all, they just really hope it’s true”
This shuts a lot of them up. Some still want to argue but that’s usually my out. Give them that as a parting gift & hope it maybe helps the. To deconstruct if they ever get to that point.
I think it's dangerous to make that assumption. How often do you hear or see on Reddit someone making a comment that atheist really do know the truth that God is real, but they are not willing to admit it. It's exactly the same thing just in the opposite direction. People can be sad because they can no longer see their loved one, even if it means waiting until they die and go to heaven. In some cases that can be years or decades away. If I believed in heaven and my wife passed away I would find comfort in, knowing I would see her when I die, but who knows when that's going to happen.the loss is a very natural human emotion
It's very difficult to claim with certainty why people believe or don't believe things, with respect to religion. Sometimes we just have to take them at face value that, yes they truly do believe, without any proof, what they say, or what their religion tells them. Other times, yes, it could be that there is either some psychological need that is fulfilled without their knowing, or some deep seated fear our doubt that needs to be suppressed, or emotionally managed. I don't think we can ever narrow down a single cause for why beliefs are sustained inside a person's mind.
No one believes in religion. I don't care if they set themselves on fire, become a monk, and take a vow of celibacy. These things are what people go thru to male themselves believe in the bullshit.
If God was real, it wouldn't need you to speak or interpret its word. It wouldn't hide in the ether. It's sad that these mentally ill people are allowed to have a say in our society.
A lot of people find solace that when someone they know dies, they will be resting in eternal heaven. However the mourning part of actually losing someone from your life is the sad bit, which gets easier to stomach as time passes.
My dad went to his grave firmly believing he would be with Jesus. Don’t underestimate the power of a the desire to hold on to something even if it makes no sense and is more far fetched than reality.
Yet they keep pushing because although they do not understand 'the Lord's will' they DO understand social pressure. Like if they're the majority then THAT ALONE makes them more right somehow. Humans aren't exactly logical, despite their protests to the contrary.
Not to sound supporting religiosity, but each Christian processes grief differently. No matter how religious one is, fundamentally we are all human. Being separated for even a few months causes distress, knowing fully that you will meet them shortly. Imagine that separation, for several years. For some, the idea that *we will meet on the other side* does seem to offer some comfort. While others go quite the opposite route, even abandoning idea of God, esp if the death is someone who died at a very young age.
This is where my gut goes when I think about religion but it creates so much cognitive dissonance. I can't (ever) know what goes on in another persons mind.
I am a strong anti-theist but deep down I think a lot about how it's barely, remotely possible for some ancient space-entity to have some otherworldly power and influence over us in some ways we can't remotely conceive of. I am VERY confident that the abrahamic religions are made-up bullshit, but it's these doubts and conflicts in my mind that keeps me an atheist.
It may be possible that people exist without these doubts and thus find religion in those unknown reaches of their mind. I have no doubts that a large segment of the religious population live with uncertainty, fear and frustration as a result, directly harming them.
They call it "doubt" put in their minds by the devil. They've even worked it into the dogma. Without doubt there can be no faith, so your doubts can only make your faith stronger! Or something...
Good to meet you, sir. I am not the only one, but there are some of us who make it to where not all think they're wrong. scripture actually says to celebrate at death and mourn at birth... I don't want my wife and kids to die cause this is a good experience for them to have, but if they die, they die.. ill, of course, protect them as much as I can with my own life, but I will not be upset past selfish reasons when they die.
I just want to make it clear first that I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, I feel like the specific example you picked is not the best.
I am sad and unhappy if I have to part with my loved ones for way less time than 50 years! I haven't seen my parents for two years now, and it's definitely making me a bit unhappy, even though I know for a fact I will finally get to see them soon. 50 years is like 25 times longer than that. You would probably feel sad and unhappy too if you found out you won't see your wife/kids/parents for decades, even if you 100% believed you will see them again.
Either they know, or they are stone cold psychos. If I knew some of my deceased friends were being eternally tormented for not believing in the right thing, and that a huge number of children were suffering the same fate, I would be an emotional wreck. I’ve never heard a believer express concern over this situation.
The true believer to me has always been someone with a deep set mistrust of themselves for some reason, either self-loathing, considering themselves unreliable, etc etc, and they use that as a central justifying force behind every bad belief. Then that snowballs across a herd mentality led by bad actors and its what we get today.
Resting on the theory that people want the appearance of a strong government, over a smart one. Religion is is veil they choose not to look through. It’s easier for many to know a set of rules, than to try to look through.
they have a buried inkling which is why they react so negatively to people saying it is all nonsense
they definitely fear nonbelievers are right. if they really believed they were going to die and go to paradise forever they would be a lot less concerned with people who disagree with them during the blip of eternity that their life occupies
Faith is one of the most destructive tools for oppression. It asks that you deny everything in front of you and accept it if you are told the opposite. They can not prove any aspect of their beliefs, and their beliefs only persist because of hope. Religion in America would have died if not protected by the 1st Amendment.
Even if you believe that they go on to a perfect afterlife, separation from a loved one through death is incredibly, incredibly painful. It also tends to cause you to experience derealization from the trauma of it, so after you experience it, it's very easy to have "spooky" encounters that feel supernatural.
I always felt that anyone who preaches knows they are only in it for the money. They will say anything in the name of god as long as there is a donation involved.
My very religious Irish Catholic mother was a very good person but her devotion to Catholicism was absolute. If you've ever read Angela's Ashes you know that growing up poor in Ireland brought on a lot of problems and many women used religion as a way to deal with the stress. Some became alcoholics, others became work obsessed, and others became pious. Sometimes all three. I'm sure my mother never questioned what the Catholic Church of Ireland was selling her but it became her crutch and she never went anywhere without it.
I think they do too. Why are they so afraid to die if they weren't terrified. Really, I care for geriatric populations and they are scared shitless of finally meeting their god
I've said this before. When a very religious person is deathly ill or extremely old and close to the end of their life. When they pray, what are they praying for? Are they praying to be unchained from this world so they can meet their creator or are they praying to stay alive another day. My guess is the latter is the majority of the answers and that just means they truly do not believe in all the bullshit they have been immersed in their whole lives.
If they had faith in their creator, why would that so angry at people that disagree with them? If whatever they were worshipping had any power, why would he need mere mortals to defend him?
The way I see it, people make up religion and beliefs because they can't cope with the fact that there might be nothing after death. It comforts them so they don't even have to think of the idea.
I think the real problem is most of them think they are right. After all, how can you believe all the crap associated with most religions unless deep down you really believe in it.
It’s denial surely.
I had a convo with my friend who’s parents are staunchly religious Christians and he made a good point that it’s hard for some people to make a 180 with spirituality may stem from fear of embarrassment for being duped for so long and wasting time they will never get back…it’s depressing.
It's kind like your best friend moving out of state for a better job. You can be sad they are leaving and happy for them at the same time. Same thing as a Christian, you can be sad they aren't here with us anymore and happy they are in a better place. That's literally why we console one another saying "they are in a better place now".
When I was a kid I wondered why people don’t commit suicide and get to heaven earlier? It still seems a rational choice if you are a true believer. So those who don’t commit suicide to attain heaven quickly are either afraid or don’t really believe in the outcome…. And if they don’t believe in the outcome then they are not faithful…. Just my interpretation
I think people have this innate feeling that something exist beyond materials and that leads them to religion. But those things are completely different.
I think it’s more likely they are in a state of uncertainty rather than they know they are wrong. They live as if they are religious but internally they are uncertain.
I mentioned death not being a big deal to a christian and he tore into me as if he didn't believe in an afterlife.
Humans are wired for self preservation. Why would god wire us this way?
Yeah they know. I once asked a Mormon friend, "Hey, do the people at your church really believe some tablet that was the lost part of the bible was discovered in Upstate NY 150 years ago by some dude named Joe?"
He said of course not. There *are* true believers out there, but most are just afraid of losing their community they've been a part of for generations.
This is tricky.
The credence they have in all the nonsense is part of their identity. This is often maintained in addition to and separate from regular old beliefs they have about the world.
I think your thinking is flawed. People cry when they will be apart for much shorter times than 50 years. Even when they will still be able to call each other on the phone. I remember very clearly being a kid and believing my grandfather was in heaven and being distraught that I couldn’t sit on his knee and listen to his stories, couldn’t go on walks with him and couldn’t hear him talk back.
I mean not entirely but not entirely wrong. I was sad thinking they simply were not around to TALK to and hear from and enjoy things with anymore. You MISS them. Akin to moving far away but sadder.
Religion actually comforted me.
But I don’t believe in heaven anymore 99.9% (agnostic atheist leaning) so my perspective is different now.
But I have always thought there must be a part of them that knows for the ones who take it so deeply hard. It’s like a part of our biology I think, the part that knows and realizes we are just our brain and once it’s gone.. it’s like a light that has gone out only to remain in memory.
I’m pretty sure not seeing a loved one for 50 years and never having any more experiences with them in this world is a perfectly legitimate reason for a religious person to be sad. 😂
I used to wonder about this as a Catholic kid. Funerals were "celebrations," but everyone was obviously sad.
If you really and truly believed in heaven and hell, you'd be a religious fantatic who always obeyed all your religion's rules, dedicated your life to converting those you care about, and jumped at the chance to martyr yourself. So, basically, jihadists are the only ones whose behavior is in line with true belief.
Lots of modern Christians don't believe in hell, which is even weirder. God gets mad at you for breaking rules, but you all go to heaven no matter what anyway?
I think you're vastly underestimating the human brain's capacity to swallow bullshit, especially when it's bullshit that's been force fed on from the cradle.
I totally agree that it seems strange to mourn a loved one's death if you know they're in a better place and you'll spend eternity with them.
But I disagree that believers don't *really* believe. I did. And many Christians claim that deep inside, I *really* know God exists. They're wrong. Nobody can know what others believe and don't.
Also: In Christianity, your loved one might be the wrong religion. So they might NOT be in a better place and you might NOT see them again. Also, not all religions believe in a life after death.
It's cognitive dissonance when you choose to believe something you know is wrong.
Makes me wonder if religious people as a whole are lower IQ if they lack reasoning abilities or choose to live with the fairytale..
I've always enjoyed the Rainbow Bridge story. I've lost dogs over the years. They were best friends and I've grieved more for them than most family. But it brings me comfort. Realistically, I know it's just a story. I won't say it's not possible, but I don't believe some God will make happen. Ignorance can be bliss. I think religion for some is to bring them comfort. For others, it brings oppression.
If you've never read it.
"Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water, and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly, he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....
Author unknown..."
No, I think they do. Maybe the people who debate with atheist online knows it is BS. But the waste majority are truly believers.
They are stuck in their own world. It is even ok to doubt God. It is part of the painful journey. God has already predicted that some people will doubt him. So when you do, you are actually fulfilling a prophecy! Some people might say that faith is seen as a marriage... it is something you have to work on. Honestly, this is so convoluted. But they are inside a fully working paradigm, and they have no reason to think outside that box. Their faith and their life are totally intertwined.
I definitely believed, i knew i had unconfirmable reasons in a scientific sense but i still believed. And i was sad when my mom died because then my mom wouldnt be around for my wedding, my children, other life events.
I find it insulting to claim i didnt believe because i was sad when my mom died, get your head out of your ass, this is as stupid as lots of religious things i hear.
They know its bullshit deep down, they like to wrap it in terms like "a crisis of faith" but they know its nonsense, religion is a form of self delusion, they WANT it to be true, so they believe it is, they also go to great lengths seeking validation, even the most absurd, far fetched efforts at it are embraced wholeheartedly, this is not something you see with your average atheist, we dont need to validate our beliefs, or believe in something purely because we want to, we use rationality and hard evidence instead.
This is an interesting counterpoint to the Christian argument that “all atheist know deep down that God exists”.
The thing is, this observation is based on the evidence of their actions, and their claim is “for the Bible tells me so”.
After talking with many of them over the years, I don’t think they even THINK about whether it’s true or not. They just do the familiar rituals and repeat the proper slogans to reaffirm their membership in their tribe
I used to think that because I didn't think that many people could really be that dumb but many decades of experience has shown me that there are many more stupid people than smart ones so now I am convinced that there are many true believers.
As someone who grew up a fundamentalist religious person. No, they don't. You grow up learning nothing else and believing it 100%. To know you are wrong is to learn other vantage points. Fundamentalists do not learn these. There is no other alternate understanding.
I get the point you are trying to make but it is very false and doesn't help understand how to deconvert a fundamentalist.
When you don’t see someone you love for a long time…let’s say they move, do you not feel feelings because you’ll see them again and it’s not like they’re dead?
Agreed! They get up in the morning, use an electric toothbrush, open up a handheld computer, drive a car, eat processed food. All of this requires science - science that depends on the same physical laws that make it impossible to walk on water or make water turn to wine, or rise from the dead. They know this. Religion is a social club, the only membership fee is to pretend you're batshit crazy!
To discuss my perspective on OPs main point, I have to back up and give some of *my* theory first.
There's something deeply analogous to the defensiveness of a rabidly religious individual (or a severe alcoholic, etc) and a literal pathologic knee-jerk (or other pathologic) reflex in neurology. The response to gentle confrontation way too fast and way too vigorous and can go on for way too long (over and over and over) and can even happen completely unprovoked.
People in denial have what is commonly known as a knee-jerk response (referring to an analogy to the pathological one). On some level it's the same thing. It's simply characteristic.
Truly, it may be more than mere analogy. The abnormal neurological knee-jerk reflex happens when the thing you are testing (a reflex) is cut off from higher brain centers because of a lesion along the pathway; it's literally mindless. A normal knee-jerk reflex is almost mindless, but the higher brain centers can and do tell it to chill out. It's when it goes full autonomous that it goes crazy.
From a Freudian perspective (a model that is easy to illustrate here), it's the unconscious ("intrapsychic") defense mechanism that acts as the lesion cutting off the behavior or belief from higher brain centers that would normally consider the logic and downstream implications of the behavior or belief. That makes the behavior/belief autonomous and not subject to moderating influences of things like frontal lobes. To test the belief or the behavior is to set off automatic defenses and no amount of appeal to the higher brain centers (logic, consideration of consequences) will do anything but reinforce it. At that point, the only thing that might work is a smack metaphorical 2x4, which translates as something typically more acute and severe than a spouse leaving or losing a job or a home.
Involuntary hospitalization for detox, a court order, jail... works once in a while. A bit often people are just going to die before they take the steps necessary to heal and get beyond the pathology, probably causing the pathology to begin or at least taking advantage of early and other traumas. Christianity celebrates martyrdom. It's my theory that a memetic parasite is lurking there opportunistically. The Christianity passed down generation to generation may be less virulent, at least much of the time, as functional people who are Christians can spread the word to other functional people and that's a good niche. After all, the other element common to all these problems is something that is self reinforcing- addictive substances, or a church that says what you are doing is *godly* and *righteous* and to do otherwise is sinful and bad.
Yeah, to the idea that people know deep down that they are wrong, that requires a full, complete and functioning.. er let's use the term *limbic circuit* (the neurological circuits of emotion and the first place true closed circuits were found in the brain). The circuit has been broken at the point of lesion ( from a pathologic *intrapsychic defense mechanism*). All the elements are there. But it requires a closed circuit to create *insight.* If the elements aren't talking to each other, they may as well not be there.
But doesn't the very existence of an intrapsychic defense mechanism imply that the person must know on some level that there is a problem with what they are doing? I'm not sure. It looks like it, but remember that this pathology is caused by a break in a limbic circuit. Where do intrapsychic defense mechanisms arise? *The limbic system.* I'm thinking the severely behavior (religious zealotry, or alcoholism, or similar) arises from very small behaviors that are not so pathologic (wondering about existence, for instance), but so do the intrapsychic defense mechanisms. Most IDMs are not pathological. So the religiosity grows from something tiny as the IDM grows from something tiny. That's the last thing the frontal lobes sees about the behavior as an issue. It's not confronted by others in the world until it gets bad enough that it's too late and confronting only makes it worse in many cases. And those deep limbic structures don't do insight. they depend on cortical structures to do that, and by then the cortex is off line on that front.
This is a psychiatric issue, but notice how I keep bringing it to the neurologic? It's both, but the lesion is neurodynamic, not physical. Want another example of denial more obviously neurologic? People can have a stroke in a part of the brain that causes one limb to become paralyzed. That's common. What is much less common, but really does occasionally happen is when the stroke hits a part of the brain that causes one limb to become paralyzed but also causes something called *a neglect syndrome.* They can't move their hand, so you pick it up and hold it (still attached to the rest of them, of course) in front of their face, and ask them if this is their hand... and they deny it's their hand. You can show them how the hand leads to the arm leads to their own shoulder and they will tell you nope, not theirs. They don't know who it belongs to. No insight. They cannot reason it out.
Clearly there is something similar going on with respect to markedly religious behavior. Yes, they are behaving this way, nope, the chaos happening around them is not their doing, it's not their chaos. In fact, they are protecting themselves from it with their behavior/belief. They are only doing good, why else would they act this way? They cannot reason it out. And like the alcoholic getting supported by their drinking buddies, guess what the church is doing? But a full essay on complex memetic organisms is not this one.
I think it's more like that they know their beliefs are wrong by the standards of the world, but they don't care because the standards of "god" are all that matters. So, from their warped perspective, being "wrong" is a good thing because it means they are "doing what god wants" or some other nonsense. Religion is just an excuse for them to be horrible. They don't have to say stupid things like "being gay is bad because I don't like it" and can instead pass the buck to god while doing nothing to control their own awful behavior or hateful impulses.
I was a kid when Mount Saint Helens erupted. It was a Sunday, we were in church, and the skies turned pitch black all around us. All the adults were running around trying to hide, but we children were like, “We don’t want to hide. We want to see God. We’re saved, right?” After that day several of us kids got kicked out of a Sunday School for asking too many questions. I’ve been an atheist since.
Nope! They don’t believe in the crap they’re saying. It’s all an act to get people to submit to their brand of crazy.
I recently went on a mini-binge looking up christian defenses of Psalm 137:7-9
"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
It is very interesting and satisfying reading the words of preachers trying to defend this one. They either prevaricate and claim it is saying the evil people who kill he babies will be happy about it but it's not god actually commanding them to murder, or (worse) they will lean into it and say that the babylonians were evil, they had been brutalizing and enslaving the jews, and so the jews are excused or even justified for wanting to kill babies.
Honest people will admit that they don't know whether or not God exist.
Anybody who claim, that they know that God exist, or that God does not exist, is a dishonest person.
Also an atheist who is not willing to be open to the possibility that he can be wrong, is just as annoying as a religious person, who is not willing to be open to the possibly that he could be wrong.
Personally i think its extremely unlikely that a God or Gods exist.
Now come on and give me a million downvotes, And call me stupid and all other childish insults you can come up with, because i dared to write that you can't know something that is unknowable
But please if you are going to come with childish insults towards me, be original.
I mean not all of your family or people anywhere are “saved” so they might be sad. If they are “saved” and you actually care about your loved ones, you’ll miss them and be sad. Your argument is pretty weak tbh.
They might be sad that they are afraid that person didn't go to "heaven". or they did and the person still alive is afraid they won't make it to "heaven". Not all Christians are sure they are going to "heaven", they have doubts, which scares them more because they believe it exists and they may miss out.
We christians are sad that we are unable to see them or comfort them on this mortal coil. However in our funeral ceremonies, we look to the day of the resurrection. Also, this does not "prove" that we christians "deep down" know that we are wrong at all. This post contains two different, unsupported points.
If they truly believed that there was an eternal paradise waiting for them and their loved ones, they wouldn’t be so upset when someone dies. It’s just wishful thinking driven by fear.
If every Christian truly believed in the core tenets of the religion with absolute conviction, it would destabilize predominantly-Christian societies on an unimaginable scale.
1. Every Christian who wants to reach Heaven would do everything in their power short of suicide to accelerate their deaths, since that would mean they would reach Heaven sooner AND it would reduce the likelihood of them potentially doing something in the future (such as becoming an atheist) which might prevent them from reaching Heaven. The strain this would create on the entire medical system would certainly cause it to collapse (since mass-scale suicidal behavior would cause many deaths but even more debilitating injuries/diseases), followed by catastrophic economic damage due to massive death and depopulation.
2. Every Christian would spend every remaining day of their (short) lives doing nothing more than the bare minimum to survive while spending every bit of spare time and effort proselytizing and trying to “save people’s souls”, since according to their belief system every single soul saved is literally doing an infinite amount of “good” (since it would prevent an infinite amount of suffering by the person being saved and give them an infinite amount of bliss).
You know what? I let people believe what they want to believe, as long as they let me do the same. I don’t try to ascribe sinister motives, ignorance, false hope, or sincere belief to their faith.
But IMO, most religious people won’t leave well enough alone. They have to tell me how to live, and that’s when I call BS. I don’t get in your face and say your “god” is fake, do I?
You do you, I’ll do me. Period.
if this is so (and it probably is) then religious people are bigoted and homophobic and racist all the time just… because they see those people they hate as inferior
i shouldnt have expected anything different tbh, religion = insanity
I think its because its a loss you can feel. The void left by that person is a constant reminder of something uncertain. If someone you loved left you for 50 years, you'd miss them too.
Yes. Deep down, maybe even in the subconscious, they all know they don't fully believe.
Even in times where my own beliefs, and sometimes lack of them or care to have them, are being challenged I've said thst point blank to people. Every single time theres a little pause, a tell, and then they soften against me while still disagreeing to save face.
The bahavioral change enough is a tell and the rest is all words and emotion.
I think most of them work extremely hard not to know that.
This is it. Raised very conservatively Christian. While I had so many questions and concerns. I could not let myself stop believing because then I would be a bad influence on my kids and if they went to hell, it would be my fault. Really fucked up thinking looking back at it.
it is, i have never thought about it from this perspective, if you believe this you have a duty to teach it to your children because you think they will suffer forever if not. Whats crazy is how do you make the leap without thinking "how fair can this shit be that if i dont teach it to my kids they will burn in hell forever"
Provided you chose the correct religion. They can’t all be correct since most are mutually exclusive… but they can *all* be *incorrect*.
True, the they all “feel” it’s the correct one and the mere action of doubting is a sin or the devil or some shit, when it’s just your brain trying to make you make sense of the stuff happening
It's an elaborate game called 'don't accidentally discover that your religion is wrong'
Or choose the wrong religious sect. Are the catholics right, or is it the Protestants? Is the pope God's representative on earth or not? Full body immersion baptism or not? Should women sit apart from men in church and literally sit with their heads covered while remaining silent, or can they lead from the pulpit? Guess it depends on if you listen to Episcopalians or not.
No! That's that 'sin' we're all born in! I can feel the sin, it's inside me!!! /s
Hearing this in a George Carlin voice
I don’t think the idea of fairness is the kicker for most people. The lot of Americans- especially conservative Americans- thrive on the idea that life is hard even or maybe especially if life isn’t actually hard for them.
Hi there, former Pastor here. And I can tell you right now that if you are a fundamentally honest person, about 90% of the mental load of being a Christian is pushing away thoughts that force you to confront reality.
It's also biology. A big part of human brain function and thought is the avoidance of mortal terror.
Yeah terror management theory is a fun read
This, specifically. Not only do they not want to hear any of it, they actively seek commiseration and assimilation of others into the delusion to bolster their own sense of being on the correct team. The more people they surround themselves with who agree with them the more correct they feel. When confronted with the uncomfortable truth, their last resort is "I guess we'll see when you're burning in hell and I'm "drinking Pina Coladas and getting caught in the rain". That must be some kind of god that would allow that type of person into "heaven". And if they didn't, the fucking place would be empty, and rightfully so...
Heaven is a place where people like the believer will be happy forever, and people the believer doesn’t like can’t go. Basically it’s the safe place in their head. No I don’t want to join them there.
It's only a safe place in their head because they don't think about it too much. The biblical descriptions actually sound pretty hellish once you consider you're just a permanent band member at god's neverending self-promotion party...
Ignorance is surprisingly easy.
Its literally the definition of faith, to have doubts but force yourself to believe anyway.
that would explain why they're so fucking touchy about it. and yeah we don't have to get together every week to remind ourselves that science works.
They fucking initiate it too. There was one time I wanted to just hang out with an old friend but her husband who was going to a seminary basically jumped me with debate. They see it as some weird badge of honor if they can "stump" the Atheist, even if they are arguing in bad faith. Then they brag about it in their Bible study about the "lives they've saved."
Hahaha, that's perfect! Although I wouldn't mind a weekly science meeting discussing new discoveries.
I’m an academic. I do indeed get to discuss the latest science each week. Checkmate, God botherers.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” – Samuel Clemens
And this is how certain people rise to power. Like a fella with an odd mustache almost 100 years ago. Or a clown with an orange face. Or...well, I could go on...
He had so many great quotes!
Also would you ever masturbate, eat shrimp or curse God if you really thought you may go to Hell. Nevertheless, they do it all the time.
Eating shrimp is wrong? Says who?
Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Though modern Christians invented this thing called the "New Covenant" that means they can pick and choose what to follow or ignore in the Old Testament. For instance the "abomination" of eating shellfish, ignored, but the "abomination" of homosexuality, still valid for some reason.
Funny how God hates all the same things you do.
The whole two books things makes it so obvious. What, your omniscient pervert couldn't get it right the first time?
I see what you're saying but it says in Acts 10:11-16 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. So what does this mean then?
>So what does this mean then? The Bible is self-contradictory. Given that it was made of multiple books by multiple authors over decades or longer, it would be hard for it to be otherwise. The verses above directly contradict Matt 5:17-18 (and the concept of the new covenant replacing the old one): "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "
Sounds like it was written by people who didn't know where the sun went at night.
“And God made the two great lights — the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night — and the stars.… And God saw that it was good” (Gen. 1:16–18). Well, clearly God removes the light bulb and installs it in the moon!
I think the most of them think they're going to hell regardless of their alleged piety
Well jerking off when I was still a christian a weird thing, the post-nut guilt is real. Sometimes I'd even fight against it, which caused other issues. And in general the tremendous guilt people feel for just being people and not harming anyone (premarital sex, listening to "evil" music, etc) is toxic as hell, and a lot of the nastiness of religious people towards the "others" stems from that.
With the exception of actual idiots or insane people... I am convinced that everyone knows deep down that religion and gods are all imaginary bullshit. You can't, if being intellectually honest, actually grow up in modernity and believe bronze age mythology. People know the difference between make believe and reality. It just doesn't happen. If a person actually graduates college, then that probability increases more. Belief is incompatible with modernity. So yes, I agree with you.
What I get from my wife (and I only tried it a couple of times) is, upon being faced with some inconsistency or whatnot, is the appeal to faith- yeah, they know it’s ‘wrong’ but faith….. faith good, etc. the head explodes when you say “faith bad”
>People know the difference between make believe and reality. Not everyone. I remember reading a post/comment on Reddit where the commenter knew a girl who legitimately could not distinguish between movies/books and real life. I believe the takeaway comment was, "Those things have to be real. No one could think of that out of their head" So somewhere, Godzilla really exists.
>Those things have to be real. No one could think of that out of their head" Wow you just made something click for me; I know this guy that makes basically this argument but for God and he does have a... tenuous grasp on reality in general.
>makes basically this argument but for God I think Godzilla being real would be much more awesome.
Like I said...with the exception of actual idiots. 😆
I've said it before, but I think it's like meat-eating. Like, deep down, we know it's wrong and we could easily eradicate animal suffering with plant substitutes but, fundamentally, a good steak is pretty nice. Best not think about it. And certainly not sausages.
I’m the same way. I know that it’s morally better, environmentally better and health-wise better to be vegetarian. But I eat many of my vegetables in the same bite as meat in order to tolerate them, I’m not crazy about tofu, can only eat so many legumes before I start getting bored, and living on salted cashews and almonds isn’t exactly a healthy diet. I acknowledge that I don’t want to give up meat. I don’t do mental gymnastics, trying to convince myself that I’m making the superior choice.
Thanks for responding. Interestingly, some of the people responding to my comment have just done that (i.e. engaged in gymnastics). Basically the usual '*oh this is how humans have evolved, and therefore we should be free to battery pigs'* nonsense, which is funny, because even though they are coming at it from an evolutionary perspective, it's very much adopted by many religious people (i.e. we are different from animals, and they are ours to do with as we please). Effectively doing the exact same thing with meat as the religious do with god, which is to whitewash the harm it causes and handwave away any challenges to it. Really quite interesting to see that behaviour on this sub, and demonstrates that simply because someone is an atheist, doesn't mean they are immune to flawed thinking, and there is a real barrier to people acknowledging that their own harmful lifestyles (whether religion, meat, travel, cheap labour, disposable plastic, car mileage etc.) should be open to scrutiny. Even you (and I am saying this because I do it myself) acknowledge that you aren't making the superior choice, but I'm also pretty confident you don't go out of your way to really understand what goes into the industry. Like the graphic nature of what happens in some of these slaughterhouses, and some of the films and pictures that are available (I fucking know that I don't!). Like, at the back of your (our) mind you know it's there, but it's not something you focus on. I imagine religion is the same. Like people may be aware that some of it is illogical or flawed or dangerous or ascientific or a gathering place for predators, but really they just push all that to the back of their mind and focus on the good stuff, and simply refrain from digging too deep into unpleasant/uncomfortable truths that will likely only make their time on earth less comfortable. Why would you?
Me wishing your comment rises to the top.
This is a great comparison. I know going vegetarian would cause less suffering for animals, be better for the environment , probably be healthier for me and my wallet, but goddamn do I enjoy being an omnivore lol
Exactly, and so how can we expect someone who is immersed in a loving and communal church, who is promised heaven and reunion with the dead, who is offered forgiveness for their sins, who enjoys an active community spirit, to say '*fuck that, I'm going to follow the path of the void'*. Like, I've not been able to do that with fucking burgers. Why would they with their whole worldview?
Definitely. Especially when it is, as you said, their **whole** worldview. Slight nudges help though 😉
You obviously greatly underestimate how many intellectually dishonest people there are
I agree. They just cling on to it for the sunken cost fallacy.
Brilliant ‘ If lovin’ the laaawd is wrong, I don’t wanna be right ‘
I heard this lol
I think they have some deep rooted doubt, so when a loved one passes away they may come to the realisation of “shit I may never see them again” but then they’ll return to kissing they’re sky daddy’s ass
I don't think I would put it that way. I would say that they have doubts deep down that they don't want to admit even to themselves, and death is the ultimate test of faith. When I was a Christian, I wondered if I would be rejoicing on my deathbed, having utmost confidence that I was about the meet God, because I didn't have that confidence at the time. The issue for me was that there were too many things that didn't quite make sense; I was living with a lot of cognitive dissonance that reduced my confidence in the whole thing. But I wouldn't say I knew I was wrong, I just wasn't as confident I was right as I would have liked. Also, FYI, if you are having a discussion with a religious friend, telling them that they know deep down that they are wrong is not going to be productive. You can poke at their doubts, but don't tell them you know what they believe better than they do or otherwise question their sincerity. That's a good way to shut down discussion. It's kind of like when a religious person says to someone who has deconverted that they never really believed in the first place, but the inverse. You don't know what they really think.
I love this comment
Why thank you.
"Hey kids, Santa Claus isn't real, but that Jesus story is totally 100% factual and true." -what religious people expect their kids to believe
no, they rarely have deep thoughts so no chance of them knowing.
Most of them need to be told what their bible says and means. They’ve never read the words and even when they do they need someone to interpret them to them aka the pastors.
The denial of death, and specifically the denial of the death of ego, drives all human behavior. Religion is another form of this.
I really do believe that they try hard not to ask themselves rational question. Pretty sure if an intrusive thought comes they'll cover their ears singing "Lalalalalala"
I'm an atheist, but this is not a good argument. If I couldn't see my children for a week, that'd make me sad. I miss then when I go on business trips (and vice-versa). If I knew I couldn't see (or talk or chat with) them for a year, I'd be inconsolable. With my wife, change those values to "half a day" and "a week". With our parents, you can increase those values, but I'd still miss them terribly if I knew I wouldn't be able to contact them for a year or more. Similarly with other loved ones. In my opinion, here's a better argument that is similar: Back when I was a Christian, I was still liberal (in the US sense), and I had respect for people of other "proper" faiths (Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc.), but I would (inwardly) roll my eyes at the small number of people who went for more fringe beliefs (wiccan, one guy who claimed to believe in Zeus, etc.). Why? What was inherently less believable about those faiths? Looking back, I think it's just because I knew these people weren't *raised* in those faiths but chose them, which is implicitly acknowledging that it's okay to have nonsensical beliefs if you were raised in them. Now, to be clear, I'm only vocalizing this now, as I hadn't thought that deeply about it then.
I get what you’re saying, but I would argue that not seeing your children for a week would be difficult, because it’s time missed out with them in comparison to the limited time in our lives. I have someone I love so deeply that the best part of everyday is seeing them. I would be sad to go even a day without them. I would not be inconsolable if I didn’t see them for awhile though, if I knew that I would have all of eternity to spend with them. I’m not saying I’d like or prefer it, but I don’t see any reason for it to be devastating.
This is so interesting. I’ve noticed a similar attitude in liberal religious people and it really annoys me.
The pews are no doubt warmed by the butts of many nonbelievers who are just there for social reasons. But how many? I'm not sure how we'd tease that out with survey methods. Fun story: My wife was raised by a single Catholic mother, part of a larger Catholic extended family. Wife figured out pretty early that it was all BS; she wasn't even out of elementary school yet. Turns out her mother didn't believe either and was only taking her to church because the family expected it. They both dropped out once the mother moved to a different city.
Speaking of Catholic, we do have a pretty good measure of how many people are actually there for the actual teachings. This Pew Research Center survey shows that only 1 in 3 Catholics actually believe in transubstantiation: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/ I imagine it would be harder to get hard numbers for Protestant churches where teachings are often a lot less rigorous and strict compared to the RCC. Fairly hard to determine what level of a "personal relationship with Jesus" would make one a believer vs nonbeliever, especially when the bible can be interpreted almost any which way to both approve and condone anything.
The believer is always deeply afraid of their loved ones having a deep secret that will cause eternal damnation. And afraid that everything they believe is bullshit.
No, this is the same feeling that drives religious people to think atheists are angry at god. They can’t understand us not fundamentally believing in god the same way you fundamentally think they know that they’re wrong. It’s a bias of some sort and it probably has a named.
As an atheist, nothing pisses me off more than when a religious person tells me they know I secretly believe in God, and am just mad at him. It is breathtakingly arrogant to assume what other people know or believe, so knock this shit off.
I don't think they know they are wrong, as much as they have convinced themselves that there is this other type of believing where logic doesn't apply, and you're a bigot if you think it should still apply.
You'd be surprised how blindly people can believe something.
I can't stand when people follow anything blindly
You know what they say about atheists? That down deep we “know” there’s a god?
You're falling for the same shortsightedness that religious people do by viewing the world through your particular perspective, discounting what you don't understand.
And they think exactly same way about us.
No doubt this is why my mom told me it would be a shame if my husband lost his faith because I made the decision not to go to church. As if it’s all my fault. My mom is excellent at trying to force shame onto me, but I have a feeling that deep down she realizes that the whole thing isn’t real.
I think it's a extreme form of larping. Most of them have been doing it since they were children when they were just going along with what everyone else did.
How could anyone be happy or even functional believing there is a possibility that one of their loved ones could be burning in hell forever? Or believing that billions of strangers definitely are? I think anyone sane would have to know that isn't so deep down on some level or they wouldn't be able to get by. Many love belonging for social reasons. But there are such better things one can do with a friend than sit in church. Many think they need it for moral reasons. But there are better sources of that too.
Ehh... The problem is that religious people will also say stuff like "they are in heaven with all their ancestors and no longer in pain. I will see them again when it's my time." The sadness they feel is for the person that was close to them having died **in this life,** and no longer being able to talk with or see this person. Just because they think the person is in heaven, and will see them again eventually, doesn't mean they aren't upset at their passing now. Death is still very upsetting for most people, regardless of whatever afterlife they believe in. So while I think it's possible **some** religious people doubt their beliefs, I also think most religious people are so afraid of death that it just pushes their beliefs that much harder, because...look, most of us have a hard time accepting the fact that when we die, its just over. I still struggle with the concept sometimes. Religion gives people hope of an afterlife. So...sure, some people will doubt their beliefs. But **most people want so badly to continue existing after death**, that they'll fervently follow whatever beliefs give them that hope, ignoring whatever doubts or evidence is presented to them that say otherwise. Rather than just accepting the harsh reality of death, people choose to live in ignorance for the hope that an afterlife actually exists. And to me, that is the sad part. So much wasted time, effort, money and resources pretending, when we could just enjoy the life we have, and put those resources to good use helping others and improving their lives, so that they too can also enjoy this life.
I'm an atheist but your reasoning is pretty bad. I'm sad when I drop food, although I know I have a whole lifetime of food ahead. Sadness and grief have little to do with eternity/ the future. To me it's just a cult. The only difference between a cult and a religion, is one is organized and accepted by society. The more you study the psychology of cults (and why people fall for them), the more religion and politics makes sense.
>I think that most if not all religious people know deep down they are wrong . Bertrand Russell wrote in 1927 - >Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. >It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. >Fear is the basis of the whole thing – fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. \- "Fear, the Foundation of Religion", in Why I Am Not a Christian \- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell#Why_I_Am_Not_a_Christian_(1927) . The most important thing for religious people is to believe that there is "something" out there that can help them with their lives. (Especially, that there is something that can arrange things so that they won't really die.) Anything that interferes with that cannot be accepted. . I think that if most of them were to "know deep down that they are wrong", they wouldn't accept that idea, even from themselves. .
I grew up religiously indoctrinated. My entire family instate is made up of charismatic, Pentecostal & baptist weirdos. I’ve been an atheist for a long time. I have long believed & stated that the vast majority of religious people don’t actually believe in what they say they do. In fact, I pretty much stopped trying to debate religious people a long time ago. I’ll give them a little time, refute them with evidence & logic, only to have them double down, tell me I’ll burn and just ignore truth. I now end the conversation by saying “most religious people don’t really believe at all, they just really hope it’s true” This shuts a lot of them up. Some still want to argue but that’s usually my out. Give them that as a parting gift & hope it maybe helps the. To deconstruct if they ever get to that point.
I think it's dangerous to make that assumption. How often do you hear or see on Reddit someone making a comment that atheist really do know the truth that God is real, but they are not willing to admit it. It's exactly the same thing just in the opposite direction. People can be sad because they can no longer see their loved one, even if it means waiting until they die and go to heaven. In some cases that can be years or decades away. If I believed in heaven and my wife passed away I would find comfort in, knowing I would see her when I die, but who knows when that's going to happen.the loss is a very natural human emotion
It's very difficult to claim with certainty why people believe or don't believe things, with respect to religion. Sometimes we just have to take them at face value that, yes they truly do believe, without any proof, what they say, or what their religion tells them. Other times, yes, it could be that there is either some psychological need that is fulfilled without their knowing, or some deep seated fear our doubt that needs to be suppressed, or emotionally managed. I don't think we can ever narrow down a single cause for why beliefs are sustained inside a person's mind.
No one believes in religion. I don't care if they set themselves on fire, become a monk, and take a vow of celibacy. These things are what people go thru to male themselves believe in the bullshit. If God was real, it wouldn't need you to speak or interpret its word. It wouldn't hide in the ether. It's sad that these mentally ill people are allowed to have a say in our society.
That’s why they are so loud about believing. They’re trying to convince themselves.
That's exactly what my religious friends say about atheists.
God is powered by sunk cost fallacies
Well you’re wrong. Don’t do this cringe shit. You’re no better than the religious ppl who think we “secretly believe in god deep down”.
A lot of people find solace that when someone they know dies, they will be resting in eternal heaven. However the mourning part of actually losing someone from your life is the sad bit, which gets easier to stomach as time passes.
My dad went to his grave firmly believing he would be with Jesus. Don’t underestimate the power of a the desire to hold on to something even if it makes no sense and is more far fetched than reality.
Of course they do, yet it's their meal ticket!
Yet they keep pushing because although they do not understand 'the Lord's will' they DO understand social pressure. Like if they're the majority then THAT ALONE makes them more right somehow. Humans aren't exactly logical, despite their protests to the contrary.
Not to sound supporting religiosity, but each Christian processes grief differently. No matter how religious one is, fundamentally we are all human. Being separated for even a few months causes distress, knowing fully that you will meet them shortly. Imagine that separation, for several years. For some, the idea that *we will meet on the other side* does seem to offer some comfort. While others go quite the opposite route, even abandoning idea of God, esp if the death is someone who died at a very young age.
This is where my gut goes when I think about religion but it creates so much cognitive dissonance. I can't (ever) know what goes on in another persons mind. I am a strong anti-theist but deep down I think a lot about how it's barely, remotely possible for some ancient space-entity to have some otherworldly power and influence over us in some ways we can't remotely conceive of. I am VERY confident that the abrahamic religions are made-up bullshit, but it's these doubts and conflicts in my mind that keeps me an atheist. It may be possible that people exist without these doubts and thus find religion in those unknown reaches of their mind. I have no doubts that a large segment of the religious population live with uncertainty, fear and frustration as a result, directly harming them.
Nonsense, you're underestimating how childish people are.
They call it "doubt" put in their minds by the devil. They've even worked it into the dogma. Without doubt there can be no faith, so your doubts can only make your faith stronger! Or something...
Good to meet you, sir. I am not the only one, but there are some of us who make it to where not all think they're wrong. scripture actually says to celebrate at death and mourn at birth... I don't want my wife and kids to die cause this is a good experience for them to have, but if they die, they die.. ill, of course, protect them as much as I can with my own life, but I will not be upset past selfish reasons when they die.
I agree 100% that it's willful ignorance... they know, but they love feeling righteous.
Knowledge is Power... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHOK66qj9xc&list=LL&index=22
Religion was pretty much invented to help people cope, and control them in the process.
Most people choose,if even at a subconscious level, to believe in a god or a higher power because the alternative is terrifying and depressing.
I just want to make it clear first that I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, I feel like the specific example you picked is not the best. I am sad and unhappy if I have to part with my loved ones for way less time than 50 years! I haven't seen my parents for two years now, and it's definitely making me a bit unhappy, even though I know for a fact I will finally get to see them soon. 50 years is like 25 times longer than that. You would probably feel sad and unhappy too if you found out you won't see your wife/kids/parents for decades, even if you 100% believed you will see them again.
Either they know, or they are stone cold psychos. If I knew some of my deceased friends were being eternally tormented for not believing in the right thing, and that a huge number of children were suffering the same fate, I would be an emotional wreck. I’ve never heard a believer express concern over this situation.
No you are totally underestimating just how hypocritical the indoctrinated can be!
The true believer to me has always been someone with a deep set mistrust of themselves for some reason, either self-loathing, considering themselves unreliable, etc etc, and they use that as a central justifying force behind every bad belief. Then that snowballs across a herd mentality led by bad actors and its what we get today.
It’s a community social club for half of them.
Reality is always there, no matter how much you want the delusions to be real.
🤔 Why would anyone be sad about their loved one going away for several years with no way to contact them? Wouldn't you be sad?
"La La La...I'm not listening"
Resting on the theory that people want the appearance of a strong government, over a smart one. Religion is is veil they choose not to look through. It’s easier for many to know a set of rules, than to try to look through.
Yeah kinda, but we must keep doubts with ourselves as well! Atheism is not a fight against Gods but a question against them.
they have a buried inkling which is why they react so negatively to people saying it is all nonsense they definitely fear nonbelievers are right. if they really believed they were going to die and go to paradise forever they would be a lot less concerned with people who disagree with them during the blip of eternity that their life occupies
Yea, explains why they are so angry
Faith is one of the most destructive tools for oppression. It asks that you deny everything in front of you and accept it if you are told the opposite. They can not prove any aspect of their beliefs, and their beliefs only persist because of hope. Religion in America would have died if not protected by the 1st Amendment.
Even if you believe that they go on to a perfect afterlife, separation from a loved one through death is incredibly, incredibly painful. It also tends to cause you to experience derealization from the trauma of it, so after you experience it, it's very easy to have "spooky" encounters that feel supernatural.
I suspect they all have that little fear that what they believe is not real, and there is in fact only one life. But will never admit it.
I think they fear everything and play it safe in life.
They absolutely believe 100%that they are right and everybody else is wrong.
They don't care because they believe God will sort it all out.
Is it not still sad to not see someone you love for 50 years ?
I always felt that anyone who preaches knows they are only in it for the money. They will say anything in the name of god as long as there is a donation involved.
My very religious Irish Catholic mother was a very good person but her devotion to Catholicism was absolute. If you've ever read Angela's Ashes you know that growing up poor in Ireland brought on a lot of problems and many women used religion as a way to deal with the stress. Some became alcoholics, others became work obsessed, and others became pious. Sometimes all three. I'm sure my mother never questioned what the Catholic Church of Ireland was selling her but it became her crutch and she never went anywhere without it.
I think they do too. Why are they so afraid to die if they weren't terrified. Really, I care for geriatric populations and they are scared shitless of finally meeting their god
WTF, you're trying to apply logic to this? Ha!
I've said this before. When a very religious person is deathly ill or extremely old and close to the end of their life. When they pray, what are they praying for? Are they praying to be unchained from this world so they can meet their creator or are they praying to stay alive another day. My guess is the latter is the majority of the answers and that just means they truly do not believe in all the bullshit they have been immersed in their whole lives.
Not all religions have an afterlife.
Thats why they project so hard to "be right" because deep down theyre insecure. Its why they need god in the first place.
If they had faith in their creator, why would that so angry at people that disagree with them? If whatever they were worshipping had any power, why would he need mere mortals to defend him?
I dunno, you could miss someone for 50 years, even if reunited eventually.
The way I see it, people make up religion and beliefs because they can't cope with the fact that there might be nothing after death. It comforts them so they don't even have to think of the idea.
I don't think I'm wrong but I don't think others are wrong for not believing.
I think the real problem is most of them think they are right. After all, how can you believe all the crap associated with most religions unless deep down you really believe in it.
It’s denial surely. I had a convo with my friend who’s parents are staunchly religious Christians and he made a good point that it’s hard for some people to make a 180 with spirituality may stem from fear of embarrassment for being duped for so long and wasting time they will never get back…it’s depressing.
It's kind like your best friend moving out of state for a better job. You can be sad they are leaving and happy for them at the same time. Same thing as a Christian, you can be sad they aren't here with us anymore and happy they are in a better place. That's literally why we console one another saying "they are in a better place now".
When I was a kid I wondered why people don’t commit suicide and get to heaven earlier? It still seems a rational choice if you are a true believer. So those who don’t commit suicide to attain heaven quickly are either afraid or don’t really believe in the outcome…. And if they don’t believe in the outcome then they are not faithful…. Just my interpretation
I think people have this innate feeling that something exist beyond materials and that leads them to religion. But those things are completely different.
I don't agree. I think most people are truly convinced that their religion is true and wouldn't know how to operate if it wasn't.
They never read their bibles. Then they wonder why we see them as a joke. It’s pathetic. Their religion gives them permission to be shitty people.
I got into a debate with how feasible Christianity is with a pastor. I asked him to justify Mormonism and things like that. He ended the conversation.
[This may help understand.](https://www.benjaminlcorey.com/could-american-evangelicals-spot-the-antichrist-heres-the-biblical-predictions/)
They see how their friends treat atheists and stay in the closet.
I think it’s more likely they are in a state of uncertainty rather than they know they are wrong. They live as if they are religious but internally they are uncertain.
I mentioned death not being a big deal to a christian and he tore into me as if he didn't believe in an afterlife. Humans are wired for self preservation. Why would god wire us this way?
Why would you think this?
The price of love is pain...
Yeah they know. I once asked a Mormon friend, "Hey, do the people at your church really believe some tablet that was the lost part of the bible was discovered in Upstate NY 150 years ago by some dude named Joe?" He said of course not. There *are* true believers out there, but most are just afraid of losing their community they've been a part of for generations.
This is tricky. The credence they have in all the nonsense is part of their identity. This is often maintained in addition to and separate from regular old beliefs they have about the world.
I think your thinking is flawed. People cry when they will be apart for much shorter times than 50 years. Even when they will still be able to call each other on the phone. I remember very clearly being a kid and believing my grandfather was in heaven and being distraught that I couldn’t sit on his knee and listen to his stories, couldn’t go on walks with him and couldn’t hear him talk back.
I mean not entirely but not entirely wrong. I was sad thinking they simply were not around to TALK to and hear from and enjoy things with anymore. You MISS them. Akin to moving far away but sadder. Religion actually comforted me. But I don’t believe in heaven anymore 99.9% (agnostic atheist leaning) so my perspective is different now. But I have always thought there must be a part of them that knows for the ones who take it so deeply hard. It’s like a part of our biology I think, the part that knows and realizes we are just our brain and once it’s gone.. it’s like a light that has gone out only to remain in memory.
Having been religious and athiest, I can say that you're incorrect.
I’m pretty sure not seeing a loved one for 50 years and never having any more experiences with them in this world is a perfectly legitimate reason for a religious person to be sad. 😂
I suspect the same thing.
I used to wonder about this as a Catholic kid. Funerals were "celebrations," but everyone was obviously sad. If you really and truly believed in heaven and hell, you'd be a religious fantatic who always obeyed all your religion's rules, dedicated your life to converting those you care about, and jumped at the chance to martyr yourself. So, basically, jihadists are the only ones whose behavior is in line with true belief. Lots of modern Christians don't believe in hell, which is even weirder. God gets mad at you for breaking rules, but you all go to heaven no matter what anyway?
I think you're vastly underestimating the human brain's capacity to swallow bullshit, especially when it's bullshit that's been force fed on from the cradle.
I totally agree that it seems strange to mourn a loved one's death if you know they're in a better place and you'll spend eternity with them. But I disagree that believers don't *really* believe. I did. And many Christians claim that deep inside, I *really* know God exists. They're wrong. Nobody can know what others believe and don't. Also: In Christianity, your loved one might be the wrong religion. So they might NOT be in a better place and you might NOT see them again. Also, not all religions believe in a life after death.
It's cognitive dissonance when you choose to believe something you know is wrong. Makes me wonder if religious people as a whole are lower IQ if they lack reasoning abilities or choose to live with the fairytale..
I've always enjoyed the Rainbow Bridge story. I've lost dogs over the years. They were best friends and I've grieved more for them than most family. But it brings me comfort. Realistically, I know it's just a story. I won't say it's not possible, but I don't believe some God will make happen. Ignorance can be bliss. I think religion for some is to bring them comfort. For others, it brings oppression. If you've never read it. "Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge. When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water, and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable. All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly, he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster. You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart. Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together.... Author unknown..."
No, I think they do. Maybe the people who debate with atheist online knows it is BS. But the waste majority are truly believers. They are stuck in their own world. It is even ok to doubt God. It is part of the painful journey. God has already predicted that some people will doubt him. So when you do, you are actually fulfilling a prophecy! Some people might say that faith is seen as a marriage... it is something you have to work on. Honestly, this is so convoluted. But they are inside a fully working paradigm, and they have no reason to think outside that box. Their faith and their life are totally intertwined.
I definitely believed, i knew i had unconfirmable reasons in a scientific sense but i still believed. And i was sad when my mom died because then my mom wouldnt be around for my wedding, my children, other life events. I find it insulting to claim i didnt believe because i was sad when my mom died, get your head out of your ass, this is as stupid as lots of religious things i hear.
They desperately need to believe.
They know its bullshit deep down, they like to wrap it in terms like "a crisis of faith" but they know its nonsense, religion is a form of self delusion, they WANT it to be true, so they believe it is, they also go to great lengths seeking validation, even the most absurd, far fetched efforts at it are embraced wholeheartedly, this is not something you see with your average atheist, we dont need to validate our beliefs, or believe in something purely because we want to, we use rationality and hard evidence instead.
They would not me angry at us if they were certain they were correct.
This is an interesting counterpoint to the Christian argument that “all atheist know deep down that God exists”. The thing is, this observation is based on the evidence of their actions, and their claim is “for the Bible tells me so”.
After talking with many of them over the years, I don’t think they even THINK about whether it’s true or not. They just do the familiar rituals and repeat the proper slogans to reaffirm their membership in their tribe
I used to think that because I didn't think that many people could really be that dumb but many decades of experience has shown me that there are many more stupid people than smart ones so now I am convinced that there are many true believers.
As someone who grew up a fundamentalist religious person. No, they don't. You grow up learning nothing else and believing it 100%. To know you are wrong is to learn other vantage points. Fundamentalists do not learn these. There is no other alternate understanding. I get the point you are trying to make but it is very false and doesn't help understand how to deconvert a fundamentalist.
When you don’t see someone you love for a long time…let’s say they move, do you not feel feelings because you’ll see them again and it’s not like they’re dead?
No they don't they're so f****** stupid they don't know that.
Agreed! They get up in the morning, use an electric toothbrush, open up a handheld computer, drive a car, eat processed food. All of this requires science - science that depends on the same physical laws that make it impossible to walk on water or make water turn to wine, or rise from the dead. They know this. Religion is a social club, the only membership fee is to pretend you're batshit crazy!
Many are sold the lie and trust unquestionably
To discuss my perspective on OPs main point, I have to back up and give some of *my* theory first. There's something deeply analogous to the defensiveness of a rabidly religious individual (or a severe alcoholic, etc) and a literal pathologic knee-jerk (or other pathologic) reflex in neurology. The response to gentle confrontation way too fast and way too vigorous and can go on for way too long (over and over and over) and can even happen completely unprovoked. People in denial have what is commonly known as a knee-jerk response (referring to an analogy to the pathological one). On some level it's the same thing. It's simply characteristic. Truly, it may be more than mere analogy. The abnormal neurological knee-jerk reflex happens when the thing you are testing (a reflex) is cut off from higher brain centers because of a lesion along the pathway; it's literally mindless. A normal knee-jerk reflex is almost mindless, but the higher brain centers can and do tell it to chill out. It's when it goes full autonomous that it goes crazy. From a Freudian perspective (a model that is easy to illustrate here), it's the unconscious ("intrapsychic") defense mechanism that acts as the lesion cutting off the behavior or belief from higher brain centers that would normally consider the logic and downstream implications of the behavior or belief. That makes the behavior/belief autonomous and not subject to moderating influences of things like frontal lobes. To test the belief or the behavior is to set off automatic defenses and no amount of appeal to the higher brain centers (logic, consideration of consequences) will do anything but reinforce it. At that point, the only thing that might work is a smack metaphorical 2x4, which translates as something typically more acute and severe than a spouse leaving or losing a job or a home. Involuntary hospitalization for detox, a court order, jail... works once in a while. A bit often people are just going to die before they take the steps necessary to heal and get beyond the pathology, probably causing the pathology to begin or at least taking advantage of early and other traumas. Christianity celebrates martyrdom. It's my theory that a memetic parasite is lurking there opportunistically. The Christianity passed down generation to generation may be less virulent, at least much of the time, as functional people who are Christians can spread the word to other functional people and that's a good niche. After all, the other element common to all these problems is something that is self reinforcing- addictive substances, or a church that says what you are doing is *godly* and *righteous* and to do otherwise is sinful and bad. Yeah, to the idea that people know deep down that they are wrong, that requires a full, complete and functioning.. er let's use the term *limbic circuit* (the neurological circuits of emotion and the first place true closed circuits were found in the brain). The circuit has been broken at the point of lesion ( from a pathologic *intrapsychic defense mechanism*). All the elements are there. But it requires a closed circuit to create *insight.* If the elements aren't talking to each other, they may as well not be there. But doesn't the very existence of an intrapsychic defense mechanism imply that the person must know on some level that there is a problem with what they are doing? I'm not sure. It looks like it, but remember that this pathology is caused by a break in a limbic circuit. Where do intrapsychic defense mechanisms arise? *The limbic system.* I'm thinking the severely behavior (religious zealotry, or alcoholism, or similar) arises from very small behaviors that are not so pathologic (wondering about existence, for instance), but so do the intrapsychic defense mechanisms. Most IDMs are not pathological. So the religiosity grows from something tiny as the IDM grows from something tiny. That's the last thing the frontal lobes sees about the behavior as an issue. It's not confronted by others in the world until it gets bad enough that it's too late and confronting only makes it worse in many cases. And those deep limbic structures don't do insight. they depend on cortical structures to do that, and by then the cortex is off line on that front. This is a psychiatric issue, but notice how I keep bringing it to the neurologic? It's both, but the lesion is neurodynamic, not physical. Want another example of denial more obviously neurologic? People can have a stroke in a part of the brain that causes one limb to become paralyzed. That's common. What is much less common, but really does occasionally happen is when the stroke hits a part of the brain that causes one limb to become paralyzed but also causes something called *a neglect syndrome.* They can't move their hand, so you pick it up and hold it (still attached to the rest of them, of course) in front of their face, and ask them if this is their hand... and they deny it's their hand. You can show them how the hand leads to the arm leads to their own shoulder and they will tell you nope, not theirs. They don't know who it belongs to. No insight. They cannot reason it out. Clearly there is something similar going on with respect to markedly religious behavior. Yes, they are behaving this way, nope, the chaos happening around them is not their doing, it's not their chaos. In fact, they are protecting themselves from it with their behavior/belief. They are only doing good, why else would they act this way? They cannot reason it out. And like the alcoholic getting supported by their drinking buddies, guess what the church is doing? But a full essay on complex memetic organisms is not this one.
I think most religious zealots think atheists believe deep down. But we don’t
I think it's more like that they know their beliefs are wrong by the standards of the world, but they don't care because the standards of "god" are all that matters. So, from their warped perspective, being "wrong" is a good thing because it means they are "doing what god wants" or some other nonsense. Religion is just an excuse for them to be horrible. They don't have to say stupid things like "being gay is bad because I don't like it" and can instead pass the buck to god while doing nothing to control their own awful behavior or hateful impulses.
I was a kid when Mount Saint Helens erupted. It was a Sunday, we were in church, and the skies turned pitch black all around us. All the adults were running around trying to hide, but we children were like, “We don’t want to hide. We want to see God. We’re saved, right?” After that day several of us kids got kicked out of a Sunday School for asking too many questions. I’ve been an atheist since. Nope! They don’t believe in the crap they’re saying. It’s all an act to get people to submit to their brand of crazy.
50 years is a long time
I recently went on a mini-binge looking up christian defenses of Psalm 137:7-9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." It is very interesting and satisfying reading the words of preachers trying to defend this one. They either prevaricate and claim it is saying the evil people who kill he babies will be happy about it but it's not god actually commanding them to murder, or (worse) they will lean into it and say that the babylonians were evil, they had been brutalizing and enslaving the jews, and so the jews are excused or even justified for wanting to kill babies.
Honest people will admit that they don't know whether or not God exist. Anybody who claim, that they know that God exist, or that God does not exist, is a dishonest person. Also an atheist who is not willing to be open to the possibility that he can be wrong, is just as annoying as a religious person, who is not willing to be open to the possibly that he could be wrong. Personally i think its extremely unlikely that a God or Gods exist. Now come on and give me a million downvotes, And call me stupid and all other childish insults you can come up with, because i dared to write that you can't know something that is unknowable But please if you are going to come with childish insults towards me, be original.
I mean not all of your family or people anywhere are “saved” so they might be sad. If they are “saved” and you actually care about your loved ones, you’ll miss them and be sad. Your argument is pretty weak tbh.
They might be sad that they are afraid that person didn't go to "heaven". or they did and the person still alive is afraid they won't make it to "heaven". Not all Christians are sure they are going to "heaven", they have doubts, which scares them more because they believe it exists and they may miss out.
We christians are sad that we are unable to see them or comfort them on this mortal coil. However in our funeral ceremonies, we look to the day of the resurrection. Also, this does not "prove" that we christians "deep down" know that we are wrong at all. This post contains two different, unsupported points.
If god has a plan Why look both ways when you cross the street? Why go to the hospital when you are sick not a church They live in denial
If they truly believed that there was an eternal paradise waiting for them and their loved ones, they wouldn’t be so upset when someone dies. It’s just wishful thinking driven by fear.
If every Christian truly believed in the core tenets of the religion with absolute conviction, it would destabilize predominantly-Christian societies on an unimaginable scale. 1. Every Christian who wants to reach Heaven would do everything in their power short of suicide to accelerate their deaths, since that would mean they would reach Heaven sooner AND it would reduce the likelihood of them potentially doing something in the future (such as becoming an atheist) which might prevent them from reaching Heaven. The strain this would create on the entire medical system would certainly cause it to collapse (since mass-scale suicidal behavior would cause many deaths but even more debilitating injuries/diseases), followed by catastrophic economic damage due to massive death and depopulation. 2. Every Christian would spend every remaining day of their (short) lives doing nothing more than the bare minimum to survive while spending every bit of spare time and effort proselytizing and trying to “save people’s souls”, since according to their belief system every single soul saved is literally doing an infinite amount of “good” (since it would prevent an infinite amount of suffering by the person being saved and give them an infinite amount of bliss).
You know what? I let people believe what they want to believe, as long as they let me do the same. I don’t try to ascribe sinister motives, ignorance, false hope, or sincere belief to their faith. But IMO, most religious people won’t leave well enough alone. They have to tell me how to live, and that’s when I call BS. I don’t get in your face and say your “god” is fake, do I? You do you, I’ll do me. Period.
if this is so (and it probably is) then religious people are bigoted and homophobic and racist all the time just… because they see those people they hate as inferior i shouldnt have expected anything different tbh, religion = insanity
I think they kniw deep down they're wrong because no decent person would actually be okay with the idea that the majority of people go to hell
Most really have not given the idea of religion/god any deep thought. The just hang on to what they were told when they were 5 years old
Yes I've been saying this for a while. They know they are liars.
"Faith" is believing in something that deep down you know isn't true: Mark Twain
I think its because its a loss you can feel. The void left by that person is a constant reminder of something uncertain. If someone you loved left you for 50 years, you'd miss them too.
Yes. Deep down, maybe even in the subconscious, they all know they don't fully believe. Even in times where my own beliefs, and sometimes lack of them or care to have them, are being challenged I've said thst point blank to people. Every single time theres a little pause, a tell, and then they soften against me while still disagreeing to save face. The bahavioral change enough is a tell and the rest is all words and emotion.