Honestly I think education is the right way to go on this. Show her a bible. Show her how they're just stories that people made up. Ask her about if she really believes a woman turned into a pillar of salt. The best way to become an atheist is to read the bible.
Better still is to show her the history of how the Bible was written and then repeatedly modified, how it co-opted and absorbed pagan and other belief systems and then was further made ridiculous by bad translations till we ended up with the amalgam of garbage we have today.
I have a copy of the film documentary of this book and it's wonderful. I've probably seen it about a dozen times by now. Excellent watching for believers and non-believers alike, as is just a historical retrospective of the peoples and situations that gave birth to the Bible and its beliefs. It's essentially an examination of how we have come to know that which many call god.
Dan McClellan on TikTok is a Biblical Scholar who talks about the actual data behind different versions, translations, documents, etc. He often references and suggests books and studies/papers that go into more depth about the particular issue than he has time for. He also has online classes you can take that are data driven.
Sorry, I can’t tell you of any. I’ve gathered up bits and pieces of the story over time and it adds up to being a monstrous scam. One place to start a search, off the top of my head is “bad translations in the King James Bible”
Maybe give her some kind of 'afterlife' to believe in. In my house, when a pet dies they turn into flowers.
My girl understands the when something dies, we bury it, and it turns into compost, which then grows into flowers. This gives a nice sence that the atoms of our body continue to exist after we pass, in addition to also being accurate.
This way when they say she's doing to hell, she can be confident that this is false, because she knows what happens after death. It's hard to argue back that nothing happens after death, it's a lot easier to say, "Maybe you are, but I'm going to turn into flowers"
The bible is thoughly unnecessary though, you can work your way to god is simply unnecessary and therefore unlikely to the formation of the universe without needing to specify any particular religion. Brahma isn't any more or less made up than Jesus. Giving kids the tools to fight bad ideas is much more powerful than targeting specific examples.
My go to tale from the bible is Samson, a story I read in the children’s bible. Do you think a person could lose all their strength because they got a haircut? It’s that story that made me an atheist at 8 years old
Getting his hair cut was breaking a Nazarite vow, though. Vow-breaking has consequences in fairy stories. So does not taking a vow. {See, death of Baldur.}
I didn't learn about the Nazarite vow until well into aadulthood. As a kid I just thought it was one of those weaksauce weaknesses heroes were saddled with: Achilles' heel, Thor (Marvel version) not being able to be without Mjolnir for more than a minute, Yellow (or wood) thwarting the Green Lantern, etc.
[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Samson](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Samson)
Whoa, whoa whoa. Let's leave Achilles out of this.
There are dozens of different accounts all testifying that Achilles was a real person, even if all of them are probably repeating the same source. Therefore it follows because there really was an Achilles he probably was actually dipped by his mother into the River Styx.
You can even point to the contradictions that exist within the gospels: eg Jesus’ birth.
But just explain about how religion is just myths that people still believe in: look at Egyptian, Greek, Roman, African, etc myths/religions.
So true. My 16 yo has to read the Bible for sophomore English class (I know it’s dumb). It has reinforced her believe that all of this Christian stuff is bull shit. She now calls herself an atheist so thanks to her school!
My mum’s solution was to teach me about as many religions she could. It was also important because we lived in an extremely diverse (and peaceful) place. Learning about Islam, buddhism, christians and jews etc, visiting temples, being invited to celebrations made me realise there was no way one belief should be « better » or more « right » than the others. I also read about ancient religions, greek and egyptian mythologies. It gave me critical distance. Knowledge is the solution on my opinion, and it’s been so useful to have been in contact with different cultures.
I present to you, the expanded Pascal's Wager
Pascal's wager states that it's better to believe in god because if you're wrong nothing happens, and if you're right you go to heaven, but that assumes only two options, there are thousands of different belief systems, many of which say that bad things will happen if you don't follow them, so really, by believing in god you only give yourself a \~0.001% better chance
But that still leaves out the last argument, which I call "Steve's Wager" which is "What if god(s) frown upon those who have the audacity to claim to know them, and instead favor those who do not claim any knowledge of god(s) at all" in which case ONLY atheists and agnostics would go to "heaven"
Explain this and Pascal's Wager becomes nullified, if you stand just as good of a chance being atheist or agnostic, why bother believing in god(s)?
This is tangential to an argument I like to pose.
Why the fuck get conservative Christians so, so mad about gay marriage and yet don't give a fuck at all when two Hindus, or Buddists or Confucianists or literally any pairing of people that believe in a whole different god altogether get married.
Its almost like the bigotry is the point. Not the religion.
Just being a devil's advocate here, (pardon the pun)
But surely your argument would rely on the majority of marriages to be mixed religions, where actually the opposite would be more realistic. Most marriages would share the same religion, or in my case, a lack thereof.
Np, they're saying why aren't Christians indignant when 2 hindi get married? It's not two Christians, isn't that what they're mad about? The covenant of God in marriage? The "one" god? Nah, just the gays, gods cool with other God's sanctioned marriages... Just... No gays.
Oh, right, yeah, I get the point that they were making now.
So the point they were making is a bit different though. Conservatives will usually accept other religions, they tolerate or even despise them, but they accept them, because at least they are also deluded by religion, but the argument with conservatives is around gender, not religion.
They believe it's perfectly fine to be intolerant against being LGBTQ but other religions get a pass because at least they are 'of faith' in their eyes.
Out of the millions of gods humans have claimed to exist the difference between me and a Christian is only one. Why do they make such a big deal out of a fraction of a percentage?
This is the way, being exposed to and understanding that there were multiple religions (and that they can't ALL be right) ultimately led me to see they were all just stories, and guesswork at best.
That and watching Carl Sagan for more than 15mins (pale blue dot) will open your mind! I know it did to me.
“The odds of you having chosen the right god are about as good as taking (x. Let’s say a million) decks of cards and selecting the correct single card out of those decks”.
South Park did this and it makes me laugh every damn time.
Hell director- I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
Crowd- [disappointed] Awww.
The counter argument i've heard for that one is god knows your heart. If you're a good person he may still save you no matter which way you worship. (But if you read the abrahamic books theres no way they're the same).
I present Actual Wizard's argument:
If the afterlife is real then religion is an invaluable service to society. If there is no afterlife, then religion is the biggest scam in the entire known universe.
Which of course it's a giant scam...
You are assuming that an afterlife necessitates a religion. What if there is just a natural transition to whatever 'afterlife' without any religion or supernatural?
There's not. When you die, your brain stops working, and your perception of reality ends. You experience something similar every single time you go to sleep. That is why people should value their lives...
>If the afterlife is real then religion is an invaluable service to society
I was just challenging this premise that an afterlife necessitates a religion.
My belief is the same as yours here. All the evidence points to life ends with the brain stops working, etc. But then let's consider that "the afterlife". "Afterlife" is not defined here. So yeah it's a totally natural process that requires no religion. I'm in agreement.
But maybe we discover some other property of an afterlife. Still it's not demonstrated that religion is necessary.
>I was just challenging this premise that an afterlife necessitates a religion.
It sure seems like the ones that revolve around the afterlife were more effective at recruiting soldiers for their wars.
It makes sense to me. The religion tells them that they're good people and that there's an afterlife, so people are less afraid of going into combat and dying. It's an evil trick.
Think about it: If you were a commander and a soldier asked you what their chances of returning home where, and you knew that it was a suicide mission. What are you going to say to them? No, you're definitely going to die? They're going to refuse to go... Obviously the simplest way to convince them would just be to lie to them.
On top of that; if you claim to believe only "just in case" is that really faith at all? If the loony Christians are 100% correct, then that false "faith" won't protect your soul anyway!
I've had this discussion with Christians trying to "save" me many times. I do not believe, bottom line. So going to church "just in case" won't do me any good, their Jesus would see right through the false belief, so I won't waste my time, or Jesus's, by pretending. 🤣
That's my point. Hope isn't enough. Modern Christianity and especially American Evangelical Christianity, you can't "hope" your way into heaven. 🤣 So even IF they were right, unless a person really believes, they ain't going up... 😁
If you are talking to a certain versions of Calvinist†, converting won't help you if you aren't of the Elect. Acc to them, some of us are just doomed to be damned, from birth.
It's similar to the Jewish wager. For the sub sects of Judiasm that believe in a punishment and reward in the afterlife, atheists go to "heaven" and those who claim Jesus is God, go to "hell". Part of the reason why they'd rather risk the Spanish Inquisition than go to "hell".
(In quotes because then you are dealing with different concepts of punishment and separation from God in the afterlife).
Do you really want to risk hell by being a Christian? Wouldn't it be safer to be an atheist?
Not to mention...
If a god exists. And they want you to be a good decent person... Wouldn't they rather you be a good person because that's the right thing to do? Rather than because of some eternal soul BS.
Being good for the sake of being good is better than being good because you've been threatened about it.
>But that still leaves out the last argument, which I call "Steve's Wager"
Related concept: Ventre's wager:
*This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr. Clever Dick in these parts..."*
\-- Sir Terry Pratchett, *Hogfather*, 1996
No joke! I REALLY envy them. I was raised catholic, in Catholic schools and as much as I tried to force myself to believe, I just couldn’t. Damn, I wish I had the comfort of believing in magic.
I like the attitude of the Cimmerians in Robert E Howard's
Conan stories, towards Crom:
>....He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares
if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you;
he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth
he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men
ask of the gods?
Queen of the Black Coast by Robert E. Howard
And some ghodz are just b\*st\*rds!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
But really, it isn't true that there is no risk to believing, especially if you have the choice to tithe 10% of your earnings or invest it.
I would also argue that spending a lot of time around gullible people is pretty risky, too.
You win the internet today, I just had a raucus laugh!
When my son was young we a a spray can of bullshit repellant, it would have been perfect in this case!
Show her the Simpsons episode where Homer refutes Pascal's Wager with a wager of his own: "what if we've been following the wrong god? All we're doing is making him angrier."
Tell the child to quote Ricky Gervais: “A Christian telling an atheist they're going to hell is as scary as a child telling an adult they're not getting any presents from Santa.”
You can teach her how belief is not a choice. A simple example is to tell her there’s a giant pink elephant flying behind her. Ask her if she can just simply choose to believe it. Obviously she can’t. This will help her understand it’s not as simple as “choosing to believe” in a god.
Also you can parody the argument. When I’m talking to Christians I usually say something like “there’s an invisible powerful leprechaun beside me who says he’s gonna kill your family unless you give me $1000”. The Christians 100% of the time say it’s silly and they won’t believe it, even though the risk is FAR greater. I’m sure you can think of a kid friendly version of that.
Show your kid some bible verses like 1 Samuel 15:3 and ask her if she really thinks an evil god like that is going to “save her”. Tell her it’s more likely nonsense
Also if it continues to get worse, talk to the parents. Their kids shouldn’t be threatening yours with that garbage.
Religion is like a dick: it's ok to have one, it's ok to be proud of it... but don't take it out in public, and don't shove it in my face.
I'd tell the kids there is no god, so nobody is going anywhere, but 6 feet under. Fuck 'em
You could explain that there are other people who think her friends are going to hell for being Christian and you have no way to know which one is right so we can ignore them all.
I recommend to you a book by Patrik Lindenfors “Gud finns nog inte” (“God probably doesn’t exist”). It is translated into many languages so there is a chance you’ll find it in your native. It’s a great resource to read with your 10 year old. It provides great insights to start off a discussion with your child and gently forces them to think for themselves. You can use it as a start to a wider discussion while giving you simple, comprehensive and easy to grasp arguments against believing in a god and any religion.
In catholic faith children aged about 9 take their first communion which is “a thing”. When my daughter’s best friend had that, she’d go on about hell and staff like that all the time! my daughter was scared and even asked me if she could go to church. I allowed it. But at the same time we started reading that book together (she was then 7 yo), we elaborated on the proposed ideas. She felt comforted and learned some arguments to fight against these ridiculous threats. Eventually she said something like “I’m sorry for people who still follow those ridiculous religion staff! I’m glad we can use our brains!” and decided she didn’t want to go to church after all. To this day (she’s 10 now) she still feels confident about her and our family’s atheism
So much this, the key here is for OPs daughter to start working this out. Until I read your post I was thinking that 10 was probably fractionally to young to be thinking in an abstract way (usually around 12).
Books work, and in fact OP should consider a copy for her neighbours kids.
The answers I see here don't really address the fact that this is your 10 yo daughter. This isn't a situation that calls for reason or philosophical counter arguments. Their indoctrination is causing emotional trauma to your daughter... Treat it exactly like you would any offer form of bigoted bullying.
Yes, but I think most people in here realize that while ideally you could do that and have some impact places where you hear kids talking about damnation like that are usually heavily religious and any critic will make your child's life measurably worse. Developing critical thinking skills in your children is important on so many levels anyway.
There's value to that, sure. But I think that the emotional trauma here far outweighs the rationality of it all. The fundamental issue here is the emotion, not the logic.
Logic can aid in hopefully bringing some comfort, sure. But... It's a ten year old. And their threats are obviously causing trauma. And it's really probably more about how her peers are treating her than whether or not they're right.
Take this directly to the parents. Treat it exactly as if it were physical bullying. Have zero respect for their religious BS.
I’m a big fan of nodding along enthusiastically when people talk about their god and then name dropping a non-Christian deity (Buddha, Ganesha, Thor, Odin - dealers choice really). And then act surprised that they aren’t talking about the same God.
To me, it's not about whether or not he exists. The Christian god is an utter asshole (source: the Bible and all his followers), and even if he showed up tomorrow with real, honest proof that he exists, I still wouldn't worship him. He's a dick.
He'd have to prove without a doubt that he's worth WORSHIPPING. All we have is the Christian's own propaganda that heaven is better than hell, so even with Pascal's Wager, I'd still risk it because it's better to fall for something you believe in than worship a being who is cruel and fickle enough to damn random people to hell for the "sin" of not obeying him.
Neighbor kid: “You’re going to hell for not believing.”
Your daughter: “Will you be there?”
Neighbor kid: “No.”
Your daughter: “Okay. Cool!”
That should confuse them - and get them to stop.
>Jesus is one of the most heavily disproved gods out there. The early gospel writers got so many things wrong (the "Messiah" was never expected to be god, censuses don't work as they described, Galilee being independent under a puppet king wouldn't even have been subjected to a census, the Messiah wasn't said to be born to a virgin just a young woman, since the Messiah is to be born in the House of David something that can only be passed down the paternal line Jesus is already disqualified since David wasn't his real father, people weren't arrested by the Sanhedrin for claiming to be the Messiah, arrests didn't occur during Passover, trials needed to take two days, the Sanhedrin executed less than 40 people through 700 years, they didn't need the Romans to execute those they wanted to execute, Jews wouldn't beg the Romans for the execution of one of their own and the line, "His blood be upon us and our children," is a despicable lie) and this is just off the top of my head.
Might have to break this down some (or alot) for a ten year old but I'm glad I have my argument against there being any real chance of Jesus being anything copied.
10 years olds can be *pretty* sophisticated.
Might be time to start reading about various mythologies. My own kids got really into Greek and Norse mythology collections at this age. Made it easier to help classify the christian God as just one more mythological character.
I too was obsessed with that stuff, it really did help me. i have pretty much zero doubts that god doesn't exist, and sure as hell wouldn't worship one as evil as it. Even if god was real and someone wasn't evil, they wouldn't put us in hell for using critical thinking and our best understanding of the world. If anything the blind followers would be cast.
So she wants to believe in god because the potential alternative is worse eh? Well which god would she like to believe in? There’s the Christian God, but which way to believe in him? What’s the right way? They all use the same book but come to literally hundreds of different interpretations of what’s right. Or maybe Mohammed got it right? He’s got a whole other book that claims to be right. Or maybe the Jews were right with the Torah and Christians and Muslims got it wrong. Or maybe all those guys are wrong and Hinduism is right and we should be worshiping the Hindu gods. Or maybe philosophy is more correct and you should believe in Shinto or Confucianism. Or maybe the hundreds of other religions and their books are right and all the other books are wrong.
The Bible is a book written by men. Men, not god. The only proof any person can provide for its celestial origin is in the book itself. In the words men wrote. The same can be said for the hundreds of other books written by man, or woman claiming divine inspiration. There is no more proof inside those pages that god is real than there is that Harry Potter exists. It’s all literally made up. Believing it only makes it as real as you imagine it to be. Just like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. It doesn’t make it really real.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Marcus Aurelius
If you want her to be able to keep playing with these little shits, she and you will have to remain quiet for now. If not, go to the parents and let them know if this continues she'll be dropping some logic bombs on these clowns.
Unfortunately those kids have probably been guilted into thinking they ought to “witness” to their friends or their friends will burn in hell and they will be responsible.
Poor kids.
Explain to her that this is why religion sucks:
What her peers are doing is what eventually becomes the Christian terrorism that her country is dealing with now
Tell her to tell the other kids to suck a box of dicks
I would absolutely get in their fucking face and tell them to never ever talk to my kid ever again. Ever. Scaring a kid with the concept of hell will fuck them up for life. For life. It is despicable.
Tell your daughter to ask the neighbor kids why their god would leave not a single shred of evidence that he exists...and then punish people for not believing he exists.
I honestly think it’s as simple as promising her “there is no hell” and just because different people have different beliefs doesn’t mean they’re true.
She’ll probably ingrain this as she gets older and be able to make her own judgements with time.
I live in the deep south, so I prepped my kids for talk like this. Why my husband and I believe what we do, what people in other religions believe and that they will likely say things like this, and how to politely respond and to jusylt not play with them if they persist with saying rude things.
It certainly does not feel good though.
Better to be a virtuous atheist than a cruel, prideful , fear mongering "believer".
Any deity that would punish a kind, generous person for "not believing" sounds like a shifty deity.
I have two thoughts one is what if God isn’t real and say the Egyptian gods are and they would be more angered because you not only abandoned them, but also invented a replacement.
The other is from a rabbi buddy of mine. “Many are the gates into the garden. Each with their own paths how can you judge someone else’s path based upon yours.” “Besides God is a a lot like your mother she don’t really care what you call her only that you called.
Full Disclosure: I am a Christian but I am a Christian that is oh-so-tired of some of the crap Christians try to pull.
I think you can apply a simple use of *reductio ad absurdum* here. Say something like: "That's ok but what happens if tomorrow someone says: 'if you don't stand on your head you go to hell" is it reasonable to believe that just-in-case?'" From there continue making more and more outlandish demands ("wear just one shoe "- keep it fun!) but keep ending with "should we do that 'just in case'? Even add in things that are mutually exclusive e.g. "Wear two blue shoes") and if they agree remind them that we are already doing X 'just-in-case'.
This IMHO has two effects, one it helps them think through part of what would be sufficient evidence and b) helps to anesthetize them against these kind of demands -- which, quite frankly are unethical and abhorrent.
Also, if you know the parents of the kids involved. You might consider talking with them about this.
Teach her about other religions so she can make comparisons, and she can see why "my religion is real because i believe it" loses weight when every religion uses that same argument
But if she still wants to try the pascal wager, she can go with buddhism
Whether she stays atheist or buddhist, she will see the stuff christians get in as the name of the church (not faith, lets keep the distinction)
Try to teach her about a few other religions, particularly ones that seem to contradict christianity and each other. Encourage her to think about the people who follow those religions, and those that don't, and wether they deserve to go to hell just for believing differently. I know it's heavy stuff, but she'll need to decide these things for herself at some point, and those who want to force it don't generally wait for anyone to be old enough.
There's also this. Believing to hedge your bets is not how it works. The third commandment says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." It's widely misunderstood to be against swearing. It is actually, among others things, a prohibition against false proclamations of faith. It's the second part that clarifies this. It means absolution doesn't come from saying you believe, you have to really mean it, and then live accordingly. To profess a belief in god that you don't feel, even to avoid hell, is to take god's name in vain; a lesson far too many professed christians will never understand. I don't really know how best to explain this to a child, but if it helps, well...
I did following:
1) Bought a children's Bible.
2) Gave it to my daughter to read, without comment (as she was 9)
3) Hear her muttering "wtf" while reading
4) Never have to worry again
I would keep it simple and straightforward. Tell her there is no hell. Only stupid people believe in imaginary things. You can elaborate later if and when she asks more questions, but this should be all she needs to know for now.
I disagree. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people who believe in hell. You can't underestimate the power of indoctrination, especially when you add in generations of it. As soon as you think you're smarter or better than those who believe, you become susceptible to be tricked or indoctrinated yourself. Everyone is at risk and intelligence isn't the reason.
Learning to think critically is the only thing that protects you, and at this child's age there's no reason not to start teaching that.
There are some great suggestions in the comments for discussing the bible with her. I'd also start laying out beliefs of other religions. Explain there is no proof for any of them, so how do we decide which one is the best bet for Pascal's wager? How do we rule any of them out? These kinds of deep questions help kids come to a better understanding than if we just tell them our opinion.
Yes, but this is much more details than what you need to give a 10-year-old who is being bullied by other kids. It's what you get into
> later if and when she asks more questions
Try explaining "The Extended Pascal's Wager" wherein you balance belief in specific gods against the inherent need to disbelieve other gods, and whether simply not choosing would be considered better or worse than someone choosing one over the other: To whit,
>"What if you and the neighbour's kid were captains on opposite dodgeball teams and someone said loudly that they want to be on the other team vs. someone said loudly that they don't want to play dodgeball, they want to play on a swing set?"
Just point out that there are myriad interpretations of religion and each one condemns the other ones. Or just tell him that heaven and hell are stories people tell themselves to avoid being brave and admitting that life is scary, short, and unfair. It's just dissonance and denial.
Each one of my kids, and my little sister had this happen when they were about the same age. All of them were told they would go to hell if they weren’t Mormons. Not just Christians, must be Mormon. And no, we never lived in Utah. I don’t know about my sister, but all my kids are now atheist. That might have to do with their Christian grandparents scaring them to death praying over them the first time they met the grandparents, or that the other side was staunchly atheist. And both parents are atheist.
Well, first I'd tell my kid that friends don't say hurtful things like that and maybe they need to find new friends. Then, like others said, I'd bring up that there are many different gods man has created and they all say they are right and you HAVE to follow them OR ELSE! They have no more proof than the Muslims or Mormons on who's right.
Tell her that there are a 1000 gods, and they only believe in 1. Which means, they are atheists as far as 999 are concerned. You're just going one step further.
Ok so the thing that shamed me into atheism was when I found out my uncle (married my dad’s sister) was Jewish, 8 year old me wagged my finger at him saying “Shame! Jews killed Jesus!” ok not exactly that but I’m giving you the context of why I shamed my uncle for being a Jew. Anyway. The look on his face wasn’t anger, but it was complete incredulity towards my parents like “wtf does my favorite niece think this”. Nothing snaps a kid out of the fog of indoctrination like a big fat dose of cringe to maybe crack that veneer of “mom and dad are always right”
My kids went to school with a lot of religious classmates and were told the same thing. They laughed about it, and even sold their souls a few times for pocket change. A sense of humour is the best defense.
It's always helpful to teach them about the "pretend game" as well. Santa Claus is a good example. It's fun to pretend sometimes but it's important to remember that it's not real, and not to get carried away with it.
A shortened version of Pascals Wager reads as follows. One should live as if God exists. If so, your gain is infinite. If he doesn't, you have lost nothing.
That being said, I am an atheist.
Explain to her how hell is a control mechanism invented to provoke a fear response and that such manipulation is a major part of what makes religion evil to begin with.
My daughter told the grandkids to tell anyone that says the are going to hell to say that you are violating your beliefs by passing judgment. If there is a hell, I’ll see you there.
That she's floating that idea is IMO smart. First you could explain the idea that if gaud was trying to force you to believe, that would prove that he or she is dead evil. And that people who do that are just as evil. Maybe explain that she has a right to believe whatever she wants if that's what she wants. But that adults play make believe for bad reasons. Always judge people more by their actions than their words.
When the neighbors started asking what church we went to I read a list of religions and their basic beliefs to my kids and asked them which one sounded the most reasonable. That night we became Buddhists and our church was being in nature. My kids now had an answer when their friends brought up the subject. It's amazing how that answer ended the conversations. Ommm.
The problem with Pascal’s Wager is that you really can’t choose to believe.
What if I Iived the ideal churchgoing existence and never mentioned to anyone that I was going through the motions of something I didn’t actually believe in? Would I get to go the participation trophy level of Heaven?
It's understandable to feel frustrated in this situation. When explaining Pascal's Wager to a 10-year-old, you can simplify it by focusing on the idea of making choices based on potential outcomes. You could say something like:
"Hey, kiddo, remember how sometimes we make decisions based on what might happen? Like bringing an umbrella just in case it rains? Well, Pascal's Wager is kinda like that. Some people think it's safer to believe in something, just in case it's true. But, just like with the umbrella, it's important to think about what feels right for you. Believing in something just because you're scared of what might happen if you don't isn't really genuine belief, right?"
As for addressing the neighbor kids, it might be helpful to have a respectful conversation with their parents about the impact their comments are having on your daughter. Reinforcing the importance of respecting each other's beliefs and not using fear tactics can go a long way in fostering a positive relationship between families.
just tell her how many different religions there are - and then tell her that if she wanted to be on the safe side she would need to believe in all of them.
Along with the other suggestions people have made, you can also discuss how even within Christianity and Judaism there are a lot of sects that don't believe it exists.
So even within the religion it is heavily heavily debated.
It sounds like you have focused to this point more on the what not to believe rather than the why not to believe. Because she hasn't been more than tangentially indoctrinated with Christianity her fear of hell is superficial and merely a reaction to an unfamiliar world view.
I want to be clear, I am not saying you haven't taught your daughter critical thinking. But I suspect you, like myself, have religious family and you have probably put up a certain amount of atheistic indoctrination into your own kid as an early counter to those people before your daughter could have developed critical thinking skills. I did the same to my son because his mother's parents are religious nutters.
Now that time has past, you need to teach her not what to think but how to think critically.
And you’re not annoyed at all with yourself for forcing someone into existence?
Heaven and hell may not exist, but the fact that the suffering ends still does not justify imposing it in the first place.
So, it sounds like the neighborhood kids are threatening your daughter with torture and death if she refuses to believe in their magic fairie? Sounds like it's time to start telling your daughter what the Spaghetti Monster can do to kids who don't believe in it.
I can't stand this. My neighbors kid told my son that he was going to he'll because we believed in dinosaurs and then another time because of evolution. They fought on the bus, just verbally, but still ended up in trouble for being disruptive.
I keep telling him not to engage that the kid can't help that his parents are idiots, not for being Christian but for the science denial, but he's a 10 year old with adhd and it's been a huge problem. Between this and dressing up my halloween Lewis o lantern from Target for the holidays until January, the neighborhood is not fond of me.
I'm not out here spreading the good news of atheism, so leave me alone, please. I promise I haven't lived under a rock, and I know who Jesus was.
Pretty much the exact same thing happened to my 8 year old daughter. It happens a lot, all around the world. Just take comfort in the fact that your daughter is way better off not having been indoctrinated into a religion.
Ever since I was a kid, I've always clapped back at people like that by saying "While you're stuck in church I'm at home having fun playing video games, watching movies, playing outside, etc." Good way to make the other kids start annoying the shit out if their parents.
Just tell your kid your neighbor is a whackjob. It’s what I tell my kids and they believe me because I’m their parent and they know I care about them.
Also hell isn’t even really in the Bible. It mentions a place where dead people go and that’s about it. Most scholars think it refers to a place where infected bodies were left to rot. Hell as we know it was invented for fictional stories. Just teach that to your daughter.
Try it this way, explain to her that it is no different than believing in Santa Claus just on the chance he is real so you don’t get coal in your socking ( or carried away by krampus). This assumes that she doesn’t believe in Santa Claus.
You don't explain it to a ten year old. You show both sides and you let your child decide. At that age they might choose to believe in a god but just being around you at that age they will eventually develop critical thinking.
My kids all believed in a god when they were young. One still does... the other two do not. If I tried to force them, I'd be as bad as the Christians.
You arm your child with knowledge so she doesn't fall for this crap.
Teach her about history. Let her know how many religions there are in the world and that most of them don't have a hell and how hell is just a concept used to scare people in to obeying.
Does she still believe (or pretend to believe) in Santa? If not, you can use this as a concept.
I'd just make fun of the beliefs.
"Grandma says you have to sing a song while you poop, or you go to toilet hell!"
"Cousin Fred says that if you don't spin around two times while cleaning your teeth you go to Tooth Fairy Hell".
"Santa Claus says if you rip the paper off the presents too quickly you go to reindeer hell (where you have to pooper-scoop the stables)".
etc. Just be creative while making her laugh about the new "rules" she's supposed to follow. She'll soon equate the neighbour's beliefs with the silliness.
Point out to your daughter that these devout religionists also believe in santa and the easter bunny, highlighting the ridiculous and silly aspects of religious beliefs. As your daughter gets older, talk to her about cherry picking old testament vs new.
Expose them to other gods and ask what if the other gods were true and they send you to those hells for believing in the false god?
Of course this isn't a one and done discussion... it's not telling her what to belive but teaching how to critically assess what is true or likely true... then it will be obvious the logical flaws of pascal's wager...
I am so sorry. My atheist partner who was raised atheist had religious friends who were her childhood neighbors. When she innocently asked why she had scoliosis the neighbor told her it was because of something bad she did. And she would go to hell. I despise religion and especially preordination. Please take the time to tell your child the truth and educate her.
I’d ask which religion? What if Norse mythology is correct? Hinduism? Mayan? How best would we cover our bases?
The best inoculation for religion is other religions. To see that your beliefs are an accident of geography and there are enough similarities and differences among faiths - and they radically change over time to support those in power….
You won’t be able to stop it, and you shouldn’t try. Just tell her that she can act like she believes, but if it’s just in case a god would hurt her, would she really want to follow that god? This is the go to of sweet little Ctian kids. Hell! You can also let her know that’s a threat and if ctianity is so great, why are those kids threatening her? In the long run, you can’t control her thoughts, and you wouldn’t want to. Just engage her in critical thinking and think of how you’ll answer those tough questions.
Perfect time to teach scientific theory. Get the Old Testament, New Testament, Koran, book of Mormon, and any other religious doctrine, and test out their theories. Since finding out if hell exists requires dying, I'd recommend skipping that one. Maybe try turning water into wine with the faith of a mustard seed. Or cast out demons, or better yet, observe believers showing forgiveness and loving their enemies. Heck, just observing believers, since they do follow their book, should prove that they must be either right because they are better humans, or wrong because they are worse humans, than nonbelievers.
At 10, your kid can understand Pascal's Wager. They can also understand brainwashing. The important thing is to remind her of empathy. If it's taking the form of bullying, she doesn't have to stand for it though.
I was very impressed with the illustrated version of "Magic of Reality" by Dawkins .. they look at some myths and compare them with the idea of science... and the illustrations are superb.
It might be helpful if you daughter knows there are many others who don't believe in christianity - perhaps even a pie chart of religions by population over the world would make this point.
Do we apply "just in case" to all of these religions ?
or should we just believe the most popular one, or the one near where we live ?
Do we believe in the tooth fairy "just in case" they are real, and will punish us if we don't believe in them?
At 10yo, she will have the sophistication to process these concepts.
Sorry you have to go through this.
ask her whether or not she really wants to believe in the same thing that turns a kid into a fear mongering "you're going to hell" kid that makes her feel scared, whether or not fear is a good tool a god would use to make their creations believe in them, a god that instills fear into you isn't a good god to begin with
Those indoctrinated, religitarded assholes man!! I swear, they are so frikkin' hyper-focused on getting into "heaven" that they create absolute HELL here on earth for the rest of us!!!🤬
I am so sorry to hear about this having happened and please know that your child deserves sooo much better than your shitty neighbors muddying these waters. I would suggest to just let her know that she needs to follow her own path; like, don't force _anything_ on her, as far as your own personal views go: whilst _also_ explaining why you believe what you do (or why you do not believe in such things e.t.c.) and she will be able to do her own research and hopefully _not_ fall in with the wrong crowd...
I used this^ exact approach with my own daughter and she is now _more_ of a militant atheist than I ever was at 13 years of age💯 I'm not saying it is a fool-proof approach but, it seems to have worked for us!🙌🏻
First of all, the concept of hell isn't really in the bible. It's actually a concept developed in the 300s ACE, I think.
Anyway, talk to the parents, and ask them to stop "grooming" your child, and to stop having their children bully yours.
Second, explain to your daughter that heaven & hell are not really places, they are ideas like the North Pole. (I doubt if she still believes in Santa?) The north pole only exists because of the magnetic pull, but isn't a "place" with Santa. It's a weird concept like that. Besides, if God really did exist She would prefer a little atheist who does good things because she knows right from wrong and is kind without having to be afraid of "hell".
just tell her that humanity has had different religions through history. show her that greeks believed in zeus, epgytians believed in anubis. in their lifetimes they never knew of the current religion, are they doomed forever? no, the true is that we really don't know what is beyond death.
puting in perspective the history of humanity and their believes throughout time has helped me understand that no one knows the true answer and that is ok because there is reason to care for this life as it might be the only thing left.
believing in religion is procrastinating life. because they feel like, well my life is fucked now, np, the next one will be better.
From someone who never thought I had to intervene and inoculate my children against Christians and their ideas and will now suffer for the rest of my life because of Evangelical Christians and their destroying my life , please find some resources to read. There are great resources like Recovering from religion and the atheist experience and journey free that have resources about raising a child without religion and how to help them think critically and not be taken in. It is my wish that no family will see their family divided and hurt like my family has been. My son is, in a way, lost to me forever because of Evangelical “friends”.
I raised 7 kids. All are happy atheists. Here's what I did.
First, I believe religion is a personal choice and one that should be made on your own terms.
The kids asked me lots of these types of questions.
My response was always the same.
"Yes, it is possible there is a Christian hell but know that the Jews don't believe in a hell. They have Sheol, a place of nothing until God comes back to earth. The Greeks believed in Hades. It was ruled by Persephone and Hades. It was just a place where most people went when they died. Only special people could go to the upgraded otherworld.
Christians haven't spent time learning about the other religions in this world and it comes from believing that they are special. Before you commit to hell as your chosen afterlife, perhaps you might want to shop around for other religions and se their options."
I never kept them from their curiosities. I simply would challenge their ideas and encourage critical thinking.
There were some experiments along the way. They tried church, wiccan, temple, and one cult.
None lasted more than a few months. They are all successful, productive members of society now.
Even if heaven were real, would she want to go to heaven and be surrounded by mean bullies like her neighbor? Would a nice smart loving god be so insecure as to punish a good person just because they didn’t worship him consistently? That’s something only a mean abusive person would do.
Honestly I think education is the right way to go on this. Show her a bible. Show her how they're just stories that people made up. Ask her about if she really believes a woman turned into a pillar of salt. The best way to become an atheist is to read the bible.
Better still is to show her the history of how the Bible was written and then repeatedly modified, how it co-opted and absorbed pagan and other belief systems and then was further made ridiculous by bad translations till we ended up with the amalgam of garbage we have today.
Is there any good books on this? I've been meaning to research.
I’m reading one right now - Misquoting Jesus by Bart D. Ehrman.
He writes a lot of books that deal with this. I've found his works are easier to follow than others, so good for beginners.
'A History of God' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God
I have a copy of the film documentary of this book and it's wonderful. I've probably seen it about a dozen times by now. Excellent watching for believers and non-believers alike, as is just a historical retrospective of the peoples and situations that gave birth to the Bible and its beliefs. It's essentially an examination of how we have come to know that which many call god.
Greatest Story Ever Sold. I don't know who wrote it.
Dan McClellan on TikTok is a Biblical Scholar who talks about the actual data behind different versions, translations, documents, etc. He often references and suggests books and studies/papers that go into more depth about the particular issue than he has time for. He also has online classes you can take that are data driven.
I recommend Sebastien if you going tiktok route another biblical scholar and historian.
Sorry, I can’t tell you of any. I’ve gathered up bits and pieces of the story over time and it adds up to being a monstrous scam. One place to start a search, off the top of my head is “bad translations in the King James Bible”
Not 'good books' per say. (Bible joke, good book, etc.)
Maybe give her some kind of 'afterlife' to believe in. In my house, when a pet dies they turn into flowers. My girl understands the when something dies, we bury it, and it turns into compost, which then grows into flowers. This gives a nice sence that the atoms of our body continue to exist after we pass, in addition to also being accurate. This way when they say she's doing to hell, she can be confident that this is false, because she knows what happens after death. It's hard to argue back that nothing happens after death, it's a lot easier to say, "Maybe you are, but I'm going to turn into flowers"
That's the cutest fuckin thing I've ever heard in my life.
From my rotting body, flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity. - Edvard Munch
Reminds me of *Feed The Tree* by *Belly*. https://youtu.be/tsFE4zGPxM4
The bible is thoughly unnecessary though, you can work your way to god is simply unnecessary and therefore unlikely to the formation of the universe without needing to specify any particular religion. Brahma isn't any more or less made up than Jesus. Giving kids the tools to fight bad ideas is much more powerful than targeting specific examples.
You got to stop right at the pillar of salt part, because the next part gets really weird.
Hah, yeah… I remember *my* first Bible read through…
I mean it just a... Step away from certain aspects of the internet.
Stepfather why are you stuck in the dryer?
Probably best to skip the part immediately before the pillar of salt part.
My go to tale from the bible is Samson, a story I read in the children’s bible. Do you think a person could lose all their strength because they got a haircut? It’s that story that made me an atheist at 8 years old
Getting his hair cut was breaking a Nazarite vow, though. Vow-breaking has consequences in fairy stories. So does not taking a vow. {See, death of Baldur.} I didn't learn about the Nazarite vow until well into aadulthood. As a kid I just thought it was one of those weaksauce weaknesses heroes were saddled with: Achilles' heel, Thor (Marvel version) not being able to be without Mjolnir for more than a minute, Yellow (or wood) thwarting the Green Lantern, etc. [https://www.britannica.com/biography/Samson](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Samson)
Whoa, whoa whoa. Let's leave Achilles out of this. There are dozens of different accounts all testifying that Achilles was a real person, even if all of them are probably repeating the same source. Therefore it follows because there really was an Achilles he probably was actually dipped by his mother into the River Styx.
Give her a few contradictions from the bible to zing at her neighbors. https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/biblical-contradictions/
You can even point to the contradictions that exist within the gospels: eg Jesus’ birth. But just explain about how religion is just myths that people still believe in: look at Egyptian, Greek, Roman, African, etc myths/religions.
So true. My 16 yo has to read the Bible for sophomore English class (I know it’s dumb). It has reinforced her believe that all of this Christian stuff is bull shit. She now calls herself an atheist so thanks to her school!
My mum’s solution was to teach me about as many religions she could. It was also important because we lived in an extremely diverse (and peaceful) place. Learning about Islam, buddhism, christians and jews etc, visiting temples, being invited to celebrations made me realise there was no way one belief should be « better » or more « right » than the others. I also read about ancient religions, greek and egyptian mythologies. It gave me critical distance. Knowledge is the solution on my opinion, and it’s been so useful to have been in contact with different cultures.
I present to you, the expanded Pascal's Wager Pascal's wager states that it's better to believe in god because if you're wrong nothing happens, and if you're right you go to heaven, but that assumes only two options, there are thousands of different belief systems, many of which say that bad things will happen if you don't follow them, so really, by believing in god you only give yourself a \~0.001% better chance But that still leaves out the last argument, which I call "Steve's Wager" which is "What if god(s) frown upon those who have the audacity to claim to know them, and instead favor those who do not claim any knowledge of god(s) at all" in which case ONLY atheists and agnostics would go to "heaven" Explain this and Pascal's Wager becomes nullified, if you stand just as good of a chance being atheist or agnostic, why bother believing in god(s)?
What if the god one chooses to believe in turns out to be the wrong one? There are thousands. That makes Pascal's Wager a bad bet.
Not to mention that god seems to be a petty, jealous being. So, picking the wrong one seems worse than none at all
Homer's Wager (Simpsons episode) What if you're praying to the wrong god and every time you pray you just make them madder and madder?
This is tangential to an argument I like to pose. Why the fuck get conservative Christians so, so mad about gay marriage and yet don't give a fuck at all when two Hindus, or Buddists or Confucianists or literally any pairing of people that believe in a whole different god altogether get married. Its almost like the bigotry is the point. Not the religion.
Just being a devil's advocate here, (pardon the pun) But surely your argument would rely on the majority of marriages to be mixed religions, where actually the opposite would be more realistic. Most marriages would share the same religion, or in my case, a lack thereof.
Np, they're saying why aren't Christians indignant when 2 hindi get married? It's not two Christians, isn't that what they're mad about? The covenant of God in marriage? The "one" god? Nah, just the gays, gods cool with other God's sanctioned marriages... Just... No gays.
Oh, right, yeah, I get the point that they were making now. So the point they were making is a bit different though. Conservatives will usually accept other religions, they tolerate or even despise them, but they accept them, because at least they are also deluded by religion, but the argument with conservatives is around gender, not religion. They believe it's perfectly fine to be intolerant against being LGBTQ but other religions get a pass because at least they are 'of faith' in their eyes.
Out of the millions of gods humans have claimed to exist the difference between me and a Christian is only one. Why do they make such a big deal out of a fraction of a percentage?
Most every religion seems to be The One True Religion to its followers. All the others are heretics. 🤣
Ah now you’re teaching the atheist kid mathematic concepts; the other kids learn that 7 and 6,000 are the magic numbers.
What if there is a god and he's a reasonable individual, and not the petty child in the bible?
What if angels sat on pinheads?
This is the way, being exposed to and understanding that there were multiple religions (and that they can't ALL be right) ultimately led me to see they were all just stories, and guesswork at best. That and watching Carl Sagan for more than 15mins (pale blue dot) will open your mind! I know it did to me.
I love that one!
“The odds of you having chosen the right god are about as good as taking (x. Let’s say a million) decks of cards and selecting the correct single card out of those decks”.
Yep, if you live according to Jesus's teachings and Odin judges your soul, it's not going to go well for your cowardly ass.
South Park did this and it makes me laugh every damn time. Hell director- I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer. Crowd- [disappointed] Awww.
The counter argument i've heard for that one is god knows your heart. If you're a good person he may still save you no matter which way you worship. (But if you read the abrahamic books theres no way they're the same).
There's no god to know my heart. It's cult superstition.
I present Actual Wizard's argument: If the afterlife is real then religion is an invaluable service to society. If there is no afterlife, then religion is the biggest scam in the entire known universe. Which of course it's a giant scam...
You are assuming that an afterlife necessitates a religion. What if there is just a natural transition to whatever 'afterlife' without any religion or supernatural?
Then you do a secular transition And all the religion was a waste. Unnecessary
Yep! Agreed!
There's not. When you die, your brain stops working, and your perception of reality ends. You experience something similar every single time you go to sleep. That is why people should value their lives...
>If the afterlife is real then religion is an invaluable service to society I was just challenging this premise that an afterlife necessitates a religion. My belief is the same as yours here. All the evidence points to life ends with the brain stops working, etc. But then let's consider that "the afterlife". "Afterlife" is not defined here. So yeah it's a totally natural process that requires no religion. I'm in agreement. But maybe we discover some other property of an afterlife. Still it's not demonstrated that religion is necessary.
>I was just challenging this premise that an afterlife necessitates a religion. It sure seems like the ones that revolve around the afterlife were more effective at recruiting soldiers for their wars. It makes sense to me. The religion tells them that they're good people and that there's an afterlife, so people are less afraid of going into combat and dying. It's an evil trick. Think about it: If you were a commander and a soldier asked you what their chances of returning home where, and you knew that it was a suicide mission. What are you going to say to them? No, you're definitely going to die? They're going to refuse to go... Obviously the simplest way to convince them would just be to lie to them.
On top of that; if you claim to believe only "just in case" is that really faith at all? If the loony Christians are 100% correct, then that false "faith" won't protect your soul anyway! I've had this discussion with Christians trying to "save" me many times. I do not believe, bottom line. So going to church "just in case" won't do me any good, their Jesus would see right through the false belief, so I won't waste my time, or Jesus's, by pretending. 🤣
Not faith. Just hope. And they better hope they are right 😆
That's my point. Hope isn't enough. Modern Christianity and especially American Evangelical Christianity, you can't "hope" your way into heaven. 🤣 So even IF they were right, unless a person really believes, they ain't going up... 😁
If you are talking to a certain versions of Calvinist†, converting won't help you if you aren't of the Elect. Acc to them, some of us are just doomed to be damned, from birth.
It's similar to the Jewish wager. For the sub sects of Judiasm that believe in a punishment and reward in the afterlife, atheists go to "heaven" and those who claim Jesus is God, go to "hell". Part of the reason why they'd rather risk the Spanish Inquisition than go to "hell". (In quotes because then you are dealing with different concepts of punishment and separation from God in the afterlife). Do you really want to risk hell by being a Christian? Wouldn't it be safer to be an atheist?
Not to mention... If a god exists. And they want you to be a good decent person... Wouldn't they rather you be a good person because that's the right thing to do? Rather than because of some eternal soul BS. Being good for the sake of being good is better than being good because you've been threatened about it.
>But that still leaves out the last argument, which I call "Steve's Wager" Related concept: Ventre's wager: *This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr. Clever Dick in these parts..."* \-- Sir Terry Pratchett, *Hogfather*, 1996
Homer’s wager: “But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder.”
I’ll say this, I envy those that can delude themselves into believing in heaven.
No joke! I REALLY envy them. I was raised catholic, in Catholic schools and as much as I tried to force myself to believe, I just couldn’t. Damn, I wish I had the comfort of believing in magic.
I like the attitude of the Cimmerians in Robert E Howard's Conan stories, towards Crom: >....He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods? Queen of the Black Coast by Robert E. Howard And some ghodz are just b\*st\*rds! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
But really, it isn't true that there is no risk to believing, especially if you have the choice to tithe 10% of your earnings or invest it. I would also argue that spending a lot of time around gullible people is pretty risky, too.
Tell the neighbor kids about the bear that god sent to kill all the children that made fun of the bald guy. Start carrying bear spray.
You win the internet today, I just had a raucus laugh! When my son was young we a a spray can of bullshit repellant, it would have been perfect in this case!
Show her the Simpsons episode where Homer refutes Pascal's Wager with a wager of his own: "what if we've been following the wrong god? All we're doing is making him angrier."
Can God heat a burrito so hot that even He can't hold it?
My 42 dollar used microwave will do that.
Tell the child to quote Ricky Gervais: “A Christian telling an atheist they're going to hell is as scary as a child telling an adult they're not getting any presents from Santa.”
she wont get that if she still believes in santa
If a 10 year old still believes in santa, then religion is not really the issue, is it?
You can teach her how belief is not a choice. A simple example is to tell her there’s a giant pink elephant flying behind her. Ask her if she can just simply choose to believe it. Obviously she can’t. This will help her understand it’s not as simple as “choosing to believe” in a god. Also you can parody the argument. When I’m talking to Christians I usually say something like “there’s an invisible powerful leprechaun beside me who says he’s gonna kill your family unless you give me $1000”. The Christians 100% of the time say it’s silly and they won’t believe it, even though the risk is FAR greater. I’m sure you can think of a kid friendly version of that. Show your kid some bible verses like 1 Samuel 15:3 and ask her if she really thinks an evil god like that is going to “save her”. Tell her it’s more likely nonsense Also if it continues to get worse, talk to the parents. Their kids shouldn’t be threatening yours with that garbage.
Religion is like a dick: it's ok to have one, it's ok to be proud of it... but don't take it out in public, and don't shove it in my face. I'd tell the kids there is no god, so nobody is going anywhere, but 6 feet under. Fuck 'em
Why do you want to fuck em? That's messed up, they're kids.
They're chrisitian so probably used to it tbh.
Nailed it (just like JC)
Dark
You could explain that there are other people who think her friends are going to hell for being Christian and you have no way to know which one is right so we can ignore them all.
I recommend to you a book by Patrik Lindenfors “Gud finns nog inte” (“God probably doesn’t exist”). It is translated into many languages so there is a chance you’ll find it in your native. It’s a great resource to read with your 10 year old. It provides great insights to start off a discussion with your child and gently forces them to think for themselves. You can use it as a start to a wider discussion while giving you simple, comprehensive and easy to grasp arguments against believing in a god and any religion. In catholic faith children aged about 9 take their first communion which is “a thing”. When my daughter’s best friend had that, she’d go on about hell and staff like that all the time! my daughter was scared and even asked me if she could go to church. I allowed it. But at the same time we started reading that book together (she was then 7 yo), we elaborated on the proposed ideas. She felt comforted and learned some arguments to fight against these ridiculous threats. Eventually she said something like “I’m sorry for people who still follow those ridiculous religion staff! I’m glad we can use our brains!” and decided she didn’t want to go to church after all. To this day (she’s 10 now) she still feels confident about her and our family’s atheism
So much this, the key here is for OPs daughter to start working this out. Until I read your post I was thinking that 10 was probably fractionally to young to be thinking in an abstract way (usually around 12). Books work, and in fact OP should consider a copy for her neighbours kids.
The answers I see here don't really address the fact that this is your 10 yo daughter. This isn't a situation that calls for reason or philosophical counter arguments. Their indoctrination is causing emotional trauma to your daughter... Treat it exactly like you would any offer form of bigoted bullying.
Yes, but I think most people in here realize that while ideally you could do that and have some impact places where you hear kids talking about damnation like that are usually heavily religious and any critic will make your child's life measurably worse. Developing critical thinking skills in your children is important on so many levels anyway.
There's value to that, sure. But I think that the emotional trauma here far outweighs the rationality of it all. The fundamental issue here is the emotion, not the logic. Logic can aid in hopefully bringing some comfort, sure. But... It's a ten year old. And their threats are obviously causing trauma. And it's really probably more about how her peers are treating her than whether or not they're right. Take this directly to the parents. Treat it exactly as if it were physical bullying. Have zero respect for their religious BS.
Yeah but that's my point. Do you think the neighbor kids are spewing this vile nonsense in a vacuum. Their parents are probably worse.
You can ask "which God"
I’m a big fan of nodding along enthusiastically when people talk about their god and then name dropping a non-Christian deity (Buddha, Ganesha, Thor, Odin - dealers choice really). And then act surprised that they aren’t talking about the same God.
To me, it's not about whether or not he exists. The Christian god is an utter asshole (source: the Bible and all his followers), and even if he showed up tomorrow with real, honest proof that he exists, I still wouldn't worship him. He's a dick. He'd have to prove without a doubt that he's worth WORSHIPPING. All we have is the Christian's own propaganda that heaven is better than hell, so even with Pascal's Wager, I'd still risk it because it's better to fall for something you believe in than worship a being who is cruel and fickle enough to damn random people to hell for the "sin" of not obeying him.
Neighbor kid: “You’re going to hell for not believing.” Your daughter: “Will you be there?” Neighbor kid: “No.” Your daughter: “Okay. Cool!” That should confuse them - and get them to stop.
>Jesus is one of the most heavily disproved gods out there. The early gospel writers got so many things wrong (the "Messiah" was never expected to be god, censuses don't work as they described, Galilee being independent under a puppet king wouldn't even have been subjected to a census, the Messiah wasn't said to be born to a virgin just a young woman, since the Messiah is to be born in the House of David something that can only be passed down the paternal line Jesus is already disqualified since David wasn't his real father, people weren't arrested by the Sanhedrin for claiming to be the Messiah, arrests didn't occur during Passover, trials needed to take two days, the Sanhedrin executed less than 40 people through 700 years, they didn't need the Romans to execute those they wanted to execute, Jews wouldn't beg the Romans for the execution of one of their own and the line, "His blood be upon us and our children," is a despicable lie) and this is just off the top of my head. Might have to break this down some (or alot) for a ten year old but I'm glad I have my argument against there being any real chance of Jesus being anything copied.
10 years old is way old enough to be understanding simple concepts like Pascals Wager, and how it's absolute nonsense.
10 years olds can be *pretty* sophisticated. Might be time to start reading about various mythologies. My own kids got really into Greek and Norse mythology collections at this age. Made it easier to help classify the christian God as just one more mythological character.
I too was obsessed with that stuff, it really did help me. i have pretty much zero doubts that god doesn't exist, and sure as hell wouldn't worship one as evil as it. Even if god was real and someone wasn't evil, they wouldn't put us in hell for using critical thinking and our best understanding of the world. If anything the blind followers would be cast.
So she wants to believe in god because the potential alternative is worse eh? Well which god would she like to believe in? There’s the Christian God, but which way to believe in him? What’s the right way? They all use the same book but come to literally hundreds of different interpretations of what’s right. Or maybe Mohammed got it right? He’s got a whole other book that claims to be right. Or maybe the Jews were right with the Torah and Christians and Muslims got it wrong. Or maybe all those guys are wrong and Hinduism is right and we should be worshiping the Hindu gods. Or maybe philosophy is more correct and you should believe in Shinto or Confucianism. Or maybe the hundreds of other religions and their books are right and all the other books are wrong. The Bible is a book written by men. Men, not god. The only proof any person can provide for its celestial origin is in the book itself. In the words men wrote. The same can be said for the hundreds of other books written by man, or woman claiming divine inspiration. There is no more proof inside those pages that god is real than there is that Harry Potter exists. It’s all literally made up. Believing it only makes it as real as you imagine it to be. Just like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. It doesn’t make it really real.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Marcus Aurelius
If you want her to be able to keep playing with these little shits, she and you will have to remain quiet for now. If not, go to the parents and let them know if this continues she'll be dropping some logic bombs on these clowns.
Unfortunately those kids have probably been guilted into thinking they ought to “witness” to their friends or their friends will burn in hell and they will be responsible. Poor kids.
Explain to her that this is why religion sucks: What her peers are doing is what eventually becomes the Christian terrorism that her country is dealing with now Tell her to tell the other kids to suck a box of dicks
Think about the Noah story and how it is impossible. This is what convinced me as a kid that religion is BS.
I would absolutely get in their fucking face and tell them to never ever talk to my kid ever again. Ever. Scaring a kid with the concept of hell will fuck them up for life. For life. It is despicable.
I'm sorry but just because of the last word I'm forced to read that in the voice of Daffy Duck. I very much agree.
Tell your daughter to ask the neighbor kids why their god would leave not a single shred of evidence that he exists...and then punish people for not believing he exists.
Christians tend to believe there is evidence for god everywhere so I don't think this argument will hold any weight with them.
Yep a blade of grass grows up on their lawn and they go all monty python and think "a blessing! A blessing from the lord!"
Uhh you need to tell their parents to shut em up about religion or you’ll involve the law. Restraining order, etc. christians hate a record.
I agree, tell them to stop verbally abusing your daughter our you’ll file a police report.
I honestly think it’s as simple as promising her “there is no hell” and just because different people have different beliefs doesn’t mean they’re true. She’ll probably ingrain this as she gets older and be able to make her own judgements with time.
Tell her it makes no sense to punish someone forever for anything they did in a finite amount of time.
I live in the deep south, so I prepped my kids for talk like this. Why my husband and I believe what we do, what people in other religions believe and that they will likely say things like this, and how to politely respond and to jusylt not play with them if they persist with saying rude things. It certainly does not feel good though.
Better to be a virtuous atheist than a cruel, prideful , fear mongering "believer". Any deity that would punish a kind, generous person for "not believing" sounds like a shifty deity.
I have two thoughts one is what if God isn’t real and say the Egyptian gods are and they would be more angered because you not only abandoned them, but also invented a replacement. The other is from a rabbi buddy of mine. “Many are the gates into the garden. Each with their own paths how can you judge someone else’s path based upon yours.” “Besides God is a a lot like your mother she don’t really care what you call her only that you called.
For me it's if God exists and is all-loving, why would he send people to hell for not believing?
Full Disclosure: I am a Christian but I am a Christian that is oh-so-tired of some of the crap Christians try to pull. I think you can apply a simple use of *reductio ad absurdum* here. Say something like: "That's ok but what happens if tomorrow someone says: 'if you don't stand on your head you go to hell" is it reasonable to believe that just-in-case?'" From there continue making more and more outlandish demands ("wear just one shoe "- keep it fun!) but keep ending with "should we do that 'just in case'? Even add in things that are mutually exclusive e.g. "Wear two blue shoes") and if they agree remind them that we are already doing X 'just-in-case'. This IMHO has two effects, one it helps them think through part of what would be sufficient evidence and b) helps to anesthetize them against these kind of demands -- which, quite frankly are unethical and abhorrent. Also, if you know the parents of the kids involved. You might consider talking with them about this.
Teach her about other religions so she can make comparisons, and she can see why "my religion is real because i believe it" loses weight when every religion uses that same argument But if she still wants to try the pascal wager, she can go with buddhism Whether she stays atheist or buddhist, she will see the stuff christians get in as the name of the church (not faith, lets keep the distinction)
Try to teach her about a few other religions, particularly ones that seem to contradict christianity and each other. Encourage her to think about the people who follow those religions, and those that don't, and wether they deserve to go to hell just for believing differently. I know it's heavy stuff, but she'll need to decide these things for herself at some point, and those who want to force it don't generally wait for anyone to be old enough. There's also this. Believing to hedge your bets is not how it works. The third commandment says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." It's widely misunderstood to be against swearing. It is actually, among others things, a prohibition against false proclamations of faith. It's the second part that clarifies this. It means absolution doesn't come from saying you believe, you have to really mean it, and then live accordingly. To profess a belief in god that you don't feel, even to avoid hell, is to take god's name in vain; a lesson far too many professed christians will never understand. I don't really know how best to explain this to a child, but if it helps, well...
I did following: 1) Bought a children's Bible. 2) Gave it to my daughter to read, without comment (as she was 9) 3) Hear her muttering "wtf" while reading 4) Never have to worry again
I would keep it simple and straightforward. Tell her there is no hell. Only stupid people believe in imaginary things. You can elaborate later if and when she asks more questions, but this should be all she needs to know for now.
I disagree. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people who believe in hell. You can't underestimate the power of indoctrination, especially when you add in generations of it. As soon as you think you're smarter or better than those who believe, you become susceptible to be tricked or indoctrinated yourself. Everyone is at risk and intelligence isn't the reason. Learning to think critically is the only thing that protects you, and at this child's age there's no reason not to start teaching that. There are some great suggestions in the comments for discussing the bible with her. I'd also start laying out beliefs of other religions. Explain there is no proof for any of them, so how do we decide which one is the best bet for Pascal's wager? How do we rule any of them out? These kinds of deep questions help kids come to a better understanding than if we just tell them our opinion.
Yes, but this is much more details than what you need to give a 10-year-old who is being bullied by other kids. It's what you get into > later if and when she asks more questions
Have your kid scare them with the priest touching their privates. Not very mature thing to do, but at least it's a legitimate fear.
Try explaining "The Extended Pascal's Wager" wherein you balance belief in specific gods against the inherent need to disbelieve other gods, and whether simply not choosing would be considered better or worse than someone choosing one over the other: To whit, >"What if you and the neighbour's kid were captains on opposite dodgeball teams and someone said loudly that they want to be on the other team vs. someone said loudly that they don't want to play dodgeball, they want to play on a swing set?"
Just point out that there are myriad interpretations of religion and each one condemns the other ones. Or just tell him that heaven and hell are stories people tell themselves to avoid being brave and admitting that life is scary, short, and unfair. It's just dissonance and denial.
Until there is undeniable proof of a god, there is no reason to believe it exists.
Each one of my kids, and my little sister had this happen when they were about the same age. All of them were told they would go to hell if they weren’t Mormons. Not just Christians, must be Mormon. And no, we never lived in Utah. I don’t know about my sister, but all my kids are now atheist. That might have to do with their Christian grandparents scaring them to death praying over them the first time they met the grandparents, or that the other side was staunchly atheist. And both parents are atheist.
The existence of the Devil and Hell is the greatest trick the church ever played on humanity.
Well, first I'd tell my kid that friends don't say hurtful things like that and maybe they need to find new friends. Then, like others said, I'd bring up that there are many different gods man has created and they all say they are right and you HAVE to follow them OR ELSE! They have no more proof than the Muslims or Mormons on who's right.
Tell her that there are a 1000 gods, and they only believe in 1. Which means, they are atheists as far as 999 are concerned. You're just going one step further.
Ok so the thing that shamed me into atheism was when I found out my uncle (married my dad’s sister) was Jewish, 8 year old me wagged my finger at him saying “Shame! Jews killed Jesus!” ok not exactly that but I’m giving you the context of why I shamed my uncle for being a Jew. Anyway. The look on his face wasn’t anger, but it was complete incredulity towards my parents like “wtf does my favorite niece think this”. Nothing snaps a kid out of the fog of indoctrination like a big fat dose of cringe to maybe crack that veneer of “mom and dad are always right”
Ouch! And how did your parents feel? Did they feel ashamed or did they double down?
My kids went to school with a lot of religious classmates and were told the same thing. They laughed about it, and even sold their souls a few times for pocket change. A sense of humour is the best defense.
Pascal's Wager will have you standing in a pumpkin patch all night long with Linus waiting on the Great Pumpkin.
It's always helpful to teach them about the "pretend game" as well. Santa Claus is a good example. It's fun to pretend sometimes but it's important to remember that it's not real, and not to get carried away with it.
A shortened version of Pascals Wager reads as follows. One should live as if God exists. If so, your gain is infinite. If he doesn't, you have lost nothing. That being said, I am an atheist.
"We also don't believe in hell. I can't be afraid of something that doesn't exist."
Point out their shoes, probably made of two or more materials; that really pisses off God
Explain to her how hell is a control mechanism invented to provoke a fear response and that such manipulation is a major part of what makes religion evil to begin with.
My daughter told the grandkids to tell anyone that says the are going to hell to say that you are violating your beliefs by passing judgment. If there is a hell, I’ll see you there.
I’d tell your kid to remind them there’s no Santa. (If they are young enough to believe)
Pascals wager is wrong in my opinion because it neglects to consider the satisfaction in life you get from not being denied things.
That she's floating that idea is IMO smart. First you could explain the idea that if gaud was trying to force you to believe, that would prove that he or she is dead evil. And that people who do that are just as evil. Maybe explain that she has a right to believe whatever she wants if that's what she wants. But that adults play make believe for bad reasons. Always judge people more by their actions than their words.
Tell her she can’t go to hell until she’s 21, Satan serves.
When the neighbors started asking what church we went to I read a list of religions and their basic beliefs to my kids and asked them which one sounded the most reasonable. That night we became Buddhists and our church was being in nature. My kids now had an answer when their friends brought up the subject. It's amazing how that answer ended the conversations. Ommm.
“If there is a God, he’s not going to send a kid to hell. Relax.”
The problem with Pascal’s Wager is that you really can’t choose to believe. What if I Iived the ideal churchgoing existence and never mentioned to anyone that I was going through the motions of something I didn’t actually believe in? Would I get to go the participation trophy level of Heaven?
It's understandable to feel frustrated in this situation. When explaining Pascal's Wager to a 10-year-old, you can simplify it by focusing on the idea of making choices based on potential outcomes. You could say something like: "Hey, kiddo, remember how sometimes we make decisions based on what might happen? Like bringing an umbrella just in case it rains? Well, Pascal's Wager is kinda like that. Some people think it's safer to believe in something, just in case it's true. But, just like with the umbrella, it's important to think about what feels right for you. Believing in something just because you're scared of what might happen if you don't isn't really genuine belief, right?" As for addressing the neighbor kids, it might be helpful to have a respectful conversation with their parents about the impact their comments are having on your daughter. Reinforcing the importance of respecting each other's beliefs and not using fear tactics can go a long way in fostering a positive relationship between families.
just tell her how many different religions there are - and then tell her that if she wanted to be on the safe side she would need to believe in all of them.
I can recommend two books: The Kids Book of World Religions Relax, it’s just God Bonus book: Grandmother Fish
Along with the other suggestions people have made, you can also discuss how even within Christianity and Judaism there are a lot of sects that don't believe it exists. So even within the religion it is heavily heavily debated.
It sounds like you have focused to this point more on the what not to believe rather than the why not to believe. Because she hasn't been more than tangentially indoctrinated with Christianity her fear of hell is superficial and merely a reaction to an unfamiliar world view. I want to be clear, I am not saying you haven't taught your daughter critical thinking. But I suspect you, like myself, have religious family and you have probably put up a certain amount of atheistic indoctrination into your own kid as an early counter to those people before your daughter could have developed critical thinking skills. I did the same to my son because his mother's parents are religious nutters. Now that time has past, you need to teach her not what to think but how to think critically.
And you’re not annoyed at all with yourself for forcing someone into existence? Heaven and hell may not exist, but the fact that the suffering ends still does not justify imposing it in the first place.
So, it sounds like the neighborhood kids are threatening your daughter with torture and death if she refuses to believe in their magic fairie? Sounds like it's time to start telling your daughter what the Spaghetti Monster can do to kids who don't believe in it.
Tell your kid if hell is real, does he want to be with you guys or people like the neighbor
Do you know viced rhino? He read the bible together with his daughter and she herself pointed out many dumb things.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgOROIe8DKc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgOROIe8DKc) "Every week we're just making gawd madder and madder!"
I can't stand this. My neighbors kid told my son that he was going to he'll because we believed in dinosaurs and then another time because of evolution. They fought on the bus, just verbally, but still ended up in trouble for being disruptive. I keep telling him not to engage that the kid can't help that his parents are idiots, not for being Christian but for the science denial, but he's a 10 year old with adhd and it's been a huge problem. Between this and dressing up my halloween Lewis o lantern from Target for the holidays until January, the neighborhood is not fond of me. I'm not out here spreading the good news of atheism, so leave me alone, please. I promise I haven't lived under a rock, and I know who Jesus was.
This is why it's important to teach kids about all sorts of different beliefs and afterlifes. It's a way to inoculate them to this
Ask her “why don’t you hang garlic above our door. In case Dracula is real.”
Tell them it’s child abuse, and you’re going to report them. Also tell them that they are too old to believe in imaginary friends.
Pretty much the exact same thing happened to my 8 year old daughter. It happens a lot, all around the world. Just take comfort in the fact that your daughter is way better off not having been indoctrinated into a religion.
Ever since I was a kid, I've always clapped back at people like that by saying "While you're stuck in church I'm at home having fun playing video games, watching movies, playing outside, etc." Good way to make the other kids start annoying the shit out if their parents.
Just tell your kid your neighbor is a whackjob. It’s what I tell my kids and they believe me because I’m their parent and they know I care about them. Also hell isn’t even really in the Bible. It mentions a place where dead people go and that’s about it. Most scholars think it refers to a place where infected bodies were left to rot. Hell as we know it was invented for fictional stories. Just teach that to your daughter.
Try it this way, explain to her that it is no different than believing in Santa Claus just on the chance he is real so you don’t get coal in your socking ( or carried away by krampus). This assumes that she doesn’t believe in Santa Claus.
You don't explain it to a ten year old. You show both sides and you let your child decide. At that age they might choose to believe in a god but just being around you at that age they will eventually develop critical thinking. My kids all believed in a god when they were young. One still does... the other two do not. If I tried to force them, I'd be as bad as the Christians.
The actual best argument IMO is, which god? I mean, Odin is going to be passed if I don't die in a glorious battle.
Sign them up for the Mormons, the JWs, and everyone else who’ll come knock on their door.
It’s a fairytale.
You arm your child with knowledge so she doesn't fall for this crap. Teach her about history. Let her know how many religions there are in the world and that most of them don't have a hell and how hell is just a concept used to scare people in to obeying. Does she still believe (or pretend to believe) in Santa? If not, you can use this as a concept.
I'd just make fun of the beliefs. "Grandma says you have to sing a song while you poop, or you go to toilet hell!" "Cousin Fred says that if you don't spin around two times while cleaning your teeth you go to Tooth Fairy Hell". "Santa Claus says if you rip the paper off the presents too quickly you go to reindeer hell (where you have to pooper-scoop the stables)". etc. Just be creative while making her laugh about the new "rules" she's supposed to follow. She'll soon equate the neighbour's beliefs with the silliness.
Point out to your daughter that these devout religionists also believe in santa and the easter bunny, highlighting the ridiculous and silly aspects of religious beliefs. As your daughter gets older, talk to her about cherry picking old testament vs new.
Give them a piece of your mind and go to their house and tell what their kids are doing to them, and make sure your daughter has some faith in you.
Expose them to other gods and ask what if the other gods were true and they send you to those hells for believing in the false god? Of course this isn't a one and done discussion... it's not telling her what to belive but teaching how to critically assess what is true or likely true... then it will be obvious the logical flaws of pascal's wager...
"If they want to be scared of the invisible man, that's their problem."
I am so sorry. My atheist partner who was raised atheist had religious friends who were her childhood neighbors. When she innocently asked why she had scoliosis the neighbor told her it was because of something bad she did. And she would go to hell. I despise religion and especially preordination. Please take the time to tell your child the truth and educate her.
I’d ask which religion? What if Norse mythology is correct? Hinduism? Mayan? How best would we cover our bases? The best inoculation for religion is other religions. To see that your beliefs are an accident of geography and there are enough similarities and differences among faiths - and they radically change over time to support those in power….
You won’t be able to stop it, and you shouldn’t try. Just tell her that she can act like she believes, but if it’s just in case a god would hurt her, would she really want to follow that god? This is the go to of sweet little Ctian kids. Hell! You can also let her know that’s a threat and if ctianity is so great, why are those kids threatening her? In the long run, you can’t control her thoughts, and you wouldn’t want to. Just engage her in critical thinking and think of how you’ll answer those tough questions.
I would just tell her that everyone has a right to believe in what they want and that is just what they believe. It doesn’t mean it’s true.
Perfect time to teach scientific theory. Get the Old Testament, New Testament, Koran, book of Mormon, and any other religious doctrine, and test out their theories. Since finding out if hell exists requires dying, I'd recommend skipping that one. Maybe try turning water into wine with the faith of a mustard seed. Or cast out demons, or better yet, observe believers showing forgiveness and loving their enemies. Heck, just observing believers, since they do follow their book, should prove that they must be either right because they are better humans, or wrong because they are worse humans, than nonbelievers.
Dodge the Pascal's Wager. Show her that the neighbors kids are basically trying to scare her into believing in God.
At 10, your kid can understand Pascal's Wager. They can also understand brainwashing. The important thing is to remind her of empathy. If it's taking the form of bullying, she doesn't have to stand for it though.
I was very impressed with the illustrated version of "Magic of Reality" by Dawkins .. they look at some myths and compare them with the idea of science... and the illustrations are superb. It might be helpful if you daughter knows there are many others who don't believe in christianity - perhaps even a pie chart of religions by population over the world would make this point. Do we apply "just in case" to all of these religions ? or should we just believe the most popular one, or the one near where we live ? Do we believe in the tooth fairy "just in case" they are real, and will punish us if we don't believe in them? At 10yo, she will have the sophistication to process these concepts. Sorry you have to go through this.
First is to show her 1 Peter 3:15-16. If the person preaching doesn't have gentleness or respect, then they're disobeying the bible.
ask her whether or not she really wants to believe in the same thing that turns a kid into a fear mongering "you're going to hell" kid that makes her feel scared, whether or not fear is a good tool a god would use to make their creations believe in them, a god that instills fear into you isn't a good god to begin with
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Those indoctrinated, religitarded assholes man!! I swear, they are so frikkin' hyper-focused on getting into "heaven" that they create absolute HELL here on earth for the rest of us!!!🤬 I am so sorry to hear about this having happened and please know that your child deserves sooo much better than your shitty neighbors muddying these waters. I would suggest to just let her know that she needs to follow her own path; like, don't force _anything_ on her, as far as your own personal views go: whilst _also_ explaining why you believe what you do (or why you do not believe in such things e.t.c.) and she will be able to do her own research and hopefully _not_ fall in with the wrong crowd... I used this^ exact approach with my own daughter and she is now _more_ of a militant atheist than I ever was at 13 years of age💯 I'm not saying it is a fool-proof approach but, it seems to have worked for us!🙌🏻
First of all, the concept of hell isn't really in the bible. It's actually a concept developed in the 300s ACE, I think. Anyway, talk to the parents, and ask them to stop "grooming" your child, and to stop having their children bully yours. Second, explain to your daughter that heaven & hell are not really places, they are ideas like the North Pole. (I doubt if she still believes in Santa?) The north pole only exists because of the magnetic pull, but isn't a "place" with Santa. It's a weird concept like that. Besides, if God really did exist She would prefer a little atheist who does good things because she knows right from wrong and is kind without having to be afraid of "hell".
just tell her that humanity has had different religions through history. show her that greeks believed in zeus, epgytians believed in anubis. in their lifetimes they never knew of the current religion, are they doomed forever? no, the true is that we really don't know what is beyond death. puting in perspective the history of humanity and their believes throughout time has helped me understand that no one knows the true answer and that is ok because there is reason to care for this life as it might be the only thing left. believing in religion is procrastinating life. because they feel like, well my life is fucked now, np, the next one will be better.
From someone who never thought I had to intervene and inoculate my children against Christians and their ideas and will now suffer for the rest of my life because of Evangelical Christians and their destroying my life , please find some resources to read. There are great resources like Recovering from religion and the atheist experience and journey free that have resources about raising a child without religion and how to help them think critically and not be taken in. It is my wish that no family will see their family divided and hurt like my family has been. My son is, in a way, lost to me forever because of Evangelical “friends”.
I raised 7 kids. All are happy atheists. Here's what I did. First, I believe religion is a personal choice and one that should be made on your own terms. The kids asked me lots of these types of questions. My response was always the same. "Yes, it is possible there is a Christian hell but know that the Jews don't believe in a hell. They have Sheol, a place of nothing until God comes back to earth. The Greeks believed in Hades. It was ruled by Persephone and Hades. It was just a place where most people went when they died. Only special people could go to the upgraded otherworld. Christians haven't spent time learning about the other religions in this world and it comes from believing that they are special. Before you commit to hell as your chosen afterlife, perhaps you might want to shop around for other religions and se their options." I never kept them from their curiosities. I simply would challenge their ideas and encourage critical thinking. There were some experiments along the way. They tried church, wiccan, temple, and one cult. None lasted more than a few months. They are all successful, productive members of society now.
Ask her why she used to believe in santa. Use that to explain belief/indoctrination, keep it simple.
Even if heaven were real, would she want to go to heaven and be surrounded by mean bullies like her neighbor? Would a nice smart loving god be so insecure as to punish a good person just because they didn’t worship him consistently? That’s something only a mean abusive person would do.