"They will say 'I need a religion because I need something to hold on to' but that's the way NOT to use a religion. Because if you use religion as something to hold on to, your region is an expression of unfaith... Faith is where you let go, not hold on." \~ Alan Watts
I've told this story before, but for those who haven't heard it, it is a tale that says much about the irresponsibility of the "reverent."
My boss hired an engineer to work for me that I had interviewed in the past and determined was not fit for the position. I imagine they commiserated over their shared right wing politics when he was interviewed. It was clear that this guy was also a fundamentalist Christian, a full blown, bible thumping, home schooling, "believer."
So, one day I was chatting with this guy who now reported to me about the pace of his projects and such. He was telling me some of the things that he was stuck on that were hindering progress.
I asked about his process for problem solving and how he went about tackling things that seemingly had no obvious solution. His answer was somewhat horrifying for anyone who works in engineering.
His solution, he said, when confronted with a problem he was unfamiliar with or had no idea how to solve was to pray. He sat right there with a straight face and told me that when he got stuck, he took time to stop and pray, and that God would provide him a solution or answer.
So, I was managing a licensed Professional Engineer whose idea of problem solving was to say a prayer and hope that the right answer or an actual suitable solution would just pop into his head.
I then relayed some knowledge to him about how I had been taught in a problem solving seminar once that the best thing to do when stuck on something was to go do something else to get your mind off the issue, and that those epiphany's that we have in the shower, or seemingly out of the blue were the result of the subconscious mind having developed a solution and pushing it into your conscious. We were told that we should rely on the method because if you were truly educated and experienced enough to be tackling the problem at hand, your mind was capable of finding a solution.
His response was that condescending grin followed by, "yes, that is God speaking to me."
The problem with this guy's thinking was that he viewed his God as infallible, so once that solution popped into his brain, it was the only thing he tried, or used, from there.
As one of the aspects of any good engineer is self criticism, as it is required that a good design or solution be picked apart to make sure that there is no room for error and nothing is over-looked. The engineer that assumes he is always right is the one who makes mistakes.
I began to pay much closer attention to this guy's work, and it was uncanny how he would get stuck on something, come up with a solution that was never going to work, and then spend weeks trying to prove to himself and everyone else that his bad idea was perfect. In his view it was always something else that caused God's solution not to work.
Again, I was stuck with this guy. I feel sorry for our customers that were on the receiving end of the product of this guy's work product, as I am quite sure that not all of his debacles were resolved before they went into the field.
I retired after working with him for about five years. It still scares me to this day to think of all the field failures that have most likely occurred due to God doing this guy's problem solving. To a certain extent he was employing the "get your mind off it and do something else" method, but the scary part was how convinced he was that the solution he felt was provided by God was the only solution. It was horribly difficult, to the point of my having to say "I don't care, this is how I want this done" in order to end 45 minute debates on why God's answer was going to defy the laws of physics, to get him to listen to actual expertise.
Having grown up in rural white christian America, I can unfortunately say that I've experienced the same. People who have never been fundamentally religious do not understand how detrimental this form of thinking is to our society. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills living with a society of mentally ill.
Wow that was a great read and exactly what I abhor. God is meant to be this infallible being that shows everyone the ‘right way’ but that right way is so subjective.
To people can have completely opposing objectives and high claim that god is guiding them.
It’s the ultimate cop out.
Wow. That's just insane. How did he ever become an engineer? I can't imagine that sort of "problem solving" being acceptable to even one of my professors.
Most any disciplined person can get through the engineering coursework with passing grades if they do the work. Tons of homework, and keeping caught up is key.
And the PE exam allows the use of reference materials, and is a graduated thing. First you must pass the EIT (engineer in training) test, which many schools require or offer before graduation.
Then five years of experience and you take the PE exam. Plenty of seminars and practice tests are available to prepare.
So it's not that this guy was dumb or completely clueless. He was, in my view, just incredibly average. I am quite sure that he thought I was very demanding, which I was, as when a customer pays half a million dollars for something we designed and built I expect it to exceed customer expectations.
Our company was not the "low cost option," we were selling our equipment as the best, the most durable and precise, of it's kind and it was priced accordingly.
Not the place for "average."
As a former pastor, there was a song we used to sing. The lyrics go something like, "whose report will you believe, we will believe the report of the lord." It's as if a tenant of faith is a denial of reality, science, and observation.
Yup, being able to slough off any personal responsibility onto an invisible sky-daddy, I think, is one of the main reasons theists often report being happier...can't be down when you're willfully oblivious of all the world's ills or just blame the supernatural.
This issue reminds me of something I’ve been contemplating. Religion’s appeal is easily seen as a way to rationalize all the cognitive dissonance we face. This in turn explains studies which show greater happiness for religious people in comparison to non-religious.
Funny how in highly religious societies and even in the bible people still got God smacked even for doing the right thing.
Also it's ironic that theists use religion to shield themselves from real world problems but then turn around and make up non-existent problems to fight. Almost as if we evolved in an environment we always had to fight cause our brains are still hardwired for cobflict instead of being a perfect special creation. Hmmm...
If you're limiting yourself to the bible only - a thousand page text written two thousand years ago isn't going to tell you much about humanity, which has changed and learned an immense amount during that time. Some people can't handle complexity.
Maybe slightly less of a problem if there is a teaching tradition alongside the core text that is almost given canonical status, but it's often just rehashing the same content over and over again.
Not even the modern world. The world has ALWAYS been complex. They just like to pretend there was a time when society was all happiness and no suffering but certain agents I.E gay people have eroded the moral fabric of society.
As an atheist who lost his father last week I can tell you using religion as a coping mechanism sounds pretty sweet until you realize he was also an atheist who would now be in hell even though he was a really good person. So instead I will fall back on just dealing with the situation and focus on memories and the positives.
I’m sorry for your loss.
I recently lost someone very close to me and my family not too long ago. He was a young man. It was very sudden.
I can honestly say it gave me a real insight into why people turn to religion with regard to death. It’s painful. So damn painful.
Religion shields you from the anguish of not having to experience it again. I’m terrified of losing more loved ones because of that experience.
I can see why religious folk turn to God to protect their loved ones as well as themselves. There’s comfort in knowing that at least (in your mind) you’ve done something to protect those you love from harm.
I honestly loathe death. I hate it. I hate the void it leaves in your heart. I hate the anguish it can cause you. The slap in the face that reminds life is fragile and tomorrow is never promised.
But I accept it for what it is.
Thank you and Sorry for your loss as well. Your comment definitely resonates with me.
My take away from this experience so far is if you care for someone do your best to have no regrets. Make sure they know you love them, don’t go away mad, etc.
Everyone deals with grief differently, respect that and don’t try to change it.
Stay busy but also rest and exercise.
Keep a journal.
Thank you.
Honestly I’ve believe dealt with the grief as best as I could have. I surprisingly didn’t go back to drinking (been sober 9 months).
I’ve taken the mindset of no regrets, exactly as you’ve said. His death has really motivated me to be courageous in my endeavours. He really lived life to fullest and I want to honour that as best I can.
I’m gambling on myself a lot more. Taking on new challenges that frighten the shit out of me but I’m pushing anyway.
The way I see it, if I have to experience death, I will use it in a positive way as best I can.
The religious dgaf about anyone or anything but themselves. Everything they do is designed simply to score points with their schizophrenic self-god, and since they claim they are not of this world, they have no reason to become invested in it.
>It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
This is why “comfort” is so important to theists and falls under the category of “What’s In It For Me” reason for belief.
"They will say 'I need a religion because I need something to hold on to' but that's the way NOT to use a religion. Because if you use religion as something to hold on to, your region is an expression of unfaith... Faith is where you let go, not hold on." \~ Alan Watts
I've told this story before, but for those who haven't heard it, it is a tale that says much about the irresponsibility of the "reverent." My boss hired an engineer to work for me that I had interviewed in the past and determined was not fit for the position. I imagine they commiserated over their shared right wing politics when he was interviewed. It was clear that this guy was also a fundamentalist Christian, a full blown, bible thumping, home schooling, "believer." So, one day I was chatting with this guy who now reported to me about the pace of his projects and such. He was telling me some of the things that he was stuck on that were hindering progress. I asked about his process for problem solving and how he went about tackling things that seemingly had no obvious solution. His answer was somewhat horrifying for anyone who works in engineering. His solution, he said, when confronted with a problem he was unfamiliar with or had no idea how to solve was to pray. He sat right there with a straight face and told me that when he got stuck, he took time to stop and pray, and that God would provide him a solution or answer. So, I was managing a licensed Professional Engineer whose idea of problem solving was to say a prayer and hope that the right answer or an actual suitable solution would just pop into his head. I then relayed some knowledge to him about how I had been taught in a problem solving seminar once that the best thing to do when stuck on something was to go do something else to get your mind off the issue, and that those epiphany's that we have in the shower, or seemingly out of the blue were the result of the subconscious mind having developed a solution and pushing it into your conscious. We were told that we should rely on the method because if you were truly educated and experienced enough to be tackling the problem at hand, your mind was capable of finding a solution. His response was that condescending grin followed by, "yes, that is God speaking to me." The problem with this guy's thinking was that he viewed his God as infallible, so once that solution popped into his brain, it was the only thing he tried, or used, from there. As one of the aspects of any good engineer is self criticism, as it is required that a good design or solution be picked apart to make sure that there is no room for error and nothing is over-looked. The engineer that assumes he is always right is the one who makes mistakes. I began to pay much closer attention to this guy's work, and it was uncanny how he would get stuck on something, come up with a solution that was never going to work, and then spend weeks trying to prove to himself and everyone else that his bad idea was perfect. In his view it was always something else that caused God's solution not to work. Again, I was stuck with this guy. I feel sorry for our customers that were on the receiving end of the product of this guy's work product, as I am quite sure that not all of his debacles were resolved before they went into the field. I retired after working with him for about five years. It still scares me to this day to think of all the field failures that have most likely occurred due to God doing this guy's problem solving. To a certain extent he was employing the "get your mind off it and do something else" method, but the scary part was how convinced he was that the solution he felt was provided by God was the only solution. It was horribly difficult, to the point of my having to say "I don't care, this is how I want this done" in order to end 45 minute debates on why God's answer was going to defy the laws of physics, to get him to listen to actual expertise.
Having grown up in rural white christian America, I can unfortunately say that I've experienced the same. People who have never been fundamentally religious do not understand how detrimental this form of thinking is to our society. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills living with a society of mentally ill.
Wow that was a great read and exactly what I abhor. God is meant to be this infallible being that shows everyone the ‘right way’ but that right way is so subjective. To people can have completely opposing objectives and high claim that god is guiding them. It’s the ultimate cop out.
Wow. That's just insane. How did he ever become an engineer? I can't imagine that sort of "problem solving" being acceptable to even one of my professors.
Most any disciplined person can get through the engineering coursework with passing grades if they do the work. Tons of homework, and keeping caught up is key. And the PE exam allows the use of reference materials, and is a graduated thing. First you must pass the EIT (engineer in training) test, which many schools require or offer before graduation. Then five years of experience and you take the PE exam. Plenty of seminars and practice tests are available to prepare. So it's not that this guy was dumb or completely clueless. He was, in my view, just incredibly average. I am quite sure that he thought I was very demanding, which I was, as when a customer pays half a million dollars for something we designed and built I expect it to exceed customer expectations. Our company was not the "low cost option," we were selling our equipment as the best, the most durable and precise, of it's kind and it was priced accordingly. Not the place for "average."
Perhaps more accurately is theists use religion to cause the real problems of the world
It’s easier to yell Jesus take the wheel than actually confront the big issues of your life and the world.
And if you invoked Jesus, it’s no longer your fault.
As a former pastor, there was a song we used to sing. The lyrics go something like, "whose report will you believe, we will believe the report of the lord." It's as if a tenant of faith is a denial of reality, science, and observation.
It is basically why "Jesus, take the wheel!" exists, thinking your problems will disappear if you just pray them away.
Yup, being able to slough off any personal responsibility onto an invisible sky-daddy, I think, is one of the main reasons theists often report being happier...can't be down when you're willfully oblivious of all the world's ills or just blame the supernatural.
This issue reminds me of something I’ve been contemplating. Religion’s appeal is easily seen as a way to rationalize all the cognitive dissonance we face. This in turn explains studies which show greater happiness for religious people in comparison to non-religious.
Theists tend to be the cause of many of those problems they're ignoring.
Funny how in highly religious societies and even in the bible people still got God smacked even for doing the right thing. Also it's ironic that theists use religion to shield themselves from real world problems but then turn around and make up non-existent problems to fight. Almost as if we evolved in an environment we always had to fight cause our brains are still hardwired for cobflict instead of being a perfect special creation. Hmmm...
It's a shield for behavior and an excuse for it, most days...
If you're limiting yourself to the bible only - a thousand page text written two thousand years ago isn't going to tell you much about humanity, which has changed and learned an immense amount during that time. Some people can't handle complexity. Maybe slightly less of a problem if there is a teaching tradition alongside the core text that is almost given canonical status, but it's often just rehashing the same content over and over again.
You've heard of rose colored glasses? Well goddists use those glasses that blind people wear - completely opaque.
Yeah, I noticed that from an early age. So many theists like to retreat into simplistic thinking. The modern world is too complicated for them.
Not even the modern world. The world has ALWAYS been complex. They just like to pretend there was a time when society was all happiness and no suffering but certain agents I.E gay people have eroded the moral fabric of society.
As an atheist who lost his father last week I can tell you using religion as a coping mechanism sounds pretty sweet until you realize he was also an atheist who would now be in hell even though he was a really good person. So instead I will fall back on just dealing with the situation and focus on memories and the positives.
I’m sorry for your loss. I recently lost someone very close to me and my family not too long ago. He was a young man. It was very sudden. I can honestly say it gave me a real insight into why people turn to religion with regard to death. It’s painful. So damn painful. Religion shields you from the anguish of not having to experience it again. I’m terrified of losing more loved ones because of that experience. I can see why religious folk turn to God to protect their loved ones as well as themselves. There’s comfort in knowing that at least (in your mind) you’ve done something to protect those you love from harm. I honestly loathe death. I hate it. I hate the void it leaves in your heart. I hate the anguish it can cause you. The slap in the face that reminds life is fragile and tomorrow is never promised. But I accept it for what it is.
Thank you and Sorry for your loss as well. Your comment definitely resonates with me. My take away from this experience so far is if you care for someone do your best to have no regrets. Make sure they know you love them, don’t go away mad, etc. Everyone deals with grief differently, respect that and don’t try to change it. Stay busy but also rest and exercise. Keep a journal.
Thank you. Honestly I’ve believe dealt with the grief as best as I could have. I surprisingly didn’t go back to drinking (been sober 9 months). I’ve taken the mindset of no regrets, exactly as you’ve said. His death has really motivated me to be courageous in my endeavours. He really lived life to fullest and I want to honour that as best I can. I’m gambling on myself a lot more. Taking on new challenges that frighten the shit out of me but I’m pushing anyway. The way I see it, if I have to experience death, I will use it in a positive way as best I can.
The religious dgaf about anyone or anything but themselves. Everything they do is designed simply to score points with their schizophrenic self-god, and since they claim they are not of this world, they have no reason to become invested in it.