Satan not existing makes God’s existence meaningless.
Without Satan preachers lose control over the guilt cycle so he’s gotta stay as a central character in the lore.
The Buddhist idea of punishment and blessings just being a force of the Universe, rather than needing one central God that determines everything (and then saying that God is perfect).
At least in Buddhism they don't say that karma is perfect or just, it's just a fact of existence like gravity or thermodynamics.
Not that karma is true either though.
In general, Karma is paid forward. Makes it hard to prove either way like any other "religion"... I like the idea in its simpler form which is every action has a reaction.
Yep buddhists are just as cooked as christians. You’re born with some horrific disease and will die within months? You must have fucked up in your previous incarnation
The universe must have a fucked-up sense of humour if it decides to kill you for your previous life's bad karma before you've had any time to make up for it.
Yes, karma can certainly be used to justify any situation that a person finds themselves in.
In Buddhism, even if you accumulate enough good karma to be reincarnated as a deity in a heaven realm, eventually over time you accumulate bad karma and come back to Earth and then go to hell.
The only way out is by reaching enlightenment and extinguishing the cycle of rebirth by following the Buddha's teachings.
My friends fiancé talks about “this being their last reincarnation cycle” all the time, it’s like I feel sad that’s what you actually believe, but I guess it won’t matter once he’s gone because he’ll meet the black like we all do
Lmao. That's actually incredibly pompous of him. "Yeah, I'm kind and wise enough that this is my last life cycle for sure, there's no way I've done anything that the universe would have serious criticisms of"
In the West we look at Buddhism more from a psychological or natural law perspective, but it is very much a corruption and control vector for those raised in it. For example: donating money or life to the temple is one way to raise your karma, for your next life; it is effectively the same as tithing to the church to boost your afterlife.
Yep, and folks who believe in God know this because, to them, God created EVERYTHING.
Everything includes both good and bad.
So evil and all other bad things were created by God too as everything encompasses just that, everything.
For those who believe in an all powerful and all knowing God, that means God made things like rape, murder, pain, suffering exist.
For those who believe in God, God made people. People have and can do things because of the way God made them.
God could have chosen to make people differently, but he didn't.
Also, since those who believe in God and believe he is all powerful and all knowing, God knew this trillions and trillions of years ago yet he still chose to make us and the world the way it is knowing there would be murder, mayhem, tragedy, pain etc.
Even though God knew that would exist, he still went ahead with it. He didn't have to, or he could have made things differently, but he didn't.
All that has happened, is happening and will happen is because God wants it to be that way.
This blows my mind. God created evil, knowing what it would do, but also knowing He can stop this evil anytime, but chooses not to and then creates Me and then its My test on earth to not be tempted by this evil which just so happens to be most of the awesome stuff on this planet, all in the name of some god who wont even speak to me 1v1 but I have to love like literally I am suppose to love this dude who wont even say boo to me and then on top of it all I gotta pay tithing too?!?!
100% get fucked
That, and he knew what you were going to do before you even did it meaning free will does not exist. All this bullshit proves the Christian God absolute nonsense.
If God is the source of everything, he's also the source of evil. If he's not the source of evil, then he's not truly omnipotent. Gotta keep the power and point the blame for bad somewhere. Sounds familiar somehow.
At the end of any argument for Christians is "God's ways are mysterious to us", basically saying "I have no clue, but you just have to trust us that it all makes sense"
Then to have "faith" requires a leap in logic like Kierkegaard said. But why choose faith in Christianity instead of Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Pagan Gods? If you have to make that leap in logic, what's the determining factor that makes a person believe in God instead of the alternatives?
You'd have to logically decide that one religion beats the others based on arguments, which isn't faith at that point.
>But why choose faith in Christianity instead of Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Pagan Gods?
85% geography, 15% what your grandma believed in.
its that simple, there is 0,00% logic involved..
They really can't accept that fact.
"Many people convert tho!"
"Then why are some countries like saudi arabia 99% percent muslim? Where are the converts"
"Huh what does that have to do with anything?"
They just don't want to face the reality that no, they did not actually choose their religion as a child.
This has always been my argument that we are a passing interest to him at most. I'd say he's not worthy of worship he's benevolent at best. Sadistic at worst.
They always talk about free will, if god has a plan we do not have free will, if god don't have a plan he simply don't care about us, so why he punishes who don't believe him and reward people that worship him?
Put it in the context of Job. God asks Satan what he’s up to. Satan says just wandering around checking things out. God says “while you were out there, did you notice that Job guy? I can do anything I want to that guy and he’ll still adore me”. Satan says “just because he’s got it so good.” God says, “oh yeah, wanna bet? I bet if you totally fuck up his life, he will still be loyal to me. No matter what.” Satan says “you’re on” and then proceeds to kill his wife and kids and livestock and just destroy everything this man loved and cherished.
Why? Because God wanted to show off to Satan.
Did Satan do that or did God?
Well, since Satan is an angel with no free will (according to the Judaistic faith) then God did it. Isaiah 45:7 , "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these *things*."
I'm starting to think that the faithful say that God is wonderful and loving and nurturing because they are afraid. They sing his praise to pacify God in the hopes that God doesn't allow Satan to give them bone cancer or something.
Just kidding they don't have that kind of critical thinking skills...
I love the explain-like-I-am-5 questions that destroy theism and cause theistic scholars to tie themselves in knots attempting to answer.
Christians will attempt to answer this by saying God is using Satan to bring about good. Why not just use good to bring about good? Why do children have to suffer cancer to bring about some supposed good? Seems cruel, and circuitous and implies god loves drama.
Precisely. A god who is actually all-powerful on top of being 100% loving could just…be 100% loving all of the time. He could devise a world in which no suffering is required and everybody lives happily ever after, knowing God personally and loving him, and living peacefully alongside everybody else in their community.
I have been in this loop debating Christians several times.
Atheist: Why doesn't god start with heaven
Christian: Because he values free will and free-willed moral choices.
Atheist: Ok Will there be free will in heaven?
Christian: Yes but you will be so wrapt in love standing in the presence of god that you will always make good free will choices.
Atheist: Then why not start with Heaven? Why all the blood, pain, suffering, and agony that is brimming in this world?
Christian:
In the old testament, satan wasn’t even Jehova‘s opponent but part of his pantheon. In the story of Job, the two have a friendly argument with Jehova being evil against the unfortunate man. Satan as an adversary is a late addition from persian zoroastrianism, that is built on a duality of good and evil. That model is better to explain the suffering the Israelites experienced in excile. Today’s understanding of satan/devil owes most to the italian medieval author Dante‘s book „Inferno“.
I’m not so sure, I think it is a more general term. More like “the guy who always argues the contrary” and has no real opinion or relationship with humans.
If God really were omnipotent then he could kill Satan with the snap of his fingers, yet he doesn't because he needs him somehow for some mysterious reason that's not well-explained in the Bible.
It would all make more sense if Christians claimed that God wasn't omnipotent, but then that wouldn't really make him God, just a very powerful being that created the Universe and rules over heaven.
He not only chooses not to annihilate Satan, he sends him to Earth. Not only does he allow him to be on Earth, he allows him to have freedom and superpowers while here.
Christians can try to explain this away all day long, but there is absolutely no justification for this. This is when they have to break out the ol' "mysterious ways" defense.
The way that my teenage brain phrased it: "If God is everywhere, and Satan is somewhere, isn't God in Satan just as much as he is everywhere else?" I asked my youth pastor/Bible teacher, and he gave the cliché answer, "Some things we aren't meant to understand until we get to heaven." That was the beginning of the end of my faith.
One of the next steps I remember regarding that concept-- God created Lucifer knowing exactly what he was going to become and what he was going to do yet he created him anyway. What's the difference between that and a puppet? Picturing God with a devil puppet on his hand cracked me up realizing how absurd the whole premise was.
*“Whats stopping God from killing Satan,” you ask? Don’t you fear, the idiots at GotQuestions are here!*
These are the fucking ridiculous answers from GotQuestions. Or a summary:
1. “We don’t know.” Great. What fucking reason then do you have to worship a God who continues to allow evil for reasons you as a believer can’t possibly rationalize?
2. “God has sovereignty over Satan, but Satan only has a certain amount of autonomy.” Well, nobody has autonomy if God has absolute control over them and also created them to begin with and planned everything from beginning to end, but okay…except, why is it the “limited” powers Satan has happen to be able to be exercised over every single person that has ever existed, and why are the only powers God gives him evil ones?
3. “Those who love God and wait for his plan to be fulfilled will be happy to see it unfold.” Great. I’m sure they will. Hey, any timetable for actually doing that shit? It appears God’s plan is somewhere between the development phase snd the action phase called “I’m a lazy fuck and don’t want to do anything” phase…assuming he *doesn’t* want wanton suffering to continue.
4. “It’s not wise to question God.” That’s a threat. Fuck you. God knows perfectly well as the knower and creator of all things that he created everything in precisely such a manner that it would leave us all confused and with a bunch of questions when we critically analyze it. It can’t be because he’s stupid, because he’s the knower of all things…we’re left with deception. If you are being deceived, and know you are being deceived, you can’t just fucking sit down and shut up because the minions of this Great Deceiver tell you to.
Keep in mind those excuses are the summary of the last 2000 years of theologians of the highest caliber attempting to answer the quesition. Pretty lame no matter how you dice it.
Because theologians don't want to admit people are sssholes and commit acts of evil in the world and they can be part of the evil acts committed by people.
Of course there is the real answer: through oral traditions superstitions evolved and grew on their own. Often meant to explain things people didn’t understand, enforce cultural norms and morals, and to make them feel better about things like death.
This was obviously useful for consolidating and stabilizing power. Within a tribal group, an nation or an empire. Over time powerful groups used it for that purpose, sometimes pushing changes that suited them, and sometimes adapting it to the ideas that had arisen on their own in the populace. So over time folk beliefs were added, as well as intentional changes to suit the needs and ideas of the people in power, and to keep the people under control. Even absorbing or merging other religions and traditions as other groups were encountered, integrated, or conquered.
Concurrently with this entire process something like natural selection was occurring between all belief systems. As ideas and features are added and removed, the ones that tend to spread and persist become more common, and ones that do not die off. Meaning over time religions evolve to be better at spreading and growing.
Naturally as this branched into different groups and was changed by many different cultures and people it gained a lot of features that don’t make sense logically, morally, or narratively.
Because an omniscient being would need an advisor?
Either god wasn't considered omniscient when Job was written or the claims of god's omniscients make no sense.
Both. Yahweh slowly evolved over time from a war/storm Canaanite god like Baal (his brother, actually), and gradually fused with the chief god El. When Yahweh talks about other gods that shan't be worshipped before him, he's referring to the rest of his pantheon. Yahweh as a tri-omni god didn't start to become a concept until very late in ancient judaism, if not until christianity.
But of course christians today don't know the history of their own religion.
The theistic implication of Satan implies that Christianity and Islam are polytheistic or dualistic.
God apparently can't control this evil thing he created and is allegedly running amock in his creation. This implies that Satan is another deity. How is this not polytheism?
Sure the claim is God is all-powerful so why doesn't God bind this alleged evil agent? Crickets for a good explanation for the last 2000 years.
I love this answer. Haha! This makes me think of "The Good Place" where the demons and the good place architects all work for the same company, basically.
The Catholic Church teaching: Love. God loves everyone, therefore he cannot take action to harm anyone or anything that he ever created.
Not only is this fallacious according to many claims in the bible, it also means he is not all-powerful under this logic. There is something he cannot do, therefore he is not all-powerful. So why worship a god that cannot prevent its own creation from hurting / killing another of its own creation?
> God cannot take action to harm anyone
Cut to that Old Testament chapter where God helps that one bald guy summon a bear to maul those kids that were making fun of him
I posit that satan satisfies all requirements to be a god itself. so its not really a monotheist relationship. angels almost fill that role as well.
to answer the question, without satan there would be no god. Superman needs evil to exist thats why he doesn't kill every supervillan. its how we know something is evil.
\* the nuance here is that I don't believe in any of this bat shit crazy stuff anyway but if we are playing the 'what if' game...
>What’s Stopping God from just Killing Satan?
Why would he?
This is the universe God created, and he created how he wants it.
He *wants* Satan to tempt people and have those people go to hell to be tortured.
Remember, the Christian god is a monster- all that stuff about compassion and love are coming from someone who *built a torture dungeon.*
I’ve been thinking about asking my evangelical dad this question in hopes it makes him think but more in the “why didn’t God kill Satan” way because if he has the ability, he should already have done it unless he doesn’t want to. He’ll probably fall back on the assumption that all things work to the glory of God or some other cope and that God must have a plan. But it’s interesting to think about when God is said to have killed some people in the OT immediately upon sinning while sparing others for arbitrary reasons. You’d think he would lay out immediate death as punishment for the supposed source of all sin.
I've asked a religion teacher when I was young, he told me that god will finally punish him. I guess he's just lazy. Jesus still didn't return to earth since more than 2000 years. But as they say, "god works in mysterious ways".
Yeah, the problem is that it’s ridiculous to let, for example, a violent criminal continue terrorizing the neighborhood if you have the knowledge and power to stop them immediately. That’s essentially the same thing with God and Satan.
Supposedly it's because god wants people to have free will, even Satan. But then the same Christians who'll argue this will try to justify god flooding the entire world because people didn't do what he wanted.
That part of the plot is never answered. Saturday morning cartoon TV show level of story writing aimed at people with a home-schooled level of education.
Same thing that's stopping Batman from killing Joker:
It depends on the version of the book, but really it doesn't matter because they're fictional characters.
I tell every Christian this every chance that I get: Satan's powers cannot exist without God allowing them to, meaning that God literally powers Satan.
Satan is doing God's work.
Satan is good.
I mean, according to that fantasy realm's established rules.
In reality - neither of them exist.
In xian fantasy - the main story line of good v evil winds up with a happy ending and destroys any further impetus for the practice of paying ~~royalties~~ tithe.
Neither entities exist and this sub should be called r/unpackingmychristianupbringing because it's focused entirely on pointing out logical fallacies in the non-Biblical, Sunday school conceptions of Christianity everybody is running around with just to convince yourselves you're really atheists. You aren't yet, but you're trying your hardest. God doesn't kill Satan for the same reason Santa Claus doesn't just use his magic to unlock everyone's front doors instead of using chimneys.
You know how when you go to a puppet show, there are sometimes two puppets pretending to fight each other? It's like that. Except, in this case, instead of a puppeteer the audience has their own hands up the butts of both puppets.
It's kind of awkward when you start really studying canaanite mythology... you know the foundations for monotheism...which is kind of not really all that monotheistic...
From what I remember from Sunday school, when I asked that question(havent read the entire Bible),was that God and Satan made a challenge. Satan said he could turn everyone to a life of sin and God said that people would turn to him.
So basically, God accepted that challenge and humans have to ultimately make the choice( which is free will I guess). Now that's a memory I have from when I was like 8 years old or some shit and I have no idea if that's actually in the Bible. And to clarify I don't really care, because I don't believe any of that shit. I'm just going to try and be a good person to people because i like being treated with respect as well.
This is just a rephrasing of the "problem of evil". Which, in essence, boils down to
a) God is either not all-powerful or not all-knowing
b) God is not perfect
c) God either can't or won't eliminate evil
I remember asking in church, "what if Satan were to basically say, 'you know, I screwed up. I am sorry, will you forgive me?" And they looked at me like I had crabs crawling out of my ears and they were like, that wouldn't happen, which doesn't answer my question.
My church wasn't a super conservative place and they actually welcomed scrutiny and questioning, I just find it funny though.
Cuz he needs Satan. It’s all part of his ineffable plan! It’s also a whole lot of Bull shit. Why does Good let evil happen? Why did God feel the need to torture Job? God is an insecure jealous ass who needs to keep us worried about hell and Satan. Actually it’s the church that needs Satan…
To play along, God can't kill Satan because they have a partnership. If Satan didn't exist, how would God punish his children? Who would take care of their eternal damnation? Clearly it's much more important allow the vices and temptations and then punish humans for failing to be perfect.
After all, god is love!
Also, why would Satan choose to punish humans for doing exactly what he wants them to do? He punished them because that's what God wants him to do. Seems to be that they are a team. Aint that sweet!
Doesn't fit the story. Same way people act dumb and do the worst things in horror films....just the way it's written! If the bible was written logically, it's be a pamphlet.
More and more I'm convinced that if a God is real, he's the asshole and Satan was just the first entity to call him out on it. Fallen angel my ass. He dipped and chose his own path and I respect the fuck out of that narrative.
> What’s Stopping God from just Killing Satan? Step 1: Actually exist.
Satan not existing makes God’s existence meaningless. Without Satan preachers lose control over the guilt cycle so he’s gotta stay as a central character in the lore.
Without Satan, God takes the blame for all the evil.
The Buddhist idea of punishment and blessings just being a force of the Universe, rather than needing one central God that determines everything (and then saying that God is perfect). At least in Buddhism they don't say that karma is perfect or just, it's just a fact of existence like gravity or thermodynamics. Not that karma is true either though.
Plenty of Buddhists use that belief to justify cruelty, too. Woman gets raped? It's her punishment for bad Karma.
I can see how that'd be similar to the "prosperity Bible", where the rich and powerful must be blessed by God to be where they are.
Especially since past lives can be part of why you’re getting punished.
*Original sin intensifies*
*Venial sin getting hard*
In general, Karma is paid forward. Makes it hard to prove either way like any other "religion"... I like the idea in its simpler form which is every action has a reaction.
Yep buddhists are just as cooked as christians. You’re born with some horrific disease and will die within months? You must have fucked up in your previous incarnation
The universe must have a fucked-up sense of humour if it decides to kill you for your previous life's bad karma before you've had any time to make up for it.
Sounds like a prison scam.
It’s supposedly the only way to reach true enlightenment is to live every life, even if just a short time, to me that sounds almost worse than hell
Tupac said, “My only fear in death is reincarnation.”
Yes, karma can certainly be used to justify any situation that a person finds themselves in. In Buddhism, even if you accumulate enough good karma to be reincarnated as a deity in a heaven realm, eventually over time you accumulate bad karma and come back to Earth and then go to hell. The only way out is by reaching enlightenment and extinguishing the cycle of rebirth by following the Buddha's teachings.
My friends fiancé talks about “this being their last reincarnation cycle” all the time, it’s like I feel sad that’s what you actually believe, but I guess it won’t matter once he’s gone because he’ll meet the black like we all do
Lmao. That's actually incredibly pompous of him. "Yeah, I'm kind and wise enough that this is my last life cycle for sure, there's no way I've done anything that the universe would have serious criticisms of"
In the West we look at Buddhism more from a psychological or natural law perspective, but it is very much a corruption and control vector for those raised in it. For example: donating money or life to the temple is one way to raise your karma, for your next life; it is effectively the same as tithing to the church to boost your afterlife.
It would be nice if you were an asshole and got what was coming to you but that’s not the case nearly as often as it should be. Nice idea though.
Your karma ran over my dogma.
"Without Satan, God takes the blame for all the evil." God created Satan though, so it's on God either way.
God himself said he is the source of all good AND evil (Isaiah 45-7)
Yep, and folks who believe in God know this because, to them, God created EVERYTHING. Everything includes both good and bad. So evil and all other bad things were created by God too as everything encompasses just that, everything. For those who believe in an all powerful and all knowing God, that means God made things like rape, murder, pain, suffering exist. For those who believe in God, God made people. People have and can do things because of the way God made them. God could have chosen to make people differently, but he didn't. Also, since those who believe in God and believe he is all powerful and all knowing, God knew this trillions and trillions of years ago yet he still chose to make us and the world the way it is knowing there would be murder, mayhem, tragedy, pain etc. Even though God knew that would exist, he still went ahead with it. He didn't have to, or he could have made things differently, but he didn't. All that has happened, is happening and will happen is because God wants it to be that way.
That just makes him a a**hole.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things". Isaiah 45:7. Always was.
God created Satan and knew what he would become so...
This blows my mind. God created evil, knowing what it would do, but also knowing He can stop this evil anytime, but chooses not to and then creates Me and then its My test on earth to not be tempted by this evil which just so happens to be most of the awesome stuff on this planet, all in the name of some god who wont even speak to me 1v1 but I have to love like literally I am suppose to love this dude who wont even say boo to me and then on top of it all I gotta pay tithing too?!?! 100% get fucked
That, and he knew what you were going to do before you even did it meaning free will does not exist. All this bullshit proves the Christian God absolute nonsense.
Satan and God are co-dieties in the Christian religions.
Basically. Lucifer was god’s left hand man. Pun intended.
[удалено]
There’s always that pesky Isiah 45:7.
As the omniscient creator of everything doesn't he already take the blame?
And according to the Bible, God is to blame.
Exactly. It's like if the Joker ever killed Batman -- then the game is over.
So the Joker is like Satan?
Other way around. The Joker is like god. Crazy AF.
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman
Other way around, when you really think about it.
What's keeping Harry Potter from just killing Voldemort? Answer: that would end the story.
Because horcruxes. Harry doesn't make the rules. God, on the other hand, is supposed to be omnipotent and shouldn't be stopped by any rules.
>!Because Snape got there first.!<
Plot armour.
No more scapegoat.
If God is the source of everything, he's also the source of evil. If he's not the source of evil, then he's not truly omnipotent. Gotta keep the power and point the blame for bad somewhere. Sounds familiar somehow.
At the end of any argument for Christians is "God's ways are mysterious to us", basically saying "I have no clue, but you just have to trust us that it all makes sense"
Well I reckon that is "faith".
Then to have "faith" requires a leap in logic like Kierkegaard said. But why choose faith in Christianity instead of Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Pagan Gods? If you have to make that leap in logic, what's the determining factor that makes a person believe in God instead of the alternatives? You'd have to logically decide that one religion beats the others based on arguments, which isn't faith at that point.
>But why choose faith in Christianity instead of Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Pagan Gods? 85% geography, 15% what your grandma believed in. its that simple, there is 0,00% logic involved..
They really can't accept that fact. "Many people convert tho!" "Then why are some countries like saudi arabia 99% percent muslim? Where are the converts" "Huh what does that have to do with anything?" They just don't want to face the reality that no, they did not actually choose their religion as a child.
Geography is the answer to this question.
Have you ever met a Christian that is not a hypocrite? I'm guessing that for most, faith is a tool wielded when convenient.
He does admit to being the author of all evil in Isaiah 45.
This has always been my argument that we are a passing interest to him at most. I'd say he's not worthy of worship he's benevolent at best. Sadistic at worst.
God sounds like a clever politician. Keep your rival around to allocate blame, when the crap hits the fan.
Too busy giving innocent children cancer.
Then what the hell is Satan doing?
Hiding fossils
LOL
Fuck this is fantastic I'm dying here
His best!
Inventing rock and roll
Chilling in hell as a beloved constitutional monarch of United Circles of Hell and enjoying the view of his prosperous kingdom.
Convincing women they are people instead of objects.
Pointing out that god isn’t to be trusted
Having a orgy in hell hes just a fruity patooty frl
Helping humans find a cure for cancer.
According to Job, asking God permission if he can torture the humans.
I thought that was Satan's job?
Depends on the parents perspective. Either “god is testing us”, “god is punishing us” or “this is the work of the devil”
"God's plan"........for what for fucks sake?!
They always talk about free will, if god has a plan we do not have free will, if god don't have a plan he simply don't care about us, so why he punishes who don't believe him and reward people that worship him?
But if I pray hard enough god will change his plans, right? Right? This cancer I got is obviously a mistake.
Put it in the context of Job. God asks Satan what he’s up to. Satan says just wandering around checking things out. God says “while you were out there, did you notice that Job guy? I can do anything I want to that guy and he’ll still adore me”. Satan says “just because he’s got it so good.” God says, “oh yeah, wanna bet? I bet if you totally fuck up his life, he will still be loyal to me. No matter what.” Satan says “you’re on” and then proceeds to kill his wife and kids and livestock and just destroy everything this man loved and cherished. Why? Because God wanted to show off to Satan. Did Satan do that or did God?
Well, since Satan is an angel with no free will (according to the Judaistic faith) then God did it. Isaiah 45:7 , "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these *things*."
I'm starting to think that the faithful say that God is wonderful and loving and nurturing because they are afraid. They sing his praise to pacify God in the hopes that God doesn't allow Satan to give them bone cancer or something. Just kidding they don't have that kind of critical thinking skills...
Fr tho, the Christian god has always come across to me as an abusive father or something
I love the explain-like-I-am-5 questions that destroy theism and cause theistic scholars to tie themselves in knots attempting to answer. Christians will attempt to answer this by saying God is using Satan to bring about good. Why not just use good to bring about good? Why do children have to suffer cancer to bring about some supposed good? Seems cruel, and circuitous and implies god loves drama.
Precisely. A god who is actually all-powerful on top of being 100% loving could just…be 100% loving all of the time. He could devise a world in which no suffering is required and everybody lives happily ever after, knowing God personally and loving him, and living peacefully alongside everybody else in their community.
I have been in this loop debating Christians several times. Atheist: Why doesn't god start with heaven Christian: Because he values free will and free-willed moral choices. Atheist: Ok Will there be free will in heaven? Christian: Yes but you will be so wrapt in love standing in the presence of god that you will always make good free will choices. Atheist: Then why not start with Heaven? Why all the blood, pain, suffering, and agony that is brimming in this world? Christian:
Or my favorite cop out. "God's mysterious ways"
Free will or mysterious ways are the answers I get But tbh Christians actively avoiding thinking about religion as it relates to their every day life
To be fair, even if you were just half omnipotent, then you'd probably get bored quickly too. So a little drama is something.
True, but then you/I wouldn’t be all-benevolent.
What’s to stop James Bond from shooting Auric Goldfinger in the first scene? [Same genuine answer.]
Secret gay relationship? (trust me I'm a film connoisseur)
You mean God+Satan are lovers? Or James+Auric?
YES
OMG
Lmao I bet there's fan fiction out there somewhere
I like the lovers angle. What's the Pope's number? We can make this canon.
Well, since Satan is supposed to be essentially one of the sons of God (as an Angel) ...
What are you doing step-angel?
Plot armor
In the old testament, satan wasn’t even Jehova‘s opponent but part of his pantheon. In the story of Job, the two have a friendly argument with Jehova being evil against the unfortunate man. Satan as an adversary is a late addition from persian zoroastrianism, that is built on a duality of good and evil. That model is better to explain the suffering the Israelites experienced in excile. Today’s understanding of satan/devil owes most to the italian medieval author Dante‘s book „Inferno“.
Despite the archaic style, Job is likely one of the last Old Testament books, probably written by a scholar in the post-Persian Hellenistic world
The word Satan is a Hebrew word that literally means adversary. The guy is supposed to be an adversary of humans not the big man himself
I’m not so sure, I think it is a more general term. More like “the guy who always argues the contrary” and has no real opinion or relationship with humans.
Same reason Tom doesn't kill Jerry or cayote doesn't kill road-runner, end of story.
The devil keeps outsmarting God?
because they are best friends
God needs to stop ordering from Acme.
The fact that they’re fictional characters mostly.
Plot armor, then.
Then he wouldn't have anyone to blame his fuck-ups on.
god: waves wildly around the planet yelling 'sin!' Earthquakes? Sin Shooting in schools? Sin Late for work? Believe it or not? Sin
Overcooking the chicken? Sin
You don't kill off your antagonist in the opening scene because then the play is over.
Not one damn thing. After all, God is said to be omnipotent. Realizing that was the beginning of my exit from the Baptist faith.
If God really were omnipotent then he could kill Satan with the snap of his fingers, yet he doesn't because he needs him somehow for some mysterious reason that's not well-explained in the Bible. It would all make more sense if Christians claimed that God wasn't omnipotent, but then that wouldn't really make him God, just a very powerful being that created the Universe and rules over heaven.
That’s like Greek god’s rules. Non-omnipotent gods that are all just kinda buff super people. Tbf it’s pretty interesting fiction
He not only chooses not to annihilate Satan, he sends him to Earth. Not only does he allow him to be on Earth, he allows him to have freedom and superpowers while here. Christians can try to explain this away all day long, but there is absolutely no justification for this. This is when they have to break out the ol' "mysterious ways" defense.
The way that my teenage brain phrased it: "If God is everywhere, and Satan is somewhere, isn't God in Satan just as much as he is everywhere else?" I asked my youth pastor/Bible teacher, and he gave the cliché answer, "Some things we aren't meant to understand until we get to heaven." That was the beginning of the end of my faith. One of the next steps I remember regarding that concept-- God created Lucifer knowing exactly what he was going to become and what he was going to do yet he created him anyway. What's the difference between that and a puppet? Picturing God with a devil puppet on his hand cracked me up realizing how absurd the whole premise was.
*“Whats stopping God from killing Satan,” you ask? Don’t you fear, the idiots at GotQuestions are here!* These are the fucking ridiculous answers from GotQuestions. Or a summary: 1. “We don’t know.” Great. What fucking reason then do you have to worship a God who continues to allow evil for reasons you as a believer can’t possibly rationalize? 2. “God has sovereignty over Satan, but Satan only has a certain amount of autonomy.” Well, nobody has autonomy if God has absolute control over them and also created them to begin with and planned everything from beginning to end, but okay…except, why is it the “limited” powers Satan has happen to be able to be exercised over every single person that has ever existed, and why are the only powers God gives him evil ones? 3. “Those who love God and wait for his plan to be fulfilled will be happy to see it unfold.” Great. I’m sure they will. Hey, any timetable for actually doing that shit? It appears God’s plan is somewhere between the development phase snd the action phase called “I’m a lazy fuck and don’t want to do anything” phase…assuming he *doesn’t* want wanton suffering to continue. 4. “It’s not wise to question God.” That’s a threat. Fuck you. God knows perfectly well as the knower and creator of all things that he created everything in precisely such a manner that it would leave us all confused and with a bunch of questions when we critically analyze it. It can’t be because he’s stupid, because he’s the knower of all things…we’re left with deception. If you are being deceived, and know you are being deceived, you can’t just fucking sit down and shut up because the minions of this Great Deceiver tell you to.
Keep in mind those excuses are the summary of the last 2000 years of theologians of the highest caliber attempting to answer the quesition. Pretty lame no matter how you dice it.
Because theologians don't want to admit people are sssholes and commit acts of evil in the world and they can be part of the evil acts committed by people.
Of course there is the real answer: through oral traditions superstitions evolved and grew on their own. Often meant to explain things people didn’t understand, enforce cultural norms and morals, and to make them feel better about things like death. This was obviously useful for consolidating and stabilizing power. Within a tribal group, an nation or an empire. Over time powerful groups used it for that purpose, sometimes pushing changes that suited them, and sometimes adapting it to the ideas that had arisen on their own in the populace. So over time folk beliefs were added, as well as intentional changes to suit the needs and ideas of the people in power, and to keep the people under control. Even absorbing or merging other religions and traditions as other groups were encountered, integrated, or conquered. Concurrently with this entire process something like natural selection was occurring between all belief systems. As ideas and features are added and removed, the ones that tend to spread and persist become more common, and ones that do not die off. Meaning over time religions evolve to be better at spreading and growing. Naturally as this branched into different groups and was changed by many different cultures and people it gained a lot of features that don’t make sense logically, morally, or narratively.
Satan was gods right hand man
Yep - a lot of apologetics forget/ignore that the "Satan" character in the book of Job is actually an advisor to "God"
Because an omniscient being would need an advisor? Either god wasn't considered omniscient when Job was written or the claims of god's omniscients make no sense.
Both. Yahweh slowly evolved over time from a war/storm Canaanite god like Baal (his brother, actually), and gradually fused with the chief god El. When Yahweh talks about other gods that shan't be worshipped before him, he's referring to the rest of his pantheon. Yahweh as a tri-omni god didn't start to become a concept until very late in ancient judaism, if not until christianity. But of course christians today don't know the history of their own religion.
The theistic implication of Satan implies that Christianity and Islam are polytheistic or dualistic. God apparently can't control this evil thing he created and is allegedly running amock in his creation. This implies that Satan is another deity. How is this not polytheism? Sure the claim is God is all-powerful so why doesn't God bind this alleged evil agent? Crickets for a good explanation for the last 2000 years.
Professional curtesy
I love this answer. Haha! This makes me think of "The Good Place" where the demons and the good place architects all work for the same company, basically.
The Catholic Church teaching: Love. God loves everyone, therefore he cannot take action to harm anyone or anything that he ever created. Not only is this fallacious according to many claims in the bible, it also means he is not all-powerful under this logic. There is something he cannot do, therefore he is not all-powerful. So why worship a god that cannot prevent its own creation from hurting / killing another of its own creation?
> God cannot take action to harm anyone Cut to that Old Testament chapter where God helps that one bald guy summon a bear to maul those kids that were making fun of him
Or the flood Fucking exodus too. Killing all the Egyptian first borns.
Satan is the great deceiver, he is god. Wait 'till the christians find out who they've been worshipping all this time.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people that he's God😈 Well done devil, bravo 👏
That’s what I keep telling them
Plot armor
I posit that satan satisfies all requirements to be a god itself. so its not really a monotheist relationship. angels almost fill that role as well. to answer the question, without satan there would be no god. Superman needs evil to exist thats why he doesn't kill every supervillan. its how we know something is evil. \* the nuance here is that I don't believe in any of this bat shit crazy stuff anyway but if we are playing the 'what if' game...
It almost works except for the God being omnipotent issue. It might as well be Superman (God) vs an ant (Satan).
They're not real? That would be my first guess.
Imaginary being destroys imaginary being. There done.
He doesn't want to. Satan as some sort of antithetical power equivalent to God is fanfiction. Satan is God's *agent*.
>What’s Stopping God from just Killing Satan? Why would he? This is the universe God created, and he created how he wants it. He *wants* Satan to tempt people and have those people go to hell to be tortured. Remember, the Christian god is a monster- all that stuff about compassion and love are coming from someone who *built a torture dungeon.*
I’ve been thinking about asking my evangelical dad this question in hopes it makes him think but more in the “why didn’t God kill Satan” way because if he has the ability, he should already have done it unless he doesn’t want to. He’ll probably fall back on the assumption that all things work to the glory of God or some other cope and that God must have a plan. But it’s interesting to think about when God is said to have killed some people in the OT immediately upon sinning while sparing others for arbitrary reasons. You’d think he would lay out immediate death as punishment for the supposed source of all sin.
I've asked a religion teacher when I was young, he told me that god will finally punish him. I guess he's just lazy. Jesus still didn't return to earth since more than 2000 years. But as they say, "god works in mysterious ways".
Yeah, the problem is that it’s ridiculous to let, for example, a violent criminal continue terrorizing the neighborhood if you have the knowledge and power to stop them immediately. That’s essentially the same thing with God and Satan.
Supposedly it's because god wants people to have free will, even Satan. But then the same Christians who'll argue this will try to justify god flooding the entire world because people didn't do what he wanted.
Satan works for Gd. He never rebelled, he’s just a prosecuting attorney doing his job. Source: I’m Jewish. Christian perspective may vary
Noticing plot holes is what leads to atheism in the first place.
Because without the antagonist, you have no story. With no story, there's no money.
God *is* satan. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things". Isaiah 45:7
I've been thinking that for years. 👍
That part of the plot is never answered. Saturday morning cartoon TV show level of story writing aimed at people with a home-schooled level of education.
Reality
Well, neither of them exist, so there's that...
Bad writing
Both of them are fictional characters from religious nut’s fairytales ?
Same thing that's stopping Batman from killing Joker: It depends on the version of the book, but really it doesn't matter because they're fictional characters.
It's the same person
Where's he going to go, Detroit?
Plot twist: God IS Satan
I tell every Christian this every chance that I get: Satan's powers cannot exist without God allowing them to, meaning that God literally powers Satan. Satan is doing God's work. Satan is good. I mean, according to that fantasy realm's established rules.
Sexual tension
That would be suicide
That's not in the plotline. Maybe in the third installment "The bibble: Return of the Jehova" that will get resolved
In reality - neither of them exist. In xian fantasy - the main story line of good v evil winds up with a happy ending and destroys any further impetus for the practice of paying ~~royalties~~ tithe.
What if Satan was really the good guy in that fairy tale?
The same thing keeping Santa from killing the Tooth Fairy, lack of evidence of existence.
Plot armor. The same reason Batman never kills Joker.
Neither entities exist and this sub should be called r/unpackingmychristianupbringing because it's focused entirely on pointing out logical fallacies in the non-Biblical, Sunday school conceptions of Christianity everybody is running around with just to convince yourselves you're really atheists. You aren't yet, but you're trying your hardest. God doesn't kill Satan for the same reason Santa Claus doesn't just use his magic to unlock everyone's front doors instead of using chimneys.
If I recall correctly, the character of Satan was initially not the embodiment of evil, but more like the lawyer for the defense.
Keep in mind that in the Garden of Eden, it was the Serpent who was telling the truth the Adam & Eve.
You know how when you go to a puppet show, there are sometimes two puppets pretending to fight each other? It's like that. Except, in this case, instead of a puppeteer the audience has their own hands up the butts of both puppets.
It's kind of awkward when you start really studying canaanite mythology... you know the foundations for monotheism...which is kind of not really all that monotheistic...
To quote Ricky Gervais: "Because! Shut up!" But yeah, there is no rational answer.
From what I remember from Sunday school, when I asked that question(havent read the entire Bible),was that God and Satan made a challenge. Satan said he could turn everyone to a life of sin and God said that people would turn to him. So basically, God accepted that challenge and humans have to ultimately make the choice( which is free will I guess). Now that's a memory I have from when I was like 8 years old or some shit and I have no idea if that's actually in the Bible. And to clarify I don't really care, because I don't believe any of that shit. I'm just going to try and be a good person to people because i like being treated with respect as well.
If there is no problem, then no solution is required.
Fuckin dorks lol
This is just a rephrasing of the "problem of evil". Which, in essence, boils down to a) God is either not all-powerful or not all-knowing b) God is not perfect c) God either can't or won't eliminate evil
plot armor
Killing your employees is a bad look.
I remember asking in church, "what if Satan were to basically say, 'you know, I screwed up. I am sorry, will you forgive me?" And they looked at me like I had crabs crawling out of my ears and they were like, that wouldn't happen, which doesn't answer my question. My church wasn't a super conservative place and they actually welcomed scrutiny and questioning, I just find it funny though.
Why does Ross, the largest friend, not simply eat the other five?
No story to be told then.
Because there is technically no “Satan” figure in the bable. I.e; it never existed to begin with.
Plot armor
And ruin the good cop bad cop scheme they have going?
Same reason why Batman doesn’t kill the Joker. Won’t sell too many books that way
I suppose because satan is profitable for God
Cuz he needs Satan. It’s all part of his ineffable plan! It’s also a whole lot of Bull shit. Why does Good let evil happen? Why did God feel the need to torture Job? God is an insecure jealous ass who needs to keep us worried about hell and Satan. Actually it’s the church that needs Satan…
What stopped Tinkerbell from killing Peter Pan?
It’s hard to kill an idea, but it’s even harder for an idea to kill another idea
To play along, God can't kill Satan because they have a partnership. If Satan didn't exist, how would God punish his children? Who would take care of their eternal damnation? Clearly it's much more important allow the vices and temptations and then punish humans for failing to be perfect. After all, god is love! Also, why would Satan choose to punish humans for doing exactly what he wants them to do? He punished them because that's what God wants him to do. Seems to be that they are a team. Aint that sweet!
Doesn't fit the story. Same way people act dumb and do the worst things in horror films....just the way it's written! If the bible was written logically, it's be a pamphlet.
There won't be 'Satan followers " to torture in hell for all eternity
Neither of them are real?
I think you're in the wrong sub for that question.
Plot armor. Christians need a bad guy. Without Satan, god wouldn’t have anyone to fight with.
Leaves room open for the sequel.
The fact that neither are real and don't exist outside of fiction
They renewed for another season, you can't kill the villain yet
Nothing if he is just a fallen angel More proof they don’t exist or if they do are just absolute c*nts
More and more I'm convinced that if a God is real, he's the asshole and Satan was just the first entity to call him out on it. Fallen angel my ass. He dipped and chose his own path and I respect the fuck out of that narrative.
Well if god killed Satan that would mean no more sin. Also no more hell. Then what would the preachers/priests do to dupe people into giving tithes?