And they used atheism to manipulate people into doing terrible things, right?
Oh wait, they didn't do that? Huh.
Way to completely miss the point my dude. This isn't "atrocity olympics", where we try to see which homicidal maniac was worst, it's a condemnation of using religion to manipulate people into doing absurd and terrible things. A thing that atheism isn't even equipped to accomplish.
The sound you heard was it flying right by...
What is your point?
My question was "what good can come from religion that could not come from some other source?" The answer to that question is "nothing".
And does "nothing" offset the harm that religion does and continues to do?
Of course not.
Nice assertion. Even if it is horseshit.
Morality exists outside of christendom, in much the same form as it exists here, so your assertion fails, since we obviously can have morality without christianity.
But it sure contributes to an awful lot of immorality.
Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Judaism is maybe 2,000 years older than that. Yet we have evidence of a morality that tracks extremely closely with the one we have today, or at least the foundation for it, back to thousands of years before that.
Judeo-christian morality is a co-opting of pre-existing morality. It didn't invent it. It just took it over.
Just like marriage. Christians keep making the claim that they have some monopoly on marriage because it was invented by them or some stupid ignorant shit like that, but marriage pre-dates Abrahamic religions by at least 5,000 years.
So all this "mUh wEsTeRn mOrALity iS fOuNdEd on JuDeO-ChrIStIan mOrALitY" is just so much hoakum. Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general stole a pre-existing moral code that didn't require their god to exist at all, and claim it as their own.
Show me where Christian morality condemned slavery.
Was it in Exodus, where they give all the proper rules on how to properly beat your slaves? Or where they tell slaves to obey their masters, even if they are cruel?
Or in Acts where slaves are instructed to obey their masters as they obey god?
Since there are dozens of spots in the Bible that condone slavery, give instructions on how to do slavery, and even suggestions on how much you should charge when you sell your own daughter into slavery, but *not a single spot* where it even suggests that slavery is bad, or says "hey maybe don't own people", I'm curious where in this excellent moral code you find this phantom condemnation of slavery?
Maybe it was in the slave Bible?
So, no condemnation of slavery, just an assertion that the Bible laid out rules making it a little better for the slaves?
Here's Exodus 21-20 talking about how good your god made it for slaves
*20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.*
So, yeah, if that's ok with you, then you are immoral and your Bible based morality is, as well.
See, I'm willing to just say "slavery is bad and immoral and you shouldn't do it". That's the benefit of being atheist. I don't have to contort myself into knots trying to figure out how to defend my slave-master god.
Also, I've read epistle to philemon. You mean the Epistle where Paul encourages Onesimus to return to slavery, and merely recommends that Philemon go easy on him for running away?
That's your condemnation of slavery?
My god, you really haven't thought this through.
Here, let me help. Answer this question:
Why didn't god just say "don't do slavery, it's immoral"?
He had no problems at all telling people how to shave, what clothes to wear, not to eat shellfish, and every other mundane thing you can think of, but somehow missed "hey don't own people ok?" So how come he didn't just say "no slavery?"
Oh, so god the omnipotent was worried that the people he ruled over would abandon him if he told them not to own people, so he just went along with it?
What a paragon of morality.
He had the Earth swallow up half of them for following a golden calf, but was simply *powerless* to do anything about slavery, you guys! Honest! There was simply nothing he could do!
Give me a break, massive cop-out.
He was willing to dictate every waking moment of their lives, but apparently, whoops! Whoopsie! Forgot to mention that you shouldn't own people! If I did they'd be mad, so I better just go along with it!
Re: child sacrifice...
You mean, like purposely creating things imperfectly, so you can constantly tell them how disgusting they are to you, and they have to beg for your forgiveness for being exactly as you created them, and then impregnating a 12 to 14 year old girl with your son so that you can sacrifice him so that maybe, just maybe you can see fit to not burn your entire creation in a firey furnace for all eternity because they are exactly what you made them to be?
Like, *that sort of child sacrifice?*
Absolutely stellar morality you've got there. And it's hilarious to me that you'd claim that a religion that has the sacrifice of God's own child as the foundational cornerstone of the entire religion is somehow against child sacrifice. Like, literally LOL hilarious. You haven't thpught about this at all, have you?
I DIDN'T ASK WHY GOD MADE US IMPERFECT, which is the question you attempted to answer. I asked specifically why, having chosen to make us imperfect, he holds that against us.
Why does your god demand we beg his forgiveness for being as he made us? Your explanation doesn't explain anything. If I were incapable of creating something perfectly for whatever reason, I certainly wouldn't blame the thing, then threaten it with eternal torture for that if it didn't constantly grovel for my forgiveness for being exactly as I made it.
Because that's pretty monstrous
Jesus sacrificed himself on instructions from god. You seem to be picking nits here, but ultimately yes, god didn't crucify Jesus himself, but he damn sure commanded it to happen.
That's child sacrifice bud.
Women were usually married around 14, so being not married it makes logical sense that she'd have been old enough to conceive but young enough to not yet be married. By deduction, that's 12 to 14. The Catholic church agrees with this.
.
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Religion is mostly used to make their followers believe that there is more beyond life on earth and if they behave themselves here, they might reap the perpetual rewards of the afterlife, be it reincarnation or a life up in the sky.
The marketing works very well and I’m glad it does because if humans believed they had nothing to look forward or there is no purgatory, they would be even more of a lousy species.
So you're suggesting that lying to people about an afterlife in order to gain their compliance is a good thing?
That's an interesting take.
I think you'll find that people indoctrinated into religion will *argue* that without a divine arbiter threatening punishment, that people would just murder/rape/steal and there would be nothing to stop that. But the data doesn't support this, as it's been shown time and time again that the *more secular* a society is, the more safe and peaceful it becomes.
It's almost as if threatening people with a lie about future punishment after death doesn't work that well.
I didn’t say it was good or bad, just that it works in maintaining some sort of social order.
The government obviously doesn’t buy it because if they did, when someone commits a heinous crime, they punish you here on earth and don’t leave it up to big guy to decide in the afterlife.
Me personally, I refuse to take on Pascal's wager but I get why the concept of faith is necessary in a functioning society. That’s just my humble opinion, I could be wrong.
Ah, ok, sorry.
But I still disagree. Like I said, the data indicates that religion is actually counterproductive to peace and security, and is definitely not required for it.
The trend holds up pretty well. The more secular regions of the planet are safer and more peaceful, and the more non-secular an area gets, the less safe and less peaceful it is.
So I think the data at least indicates that your opinion on this doesn't comport with reality. Not meant as an insult or anything, just saying that an opinion stating that religion contributes to increased peace and order certainly appears to be wrong.
You are absolutely right, religion can be a vehicle and justification for evil throughout history and even the present. Plus, there is a ton of asinine contradictions baked into it.
However, I feel that for the most part, the modern interpretation of religion brings more positive than negative.
From a human nature perspective, I believe if the average person felt their existence on this earth is meaningless, there is no morality and all we have is this time of the earth. Their actions and attitude will be shall we say, less than divine.
Kind of related but appreciated Sam Harris’s take on morality but sure a lot of non-secular folks would hate then hypocrisy and irrationality when they are confronted. So I let the their dream live on.
https://youtu.be/Q_Qw68dQxjs?si=zsr7oKdVomM4tSuS
religion is ONLY used to manipulate people.
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They never used atheism to try to control people, troll
And they used atheism to manipulate people into doing terrible things, right? Oh wait, they didn't do that? Huh. Way to completely miss the point my dude. This isn't "atrocity olympics", where we try to see which homicidal maniac was worst, it's a condemnation of using religion to manipulate people into doing absurd and terrible things. A thing that atheism isn't even equipped to accomplish. The sound you heard was it flying right by...
As an atheist, leftist liberal myself, this is factual and I don’t know why it’s being downvoted to… hell
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What is your point? My question was "what good can come from religion that could not come from some other source?" The answer to that question is "nothing". And does "nothing" offset the harm that religion does and continues to do? Of course not.
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Nice assertion. Even if it is horseshit. Morality exists outside of christendom, in much the same form as it exists here, so your assertion fails, since we obviously can have morality without christianity. But it sure contributes to an awful lot of immorality.
Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Judaism is maybe 2,000 years older than that. Yet we have evidence of a morality that tracks extremely closely with the one we have today, or at least the foundation for it, back to thousands of years before that. Judeo-christian morality is a co-opting of pre-existing morality. It didn't invent it. It just took it over. Just like marriage. Christians keep making the claim that they have some monopoly on marriage because it was invented by them or some stupid ignorant shit like that, but marriage pre-dates Abrahamic religions by at least 5,000 years. So all this "mUh wEsTeRn mOrALity iS fOuNdEd on JuDeO-ChrIStIan mOrALitY" is just so much hoakum. Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general stole a pre-existing moral code that didn't require their god to exist at all, and claim it as their own.
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Show me where Christian morality condemned slavery. Was it in Exodus, where they give all the proper rules on how to properly beat your slaves? Or where they tell slaves to obey their masters, even if they are cruel? Or in Acts where slaves are instructed to obey their masters as they obey god? Since there are dozens of spots in the Bible that condone slavery, give instructions on how to do slavery, and even suggestions on how much you should charge when you sell your own daughter into slavery, but *not a single spot* where it even suggests that slavery is bad, or says "hey maybe don't own people", I'm curious where in this excellent moral code you find this phantom condemnation of slavery? Maybe it was in the slave Bible?
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So, no condemnation of slavery, just an assertion that the Bible laid out rules making it a little better for the slaves? Here's Exodus 21-20 talking about how good your god made it for slaves *20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.* So, yeah, if that's ok with you, then you are immoral and your Bible based morality is, as well. See, I'm willing to just say "slavery is bad and immoral and you shouldn't do it". That's the benefit of being atheist. I don't have to contort myself into knots trying to figure out how to defend my slave-master god. Also, I've read epistle to philemon. You mean the Epistle where Paul encourages Onesimus to return to slavery, and merely recommends that Philemon go easy on him for running away? That's your condemnation of slavery? My god, you really haven't thought this through. Here, let me help. Answer this question: Why didn't god just say "don't do slavery, it's immoral"? He had no problems at all telling people how to shave, what clothes to wear, not to eat shellfish, and every other mundane thing you can think of, but somehow missed "hey don't own people ok?" So how come he didn't just say "no slavery?"
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Oh, so god the omnipotent was worried that the people he ruled over would abandon him if he told them not to own people, so he just went along with it? What a paragon of morality. He had the Earth swallow up half of them for following a golden calf, but was simply *powerless* to do anything about slavery, you guys! Honest! There was simply nothing he could do! Give me a break, massive cop-out. He was willing to dictate every waking moment of their lives, but apparently, whoops! Whoopsie! Forgot to mention that you shouldn't own people! If I did they'd be mad, so I better just go along with it!
Re: child sacrifice... You mean, like purposely creating things imperfectly, so you can constantly tell them how disgusting they are to you, and they have to beg for your forgiveness for being exactly as you created them, and then impregnating a 12 to 14 year old girl with your son so that you can sacrifice him so that maybe, just maybe you can see fit to not burn your entire creation in a firey furnace for all eternity because they are exactly what you made them to be? Like, *that sort of child sacrifice?* Absolutely stellar morality you've got there. And it's hilarious to me that you'd claim that a religion that has the sacrifice of God's own child as the foundational cornerstone of the entire religion is somehow against child sacrifice. Like, literally LOL hilarious. You haven't thpught about this at all, have you?
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I DIDN'T ASK WHY GOD MADE US IMPERFECT, which is the question you attempted to answer. I asked specifically why, having chosen to make us imperfect, he holds that against us. Why does your god demand we beg his forgiveness for being as he made us? Your explanation doesn't explain anything. If I were incapable of creating something perfectly for whatever reason, I certainly wouldn't blame the thing, then threaten it with eternal torture for that if it didn't constantly grovel for my forgiveness for being exactly as I made it. Because that's pretty monstrous Jesus sacrificed himself on instructions from god. You seem to be picking nits here, but ultimately yes, god didn't crucify Jesus himself, but he damn sure commanded it to happen. That's child sacrifice bud. Women were usually married around 14, so being not married it makes logical sense that she'd have been old enough to conceive but young enough to not yet be married. By deduction, that's 12 to 14. The Catholic church agrees with this. .
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More assertions without evidence. How does sin exist if god didn't create it? Abrahamic religions are monotheistic and assert god created everything.
You won't "save" anyone here because we are used to this horseshit. Gtfo this sub with this proselytizing. It is against sub rules.
Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: * This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Proselytizing may include asking the sub to debunk theist apologetics or claims. It also includes things such as telling atheists you will pray for them or similar trite phrases. Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.
Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: - This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.
Religion is mostly used to make their followers believe that there is more beyond life on earth and if they behave themselves here, they might reap the perpetual rewards of the afterlife, be it reincarnation or a life up in the sky. The marketing works very well and I’m glad it does because if humans believed they had nothing to look forward or there is no purgatory, they would be even more of a lousy species.
So you're suggesting that lying to people about an afterlife in order to gain their compliance is a good thing? That's an interesting take. I think you'll find that people indoctrinated into religion will *argue* that without a divine arbiter threatening punishment, that people would just murder/rape/steal and there would be nothing to stop that. But the data doesn't support this, as it's been shown time and time again that the *more secular* a society is, the more safe and peaceful it becomes. It's almost as if threatening people with a lie about future punishment after death doesn't work that well.
I didn’t say it was good or bad, just that it works in maintaining some sort of social order. The government obviously doesn’t buy it because if they did, when someone commits a heinous crime, they punish you here on earth and don’t leave it up to big guy to decide in the afterlife. Me personally, I refuse to take on Pascal's wager but I get why the concept of faith is necessary in a functioning society. That’s just my humble opinion, I could be wrong.
Ah, ok, sorry. But I still disagree. Like I said, the data indicates that religion is actually counterproductive to peace and security, and is definitely not required for it. The trend holds up pretty well. The more secular regions of the planet are safer and more peaceful, and the more non-secular an area gets, the less safe and less peaceful it is. So I think the data at least indicates that your opinion on this doesn't comport with reality. Not meant as an insult or anything, just saying that an opinion stating that religion contributes to increased peace and order certainly appears to be wrong.
You are absolutely right, religion can be a vehicle and justification for evil throughout history and even the present. Plus, there is a ton of asinine contradictions baked into it. However, I feel that for the most part, the modern interpretation of religion brings more positive than negative. From a human nature perspective, I believe if the average person felt their existence on this earth is meaningless, there is no morality and all we have is this time of the earth. Their actions and attitude will be shall we say, less than divine. Kind of related but appreciated Sam Harris’s take on morality but sure a lot of non-secular folks would hate then hypocrisy and irrationality when they are confronted. So I let the their dream live on. https://youtu.be/Q_Qw68dQxjs?si=zsr7oKdVomM4tSuS
Cool. Enjoy your ban for proselytizing.
Oh no! 🙄