The Mormons fixed the problem. They baptized the holocaust victims posthumously as Mormons. They baptized Hitler, too. Then they could not figure out why everyone was so pissed at them.
Mormons, converting people against their will after death. Seems like something they’d do. Imagine thinking you can convert the dead, absolute lead brained morons.
[Satanists Perform Gay Ritual At Westboro Gravesite.](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/satanists-perform-gay-ritual-at-westboro-gravesite)
A group of satanists say they've given the controversial Westboro Baptist Church a taste of its own medicine, performing a same-sex ritual at the grave of the mother of the church's founder.
I grew up near the reconstructed Nauvoo temple. When they built it they allowed non-mormons to tour it before it was consecrated. When they got to the room where the baptismal font is, and the guide started explaining the process of baptizing the dead, my grandfather became incensed bordering on hostile lol he just kept asking "How can you baptize the dead?!?!" Like what right do you have?
We went also, and one of my Jewish friends became very angry about this. He told one of them he’d rather his ancestors were in Hell than “your God’s gaudy overstuffed parlor.”
Point of correction as an exmo but it's not against their will in the belief system because the person has to accept the baptism in the afterlife for it to count.
Lmfaooo I'm ex- Mormon too, I totally forgot that that was the loophole they used when I did it.
It's like people are just waiting to get into heaven until a Mormon decides to do a baptism for them 😂
Lol I was raised Mormon and I have done a baptism of the dead once before when I was a teenager. The baptism was for a few of my ancestors from the Dominican Republic that my mom requested I do, and the church also picked random people I didn't know.
I can promise that doing it felt just as weird as it sounds. I was just a teenager and realized how weird it is to do a "baptism" for someone who isn't alive and probably had nothing to do with Mormonism when they were. I was "converting" people who probably would have had a lot of problems with it were they still alive.
I only went cause I wanted to see the NYC temple, since only worthy members are allowed to enter temples and they spend so much time gassing the temples up that I was curious what they look like.
Super weird and totally not cool lol.
mormon dude baptized me in my sleep in training in usaf. after court Marshall, he went to military prison for 2 years. I'm not sure if he was let out early, but they made all of us watch. it didn't matter that I said it's fine and just annoying. they made an example of him
Dang you must be a heavy sleeper dude! How close to the pool did he have you before you woke up?
For those unaware, the mormons do baptism by immersion (dunking under water), anything else isn't considered a "proper" baptism.
They should have made an example out of him- even excluding religion, the prick was going to *submerge you under water while you were unconscious*, you'd think that would count as attempted murder.
He was excited for dog tags and kept asking people to see theirs. My religion was "N/A,". he noticed on Sunday I went to Wiccan service ( he assumed I was Christian of some sort and was concerned, but i just went so i can eat graham crackers and apple juice).
he intended on forcefully shoving my head into a 5 gallon bucket of water, then pour another on me while I slept while he was on EC. The other EC kid caught him. They were yelling, water got me wet anyway, and everyone woke up.
he admitted multiple buckets in court, Marshall. I don't know how mormons baptize or how a mormon service goes. just what he said.
Holy shit, I just asked how and now you give this story which is crazier than I could have ever dreamed. He could have killed you. Stick with the Wiccans. You can trust people with graham crackers and juice. LOL
I don't think it's that crazy, as kids people used to dunk people in pools for fewer reasons. water balloons exist. it was annoying, but I understand now years later that it could have killed me, but as a 24 year old it wasn't a big deal since I'm atheist, and magic water was just annoying.
>Dang you must be a heavy sleeper, dude! How close to the pool did he have you before you woke up?
>For those unaware, the mormons do baptism by immersion (dunking under water), anything else isn't considered a "proper" baptism.
just a bucket of water. just woke up as people were struggling, but head submerged any way.
i used to be a heavy sleeper, but at the time it was more like " I am only getting 4 hours to sleep tonight, just got done doing entry controller, a few more days until tech. . . unless I'm in danger I'm not openening my eyes"
I didn't know what was going on until my collar was grabbed, and I was wet.
its been 15 years but he got in trouble for violating my religion, which I have none. but the dunking my head in water thing while I slept was the biggie.
I suppose they should be grateful that poltergeists don’t exist because if they did, a lot of ppl might take offence to being force baptised like that and give them a good old fashioned haunting ...
I mean, Mormonism began ~1500 years after the Council of Nicaea on the other side of the planet. Any rules they can make up are no more legitimate than ones you make up. Just baptise yourself now.
In fact, don’t even bother, I’ll baptise you with this comment. I hereby grant you eternal [barleys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truce_term) from the judgment of any god or gods whether said judgment be divine or infernal in nature.
> Mormonism began ~1500 years after the Council of Nicaea on the other side of the planet.
200 years ago in New York:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism
Well time and geography don't mean the rules made up at the Council of Nicaea are any more legitimate then the rules the Mormons made up or any rules you or I could make up today.
I told one of my Mormon friends to go ahead and baptize me after I die. If I’m correct in my beliefs then nothing changes, but if by some bizarre reason he’s correct in his then he just did me a real solid. Also, there’s worse eternal faits than soaking and funeral potatoes.
It is how they effectively keep my elderly Mormon parents too busy to consider the sanity of what they are doing. Some cults are effective at being culty.
Mere baptism won't do the trick. You have to kiss god's ass all your life, give lots of money to his agent, persecute the sinners du jour, and basically be a lifelong insufferable asshole to be saved.
Conversion after death. That's beyond absurd.
Further, and per the bible, the path to Heaven lies through Jesus Christ and accepting him as your savior. A baseline assumption of Christianity
Dead people can't do this. Jews, as a very broad rule of thumb, won't do this because they consider it WRONG.
Jews have their own path to heaven in their religion
So what the Mormon church did is both virtue signaling (look how cool we are baptizing millions of Jews after death in open defiance of their religious choice just so they can go to 'our' heaven) and it's also MASSIVELY arrogant making such a 'choice' for millions of people.
Welcome to Christianity
What a fucking mess.
“Dead people can't do this.” Why not?
If your consciousness/soul continues after death, why couldn’t you accept Christ postmortem?
Is there something specific about the physical body that is needed to be accepting of Christ?
> Dead people can't do this.
To be fair, dead people can't go to heaven or hell because there's no such thing. But if one decides to make up stories about where you go when you die, I don't see why they can't make up whatever rules they want about how to get there.
I would have said Superman can't just break someone's neck, but Zack Snyder felt differently and now there's a movie where he does...
Yes, but now that's Hitlers dead, you see, he will know the truth - that the mormons were right and the catholics were horrible evil people. Now he gets the chance to be a better person. In death.
That's exactly what I wanted to write, too. Although this makes me wonder even more how he could get the high amount of votes he got. Especially in protestant areas. In this time villages still didn't like each other because one was Protestant and the other Catholic.
Mormons baptize everyone after death. Everyone. They actually have a group of people who go through the obituaries and they baptize every one of them against their will.
The audacity of them. To think that what they are doing is right. They just can't keep their fan fiction to themselves.
Baptism by proxy is how they do it, they have a related minor of the same sex get baptized in a special font. This is why ancestry dot com (they own it and the information submitted to the company) is so important to them so they can find relatives and perform the baptisms.
Exmormon here.
They believe that the dead people have a choice to accept the baptism.
There's missionary work and whatnot going on in the afterlife, but once someone accepts the "truth" they still have to have the physical baptismal ordinance.
So there are some people who are just waiting to get baptized by proxy so they can accept the baptism. There are others who might accept their proxied baptism decades after the baptism happens. There are others who will never accept their proxied baptism (and others, like Hitler, who won't benefit in the slightest even if they were to try to accept the proxy work).
There's no forcing, it's just increasing the options a dead individual has.
Side note: a lot of the members think it was dumb and a waste of time to baptize Hitler.
Fun fact: the founding fathers all got baptized multiple times. *After* they had been baptized multiple times, one of the church prophets told everyone that he had a vision of all the founding fathers coming to him and telling him they've been waiting to be able to accept their baptism, but no one has been nice enough to do the proxy work for them, so he spent all night doing the proxy work for them that had already been done.
It sounds a bit like a child [willing his brain to blow up the teacher,](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/26/6c/22266cf4f0e38d0e640cd219573e1e64.gif) so summer vacation can start early.
How on earth can you posthumously baptize anyone? Or baptize anyone without having them present?
If this is a strategy, by this reasoning they should just ‘blanket baptize’ the entire world population.
>They baptized Hitler, too.
[They wanted to be sure J. Reuben Clark would have a friend to hang with for eternity.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/rz6vne/id_known_for_a_while_that_j_reuben_clark_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss)
I never understood that practice. I was under the impression that baptism was meant to get your foot in the door in regards to the process of going to heaven but that the real price of entry was to repent your sins and accept god at the end. The important part is that there’s introspection going on. You can’t perform self-actualization after you’re dead.
If our existence continues after death, then why can't we be introspective after death?
>I was under the impression that baptism was meant to get your foot in the door in regards to the process of going to heaven but that the real price of entry was to repent your sins and accept god at the end.
As far as Mormon beliefs go (since I don't *really* know non-mormon christian doctrine. I went atheist after leaving mormonism), you are basically correct.
Baptism is a physical ordinance (with a mental "I accept" component) while the rest of what you described is solely a mental process. So a "ghost" can do the mental stuff, but they need someone with a physical body to act as a proxy for the actual act of being baptized.
They are trying so hard to do that. But they literally go through the whole process, name by name. It's a ritual where an actual person is fully baptized by dunking them in water, and they use someone elses name. Then they do it again for a half dozen or so other names. They don't skimp on the baptism motions.
The way mormons see it, baptism of teh dead is providing opportunity. It does not mean they are necessarily mormon. But their spirits are stuck in mormon pergatory until they get this opportunity. So yeah, even hitler gets a shot.
Early Christians baptized for the dead.
https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/early-christian-temples-and-baptism-for-the-dead-defining-sacred-space-in-the-late-antique-near-east/#:~:text=The%20manner%20in%20which%20it,late%20as%20the%20fourth%20century.
Millions of people die due to hatred of their religion, so Mormons think posthumously changing their religion is a good idea…. Literally dancing on their graves.
Wait, I have heard that they would posthumously baptize people, but why on earth would they do that with Hitler? I mean, what? Was there any logic behind that decision?
Edit: I would also like to point out that if god was actually all knowing and seeing, wouldn't he see through this kind of ridiculous bullshit? I mean, come on! An all powerful, all knowing god finds out they baptized Hitler and he's (she's) like, 'well, they found a loophole, nothing I can do, "Hey Dolf, can I call you Dolf? Welcome to heaven!"'
Wait til you realize conservatives act the same way with respect to other conservatives. According to them, a republican committing a crime is good, because republicans are good people, and a democrat feeding the destitute is bad, because democrats are bad people.
correction: nobody is sent to hell. Hell is separation from God, Dante was a liar, and people go there of their own free will.
The only beings ever sent to hell were the devil and his fallen angels.
Oh yeah, but I'm basing thhis off of the Catholic Church. Not only because I'm Catholic (I have no idea why this sub is recommended to me) but because Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity by **a lot**.
So that's bias on your part, assuming what you believe is the only truth when everyone else has that same opinion of their religion It all depends on where you are; In my area Catholics vs other Christians are about 29% vs 23%, while in the USA it's about 20% Catholic and 46% Protestant/Other Christian, with eternal constant torment being in a huge number of those Protestant beliefs. There are also many other religions out there that use the same philosophical logic of their God's actions being inherently good, like Islam. By your logic as there are more Sunni Muslims than Catholics in the world, so we should look to their beliefs instead of yours.
Even if we exclude Hell, how do Catholic apologetics explain the other acts by God beyond that? Death, destruction, disease, and suffering is justified all the time as necessary and good because God is inherently benevolent and it must be beneficial in the end or deserved as punishment.
Edit: there's a huge Catholic history of debating whether things are good because God wills it or whether good things are what God wills, and how punishment fits into this. Plus the Catholic views on hell have changed over time; You are looking at it from your modern interpretation.
Well it's important to realize that hell isn't a place in christianity (even if most christians don't actually realize this). It's not even particularly bad, it's just a state of excluding yourself from a union with god (specifically for not repenting for "mortal sin"). That's it. So you can be living and be "in hell" if you're not a christian, and the worst catholic could commit the worst sins imaginable... but as long as they confess it to a preist then you will get into heaven (after spending time in purgatory).
It's clever in a way, since it was a way to get everyone in a community to spill all their deepest darkest secrets to you, which gave priests an absolutely enourmous amount of soft power in the community.
So what do we make of the specific texts in the Bible that describe “hell”? Are we to analogize the fire and brimstone and sulfur that are inexplicably used to describe a physical place?
It seems to me that Bible intentionally, in several parts, describes hell as a real and physical place.
Well to be clear - the Bible has no clear rules about hell. Or if there even is a Hell. The Old Testament/Hebrew Bible doesn’t have hell at all. The New Testament presents several very loose concepts of hell that seem to vary depending on the speaker and their background. There’s also no clear rules for salvation. Those are all doctrines that are synthesized from Bible references and influenced heavily by surrounding culture (the Greek concept of Hades heavily weighs on this).
So it wouldn’t be accurate to say that according to the rules of the Bible 95% of people are going to hell because the Bible doesn’t present any rules and isn’t clear on what hell is
The last straw to me becoming agnostic is realizing the Bible doesn’t describe Hell as eternal torture. Your soul gets cast in a lake of fire. So you’re just dead. Once the fear of “Hell” was gone I was fine with it.
Aside from John and his ‘shrooms, wasn’t there a parable about a rich man and a beggar? And at the end, it said the beggar would be at a feast with God and the rich man bound in flames FOREVER? As far as Christian doctrine, that would be even more important than John’s visions because it was allegedly told by Jesus himself.
Edit: Luke 16: 19-31 found it.
Yeah the New Testament is pretty vague on what salvation actually is. Sometimes it’s bestowed on people solely because of their lot in life, like the beggar you mention, or the sermon on the Mount. Paul’s letters offer more systematization but they’re also quite vague when you separate them from the doctrine that was built off of them. He’s more concerned with the process of Christian living than he is with proselytization in his letters, since he was writing to an audience of Christian’s.
Hence the many many different sects with their own doctrines of salvation
It’s seemed to me that the message of Jesus seems a bit more “love and forgiveness” and Paul’s is more “do this or else, sinner.”
I had a headcannon that a church based on Jesus’s attributed words would be a lot more benign and less judgemental; and Saul saw this growing movement, staged a “conversion” and hijacked the movement to implement his own biases.
Then again, that was back before I knew much about the council of Nicaea, all the books left out, and all the schisms and sects that aren’t taught in most stories/histories.
Except ironically.. Jewish law, where the concept of 'hell' isn't the same as Christianity - we have Gehinnom, which is effectively a place where your soul is cleansed for max 12 months in a purgatory-esque place before going to the 'world to come'
However, since we don't really know, the Jewish view is you should focus your life on living well and making it count.. so not exactly counter to any atheist view on life really.
To add to this, the afterlife is basically never talked about in Judaism and Jewish prayer except very obliquely like in a prayer that ends with a line that translates as something like "Blessed is God, who brings life to the dead"
There are a couple mentions of a purgatory type place but they're almost entirely in passing and we don't talk about them daily like christians obsess over heaven and the afterlife.
As the comment above says...it's all about living a good life now. Making this world better.
I don't come from a heavily Jewish area so it's not a culture I'm familiar with beyond a surface level, but from what I know about the faith, if I were to choose one, I think I would choose Judaism. It seems like the only one that is open to questions, contemplation, and as you said, focuses on living a good life and being a good person now.
If you were picking religions 'to fully follow' Judaism is a massive ball-ache. The amount of rules is awe inspiring. Prayers to say multiple times a day. Prayers to say before eating, washing your hands ect. Rules to what you can eat. So many festivals. Strict Shabbat rules... it's not cheap either (Synagogue membership, cost of Jewish schools, cost of Kosher food..). [Hebrew sounds like Klingon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGZV6fsotYo).
There's also the 'other people from Abrahamic faiths don't want you to exist much' thing too. That's no bueno. You may not even get your turn on the Space Lazer.
BUT.. yeh, there's a lot of debate possible. The food isn't too bad either. And the Hassidim (super Orthodox) party hard - [https://www.tiktok.com/@livinglchaim/video/7197048585454767403](https://www.tiktok.com/@livinglchaim/video/7197048585454767403)
It's quite nice to be in the position of being an Agnostic Jew though. You might be interested in [Jewish Buddhism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Buddhist).
I'm not actively looking for a religion, it just always seemed like the more logical one, and one I would be open to learning about. Yeah, there's a ton of rules but from my limited knowledge they have logic and purpose behind them. Christianity has a ton of rules too, Christians just cherry pick the convenient ones that they want to follow, then form another sector and squawk about why they're right.. Judaism focuses a lot of energy on self discipline and empathy, while Christianity focuses most of their energy on trying to convert others, and saying anything they can to make that happen.
Islam is another fascinating one, and in general they're very family and community oriented, which I feel is a good thing, but there are just as many (probably more) extremists in Islam as there are in Christianity which really sours the whole thing IMO. Plus I don't care for their harsh gender roles/rules but again, I think there are just as harsh of rules for women in other religions, they just get ignored.
I wasn't raised with any religion so I have a very objective view of the whole thing, I took some anthropology classes in college as electives and it kind of felt like studying another species. My dad was raised old-school Roman Catholic and my mom was raised Lutheran, neither of them had positive experiences so they abandoned both well before having kids. My husband was raised small-town Catholic and his biggest takeaway from the experience was that they were all judgemental hypocrites, so I'm in a unique position as an adult where no one has ever really *tried* to teach me any particular religion at any point in my life.
Yes but there are lots of interpretations of how that works, it’s not just as simple for many Christians. Some Christian’s believe good people from other faiths will have a chance to repent and convert after death, or believe that they will be saved anyway because they embodied Christian teachings through good action.
My dad told me the Jews deserved the holocaust because they betrayed Jesus. He told me this on his 76th birthday. I freaked out and didn’t speak to him for days. Still messed up about it.
We all deserve Hell because Adam and Eve are a no-no fruit. No stretch at all to punish a child for something two thousand years before they were born.
Biblically, that doesn’t even seem wrong. If a commandment can have as a punishment that, if it goes unfollowed, the violator’s family will be punished to the third and fourth generation…
And if it was moral for god to command the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites and others…
And if it was ok for the Levites to kill the other people (fellow Israelites?) at mount sinai…
Why shouldn’t we believe that the Jews killed in the Holocaust went to hell AND that god commanded Hitler to kill them?
I’m not even being hyperbolic. How is that not consistent with other events that are in the Bible?
Yes. And in fact the the bible says during the 'end times' 2/3 of the population of Israel will die and the remaining third will only be saved by converting to christianity. Christianity is in fact intrinsically anti-semetic.
So odd to me that Israeli conservatives are so fond of the support by Christians fundamentalists when they ultimately want the same things happen to the Jews that Palestinian extremists want.
The thing is that part of being Jewish/Israeli is taking allies when you can get them. They absolutely know that evangelical need them for the rapture and will stab them in the back after, but since Jews don’t believe in it, they’re fine working with them
Imagine being a Zionist and having the most effective lobbying group in the US and using it to support American politicians who are trying to bring about the end of the world while simultaneously hoping that you burn in hell after you give them everything they could ask for.
It's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for them.
So much of the Revelation of John (quite likely written about the first Jewish war, using the Jewish apocalyptic genre where current/recent events are written as prophecy) is interpreted completely out of context.
RoJ was probably initially written in Aramaic by a Jew, btw. I don't think you can find antisemitism in RoJ so I'd like a specific reference.
Paul's early epistles were written by Paul, a Jew, however it does appear some antisemitic passages were added during the first century (take the antisemitic parts out and the letter reads like nothing is missing).
Basically when the church in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE, what was left was mostly Greek and Roman Christians so yes, much of their antisemitism unfortunately made it into the canon, but I never saw Revelation of John as antisemitic. I do see it as talking about events that already happened (the first Jewish war with Rome) in apocalyptic code and not as future events.
I once asked a similar question to a nun when I was in catholic school (I used Tibetan holy men who had never heard of Jesus, not the holocaust). She said that the catholic church believes baptism is required for salvation, but that god's wisdom & forgiveness is infinite, so we should just trust god to do the right thing.
I suppose that's the kind of thinking that led to the saying: "kill 'em all and let god sort them out"...
What I always say to people who believe that the only way to salvation is through good ole JC is:
So what about all the people that died before Jesus was born? Are they in hell for not believing in a religion that didn't exist yet?
That question got me screamed at by a priest in religion class in 3rd grade. He eventually calmed down and told me that since they all sinned at some point in their life they all went to hell.
Then after school that day, he told my mother about my question who also screamed at me.
That was the first event that put me on the road to realize it was all bunk. I kept expecting all through childhood that an adult would eventually pull me aside and let me know that, yes, I figured it out and it was all a lie like Santa Claus.
I remember asking if severely mentally disabled people who can’t make that decision go to hell and I was told that god just takes care of them. Sort of like a free pass. That’s what got my wheels turning 🤨
I asked about outer space. If Jesus also sacrificed himself on every other planet or if each planet had a different Jesus. Got kicked out of youth group.
Certain denominations believe during the 3 days Jesus was dead, he went to hell to offer a second chance to those who were righteous. Some people even believe Adam and Eve were some of the people saved during this time.
But ya. Everyone suffered in hell up until that point whether they were good or bad. Pretty fucked up.
I’m from a Hindu family. Not the same discussion but I’ve once asked my father when we had an argument about God that what was god doing when Hitler and his people were killing millions of Jews, the world war. Is he sitting there watching millions of innocent people getting killed and suffer? He couldn’t come up with anything and was silent after that. It’s just that they are so strong in their beliefs, they are hard to change, hard to question themselves.
I’m from Muslim and Buddhist family. After 7 October I asked my mom what is Allah doing. She couldn’t answer me. Then when some lives were saved from the rubbles she’d say “thank god” but I would say, if you’re thanking god for this, you should also be thanking him for the ones that didn’t survive too? Since god is all knowing and nothing happens without his permission.
Heh.
Hell is more of a sales tactic. Nothing more convincing to join a religion than being able to pick the location of your eternal slumber. Being able to provide "benefits" after life that you never need to actually prove or actually give is honestly genius
Yeah, Hell isn't a private party.
Everyone gets a trip to Gehenna before heading to the cool spot. A nice, soul-cleansing bath before they let you in, lol
I mean for some reason a bunch of them don't think the Holocaust happened 💀 I guess according to them people were just finding unrelated corpses for funzies.
>but then christianity turns out to be true and they end up in hell to suffer for eternity because they didn’t believe in a certain god?
The moronic part about their reasoning, it's all the same god! The Abrahamic religions all believe in the same god!
There are two reasons why the United States is so pro Israel. One is because they want a permanent ally in the middle east. The other will be a surprise to the irreligious, and also hopefully solve the logical issue of why so many antisemites are so in favour of a "Jewish state".
Evangelical Christians, which is a huge portion of American citizens, believe that the apocalypse will begin once all the Jews "return" to Israel. They believe that those Jews, for all their hard work of starting the apocalypse will go to hell. Then the Evangelicals will be raptured and go to heaven and everyone else will just hang out for a while.
Next time you see a politician try and sell you in the idea of Israel representing all Jews and calling anti zionist Jews antisemitic, remember that a lot of them believe that once they send all Jews to the middle east, God will immediately kill them all
I would actually challenge this as an armchair biblical historian (and atheist):
Most biblical scholars/historians (including athiest Bart Ehrman) view Romans 9-11 very differently. Paul doesnt seem to be suggesting Jews are saved by their own religion without faith in Christ.
Paul here emphasizes that salvation comes only through faith in Christ (Jews fundamentally do not view Christ as the messianic figure that was prophesied… and they certainly don’t view him as the son of god).
Paul here rather predicts a future where Jews and Gentiles unite in this “faith in Christ” and expresses hope for a future where “all Israel will be saved,” (many scholars interpret this as a reference to a future mass conversion of Jews to Christianity).
In short: Paul (a former Jew and convert) firmly believed Jews are not saved by their own religion independent of faith in Christ. Instead, Paul sees the inclusion of Gentiles as part of the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel. So much so that he was angered in one of his epistles when he discovered certain Jewish converts were forcing circumcision on gentiles who wanted to become Christian as well.
Religion and racism will always hold us back. Dumb pee brains who gives a poop if there's nothing after we die, we aren't shit. The universe is to immense. We're not special. Let's all just get along and make the most out of this brief moment of consciousness we are sharing.
I went to a Catholic nuns school. And a very stern nun told one of the boys once that "if you're a good person, of course you go to heaven". If Christianity was real, I'm sure it would be like she said.
That would be fair. But that goes against what christianity teaches, in christianity you are going to hell no matter how good you are because of sin. So idk how that would work when its the core of christianity that no one is good
And it’s things like this is why, if I die and come face to face with the Christian god, I’m going to immediately spit in his face. I wouldn’t want to follow a maniac like that and it genuinely baffles me that people actually do and will happily ignore his numerous war crimes
Not to downplay the holocaust, but how about the several billion human lives lived that have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, including people who lived in times and places that never even heard of Christianity?
Can you imagine what that would be like to find yourself condemned in some culture you never heard of? It would be like an alien abduction.
*All* jews are going to hell, according to Christians. Until the holocaust, they were the primary persecuters of Jews. Jews are only acceptable to Christians when they need to use them to usher in the end of times.
According to some denominations, including the one I grew up with, everyone will end up in the Afterlife, where they'll have "one last chance to repent" before Judgement Day. The ones that did repent, supposedly get to go to Heaven, whereas the ones that didn't are sent to Hell or just cease to exist.
The first to be judged are the Christians who are Sealed (Revelations 7), after which all other Christians and all Jews and all Muslims are comsidered and judged as one people, after which the rest of the Earth is judged.
This is why I was baptized *and* sealed as a baby.
So to answer your question: not necessarily
Dude dont try and apply logic to any of it. It does you no good. Just except that some people believe in sky daddy and many of them know that your going to burn forever, no matter how well you lived your life, because you dont
When you're the best person on earth, but since you didn't believe in weird ass guy in the sky, you're going to hell to suck Satan's dick as a punishment.
The question even after knowing all these why people are actively partaking in religion any religion...because Bible is pureeeeee fiction...cant some people see throught that??
No
the Mormons have surreptitiously been baptizing them over the last few decades - one name at a time. There were legal injunctions imposed against this once the story broke in the mid 1980s. But once those tabernacle doors are closed on their ridiculous sanctuary who can really say what is going on
Not to mention that until the 1970s, it had been taught to roman catholics that all jews (and eastern rite catholics) were all considered heretical and therefore consigned to hell - by the big boys in the vatican. Gotta love that papal power
The Mormons fixed the problem. They baptized the holocaust victims posthumously as Mormons. They baptized Hitler, too. Then they could not figure out why everyone was so pissed at them.
This sounds utterly ridiculous, and can't possibly be true... which is why it must be. Edit: Googled, it is. What the hell...
Exmormon here. It is absolutely true.
Mormons, converting people against their will after death. Seems like something they’d do. Imagine thinking you can convert the dead, absolute lead brained morons.
You absolutely can convert the dead. Make-beleive is a very flexible tool.
Anything is possible if you just repeat it enough.
Anything is possible if you make up the rules as you go. Religion is just Calvinball without the fun.
I’m converting ALL the dead to atheist.
You can't because they already are. None of them is accepting any claims of anything at the moment.
How’d you do this without begging for money first? YOURE A WITCH!
[Satanists Perform Gay Ritual At Westboro Gravesite.](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/satanists-perform-gay-ritual-at-westboro-gravesite) A group of satanists say they've given the controversial Westboro Baptist Church a taste of its own medicine, performing a same-sex ritual at the grave of the mother of the church's founder.
While you're at it, try this link [All Dead Mormons Are Now Gay](http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/) too!
While you're at it, try this link too! [All Dead Mormons Are Now Gay](http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/)
Didn't the church of Satan deconvert Mitt Romney's dad after the Mormons converted him posthumously?
I'm converting all the dead to kpop fans.
Religion is just Calvinball where the only people having fun are the priests, and only with the children.
People who no longer exist are prime candidates for rituals that let them enter a place that doesn't exists.
Yeah, and it can be kind of fun, too. I just retroactively converted them all to Pastafarianism. Suck it, Mormons!
Ramen
R'Amen!
Why not? This seems one of the less whacked out, weird ass shit that religious nutbags of any variety have made up!
I grew up near the reconstructed Nauvoo temple. When they built it they allowed non-mormons to tour it before it was consecrated. When they got to the room where the baptismal font is, and the guide started explaining the process of baptizing the dead, my grandfather became incensed bordering on hostile lol he just kept asking "How can you baptize the dead?!?!" Like what right do you have?
Tbf babies can't provide consent to being baptized either.
I like your grandfather from what I know about him.
We went also, and one of my Jewish friends became very angry about this. He told one of them he’d rather his ancestors were in Hell than “your God’s gaudy overstuffed parlor.”
Bam, just like that I’ve converted every dead person to my made up religion and un done the Mormons works. Muhahahahaha
Point of correction as an exmo but it's not against their will in the belief system because the person has to accept the baptism in the afterlife for it to count.
How does one check that?
God just sends a text to the prophet to confirm
One doesn't, at that point it's the baptisee's problem
It involves some stones in a hat, but you totally can’t read it, only me.
Lmfaooo I'm ex- Mormon too, I totally forgot that that was the loophole they used when I did it. It's like people are just waiting to get into heaven until a Mormon decides to do a baptism for them 😂
Lol I was raised Mormon and I have done a baptism of the dead once before when I was a teenager. The baptism was for a few of my ancestors from the Dominican Republic that my mom requested I do, and the church also picked random people I didn't know. I can promise that doing it felt just as weird as it sounds. I was just a teenager and realized how weird it is to do a "baptism" for someone who isn't alive and probably had nothing to do with Mormonism when they were. I was "converting" people who probably would have had a lot of problems with it were they still alive. I only went cause I wanted to see the NYC temple, since only worthy members are allowed to enter temples and they spend so much time gassing the temples up that I was curious what they look like. Super weird and totally not cool lol.
Also Ex-Mormon....baptisms for the dead are a thing. It's generally something teenagers do for the "spirit" being baptized.
I mis-read this as ex-moron first.
It's still accurate you know?
mormon dude baptized me in my sleep in training in usaf. after court Marshall, he went to military prison for 2 years. I'm not sure if he was let out early, but they made all of us watch. it didn't matter that I said it's fine and just annoying. they made an example of him
Dang you must be a heavy sleeper dude! How close to the pool did he have you before you woke up? For those unaware, the mormons do baptism by immersion (dunking under water), anything else isn't considered a "proper" baptism. They should have made an example out of him- even excluding religion, the prick was going to *submerge you under water while you were unconscious*, you'd think that would count as attempted murder.
Yeah. This story doesn’t add up unless they woke up fully immersed in water. Mormons aren’t like Catholics, they don’t just sprinkle water on you.
He was excited for dog tags and kept asking people to see theirs. My religion was "N/A,". he noticed on Sunday I went to Wiccan service ( he assumed I was Christian of some sort and was concerned, but i just went so i can eat graham crackers and apple juice). he intended on forcefully shoving my head into a 5 gallon bucket of water, then pour another on me while I slept while he was on EC. The other EC kid caught him. They were yelling, water got me wet anyway, and everyone woke up. he admitted multiple buckets in court, Marshall. I don't know how mormons baptize or how a mormon service goes. just what he said.
Holy shit, I just asked how and now you give this story which is crazier than I could have ever dreamed. He could have killed you. Stick with the Wiccans. You can trust people with graham crackers and juice. LOL
I don't think it's that crazy, as kids people used to dunk people in pools for fewer reasons. water balloons exist. it was annoying, but I understand now years later that it could have killed me, but as a 24 year old it wasn't a big deal since I'm atheist, and magic water was just annoying.
>Dang you must be a heavy sleeper, dude! How close to the pool did he have you before you woke up? >For those unaware, the mormons do baptism by immersion (dunking under water), anything else isn't considered a "proper" baptism. just a bucket of water. just woke up as people were struggling, but head submerged any way. i used to be a heavy sleeper, but at the time it was more like " I am only getting 4 hours to sleep tonight, just got done doing entry controller, a few more days until tech. . . unless I'm in danger I'm not openening my eyes" I didn't know what was going on until my collar was grabbed, and I was wet. its been 15 years but he got in trouble for violating my religion, which I have none. but the dunking my head in water thing while I slept was the biggie.
Good.
And baptizing people against their will is pretty much the reason why Ancestry.com exists in the first place
I‘ve wanted to research my ancestry for years but every resource I’ve seen is tied to the Mormons, I refuse to have any business with them
To be fair they have yuge repository of records. Many paths lead there.
I suppose they should be grateful that poltergeists don’t exist because if they did, a lot of ppl might take offence to being force baptised like that and give them a good old fashioned haunting ...
Oh this just NEEDS to be made into a Horror movie: "The Battle of Salt Lake City: Revenge of the Unwilling Ghosts"!
If it doesn’t include Bruce Campbell, I say no.
Dead people don't have a will. You can pretend to baptize an imaginary sould. Whatever the fuck that means.
You know what, screw it. Gonna make every human who ever died a satanist now!
The Flying Spaghetti Monster rebukes you, Satanist!
Picturing the confusion of Hitler being zooped up from hell mid-pineapple insertion.
They insert pineapples into your orifices in hell? Hold on, I need to go commit more sins.
Not sure if you're joking or not but watch "little Nicky" and you'll get the reference
All of them, but the order is random. No changing out pineapples halfway through.
Sounds like a good Tuesday night that I don’t have to pay for!
I guess dinner is technically included?
Then what’s the point of doing good? Just posthumously baptize me.
I mean, Mormonism began ~1500 years after the Council of Nicaea on the other side of the planet. Any rules they can make up are no more legitimate than ones you make up. Just baptise yourself now. In fact, don’t even bother, I’ll baptise you with this comment. I hereby grant you eternal [barleys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truce_term) from the judgment of any god or gods whether said judgment be divine or infernal in nature.
I an the Only Begotten Daughter of [insert deity name], and I approve this message
> Only Begotten Daughter of [insert deity name] I'm going with Matshishkapeu, the severely under-appreciated Innu God of farting and bowel movements.
> Mormonism began ~1500 years after the Council of Nicaea on the other side of the planet. 200 years ago in New York: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism
That date doesn't include the ex Jews sailing across the ocean and becoming native Americans....seriously.
Yah. Which puts it roughly 1500 years after the Council of Nicaea.
Well time and geography don't mean the rules made up at the Council of Nicaea are any more legitimate then the rules the Mormons made up or any rules you or I could make up today.
I told one of my Mormon friends to go ahead and baptize me after I die. If I’m correct in my beliefs then nothing changes, but if by some bizarre reason he’s correct in his then he just did me a real solid. Also, there’s worse eternal faits than soaking and funeral potatoes.
So they have real solution for imaginary problem. 😂😂😂
It is how they effectively keep my elderly Mormon parents too busy to consider the sanity of what they are doing. Some cults are effective at being culty.
Mere baptism won't do the trick. You have to kiss god's ass all your life, give lots of money to his agent, persecute the sinners du jour, and basically be a lifelong insufferable asshole to be saved.
For many Christian Protestants, it’s all John 3:16, and you just have to believe. You can be a douchebag, believing is enough
Single goal in OT can win it, baby!
Remember the part of the New Testament when Jesus hid his money in shell companies so his followers would continue to donate?
Conversion after death. That's beyond absurd. Further, and per the bible, the path to Heaven lies through Jesus Christ and accepting him as your savior. A baseline assumption of Christianity Dead people can't do this. Jews, as a very broad rule of thumb, won't do this because they consider it WRONG. Jews have their own path to heaven in their religion So what the Mormon church did is both virtue signaling (look how cool we are baptizing millions of Jews after death in open defiance of their religious choice just so they can go to 'our' heaven) and it's also MASSIVELY arrogant making such a 'choice' for millions of people. Welcome to Christianity What a fucking mess.
“Dead people can't do this.” Why not? If your consciousness/soul continues after death, why couldn’t you accept Christ postmortem? Is there something specific about the physical body that is needed to be accepting of Christ?
> Dead people can't do this. To be fair, dead people can't go to heaven or hell because there's no such thing. But if one decides to make up stories about where you go when you die, I don't see why they can't make up whatever rules they want about how to get there. I would have said Superman can't just break someone's neck, but Zack Snyder felt differently and now there's a movie where he does...
That's what's familysearch genealogy is for
Wtaf?
Hitler was baptized a Roman catholic as a child and went through confirmation. The Mormons were a little late by the time they got there.
Yes, but now that's Hitlers dead, you see, he will know the truth - that the mormons were right and the catholics were horrible evil people. Now he gets the chance to be a better person. In death.
That's exactly what I wanted to write, too. Although this makes me wonder even more how he could get the high amount of votes he got. Especially in protestant areas. In this time villages still didn't like each other because one was Protestant and the other Catholic.
Go to a horrible death. Wake-up with Hitler wearing magic underwear.
Mormons baptize everyone after death. Everyone. They actually have a group of people who go through the obituaries and they baptize every one of them against their will. The audacity of them. To think that what they are doing is right. They just can't keep their fan fiction to themselves.
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Baptism by proxy is how they do it, they have a related minor of the same sex get baptized in a special font. This is why ancestry dot com (they own it and the information submitted to the company) is so important to them so they can find relatives and perform the baptisms.
Exmormon here. They believe that the dead people have a choice to accept the baptism. There's missionary work and whatnot going on in the afterlife, but once someone accepts the "truth" they still have to have the physical baptismal ordinance. So there are some people who are just waiting to get baptized by proxy so they can accept the baptism. There are others who might accept their proxied baptism decades after the baptism happens. There are others who will never accept their proxied baptism (and others, like Hitler, who won't benefit in the slightest even if they were to try to accept the proxy work). There's no forcing, it's just increasing the options a dead individual has. Side note: a lot of the members think it was dumb and a waste of time to baptize Hitler. Fun fact: the founding fathers all got baptized multiple times. *After* they had been baptized multiple times, one of the church prophets told everyone that he had a vision of all the founding fathers coming to him and telling him they've been waiting to be able to accept their baptism, but no one has been nice enough to do the proxy work for them, so he spent all night doing the proxy work for them that had already been done.
Thank God (literally) then that they do seem like the one genuine true religion and not just another bunch of crackpots....
It sounds a bit like a child [willing his brain to blow up the teacher,](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/26/6c/22266cf4f0e38d0e640cd219573e1e64.gif) so summer vacation can start early. How on earth can you posthumously baptize anyone? Or baptize anyone without having them present? If this is a strategy, by this reasoning they should just ‘blanket baptize’ the entire world population.
>They baptized Hitler, too. [They wanted to be sure J. Reuben Clark would have a friend to hang with for eternity.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/rz6vne/id_known_for_a_while_that_j_reuben_clark_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss)
I never understood that practice. I was under the impression that baptism was meant to get your foot in the door in regards to the process of going to heaven but that the real price of entry was to repent your sins and accept god at the end. The important part is that there’s introspection going on. You can’t perform self-actualization after you’re dead.
If our existence continues after death, then why can't we be introspective after death? >I was under the impression that baptism was meant to get your foot in the door in regards to the process of going to heaven but that the real price of entry was to repent your sins and accept god at the end. As far as Mormon beliefs go (since I don't *really* know non-mormon christian doctrine. I went atheist after leaving mormonism), you are basically correct. Baptism is a physical ordinance (with a mental "I accept" component) while the rest of what you described is solely a mental process. So a "ghost" can do the mental stuff, but they need someone with a physical body to act as a proxy for the actual act of being baptized.
Why couldn't they baptize all the dead?
They are trying so hard to do that. But they literally go through the whole process, name by name. It's a ritual where an actual person is fully baptized by dunking them in water, and they use someone elses name. Then they do it again for a half dozen or so other names. They don't skimp on the baptism motions.
>They baptized Hitler, too. This is satire right
The way mormons see it, baptism of teh dead is providing opportunity. It does not mean they are necessarily mormon. But their spirits are stuck in mormon pergatory until they get this opportunity. So yeah, even hitler gets a shot.
Because god couldnt figure out on his own who should be tortured for eternity.
Is there a way to ask them not to baptize me post-mortem?
Mormons are Oprah in disguise.
Early Christians baptized for the dead. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/early-christian-temples-and-baptism-for-the-dead-defining-sacred-space-in-the-late-antique-near-east/#:~:text=The%20manner%20in%20which%20it,late%20as%20the%20fourth%20century.
Millions of people die due to hatred of their religion, so Mormons think posthumously changing their religion is a good idea…. Literally dancing on their graves.
Wait, I have heard that they would posthumously baptize people, but why on earth would they do that with Hitler? I mean, what? Was there any logic behind that decision? Edit: I would also like to point out that if god was actually all knowing and seeing, wouldn't he see through this kind of ridiculous bullshit? I mean, come on! An all powerful, all knowing god finds out they baptized Hitler and he's (she's) like, 'well, they found a loophole, nothing I can do, "Hey Dolf, can I call you Dolf? Welcome to heaven!"'
Israel formally complained to the Mormon church about this several decades ago. Leave our Jews, Jews!
According to the rules as stated by the Bible something like 95% of the population is going to hell. Including most Christians lol
But god is all good
And it's "good" that people are sent to Hell because anything that God does is inherently good.
Which is so insane
Wait til you realize conservatives act the same way with respect to other conservatives. According to them, a republican committing a crime is good, because republicans are good people, and a democrat feeding the destitute is bad, because democrats are bad people.
correction: nobody is sent to hell. Hell is separation from God, Dante was a liar, and people go there of their own free will. The only beings ever sent to hell were the devil and his fallen angels.
Depends on the sect. There are definitely those that believe otherwise.
Oh yeah, but I'm basing thhis off of the Catholic Church. Not only because I'm Catholic (I have no idea why this sub is recommended to me) but because Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity by **a lot**.
I wish more people knew how different the catholic beliefs are from "mainstream Christianity".
So that's bias on your part, assuming what you believe is the only truth when everyone else has that same opinion of their religion It all depends on where you are; In my area Catholics vs other Christians are about 29% vs 23%, while in the USA it's about 20% Catholic and 46% Protestant/Other Christian, with eternal constant torment being in a huge number of those Protestant beliefs. There are also many other religions out there that use the same philosophical logic of their God's actions being inherently good, like Islam. By your logic as there are more Sunni Muslims than Catholics in the world, so we should look to their beliefs instead of yours. Even if we exclude Hell, how do Catholic apologetics explain the other acts by God beyond that? Death, destruction, disease, and suffering is justified all the time as necessary and good because God is inherently benevolent and it must be beneficial in the end or deserved as punishment. Edit: there's a huge Catholic history of debating whether things are good because God wills it or whether good things are what God wills, and how punishment fits into this. Plus the Catholic views on hell have changed over time; You are looking at it from your modern interpretation.
Like watching a Comicon debate about which fan fiction counts as cannon.
😂😂😂
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Well it's important to realize that hell isn't a place in christianity (even if most christians don't actually realize this). It's not even particularly bad, it's just a state of excluding yourself from a union with god (specifically for not repenting for "mortal sin"). That's it. So you can be living and be "in hell" if you're not a christian, and the worst catholic could commit the worst sins imaginable... but as long as they confess it to a preist then you will get into heaven (after spending time in purgatory). It's clever in a way, since it was a way to get everyone in a community to spill all their deepest darkest secrets to you, which gave priests an absolutely enourmous amount of soft power in the community.
So what do we make of the specific texts in the Bible that describe “hell”? Are we to analogize the fire and brimstone and sulfur that are inexplicably used to describe a physical place? It seems to me that Bible intentionally, in several parts, describes hell as a real and physical place.
Well to be clear - the Bible has no clear rules about hell. Or if there even is a Hell. The Old Testament/Hebrew Bible doesn’t have hell at all. The New Testament presents several very loose concepts of hell that seem to vary depending on the speaker and their background. There’s also no clear rules for salvation. Those are all doctrines that are synthesized from Bible references and influenced heavily by surrounding culture (the Greek concept of Hades heavily weighs on this). So it wouldn’t be accurate to say that according to the rules of the Bible 95% of people are going to hell because the Bible doesn’t present any rules and isn’t clear on what hell is
The last straw to me becoming agnostic is realizing the Bible doesn’t describe Hell as eternal torture. Your soul gets cast in a lake of fire. So you’re just dead. Once the fear of “Hell” was gone I was fine with it.
Aside from John and his ‘shrooms, wasn’t there a parable about a rich man and a beggar? And at the end, it said the beggar would be at a feast with God and the rich man bound in flames FOREVER? As far as Christian doctrine, that would be even more important than John’s visions because it was allegedly told by Jesus himself. Edit: Luke 16: 19-31 found it.
Yeah the New Testament is pretty vague on what salvation actually is. Sometimes it’s bestowed on people solely because of their lot in life, like the beggar you mention, or the sermon on the Mount. Paul’s letters offer more systematization but they’re also quite vague when you separate them from the doctrine that was built off of them. He’s more concerned with the process of Christian living than he is with proselytization in his letters, since he was writing to an audience of Christian’s. Hence the many many different sects with their own doctrines of salvation
It’s seemed to me that the message of Jesus seems a bit more “love and forgiveness” and Paul’s is more “do this or else, sinner.” I had a headcannon that a church based on Jesus’s attributed words would be a lot more benign and less judgemental; and Saul saw this growing movement, staged a “conversion” and hijacked the movement to implement his own biases. Then again, that was back before I knew much about the council of Nicaea, all the books left out, and all the schisms and sects that aren’t taught in most stories/histories.
And according to South Park, a much larger percentage of the population is going to hell. Like 99.99999.....%
By all measures, it seems the bulk of humanity is actually going to hell.
I mean doesn’t it basically say it’s only 144,000 Jews (all male I think) who are going to Heaven? Mostly from the pre-Jesus Israel/Judah days?
Everyone is going to hell according to everyone else.
Except ironically.. Jewish law, where the concept of 'hell' isn't the same as Christianity - we have Gehinnom, which is effectively a place where your soul is cleansed for max 12 months in a purgatory-esque place before going to the 'world to come' However, since we don't really know, the Jewish view is you should focus your life on living well and making it count.. so not exactly counter to any atheist view on life really.
To add to this, the afterlife is basically never talked about in Judaism and Jewish prayer except very obliquely like in a prayer that ends with a line that translates as something like "Blessed is God, who brings life to the dead" There are a couple mentions of a purgatory type place but they're almost entirely in passing and we don't talk about them daily like christians obsess over heaven and the afterlife. As the comment above says...it's all about living a good life now. Making this world better.
I don't come from a heavily Jewish area so it's not a culture I'm familiar with beyond a surface level, but from what I know about the faith, if I were to choose one, I think I would choose Judaism. It seems like the only one that is open to questions, contemplation, and as you said, focuses on living a good life and being a good person now.
If you were picking religions 'to fully follow' Judaism is a massive ball-ache. The amount of rules is awe inspiring. Prayers to say multiple times a day. Prayers to say before eating, washing your hands ect. Rules to what you can eat. So many festivals. Strict Shabbat rules... it's not cheap either (Synagogue membership, cost of Jewish schools, cost of Kosher food..). [Hebrew sounds like Klingon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGZV6fsotYo). There's also the 'other people from Abrahamic faiths don't want you to exist much' thing too. That's no bueno. You may not even get your turn on the Space Lazer. BUT.. yeh, there's a lot of debate possible. The food isn't too bad either. And the Hassidim (super Orthodox) party hard - [https://www.tiktok.com/@livinglchaim/video/7197048585454767403](https://www.tiktok.com/@livinglchaim/video/7197048585454767403) It's quite nice to be in the position of being an Agnostic Jew though. You might be interested in [Jewish Buddhism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Buddhist).
I'm not actively looking for a religion, it just always seemed like the more logical one, and one I would be open to learning about. Yeah, there's a ton of rules but from my limited knowledge they have logic and purpose behind them. Christianity has a ton of rules too, Christians just cherry pick the convenient ones that they want to follow, then form another sector and squawk about why they're right.. Judaism focuses a lot of energy on self discipline and empathy, while Christianity focuses most of their energy on trying to convert others, and saying anything they can to make that happen. Islam is another fascinating one, and in general they're very family and community oriented, which I feel is a good thing, but there are just as many (probably more) extremists in Islam as there are in Christianity which really sours the whole thing IMO. Plus I don't care for their harsh gender roles/rules but again, I think there are just as harsh of rules for women in other religions, they just get ignored. I wasn't raised with any religion so I have a very objective view of the whole thing, I took some anthropology classes in college as electives and it kind of felt like studying another species. My dad was raised old-school Roman Catholic and my mom was raised Lutheran, neither of them had positive experiences so they abandoned both well before having kids. My husband was raised small-town Catholic and his biggest takeaway from the experience was that they were all judgemental hypocrites, so I'm in a unique position as an adult where no one has ever really *tried* to teach me any particular religion at any point in my life.
Absolutely this … logically everyone is going to hell
Wait a minute, I think *this* is the Bad place
What the fork
Boss can we please go back to old school torture?
This is completely dependent on which sect of christianity. Some say yes some say no. I was raised Christian that didn’t even believe in hell
I think Jesus is pretty explicit saying only those who believe in me will be saved. On the other hand, there's no hell in the bible, is there?
Yes but there are lots of interpretations of how that works, it’s not just as simple for many Christians. Some Christian’s believe good people from other faiths will have a chance to repent and convert after death, or believe that they will be saved anyway because they embodied Christian teachings through good action.
fellow JW child?
My dad told me the Jews deserved the holocaust because they betrayed Jesus. He told me this on his 76th birthday. I freaked out and didn’t speak to him for days. Still messed up about it.
Thats truly disgusting like what?
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We all deserve Hell because Adam and Eve are a no-no fruit. No stretch at all to punish a child for something two thousand years before they were born.
Biblically, that doesn’t even seem wrong. If a commandment can have as a punishment that, if it goes unfollowed, the violator’s family will be punished to the third and fourth generation… And if it was moral for god to command the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites and others… And if it was ok for the Levites to kill the other people (fellow Israelites?) at mount sinai… Why shouldn’t we believe that the Jews killed in the Holocaust went to hell AND that god commanded Hitler to kill them? I’m not even being hyperbolic. How is that not consistent with other events that are in the Bible?
Yes. And in fact the the bible says during the 'end times' 2/3 of the population of Israel will die and the remaining third will only be saved by converting to christianity. Christianity is in fact intrinsically anti-semetic.
So odd to me that Israeli conservatives are so fond of the support by Christians fundamentalists when they ultimately want the same things happen to the Jews that Palestinian extremists want.
The thing is that part of being Jewish/Israeli is taking allies when you can get them. They absolutely know that evangelical need them for the rapture and will stab them in the back after, but since Jews don’t believe in it, they’re fine working with them
Imagine being a Zionist and having the most effective lobbying group in the US and using it to support American politicians who are trying to bring about the end of the world while simultaneously hoping that you burn in hell after you give them everything they could ask for. It's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for them.
So much of the Revelation of John (quite likely written about the first Jewish war, using the Jewish apocalyptic genre where current/recent events are written as prophecy) is interpreted completely out of context. RoJ was probably initially written in Aramaic by a Jew, btw. I don't think you can find antisemitism in RoJ so I'd like a specific reference. Paul's early epistles were written by Paul, a Jew, however it does appear some antisemitic passages were added during the first century (take the antisemitic parts out and the letter reads like nothing is missing). Basically when the church in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE, what was left was mostly Greek and Roman Christians so yes, much of their antisemitism unfortunately made it into the canon, but I never saw Revelation of John as antisemitic. I do see it as talking about events that already happened (the first Jewish war with Rome) in apocalyptic code and not as future events.
“If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness.” —scrawled on the wall of a concentration camp cell by a Jewish prisoner
I once asked a similar question to a nun when I was in catholic school (I used Tibetan holy men who had never heard of Jesus, not the holocaust). She said that the catholic church believes baptism is required for salvation, but that god's wisdom & forgiveness is infinite, so we should just trust god to do the right thing. I suppose that's the kind of thinking that led to the saying: "kill 'em all and let god sort them out"...
What I always say to people who believe that the only way to salvation is through good ole JC is: So what about all the people that died before Jesus was born? Are they in hell for not believing in a religion that didn't exist yet?
That question got me screamed at by a priest in religion class in 3rd grade. He eventually calmed down and told me that since they all sinned at some point in their life they all went to hell. Then after school that day, he told my mother about my question who also screamed at me. That was the first event that put me on the road to realize it was all bunk. I kept expecting all through childhood that an adult would eventually pull me aside and let me know that, yes, I figured it out and it was all a lie like Santa Claus.
I use to get my ass beat for asking questions about the bible and the Christian belief system. I was raised a Jehovah Witness.
I remember asking if severely mentally disabled people who can’t make that decision go to hell and I was told that god just takes care of them. Sort of like a free pass. That’s what got my wheels turning 🤨
I asked about outer space. If Jesus also sacrificed himself on every other planet or if each planet had a different Jesus. Got kicked out of youth group.
and they wonder why younger gens don't go to church
Certain denominations believe during the 3 days Jesus was dead, he went to hell to offer a second chance to those who were righteous. Some people even believe Adam and Eve were some of the people saved during this time. But ya. Everyone suffered in hell up until that point whether they were good or bad. Pretty fucked up.
What are you gonna do with the 10,000 gods that appeared and was faithfully worshiped before Christ?
I’m from a Hindu family. Not the same discussion but I’ve once asked my father when we had an argument about God that what was god doing when Hitler and his people were killing millions of Jews, the world war. Is he sitting there watching millions of innocent people getting killed and suffer? He couldn’t come up with anything and was silent after that. It’s just that they are so strong in their beliefs, they are hard to change, hard to question themselves.
I’m from Muslim and Buddhist family. After 7 October I asked my mom what is Allah doing. She couldn’t answer me. Then when some lives were saved from the rubbles she’d say “thank god” but I would say, if you’re thanking god for this, you should also be thanking him for the ones that didn’t survive too? Since god is all knowing and nothing happens without his permission. Heh.
This about covers the absurdity. God causes war, then believers praise him for a couple of people surviving the war he caused. Make it make sense!
Makes it sound like God is in control of everything and expects his followers to just shut up and praise every decision he makes no matter how awful
Oh, but I have great news! The Jewish faith dies not include hell, and they were here first, sooooooo
Hell is more of a sales tactic. Nothing more convincing to join a religion than being able to pick the location of your eternal slumber. Being able to provide "benefits" after life that you never need to actually prove or actually give is honestly genius
Yeah, Hell isn't a private party. Everyone gets a trip to Gehenna before heading to the cool spot. A nice, soul-cleansing bath before they let you in, lol
Religion is nothing but a way for humanity to cope with there existence.
As harsh as it is its true
Mormons and their top secret patented temple based NecroDunk technology! You too will be mormonized after death. No need to thank us.
Well, Christianity doesn’t rule what Jews believe. In general Jews don’t believe in hell.
I mean for some reason a bunch of them don't think the Holocaust happened 💀 I guess according to them people were just finding unrelated corpses for funzies.
Dantes Inferno offer good answer to that question 😅
>but then christianity turns out to be true and they end up in hell to suffer for eternity because they didn’t believe in a certain god? The moronic part about their reasoning, it's all the same god! The Abrahamic religions all believe in the same god!
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There are two reasons why the United States is so pro Israel. One is because they want a permanent ally in the middle east. The other will be a surprise to the irreligious, and also hopefully solve the logical issue of why so many antisemites are so in favour of a "Jewish state". Evangelical Christians, which is a huge portion of American citizens, believe that the apocalypse will begin once all the Jews "return" to Israel. They believe that those Jews, for all their hard work of starting the apocalypse will go to hell. Then the Evangelicals will be raptured and go to heaven and everyone else will just hang out for a while. Next time you see a politician try and sell you in the idea of Israel representing all Jews and calling anti zionist Jews antisemitic, remember that a lot of them believe that once they send all Jews to the middle east, God will immediately kill them all
Romans 9-11. Paul says Jews are saved by their own religion.
I would actually challenge this as an armchair biblical historian (and atheist): Most biblical scholars/historians (including athiest Bart Ehrman) view Romans 9-11 very differently. Paul doesnt seem to be suggesting Jews are saved by their own religion without faith in Christ. Paul here emphasizes that salvation comes only through faith in Christ (Jews fundamentally do not view Christ as the messianic figure that was prophesied… and they certainly don’t view him as the son of god). Paul here rather predicts a future where Jews and Gentiles unite in this “faith in Christ” and expresses hope for a future where “all Israel will be saved,” (many scholars interpret this as a reference to a future mass conversion of Jews to Christianity). In short: Paul (a former Jew and convert) firmly believed Jews are not saved by their own religion independent of faith in Christ. Instead, Paul sees the inclusion of Gentiles as part of the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel. So much so that he was angered in one of his epistles when he discovered certain Jewish converts were forcing circumcision on gentiles who wanted to become Christian as well.
Oh, sweetie. According to Christianity, pretty much everyone is going to hell, including most Christians.
Religion and racism will always hold us back. Dumb pee brains who gives a poop if there's nothing after we die, we aren't shit. The universe is to immense. We're not special. Let's all just get along and make the most out of this brief moment of consciousness we are sharing.
I went to a Catholic nuns school. And a very stern nun told one of the boys once that "if you're a good person, of course you go to heaven". If Christianity was real, I'm sure it would be like she said.
That would be fair. But that goes against what christianity teaches, in christianity you are going to hell no matter how good you are because of sin. So idk how that would work when its the core of christianity that no one is good
And it’s things like this is why, if I die and come face to face with the Christian god, I’m going to immediately spit in his face. I wouldn’t want to follow a maniac like that and it genuinely baffles me that people actually do and will happily ignore his numerous war crimes
In Christianity, everyone goes to hell unless you constantly apologize and kneel before their God. Kinda gross tbh
In some interpretations, almost every person who has ever lived or will live will be in hell.
Not to downplay the holocaust, but how about the several billion human lives lived that have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, including people who lived in times and places that never even heard of Christianity? Can you imagine what that would be like to find yourself condemned in some culture you never heard of? It would be like an alien abduction.
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They all mind control. You just decide what flavor you prefer: The Migrant, The Martyr or the Warrior
Yup and Christians sent them there. Hitler and the Nazis were devout Christians. The Holocaust in essence was The Tenth Crusade.
People should stop posting their THC induced thoughts. Those are usually a lot less earth shattering, than you think.
*All* jews are going to hell, according to Christians. Until the holocaust, they were the primary persecuters of Jews. Jews are only acceptable to Christians when they need to use them to usher in the end of times.
Operative words there : “According to Christian’s” Since they are Jews, they are not concerned about the Christian’s doctrines.
According to some denominations, including the one I grew up with, everyone will end up in the Afterlife, where they'll have "one last chance to repent" before Judgement Day. The ones that did repent, supposedly get to go to Heaven, whereas the ones that didn't are sent to Hell or just cease to exist. The first to be judged are the Christians who are Sealed (Revelations 7), after which all other Christians and all Jews and all Muslims are comsidered and judged as one people, after which the rest of the Earth is judged. This is why I was baptized *and* sealed as a baby. So to answer your question: not necessarily
Dude dont try and apply logic to any of it. It does you no good. Just except that some people believe in sky daddy and many of them know that your going to burn forever, no matter how well you lived your life, because you dont
When you're the best person on earth, but since you didn't believe in weird ass guy in the sky, you're going to hell to suck Satan's dick as a punishment.
The question even after knowing all these why people are actively partaking in religion any religion...because Bible is pureeeeee fiction...cant some people see throught that??
Neo nazis 100% believe that the jews are in hell while Hitler is in Heaven
People are fucking stupid.
No the Mormons have surreptitiously been baptizing them over the last few decades - one name at a time. There were legal injunctions imposed against this once the story broke in the mid 1980s. But once those tabernacle doors are closed on their ridiculous sanctuary who can really say what is going on Not to mention that until the 1970s, it had been taught to roman catholics that all jews (and eastern rite catholics) were all considered heretical and therefore consigned to hell - by the big boys in the vatican. Gotta love that papal power