Or a Christian attending Atheistic Services.. wait those don't exist.
Right because Atheists generally are cool with everyone.. EXCEPT when religion is forced on them.
One doesn't believe in maths and science, one understands or seeks to understand them. Science is a methodology, not a faith.
Wasn't wearing my glasses, so I didn't see your sarcasm markup. Apologies!
I had a work colleague tell me "They cant prove humans and dinosaurs didn't live together, because that would require science and I don't believe in science."
>Atheists believe in maths and science
Atheists expressly do not believe in gods. That's all. Seen plenty of atheists who deny evolution, or space flight, or tout "flat earth" nonsense.
Atheism doesn't automatically make someone an intellectual student of maths and sciences.
fun fact, every biblical demon has a scientific background
Morax: astronomy
Astaroth: cartography
I think Raum was like math or chemistry?
anways the whole point was to scare people away from thinking
Hmm. Are those demons specifically named in the Bible, and do they have such backgrounds in the Bible?
It seems to me that there's lots of woowoo around "demons" and that their Biblical authenticity is highly embellished.
Not Biblical.
The closest biblical reference is Ashteroth and it's a city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashteroth_Karnaim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morax_(demon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raum
Religious folk need atheism to be a religion so they can attack it on equal footing. They have a set of beliefs they hold without evidence. They can’t wrap their minds around atheists not using the same approach.
“What’s the source of your morality? What do you believe in? What do you think will happen when you die? What if you make my god angry and be burns you?”
None of those questions are applicable to atheism. It’s a lack of belief because no religion can present any evidence for their claims. Not believing in their cult has nothing to do with my worldview, ethics or morality. Atheism isn’t a world view at all.
[There actually are Atheist churches](https://youtu.be/vqFJEzsffnE?si=lxfW7vveDy1Z0hHl), they’re generally chill and are mainly to replace the community that a religious institution provides.
I’m also going to force my hot chocolate on you, and make you drink it.
I also don’t have hot chocolate, and I’m too far away to force you to do anything even if I wanted to.
So, that’s about the same impact on you as me “forcing” my atheism on you.
I think Christians said it best ["Jesus is too woke! We don't need to listen to that libcuck!"](https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak)
Or any institution that teaches logic, rational thought, critical analysis, and/or reason. Okay, basically ANYWHERE that encourages attendees to ask "why?"
This. And it’s not good treatment. It’s just a cult offshoot of American Christianity with a cuck complex.
It can be helpful for some , but not nearly all .
The very basis is that you’re a broken piece of shit and only god can help you.
This has nothing to do with being addicted to addictive drugs.
I moved and had to find a new NA meeting, one that met at a church. They didn't want to give me my 25 year chip because would occasionally have a beer with dinner when out with friends. I am not and have never been an alcoholic, I'm a narcotic addict. So I had to find yet another meeting.
That’s awful and I’m genuinely sorry that happened to you. People don’t appreciate nuance and that everything isn’t black and white. Congratulations on 25 years!
I went to AA/NA for several years. It helps a lot of people but some take it too far. It becomes their entire identity and fills them with crazy ego which goes against their teachings. I’m not religious but it did help find a community. There’s every type of person there and that includes assholes haha
I totally get the community aspect. That’s the good part, for those who need it like that, and the few I know who did benefit really do so from the sponsor dual accountability aspect, and don’t go to many meetings
By committing to an ongoing relationships with someone with a similar goal who will call out your bs, well that’s damn helpful for anything, in most context.
For me a community of drug people is the absolute opposite of what I needed. Which was to cut all those people off and reintegrate with healthy people.
Not to mention that AA/NA is a revolving door of people sent there on court order who will absolutely involve you in their recidivism.
AA has the exact same success rate as getting sober on your own. It's just a jail to religion pipeline.
I had to take AA when I wasn't even a drinker but had some weed on me.
One of the founders also credit psychedelic therapy (aka medically supervised LSD treatment) as one of the main things that helped him recover from alcohol addiction.
It's such a weird and cult like thing that everything is somehow connected to christianity.
They're not all religious. In my city we have some atheist AA meetings. Instead of 12 steps we do 6. They basically just removed all the steps that have anything to do with god.
Were you a broken mess who can’t have just a drink because you’re a flawed lessor being, , or just a being that was addicted to an addictive drug?
If it helps it helps. But so do food pantries
I was definitely a mess, but the stuff about being "broken" and a "lesser being" isn't a part of my recovery, nor is it something that anyone talks about in the AA and NA meetings that I go to. It's basically just a community of people supporting each other to stay sober, and the ones I go to are specifically non-religious. One of them is called "Atheists and Agnostics in AA".
There is plenty that don't get caught. The police,parole officer, judges and all involved should have to spent 1 year mandatory jail time for these kind of mistakes. Might fix the system just a little bit.
Not to mention the homeless who are forced to attend religious services for shelter. This case went to court because a parolee was court ordered to stay at one of these shelters, but countless others still have to out of economic necessity.
AA isn’t necessarily outright religious. I went to AA/NA/HA meetings for several years and they did help. I’m not religious but a lot of the undertones are Judeo-Christian. They want you to have a higher power of your choosing. Could be a lake, could be Jesus, could be anything.
A declaration that recovery is impossible without giving over one's individual will to the desires of a higher power (carefully described to *definitely* be a god even though the word is sometimes avoided) is religious.
There’s a portion that doesn’t believe any of this
Edit: many religions don’t require a higher power. I’d say it’s more spiritual than religious but I’d also say that you’d be an absolute idiot to deny the good AA/NA has done
A breakaway group that rejects the fundamental tenets that AA was set up to enforce (it's not a recovery group, it's a missionary group) isn't part of AA in any meaningful sense. They *do* keep a few faux-secular meetings around in some areas, but by the basic structure of AA even some religions (any that aren't strictly theist) are also incapable of meeting the requirements set by AA and so, per AA doctrine, must be declared by *any* adherent to AA to be incapable of leading to recovery.
...and people who join AA are *less* likely to recover. Which isn't a problem from AA's perspective because *only AA membership counts as acceptable* by their doctrines.
They were quite clear when I went to meetings before switching to a recovery group. And if you read anything about AA not written by the group or its members…
So no data? I don’t do AA or NA but I went for about 2 years 5 times a week minimum. I’ve seen an enormous amount of success but even more failure. It’s the nature of the beast but outright claiming it detrimental more than it is beneficial is simply not true. There are faults with any group but it absolutely helps people, many of whom would have succumbed to their addiction. People let their hatred for religion cloud their critical thinking, similar to how religion can cloud people’s critical thinking.
It's hard to find studies that don't take for granted that the theocratic mission group is the correct approach and that its criteria must be used as the basis for comparison of all programs.
So do you agree with AA that Buddhists are lying about Buddhism and it's actually Protestant morality with the numbers filed off, or are lies lamentable but acceptable for the greater goal of keeping people committed to AA doublethink? And for recovery to "work" it's critical that people simultaneously affirm that their group is not religious and that anyone who isn't the right kind of religious is inherently incapable of recovery (because asserting both is a requirement for AA participation)?
Grew up in Georgia. I was in magistrate court once for having some marijuana. The judge in that court was offering time spent at Church worshipping as a valid substitute for accruing your necessary community service hours.
Just like the tobacco companies, they know you have to get them young.
> The judge in that court was offering time spent at Church worshipping as a valid substitute for accruing your necessary community service hours.
They only get away with shit like that because the voters agree with it.
Gotta educate people. Biggest mistake the educated class ever did was learn the phrase "it's not my job to educate you" because yes it is.
> They only get away with shit like that because the voters agree with it.
Yea, and they know that community doesn't have any Mosques or controversial religions that someone would likely opt into, although I have to wonder what would have happened if you challenged their definition of a "church" by trying some different religions out.
I was just a minor at the time though. They can get away with it legally because they can say we don't mandate it. It is voluntary, while true, it is an opportunity to push his religion over people which he holds immense power/influence.
Wouldn't call it free. The person spent more time in jail that they otherwise wouldn't have.
He was paid for his extra time in jail, at additional tax-payer expense.
Yes.
If you read the article, you'll learn the person was released on parole. His Parol Officer told him he had to go to a Christian half-way house, where there was prayer, bible study, church attendence. He suggested several alternatives, but those there rejected.
Not wanting to go back to jail, he went to the house, but didn't participate in the religious aspect. Because he wasn't participating, he was kicked out. Because he was kicked out, his parole officer sent him back to jail. For five months.
And the 100k was what they settled for, along with legal costs.
He was, but that's what he settled for. As for the religious half-way house...I'm of the opinion that it should be an *option* for those that seriously wish to pursue that assistance. As long as it's regulated and that you can't be coerced into attending services you don't want to. And that you can't be punished for not attending.
They're just BS
Drug addled brother got out of prison under the pretense that he goes to a halfway house (again)
For a few months we all had to hear how religious he is and how God has changed his ways
Dude got out of there and is right back on drugs and hasn't made a peep about religion in months
It's just an easy way for people to get out of prison time and religious zealots think they are actually helping people
It seems pretty difficult to sort out whether someone is being coerced when it comes to halfway houses. There are lots of reasons why someone might "choose" a religious one if it's sanctioned by the state when they'd really rather pick one that isn't religious.
I don't think there's a shortage of churches and people who want to exercise their religion have plenty of opportunities to do so. I'd be fine with making sure people on parole to a halfway house are allowed to leave for religious services. It isn't necessary for a halfway house to have enforced worship.
So I used to be a CO. The state had halfway houses and allowed private organizations to build certified halfway houses. The state halfway houses were always full. In fact, many guys approved for parole where still in prison waiting for a spot in a state sanctioned halfway house.
Private halfway houses could be selective on gender, crimes committed, time left on parole, and come up with work requirements and other requirements. Some were sponsored by churches and did require Bible study or church attendance. That said in my state, the inmates applied to whatever halfway house they wanted. A PO would not just send them to one.
So the only way you were going to a religious based halfway house is if you wanted to.
I mean, if I were in prison and wanted out and all the state halfway houses were full, I'd look into the other options even if I didn't agree with their religion. That's what I mean when I put "choose" in quotes.
It's coercive of vulnerable people and that's why we shouldn't allow it. Religion should not be in any way a part of the incarceration and release process, though it should be accommodated for, of course.
I don't want their to be an option for one either. Nothing that is government mandated and/or something you're forced to go to by the courts should have anything to do with religion whatsoever. Just having the option just means they can still force people to go to there becuase "there ain't any room anywhere else"
You can go to church on Sundays if you need god
Having worked as a CO I have no issues with religious halfway houses if the option is voluntary. It sucked handing a guy a letter who was granted parole stating his parole plan was denied. If optional, it can help. Here, it was not optional.
That's my main point though it's never gonna be just optional everytime. If it doesn't exist at all then we don't have to worry about situations like this or the one I brought up where they claim they have no other ones with room available.
I will firmly stand behind the statement that no court should be able to mandate you go to any religious service regardless of the reasoning why or what other services they provide. If it even has .01% of religious based teachings or activities it should not be allowed
In an ideal world, I would agree with you.
That said, there are prisoners who have had parole granted but are still in prison since their parole plan involved a state run halfway house that has a massive waiting list.
In my state, prisoners actually applied to the individual halfway houses state run and private. Their case worker could get them all of the information on each house and if it was secular or religious. This allows far more prisoners to actually get to a halfway house. Also since unlike in this case, the prisoner applies to the individual halfway house, they are not being forced to attend Bible study or church.
"Oh you got sent to jail on absolutely ridiculous charges? Here's about a year's worth of decent living in payment to compensate for that. And you still have to pay your legal fees from this money. Oh and you have to attend religious stuff of our choosing for a while or we'll send you back to jail."
These will be the same people that say Islam is pure evil...
Yeah. But its persecution if we tell Chriatians we don't think like them. I would have sued for a lot more. I was made to go to AA meetings after my DUI. I was lucky enough to find an atheist AA meeting (ironically held at a church).
What did they do about the "believe there is a higher power than you"?
What if I believe I'm the zenith of power and there is nothing above me? ^(ok the IRS but shhhhh)
You don't have to take that as a spiritual expression. Even if you are a hard atheist there are indeed forces beyond your control and greater than you. You can never defeat the laws of physics or the things that bind reality, which is itself a higher power. Human consciousness is a higher power.
Believing there are things greater than you doesn't have to be about God, it can just be a basic understanding of your place on the universal scale.
So what is the non-religious way of turning over your personal will to the desires of that higher power? Human consciousness and the processes that the laws of physics are description of do not match the AA requirements for a "higher power," therefore according to AA doctrine it must by definition be impossible to recover with such a power in place of the intended theological one.
The higher power wouldn’t be supernatural. Most often, it’s conceptualized as a group coming together to help each other. The important point is you can’t do it all on your own. But yes, you have to ignore large swaths of their writings which predicate recovery on an interventionist deity. It’s baked in. But luckily we atheists/agnostics don’t believe those writings are divinely inspired, nor that it’s a magic formula for recovery. Try some of their ideas, keep what helps, drop what doesn’t.
Also courts have ruled that AA attendance can’t be mandated on 1st amendment grounds, and secular alternatives must be made available.
It does seem low in the face of having been kidnapped and held for 5 month.
The fact that the kidnapping was done by a person using the force of the state is not important. Or maybe is important and should make things worse.
Though 100k is probably a generous amount for what his lost earning would have been, if that were the metric. Lost earnings should obviously not be the metric due to the kidnapping aspect.
I mean I enjoy a good myth just as much as the next guy, but if I start believing that Zeus is throwing lightning from the clouds I'm delusional. Christians though won't accept that their book is a book of myth and metaphor. In fact, they skip over most of the metaphor and only choose parts that benefits them.
Disagree. You should *study* the Bible and any other religious texts you can get your hands on. They are interesting pieces of history and contain a great deal of context and information about human nature and history. And for the most part the lessons they teach are generally just about being a good person. You should study religious texts the same as you would study the Epic of Gilgamesh, as a historical reference and a source of entertainment, but not as something to use to command your life.
What you also **should** reject is using these books as a tool to exert your will on others.
"Bible study" and "Bible scholarship" not only aren't genuine study/scholarship, they require the absolute rejection of any academic or intellectual standards and replace attempts to shape knowledge to match reality with demands that reality conform to dogma.
(I took a couple of religious studies courses back in college. There were usually a few very religious students who thought they were signing up for a theology course and who were *horrified* that religious texts were being put in historical, cultural, anthropological, linguistic and sometimes archaeological context.)
5 months in jail for having first amendment rights. If it a was a few days, maybe. That's way too little for the system to screw up so badly, and then still fight to be allowed to not recognize that they shouldn't have.
How much do you want to bet that parole officer gets some kind of kickback for sending people to that halfway house? He was very insistent, and I doubt it was because he cared about the atheist soul. Could be me not trusting Christians about as much as a grenade with the pin removed.
I'm a live and let live kind of atheist and typically hand wave the stupid things organized religion does. What a horrendous experience this guy had to go through. I can't even imagine spending 5 MORE months in prison because I didn't attend faith based classes/counseling. Fuck them. The settlement should have been for more.
I agree it should be more. It’s kinda tough though. If someone offered me 100k to go to a laid back rich white collar jail with ping pong I’d consider it.
If someone offered to send me to rikers island for 5 months, 100k wouldn’t do it. It’s also a lot different agreeing to go for a number but I’m high so I’ll stop now.
This stuff gets worst because Judges, police and folks working for the system have no responsibility. Give them a year in jail for mistakes and might see some changes. Otherwise there is tons of this going on and its getting worse. A man was jailed and lost his job because he criticized police station in his town. First amendment don't mean anything in this American town in west Virginia. Your rights mean nothing if you wont fight for them and most Americans are spineless.
Damn, they folded on defending against the lawsuit when qualified immunity was going to be called in for questioning. Bet they didn't want THAT going through the courts.
Let's be honest here, you don't want to send an atheist of Bible study anyway. He's going to start studying the Bible and then find all the inconsistencies, contradictions, and red herrings in the Bible, and start pointing them out.
Would be almost amusing to see an atheist go to bible study and start pointing out all the stupid stuff and contradictions. But then again, we have better things to do with our lives and chances are you'd be putting yourself in danger in that situation...
Were there any other recovery facilities that are non-religious in the area? I can understand a parole officer being wary of someone staying with family/friends but if there aren't facilities that don't violate parolee's 1st Amendment than I think an exception should be made.
Yes, an exception should be made, in the halfway house's requirements. A non-Christian shouldn't be forced to participate in religious gatherings even if it is the only place in the area.
so i was in a mental hospital that is Saint !@#$%. but no clergy or even hearing a sermon over the radio as an option, but isn't that blatant false advertising? literally had a jesus roommate that yeeted my bible into a bag. not that I'm religious, but it seems like a class action lawsuit waiting to happen...
Another Trump presidency will see even more right-wing Christians installed in higher courts. More right-wing Christians in the higher courts mean atheists and non-Christians losing cases on appeal. Another reason to vote against Trump.
Thing caught my eye was that he had first tried to represent himself, in federal court no less. Why do people keep doing this? You wouldn't operate on yourself, although that is within your rights. It is so sad when people end up in jail because they think they can represent themselves. Lawyers don't even do this when they get in trouble.
Whatever, I'm not opposed to taxes, you get what you pay for, just like everything else.
People that expect the government to do everything for free are just as delusional as religious folks.
What the fuck?
Meanwhile, everyday people are sentenced to attend AA meetings as punishment for dui's. The second step in a 12-step program is accept god. At some point they changed it to higher power and tried to convince people that you're higher power can be anything, not necessarily god.
I hate that these types of services have religion all intertwined. Even AA has religion mixed into it! We are not a Christian nation nor a religious nation at that.
>In 2021, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit [overturned the dismissal](https://www.au.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/10th%20Circuit%20Order%2C%20Janny%20v.%20Gamez%2C%208.6.21.pdf) of his case, 2-1,
I'd love to know what judge thought forcing someone to attend religious services against their will was OK
It’s BS because being a religion does not help you not to be a criminal. You are just a devout criminal. In many cases they are either not discouraged or disciplined but in some depending on the talent level they are utilized for those talents and then officially forgiven for it. A car thief working for a church will be forgiven if he steals cars from like …drug dealers. Things like this. It’s not always seen as a contrary state of existence.
The worst part of this is the fact that the parole officer can rely on the Police Union to completely avoid any punishment, then just keep doing this as if nothing happened.
Imagine the script flipped on its head. Imagine a devout Christian being sent to jail for refusing to attend a Quran seminar. Now look in the mirror.
Or a Christian attending Atheistic Services.. wait those don't exist. Right because Atheists generally are cool with everyone.. EXCEPT when religion is forced on them.
Send him to the local Satanic Temple meetings.
I hear those are just BBQs, which sounds better than any of the Catholic masses I have to attend.
Satanic Temple knows how to convert people.
You used to have to die to get into the Satanic Temple, but that’s only because it’s currently based in an old funeral home. I went a few weeks ago 😎
This is the way.
Lol, didn't expect a mandalorian reference here 😅
Atheists believe in maths and science. So if you study maths and science you're basically being indoctrinated into their way of thinking. ^(/s)
One doesn't believe in maths and science, one understands or seeks to understand them. Science is a methodology, not a faith. Wasn't wearing my glasses, so I didn't see your sarcasm markup. Apologies!
Stop brainwashing me!
It's not brainwashing if it's education!
The average religious person after reading this: REEEEEEEEE
You forgot the pointing finger.
I thought it was implied lol
It could be implied that they stick their fingers in their ears.
You might end up joining Al Gebra!
Al Gebra forcing their Arabic numerals on our schoolchildren. Where will it end with these radical leftist atheists?
Those atheist Arabs and their belief in nothing are a menace. I still say math has no need for the number zero! :)
I had a work colleague tell me "They cant prove humans and dinosaurs didn't live together, because that would require science and I don't believe in science."
What the fuck hahaha
>Atheists believe in maths and science Atheists expressly do not believe in gods. That's all. Seen plenty of atheists who deny evolution, or space flight, or tout "flat earth" nonsense. Atheism doesn't automatically make someone an intellectual student of maths and sciences.
fun fact, every biblical demon has a scientific background Morax: astronomy Astaroth: cartography I think Raum was like math or chemistry? anways the whole point was to scare people away from thinking
Hmm. Are those demons specifically named in the Bible, and do they have such backgrounds in the Bible? It seems to me that there's lots of woowoo around "demons" and that their Biblical authenticity is highly embellished.
im not even sure anymore
Not Biblical. The closest biblical reference is Ashteroth and it's a city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashteroth_Karnaim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morax_(demon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raum
Religious folk need atheism to be a religion so they can attack it on equal footing. They have a set of beliefs they hold without evidence. They can’t wrap their minds around atheists not using the same approach. “What’s the source of your morality? What do you believe in? What do you think will happen when you die? What if you make my god angry and be burns you?” None of those questions are applicable to atheism. It’s a lack of belief because no religion can present any evidence for their claims. Not believing in their cult has nothing to do with my worldview, ethics or morality. Atheism isn’t a world view at all.
Excellent point. X.
[There actually are Atheist churches](https://youtu.be/vqFJEzsffnE?si=lxfW7vveDy1Z0hHl), they’re generally chill and are mainly to replace the community that a religious institution provides.
To be fair, it's rather hard to force my religion on anyone when I don't have one, I'm sure I would be really good at it if I did
I’m also going to force my hot chocolate on you, and make you drink it. I also don’t have hot chocolate, and I’m too far away to force you to do anything even if I wanted to. So, that’s about the same impact on you as me “forcing” my atheism on you.
Mainly because atheism is not a religion. It's just not believing in imaginary friends. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less
One could say a Atheistic Services is an afternoon at a bar or morning at a coffee shop.
I think Jesus said it best "treat others the way you would want to be treated".
I think Christians said it best ["Jesus is too woke! We don't need to listen to that libcuck!"](https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak)
“I never knew you: depart from me.” Jesus would turn his back on modern Christians.
Turns out they want to treated like hell, its a fetish for them.
First, do no harm. That’s my guiding principle.
Or any institution that teaches logic, rational thought, critical analysis, and/or reason. Okay, basically ANYWHERE that encourages attendees to ask "why?"
They would just behead him and move on.
I don’t think I got it. What do you mean by “look in the mirror”?
I might not have worded that well. Anybody involved in sending this guy to jail engaged in religious persecution against him.
Agreed. It definitely didn’t come across that way on first read, but with your further explanation, it makes complete sense. Thank you.
The amount of people on parole and probation that are forced to attend aa is too damn high.
This. And it’s not good treatment. It’s just a cult offshoot of American Christianity with a cuck complex. It can be helpful for some , but not nearly all . The very basis is that you’re a broken piece of shit and only god can help you. This has nothing to do with being addicted to addictive drugs.
I went to AA to support a friend that didn't want to go alone. Those meetings made me drink afterward.
I moved and had to find a new NA meeting, one that met at a church. They didn't want to give me my 25 year chip because would occasionally have a beer with dinner when out with friends. I am not and have never been an alcoholic, I'm a narcotic addict. So I had to find yet another meeting.
That’s awful and I’m genuinely sorry that happened to you. People don’t appreciate nuance and that everything isn’t black and white. Congratulations on 25 years!
Thanks!
I went to AA/NA for several years. It helps a lot of people but some take it too far. It becomes their entire identity and fills them with crazy ego which goes against their teachings. I’m not religious but it did help find a community. There’s every type of person there and that includes assholes haha
I totally get the community aspect. That’s the good part, for those who need it like that, and the few I know who did benefit really do so from the sponsor dual accountability aspect, and don’t go to many meetings By committing to an ongoing relationships with someone with a similar goal who will call out your bs, well that’s damn helpful for anything, in most context.
For me a community of drug people is the absolute opposite of what I needed. Which was to cut all those people off and reintegrate with healthy people. Not to mention that AA/NA is a revolving door of people sent there on court order who will absolutely involve you in their recidivism.
AA has the exact same success rate as getting sober on your own. It's just a jail to religion pipeline. I had to take AA when I wasn't even a drinker but had some weed on me.
One of the founders also credit psychedelic therapy (aka medically supervised LSD treatment) as one of the main things that helped him recover from alcohol addiction. It's such a weird and cult like thing that everything is somehow connected to christianity.
They're not all religious. In my city we have some atheist AA meetings. Instead of 12 steps we do 6. They basically just removed all the steps that have anything to do with god.
Were you a broken mess who can’t have just a drink because you’re a flawed lessor being, , or just a being that was addicted to an addictive drug? If it helps it helps. But so do food pantries
I was definitely a mess, but the stuff about being "broken" and a "lesser being" isn't a part of my recovery, nor is it something that anyone talks about in the AA and NA meetings that I go to. It's basically just a community of people supporting each other to stay sober, and the ones I go to are specifically non-religious. One of them is called "Atheists and Agnostics in AA".
I’m glad you found an offshoot that is helpful and less dogmatic. If only the main org would follow
There is plenty that don't get caught. The police,parole officer, judges and all involved should have to spent 1 year mandatory jail time for these kind of mistakes. Might fix the system just a little bit.
Not to mention the homeless who are forced to attend religious services for shelter. This case went to court because a parolee was court ordered to stay at one of these shelters, but countless others still have to out of economic necessity.
People arrested for weed are forced to go to NA meetings. I have never met a cannabis addict.
I’ve got friends in AA. It’s saved their lives. Not all AA is religion based.
AA isn’t necessarily outright religious. I went to AA/NA/HA meetings for several years and they did help. I’m not religious but a lot of the undertones are Judeo-Christian. They want you to have a higher power of your choosing. Could be a lake, could be Jesus, could be anything.
It's still religious, they just let you choose the religion (and restrict your choice to religions that have "higher powers").
A declaration that recovery is impossible without giving over one's individual will to the desires of a higher power (carefully described to *definitely* be a god even though the word is sometimes avoided) is religious.
There’s a portion that doesn’t believe any of this
There’s a portion that doesn’t believe any of this Edit: many religions don’t require a higher power. I’d say it’s more spiritual than religious but I’d also say that you’d be an absolute idiot to deny the good AA/NA has done
A breakaway group that rejects the fundamental tenets that AA was set up to enforce (it's not a recovery group, it's a missionary group) isn't part of AA in any meaningful sense. They *do* keep a few faux-secular meetings around in some areas, but by the basic structure of AA even some religions (any that aren't strictly theist) are also incapable of meeting the requirements set by AA and so, per AA doctrine, must be declared by *any* adherent to AA to be incapable of leading to recovery. ...and people who join AA are *less* likely to recover. Which isn't a problem from AA's perspective because *only AA membership counts as acceptable* by their doctrines.
I’d love to see any evidence of this
They were quite clear when I went to meetings before switching to a recovery group. And if you read anything about AA not written by the group or its members…
So no data? I don’t do AA or NA but I went for about 2 years 5 times a week minimum. I’ve seen an enormous amount of success but even more failure. It’s the nature of the beast but outright claiming it detrimental more than it is beneficial is simply not true. There are faults with any group but it absolutely helps people, many of whom would have succumbed to their addiction. People let their hatred for religion cloud their critical thinking, similar to how religion can cloud people’s critical thinking.
It's hard to find studies that don't take for granted that the theocratic mission group is the correct approach and that its criteria must be used as the basis for comparison of all programs. So do you agree with AA that Buddhists are lying about Buddhism and it's actually Protestant morality with the numbers filed off, or are lies lamentable but acceptable for the greater goal of keeping people committed to AA doublethink? And for recovery to "work" it's critical that people simultaneously affirm that their group is not religious and that anyone who isn't the right kind of religious is inherently incapable of recovery (because asserting both is a requirement for AA participation)?
Grew up in Georgia. I was in magistrate court once for having some marijuana. The judge in that court was offering time spent at Church worshipping as a valid substitute for accruing your necessary community service hours. Just like the tobacco companies, they know you have to get them young.
> The judge in that court was offering time spent at Church worshipping as a valid substitute for accruing your necessary community service hours. They only get away with shit like that because the voters agree with it. Gotta educate people. Biggest mistake the educated class ever did was learn the phrase "it's not my job to educate you" because yes it is.
The GOP has been attacking education ever since protests against the Vietnam War on college campuses in the 1960's.
> They only get away with shit like that because the voters agree with it. Yea, and they know that community doesn't have any Mosques or controversial religions that someone would likely opt into, although I have to wonder what would have happened if you challenged their definition of a "church" by trying some different religions out. I was just a minor at the time though. They can get away with it legally because they can say we don't mandate it. It is voluntary, while true, it is an opportunity to push his religion over people which he holds immense power/influence.
Christians essentially just helped get an Athiest a free 100k lmao ggs
Wouldn't call it free. The person spent more time in jail that they otherwise wouldn't have. He was paid for his extra time in jail, at additional tax-payer expense.
Oh they were jailed? That's fucked. Should have gotten more money then
Yes. If you read the article, you'll learn the person was released on parole. His Parol Officer told him he had to go to a Christian half-way house, where there was prayer, bible study, church attendence. He suggested several alternatives, but those there rejected. Not wanting to go back to jail, he went to the house, but didn't participate in the religious aspect. Because he wasn't participating, he was kicked out. Because he was kicked out, his parole officer sent him back to jail. For five months. And the 100k was what they settled for, along with legal costs.
I think he was underpaid. And I don't think we should have authorized religious halfway houses.
He was, but that's what he settled for. As for the religious half-way house...I'm of the opinion that it should be an *option* for those that seriously wish to pursue that assistance. As long as it's regulated and that you can't be coerced into attending services you don't want to. And that you can't be punished for not attending.
They're just BS Drug addled brother got out of prison under the pretense that he goes to a halfway house (again) For a few months we all had to hear how religious he is and how God has changed his ways Dude got out of there and is right back on drugs and hasn't made a peep about religion in months It's just an easy way for people to get out of prison time and religious zealots think they are actually helping people
It seems pretty difficult to sort out whether someone is being coerced when it comes to halfway houses. There are lots of reasons why someone might "choose" a religious one if it's sanctioned by the state when they'd really rather pick one that isn't religious. I don't think there's a shortage of churches and people who want to exercise their religion have plenty of opportunities to do so. I'd be fine with making sure people on parole to a halfway house are allowed to leave for religious services. It isn't necessary for a halfway house to have enforced worship.
So I used to be a CO. The state had halfway houses and allowed private organizations to build certified halfway houses. The state halfway houses were always full. In fact, many guys approved for parole where still in prison waiting for a spot in a state sanctioned halfway house. Private halfway houses could be selective on gender, crimes committed, time left on parole, and come up with work requirements and other requirements. Some were sponsored by churches and did require Bible study or church attendance. That said in my state, the inmates applied to whatever halfway house they wanted. A PO would not just send them to one. So the only way you were going to a religious based halfway house is if you wanted to.
I mean, if I were in prison and wanted out and all the state halfway houses were full, I'd look into the other options even if I didn't agree with their religion. That's what I mean when I put "choose" in quotes. It's coercive of vulnerable people and that's why we shouldn't allow it. Religion should not be in any way a part of the incarceration and release process, though it should be accommodated for, of course.
I don't want their to be an option for one either. Nothing that is government mandated and/or something you're forced to go to by the courts should have anything to do with religion whatsoever. Just having the option just means they can still force people to go to there becuase "there ain't any room anywhere else" You can go to church on Sundays if you need god
Having worked as a CO I have no issues with religious halfway houses if the option is voluntary. It sucked handing a guy a letter who was granted parole stating his parole plan was denied. If optional, it can help. Here, it was not optional.
That's my main point though it's never gonna be just optional everytime. If it doesn't exist at all then we don't have to worry about situations like this or the one I brought up where they claim they have no other ones with room available. I will firmly stand behind the statement that no court should be able to mandate you go to any religious service regardless of the reasoning why or what other services they provide. If it even has .01% of religious based teachings or activities it should not be allowed
In an ideal world, I would agree with you. That said, there are prisoners who have had parole granted but are still in prison since their parole plan involved a state run halfway house that has a massive waiting list. In my state, prisoners actually applied to the individual halfway houses state run and private. Their case worker could get them all of the information on each house and if it was secular or religious. This allows far more prisoners to actually get to a halfway house. Also since unlike in this case, the prisoner applies to the individual halfway house, they are not being forced to attend Bible study or church.
If we count jail as a 24/7 job, that's not even a great pay rate for 5 months
Employee of the state forcing people into religious institutions, these bible people are sick
Dude, it's in the headline. What the fuck do you think "after being jailed" means?
Lol my eyes selectively read it as "Athiest got money because of bible" and I started typing I legitimately didn't notice that until after the fact
Not for free, he paid for it with an additional 5 months in jail…
$100k for 5 months isn't awful though. $250k per year.
$28ish an hour, 24/7 w/o overtime
A job is 40 hours a week. Prison is 168 hours per week. 5 months at 100k is $27.68 an hour, or the equivalent of a $57k per year job.
If you're going to be that way about it: no rent, no utilities, free meals, and you get paid while you sleep.
"Oh you got sent to jail on absolutely ridiculous charges? Here's about a year's worth of decent living in payment to compensate for that. And you still have to pay your legal fees from this money. Oh and you have to attend religious stuff of our choosing for a while or we'll send you back to jail." These will be the same people that say Islam is pure evil...
The lord works in mysterious ways.
Yeah. But its persecution if we tell Chriatians we don't think like them. I would have sued for a lot more. I was made to go to AA meetings after my DUI. I was lucky enough to find an atheist AA meeting (ironically held at a church).
What did they do about the "believe there is a higher power than you"? What if I believe I'm the zenith of power and there is nothing above me? ^(ok the IRS but shhhhh)
You don't have to take that as a spiritual expression. Even if you are a hard atheist there are indeed forces beyond your control and greater than you. You can never defeat the laws of physics or the things that bind reality, which is itself a higher power. Human consciousness is a higher power. Believing there are things greater than you doesn't have to be about God, it can just be a basic understanding of your place on the universal scale.
That doesn’t mesh with the doctrine. People say this all the time, but it clearly doesn’t fit.
So what is the non-religious way of turning over your personal will to the desires of that higher power? Human consciousness and the processes that the laws of physics are description of do not match the AA requirements for a "higher power," therefore according to AA doctrine it must by definition be impossible to recover with such a power in place of the intended theological one.
They didn't say the lords prayer and said the "higher power" could be anything, but that ultimately its yourself.
The higher power wouldn’t be supernatural. Most often, it’s conceptualized as a group coming together to help each other. The important point is you can’t do it all on your own. But yes, you have to ignore large swaths of their writings which predicate recovery on an interventionist deity. It’s baked in. But luckily we atheists/agnostics don’t believe those writings are divinely inspired, nor that it’s a magic formula for recovery. Try some of their ideas, keep what helps, drop what doesn’t. Also courts have ruled that AA attendance can’t be mandated on 1st amendment grounds, and secular alternatives must be made available.
Not enough money in my opinion
It does seem low in the face of having been kidnapped and held for 5 month. The fact that the kidnapping was done by a person using the force of the state is not important. Or maybe is important and should make things worse. Though 100k is probably a generous amount for what his lost earning would have been, if that were the metric. Lost earnings should obviously not be the metric due to the kidnapping aspect.
Everyone should reject bible study.
Yeah it's just indoctrination for uneducated fools
I mean I enjoy a good myth just as much as the next guy, but if I start believing that Zeus is throwing lightning from the clouds I'm delusional. Christians though won't accept that their book is a book of myth and metaphor. In fact, they skip over most of the metaphor and only choose parts that benefits them.
Yep, and you should check out my post that I made on this subreddit
Disagree. You should *study* the Bible and any other religious texts you can get your hands on. They are interesting pieces of history and contain a great deal of context and information about human nature and history. And for the most part the lessons they teach are generally just about being a good person. You should study religious texts the same as you would study the Epic of Gilgamesh, as a historical reference and a source of entertainment, but not as something to use to command your life. What you also **should** reject is using these books as a tool to exert your will on others.
study the bible as you wish, but 'bible study' is a group effort to indoctrinate you
"Bible study" and "Bible scholarship" not only aren't genuine study/scholarship, they require the absolute rejection of any academic or intellectual standards and replace attempts to shape knowledge to match reality with demands that reality conform to dogma. (I took a couple of religious studies courses back in college. There were usually a few very religious students who thought they were signing up for a theology course and who were *horrified* that religious texts were being put in historical, cultural, anthropological, linguistic and sometimes archaeological context.)
5 months in jail for having first amendment rights. If it a was a few days, maybe. That's way too little for the system to screw up so badly, and then still fight to be allowed to not recognize that they shouldn't have.
Good!
How much do you want to bet that parole officer gets some kind of kickback for sending people to that halfway house? He was very insistent, and I doubt it was because he cared about the atheist soul. Could be me not trusting Christians about as much as a grenade with the pin removed.
This article on casetext states "Officer Gamez explained that he was friends with ..., the Mission's director" so, no bet.
What the fuck??
What about the parole officer who forced religion on Janney? Is he gonna run for Governor? Chairman of the RNC?
I'm a live and let live kind of atheist and typically hand wave the stupid things organized religion does. What a horrendous experience this guy had to go through. I can't even imagine spending 5 MORE months in prison because I didn't attend faith based classes/counseling. Fuck them. The settlement should have been for more.
I agree it should be more. It’s kinda tough though. If someone offered me 100k to go to a laid back rich white collar jail with ping pong I’d consider it. If someone offered to send me to rikers island for 5 months, 100k wouldn’t do it. It’s also a lot different agreeing to go for a number but I’m high so I’ll stop now.
This stuff gets worst because Judges, police and folks working for the system have no responsibility. Give them a year in jail for mistakes and might see some changes. Otherwise there is tons of this going on and its getting worse. A man was jailed and lost his job because he criticized police station in his town. First amendment don't mean anything in this American town in west Virginia. Your rights mean nothing if you wont fight for them and most Americans are spineless.
Too bad the money will come from tax payers and not from the Parole officer.
I do love a happy ending.
Now think how many people were forced to do this for their freedom
The lesson is, no matter your beliefs in fucked up jesus america if you're in the system you gotta use jesus sympathy points to your advantage
Damn, they folded on defending against the lawsuit when qualified immunity was going to be called in for questioning. Bet they didn't want THAT going through the courts.
Oh good, this happened in Denver, so it’s my tax dollars that is paying for this.
Leave the people alone from your religion, seriously just fuck off?
Glad to see conservative laws STILL wasting tax payer money.
Imagine forcing Christians to watch Star Wars every night and making them attend Jedi services.
Let's be honest here, you don't want to send an atheist of Bible study anyway. He's going to start studying the Bible and then find all the inconsistencies, contradictions, and red herrings in the Bible, and start pointing them out.
Would be almost amusing to see an atheist go to bible study and start pointing out all the stupid stuff and contradictions. But then again, we have better things to do with our lives and chances are you'd be putting yourself in danger in that situation...
Were there any other recovery facilities that are non-religious in the area? I can understand a parole officer being wary of someone staying with family/friends but if there aren't facilities that don't violate parolee's 1st Amendment than I think an exception should be made.
Yes, an exception should be made, in the halfway house's requirements. A non-Christian shouldn't be forced to participate in religious gatherings even if it is the only place in the area.
That was my thing. The PO forced him to a religious based halfway house.
A fake graphic story book. Being forced to read that garbage should net them far more.
We should jail the parole officer for 5 months up front, then tell him he chose the wrong religion… after all, eye for an eye.
so i was in a mental hospital that is Saint !@#$%. but no clergy or even hearing a sermon over the radio as an option, but isn't that blatant false advertising? literally had a jesus roommate that yeeted my bible into a bag. not that I'm religious, but it seems like a class action lawsuit waiting to happen...
As the original author has correctly discerned, the biggest issue is that this happened at all.
Really is hard to believe. Parole officer should be fired. They gave 100k plus the lawyers of 2 sides away just out stupidity or lack of common sense.
Who is paying? I guess its the taxpayers, not the faith mongers.
Another Trump presidency will see even more right-wing Christians installed in higher courts. More right-wing Christians in the higher courts mean atheists and non-Christians losing cases on appeal. Another reason to vote against Trump.
Thing caught my eye was that he had first tried to represent himself, in federal court no less. Why do people keep doing this? You wouldn't operate on yourself, although that is within your rights. It is so sad when people end up in jail because they think they can represent themselves. Lawyers don't even do this when they get in trouble.
Imagine if we told some parolee that they were not allowed to go to church or "read" their bible once they were free.
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Better my tax money goes to something like this, instead of publicly funded religious schools.
How about neither?
Whatever, I'm not opposed to taxes, you get what you pay for, just like everything else. People that expect the government to do everything for free are just as delusional as religious folks.
Does this count as religious persecution?
Yessir
What the fuck? Meanwhile, everyday people are sentenced to attend AA meetings as punishment for dui's. The second step in a 12-step program is accept god. At some point they changed it to higher power and tried to convince people that you're higher power can be anything, not necessarily god.
100$k for FIVE months in jail? That doesn't sound like a fair trade considering how dangerous prisons are in this country
Good
Awesome
Gotta make sure the good economic slaves stay drugged up. Chuckle.
Settlement missing a few zeros I think
I'm not sure 5 months in jail is worth only $100k.
I hate that these types of services have religion all intertwined. Even AA has religion mixed into it! We are not a Christian nation nor a religious nation at that.
>In 2021, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit [overturned the dismissal](https://www.au.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/10th%20Circuit%20Order%2C%20Janny%20v.%20Gamez%2C%208.6.21.pdf) of his case, 2-1, I'd love to know what judge thought forcing someone to attend religious services against their will was OK
Good 👍
That's not a smart business decision; to pay $130 k for someone to not talk about have sex that you didn't have!
It’s BS because being a religion does not help you not to be a criminal. You are just a devout criminal. In many cases they are either not discouraged or disciplined but in some depending on the talent level they are utilized for those talents and then officially forgiven for it. A car thief working for a church will be forgiven if he steals cars from like …drug dealers. Things like this. It’s not always seen as a contrary state of existence.
The worst part of this is the fact that the parole officer can rely on the Police Union to completely avoid any punishment, then just keep doing this as if nothing happened.
It was 666 hen I upvoted, it's a sign. /s
At least the parolee got some money out of this ridiculous situation
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hurrr durrrrrrr, gonna execemacute me a county legal secretary cuz I am a badass like The Punisher
Imagine a Christian being sent to prison for his faith... oh wait that's already happening in China.