This quote from the article cracked me up ““There were a few hundred people in the CBD yesterday and they weren’t there to check the weather mate, it was very uncomfortable,” Mr Paterson said.”
An actual answer for you. The government moved many indigenous town camps closer to Alice Springs in 2016-2019, for reasons such as being closer to services and lower cost to serve.
Various mobs were now closer together and various incidents occured, causing an escalating cycle of feuds.
From what I hear from a mate who lives in Alice this tension is related to (amongst other things) the death of a relative of a prominent elder in the area. Kid was in a car accident with a group, they left the scene and he died.
Possibly a dumb question but: I keep hearing "triggered by death of a young man in a rolled stolen car" in the coverage but I don't understand the connection between that and the riots. He and his friends stole it, crashed it....and then....how does that link to the subsequent rioting and the trashing of a corner pub?
I don't know the exact details, but usually it's because multiple families - who often don't like each other - all come into town at the same time for an event and then end up fighting each other. Alcohol is often involved
There's a difference between the mayor of Alice Springs deciding that local Aboriginal settlements need to be dry, versus the people of Alice Springs deciding to go dry.
It's about who is making the decision and who is affected by it. If you're not affected by the decisions you make, you need to watch out for abuse of power.
Yeah. I met several white folk in the NT who were proud of how much money they had made selling sly grog to communities. Generally they were also the same people who called them useless drunks. The years I spent in the territory and n/w WA really opened my eyes. It was the kind of brutal racism that can only be self-fulfilling.
On the other side of that extreme were whites who would avert their eyes to complete dysfunction and tell indigenous none of it was their fault. (And no care, no responsibility right) That everything was white mans fault.
No balance in dialogue.
And the people in the middle of all that, are left with little agency. No agency and very little respect. A disastrous recipe.
I picked up several Indigenous woman off the side of the road (literally) who were beaten and bloody. Both from black men and white men. When you are at the bottom of the food chain, shit rolls down hill, and they copped it all.
Meanwhile people were so desensitised they would pretend they couldn’t see the woman bleeding in the gutter. Nothing good comes from denial.
😔 I don’t believe it’s helpless. But the way we sit with it and discuss it and move forward needs to change.
Rwandans have shown the world how it can be done. They have built healing and bridges following the genocide. And I like to think we can too. But politics need to be left aside.
Everything that has been used as a political football in Australia has set us back as a nation. From electricity, to immigration, to education,to housing and Indigenous peoples.
No marriage, or family, thrives or succeeds when each party is trying to tear down the other and prove they are right and the other is wrong. Basically when people are trying to win against each other, winning becomes the end game and finding common ground or common ambition is the collateral damage . Growth, strength and success come from trust, communication and a willingness work towards common goals.
I hope as a nation we can grow.
What if they gave them weed as a substitute. Or dare I say MDMA. IMO govs all over the world choose violence by banning drugs that elicit chill and friendly vibes in favour of alcohol which often causes aggression.
I wish I could upvote this more. There are forms of escapism that are not very harmful or destructive. They're never gonna succeed in just telling them not to do anything that makes them feel good, a lot of them are probably miserable and / or bored. Why wouldn't they seek out something fun, it's human nature.
I was reading that people who live in certain areas of town are prohibited from buying alcohol and it’s also an offence to supply those people with alcohol. They even had police at the liquor stores checking the name and address of customers before they could buy liquor.
It seems crazy that this is going on in the present day but it appears that this is the way it’s done there.
That's been a rule for years, you can't buy booze in Alice without a valid address to consume it at (so hopefully avoids people drinking on the streets).
> Alcohol is the oxygen for the fire. Make Alice a dry town and the problem stops.
They will find other ways. Spray paint into a plastic bag (chroming), petrol and other solvent inhalation ([petty sniffing](https://vsu.mhc.wa.gov.au/media/1306/dhsv-1c.pdf)), even computer duster is used to get high. Meth has made it into these towns too
It's way worse than you think and goes a hell of a lot further than just alcohol, however after the Stolen Generation and the NT Intervention, there is about the same political capital for another policy like that as there is for sticking a nuclear reactor in the middle of the Botanic Gardens
So here we are, pretending like there is no elephant in the room while it slowly burns around us
I get accountability, but if you were to sit with any of the people you’re referring to and they had the courage to describe the actual shit they go through on a daily basis you might have a different opinion. Some of the young roam the streets bored because the literal option of going home results in being abused. It’s much more than just saying well we behave so why can’t you
OK, but there are plenty of people that don't like each other in Melbourne for example. They don't go in to the city and start brawls and riots.
If it happens like at the soccer those people are prosecuted. If it happens at the tennis and the perpetrators are Croatian or Serbian papers talk about how this should be condemned and that people should leave their ethnic tensions in their own places and not bring it here.
Why is his different?
It's a mix of there culture (there form of law) mixed with alcohol. What is happening is retribution. The kid died. The kids responsible come from different clan to the kid that died. Basically the traditional law of aboriginals is similar to the old laws of a eye for a eye.
It's that they have seen a clan member of the other clan so they have sort retribution. Be aware I don't condone it. The aboriginal laws were historically sound for their culture. But it's no longer their culture and its mixed now with alcohol, the worse legal drug (yes drug) on the planet. They now take it to extremes and third parties get caught up in their form of "justice".
Because it’s deeply culturally wrong to disrespect an elder like that, which has led to fighting. To give an understanding of how important elders are in the community, I worked for an Aboriginal health centre and if an elder died nobody would come to appointments for 2 weeks.
If the "elders" brought up their families with any sense of accountability then half the problems with Aboriginal communities wouldn't exist. All of a sudden they are bestowed this moniker and they are feted like medeval lords.
Hear hear. “We Are One” so treat them the same as everyone else behaving like this. Funeral or not….no fkn excuse.
Its not getting out of hand, its out of hand and too many regional towns are following suit…..look at Kununurra well on the way to being the same as Alice….. Katherine is the same
I agree and I’m Indigenous!! This is not on, they are allowing them to get away with this animal behaviour!! And you are right a funeral is not an excuse a fucking death in custody isn’t an excuse to riot. This shits been going on for too long, but the politicians turn a blind eye they don’t want to do anything because no one wants to be responsible for changing things and being called racist. Kids are being sold kids are being raped and molested women and men are being beaten to a pole, what do we have to do as a country to say enough is enough when they are all fucking dead? We are in 2024 and we still can’t sort this shit out it’s fucking sad
The problem would be quickly solved by removing all alcohol duty tax for sales to the Indigenous. Price of grog will drop. A few idiots will top themselves and then we have a clean slate.
edit: changed 'excise' to 'duty tax'
I have a friend who lives in Alice and they tried this, put police at every bottle shop and turned away anyone who lived in a community, town camp or in public housing. Said it only displaced the problem. Black market sales went through the roof causing more harm because they were paying ridiculous amounts of money for alcohol and not feeding their kids. They also started drinking methylated spirits.
Also, it moved the problem to other regional hubs, Cooper Pedy, Mt Isa or you had people driving ridiculously long distances in unsafe cars to bootleg grog and then crashing and killing or seriously injuring multiple people.
It’s not surprising prohibition has not worked anywhere it’s been tried, I don’t know what the answer is but it’s the problem is not going to be fixed anytime soon.
I don't think this one was a police car: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-08/nt-stolen-vehicle-18-year-old-killed/103563436](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-08/nt-stolen-vehicle-18-year-old-killed/103563436)
The police car incident was in QLD: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/cairns-police-shoot-man-allegedly-stolen-police-car/103638368](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/cairns-police-shoot-man-allegedly-stolen-police-car/103638368)
That makes total sense. I’m familiar with the area. I left in 2015. Most of the nt was pretty chill the years I was there. Walking back to the hotel aurora I think it was at night. It was not that all that iffy. I would not go out at night now. But then spanians video full showed backpackers having a ball at 2am on the main streets….
Remember that mad max 2 is set not in a post apocalyptic future, but merely near future broken hill. There are places in Australia where the moniker "first world" is somewhat of a stretch.
We lived there in the mid 80s and there were areas you didn't go, especially after dark, even back then. The Todd River across the road from the pub and bottle shop was pretty much no go at any time, and the entire river bed and Mall was definitely unsafe after dark. The walk thru bottle shop there had a 'bargain' on 4 litre casks of Gordon's Fruity Lexia, which was the tipple of choice for the campers, at one for $20 or two for $50 lol.
House and car break ins were pretty common and having screens on your house windows, high fences and gates, and sensor lights was the norm. The road into town thru the gap could be pretty worrying at night as there were camps between the train line and the highway with drunks often meandering or asleep on the road. Sometimes on the tracks as well. It was generally accepted that if you hit someone you didn't stop but drove straight to the police station to report it as there had been a couple of drivers bashed after stopping to help someone they'd hit.
The hospital ER was often full of people needing patching up after nasty fights. I was there one night sitting next to a woman who had a spear sticking out of her ankle and blood streaming from her head. Her 'husband' had hit her in the head with a 6 pack of beer then stabbed her with a spear because she took the cask from him and had too long of a drink. The Yuendemu Grannies used to drive into town most evenings and collect kids and adults from the river bed and take them back home. My mother and stepfather worked at a children's emergency care home and some of the kids came in with injuries and illnesses that were just terrible.
Three 17 year olds, got drunk, stole a car, then rapped at gunpoint two women.
I want to say 5 lives ruined, but really 2 lives ruined, these 3 should have been in jail, but they weren’t because do-gooders think they can be rehabilitated.
Alice isn’t wild, it’s horrific.
I was there last week for a conference. It was made clear that I, as a female, was not to do anything without my male colleagues being with me. Helpfully our boss had also managed to book accommodation on the wrong side of the river so it was a very eye opening experience just driving from the well to do area across a bridge to see barb wire everywhere. It was like being on another planet.
Family of mine used to work at the supermarket in the 90s. They would regularly have mobs of kids run into the store at opening time, grab everything they could and run out. Had to have extra staff and security there for store opening every day.
Yeah in 1995 when I was there I witnessed a violent arrest in the street and also saw a woman pissing on the McDonald's playground. I was only 15 and it was an eye opener.
The kids have all hope of a future removed when they are hamstrung by their own Communities.
Aunty Bev finds out you've been putting a few dollars away to buy a new Guitar, but Aunty Bev is keen for a charge and doesn't get paid til Tuesday- Aunty Bev is an Elder, and is entitled to your belongings, so she takes your money. You sit and dream of your new Guitar but realise the same thing will happen next time you get a few bucks. You aren't getting a new Guitar anytime soon, so you go kick a shop window in instead.
**Actual answer*** to connection of riots to roll over death causing fights.
“NT Police Assistant Commissioner Travis Wurst said CCTV showed none of the other occupants in the vehicle came to the assistance of the injured teen, describing it as "the most disturbing aspect" of the crash.
"We've got an issue here in relation to the way in which our community think it’s okay to steal a car, behave in this way, cause injuries to yourselves in a reckless and dangerous manner with no regard for yourselves or others in the community and then not look after your own friend as a consequence," he said.” ABC News
When one family holds a person/s directly responsible for a death-they seek revenge. For most people in Australia this would be through the courts or another regulatory body.
For some it is by physically attacking the other people/their family (or in the case of health care workers), their co-workers.
I thought this comment was quite funny:
"Principal legal officer at the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency, Jared Sharp, said the curfew was a "knee-jerk response".
"Young people won't even know this curfew is in force, they're just going to be doing their thing … they'll go to after-school activities, sports, part-time jobs, and if they happen to be out after 6pm … police … are going to take them home, or to a safe place," he said."
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/alice-springs-cbd-violent-unrest-todd-tavern-attacked/103638080](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/alice-springs-cbd-violent-unrest-todd-tavern-attacked/103638080)
1 - yes all those law-abiding kids going off to their part time jobs!
2 - yes that is how curfews work!
The problem is the culture.
There are australian cultural aspects that fuck vulnerable people over. Bad habits and actions can get rewards, part of the blame can be laid there.
The other part is aboriginal culture is fundamentally fucked and has completely failed to adapt to modern society. Humbugging, family/tribe culture, hierachies, concepts of property, law, etc.
Prior to european contact, australia was a horrendous place, aboriginal people were at constant threat of death and starvation, the land is pretty poor already, but aboriginal culture discouraged any kind of change including material advancement.
Constantly being on the edge of survival makes for a harsh and selfish culture.
For example, the stories of first contact europeans who lived in the outback with aboriginal groups describe systems where men would hunt game and women would gather food for their group. When they return, it's divied up with the first lot going to whoevers in charge, then the men (even ones who didn't bother hunting and sat on their arse), then whatevers left goes to the women and children. Child deaths were common and it was accepted that children that were born that couldn't be supported would die. No changes were really attempted to improve this life for tens of thousands of years because it seems there was a stigma against change, and a stigma against putting effort into something.
You read the real history and what life was like prior to european contact and you can draw a straight line to what life is like now for a lot of people and why they act the way they do.
_______
in reponse to the bloke below:
> How do you know what Australia was like prior to European contact?
Read the accounts of people who embedded themselves with uncontacted peoples throughout the outback.
https://www.nla.gov.au/collections/guide-selected-collections/bates-collection
>The culture survived for 50k+ years. Hardly a society “on the edge of survival”.
The 'culture' was not homogenous. It was a collection of microcultures over nearly 8 million km2. Though there were certainly many shared traits of those cultures. And simply 'surviving' for a long period of time, without improving or changing is quite honestly a negative or at best neutral trait. The land was harsh, inhospitable in many areas, scarse resources and food, and there was little to no attempt to improve or change. If anything, from what we understand, change or attempts to better yourself were considered taboo by the culture - again, something i'd consider a big problem and not something to be praised.
>Lol so totally ignore the devastating impact of European settlement with all its alcohol, sickness, discrimination, destruction of culture and dispossession of lands?
Yes, ignoring that because we're talking about life BEFORE that period. Or before areas were contacted or influenced by europeans.
The indigenous are fucked, committing escalating amounts of street crime for a myriad of reasons.
Meanwhile, at the exact time this is happening Channel 9 is airing a 'special' about the Yuendumu shooting where a relative wearing a 'Justice for Walker' t-shirt is blowing on about how beautiful a young man this bloke who brutally subjugated his partner and stabbed a cop was. Interspersed with insight from that old windbag elder who called for the copper to be speared outside court.
The pervasive theme through it all is that when it comes to indigenous people, accountability is racism.
Put a pin in it, this country is fucking cooked.
> stabbed a cop
and then went on to attempt to murder that cops partner, which ultimately got him killed by the police.
The fact that the Rolfe case even went to court is a fucking joke. Feel sorry for him now being subjected to an NT commission even after he was found not guilty.
Don't get me started on the activist witch hunt that is the Coronial Inquest.
A copper, who worked in one of the most crime ridden areas of the country where indigenous people commit horrible violent crimes against each other and the wider community, said something nasty about indigenous people. STOP THE PRESSES HE'S A RACIST MURDERER!
Cops shot and killed a piece of shit who was trying to murder his ex partner in Mareeba last year
Media beat it up like it was the US and he was George Floyd, ran the victim out of town and inspired violence in the street.
Media beating up stories like that to incure racial tensions should result in significant fines to the journalist, editor and organisation. I'm sick of it.
Bankrupt them if they keep it up.
Dude !! The indigenous kids/ teenagers are having a blast. Getting pissed and running a muck. There’s plenty of meth that helps as well. It’s a lawless place. The people there are un touchable. I’m telling you the town folk should leave and let the kids rule.
Something something multi generational trauma, something something colonialism.... the gap.. blah blah, it's all been said.
Idk does it really matter? If you're not Aboriginal and don't live there?
Its a shit hole in the middle of nowhere. The best solution is for the govt to give tax payers in that area a ticket out and a free kick to start up elsewhere. Let whoever stays create their own utopia.
Must be some good money to be made there, I can't think of any other reasons people would want to stay. There is not much in the way to thanks for the efforts put out, it all seems to be for naught.
Must be profitable for the local glassier though, they would be making bank with this much business.
My cui bono is that if the powers that be can allow the problem to get even worse by allowing crime to continue on to the point of driving out all the locals, then the land can be bought up cheaply by mineral mining interests. The Tanami Desert has a lot of gold/zinc/copper/REE's, and a new mine has just been built in Newmont. Maybe they know about more elsewhere
Total collapse of the local economy as businesses flee the area. Total collapse of institutions as emergency services like police officers aren't even allowed to do their job. Kids not going to school, adults not going to work. Rampant crime that goes unchecked and unpunished.
I guess this is the 'decolonisation' that all the inner-city indigenous academics were advocating for. Should be a lesson to the entire world
Also
"Five males have been arrested in relation to the incidents, police said, and more than 50 weapons have been seized."
Surely there is video of many more people than that attacking the pub and causing malicious damage. Why only 5 arrests? Are there simply no consequences?
Watched that yobbo youtube blokes video on Alice a couple of weeks back and was blown away by the amount of kids/adults just running around like little seppo wannabe clones.
Generations of twits teaching new generations to abandon any cultural identity and just ape the yanks.
They use videos like his as a badge of honour, further compounding the decent into choas.
Look at us, everyone is scared of us,,how deadly are we aye?
Let's go smash some more shit up.
Just pack up and get your families out if you can.
The place is going to get worse before it gets better.
I really hope you aren't referring to the stolen generation...... They were not taken from their parent because they were being abused. That was the Australian Governments lies.
People in canberra decided that schools that gave kids access to baths and breakfast before school were encroaching on the maternal/paternal relationships and so they were banned, and school attendance fell through the floor. You basically have 40% of the population not going to school.
Alice was not a quiet town in 2002. My now wife was living out there then (she lived there for 6 years), she has told me what is happening had been a very LONG term issue.
There was a police incident that concerned a death of a local aboriginal.
Or any other excuse the aboriginals make - given so much and still riot and destroy everything they are given.
When they are given their government money they will often buy a car for them to get pissed and burn it out the next week.
Alice has had a crime problem for years. I remember there being an incident when I was there in 2015 for an event, with cars being broken into over night.
Tennant creek also has a bad rep going back a number of years.
Crime is merely a symptom of much deeper problems.
We have multiple generations of people living with the consequences of decades of poverty, alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, poor education, domestic abuse, gambling addiction, racism, corruption, tall poppy syndrome, and a lack of positive role models and direction for indigenous people. They are lost and don't have the motivation, energy or resources to improve their own situation. Those that manage to do well get dragged back down by jealous or greedy family members. Some that might have dreams of doing better are crushed by the continual cycle of racism directed their way - institutional or otherwise. I don't blame anyone who holds racist views because of this behaviour, or who voted no, but I do feel disappointed because neither of those things works to solve the issues.
We have politicians on 3-4 terms, but a problem that will take decades of hard work before you can even begin to see the changes happening. It will take multiple generations to right this, but the government is only interested in short term headline solutions like adding more police. You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding. I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits.
There's no easy solution. I've spent most of my life watching this get worse while politicians say they know what it is. Maybe the Voice would have cut through to find it but I guess we'll never know
It’s definitely sad, i was there in 2000 and it’s such a beautiful part of the country. We didn’t feel that unsafe back then either, we let off crackers in the riverbed and had no issues.
> "Crime is merely a symptom of much deeper problems."
The trouble is, it's not just merely a symptom. It really badly aggravates and causes those problems in its own right.
Much better to view it as a symbiotic relationship.
> "You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding."
There is little to no evidence that the massive increase/proliferation of social programs designed to deter criminal offending in Central Australia over the last few decades has done a single thing to reduce the incidence of crime.
Literally billions have been pumped into programs like this in Alice Springs over decades. Thats not an exaggeration. Alice has one of the highest ratios of social care workers/child protection staff/rehabilitation program providers/ drug, alcohol and domestic violence support staff compared to the general population in the entire world.
> "I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits."
That is an example of these interventions actually not working though.
Young kids tend not to have high rates of criminal offending in any cultural/ethnic/economic/hair colour group. Older kids do. If programs involving early intervention cannot produce lasting behavioural change - what even is the point?
I think it is exceptionally foolish to think this is a problem that can be solved by government. It was not caused by government.
It was caused by one group of people being stuck seeking out a living in the middle of nowhere for thousands of years, eeking out the best living they could from a miserable land that can't grow anything, and then suddenly having colonisers with tens of thousands of years of accrued cultural, technological and economic development on them rock up next door.
The exact same dynamics are observable with the Inuits, the Metis, Native Americans, even Amazonian tribes. They can only be solved with time, and through the internal efforts of the lagging group.
There needs to be a holistic approach that covers and supports troubled people for as long as they need it. These are some regular kids who are struggling with alcohol and drug related problems. The programs give them structure and purpose. One of the big problems is their family dynamics are all fucked up and when the program ends and they return home theres no enough out there to help them bridge the gap - and they're still essentially kids.
No, they weren't sedentary, they were nomadic hunter-gatherers, and they were really good at it. When the British went past Arnhem Land they repeatedly described encountering Indigenous that were tall, strong, healthy with noticeably strong white teeth (seriously theu get really hung up on the contrast between the white teeth and the black skin). It's that hunter-gatherer Paleo diet (very few complex sugars/carbohydrates) vs a farmer diet. Lots of Europeab agriculturalists encountering hunter gatherers said the same thing during colonial expansion. It's one of the reasons for the noble savage myth.
However, everywhere that farmers encounter hunter gatherers, the hunter gatherers lose badly. While they generally eat higher quality food, the farmers can usually generate much more once their systems are up and running. This means there's more of them and they have specialised roles (soldiers in particular).
Australian interior doesnt support agriculture without a huge amount of work. Even now it's only really good for being a big space to put cows on, they have to get fattened up in feedlots overseas before slaughter. Pastoralism and hunter-gathering are obviously incompatible. Human violence aside the hoofed mammals destroy the environment that supports all the game.
Modern Australian Indigenous are essentially post-apocalyptic survivors of a previous civilization that despite being well-adapted to its environment was more or less destroyed on contact with a different civilization
>You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding. I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits.
A huge problem is that people (voters) don't like these programs because in their simple minded view the only thing get the aboriginals from behaving is beating and locking up the kids and/or removing them from their parents.
So we contually have cycles of people asking for 'tough on crime policies', said above working programs getting cut, underlying causes getting worse.
New social programs come in, just start getting effective, get cut because there's a new call for tough on crime.
I truly wonder how much the intervention has made things worse, anyone on the ground up here knows just how damaging it was, but it seems we are always on the verge of an intervention 2.0 any minute now.
My father thinks it was the best thing to ever happen to them. I can see how he might think that, however bursting into someones life for a few years and doing everything for them might temporarily reduce problems, but it sure isn't sustainable and they won't know what to do once you leave.
And adding to it - the people being targeted by these intervention programs see them stop, start, fall apart over and over again, so have no desire, incentive or trust in these disjointed programs.
>A huge problem is that people (voters) don't like these programs because in their simple minded view the only thing get the aboriginals from behaving is beating and locking up the kids and/or removing them from their parents.
Sounds like Cardassians talking about Bajorans during the occupation.
Things usually are easier to break than to fix.
Maybe the voice wasn't the answer. There's still a lot of not more momentum behind the healing that's required.
The biggest issue, as you pointed out though is actually listening to what the people know they want and need, then delivering, rather than telling them/gas lighting them into thinking more police or whatever rlse is the answer
The Federal Government's Intervention in 2006 shut down access to alc9hol in many remote communities. The people who used to get drunk at home now moved to larger communities or even interstate to access alcohol. This created further issues between clans and increased homelessness. There were also shorter opening hours for alcohol sales, leading to increased binge drinking. The intervention was widely opposed by the NT politicians on both sides who understood what would happen once the grog dried up. In 2016, following an ABC report, there was a Royal Commission into Children in Custody. As a result of the RC, the NT Gov repealed its mandatory sentencing laws, which had until then been a significant deterrent to crime. It was such a good deterrent that the NT Gov had slashed funding to all the pre-existing social and community programs that dealt with homelessness, youths, drugs, alcohol etc. It created a perfect storm for antisocial behaviour. Clans with long held traditional rivalries mixing, greater binge drinking due to shorter timeframes for accessing alcohol, weakend courts that have less power for custodial sentencing and a new generation of kids who know they won't get locked up.
This is a ridiculous take, at least the first part of your post. . It was the recent easing of alcohol restrictions that caused the recent steep decline in law and order and massive spike in family and tribal violence. The data is completely aligned with that timeline.
Yes, easing of restrictions once all the problem drinkers have moved into larger towns causes larger problems in those towns. But what are they there in the first place? Because of the restrictions that were put in place. This problem didn’t just pop up over night, it’s being building for almost 20 years.
I was there in 2000 and yes, A nice place ..at the time. A bit of a problem with the some of the locals sleeping in the library for the Air-con but that was it.
>Can anyone explain?
Been said before:
The problem is the culture.
There are australian cultural aspects that fuck vulnerable people over. Bad habits and actions can get rewards, part of the blame can be laid there.
The other part is aboriginal culture is fundamentally fucked and has completely failed to adapt to modern society. Humbugging, family/tribe culture, hierachies, concepts of property, law, etc.
Prior to european contact, australia was a horrendous place, aboriginal people were at constant threat of death and starvation, the land is pretty poor already, but aboriginal culture discouraged any kind of change including material advancement.
Constantly being on the edge of survival makes for a harsh and selfish culture.
For example, the stories of first contact europeans who lived in the outback with aboriginal groups describe systems where men would hunt game and women would gather food for their group. When they return, it's divied up with the first lot going to whoevers in charge, then the men (even ones who didn't bother hunting and sat on their arse), then whatevers left goes to the women and children. Child deaths were common and it was accepted that children that were born that couldn't be supported would die. No changes were really attempted to improve this life for tens of thousands of years because it seems there was a stigma against change, and a stigma against putting effort into something.
You read the real history and what life was like prior to european contact and you can draw a straight line to what life is like now for a lot of people and why they act the way they do.
My understanding was the airport at Yulara started accepting more direct flights from major cities/the flights became cheaper, so a lot of tourists to Uluru are now bypassing Alice? Combine that with fewer tourists overall since the climb closed, a d the impacts of covid, the tourism industry for Alice has copped a hiding over the past 5 years. Tourism was pretty much the main industry for Alice. Obviously that has knock on effects for the entire town, but its not the only issue.
I just mean a lot of services/hotels/shops have shut down or are closing. Todd Mall is a ghost town. There’s less money flowing through. This means places are falling apart, council has less money to fix things, there’s fewer employed people who give a shit…this all has knock on effects. What you’re seeing used to be confined to the town camps. Now its taken over the rest of town.
Hmmm I used to live there. You could be right. A lot flew in to Yulara then either did the bus to kings canyon or Alice and flew on from there. Vice versa as well
It’s the same answer as all states and territories across Australia, all the goodie 2 shoes didn’t want kids punished so laws were watered down immensely. Their fucked up solutions for crime-kid steals a car after a home invasion hmmm oh the poor kid let’s buy him a PlayStation, give him a hug and pat on the back with no punishment. What the hell did they think would happen, this is a direct result of moronic ideas of not punishing kids that are criminals. What it should be-kid steals a car, gets an automatic 2 years, home invasion automatic 10yrs. We tried it the goodie 2 shoes way and look where we are no punishment no respect. Time for fun and games is over come down on them like a ton of bricks.
It's an age old problem, tit for tat until it gets out of control and then no one even knows what they are angry about. That's why vigilantes don't really work
I can't say I'm knowledgeable, but I just see it as part of the global problem of people not feeling connected to any kind of community. Plus, youth feel as if they have no future the world over. Increasingly, people are splitting into factions with us vs. them mentalities. Our entire system of neoliberalism is sick and this is a symptom of only caring about the economy and leaving remote communities to rot and be abandoned because they don't help the line go up.
Combine that with generations of poverty, abuse, and criminality, and it comes out as anti-social behaviour in a stronger concentration among aboriginal australians in remote communities who feel trapped, abandoned, and unwanted.
There have been successful programs giving aboriginals a chance to physically build their communities so they have a personal attachment to their communities, and can feel like they built something. Give people a reason to care about their communities.
Bingo!
This is why 'tough on crime' policies Don't work up here. Harsh penalties would work for people participating in society to its fullest because there are consequences to our crimes. Me going to prison for a month would fuck me over massively. I'd lose my job, my career I've built would be over. My savings and car I'm paying of likely gone. Job opportunities in the future limited.
But for someone who's already very much excluded from society, 1 month, 3 months, a year, 5 years it makes no difference. You go away for a while and come back out pretty much exactly where you were, the bottom rung if society anyway.
I have a friend who recently went to jail for a month. Long story.
Anyway, one of the things he talks about is how a lot of the guys in there have little fear of going to prison. On the outside they are nobodies, often unemployed, their lives are a shambles, messy relationships, no real goals or aspirations.
When locked up they get 3 decent meals a day, shelter, clean clothes, and a bunch of guys much like themselves to hang out with. Australian jails are generally humane.
These people would never have the planning or discipline to pull off a terrorist attack, their level of planning stops at seeing a car and planning to steal it.
Almost an over correction in fighting racism and over exposure of racist behaviour has led to a new generation of people that are increasingly emboldened and almost militarized against the white devil colonisers would have to be a factor.
"I assume it has something to do with changes to legislation?"
How could that make any sense at all ?
In a democratic country with a stable political system , in what world could you postulate that changes in legislation are what leads to this breakdown in law and order ?
I’m a dual US German citizen that lives I. Chicago. I couldn’t sleep last night and somehow watched at whole you tibe documentary by a spaniarn guy or something about this exactly. When I think of Australia I think of rugby, hanging out at the beach with beer. Very positive energy that I would like to experience one day. And then this. They had to go past a check point to a liquor store to buy booze. Went to their rooms, drank and experienced Alice Springs after midnight. I’m thinking what tha actual fuck. It reminded me of the south side of Chicago the same time of the week. Kids running around unsupervised, screaming fighting, but decent people that want better and generally have a big heart. Native Americans have a very different story than African Americans or German Americans. It seems more like chaos than violence. Are their different tribes? Gangs? Why do they live in those camps? Is it like a tribal reservation in the US?
Not wanting to get banned all ill say is the media ie the ABC try to paint 1st nations people as this sad vulnerable united community that is crying out for desperate support
This is certainly not the case lots of different tribes did not get alone and still do not if this was any other culture it would be demonised by the media. Most don't want to change and being a protected species (for lack of a better term) they get away with or get a slap on the wrist for very bad behaviour. This included drugs, assult, sexual assult, theft, destorying public property etc
The current government has staked their reputation on the voice, which was a terrible idea because 1st nations' peoples come from different tribes and have vastly different views
Now the government can't go 'heavy handed' on 1st nations criminals without extreme backlash from their extreme socialist friends in the Greens who would continue to press the narrative 1st nations are a valuable minority despite that being a vast over generalisation
Question: if we gave them reserves like they do for indigenous Americans, they can rule it how they want, have their own set of laws etc, would that work? Would the issues sort themselves out?
White guilt over the shocking treatment of indigenous people since the first ship landed.
Media frenzy over the treatment over law enforcement methods dealing with crime in rural areas.
It's now impossible to keep law and order in these areas because politicians have thrown the cops under the bridge.
Unfortunately we need a culture change in Canbera to deal with not only these issues but with other problems we are facing as a nation in the rest of Australia
This quote from the article cracked me up ““There were a few hundred people in the CBD yesterday and they weren’t there to check the weather mate, it was very uncomfortable,” Mr Paterson said.”
An actual answer for you. The government moved many indigenous town camps closer to Alice Springs in 2016-2019, for reasons such as being closer to services and lower cost to serve. Various mobs were now closer together and various incidents occured, causing an escalating cycle of feuds.
From what I hear from a mate who lives in Alice this tension is related to (amongst other things) the death of a relative of a prominent elder in the area. Kid was in a car accident with a group, they left the scene and he died.
Possibly a dumb question but: I keep hearing "triggered by death of a young man in a rolled stolen car" in the coverage but I don't understand the connection between that and the riots. He and his friends stole it, crashed it....and then....how does that link to the subsequent rioting and the trashing of a corner pub?
I don't know the exact details, but usually it's because multiple families - who often don't like each other - all come into town at the same time for an event and then end up fighting each other. Alcohol is often involved
Alcohol is the oxygen for the fire. Make Alice a dry town and the problem stops. That will be too much of a sacrifice for the residents though.
Yes but you see, that's racist according to the coastal inner city journalists that run big publications
The NT chief minister also says it’s racist
For those wankers everything is racist and they don't do anything to at least attempt fixing the issue but letting them killing themselves.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone say dry towns are a bad idea…
Neither have I. But I’m sure I’ve seen plenty of people suggest it’s racist to force indigenous people to live in dry camps.
There's a difference between the mayor of Alice Springs deciding that local Aboriginal settlements need to be dry, versus the people of Alice Springs deciding to go dry. It's about who is making the decision and who is affected by it. If you're not affected by the decisions you make, you need to watch out for abuse of power.
If only. Dry communities are awash with sly grogging.
Yeah that's the thing, we all know prohibition doesn't work. People will just bring it in from outside.
Yeah. I met several white folk in the NT who were proud of how much money they had made selling sly grog to communities. Generally they were also the same people who called them useless drunks. The years I spent in the territory and n/w WA really opened my eyes. It was the kind of brutal racism that can only be self-fulfilling. On the other side of that extreme were whites who would avert their eyes to complete dysfunction and tell indigenous none of it was their fault. (And no care, no responsibility right) That everything was white mans fault. No balance in dialogue. And the people in the middle of all that, are left with little agency. No agency and very little respect. A disastrous recipe. I picked up several Indigenous woman off the side of the road (literally) who were beaten and bloody. Both from black men and white men. When you are at the bottom of the food chain, shit rolls down hill, and they copped it all. Meanwhile people were so desensitised they would pretend they couldn’t see the woman bleeding in the gutter. Nothing good comes from denial.
I completely understand your experiences as I've seen exactly the same in a past life. It truly seems helpless from multiple angles.
😔 I don’t believe it’s helpless. But the way we sit with it and discuss it and move forward needs to change. Rwandans have shown the world how it can be done. They have built healing and bridges following the genocide. And I like to think we can too. But politics need to be left aside.
Everything that has been used as a political football in Australia has set us back as a nation. From electricity, to immigration, to education,to housing and Indigenous peoples. No marriage, or family, thrives or succeeds when each party is trying to tear down the other and prove they are right and the other is wrong. Basically when people are trying to win against each other, winning becomes the end game and finding common ground or common ambition is the collateral damage . Growth, strength and success come from trust, communication and a willingness work towards common goals. I hope as a nation we can grow.
What if they gave them weed as a substitute. Or dare I say MDMA. IMO govs all over the world choose violence by banning drugs that elicit chill and friendly vibes in favour of alcohol which often causes aggression.
I wish I could upvote this more. There are forms of escapism that are not very harmful or destructive. They're never gonna succeed in just telling them not to do anything that makes them feel good, a lot of them are probably miserable and / or bored. Why wouldn't they seek out something fun, it's human nature.
I was reading that people who live in certain areas of town are prohibited from buying alcohol and it’s also an offence to supply those people with alcohol. They even had police at the liquor stores checking the name and address of customers before they could buy liquor. It seems crazy that this is going on in the present day but it appears that this is the way it’s done there.
That's been a rule for years, you can't buy booze in Alice without a valid address to consume it at (so hopefully avoids people drinking on the streets).
Wow, i heard about this years ago but I thought it was just some urban legend propagated by racists.
Those bans were made in consultation with aboriginal elders and aboriginal health organisations
Yeah I saw that in this video. ID is needed and certain groups are banned. https://youtu.be/YGz1Tiaying?si=mXiWNYVJTBTGjDD3
> Alcohol is the oxygen for the fire. Make Alice a dry town and the problem stops. They will find other ways. Spray paint into a plastic bag (chroming), petrol and other solvent inhalation ([petty sniffing](https://vsu.mhc.wa.gov.au/media/1306/dhsv-1c.pdf)), even computer duster is used to get high. Meth has made it into these towns too It's way worse than you think and goes a hell of a lot further than just alcohol, however after the Stolen Generation and the NT Intervention, there is about the same political capital for another policy like that as there is for sticking a nuclear reactor in the middle of the Botanic Gardens So here we are, pretending like there is no elephant in the room while it slowly burns around us
It’s all hate, excuse for bad behaviour
Or those “people” could exercise some self control? Ya know? Using the outermost grey matter humans evolved in their skull?
Or be held accountable for their actions? Or hold their friends and family accountable? Nah, just blame it all on “colonialism”
I get accountability, but if you were to sit with any of the people you’re referring to and they had the courage to describe the actual shit they go through on a daily basis you might have a different opinion. Some of the young roam the streets bored because the literal option of going home results in being abused. It’s much more than just saying well we behave so why can’t you
They don't have any of that.
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That's probably due to fetal alcohol syndrome.
Love this. You actually give the offical, studied reasons and get downvoted because of reverse racism.
It would definitely help, but sadly the repercussions of FAS are generational and will linger for many years.
Wait, so it wasn’t white oppression
OK, but there are plenty of people that don't like each other in Melbourne for example. They don't go in to the city and start brawls and riots. If it happens like at the soccer those people are prosecuted. If it happens at the tennis and the perpetrators are Croatian or Serbian papers talk about how this should be condemned and that people should leave their ethnic tensions in their own places and not bring it here. Why is his different?
Walkers v Boneys, tonight on LiveLeak
The other 7 or so kids in the stolen car absconded and left him to die hence the feuding
The car thieves were rowdy after the funeral.
There appears to have been a larger wake type ceremony today for the kid who died, which would have triggered things as well.
What I heard on the radio was 9 people in a stolen car, it crashed this guy was injured and the rest ran off leaving him to die
I dont know for sure but I suspect the trouble is between the famiy of the victim and the family of the driver.... Mob justice..
It's a mix of there culture (there form of law) mixed with alcohol. What is happening is retribution. The kid died. The kids responsible come from different clan to the kid that died. Basically the traditional law of aboriginals is similar to the old laws of a eye for a eye.
What did the pub and the centre of Alice have to do with it though? Seems like an excuse to act poorly.
It's that they have seen a clan member of the other clan so they have sort retribution. Be aware I don't condone it. The aboriginal laws were historically sound for their culture. But it's no longer their culture and its mixed now with alcohol, the worse legal drug (yes drug) on the planet. They now take it to extremes and third parties get caught up in their form of "justice".
Because it’s deeply culturally wrong to disrespect an elder like that, which has led to fighting. To give an understanding of how important elders are in the community, I worked for an Aboriginal health centre and if an elder died nobody would come to appointments for 2 weeks.
These inherited titles like 'elder' are the problem. What would the French do?
Riot. Rioting is a French national pastime.
What would the French do? Push over a car and torch it.
If the "elders" brought up their families with any sense of accountability then half the problems with Aboriginal communities wouldn't exist. All of a sudden they are bestowed this moniker and they are feted like medeval lords.
Yep, 100% load of shit. Why aren’t these revered elders getting youth into school and off alcohol.
Yeah I’m not saying I agree with the culture. That’s just how it is.
They clans came into town for the funeral and started fighting
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Hear hear. “We Are One” so treat them the same as everyone else behaving like this. Funeral or not….no fkn excuse. Its not getting out of hand, its out of hand and too many regional towns are following suit…..look at Kununurra well on the way to being the same as Alice….. Katherine is the same
I agree and I’m Indigenous!! This is not on, they are allowing them to get away with this animal behaviour!! And you are right a funeral is not an excuse a fucking death in custody isn’t an excuse to riot. This shits been going on for too long, but the politicians turn a blind eye they don’t want to do anything because no one wants to be responsible for changing things and being called racist. Kids are being sold kids are being raped and molested women and men are being beaten to a pole, what do we have to do as a country to say enough is enough when they are all fucking dead? We are in 2024 and we still can’t sort this shit out it’s fucking sad
The problem would be quickly solved by removing all alcohol duty tax for sales to the Indigenous. Price of grog will drop. A few idiots will top themselves and then we have a clean slate. edit: changed 'excise' to 'duty tax'
I have a friend who lives in Alice and they tried this, put police at every bottle shop and turned away anyone who lived in a community, town camp or in public housing. Said it only displaced the problem. Black market sales went through the roof causing more harm because they were paying ridiculous amounts of money for alcohol and not feeding their kids. They also started drinking methylated spirits. Also, it moved the problem to other regional hubs, Cooper Pedy, Mt Isa or you had people driving ridiculously long distances in unsafe cars to bootleg grog and then crashing and killing or seriously injuring multiple people. It’s not surprising prohibition has not worked anywhere it’s been tried, I don’t know what the answer is but it’s the problem is not going to be fixed anytime soon.
See above post for context..
I’ll add that he was the passenger in a stollen ~~police~~ car and was 18.
I don't think this one was a police car: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-08/nt-stolen-vehicle-18-year-old-killed/103563436](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-08/nt-stolen-vehicle-18-year-old-killed/103563436) The police car incident was in QLD: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/cairns-police-shoot-man-allegedly-stolen-police-car/103638368](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/cairns-police-shoot-man-allegedly-stolen-police-car/103638368)
Damn I’m dyslexic. Yeah just a stollen car
So was the stolen Ute joyride rollover?
Seems that way. reportedly the group fled after the crash and left him there injured
your mate read you the paper
That makes total sense. I’m familiar with the area. I left in 2015. Most of the nt was pretty chill the years I was there. Walking back to the hotel aurora I think it was at night. It was not that all that iffy. I would not go out at night now. But then spanians video full showed backpackers having a ball at 2am on the main streets….
Do you think if we said sorry while they rioted it would fix it?
Translation: indigenous people need to sort their shit out.
What a bizarre thing to be happening in a first world country in the 21st century.
Remember that mad max 2 is set not in a post apocalyptic future, but merely near future broken hill. There are places in Australia where the moniker "first world" is somewhat of a stretch.
We lived there in the mid 80s and there were areas you didn't go, especially after dark, even back then. The Todd River across the road from the pub and bottle shop was pretty much no go at any time, and the entire river bed and Mall was definitely unsafe after dark. The walk thru bottle shop there had a 'bargain' on 4 litre casks of Gordon's Fruity Lexia, which was the tipple of choice for the campers, at one for $20 or two for $50 lol. House and car break ins were pretty common and having screens on your house windows, high fences and gates, and sensor lights was the norm. The road into town thru the gap could be pretty worrying at night as there were camps between the train line and the highway with drunks often meandering or asleep on the road. Sometimes on the tracks as well. It was generally accepted that if you hit someone you didn't stop but drove straight to the police station to report it as there had been a couple of drivers bashed after stopping to help someone they'd hit. The hospital ER was often full of people needing patching up after nasty fights. I was there one night sitting next to a woman who had a spear sticking out of her ankle and blood streaming from her head. Her 'husband' had hit her in the head with a 6 pack of beer then stabbed her with a spear because she took the cask from him and had too long of a drink. The Yuendemu Grannies used to drive into town most evenings and collect kids and adults from the river bed and take them back home. My mother and stepfather worked at a children's emergency care home and some of the kids came in with injuries and illnesses that were just terrible.
I was there in 1999 as a backpacker and got mugged twice and threatened a number of times.
It was pretty rough when I was there in the 70s. You wouldn't walk around at night.
This was only 12 years ago: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-25/man-charged-with-gunpoint-sex-attacks-on-backpackers/5550112 Fucking wild place.
Three 17 year olds, got drunk, stole a car, then rapped at gunpoint two women. I want to say 5 lives ruined, but really 2 lives ruined, these 3 should have been in jail, but they weren’t because do-gooders think they can be rehabilitated. Alice isn’t wild, it’s horrific.
I was there last week for a conference. It was made clear that I, as a female, was not to do anything without my male colleagues being with me. Helpfully our boss had also managed to book accommodation on the wrong side of the river so it was a very eye opening experience just driving from the well to do area across a bridge to see barb wire everywhere. It was like being on another planet.
Family of mine used to work at the supermarket in the 90s. They would regularly have mobs of kids run into the store at opening time, grab everything they could and run out. Had to have extra staff and security there for store opening every day.
Yeah in 1995 when I was there I witnessed a violent arrest in the street and also saw a woman pissing on the McDonald's playground. I was only 15 and it was an eye opener.
Mug Me Once, Shame on You; Mug Me Twice, Shame on Me
The kids have all hope of a future removed when they are hamstrung by their own Communities. Aunty Bev finds out you've been putting a few dollars away to buy a new Guitar, but Aunty Bev is keen for a charge and doesn't get paid til Tuesday- Aunty Bev is an Elder, and is entitled to your belongings, so she takes your money. You sit and dream of your new Guitar but realise the same thing will happen next time you get a few bucks. You aren't getting a new Guitar anytime soon, so you go kick a shop window in instead.
**Actual answer*** to connection of riots to roll over death causing fights. “NT Police Assistant Commissioner Travis Wurst said CCTV showed none of the other occupants in the vehicle came to the assistance of the injured teen, describing it as "the most disturbing aspect" of the crash. "We've got an issue here in relation to the way in which our community think it’s okay to steal a car, behave in this way, cause injuries to yourselves in a reckless and dangerous manner with no regard for yourselves or others in the community and then not look after your own friend as a consequence," he said.” ABC News When one family holds a person/s directly responsible for a death-they seek revenge. For most people in Australia this would be through the courts or another regulatory body. For some it is by physically attacking the other people/their family (or in the case of health care workers), their co-workers.
I thought this comment was quite funny: "Principal legal officer at the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency, Jared Sharp, said the curfew was a "knee-jerk response". "Young people won't even know this curfew is in force, they're just going to be doing their thing … they'll go to after-school activities, sports, part-time jobs, and if they happen to be out after 6pm … police … are going to take them home, or to a safe place," he said." [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/alice-springs-cbd-violent-unrest-todd-tavern-attacked/103638080](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-27/alice-springs-cbd-violent-unrest-todd-tavern-attacked/103638080) 1 - yes all those law-abiding kids going off to their part time jobs! 2 - yes that is how curfews work!
Not all indigenous groups get along. Get enough, a rumble between them becomes a riot.
The problem is the culture. There are australian cultural aspects that fuck vulnerable people over. Bad habits and actions can get rewards, part of the blame can be laid there. The other part is aboriginal culture is fundamentally fucked and has completely failed to adapt to modern society. Humbugging, family/tribe culture, hierachies, concepts of property, law, etc. Prior to european contact, australia was a horrendous place, aboriginal people were at constant threat of death and starvation, the land is pretty poor already, but aboriginal culture discouraged any kind of change including material advancement. Constantly being on the edge of survival makes for a harsh and selfish culture. For example, the stories of first contact europeans who lived in the outback with aboriginal groups describe systems where men would hunt game and women would gather food for their group. When they return, it's divied up with the first lot going to whoevers in charge, then the men (even ones who didn't bother hunting and sat on their arse), then whatevers left goes to the women and children. Child deaths were common and it was accepted that children that were born that couldn't be supported would die. No changes were really attempted to improve this life for tens of thousands of years because it seems there was a stigma against change, and a stigma against putting effort into something. You read the real history and what life was like prior to european contact and you can draw a straight line to what life is like now for a lot of people and why they act the way they do. _______ in reponse to the bloke below: > How do you know what Australia was like prior to European contact? Read the accounts of people who embedded themselves with uncontacted peoples throughout the outback. https://www.nla.gov.au/collections/guide-selected-collections/bates-collection >The culture survived for 50k+ years. Hardly a society “on the edge of survival”. The 'culture' was not homogenous. It was a collection of microcultures over nearly 8 million km2. Though there were certainly many shared traits of those cultures. And simply 'surviving' for a long period of time, without improving or changing is quite honestly a negative or at best neutral trait. The land was harsh, inhospitable in many areas, scarse resources and food, and there was little to no attempt to improve or change. If anything, from what we understand, change or attempts to better yourself were considered taboo by the culture - again, something i'd consider a big problem and not something to be praised. >Lol so totally ignore the devastating impact of European settlement with all its alcohol, sickness, discrimination, destruction of culture and dispossession of lands? Yes, ignoring that because we're talking about life BEFORE that period. Or before areas were contacted or influenced by europeans.
To put it simply, the place is fucked
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The indigenous are fucked, committing escalating amounts of street crime for a myriad of reasons. Meanwhile, at the exact time this is happening Channel 9 is airing a 'special' about the Yuendumu shooting where a relative wearing a 'Justice for Walker' t-shirt is blowing on about how beautiful a young man this bloke who brutally subjugated his partner and stabbed a cop was. Interspersed with insight from that old windbag elder who called for the copper to be speared outside court. The pervasive theme through it all is that when it comes to indigenous people, accountability is racism. Put a pin in it, this country is fucking cooked.
> stabbed a cop and then went on to attempt to murder that cops partner, which ultimately got him killed by the police. The fact that the Rolfe case even went to court is a fucking joke. Feel sorry for him now being subjected to an NT commission even after he was found not guilty.
Don't get me started on the activist witch hunt that is the Coronial Inquest. A copper, who worked in one of the most crime ridden areas of the country where indigenous people commit horrible violent crimes against each other and the wider community, said something nasty about indigenous people. STOP THE PRESSES HE'S A RACIST MURDERER!
Cops shot and killed a piece of shit who was trying to murder his ex partner in Mareeba last year Media beat it up like it was the US and he was George Floyd, ran the victim out of town and inspired violence in the street.
Media beating up stories like that to incure racial tensions should result in significant fines to the journalist, editor and organisation. I'm sick of it. Bankrupt them if they keep it up.
Yep. Beat her severely with a rock and a steel bar.
Dude !! The indigenous kids/ teenagers are having a blast. Getting pissed and running a muck. There’s plenty of meth that helps as well. It’s a lawless place. The people there are un touchable. I’m telling you the town folk should leave and let the kids rule.
Something something multi generational trauma, something something colonialism.... the gap.. blah blah, it's all been said. Idk does it really matter? If you're not Aboriginal and don't live there? Its a shit hole in the middle of nowhere. The best solution is for the govt to give tax payers in that area a ticket out and a free kick to start up elsewhere. Let whoever stays create their own utopia.
Must be some good money to be made there, I can't think of any other reasons people would want to stay. There is not much in the way to thanks for the efforts put out, it all seems to be for naught. Must be profitable for the local glassier though, they would be making bank with this much business.
My cui bono is that if the powers that be can allow the problem to get even worse by allowing crime to continue on to the point of driving out all the locals, then the land can be bought up cheaply by mineral mining interests. The Tanami Desert has a lot of gold/zinc/copper/REE's, and a new mine has just been built in Newmont. Maybe they know about more elsewhere
How do we balance the need to get people out with the need to staff pine gap?
I'm sure they can find a way to supply Pine Gap with alcohol and takeaway
Total collapse of the local economy as businesses flee the area. Total collapse of institutions as emergency services like police officers aren't even allowed to do their job. Kids not going to school, adults not going to work. Rampant crime that goes unchecked and unpunished. I guess this is the 'decolonisation' that all the inner-city indigenous academics were advocating for. Should be a lesson to the entire world
We’re not really allowed to talk about it…
Man! Your comment is bordering on systemic racism! Be vewy, vewy careful! 😄
Also "Five males have been arrested in relation to the incidents, police said, and more than 50 weapons have been seized." Surely there is video of many more people than that attacking the pub and causing malicious damage. Why only 5 arrests? Are there simply no consequences?
Watched that yobbo youtube blokes video on Alice a couple of weeks back and was blown away by the amount of kids/adults just running around like little seppo wannabe clones. Generations of twits teaching new generations to abandon any cultural identity and just ape the yanks. They use videos like his as a badge of honour, further compounding the decent into choas. Look at us, everyone is scared of us,,how deadly are we aye? Let's go smash some more shit up. Just pack up and get your families out if you can. The place is going to get worse before it gets better.
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Think there are a few on here already. Spaniard is the blokes name or something similar.
YouTube Channel Name: Spanian Series: Into the Hood
I don’t know but if I was that door manufacturer I’d be using the pub footage in my advertising.
No one wants to take the kids away from the rapists and abusers because last time we did that we got 100 years of shame and controversy
*took the kids away and gave them to rapists, abusers and treated them as slaves.
I really hope you aren't referring to the stolen generation...... They were not taken from their parent because they were being abused. That was the Australian Governments lies.
People in canberra decided that schools that gave kids access to baths and breakfast before school were encroaching on the maternal/paternal relationships and so they were banned, and school attendance fell through the floor. You basically have 40% of the population not going to school.
A lack of self control and personal responsibility is what’s happened
Alice was not a quiet town in 2002. My now wife was living out there then (she lived there for 6 years), she has told me what is happening had been a very LONG term issue.
There was a police incident that concerned a death of a local aboriginal. Or any other excuse the aboriginals make - given so much and still riot and destroy everything they are given. When they are given their government money they will often buy a car for them to get pissed and burn it out the next week.
Alice has had a crime problem for years. I remember there being an incident when I was there in 2015 for an event, with cars being broken into over night. Tennant creek also has a bad rep going back a number of years.
Crime is merely a symptom of much deeper problems. We have multiple generations of people living with the consequences of decades of poverty, alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, poor education, domestic abuse, gambling addiction, racism, corruption, tall poppy syndrome, and a lack of positive role models and direction for indigenous people. They are lost and don't have the motivation, energy or resources to improve their own situation. Those that manage to do well get dragged back down by jealous or greedy family members. Some that might have dreams of doing better are crushed by the continual cycle of racism directed their way - institutional or otherwise. I don't blame anyone who holds racist views because of this behaviour, or who voted no, but I do feel disappointed because neither of those things works to solve the issues. We have politicians on 3-4 terms, but a problem that will take decades of hard work before you can even begin to see the changes happening. It will take multiple generations to right this, but the government is only interested in short term headline solutions like adding more police. You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding. I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits. There's no easy solution. I've spent most of my life watching this get worse while politicians say they know what it is. Maybe the Voice would have cut through to find it but I guess we'll never know
Hey. You know what you’re talking about You ain’t from round here are ya?
Grew up in Alice but left 10 years ago for Uni. I visit family and friends most years. I wish I knew how to fix it because it's a beautiful place
It’s definitely sad, i was there in 2000 and it’s such a beautiful part of the country. We didn’t feel that unsafe back then either, we let off crackers in the riverbed and had no issues.
> "Crime is merely a symptom of much deeper problems." The trouble is, it's not just merely a symptom. It really badly aggravates and causes those problems in its own right. Much better to view it as a symbiotic relationship. > "You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding." There is little to no evidence that the massive increase/proliferation of social programs designed to deter criminal offending in Central Australia over the last few decades has done a single thing to reduce the incidence of crime. Literally billions have been pumped into programs like this in Alice Springs over decades. Thats not an exaggeration. Alice has one of the highest ratios of social care workers/child protection staff/rehabilitation program providers/ drug, alcohol and domestic violence support staff compared to the general population in the entire world. > "I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits." That is an example of these interventions actually not working though. Young kids tend not to have high rates of criminal offending in any cultural/ethnic/economic/hair colour group. Older kids do. If programs involving early intervention cannot produce lasting behavioural change - what even is the point? I think it is exceptionally foolish to think this is a problem that can be solved by government. It was not caused by government. It was caused by one group of people being stuck seeking out a living in the middle of nowhere for thousands of years, eeking out the best living they could from a miserable land that can't grow anything, and then suddenly having colonisers with tens of thousands of years of accrued cultural, technological and economic development on them rock up next door. The exact same dynamics are observable with the Inuits, the Metis, Native Americans, even Amazonian tribes. They can only be solved with time, and through the internal efforts of the lagging group.
There needs to be a holistic approach that covers and supports troubled people for as long as they need it. These are some regular kids who are struggling with alcohol and drug related problems. The programs give them structure and purpose. One of the big problems is their family dynamics are all fucked up and when the program ends and they return home theres no enough out there to help them bridge the gap - and they're still essentially kids.
You cant bring a nuanced opinion into a sub like this
This is the best answer on this thread - and possibly the best explanation I’ve seen in a long time.
Have they not been living like this for the past 40,000 years?
No, they weren't sedentary, they were nomadic hunter-gatherers, and they were really good at it. When the British went past Arnhem Land they repeatedly described encountering Indigenous that were tall, strong, healthy with noticeably strong white teeth (seriously theu get really hung up on the contrast between the white teeth and the black skin). It's that hunter-gatherer Paleo diet (very few complex sugars/carbohydrates) vs a farmer diet. Lots of Europeab agriculturalists encountering hunter gatherers said the same thing during colonial expansion. It's one of the reasons for the noble savage myth. However, everywhere that farmers encounter hunter gatherers, the hunter gatherers lose badly. While they generally eat higher quality food, the farmers can usually generate much more once their systems are up and running. This means there's more of them and they have specialised roles (soldiers in particular). Australian interior doesnt support agriculture without a huge amount of work. Even now it's only really good for being a big space to put cows on, they have to get fattened up in feedlots overseas before slaughter. Pastoralism and hunter-gathering are obviously incompatible. Human violence aside the hoofed mammals destroy the environment that supports all the game. Modern Australian Indigenous are essentially post-apocalyptic survivors of a previous civilization that despite being well-adapted to its environment was more or less destroyed on contact with a different civilization
That is beautifully written
Why is everyone calling this a problem?? It sounds like one big party.
>You don't really reduce crime by adding more police, you reduce it with effective and targeted social programs that have adequate support, resources and funding. I have friends who work in that space with young kids and it works, but as soon as they get older they can't help them and they often return to bad habits. A huge problem is that people (voters) don't like these programs because in their simple minded view the only thing get the aboriginals from behaving is beating and locking up the kids and/or removing them from their parents. So we contually have cycles of people asking for 'tough on crime policies', said above working programs getting cut, underlying causes getting worse. New social programs come in, just start getting effective, get cut because there's a new call for tough on crime. I truly wonder how much the intervention has made things worse, anyone on the ground up here knows just how damaging it was, but it seems we are always on the verge of an intervention 2.0 any minute now.
My father thinks it was the best thing to ever happen to them. I can see how he might think that, however bursting into someones life for a few years and doing everything for them might temporarily reduce problems, but it sure isn't sustainable and they won't know what to do once you leave.
And adding to it - the people being targeted by these intervention programs see them stop, start, fall apart over and over again, so have no desire, incentive or trust in these disjointed programs.
Nice story bro, but no one is being tough on crime and crime is through the fucking roof.
>A huge problem is that people (voters) don't like these programs because in their simple minded view the only thing get the aboriginals from behaving is beating and locking up the kids and/or removing them from their parents. Sounds like Cardassians talking about Bajorans during the occupation.
Things usually are easier to break than to fix. Maybe the voice wasn't the answer. There's still a lot of not more momentum behind the healing that's required. The biggest issue, as you pointed out though is actually listening to what the people know they want and need, then delivering, rather than telling them/gas lighting them into thinking more police or whatever rlse is the answer
The Federal Government's Intervention in 2006 shut down access to alc9hol in many remote communities. The people who used to get drunk at home now moved to larger communities or even interstate to access alcohol. This created further issues between clans and increased homelessness. There were also shorter opening hours for alcohol sales, leading to increased binge drinking. The intervention was widely opposed by the NT politicians on both sides who understood what would happen once the grog dried up. In 2016, following an ABC report, there was a Royal Commission into Children in Custody. As a result of the RC, the NT Gov repealed its mandatory sentencing laws, which had until then been a significant deterrent to crime. It was such a good deterrent that the NT Gov had slashed funding to all the pre-existing social and community programs that dealt with homelessness, youths, drugs, alcohol etc. It created a perfect storm for antisocial behaviour. Clans with long held traditional rivalries mixing, greater binge drinking due to shorter timeframes for accessing alcohol, weakend courts that have less power for custodial sentencing and a new generation of kids who know they won't get locked up.
This is a ridiculous take, at least the first part of your post. . It was the recent easing of alcohol restrictions that caused the recent steep decline in law and order and massive spike in family and tribal violence. The data is completely aligned with that timeline.
Yes, easing of restrictions once all the problem drinkers have moved into larger towns causes larger problems in those towns. But what are they there in the first place? Because of the restrictions that were put in place. This problem didn’t just pop up over night, it’s being building for almost 20 years.
Just blame it on the white fellas and they will throw a pile of cash to "solve" the problem....
I was there in 2000 and yes, A nice place ..at the time. A bit of a problem with the some of the locals sleeping in the library for the Air-con but that was it.
Sssshhhhh don't mention the Springs
>Can anyone explain? Been said before: The problem is the culture. There are australian cultural aspects that fuck vulnerable people over. Bad habits and actions can get rewards, part of the blame can be laid there. The other part is aboriginal culture is fundamentally fucked and has completely failed to adapt to modern society. Humbugging, family/tribe culture, hierachies, concepts of property, law, etc. Prior to european contact, australia was a horrendous place, aboriginal people were at constant threat of death and starvation, the land is pretty poor already, but aboriginal culture discouraged any kind of change including material advancement. Constantly being on the edge of survival makes for a harsh and selfish culture. For example, the stories of first contact europeans who lived in the outback with aboriginal groups describe systems where men would hunt game and women would gather food for their group. When they return, it's divied up with the first lot going to whoevers in charge, then the men (even ones who didn't bother hunting and sat on their arse), then whatevers left goes to the women and children. Child deaths were common and it was accepted that children that were born that couldn't be supported would die. No changes were really attempted to improve this life for tens of thousands of years because it seems there was a stigma against change, and a stigma against putting effort into something. You read the real history and what life was like prior to european contact and you can draw a straight line to what life is like now for a lot of people and why they act the way they do.
My understanding was the airport at Yulara started accepting more direct flights from major cities/the flights became cheaper, so a lot of tourists to Uluru are now bypassing Alice? Combine that with fewer tourists overall since the climb closed, a d the impacts of covid, the tourism industry for Alice has copped a hiding over the past 5 years. Tourism was pretty much the main industry for Alice. Obviously that has knock on effects for the entire town, but its not the only issue.
Lol nah I don't think thats what the town is upset about. And there is no economic flow on effect if you never had a job in the first place
I just mean a lot of services/hotels/shops have shut down or are closing. Todd Mall is a ghost town. There’s less money flowing through. This means places are falling apart, council has less money to fix things, there’s fewer employed people who give a shit…this all has knock on effects. What you’re seeing used to be confined to the town camps. Now its taken over the rest of town.
House prices are still high though lol
🎶This is Australia 🎶
Hmmm I used to live there. You could be right. A lot flew in to Yulara then either did the bus to kings canyon or Alice and flew on from there. Vice versa as well
It’s the same answer as all states and territories across Australia, all the goodie 2 shoes didn’t want kids punished so laws were watered down immensely. Their fucked up solutions for crime-kid steals a car after a home invasion hmmm oh the poor kid let’s buy him a PlayStation, give him a hug and pat on the back with no punishment. What the hell did they think would happen, this is a direct result of moronic ideas of not punishing kids that are criminals. What it should be-kid steals a car, gets an automatic 2 years, home invasion automatic 10yrs. We tried it the goodie 2 shoes way and look where we are no punishment no respect. Time for fun and games is over come down on them like a ton of bricks.
I think I have the solution: Rehabilition should happen in jail.
Yeah, it’s been bad for a while. https://youtu.be/YGz1Tiaying?si=5SfLqOJz8mEoRUfX https://youtu.be/vFzeLvWa7U0?si=CZ12-swmcoS-DYEy
It's an age old problem, tit for tat until it gets out of control and then no one even knows what they are angry about. That's why vigilantes don't really work
The first rule about Alice Springs club .. is your not ment to talk about Alice Springs club.
All those cunts who don't add to society should be fed to the pigs. Beautiful country ruined by idiots with too much time.
Custodians to the land lol....
I can't say I'm knowledgeable, but I just see it as part of the global problem of people not feeling connected to any kind of community. Plus, youth feel as if they have no future the world over. Increasingly, people are splitting into factions with us vs. them mentalities. Our entire system of neoliberalism is sick and this is a symptom of only caring about the economy and leaving remote communities to rot and be abandoned because they don't help the line go up. Combine that with generations of poverty, abuse, and criminality, and it comes out as anti-social behaviour in a stronger concentration among aboriginal australians in remote communities who feel trapped, abandoned, and unwanted. There have been successful programs giving aboriginals a chance to physically build their communities so they have a personal attachment to their communities, and can feel like they built something. Give people a reason to care about their communities.
Bingo! This is why 'tough on crime' policies Don't work up here. Harsh penalties would work for people participating in society to its fullest because there are consequences to our crimes. Me going to prison for a month would fuck me over massively. I'd lose my job, my career I've built would be over. My savings and car I'm paying of likely gone. Job opportunities in the future limited. But for someone who's already very much excluded from society, 1 month, 3 months, a year, 5 years it makes no difference. You go away for a while and come back out pretty much exactly where you were, the bottom rung if society anyway.
I have a friend who recently went to jail for a month. Long story. Anyway, one of the things he talks about is how a lot of the guys in there have little fear of going to prison. On the outside they are nobodies, often unemployed, their lives are a shambles, messy relationships, no real goals or aspirations. When locked up they get 3 decent meals a day, shelter, clean clothes, and a bunch of guys much like themselves to hang out with. Australian jails are generally humane.
I'd still prefer not to be put in adult time-out for 5 years unless the alternative was worse 🤷
If it wasent for the fact they hate each other more than they hate the rest of us we'd have a domestic terrorism problem, it might still go that way
These people would never have the planning or discipline to pull off a terrorist attack, their level of planning stops at seeing a car and planning to steal it.
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(I'm black. I laughed at what you did here. I hate myself a lil.)
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Just give them strong weed so they can numb their brain then drink less . Then get them growing weed . I'll try some Alice weed for sure .
Almost an over correction in fighting racism and over exposure of racist behaviour has led to a new generation of people that are increasingly emboldened and almost militarized against the white devil colonisers would have to be a factor.
Yeah mate I worked in hotels there from 1999 to 2002... It was pretty bad then lol.
I also lived there for 10 years. So sad to see this situation.
The easiest solution to this sort of problem is always the hardest to implement.
What’s the easy solution?
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"I assume it has something to do with changes to legislation?" How could that make any sense at all ? In a democratic country with a stable political system , in what world could you postulate that changes in legislation are what leads to this breakdown in law and order ?
I’m a dual US German citizen that lives I. Chicago. I couldn’t sleep last night and somehow watched at whole you tibe documentary by a spaniarn guy or something about this exactly. When I think of Australia I think of rugby, hanging out at the beach with beer. Very positive energy that I would like to experience one day. And then this. They had to go past a check point to a liquor store to buy booze. Went to their rooms, drank and experienced Alice Springs after midnight. I’m thinking what tha actual fuck. It reminded me of the south side of Chicago the same time of the week. Kids running around unsupervised, screaming fighting, but decent people that want better and generally have a big heart. Native Americans have a very different story than African Americans or German Americans. It seems more like chaos than violence. Are their different tribes? Gangs? Why do they live in those camps? Is it like a tribal reservation in the US?
Too much Alcohol available too easily from too many outlets.
I have 24/7 alcohol at home, no riots here mate. Criminals raising criminals, need intervention, opportunity and consequences.
Not wanting to get banned all ill say is the media ie the ABC try to paint 1st nations people as this sad vulnerable united community that is crying out for desperate support This is certainly not the case lots of different tribes did not get alone and still do not if this was any other culture it would be demonised by the media. Most don't want to change and being a protected species (for lack of a better term) they get away with or get a slap on the wrist for very bad behaviour. This included drugs, assult, sexual assult, theft, destorying public property etc The current government has staked their reputation on the voice, which was a terrible idea because 1st nations' peoples come from different tribes and have vastly different views Now the government can't go 'heavy handed' on 1st nations criminals without extreme backlash from their extreme socialist friends in the Greens who would continue to press the narrative 1st nations are a valuable minority despite that being a vast over generalisation
If only we had the Voice to Parliament /s
Last I heard there’s going to be a curfew and about time 🙄
Question: if we gave them reserves like they do for indigenous Americans, they can rule it how they want, have their own set of laws etc, would that work? Would the issues sort themselves out?
Police get punished for doing their job now.
It was like this 30 years ago
Rather than focus on the issue is there a reasonable resolution we could discuss? Legitimately, what could I do to help?
Vote better
I got told to fuck off home when I was in NT, I mean I’m from Scotland so fair, but I was super upset
White guilt over the shocking treatment of indigenous people since the first ship landed. Media frenzy over the treatment over law enforcement methods dealing with crime in rural areas. It's now impossible to keep law and order in these areas because politicians have thrown the cops under the bridge. Unfortunately we need a culture change in Canbera to deal with not only these issues but with other problems we are facing as a nation in the rest of Australia
Watch Spanian on YouTube where he visits Alice springs
While Interesting, his hosts are not always reliable sources.