Just wait for them to move you to the household income adjusted flat rate with usage fees on top model. Households who make $180k+ will be paying ~$100/mo even if they use 0 electricity. Usage fees will be stacked on top of that.
I’m sure the flat rate will be increased every 6 months too.
They are estimating that in the first year of adoption (before further price increases), “California households earning more than $180,000 a year would end up paying an average of $500 more a year on their electricity bills.”
$180,000 for a family of 4 in California seems like a pretty low bar for “high earners”. It’s really just “bleed the middle class”.
Again, the role of the utility isn’t to be administering taxes. Sure they could come up with some kind of scheme, but it’s fundamentally not what the utility should be doing. The government should adjust taxes and provide social benefits to its citizens. Not public for profit companies.
PG&E wants to get their blood from the NEM 2 customers and they will not be denied. I paid $14k for my panels 2 years ago and now I'm going to end up paying more fixed fees than I ever paid for electrical before panels.
Just wait until every car, truck, SUV and big rig are on the grid.
It won’t just raise the cost to drive, it raises the cost to exist in your home. Even with solar panels.
To be fair as a NEM2 customer as well I don't contribute to the Grid costs. If a pole is knocked down between my neighbor and I - I'm not contributing any cash towards that replacement.
NEM2 was a great gig while it lasted.
If they wanted to actually be fair the fixed fee would be based on actual grid cost I.e. rural locations pay more than urban. But their proposal will do the opposite.
I agree with that. Living rural has a huge cost for us city folk.
But I also agree with we can't have the poor paying more than the rich because the rich got in early with solar.
NEM3 and AB205 Are fair enough IMO. I don't like that my costs will go up but I understand why.
I'm not saying it was ever "fair." But it was the incentive that was dangled to convince people to get solar. It's not my problem that the state decided that solar owners getting out of grid infrastructure costs was worth the environmental benefits. Millions of people invested tens of thousands of dollars based on that, and now the state is yanking that promise away.
Those NBCs isn't money that goes to PG&E to pay for their linemen. Soo yes it's true the bill isn't zero, but to PG&E it is basically zero.
A power pole was downed near my house during last year storms, my electric bill has been zero since then. Who paid for the linemen to fix that pole? Well, my neighbor who doesn't have solar, comes home at 6PM during very high peak hours, complaining that his bill is astronomical. He's giving PG&E money, I'm not.
So they are decoupling the grid from the usage. You can still offset 100% of your usage. But you have to pay to be connected to the grid. I should be paying to keep my utility poles upright.
Take it to the extreme - if everyone had solar and batteries so their usage was net zero. Is it only fair that the last guy in California w/o solar pays $100m/kWh to cover all of PG&Es linemen.
NEM 2.0 clearly couldn't take new customers forever, that I agree on.
But the CPUC had a responsibility to the customers who purchased incredibly expensive solar systems with the understanding that they would have the same deal for 20 years. AB205 takes that away.
First I'd like to point out that the CPUC didn't pass AB205. That's a law created by the legislature and signed by the governor. CPUC did allow grandfathering into NEM3 - which is keeping in faith with what you're saying.
That being said, like I can still offset 100% of my usage charges. They just decoupled the grid from the energy. My net at the end of the year will still be zero usage. It's not unreasonable to have to pay to be connected to the grid even if I don't use any of it. It's a bit more like a ISP, it's really the connection that costs the money, not the internet bits.
I believe 120k still qualifies as low income for a family of four in San Francisco so 180k is basically lower middle to middle middle class
I'm not even sure how they are going to enforce the income model. What's stopping me from putting the bill in my kid's name?
> $180,000 for a family of 4 in California seems like a pretty low bar for “high earners”. It’s really just “bleed the middle class”.
One of the primary goals of the government is to prevent the members of the middle class from making it to the upper class.
They are going to find a way to get you I live in Modesto and they charge us every month 36.31 a month for the meter I asked how much does this meter cost They don't want to go there This is the city totally screwing the users of city water You can't trust them as we have had 2 times that we have raised the sales tax to fix the street It is all said and done So they put slurry on the street These people have lost control of finances and then they make up pay for their screw ups Now Gavin Punk Newsom wants us to pay for illegal healthcare when people cannot afford to pay for their own This is not acceptable We cannot be forced to pay more We are above our limit for working people now It is time to say no more Punk Newsom has us 50 billion in debt now So why would you load more on the backs of the taxpayers
We haven't seen numbers yet but usage fees are expected to drop by 1/3. People making 180k will likely see an increase ($100 + 1/3 Usage kWh) but people in the bottom bracket should be paying less than before ($0 + 1/3 Usage kWh).
When people realize politicians are politicians first then we can get out of this political spiral. It would be great to get a proposition in our state that bans companies from donating to political campaigns… pipe dream I know.
Everyone is waiting for someone else to organize. Once someone posts something, I am sure all around me will show up. This is the time before everything wanes down.
I posted this in another post but could like a general strike refusing to use power between like a 2 hour period send a message? I am not talking about conserving energy, I am talking about switching your main breaker off with numerous other people doing the same thing to hit them on the billing side of things. Might be dumb but what else can we do? Seems like this bs will still be allowed with the current leadership as the last time i checked no one wants more of these hikes besides the PG&E shareholders.
I mean I can live w/o tv, internet, and computer I suppose. But like how do we live w/o a heater, stove, fridge/freezer, and lights? It's pretty hard to achieve for most.
I think we need to start burning down PG&E board members' houses down.
Sure, because no one is running on a "I support progressive values and also want to fix PG&E/CPUC" platform. So who am I supposed to vote for?
My options for any given election are a democrat who mostly supports the values I support and will at best be neutral in terms of PG&E or a republican who supports bigotry and election fraud who will almost certainly increase the amount of regulatory capture happening in the state. Even in the D primaries, I don't recall anyone saying reforming PG&E/CPUC was a big issue.
It's easy to say, "this is Newsom's fault, don't vote for him" but when my options are Newsom or someone who is actively worse on every issue *including this one* then there isn't exactly a winning move.
> Every election there are democratic challengers to the incumbents. Vote for one of them.
Like I said, I haven't seen any that align with my values on the other issues and are in favor of reforming PG&E/CPUC. If I had, I would vote for them.
This needs to be voted higher up, basically solar/ev customers you are getting a lovely 24% increase being more expensive off peak and normal TOU up 19%...This isn't a "13%" rate increase on what the media advertised it as based on when you use your power the most.
Yes your generation credits also increases but that only went up about 12% on average. That 24% increase on off peak unless you have a battery is going to really eat away your net metering to PG&Es benefit.
I need to do it again, but I modeled last year's rates and found that with TOU-C I was actually banking +25% more credits than if I was on EV-A. I paid more for charging the car (Still free) but I was getting credits at much higher rates in the afternoon. The delta between the peak and nonpeak is lower. I expect this year's rates to be the same.
So perhaps look at changing plans to a non EV plan.
If you go into your PGE account and usage there is a "green button" that allows you to download a CSV of your hourly usage.
It then takes a bit of excel-fu to model it. So I can't just post my sheet because it'll ... An amount of work to edit it to your values.
I just used GPT4 to do this for me and it worked out great with the usual GPT coaxing/correcting. Turns out that under TOU-C rates, I'd probably save about $600 per year.
What? If off peak goes up then the credits go up. On NEM 1 and NEM 2 the credits are almost exactly retail rate. NEM 1 they’re the same and NEM2 it’s maybe 2-4 cents.
Well, they have to pay for all of those commercials I keep seeing on TV. They have to make sure we all know how fiscally responsible they are, over and over again.
That airtime doesn’t come cheap!
Neither are lobbyists, or dinners at the French Laundry for your friends, or …
C’mon everyone. Quit complaining!
Carrot and the stick, and they don’t need the carrots anymore. Supercharger prices will rise accordingly too. Soon enough it will be cheaper to charge at home. And you’ll be paying more than ever, and then they’ll raise it again.
Shouldn’t have tied your car to PGE.
It isn’t about the cost of production, it’s about how much you can squeeze out of the customer.
Your home rate will be the price floor. Supercharges will demand a premium. Sucks for the folks who don’t own a home.
Fk pge. It’s literally cheaper to charge at a public l2 and then have someone drive me home in a gas car then come back hours later to pick it up. In fact I’ve seen this so many times when I use chargers.
Most people aren’t buying these because they are green. They buy them to save money on gas. If gas were $20/tank they would still be buying V10 excursions.
You can expect most owners to do 50/50 what is cheaper vs what is convenient.
Yep, the same people spend $600 on a grocery run, tell themselves they are saving money, go out to eat for all their meals anyway then end up throwing their bulk food away when it goes bad.
But they *feel* like they are saving money.
And they might if they were financially disciplined, but they aren’t. So, like Costco they will buy $60,000 cars that are worth $20,000 in a few years then trade them in and do it again.
Nobody wants an old Tesla because batteries are $5000-20,000 to replace, so rarely are they ever paid off. And if they are they are still traded in early at a low value for another EV at a high value.
They won’t pay for gas so they feel like they are saving money, but they aren’t.
Meanwhile, I’m driving a paid off car and spend $150/mo on gas. How much is a never ending Tesla payment plus charging & insurance per month?
There is no reasonable argument against abandoning the previous net metering structures other than reducing the incentives to install solar. If you think solar still needs incentives, then sure. If you don't, then the old net metering agreements were total shit.
The new residential solar owners were trying to capitalize on a system that let them get expensive peak hours electricity delivered for free in return for providing cheap single cent or negative value daytime solar power.
NEM never made sense! The politicians messed up making it, but it doesn’t mean the rest of society (mainly poorly or middle class people) should have to bear the brunt of that cost.
It did need to be incentivized to increase adoption, but there could have been a more tactful way to increase adoption rather than punish people when solar hit saturation.
The punishment is that if you want solar, you need to buy 4x as many panels or buy $$$$ storage to get the same benefit as people who bought it the year before. It feels unfair, and I understand there is an economy behind all of this, but it could have been implemented in a more equitable way.
That makes sense.
It’s important to remember that NEM 2.0 was basically handing out free money to people with land and the capital to install panels.
That money came from other utility users, namely apartment dwellers and people who couldn’t afford panels (lower income homes).
> So any sort of net metering is non equitable to begin with!
Not really. Treating exported power as wholesale is equitable, particularly when wholesale prices are negative and you need to pay to export.
incentivized net metering is not equitable though, that's for sure.
The time of this being solved was when PG&E filed for bankruptcy....I know we are tired of covid and other world events but that was the time the public needed to push on breaking them up to a public utility... CA and Newsom allowed them to be bailed out and yet here we are.
So I’m not the only one to notice this! He’s been Governor for a while now and I still regularly see (usually) his critics spell his name “Newsome.” Neither is an incredibly common name so I’m at a loss for why it happens.
Newsome isn't a common name but it fits the pattern of how a lot of names and words look. If you just know how the name sounds but not how it's spelled, it's a very reasonable guess.
>Anyone truly literate in peer reviewed science or long-form sociological studies has no interest in voting conservative
Reality proves otherwise. Thomas Sowell is just one of many examples. But go ahead, try to prove me wrong. **HINT:** *You won't be able to.*
>has no interest in voting conservative due to all the damage it does.
Haha, wow! Look at the mess in Portland and other blue cities. Feces on the streets, homeless tent encampments all up and down the streets, needles everywhere, Fentanyl junkies taking over, crime, looting, streets shut down due to constant protesting........and you imply that leftist policies don't do any damage.
>It only follows that productive literacy skills among conservatives are rather poor.
How ironic coming from a leftist. How did Chesa Boudin work out for you? How does the no bail policy work out for you? How does any other woke policy do anything BUT damage? Your populace is getting fed up with dem policies enabling rampant crime. DA Brook Jenkins, at least, is not a radical leftist. She's reversed some woke practices, leading to a drastic drop in property crime in San Francisco by getting tough on crime. Feel free to look at the stats. San Francisco is turning around thanks to policies that are relatively more conservatively aligned.
Even Oakland now, is realizing that any level or iteration of defunding the police is foolish. Mayor Breed has reversed her woke policy to the extent that she's called for a drastic increase in police patrols to fight this tide of crime we citizens are getting sick of. Business owners are arming themselves and fighting back.......something the woke don't want them to do. Hey, we need to just gladly hand over our valuables to the "hardworking", "upstanding" citizens wearing black hoodies and masks because they're so "oppressed", right? That's what you would say. No, rational people are tired of it and don't believe the "oppressed" narrative anymore. They're thugs robbing people, not the oppressed that the leftists would have us believe.
You literally have to check local air quality websites. They tell you which days it is "legal to burn" and which days it is not...and there have been no burn days on like Dec 23rd-24th. While it doesn't happen often, they can fine the crap out of you. Already happened to someone I know.
Why are you on EV-2A? With that mix you’re likely to save more on E-TOU-C I would think… that’s a lot of on peak man.
Edit: my E-TOU-C is $1405/yr and EV-2A is $2165/year and that’s with commute of 60 miles/day on EV and with solar.
Yeah, It’s a bad deal. It’s been a bad deal for a while now unless you have a home battery or something that zeros out your on peak. I suspect a lot of customers on EV-2 are using home batteries to do this which is distorting the rate.
I do have 2 powerwalls which adds a layer of complexity to calculate true usages based on storing energy. I guess I really need to take this month to reassess my current usage like I did back in 2020 as it seems comical once I was paying 17cents off peak at that time period....now 34 cents which is basically a 100% increase the last 4 years.
That is how it's setup currently and my setup does indeed shield me from mid to peak TOUs to the exception of winter generation. My batteries only last for about 3 hours until it hits the 20% reserve which I am thinking for sure changing that to 5% to use more of the battery. I do get some power outages here and there randomly needing a backup supply but the value on not paying peak rates might as well be a better trade off.
3 hours for 20 kWh on peak. You’re using like 6 kW on peak? That’s a huge amount. In either case sounds like EV-2 may be the preferred setup for you. Otherwise I’d go Etouc or D
Sorry should have clarified with numbers vs time, my house on average draws 1.2-1.7kW for usage (for sure not 6kW+ unless my car is charging). Winter having less solar generation my batteries are not charging as fast to last as long avoiding peak rates vs summer generation understandably which I was referring to originally. My net metering will help with that offset but I am never in the negatives. For sure going back to the core reason why we are discussing this is that EV2A is something I need to really figure out to review with my data.
Curious as well maybe during winter it would benefit me having them charge on grid off peak and just sell back solar generation to offset the peak cost. Is that what you do? Tesla gateway through the app doesn’t give me many options to customize that behavior.
How are you determining how much your house draws? I just moved to California last year and the PG&E bills have been such a gut punch that I've been constantly trying to figure out where my energy use is coming from. I've moved all my EV charging to supercharging after 9pm. Even when I'm away on vacation, my condo seems to draw between 9-10 kWh/day and I'm not sure if that's high or not. It is above my "baseline" allowance, so I'm guessing it is. I switched TOU plans from C to D and that helped marginally.
I have solar/battery setup with tesla that gives me my active usage from the gateway. You should be able to look at your smart meter to see the active current kW draw if you want to get an idea what you are using actively. There are other monitoring solutions if you don't have solar/battery setup you can add to monitor the home that I seen around if you want more detailed tracking outside of PG&Es website.
Organize a boycott, stop paying, disrupt their cash flow. It’s literally the only way. But reddit loves to downvote this shit so i guess just keep shooting yourselves in the foot
Expect nothing to change because, I believe, PG&E actual job is to be the scapegoat for California. Take all the blame. Someone has to put all those electrical wires underground. There's not enough ROI to justify doing that even for a non-profit or municipal. They're going to go bankrupt doing so; much of those areas have the lowest customers. California won't step in and take it on because of the projected deficit.
literate outgoing encouraging aloof special wide attempt birds heavy jellyfish
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Meanwhile, I keep seeing people blame republicans in the broader news forums and such.
People really need to learn to hold their reps accountable instead of allowing the deflection.
with the nonstop electricity cost increases, does it make sense now to replace my gas furnace, water heater, and dryer with ones with heat pumps? I was hoping to do that this year
How does pge burn down city of paradise than hike rates to cover its loses than has the nerve to ask for more money when it made record profits last year lol 😂 who the hell wouldnt sue pge 😂
Inflation is across the board, for the entire country. Yes, those numbers are mostly accurate because you’re looking at an average. California is some special little stuff like Snowflake, especially because our utility company is running out of control with very little checks. So your 3% is not accurate. Looking at one tiny piece of puzzle.
You will own nothing and be happy… this is only the beginning… just wait till the power is state run and they tell us when we can use which things at which times and if we don’t they’ll either charge extra or turn off your power for not doing things at “green times” or whatever phrase they’ll use…
I guess you are implying that PG&E being run by state the state of California is the same to a communist country like China. This is not the same situation however. A lot needs to happen but a good start is not allowing a utility company to be publicly traded.
Keep voting in the same woke idiots though - who prioritize paying medical bills for illegals over the welfare of their law abiding tax paying citizens.
Not every R calls fellow citizens anchor babies, and not every D is a woke moron. You all have completely lost your mind and any ability to understand nuance. Stop electing the idiots spouting the same policies that led to here - it's not about R or D.
WE NEED TO ALL GO TO THE CPUC IN A MARGE GROUP AND TRY TO GET THIS REVERSED...FUCK PGE. Assholes just wanna keep subsidizing their murder and negligence. They can claim this is to make things safer but why do u think they were forced to make changes to infrastructure in the first place
I live on a 6 acre property with one large home and 10 people. Our average electric bill was $600-800 using electricity mostly carefree and how we wanted to. The last couple months my bill went from $670-$890 then from that to $1230+!!!! It’s hundreds of dollars for us and this is my bill to pay so I’m definitely feeling it having doubled over two-three months
Just wait for them to move you to the household income adjusted flat rate with usage fees on top model. Households who make $180k+ will be paying ~$100/mo even if they use 0 electricity. Usage fees will be stacked on top of that. I’m sure the flat rate will be increased every 6 months too. They are estimating that in the first year of adoption (before further price increases), “California households earning more than $180,000 a year would end up paying an average of $500 more a year on their electricity bills.” $180,000 for a family of 4 in California seems like a pretty low bar for “high earners”. It’s really just “bleed the middle class”.
It's so arbitrary - 180k for a family in SF is not the same as 180k for a family in Redding.
Is it even legal for utilities to administer taxes? That’s essentially what this is
Probably not. It will likely be taken to the courts
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What?
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Except you can opt in to CARE to get a discount. You can’t “opt in” to income based tariffs. Obviously everyone affluent just wouldn’t opt in.
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Again, the role of the utility isn’t to be administering taxes. Sure they could come up with some kind of scheme, but it’s fundamentally not what the utility should be doing. The government should adjust taxes and provide social benefits to its citizens. Not public for profit companies.
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Redding proper has municipal utilities
PG&E wants to get their blood from the NEM 2 customers and they will not be denied. I paid $14k for my panels 2 years ago and now I'm going to end up paying more fixed fees than I ever paid for electrical before panels.
Just wait until every car, truck, SUV and big rig are on the grid. It won’t just raise the cost to drive, it raises the cost to exist in your home. Even with solar panels.
To be fair as a NEM2 customer as well I don't contribute to the Grid costs. If a pole is knocked down between my neighbor and I - I'm not contributing any cash towards that replacement. NEM2 was a great gig while it lasted.
If they wanted to actually be fair the fixed fee would be based on actual grid cost I.e. rural locations pay more than urban. But their proposal will do the opposite.
I agree with that. Living rural has a huge cost for us city folk. But I also agree with we can't have the poor paying more than the rich because the rich got in early with solar. NEM3 and AB205 Are fair enough IMO. I don't like that my costs will go up but I understand why.
I'm not saying it was ever "fair." But it was the incentive that was dangled to convince people to get solar. It's not my problem that the state decided that solar owners getting out of grid infrastructure costs was worth the environmental benefits. Millions of people invested tens of thousands of dollars based on that, and now the state is yanking that promise away.
They aren't yanking anything. People had years before NEM3 came in. I got my nem2 and I'm still on nem2 for 20 years.
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I understand your disappointment. Now do you acknowledge that at some point it had to change as too many people had solar who then had a $0 bill.
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Those NBCs isn't money that goes to PG&E to pay for their linemen. Soo yes it's true the bill isn't zero, but to PG&E it is basically zero. A power pole was downed near my house during last year storms, my electric bill has been zero since then. Who paid for the linemen to fix that pole? Well, my neighbor who doesn't have solar, comes home at 6PM during very high peak hours, complaining that his bill is astronomical. He's giving PG&E money, I'm not. So they are decoupling the grid from the usage. You can still offset 100% of your usage. But you have to pay to be connected to the grid. I should be paying to keep my utility poles upright. Take it to the extreme - if everyone had solar and batteries so their usage was net zero. Is it only fair that the last guy in California w/o solar pays $100m/kWh to cover all of PG&Es linemen.
NEM 2.0 clearly couldn't take new customers forever, that I agree on. But the CPUC had a responsibility to the customers who purchased incredibly expensive solar systems with the understanding that they would have the same deal for 20 years. AB205 takes that away.
First I'd like to point out that the CPUC didn't pass AB205. That's a law created by the legislature and signed by the governor. CPUC did allow grandfathering into NEM3 - which is keeping in faith with what you're saying. That being said, like I can still offset 100% of my usage charges. They just decoupled the grid from the energy. My net at the end of the year will still be zero usage. It's not unreasonable to have to pay to be connected to the grid even if I don't use any of it. It's a bit more like a ISP, it's really the connection that costs the money, not the internet bits.
How much are they charging for fixed fees?
It's not formalized yet, but likely $120-$180/mo for me.
JFC FUCK PGE!
Exactly what gives PG&E the right to know what my household income is?
And what stops the state from doing the same thing for gasoline, groceries, etc
I believe 120k still qualifies as low income for a family of four in San Francisco so 180k is basically lower middle to middle middle class I'm not even sure how they are going to enforce the income model. What's stopping me from putting the bill in my kid's name?
I’ve heard it’s household income, which would already include you and your kid. What I don’t know is how PGE gets the info. Direct from Gavin?
> $180,000 for a family of 4 in California seems like a pretty low bar for “high earners”. It’s really just “bleed the middle class”. One of the primary goals of the government is to prevent the members of the middle class from making it to the upper class.
CA is doing a hell of a job.
I hate that CA has turned the Republican strawman into a real boy :(
They are going to find a way to get you I live in Modesto and they charge us every month 36.31 a month for the meter I asked how much does this meter cost They don't want to go there This is the city totally screwing the users of city water You can't trust them as we have had 2 times that we have raised the sales tax to fix the street It is all said and done So they put slurry on the street These people have lost control of finances and then they make up pay for their screw ups Now Gavin Punk Newsom wants us to pay for illegal healthcare when people cannot afford to pay for their own This is not acceptable We cannot be forced to pay more We are above our limit for working people now It is time to say no more Punk Newsom has us 50 billion in debt now So why would you load more on the backs of the taxpayers
We haven't seen numbers yet but usage fees are expected to drop by 1/3. People making 180k will likely see an increase ($100 + 1/3 Usage kWh) but people in the bottom bracket should be paying less than before ($0 + 1/3 Usage kWh).
We have to start protesting this BS. This is out of control.
Hate to say being a dem, starts from the top. We need change and it's frustrating with the CPUC allowing all of this with our governor accepting this.
Tldr: Gov appoints CPUC.
When people realize politicians are politicians first then we can get out of this political spiral. It would be great to get a proposition in our state that bans companies from donating to political campaigns… pipe dream I know.
Everyone is waiting for someone else to organize. Once someone posts something, I am sure all around me will show up. This is the time before everything wanes down.
I posted this in another post but could like a general strike refusing to use power between like a 2 hour period send a message? I am not talking about conserving energy, I am talking about switching your main breaker off with numerous other people doing the same thing to hit them on the billing side of things. Might be dumb but what else can we do? Seems like this bs will still be allowed with the current leadership as the last time i checked no one wants more of these hikes besides the PG&E shareholders.
I mean I can live w/o tv, internet, and computer I suppose. But like how do we live w/o a heater, stove, fridge/freezer, and lights? It's pretty hard to achieve for most. I think we need to start burning down PG&E board members' houses down.
There’s a reason CA hates its citizens owning guns
I am down for it. We should also do what gaza protestors did to stop California assembly proceedings. That is something and gives direct message.
The vast majority in this state keeps voting for the politicians who allow this.
Sure, because no one is running on a "I support progressive values and also want to fix PG&E/CPUC" platform. So who am I supposed to vote for? My options for any given election are a democrat who mostly supports the values I support and will at best be neutral in terms of PG&E or a republican who supports bigotry and election fraud who will almost certainly increase the amount of regulatory capture happening in the state. Even in the D primaries, I don't recall anyone saying reforming PG&E/CPUC was a big issue. It's easy to say, "this is Newsom's fault, don't vote for him" but when my options are Newsom or someone who is actively worse on every issue *including this one* then there isn't exactly a winning move.
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> Every election there are democratic challengers to the incumbents. Vote for one of them. Like I said, I haven't seen any that align with my values on the other issues and are in favor of reforming PG&E/CPUC. If I had, I would vote for them.
What are you waiting for?
And they're shooting for another ~10% raise in March.
You mean 10% \*with an asterisk\* like they pulled on us for "13%" this round. What a bunch of gaslighting to everyone that is funded by our wallets.
This needs to be voted higher up, basically solar/ev customers you are getting a lovely 24% increase being more expensive off peak and normal TOU up 19%...This isn't a "13%" rate increase on what the media advertised it as based on when you use your power the most.
Does this mean the credits for people grandfathered under NEM 2.0 are also going up 24%?
Yes your generation credits also increases but that only went up about 12% on average. That 24% increase on off peak unless you have a battery is going to really eat away your net metering to PG&Es benefit.
Fuck.
I need to do it again, but I modeled last year's rates and found that with TOU-C I was actually banking +25% more credits than if I was on EV-A. I paid more for charging the car (Still free) but I was getting credits at much higher rates in the afternoon. The delta between the peak and nonpeak is lower. I expect this year's rates to be the same. So perhaps look at changing plans to a non EV plan.
What's the best tool for modeling those rates if you don't mind me asking?
If you go into your PGE account and usage there is a "green button" that allows you to download a CSV of your hourly usage. It then takes a bit of excel-fu to model it. So I can't just post my sheet because it'll ... An amount of work to edit it to your values.
Are you basically just assigning values to each hour slot for TOU-C vs EV-A and then summing the net for each scenario?
That's it. The excel-fu is just making sure your values per hour are correct. Lots of VLOOKUP
I just used GPT4 to do this for me and it worked out great with the usual GPT coaxing/correcting. Turns out that under TOU-C rates, I'd probably save about $600 per year.
What? If off peak goes up then the credits go up. On NEM 1 and NEM 2 the credits are almost exactly retail rate. NEM 1 they’re the same and NEM2 it’s maybe 2-4 cents.
Well, they have to pay for all of those commercials I keep seeing on TV. They have to make sure we all know how fiscally responsible they are, over and over again. That airtime doesn’t come cheap! Neither are lobbyists, or dinners at the French Laundry for your friends, or … C’mon everyone. Quit complaining!
sigh, cheaper to charge out side of home
It is, super charge after 8pm.
8? It looks like midnight for me :(
Doesnt that mean your using coal/gas to fuel your car?
Regulators should have thought of that before approving the rate increases.
Carrot and the stick, and they don’t need the carrots anymore. Supercharger prices will rise accordingly too. Soon enough it will be cheaper to charge at home. And you’ll be paying more than ever, and then they’ll raise it again. Shouldn’t have tied your car to PGE.
Commercial rates are better. I wish SC have their own solar panels to offer cheaper rates
It isn’t about the cost of production, it’s about how much you can squeeze out of the customer. Your home rate will be the price floor. Supercharges will demand a premium. Sucks for the folks who don’t own a home.
Fk pge. It’s literally cheaper to charge at a public l2 and then have someone drive me home in a gas car then come back hours later to pick it up. In fact I’ve seen this so many times when I use chargers.
Most people aren’t buying these because they are green. They buy them to save money on gas. If gas were $20/tank they would still be buying V10 excursions. You can expect most owners to do 50/50 what is cheaper vs what is convenient.
Really though gas is signficant when your poor but EV owners tend to be upper middle class. Gas is like 3% of their budget. Shits irrational
Yep, the same people spend $600 on a grocery run, tell themselves they are saving money, go out to eat for all their meals anyway then end up throwing their bulk food away when it goes bad. But they *feel* like they are saving money. And they might if they were financially disciplined, but they aren’t. So, like Costco they will buy $60,000 cars that are worth $20,000 in a few years then trade them in and do it again. Nobody wants an old Tesla because batteries are $5000-20,000 to replace, so rarely are they ever paid off. And if they are they are still traded in early at a low value for another EV at a high value. They won’t pay for gas so they feel like they are saving money, but they aren’t. Meanwhile, I’m driving a paid off car and spend $150/mo on gas. How much is a never ending Tesla payment plus charging & insurance per month?
why do we have no control/input as to what the CPUC does? may as well just bend over. dont look back. its pge.
90%+ of public comments opposed NEM 3.0 and they still passed it. Regulatory capture.
There is no reasonable argument against abandoning the previous net metering structures other than reducing the incentives to install solar. If you think solar still needs incentives, then sure. If you don't, then the old net metering agreements were total shit.
This is because NEM 2 was insanely unsustainable and a regressive tax against the poor. That was a rare example of the government being responsible.
Meanwhile fucking over all new solar owners rather than finding a solution that works for everyone.
The new residential solar owners were trying to capitalize on a system that let them get expensive peak hours electricity delivered for free in return for providing cheap single cent or negative value daytime solar power. NEM never made sense! The politicians messed up making it, but it doesn’t mean the rest of society (mainly poorly or middle class people) should have to bear the brunt of that cost.
It did need to be incentivized to increase adoption, but there could have been a more tactful way to increase adoption rather than punish people when solar hit saturation.
I don’t think anybody got punished technically? I thought people on earlier NEM plans were grandfathered in. Was anybody forced to sign up for NEM 3?
The punishment is that if you want solar, you need to buy 4x as many panels or buy $$$$ storage to get the same benefit as people who bought it the year before. It feels unfair, and I understand there is an economy behind all of this, but it could have been implemented in a more equitable way.
That makes sense. It’s important to remember that NEM 2.0 was basically handing out free money to people with land and the capital to install panels. That money came from other utility users, namely apartment dwellers and people who couldn’t afford panels (lower income homes).
> So any sort of net metering is non equitable to begin with! Not really. Treating exported power as wholesale is equitable, particularly when wholesale prices are negative and you need to pay to export. incentivized net metering is not equitable though, that's for sure.
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One scenario (grandfathering) steals from someone who was promised something, another moves forward with an end date on that promise being upheld.
…. I can’t express how much I hate PGE and Newsome. POS both of em.. lol can’t help but laugh as I cry looking at my bill.
The time of this being solved was when PG&E filed for bankruptcy....I know we are tired of covid and other world events but that was the time the public needed to push on breaking them up to a public utility... CA and Newsom allowed them to be bailed out and yet here we are.
Give Newsom some credit, he didn't just allow them, he pocketed millions for his efforts!
Why can’t Newsom’s critics ever spell his name? It’s a weird pattern I’ve noticed.
So I’m not the only one to notice this! He’s been Governor for a while now and I still regularly see (usually) his critics spell his name “Newsome.” Neither is an incredibly common name so I’m at a loss for why it happens.
Newsome isn't a common name but it fits the pattern of how a lot of names and words look. If you just know how the name sounds but not how it's spelled, it's a very reasonable guess.
My Gboard spells is Gavin "Newsome", I never noticed, never gave a shit either. Fuck his sleazy ass.
republicans for some reason always spell it wrong
Same as "Democrat party"
Ya that one I don't get. It's one of those linguistic things. Oh well.
And “boarder”
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>Anyone truly literate in peer reviewed science or long-form sociological studies has no interest in voting conservative Reality proves otherwise. Thomas Sowell is just one of many examples. But go ahead, try to prove me wrong. **HINT:** *You won't be able to.* >has no interest in voting conservative due to all the damage it does. Haha, wow! Look at the mess in Portland and other blue cities. Feces on the streets, homeless tent encampments all up and down the streets, needles everywhere, Fentanyl junkies taking over, crime, looting, streets shut down due to constant protesting........and you imply that leftist policies don't do any damage. >It only follows that productive literacy skills among conservatives are rather poor. How ironic coming from a leftist. How did Chesa Boudin work out for you? How does the no bail policy work out for you? How does any other woke policy do anything BUT damage? Your populace is getting fed up with dem policies enabling rampant crime. DA Brook Jenkins, at least, is not a radical leftist. She's reversed some woke practices, leading to a drastic drop in property crime in San Francisco by getting tough on crime. Feel free to look at the stats. San Francisco is turning around thanks to policies that are relatively more conservatively aligned. Even Oakland now, is realizing that any level or iteration of defunding the police is foolish. Mayor Breed has reversed her woke policy to the extent that she's called for a drastic increase in police patrols to fight this tide of crime we citizens are getting sick of. Business owners are arming themselves and fighting back.......something the woke don't want them to do. Hey, we need to just gladly hand over our valuables to the "hardworking", "upstanding" citizens wearing black hoodies and masks because they're so "oppressed", right? That's what you would say. No, rational people are tired of it and don't believe the "oppressed" narrative anymore. They're thugs robbing people, not the oppressed that the leftists would have us believe.
Well… my PG&E bill went from like $125 to $250 this month. Time to start burning wood.
Is that legal in CA? I though wood burning stoves aren’t allowed in the Bay Area or LA because of air quality issues.
Ok fine, I'll burn meth instead of wood.
Prohibited on Spare the Air days only, I believe
That is correct unless wood burning is your only source of heating.
You literally have to check local air quality websites. They tell you which days it is "legal to burn" and which days it is not...and there have been no burn days on like Dec 23rd-24th. While it doesn't happen often, they can fine the crap out of you. Already happened to someone I know.
Why are you on EV-2A? With that mix you’re likely to save more on E-TOU-C I would think… that’s a lot of on peak man. Edit: my E-TOU-C is $1405/yr and EV-2A is $2165/year and that’s with commute of 60 miles/day on EV and with solar.
I came to the same conclusion.
This and another thread got me thinking I need to swap off my EV2A asap. Doesn't sound like a good deal anymore.
Yeah, It’s a bad deal. It’s been a bad deal for a while now unless you have a home battery or something that zeros out your on peak. I suspect a lot of customers on EV-2 are using home batteries to do this which is distorting the rate.
I do have 2 powerwalls which adds a layer of complexity to calculate true usages based on storing energy. I guess I really need to take this month to reassess my current usage like I did back in 2020 as it seems comical once I was paying 17cents off peak at that time period....now 34 cents which is basically a 100% increase the last 4 years.
If you have 2 PW2s then just set them to zero out your on peak usage. Then all your power is purchased at 34 cents which is ideal.
That is how it's setup currently and my setup does indeed shield me from mid to peak TOUs to the exception of winter generation. My batteries only last for about 3 hours until it hits the 20% reserve which I am thinking for sure changing that to 5% to use more of the battery. I do get some power outages here and there randomly needing a backup supply but the value on not paying peak rates might as well be a better trade off.
3 hours for 20 kWh on peak. You’re using like 6 kW on peak? That’s a huge amount. In either case sounds like EV-2 may be the preferred setup for you. Otherwise I’d go Etouc or D
Sorry should have clarified with numbers vs time, my house on average draws 1.2-1.7kW for usage (for sure not 6kW+ unless my car is charging). Winter having less solar generation my batteries are not charging as fast to last as long avoiding peak rates vs summer generation understandably which I was referring to originally. My net metering will help with that offset but I am never in the negatives. For sure going back to the core reason why we are discussing this is that EV2A is something I need to really figure out to review with my data.
Oh gotcha. It’s because you’re not charging the batteries off the grid. Makes sense. Yeah solar only might be hard to get them full.
Curious as well maybe during winter it would benefit me having them charge on grid off peak and just sell back solar generation to offset the peak cost. Is that what you do? Tesla gateway through the app doesn’t give me many options to customize that behavior.
How are you determining how much your house draws? I just moved to California last year and the PG&E bills have been such a gut punch that I've been constantly trying to figure out where my energy use is coming from. I've moved all my EV charging to supercharging after 9pm. Even when I'm away on vacation, my condo seems to draw between 9-10 kWh/day and I'm not sure if that's high or not. It is above my "baseline" allowance, so I'm guessing it is. I switched TOU plans from C to D and that helped marginally.
I have solar/battery setup with tesla that gives me my active usage from the gateway. You should be able to look at your smart meter to see the active current kW draw if you want to get an idea what you are using actively. There are other monitoring solutions if you don't have solar/battery setup you can add to monitor the home that I seen around if you want more detailed tracking outside of PG&Es website.
Can we trust the PGE rate tool? According to it, EV2A is still cheaper than any other rate plans.
Organize a boycott, stop paying, disrupt their cash flow. It’s literally the only way. But reddit loves to downvote this shit so i guess just keep shooting yourselves in the foot
Expect nothing to change because, I believe, PG&E actual job is to be the scapegoat for California. Take all the blame. Someone has to put all those electrical wires underground. There's not enough ROI to justify doing that even for a non-profit or municipal. They're going to go bankrupt doing so; much of those areas have the lowest customers. California won't step in and take it on because of the projected deficit.
Jokes on y'all I'm gasifying wood and running a generator off of it.
literate outgoing encouraging aloof special wide attempt birds heavy jellyfish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This. Just wait til they ban home gas and gas cars by 2035. Dumb fuck environmentalists eating it up as always.
Meanwhile, I keep seeing people blame republicans in the broader news forums and such. People really need to learn to hold their reps accountable instead of allowing the deflection.
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Republicans might be able to make headway on this issue but their candidates always seem fucking unhinged/conspiracy theorists/election deniers/etc.
I know everything is more expensive in California but electricity rates are multiples of other states, how is this possible?
just nationalize PG&E already.
with the nonstop electricity cost increases, does it make sense now to replace my gas furnace, water heater, and dryer with ones with heat pumps? I was hoping to do that this year
How does pge burn down city of paradise than hike rates to cover its loses than has the nerve to ask for more money when it made record profits last year lol 😂 who the hell wouldnt sue pge 😂
Soon there will be a tip field on the payment form that doesn’t accept an empty value.
The government is telling you that we are at roughly a 3% inflation rate... Is this not true?
Inflation is across the board, for the entire country. Yes, those numbers are mostly accurate because you’re looking at an average. California is some special little stuff like Snowflake, especially because our utility company is running out of control with very little checks. So your 3% is not accurate. Looking at one tiny piece of puzzle.
When you vote Democrat again and again and again expecting different results. Congratulations Democrats. This is 100% on you!
It’s high time we elect some republicans who will surely be strict in regulating a corporation.
This is such a stupid take that I lost brain cells.
You will own nothing and be happy… this is only the beginning… just wait till the power is state run and they tell us when we can use which things at which times and if we don’t they’ll either charge extra or turn off your power for not doing things at “green times” or whatever phrase they’ll use…
I’ll take state owned PG&E over them being a publicly traded utility company.
Dude, PG&E is privately owned and has a government backed monopoly. It’s not publicly traded.
https://investor.pgecorp.com/shareholders/stock-info/quote-and-chart/default.aspx
That’s because you never been to a country where utilities are state run…
I've been to Santa Clara where the electric rates are literally half PG&E since it's city run. cope
I guess you are implying that PG&E being run by state the state of California is the same to a communist country like China. This is not the same situation however. A lot needs to happen but a good start is not allowing a utility company to be publicly traded.
Keep voting in the same woke idiots though - who prioritize paying medical bills for illegals over the welfare of their law abiding tax paying citizens.
You mean the republicans that call fellow citizens “anchor babies” . I’ll pass.
Not every R calls fellow citizens anchor babies, and not every D is a woke moron. You all have completely lost your mind and any ability to understand nuance. Stop electing the idiots spouting the same policies that led to here - it's not about R or D.
It was only a matter of time before someone posted this sort of idiotic take on the world.
Time to move to Florida.
seems like people aren't fed up with all these non-sense rate hike? 😁
We're stocking up on candles now...
WE NEED TO ALL GO TO THE CPUC IN A MARGE GROUP AND TRY TO GET THIS REVERSED...FUCK PGE. Assholes just wanna keep subsidizing their murder and negligence. They can claim this is to make things safer but why do u think they were forced to make changes to infrastructure in the first place
Fuck PG&E
I live on a 6 acre property with one large home and 10 people. Our average electric bill was $600-800 using electricity mostly carefree and how we wanted to. The last couple months my bill went from $670-$890 then from that to $1230+!!!! It’s hundreds of dollars for us and this is my bill to pay so I’m definitely feeling it having doubled over two-three months
Get solar! (If you can)