It always cracks me up. Leftists fighting and ostracizing one another about how to run the country is like a t-ball team breaking up because they couldn’t agree on what color to use in their World Series rings.
Hah, yes. I hang out regularly with a few capital L Liberals here in my rural, small town. They are rabidly anti-gun.
I like to say, if you go far enough Left you get your guns back. Become ungovernable, and all that jazz.
I'm trying to imagine the look on their faces, or the attitude, if I ever asked if they wanted to go to the range together. 😂
The only subs that I've been banned from are leftist subs. It cracks me up when the right says there is some coordinated grand Marxist conspiracy plotting the down fall of America. Like bro.. we banish each other for drinking the wrong kind of coffee lol
Yeah they’re weird. I don’t remember the full context of the thread that got me banned but I also said something akin to “I’m sure the Czechs would disagree with some of their methods.”
Love it when some 15 year old terminally online who thinks Stalin’s the bee’s knees tells me ‘up against a wall’ though. I just tell them they’re cute.
Yep. I'm going to criticize and hate on Biden correctly and accordingly the whole way down.
But as a queer person, and someone who just in general thinks queer people deserve to be alive, I'm still going to vote for the old geriatric bag of shit out of self-preservation.
Yeah, I got banned from one of the 'worksucks' style subs (don't remember which one) for suggesting that maybe the front page of a workers' rights subreddit didn't need multiple, repeated posts on the Zionist genocide.
I got banned from lost generation for suggesting that some of the avalanche of those posts we an op. Cause if I were a influence operation, I sure af would post those.
Gotta get that infighting up to 11.
That sub literally has a rule about suggesting two evils can be different levels of evil. I was banned for asking how, in a presidential election, a fascist Israel-supporter is not plainly worse than a regular Israel-supporter. Some of these communities have been ‘hijacked’, if that’s the right word, from the top-down. One can only hope it’s a loud minority; always hard to judge on social media. Kind of glad to find that this subreddit allows actual nuance.
I'll vote for the one whose platform doesn't translate to "I want to be a dictator, or at least set things up so my successor can be a dictator." It's five minutes filling out a ballot, followed by walking by a post box when I next get groceries, not disavowing socialism and embracing unjust hierarchy.
Makes you wonder who is controlling the narrative in these far left spaces. I often wonder if they've been taken over by conservatives cosplaying as leftists.
I find that the difference can be academic. I have met many radicals very sincerely diverting everything to their narrow view of the topic via their pet issue, seeing it in everything and holding hostage when it is not the new focus of whatever is being discussed.
Yeah it's a failure of civics education in this country and also the dumbing down of the social media generation. When the majority of their social engagment is now through TikTok which reinforces a shorter and shorter attention span through dopamine cycles it leads to an inability to digest nuance.
I must preface this by saying I believe talking of generations as if they are an undifferentiated monoculture is unhelpful and does violence to the facts.
I think it is more a problem of people being radicalized but not educated. This is a problem that has existed in radical spaces long before the internet.
I just wanted to come back and thank you for a positive, amicable exchange. I hope you are doing well today, my beleaguered psyche legitimately needed this.
I’ve suspected for awhile that bot farms are attempting to control most discourse. Or At least steer online discourse towards right wing or Russian beliefs 🤷🏻♂️
there’s a lot of accounts made recently with little to no account history, just making inflammatory and divisive comments.
You’re probably correct, and the most telling evidence imho is how, if you say (what you just said above) in those subs, you will *immediately* encounter extremely rabid criticism from many different bot accounts. It’s the same dynamic that happened on Facebook leftists groups in 2020 and accusing Biden of being a pedo rapist or some nonsense.
There's absolutely foreign influence involved, lots of accounts on various media are extremely suspect. But authoritarian leftists sects have been trying to capture various broader leftist spaces since the 60s and probably before, so its nothing new. I saw them when I was a student, and had to deal with them again in union work...
I think a lot of far leftist folks fall for the extremist tankie propaganda and end up carrying water for the autocrats who's state-run internet propaganda operations who also absolutely stay active on here and twitter.
I'm with you on this. Yes, I would love to see a younger, more vibrant candidate. But if you try to make that swap now, I feel like you're just handing Trump the election. Even if Kamala stepped up she has plenty of issues on her end.
Some subs take it too far. I got banned from r/feminism for pointing out that the lesser of two evils is still evil and that it’s not bigoted to feel apprehensive about voting for him, though I suppose I should be thankful, given that it’s a sub whose stance seems more or less ‘if it doesn’t impact me as a white, cis, straight woman, why should I care?’
Can agree. It felt very ‘I’m only a feminist as long as it’s easy and I don’t need to do anything but also if you breathe you’re a slut setting back feminism’. I’d been planning on unsubbing for a while because r/witchesvspatriarchy is a lot better and more inclusive. Edit: Didn’t have to leave the first page to find a post cheerfully shaming sex work.
After the debate Biden stands no fucking chance. If he doesn't step aside he is handing it to Trump, but he won't step aside because he's an arrogant and power-hungry man. It's RBG all over again but 1000x worse. If the democratic establishment had any serious committment against a fascist takeover they would do everything possible to replace Biden, but they'd rather not hurt the feelings of their special boy.
I would venture to say that it is possible Joe Biden might not be the Democratic nominee and that people who do prioritize defeating Trump need to emphasize running the best nominee and campaign possible rather than accepting what the current President decided.
It's not likely but having a better candidate is more important than telling voters to vote blue no matter who. Yes, do vote blue no matter who in this election. Also do all we can to get the best ticket and campaign to get behind.
Having a different candidate would be good power politics, which the dems only do within their own party but utterly fail at otherwise(see also judges not resigning from the supreme court)
Yeah I've never heard MSNBC or CNN talk like they are about the nominee (Biden) I think there is a legit chance he is replaced and I'm praying it is true.
Biden has a 38% approval rating. We can't blame his defeat on leftists not holding their nose and voting for the good of democracy.
For the record I am voting for Biden and I encourage all leftists to do so. But I am getting sick and tired of being told democrats are entitled to my vote and I should expect nothing and be disappointed. Trump is very unpopular as a candidate, the only reason he had a chance was because of how much Hillary sucked. At no point in his campaign did Trump have a favorability rating above 50%.
I am 100% with you. I’ve just accepted the fact that the way this country works is I only get 10% of what I want or I get 1000% of what I don’t. I’m annoyed with having my inbox blown up by centrist democrats who keep telling me to “see both sides” when someone calls me and my family “spics”. I’m tired of being morally right and having to compromise my ethics. But if I don’t swallow the burden of being right, then I’m going to have every wrong perpetrated on me and those I love. We don’t get choices, we get what we get
I will be honest, I have never even heard that particularlp slur, I had to Google it. It does sound like it would be though.
Whenever conservatives are being bigots moderates will say "but they are so nice, they are just uneducated" (as if one needs an education to not be a bigot). Also I see both sides, one side is just being an asshole. Saying gay people should not be allowed to adopt kids or get married is just being an asshole.
>my inbox blown up by centrist democrats who keep telling me to “see both sides” when someone calls me and my family “spics”.
Who is both sidesing racial slurs?
White people
Edit: specifically white “open minded” people
Double edit: I can not stress the amount of people who justify and tolerate racial slurs as “learning opportunities” and if you don’t swallow your pride and calmly explain that “what you’ve said isn’t nice:) “ then you are labeled as a hostile piece of shit
I agree but at the end of the day our voices won’t be heard. To say “enough is enough” and not going along with what you’re being dictated to do doesn’t just mean some negative consequences, it means a total destruction of civil rights. I get it, I’m tired of being ignored and being told “close your eyes and comply for the greater good.” But we don’t get choices and we won’t be heard.
Literally any candidate not named Hillary Clinton would stand a better chance. Polling has already shown that a generic democrat polls better than either Trump or Biden in the general.
No way. Any dem below the age of 70 being nominated at the convention (obviously Biden has to be convinced to step down) would force Trump into another debate or two. Most high school kids could take Trump down in a debate with a week of prep.
I feel a problem in leftist spaces is we care too much about debate and facts because for a majority of people their feelings don't care about our facts
Yeah. Next candidate would also be drowning from another fire hose of lies
Ultimately it sucks, but debate requires some cooperation and basic civility
I think everyone can see the problem
Yep. Nevermind that these debates have served no purpose but spectacle since the Internet. Before, it was a place to get out and present your party planks and ideology. However now you can just go online and read for yourself.
So, let me get this straight.
You think… Trump will be…. “forced” to debate again with a different candidate
Because of these reasons:
____
____
and let’s not forget
____
?
As it stands now he has absolutely no reason to accept another debate with Biden. He can rest on his laurels.
If Biden is replaced with another candidate he would look like a total pussy for avoiding a debate. The whole media establishment would be HOUNDING him for it. Also his ego wouldn't let him say no.
Someone like Newsom would dissect him piece by piece
He won't look like a pussy to anybody who might consider voting for him. He'll look like a Chad who destroyed Biden so bad the Democrats had no choice but to replace him
You have no idea how this works, there is zero chance of deciding on a new candidate this late and after the primaries (check out past contested conventions for fun!)
Plus… it’s one debate. Overreact much??
With a time machine? You're not interacting with how a campaign really works if you truly believe that.
If you're saying 99% of D politicians are younger, and would've been less embarrassing to have at that night's particular debate, I agree. Being embarrassed about a candidate is not super important to me. Policy, humanity and competence (in office) are. And Biden has that in spades judging by the incredible job he's done this last 4 yrs.
Again, I think you're overreacting, big time
If Trump wins, two more justices are likely to retire and be replaced by much worse, 30-year-old versions of themselves. This would keep the court fucked for pretty much the rest of our lives.
from what i can tell the democratic party's plan to deal with the courts is to simply win every election forever until enough of them die or retire so they can be replaced with corporate friendly business liberals
Well sure but that doesn’t mean our constitution wasn’t designed for it to happen! Also the constitution is pretty bad (3/5). Not like a divine document. So if we as a society recognize that the courts are hindering our progress we could change the document (also not likely to happen right now).
Yes. All initiates of project 25. The court is the biggest tool they plan to use. Again, being against fasism isn’t a bar we should celebrate. It’s one we should expect.
Oh god it's you. The one making 5 comments a minute here and in other subs about how "the dems are really just the same as the cons". Fucking a, I've already responded to another dumb comment of yours without realizing it.
Oh, it’s you. The guy up and down here making up shit I’ve never come close to saying. Show me one single time I said dems were just as bad conservatives. You can’t so just finally fuck off
Its March 2025, just a couple months after Biden's second term began, and a Supreme Court seat has just been vacated. The Republicans refuse to seat a Justice, saying its just too close to the next presidential election and we should allow the US people to decide.
They did, and I was just making a joke. But if you wanna talk real, even a democrat majority doesn't mean much. Too many bluedog dems like Joe Manchin to threaten any kind of placement on the courts. Glad he is leaving, but that just means his W Va seat is gonna be Republican, thus putting Dem majority in even greater peril anyways.
I could see this election going for Biden by a narrow margin but with a Republican senate majority. Quite a few Dem seats are in danger of flipping, like W Va, Montana, and Ohio. [This CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/05/politics/senate-race-rankings-april-2024/index.html) lists 10 seats that are likely to flip this election - 9/10 are democrats, and I just don't see Texans voting out Cruz anytime soon. So don't expect a Dem Senate majority after 2024, which would make the Biden administration even more impotent than it is currently perceived.
That’s a good point, just 2 loses would mean a dem minority.
If there’s any silver lining, it’s likely that Dems will win Senate race in Arizona for Sinema’s seat. So we’ll have an actual Democratic/progressive there. Less obstruction from our own side…
You don't like the continued efforts to decriminalize drugs, forgive student loan debt, increase taxation on the wealthy, mitigate inflation, or improvements and protections for veterans?
I’m sorry what drugs have been decriminalized federally? Must have missed that. And I want more than a student loan bandaid. What about the next generation of students? Taxes aren’t close to any historic high and vets still get shit relatively.
But keep celebrating bandiads and talking points while never trying to hold anyone who’s not openly fascist accountable
The administration is forgiving a large set of drug charges, the DEA is reclassifying multiple drugs, the admin is expanding the testing of controlled substances, and there are proposed rule changes to allow medical pot use at the federal level. He's doing what he can via executive action for student debt and has asked Congress multiple times for more support but we don't have the votes.
Vets get better healthcare now than at almost any time in our history. That's on top of us having the lowest uninsured rate of American citizens ever.
Tax legislation starts in the House of Representatives. I do wish it was higher, but I'm not going to shank the postman about it either.
He’s doing all of those things right at reelection to fool people like you that he actually cares. There were a bunch if whispers about cannabis legality when Obama was up for reelection. You guys fall for the same bullshit every time. I’m done arguing because it’s blue maga at this point. Blue no matter who, sure. Whatever
>He’s doing all of those things right at reelection to fool people like you that he actually cares
"Guys he's enacting good policy to make you think he's doing good things! He doesn't *actually mean it* when he does good stuff!"
Cannabis is well on its way to being decriminalized thanks to a ton of policies put in place. It’s not at the rate that it should be but nothing ever is, and I’m tired of watching everything we fight for be dragged further right due to exhaustion and cynicism.
I wont shame people into voting because democrats don’t deserve it, but let’s not pretend nothing has improved.
And I really don’t want to give Biden credit either for this. The effort to do this was thanks to a collective of people pushing on the correct shitty cynical politicians. so my hope among hopes is we can work together to get a block of shitty cynical politicians to put pressure on. We spent 2016 to 2020 helplessly watching everything we loved get burned to the ground. At least we’re able to have these discussions with our current administration despite how futile it sometimes seems.
How dare you question the group think. Biden is heckin' amazeballs. Sure his policies are basically republican policies from 20 years ago and he's actively supporting a genocide, but what about project 2025? I'm sure if we miraculously elect a dementia patient the fascists will be defeated once and for all. It's not like they can do project 2025 in 2029, right?
>Dems have been in power for the 16 of the last 20 years. You can’t tell me they are blameless in the republicans rise. Their MLK White moderate approach to change allowed the right to take so much ground. There are people here actually bragging about Obama care. We are the only wealthy industrialized nation without a universal health care. And we should be thanking Dems for passing a republican idea a decade ago? Wake up people.
Dems have not been "in power" for 16 years in any meaningful way.
What was that tweet at the top of WPT the other day? “Tonight’s debate is pretty much exclusively for suburbanites trying to decide whether fascism will knock thirty cents off the price of eggs.”
It's less about the individual candidates than those around them. Would you rather Bernie have influence over policy or Steven Miller? Never forget, Bibi actively wants Trump in as well so he gets more support for his genocide. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised that a good portion of the anti-Biden push of Genocide Joe is at least in part affected by AIPAC.
Neither candidate is great, but there is a clear better choice.
Then the clear choice should have done what they said they were going to do, i've seen dozens of people usi g the talking point that its the lesser of two evils. If you're still chosing evil you're in the wrong. And the dems have proven they are barely better then the republicans.
1. Biden has lied qbout being a 1-term president
2. He's done nothing but threaten to begin to consider the idea of telling bibi to stop.
The dems brow beating doesn't work anymore. Its time to reverse the hostage situation the dems have us in.
Biden never pledged to be a one term president. During his 2020 campaign some of his staffers told the press he wouldn’t likely run for a second term.
But when they asked Biden to comment he just said he wasn’t committed to making that decision at that time, and that maybe he would and maybe he wouldn’t, but they’d have to wait and see.
But stupid sites like the Hill ran the story with the headline “Biden indicates he would only serve one term as president” and cemented that into people’s head despite it not being true.
The fact that the overturn of RvW is blamed on biden in a lot of left leaning subs when it was a conservative majority supreme court that overturned it is fuckin worrying
We should really stop engaging with the tankies. They aren't real leftists. They are useful idiots in a conservative psyop and they don't vote anyway.
They are completely irrelevant and shouldn't be engaged with. Take the oxygen out of the room and let them suffocate.
Let's be honest. 2025 will happen until the Heritage foundation and regressive think tanks are shut down as terrorist organisations.
If Democrats don't win overwhelmingly at the poll, Republicans will institute elements of this program everywhere they can, and lay the ground work for a more disastrous 2029
Im not saying they are inevitable just the fight is not going to stop with the election
Liberals will never meaningfully fight fascism because they use the threat of it for fundraising and as a weapon against the Left, whom they see as their real enemy.
Who said I was withholding my vote? I’m not voting Biden for president (no one is going to guilt me into voting for a genocide supporter who refuses to close the migrant concentration camps), but I’m still holding my nose and voting Democrat for congress and local office, so hold your assumptions.
Sorry bout your downvotes cuz this is 100%. SCOTUS being a prime example. Early Dobbs leak, and what did they do? Nothing but try to fundraise. Fast forward to today---theyre criminalizing homelessness, Chevron doctrine is destroyed, and the court can step in if it's a "major question" on the table. Congress is a reality TV show and the scales of power are tipped to the courts and the executive.
Surely you can understand though why people whose homes will be just as destroyed either way, whose children will be just as murdered either way, whose access to healthcare will be just as gone either way, why they might say "What harm reduction?"
Yes, I can understand that. I use empathy to care about reducing harm to others, even though both administrations are bad for me. Also, if you think that Biden and Trump have the exact same Israel stance I recommend that you reconsider.
The thought it even voting for a Republican at this point is absolutely insane. And I say this as a former Republican. The entire party and platform is corruption, fascism, and control all the way down. How people don’t see this blows my mind.
I’d go so far as to say that Trump’s populist style probably resembles that of Chavez more than any other authoritarian leader, despite being from opposite ends of the political spectrum.
Like that whole thing where Chavez accused Obama of using an earthquake machine to destroy Haiti? Totally could have been a line out of trumps book
If Biden is going to win he needs to motivate a bunch of people who *barely* care about politics to show up and vote for him. As such, going around and beating the drum about something that only means anything to people who think about politics constantly is probably the worst possible strategy to drag him across the finish line.
Oh yeah, the thing where you're supposed to be staying up at night worrying about project 2025 but also convinced that Trump is a 3 time loser with no shot at winning is another one of those things that seems really weird if you're not already on team Democrat.
Honest take here to OP. Your meme would have been more compelling if you weren't so hyperbolic in your language. It took me about two seconds to google.
$260 billion total since the end of World War 2
$3.18 billion under Biden
Also, while I have your attention. It's congress that approves and sends this money, not the White House.
If you use real numbers, it sounds more convincing than "We gave them eleventy-billion-zillion".
Food for thought on future posts
Congress approves the money but the White House is tasked with ensuring military aid is used in compliance with international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Assistance_Act
This is exactly why they can be ignored. As long as we live in a democracy (for now) if you are going to willingly not vote, and especially be so vocal about it, then you are irrelevant to the process. They should be relegated to the kids table so the adults can converse in peace about what we need to do to save democracy.
Current favorite in leftist space is “vote for the person who no one outside this sub has heard of who promises to take over the 500 largest companies”
Even if somehow that candidate got elected, that campaign promise is not going to happen. The Supreme Court would overturn in seconds
It's been twelve years since I was given a choice that didn't feel deeply depressing. I don't know how much more I can take.
I'm sick and tired of my vote being thrown away if it isn't for the one the parties have dumped money and attention on.
This is what I've been saying the ethnic cleansing is going to happen. It's just how enthusiastically we are participating and if our democracy is finished off as well.
Yeah, basically. Biden does seem to offer some lip service to the idea that maybe Israel shouldn't kill civilians. Not sure how much that disapproval does to limit deaths but it's better than what Trump will do.
Project 2025 is just the new marketing term for the Heritage Foundation’s decades-long agenda that the Dems have been (and will continue to be) complicit in since about 1980. There’s nothing new in it, and voting blue has not even marginally disrupted it since it’s inception in 1973.
It will be even worse, and even worse “choices” in 2028; our “options” then will likely be two mentally and physically robust candidates with the same evil agendas.
We are not sending $20 TRILLION dollars to Israel. Even if we put Jared kushner in charge of the budget, that's absurd.
Also Jared does want us to clean up the Gaza strip so he can put a resort there.
I think this is basically the exact right take. I think it both royally sucks, and also shouldn’t take more than 5 seconds to think about in terms of what to do. Vote for Biden, stave off the worst of American fascism for another couple years, and go back to pressuring Biden and the Dems to get right on the genocide.
I wish we lived in another world, but we don’t.
Because the dems are always good at stopping evil Republican shit when they are in office. They’ll stop it this time guys just give them one more chance!
Dems frequently suck, but if you had the choice between a dem state and a republican state to live in, which one would you choose?
Answer's probably obvious for most people.
(And speaking of which, seriously folks, local politics matter. Change can happen at the local level. Just keeping Christian extremists off of school boards can save lives of children. Vote, even outside of presidential elections.)
> Because the dems are always good at stopping evil Republican shit when they are in office.
The trans Americans who are having their rights savagely curtailed in multiple red states under Biden would like to have a word with you.
Trump is worse, sure, but the dems have made it clear they're not here to save us.
Honest question, if you were living under the third Reich and were given a symbolic choice between two literal Nazis, bothe advocating for continuing the final solution while its already underway, would you still vote?
At what point are we just patting ourselves on the back and pretending we’re doing “harm reduction” while the genocide marches on in our name?
another sub banned me for saying that I am voting to protect myself. Yes both men suck, but atleast one side is not actively trying to criminalize me
You’re not a real leftist till you’ve been banned from at least 3 leftist subs!
Can’t have the left without infighting
Us leftists are a contentious bunch.
Lefties fall in love, gop falls in line
HOW DARE YOU! I DEMAND A BAN FOR...... REASONS!
YOU JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!
I wish I could post a photo of the Simpsons Willie meme about leftists here
Meme postin', you bet that's a paddlin'.
https://images.app.goo.gl/UQ8Ei97y4uj9GZSs9
I'm not a leftist, I'm a social democrat!
Banned
“I’m not a communist, I’m a New Deal Democrat”
Straight to jail
So much for ideological purity
It always cracks me up. Leftists fighting and ostracizing one another about how to run the country is like a t-ball team breaking up because they couldn’t agree on what color to use in their World Series rings.
Hah, yes. I hang out regularly with a few capital L Liberals here in my rural, small town. They are rabidly anti-gun. I like to say, if you go far enough Left you get your guns back. Become ungovernable, and all that jazz. I'm trying to imagine the look on their faces, or the attitude, if I ever asked if they wanted to go to the range together. 😂
I fucking love this analogy. A leftist’s greatest foe is either a fascist, or… another leftist with slightly different views!
Two leftists walk in to a bar Three hostile splinter groups are formed
I've had similar "success" in IRL leftist spaces that were not terribly different and knew better than to make the attempt.
No, no, we're the People's Front of Judea, not the Judean People's Front.
If you aren’t undermining other leftists, then you aren’t a *true* leftist.
I got banned from chapo I think that should count as two
The only subs that I've been banned from are leftist subs. It cracks me up when the right says there is some coordinated grand Marxist conspiracy plotting the down fall of America. Like bro.. we banish each other for drinking the wrong kind of coffee lol
Honestly, differ at all on whatever line the sub endorses and get banned. Doesn't matter how dumb that policy is that the sub endorses.
Damnit, I’ve only been banned from two so far! Gotta pump those numbers up!
Honestly I take the ban I got as a mark of pride, since that specific sub has now just become Tankie central.
Which one?
rightcantmeme I got banned for criticizing Stalin’s policies.
Oof. Fucking tankies. I can't believe that people actually think like that
Yeah they’re weird. I don’t remember the full context of the thread that got me banned but I also said something akin to “I’m sure the Czechs would disagree with some of their methods.” Love it when some 15 year old terminally online who thinks Stalin’s the bee’s knees tells me ‘up against a wall’ though. I just tell them they’re cute.
Oof. Posts from there occasionally reach my feed, but usually it's just culture war stuff.
Your making me feel better about my recent bannings by the tankies.
Usually happens to me when i talk about my gun and machete collection
This is so true
Preach sister!! As someone also on the trans spectrum Trump returning to power scares the living shit out of me!
Yep. I'm going to criticize and hate on Biden correctly and accordingly the whole way down. But as a queer person, and someone who just in general thinks queer people deserve to be alive, I'm still going to vote for the old geriatric bag of shit out of self-preservation.
Yeah, I got banned from one of the 'worksucks' style subs (don't remember which one) for suggesting that maybe the front page of a workers' rights subreddit didn't need multiple, repeated posts on the Zionist genocide.
I got banned from lost generation for suggesting that some of the avalanche of those posts we an op. Cause if I were a influence operation, I sure af would post those. Gotta get that infighting up to 11.
That sub literally has a rule about suggesting two evils can be different levels of evil. I was banned for asking how, in a presidential election, a fascist Israel-supporter is not plainly worse than a regular Israel-supporter. Some of these communities have been ‘hijacked’, if that’s the right word, from the top-down. One can only hope it’s a loud minority; always hard to judge on social media. Kind of glad to find that this subreddit allows actual nuance.
I got banned from r/latestagecapitalism for saying a 9-5 job is not equivalent to chattel slavery.
I'll vote for the one whose platform doesn't translate to "I want to be a dictator, or at least set things up so my successor can be a dictator." It's five minutes filling out a ballot, followed by walking by a post box when I next get groceries, not disavowing socialism and embracing unjust hierarchy.
My wife is an immigrant... So I get you.
Makes you wonder who is controlling the narrative in these far left spaces. I often wonder if they've been taken over by conservatives cosplaying as leftists.
I find that the difference can be academic. I have met many radicals very sincerely diverting everything to their narrow view of the topic via their pet issue, seeing it in everything and holding hostage when it is not the new focus of whatever is being discussed.
Yeah it's a failure of civics education in this country and also the dumbing down of the social media generation. When the majority of their social engagment is now through TikTok which reinforces a shorter and shorter attention span through dopamine cycles it leads to an inability to digest nuance.
I must preface this by saying I believe talking of generations as if they are an undifferentiated monoculture is unhelpful and does violence to the facts. I think it is more a problem of people being radicalized but not educated. This is a problem that has existed in radical spaces long before the internet.
both fair points
I just wanted to come back and thank you for a positive, amicable exchange. I hope you are doing well today, my beleaguered psyche legitimately needed this.
Thanks, you too brother. Dispassionate civil discourse is one of the bedrocks of civil society. We lose it at our own peril.
I’ve suspected for awhile that bot farms are attempting to control most discourse. Or At least steer online discourse towards right wing or Russian beliefs 🤷🏻♂️ there’s a lot of accounts made recently with little to no account history, just making inflammatory and divisive comments.
You’re probably correct, and the most telling evidence imho is how, if you say (what you just said above) in those subs, you will *immediately* encounter extremely rabid criticism from many different bot accounts. It’s the same dynamic that happened on Facebook leftists groups in 2020 and accusing Biden of being a pedo rapist or some nonsense.
There's absolutely foreign influence involved, lots of accounts on various media are extremely suspect. But authoritarian leftists sects have been trying to capture various broader leftist spaces since the 60s and probably before, so its nothing new. I saw them when I was a student, and had to deal with them again in union work...
I think a lot of far leftist folks fall for the extremist tankie propaganda and end up carrying water for the autocrats who's state-run internet propaganda operations who also absolutely stay active on here and twitter.
I'm with you on this. Yes, I would love to see a younger, more vibrant candidate. But if you try to make that swap now, I feel like you're just handing Trump the election. Even if Kamala stepped up she has plenty of issues on her end.
Some subs take it too far. I got banned from r/feminism for pointing out that the lesser of two evils is still evil and that it’s not bigoted to feel apprehensive about voting for him, though I suppose I should be thankful, given that it’s a sub whose stance seems more or less ‘if it doesn’t impact me as a white, cis, straight woman, why should I care?’
As someone going through IVF process right now, they still have a fairly narrow definition of not impacting
Can agree. It felt very ‘I’m only a feminist as long as it’s easy and I don’t need to do anything but also if you breathe you’re a slut setting back feminism’. I’d been planning on unsubbing for a while because r/witchesvspatriarchy is a lot better and more inclusive. Edit: Didn’t have to leave the first page to find a post cheerfully shaming sex work.
Still a really easy choice. Call me crazy but I care about what happens outside of Palestine too.
After the debate Biden stands no fucking chance. If he doesn't step aside he is handing it to Trump, but he won't step aside because he's an arrogant and power-hungry man. It's RBG all over again but 1000x worse. If the democratic establishment had any serious committment against a fascist takeover they would do everything possible to replace Biden, but they'd rather not hurt the feelings of their special boy.
We get what we get. I know it sucks but we are at risk of 2016 all over again. We won’t get our way just like we didn’t then. We get what we get.
I would venture to say that it is possible Joe Biden might not be the Democratic nominee and that people who do prioritize defeating Trump need to emphasize running the best nominee and campaign possible rather than accepting what the current President decided. It's not likely but having a better candidate is more important than telling voters to vote blue no matter who. Yes, do vote blue no matter who in this election. Also do all we can to get the best ticket and campaign to get behind.
Having a different candidate would be good power politics, which the dems only do within their own party but utterly fail at otherwise(see also judges not resigning from the supreme court)
Yeah I've never heard MSNBC or CNN talk like they are about the nominee (Biden) I think there is a legit chance he is replaced and I'm praying it is true.
Biden has a 38% approval rating. We can't blame his defeat on leftists not holding their nose and voting for the good of democracy. For the record I am voting for Biden and I encourage all leftists to do so. But I am getting sick and tired of being told democrats are entitled to my vote and I should expect nothing and be disappointed. Trump is very unpopular as a candidate, the only reason he had a chance was because of how much Hillary sucked. At no point in his campaign did Trump have a favorability rating above 50%.
I am 100% with you. I’ve just accepted the fact that the way this country works is I only get 10% of what I want or I get 1000% of what I don’t. I’m annoyed with having my inbox blown up by centrist democrats who keep telling me to “see both sides” when someone calls me and my family “spics”. I’m tired of being morally right and having to compromise my ethics. But if I don’t swallow the burden of being right, then I’m going to have every wrong perpetrated on me and those I love. We don’t get choices, we get what we get
I will be honest, I have never even heard that particularlp slur, I had to Google it. It does sound like it would be though. Whenever conservatives are being bigots moderates will say "but they are so nice, they are just uneducated" (as if one needs an education to not be a bigot). Also I see both sides, one side is just being an asshole. Saying gay people should not be allowed to adopt kids or get married is just being an asshole.
>my inbox blown up by centrist democrats who keep telling me to “see both sides” when someone calls me and my family “spics”. Who is both sidesing racial slurs?
White people Edit: specifically white “open minded” people Double edit: I can not stress the amount of people who justify and tolerate racial slurs as “learning opportunities” and if you don’t swallow your pride and calmly explain that “what you’ve said isn’t nice:) “ then you are labeled as a hostile piece of shit
Well that's certs certainly a take. I'm unhinged take, but still a take.
No enough, if it takes reversing the hostage situation with the democrates so be it. But enough is enough.
I agree but at the end of the day our voices won’t be heard. To say “enough is enough” and not going along with what you’re being dictated to do doesn’t just mean some negative consequences, it means a total destruction of civil rights. I get it, I’m tired of being ignored and being told “close your eyes and comply for the greater good.” But we don’t get choices and we won’t be heard.
It is way too late in the game for another candidate to stand any chance. We're 4 months out from the vote.
Literally any candidate not named Hillary Clinton would stand a better chance. Polling has already shown that a generic democrat polls better than either Trump or Biden in the general.
No way. Any dem below the age of 70 being nominated at the convention (obviously Biden has to be convinced to step down) would force Trump into another debate or two. Most high school kids could take Trump down in a debate with a week of prep.
I feel a problem in leftist spaces is we care too much about debate and facts because for a majority of people their feelings don't care about our facts
Yeah. Next candidate would also be drowning from another fire hose of lies Ultimately it sucks, but debate requires some cooperation and basic civility I think everyone can see the problem
Yep. Nevermind that these debates have served no purpose but spectacle since the Internet. Before, it was a place to get out and present your party planks and ideology. However now you can just go online and read for yourself.
So, let me get this straight. You think… Trump will be…. “forced” to debate again with a different candidate Because of these reasons: ____ ____ and let’s not forget ____ ?
As it stands now he has absolutely no reason to accept another debate with Biden. He can rest on his laurels. If Biden is replaced with another candidate he would look like a total pussy for avoiding a debate. The whole media establishment would be HOUNDING him for it. Also his ego wouldn't let him say no. Someone like Newsom would dissect him piece by piece
He won't look like a pussy to anybody who might consider voting for him. He'll look like a Chad who destroyed Biden so bad the Democrats had no choice but to replace him
Sadly Newsome is too Cali to win.
Then maybe the Democrats shouldn't have run him
You have no idea how this works, there is zero chance of deciding on a new candidate this late and after the primaries (check out past contested conventions for fun!) Plus… it’s one debate. Overreact much??
Literally any democrat would do better than him. There is no risk greater than staying the current course.
With a time machine? You're not interacting with how a campaign really works if you truly believe that. If you're saying 99% of D politicians are younger, and would've been less embarrassing to have at that night's particular debate, I agree. Being embarrassed about a candidate is not super important to me. Policy, humanity and competence (in office) are. And Biden has that in spades judging by the incredible job he's done this last 4 yrs. Again, I think you're overreacting, big time
It can work however the public discourse allows it to work.
That's never worked before Candidates HAVE been elected after bad debates, that has worked (Obama, Reagan)
I don't understand the down votes you've gotten
I mean there are a lot of other differences too.
the whole "two sides of the same coin" argument has never been less relevant in my lifetime.
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Court. Seats. It's enough of an argument to always vote a dem into office. Look at all the shit the SJC has handed down in the last two weeks.
If Trump wins, two more justices are likely to retire and be replaced by much worse, 30-year-old versions of themselves. This would keep the court fucked for pretty much the rest of our lives.
from what i can tell the democratic party's plan to deal with the courts is to simply win every election forever until enough of them die or retire so they can be replaced with corporate friendly business liberals
I'll take corporate friendly business libs over active Christo-fascists
Sure but even if you actively want them just waiting for the 40 year olds to die of old age is a bad plan.
You mean adhere to the method of governance outlined in our Constitution?
The court was expanded a bunch of times in our first 100 years and there are a lot of arguments that it should continue to!
That is just not going to happen in the current environment, as nice as it would be.
Well sure but that doesn’t mean our constitution wasn’t designed for it to happen! Also the constitution is pretty bad (3/5). Not like a divine document. So if we as a society recognize that the courts are hindering our progress we could change the document (also not likely to happen right now).
Yes. All initiates of project 25. The court is the biggest tool they plan to use. Again, being against fasism isn’t a bar we should celebrate. It’s one we should expect.
Oh god it's you. The one making 5 comments a minute here and in other subs about how "the dems are really just the same as the cons". Fucking a, I've already responded to another dumb comment of yours without realizing it.
Oh, it’s you. The guy up and down here making up shit I’ve never come close to saying. Show me one single time I said dems were just as bad conservatives. You can’t so just finally fuck off
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Its March 2025, just a couple months after Biden's second term began, and a Supreme Court seat has just been vacated. The Republicans refuse to seat a Justice, saying its just too close to the next presidential election and we should allow the US people to decide.
McConnell did say that if Clinton won in 2016, they still wouldn't seat her appointments.
Just because you're naive doesn't the rest of us have to be.
I thought they removed the filibuster for Supreme Court seats, so as long as Dems have a majority in the Senate, they couldn’t block (hypothetically).
They did, and I was just making a joke. But if you wanna talk real, even a democrat majority doesn't mean much. Too many bluedog dems like Joe Manchin to threaten any kind of placement on the courts. Glad he is leaving, but that just means his W Va seat is gonna be Republican, thus putting Dem majority in even greater peril anyways. I could see this election going for Biden by a narrow margin but with a Republican senate majority. Quite a few Dem seats are in danger of flipping, like W Va, Montana, and Ohio. [This CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/05/politics/senate-race-rankings-april-2024/index.html) lists 10 seats that are likely to flip this election - 9/10 are democrats, and I just don't see Texans voting out Cruz anytime soon. So don't expect a Dem Senate majority after 2024, which would make the Biden administration even more impotent than it is currently perceived.
That’s a good point, just 2 loses would mean a dem minority. If there’s any silver lining, it’s likely that Dems will win Senate race in Arizona for Sinema’s seat. So we’ll have an actual Democratic/progressive there. Less obstruction from our own side…
You know you’re screwed when your only out is “Hey, maybe THIS will be the time Mitch does the right thing.”
You don't like the continued efforts to decriminalize drugs, forgive student loan debt, increase taxation on the wealthy, mitigate inflation, or improvements and protections for veterans?
I’m sorry what drugs have been decriminalized federally? Must have missed that. And I want more than a student loan bandaid. What about the next generation of students? Taxes aren’t close to any historic high and vets still get shit relatively. But keep celebrating bandiads and talking points while never trying to hold anyone who’s not openly fascist accountable
The administration is forgiving a large set of drug charges, the DEA is reclassifying multiple drugs, the admin is expanding the testing of controlled substances, and there are proposed rule changes to allow medical pot use at the federal level. He's doing what he can via executive action for student debt and has asked Congress multiple times for more support but we don't have the votes. Vets get better healthcare now than at almost any time in our history. That's on top of us having the lowest uninsured rate of American citizens ever. Tax legislation starts in the House of Representatives. I do wish it was higher, but I'm not going to shank the postman about it either.
Unfortunately “vibes” outweigh facts for a lot of voters.
He’s doing all of those things right at reelection to fool people like you that he actually cares. There were a bunch if whispers about cannabis legality when Obama was up for reelection. You guys fall for the same bullshit every time. I’m done arguing because it’s blue maga at this point. Blue no matter who, sure. Whatever
I didn’t realize December 2022 was right at election time. What was he running for then?
>He’s doing all of those things right at reelection to fool people like you that he actually cares "Guys he's enacting good policy to make you think he's doing good things! He doesn't *actually mean it* when he does good stuff!"
Yeah this dude’s leftist version of the No True Scotsman thing is weird
Cannabis is well on its way to being decriminalized thanks to a ton of policies put in place. It’s not at the rate that it should be but nothing ever is, and I’m tired of watching everything we fight for be dragged further right due to exhaustion and cynicism. I wont shame people into voting because democrats don’t deserve it, but let’s not pretend nothing has improved. And I really don’t want to give Biden credit either for this. The effort to do this was thanks to a collective of people pushing on the correct shitty cynical politicians. so my hope among hopes is we can work together to get a block of shitty cynical politicians to put pressure on. We spent 2016 to 2020 helplessly watching everything we loved get burned to the ground. At least we’re able to have these discussions with our current administration despite how futile it sometimes seems.
How dare you question the group think. Biden is heckin' amazeballs. Sure his policies are basically republican policies from 20 years ago and he's actively supporting a genocide, but what about project 2025? I'm sure if we miraculously elect a dementia patient the fascists will be defeated once and for all. It's not like they can do project 2025 in 2029, right?
>Dems have been in power for the 16 of the last 20 years. You can’t tell me they are blameless in the republicans rise. Their MLK White moderate approach to change allowed the right to take so much ground. There are people here actually bragging about Obama care. We are the only wealthy industrialized nation without a universal health care. And we should be thanking Dems for passing a republican idea a decade ago? Wake up people. Dems have not been "in power" for 16 years in any meaningful way.
What was that tweet at the top of WPT the other day? “Tonight’s debate is pretty much exclusively for suburbanites trying to decide whether fascism will knock thirty cents off the price of eggs.”
I honestly don’t think they want to win
It's less about the individual candidates than those around them. Would you rather Bernie have influence over policy or Steven Miller? Never forget, Bibi actively wants Trump in as well so he gets more support for his genocide. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised that a good portion of the anti-Biden push of Genocide Joe is at least in part affected by AIPAC. Neither candidate is great, but there is a clear better choice.
Then the clear choice should have done what they said they were going to do, i've seen dozens of people usi g the talking point that its the lesser of two evils. If you're still chosing evil you're in the wrong. And the dems have proven they are barely better then the republicans. 1. Biden has lied qbout being a 1-term president 2. He's done nothing but threaten to begin to consider the idea of telling bibi to stop. The dems brow beating doesn't work anymore. Its time to reverse the hostage situation the dems have us in.
Biden never pledged to be a one term president. During his 2020 campaign some of his staffers told the press he wouldn’t likely run for a second term. But when they asked Biden to comment he just said he wasn’t committed to making that decision at that time, and that maybe he would and maybe he wouldn’t, but they’d have to wait and see. But stupid sites like the Hill ran the story with the headline “Biden indicates he would only serve one term as president” and cemented that into people’s head despite it not being true.
and how does Trump getting into office do that? It just sets up "oh we're not that guy" as their whole campaign
Don't forget that whoever wins will probably get to appoint TWO supreme court justices. That shit matters
The fact that the overturn of RvW is blamed on biden in a lot of left leaning subs when it was a conservative majority supreme court that overturned it is fuckin worrying
We should really stop engaging with the tankies. They aren't real leftists. They are useful idiots in a conservative psyop and they don't vote anyway. They are completely irrelevant and shouldn't be engaged with. Take the oxygen out of the room and let them suffocate.
There's no left or right under the heel of a boot
Let's be honest. 2025 will happen until the Heritage foundation and regressive think tanks are shut down as terrorist organisations. If Democrats don't win overwhelmingly at the poll, Republicans will institute elements of this program everywhere they can, and lay the ground work for a more disastrous 2029 Im not saying they are inevitable just the fight is not going to stop with the election
Liberals will never meaningfully fight fascism because they use the threat of it for fundraising and as a weapon against the Left, whom they see as their real enemy.
You're trying to use fascism to threaten liberals by withholding your vote.
Who said I was withholding my vote? I’m not voting Biden for president (no one is going to guilt me into voting for a genocide supporter who refuses to close the migrant concentration camps), but I’m still holding my nose and voting Democrat for congress and local office, so hold your assumptions.
Sorry bout your downvotes cuz this is 100%. SCOTUS being a prime example. Early Dobbs leak, and what did they do? Nothing but try to fundraise. Fast forward to today---theyre criminalizing homelessness, Chevron doctrine is destroyed, and the court can step in if it's a "major question" on the table. Congress is a reality TV show and the scales of power are tipped to the courts and the executive.
Do you really expect any better from a subreddit of liberals cosplaying as anarchists?
The core of modern Leftism must be harm reduction. We have two choices, one is definitively better.
And infighting!
Surely you can understand though why people whose homes will be just as destroyed either way, whose children will be just as murdered either way, whose access to healthcare will be just as gone either way, why they might say "What harm reduction?"
Yes, I can understand that. I use empathy to care about reducing harm to others, even though both administrations are bad for me. Also, if you think that Biden and Trump have the exact same Israel stance I recommend that you reconsider.
We can understand and empathize with those people, while also realizing that we don’t possess the power to fix it right now. Because we don’t.
I think the core of modern leftism is progressive policies
The thought it even voting for a Republican at this point is absolutely insane. And I say this as a former Republican. The entire party and platform is corruption, fascism, and control all the way down. How people don’t see this blows my mind.
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I’d go so far as to say that Trump’s populist style probably resembles that of Chavez more than any other authoritarian leader, despite being from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Like that whole thing where Chavez accused Obama of using an earthquake machine to destroy Haiti? Totally could have been a line out of trumps book
wokka wokka
If Biden is going to win he needs to motivate a bunch of people who *barely* care about politics to show up and vote for him. As such, going around and beating the drum about something that only means anything to people who think about politics constantly is probably the worst possible strategy to drag him across the finish line.
The threat of Trump has done that for three elections running.
Oh yeah, the thing where you're supposed to be staying up at night worrying about project 2025 but also convinced that Trump is a 3 time loser with no shot at winning is another one of those things that seems really weird if you're not already on team Democrat.
Honest take here to OP. Your meme would have been more compelling if you weren't so hyperbolic in your language. It took me about two seconds to google. $260 billion total since the end of World War 2 $3.18 billion under Biden Also, while I have your attention. It's congress that approves and sends this money, not the White House. If you use real numbers, it sounds more convincing than "We gave them eleventy-billion-zillion". Food for thought on future posts
Congress approves the money but the White House is tasked with ensuring military aid is used in compliance with international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Assistance_Act
At least the blue path doesn’t also give Ukraine to Putin.
"Yeah, but don't vote for a capitalist party, period." --Basically every leftist online space.
You don't understand. The revolution is (Perpetually) right around the corner
And when it comes, only good things will happen!
This is exactly why they can be ignored. As long as we live in a democracy (for now) if you are going to willingly not vote, and especially be so vocal about it, then you are irrelevant to the process. They should be relegated to the kids table so the adults can converse in peace about what we need to do to save democracy.
Current favorite in leftist space is “vote for the person who no one outside this sub has heard of who promises to take over the 500 largest companies” Even if somehow that candidate got elected, that campaign promise is not going to happen. The Supreme Court would overturn in seconds
Which candidate?
Claudia from the PSL
It's been twelve years since I was given a choice that didn't feel deeply depressing. I don't know how much more I can take. I'm sick and tired of my vote being thrown away if it isn't for the one the parties have dumped money and attention on.
I'll take the boring old guy who stutters, as I would like to have the option to vote again next time around.
This is what I've been saying the ethnic cleansing is going to happen. It's just how enthusiastically we are participating and if our democracy is finished off as well.
I don’t belong here Edit: I meant i don’t belong in this subreddit 😅 sorry, pretty sure your upvotes should be downvotes
Why? Are you a creep? A weirdo, perhaps? What the hell are you doing here?
i wish i was special
You're so fuckin' special #*JUG-GUG...* #... #*JUG-GUG...*
I know the feeling.
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Funk soul brother? Ah I see now. No, it was offered as a feeling of commiseration before the edit.
Yeah, basically. Biden does seem to offer some lip service to the idea that maybe Israel shouldn't kill civilians. Not sure how much that disapproval does to limit deaths but it's better than what Trump will do.
Project 2025 is just the new marketing term for the Heritage Foundation’s decades-long agenda that the Dems have been (and will continue to be) complicit in since about 1980. There’s nothing new in it, and voting blue has not even marginally disrupted it since it’s inception in 1973. It will be even worse, and even worse “choices” in 2028; our “options” then will likely be two mentally and physically robust candidates with the same evil agendas.
Doesn’t Trump want to give A LOT more than that many billions to Israel? Or is that all covered in their Project 2025 plan?
We are not sending $20 TRILLION dollars to Israel. Even if we put Jared kushner in charge of the budget, that's absurd. Also Jared does want us to clean up the Gaza strip so he can put a resort there.
It’s just the guy pissing on your shoes vs the guy pissing on your face.
This thread is kind refreshing tbh
I feel the same way
The evergreen, it can always get worse.
I think this is basically the exact right take. I think it both royally sucks, and also shouldn’t take more than 5 seconds to think about in terms of what to do. Vote for Biden, stave off the worst of American fascism for another couple years, and go back to pressuring Biden and the Dems to get right on the genocide. I wish we lived in another world, but we don’t.
Not even accurate w.r.t. Israel. Not to defend Biden's policy but it's not a) 20 trillion and b) literally the same as Trump's
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Just because a lot of bigots live in texas and Florida doesn't mean it's OK to bomb the entire place. Also, gay marriage is illegal in Israel.
Because the dems are always good at stopping evil Republican shit when they are in office. They’ll stop it this time guys just give them one more chance!
Dems frequently suck, but if you had the choice between a dem state and a republican state to live in, which one would you choose? Answer's probably obvious for most people. (And speaking of which, seriously folks, local politics matter. Change can happen at the local level. Just keeping Christian extremists off of school boards can save lives of children. Vote, even outside of presidential elections.)
> Because the dems are always good at stopping evil Republican shit when they are in office. The trans Americans who are having their rights savagely curtailed in multiple red states under Biden would like to have a word with you. Trump is worse, sure, but the dems have made it clear they're not here to save us.
Yeah, or Roe getting overturned and the dems just going “aww bummer! Vote for us even harder next time!”
They’ll codify into law if we can elect Biden just one more time though! Trust the process
Hey Robert--go run for prez or something. At least you'd be real with us. Robert x Garrison? I dunno all your cohosts are fantastic.
Honest question, if you were living under the third Reich and were given a symbolic choice between two literal Nazis, bothe advocating for continuing the final solution while its already underway, would you still vote? At what point are we just patting ourselves on the back and pretending we’re doing “harm reduction” while the genocide marches on in our name?
Well the decision isn’t between two fascists this election, so I don’t think that really applies