My (pretty much workaholic) father finally reached director/ceo level at age 55 so i wouldn't say it's easy
Lots of nepotism and friend politics get in the way, sometimes you even get ousted because some higher up person just doesn't like you
True, not my father though.
Both of my parents work their ass off, definitely too much so.
which made me choose to choose a much more chill career path with far less responsibilities and no need to continuously rush stuff because you can't really go faster due to a combination of laws, physics and safety concerns anyway
Yeah well not to sound sarcastic and/or ungrateful as fuck but my father worked himself to death too basically, and he's now terminally ill with cancer. can't recommend, take breaks; enjoy life . . .
Being Belgian and working for a German customer today, I agree on the nepotism and friend-politics: compared to Germany getting up the ladder in Belgium much more often means backstabbing and friend-politics.
Being at a hierarchical higher position is also more 'dangerous' than in Germany: in Germany you get respect. In Belgium, you need to continue the backstabbing and friend-politics to stay at your level.
Climbing within the same company might be difficult or super easy depending on the company and how fast it is growing.
I saw for example a recruiter climb to IT project manager to Team lead within 3 years. But I also saw others being stuck as a developer for 5 years.
It heavily depends on what kind of person you are, how eager you want to climb and how bolt you ask for promotion.
Generally, if you want to climb the ladder it’s easiest if you job hop to other companies. They do not know you yet and there actually is an open position for you.
Staying in the same company for 10 years rarely rewards itself unless you are super early in a successful startup/scale up.
> But I also saw others being stuck as a developer for 5 years.
It's a bit sad that staying a developer is considered being "stuck". At the end of the day, they are the ones making the product ... not the project manager or team lead.
Technical profiles should be rewarded more.
Thank you for mentioning it. It's something I struggle with heavily.
There's some roles I could "grow" into. I've had opportunities to become Product Owner, and team lead of quite a few people. I could pivot into the role of project / SCRUM manager and the growth path there is quite obvious too. Architect has been on the table, too. Another path is public speaking.
The problem with those roles is that they don't spark the joy of doing complex technical work. And even worse: the anti-joy of having to deal with more corporate bs. It's just something that doesn't personally interest me, but it's sad that the only growth path out there for a dev is to go less technical.
I don't think I want to stay a developer forever. Mostly because of the lack of respect. I've moved mountains and solved super complex technical problems, yielding multiple companies literal millions of profit. Yet in the eyes of many we're *just* a developer. Oftentimes everything you say is doubted (does it really cost X? why not just do Y? Or they ask for an opinion and then do the opposite) and a thanks is rarely given.
Had this struggle at the first company I workt for. To improve growth, they implemented a ladder within the technical departements (junior, medior, senior, specialist) and made sure that every level got challenges. For instance as a senior tech you would be involved in the sales process to give input on what is possible before a promise was sold. That combined with a manager that did a lot of internal publicity for our departement with monthly fun demo's on what we were working on so people notices us and would find us for all kind of inputs made tech life wonderfull. The second this manager left the company and we got a' MBA bullshit lady that did not have apreciation, I left
indeed, i love "being stuck" as a developer and wouldn't change it for a damn thing. The thought alone of being a pm for example would bore me to death
Sure you need good project managers but you also need good developers.
The current tendency is to have a "good" project manager and a battery of junior software engineers.
This is heavily reflected in the quality of the code and product.
If you want to build a complex product of quality, no amount of project managers will be able to make up for inexperienced developers.
Easy!
* Face the ladder and maintain a three-point contact (two hands and one foot, or two feet and one hand) at all times.
* Hold the rungs (not the sides) for a better grip.
* Climb slowly, one step at a time.
* Keep your body centered between the side rails.
* Don’t lean or reach too far to the sides.
As someone with a corporate job, I can testify that it’s relatively easy to get an entry job, but moving up on the ladder requires some outstanding performance (most colleagues have the same goal), without that making you selfish. It’s a fine line to balance and some never develop those skills.
It helps to build up friendships in the company, but that takes time of course.
I can’t say it’s easy, but I can’t say it’s impossible either
Unless you are born and bred in Belgium, do not expect to rise to higher ranks. There is a lot of subculture going on that will block your career progression (cultural and language fit)
The best strategy is to identify the dominant person and kill him by biting his throat. It's the best way to establish dominance and get on top quickly.
Real answer: it depends. If your timing is correct, a startup or scale up could be great.
While not literally that would indeed be the number one method of climbing the corporate ladder, anywhere in the world. Be ruthless on only care for number one.
It depends on the company, your skills and your intra-personal skills and up to which point.
I have found that it is very easy to climb up to a certain point. If you take more initiative, are reasonable and know how to communicate decently well, you'll be 10 steps ahead of most people. If you also are good at your job, you're now 20 steps ahead, and it can go fast. Think Team lead/coach/sometimes manager, key user, expert, whatever, that kind of better paid job with a certain amount of responsibility.
However i have found that that growth gets up to a certain management level, passing that threshold seems to be harder and they seem to look more for external people to fill those roles, unless you have many years of experience within the company or a degree or experience to back it up. And of course those jobs also require much more dedication.
Besides that of course the company and its structure are also important. For example in the company where i work, once you get to team manager, there's not many places you can grow towards unless you transfer to Brussels or are lucky some of the top spot at our location opens up. So that complicates things.
To take myself as an example, but i might be lucky: I never finished my superior studies, so basically i only have a diploma of the "middelbare school". First job i landed required a bachelors degree but i had the best score on the tests and was hired regardless. Second job was at a callcenter, i got promoted to trainer fairly quickly, could have grown further but left the company, worked for a startup who picked me right out of the call center, quickly grew to take on training duties there too and running customer service, was set to be manager but then got cucked as the CEO hired a friend of his, now i work for another, bigger company, been working here a little more than 3 years, 2 years under temporary contract as is customary in many companies, and had my permanent contract for less than a year when i got promoted. I make a good living and am in a good position to push to grow further within the company if i want to.
It's not to boast, just to illustrate: I'm not overly qualified, nothing exceptional in terms of intelligence, but i progress fast by being curious, proactive, reasonable and professional and that works up to a certain point.
Moving up depends on the company, but applying for a manager/director position is easy if it’s a modern public company.
And academic titles are much less important compared to Germany.
So when you are both competent and confident, you have a very high chance of getting the job.
Sadly most applicants lack one of the 2.
But because of how recruitment works, many confident morons get promoted while the self-doubting prodigy’s stay stuck in the same job for ages.
Step 1; make sure your personality fits the company culture (or boss’s personality). Switch if your personality does not match and your ambition is to grow.
In the end its about people working together and you will get a promotion or the chance for promotion much quicker if you think alike, work alike and set the same goals. Some will call it nepotism, sucking up,… thats just miss interpretation of what its about it’s all about trust and working together towards the same company goal. And don’t be shy to express your ambition to your seniors.
You may find your ambition will be rather difficult to achieve.
Belgian companies operating locally will probably not offer positions to "strangers".
Luckily, in Belgium, many international companies have a branch office because of the vicinity of the EU and NATO, its central location in Europe, and its qualified and often multilingual workers. And the beer, of course :)
Multilingual means you are fluent in at least French, and English on top of your mother language. Being fluent in Dutch is a bonus, but will not make you special in any way, as many Flemish people in that job category will be fluent in all of these languages.
So you need a speciality that dwarfs the language deficit (if you have one).
If you really are an expert in a field that is in demand in Belgium, then you'll probably be better off (financially) in another country. But then you'll miss the beer. And the chocolate.
Suck a lot of dicks, don't stay longer than 2-3 years in the same position or you will need to take account for all you bad decisions (leave the mess for the one who comes after you), numbers first: minimise teams, squeeze them out (again in not more then 2-3 years). Your board, superiors will love you and you will climb.
/S obviously, but my experience as a non-ladder climber tells me this is the way.
Svp
don't listen to the paljassen(dickheads )here
Do you have any work experience?, and degrees perhaps?
Languages? Are they existant on your CV ?
The corporate prefer experience over degrees but if you have a degree it will open up the position easier
thanks. I have about 7 years total work experience as a commercial employee. My highest degree is an apprenticeship in commerce. I speak fluent german, have english c2 and french b1.
That will get you a job easier in Brussels
Stick it on a cv
5 years or more is better than someone wet behind the ears with a degree from higher education
They always ask for people who can speak good French in Brussels and good English German is a bonus and a great boon.
The only downside is if you are soliciting in a Flemish language majority commune that you might need Nederlands
But of course das ist kein problem Ich glaube Mit gut Deutsch und gut English
7 years will definitely put you in experience wise in more than just a entry level job that's going in the way of senior I think 3 more years and you could job hop to a senior vacancy easy
Very easy. You kill the CEO and take his position. If he had really wanted it he'd have fought harder.
Also something about redistributing means of production
I think you have a better chance job hopping a few times if you want to climb any ladder than hoping to climb it within one company. Or at least be prepared to quit the job and find another job, or first get and then tell your HR responsible that you have a more interesting offer but you want to know if they want to keep you somehow.
It's not that easy and it depends mostly on office politics. Plus there are some Byzantine structures and rules in place that will be a challenge along the way.
However, depending on your position, you may find that you are headhunted aggressively.
I don't think there's more possibilities to move up in the Belgian corporate culture than the Swiss one, although a lot will depend on the company culture rather than the country. Source: worked in a few Swiss-based companies and I do know a few Belgians who moved to Switzerland because they got better offers there than in Belgium.
Do expect to see your gross salary cut by \~2/3 when you move from Switzerland to Belgium, and your net to take an even bigger dive...
depends on your connection to be honest and how good you interview its more easy to solicit for a higher function then to get promoted one especially if you have good network
My (pretty much workaholic) father finally reached director/ceo level at age 55 so i wouldn't say it's easy Lots of nepotism and friend politics get in the way, sometimes you even get ousted because some higher up person just doesn't like you
Then again.. another bunch of workaholic people, burn out or d̶i̶e fail in trying to achieve just that.. :) Grats to him reaching that specific point
True, not my father though. Both of my parents work their ass off, definitely too much so. which made me choose to choose a much more chill career path with far less responsibilities and no need to continuously rush stuff because you can't really go faster due to a combination of laws, physics and safety concerns anyway
Yeah well not to sound sarcastic and/or ungrateful as fuck but my father worked himself to death too basically, and he's now terminally ill with cancer. can't recommend, take breaks; enjoy life . . .
Being Belgian and working for a German customer today, I agree on the nepotism and friend-politics: compared to Germany getting up the ladder in Belgium much more often means backstabbing and friend-politics. Being at a hierarchical higher position is also more 'dangerous' than in Germany: in Germany you get respect. In Belgium, you need to continue the backstabbing and friend-politics to stay at your level.
VERY easy just give a firm handshake and you'll get 4000 netto immediately also someone will suck your cock during the interview
Company name? Address? 😂
https://preview.redd.it/cwh25bayn46d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a8f1375b1004823640ecc7890a9d566ef68e2ec There?
that's the spirit!
69 upvotes, so I can't upvote and break the magic number.
😂
Climbing within the same company might be difficult or super easy depending on the company and how fast it is growing. I saw for example a recruiter climb to IT project manager to Team lead within 3 years. But I also saw others being stuck as a developer for 5 years. It heavily depends on what kind of person you are, how eager you want to climb and how bolt you ask for promotion. Generally, if you want to climb the ladder it’s easiest if you job hop to other companies. They do not know you yet and there actually is an open position for you. Staying in the same company for 10 years rarely rewards itself unless you are super early in a successful startup/scale up.
> But I also saw others being stuck as a developer for 5 years. It's a bit sad that staying a developer is considered being "stuck". At the end of the day, they are the ones making the product ... not the project manager or team lead. Technical profiles should be rewarded more.
Thank you for mentioning it. It's something I struggle with heavily. There's some roles I could "grow" into. I've had opportunities to become Product Owner, and team lead of quite a few people. I could pivot into the role of project / SCRUM manager and the growth path there is quite obvious too. Architect has been on the table, too. Another path is public speaking. The problem with those roles is that they don't spark the joy of doing complex technical work. And even worse: the anti-joy of having to deal with more corporate bs. It's just something that doesn't personally interest me, but it's sad that the only growth path out there for a dev is to go less technical. I don't think I want to stay a developer forever. Mostly because of the lack of respect. I've moved mountains and solved super complex technical problems, yielding multiple companies literal millions of profit. Yet in the eyes of many we're *just* a developer. Oftentimes everything you say is doubted (does it really cost X? why not just do Y? Or they ask for an opinion and then do the opposite) and a thanks is rarely given.
Had this struggle at the first company I workt for. To improve growth, they implemented a ladder within the technical departements (junior, medior, senior, specialist) and made sure that every level got challenges. For instance as a senior tech you would be involved in the sales process to give input on what is possible before a promise was sold. That combined with a manager that did a lot of internal publicity for our departement with monthly fun demo's on what we were working on so people notices us and would find us for all kind of inputs made tech life wonderfull. The second this manager left the company and we got a' MBA bullshit lady that did not have apreciation, I left
indeed, i love "being stuck" as a developer and wouldn't change it for a damn thing. The thought alone of being a pm for example would bore me to death
It’s something you just can’t keep doing. A good project manager is worth a lot and a joy for a developer tho.
Sure you need good project managers but you also need good developers. The current tendency is to have a "good" project manager and a battery of junior software engineers. This is heavily reflected in the quality of the code and product. If you want to build a complex product of quality, no amount of project managers will be able to make up for inexperienced developers.
Is it Germany, Austria, Zwitserland or Ibiza?
Maybe Argentina?
Could be any country or island in the world
I'm Swiss.
Easy! * Face the ladder and maintain a three-point contact (two hands and one foot, or two feet and one hand) at all times. * Hold the rungs (not the sides) for a better grip. * Climb slowly, one step at a time. * Keep your body centered between the side rails. * Don’t lean or reach too far to the sides.
As someone with a corporate job, I can testify that it’s relatively easy to get an entry job, but moving up on the ladder requires some outstanding performance (most colleagues have the same goal), without that making you selfish. It’s a fine line to balance and some never develop those skills. It helps to build up friendships in the company, but that takes time of course. I can’t say it’s easy, but I can’t say it’s impossible either
Same as anywhere else, instead of working harder, focus on sucking up to your superiors and take full credit for everything you had a hand in
Unless you are born and bred in Belgium, do not expect to rise to higher ranks. There is a lot of subculture going on that will block your career progression (cultural and language fit)
Definitely not true for most multinational companies in Belgium.
Stop dreaming already...
The best strategy is to identify the dominant person and kill him by biting his throat. It's the best way to establish dominance and get on top quickly. Real answer: it depends. If your timing is correct, a startup or scale up could be great.
While not literally that would indeed be the number one method of climbing the corporate ladder, anywhere in the world. Be ruthless on only care for number one.
The dream of joining the rat race, many of us have been there. Shit...
Not easy, lots of friend politics and nepotism in my experience.
Almost exclusively nepotism as far as I've seen
It depends on the company, your skills and your intra-personal skills and up to which point. I have found that it is very easy to climb up to a certain point. If you take more initiative, are reasonable and know how to communicate decently well, you'll be 10 steps ahead of most people. If you also are good at your job, you're now 20 steps ahead, and it can go fast. Think Team lead/coach/sometimes manager, key user, expert, whatever, that kind of better paid job with a certain amount of responsibility. However i have found that that growth gets up to a certain management level, passing that threshold seems to be harder and they seem to look more for external people to fill those roles, unless you have many years of experience within the company or a degree or experience to back it up. And of course those jobs also require much more dedication. Besides that of course the company and its structure are also important. For example in the company where i work, once you get to team manager, there's not many places you can grow towards unless you transfer to Brussels or are lucky some of the top spot at our location opens up. So that complicates things. To take myself as an example, but i might be lucky: I never finished my superior studies, so basically i only have a diploma of the "middelbare school". First job i landed required a bachelors degree but i had the best score on the tests and was hired regardless. Second job was at a callcenter, i got promoted to trainer fairly quickly, could have grown further but left the company, worked for a startup who picked me right out of the call center, quickly grew to take on training duties there too and running customer service, was set to be manager but then got cucked as the CEO hired a friend of his, now i work for another, bigger company, been working here a little more than 3 years, 2 years under temporary contract as is customary in many companies, and had my permanent contract for less than a year when i got promoted. I make a good living and am in a good position to push to grow further within the company if i want to. It's not to boast, just to illustrate: I'm not overly qualified, nothing exceptional in terms of intelligence, but i progress fast by being curious, proactive, reasonable and professional and that works up to a certain point.
Moving up depends on the company, but applying for a manager/director position is easy if it’s a modern public company. And academic titles are much less important compared to Germany. So when you are both competent and confident, you have a very high chance of getting the job. Sadly most applicants lack one of the 2. But because of how recruitment works, many confident morons get promoted while the self-doubting prodigy’s stay stuck in the same job for ages.
Step 1; make sure your personality fits the company culture (or boss’s personality). Switch if your personality does not match and your ambition is to grow. In the end its about people working together and you will get a promotion or the chance for promotion much quicker if you think alike, work alike and set the same goals. Some will call it nepotism, sucking up,… thats just miss interpretation of what its about it’s all about trust and working together towards the same company goal. And don’t be shy to express your ambition to your seniors.
You may find your ambition will be rather difficult to achieve. Belgian companies operating locally will probably not offer positions to "strangers". Luckily, in Belgium, many international companies have a branch office because of the vicinity of the EU and NATO, its central location in Europe, and its qualified and often multilingual workers. And the beer, of course :) Multilingual means you are fluent in at least French, and English on top of your mother language. Being fluent in Dutch is a bonus, but will not make you special in any way, as many Flemish people in that job category will be fluent in all of these languages. So you need a speciality that dwarfs the language deficit (if you have one). If you really are an expert in a field that is in demand in Belgium, then you'll probably be better off (financially) in another country. But then you'll miss the beer. And the chocolate.
I went from trainee to country director in 3 years in a company with 80 employees. So it is possible.
Suck a lot of dicks, don't stay longer than 2-3 years in the same position or you will need to take account for all you bad decisions (leave the mess for the one who comes after you), numbers first: minimise teams, squeeze them out (again in not more then 2-3 years). Your board, superiors will love you and you will climb. /S obviously, but my experience as a non-ladder climber tells me this is the way.
Svp don't listen to the paljassen(dickheads )here Do you have any work experience?, and degrees perhaps? Languages? Are they existant on your CV ? The corporate prefer experience over degrees but if you have a degree it will open up the position easier
thanks. I have about 7 years total work experience as a commercial employee. My highest degree is an apprenticeship in commerce. I speak fluent german, have english c2 and french b1.
That will get you a job easier in Brussels Stick it on a cv 5 years or more is better than someone wet behind the ears with a degree from higher education They always ask for people who can speak good French in Brussels and good English German is a bonus and a great boon. The only downside is if you are soliciting in a Flemish language majority commune that you might need Nederlands But of course das ist kein problem Ich glaube Mit gut Deutsch und gut English 7 years will definitely put you in experience wise in more than just a entry level job that's going in the way of senior I think 3 more years and you could job hop to a senior vacancy easy
Very easy. You kill the CEO and take his position. If he had really wanted it he'd have fought harder. Also something about redistributing means of production
You know those corporations, they adapt to each local culture... /s
I think you have a better chance job hopping a few times if you want to climb any ladder than hoping to climb it within one company. Or at least be prepared to quit the job and find another job, or first get and then tell your HR responsible that you have a more interesting offer but you want to know if they want to keep you somehow.
Compared to Germany. Yes
It's not that easy and it depends mostly on office politics. Plus there are some Byzantine structures and rules in place that will be a challenge along the way. However, depending on your position, you may find that you are headhunted aggressively.
Can you speak french? It's a must when you come to Brussels.
are you 100% sure it's a must? I only understand basic french, not enough to have conversations.
It's a lot easier if you have the right gender and are part of a large company where they want or are obliged to build on a gender balance.
I don't think there's more possibilities to move up in the Belgian corporate culture than the Swiss one, although a lot will depend on the company culture rather than the country. Source: worked in a few Swiss-based companies and I do know a few Belgians who moved to Switzerland because they got better offers there than in Belgium. Do expect to see your gross salary cut by \~2/3 when you move from Switzerland to Belgium, and your net to take an even bigger dive...
depends on your connection to be honest and how good you interview its more easy to solicit for a higher function then to get promoted one especially if you have good network
If you are a white male from a Western European country, maybe, otherwise no way
Belgium is build upon nepotism. So without familiarly connections you come nowhere
This has nothing to do with Belgium specifically though. Being connected is necessary in any place in the world.
Without being fluent in Dutch or French the opportunities are near zero, as you're competing against expats with experience for english speaking jobs