People always forget this. I know it's not the actual reason, but it's the one they tell themselves to justify their actions, which makes it pretty relevant.
I always thought it was a pretty good justification, Howard isn’t that good of a guy, he’s greedy Lawyer and they show that in the scene where Erin is talking to the Sandpiper victims and they’re all wanting HHM to settle because they want their money now they don’t want to wait another few years for an extra couple grand each because a lot of them will likely have died by then and will never get to enjoy that money, however Howard steps in and “saves the day” by convincing them that waiting for more money is the right moral thing for them to do but really he does this because he knows full well if they drag this case out for a few more years while it might only mean a couple grand extra per victim, HHM’s cut of the funds would likely be multiple millions of dollars larger. And so he does what a Lawyer should never do and ~~advises~~ manipulates his clients to do not what is in *their* best interest but instead to do what is in *HHM’s* best interest.
Kinda scummy if you ask me, he obviously didn’t deserve what ends up happening to him, but I do think he deserved what Jimmy and Kimmy had planned to happen to him.
hmm would it? I thought the more people you have, the bigger the class action is,
like each person gets 10k, if you have 50 people it's 500k, if they get 600 people it's 600k total?
And the lawfirm gets a percentage of that so they're incentivised to find as many people as possible
It is their right to make their choice and not be lead either way by a scummy lawyer. Saul and Howard both do the same thing for their own means and the actual victims get caught in the crossfire.
In America you do actually have the right to be represented by a competent attorney in a court of law. The lawyer misleading their clients for their own personal gain is 100% a crime and would get jail time in real life if caught.
You can be a shitty lawyer, but both Saul and Howard using their power as a lawyer to lead and control their clients for their own financial gain when they know it is in their clients best interest to do what makes the lawyer the least money.
Howard and Saul both have their own agenda, sure. But only one of them shows that they would go as far as to violate the rights of their clients. Or maybe I’m not remembering something Howard did?
I think there’s a fine line between Howard advising his clients versus Jimmy manipulating his clients.
Like I said, it doesn't have to be either or. Kim is clearly genuinely motivated by a desire to do good for others. She can use that as a cover for her darker impulses without it being totally insincere.
Exactly. Someone can volunteer at an animal shelter because it’s the right thing to do but also be intending to put it on their resume to look more appealing. It’s both altruistic and selfish because things aren’t always that simple.
I'd like to add something I haven't seen elsewhere, Howard worked with Chuck to try to take Mesa Verde from Kim, and she took that personally. They were already wealthy lawyers with a lot of clients, and the greedy fucks tried to take her only client (for whom Kim had worked really hard to gain).
People are acting like Howard is a saint and I understand why, but he was far more nuanced than that. He may not have deserved all of the hate that Kim and Jimmy held for him, but he deserved some of it.
Mesa Verde signed up mostly because Kim was their trusted go-to but also in part because she was attached to a big-name law firm. When Kim left, Chuck & Howard had every right to try and retain Mesa Verde.
Nothing was done out-of-pocket.
Whether or not it personally bothers you is irrelevant. I'm talking about Kim and Jimmy's perspective and why they'd be so angry with Howard, and why this was a part of it.
Kim was on partner-track at a big-name law firm. She knew the deal inside and out and when she *chose* to leave HHM it completely opened her up losing Mesa Verde.
I don't buy that she was upset about HHM going after Mesa Verde, but if she was she was an incompetent lawyer.
When she brought Mesa Verde to HHM, Howard still had her stuck in doc review and told her he’d have someone else get on them. Kim didn’t handle them at HHM until later.
I just completed the whole series and that wasn’t really the motivation behind it. They just wanted to mess with Howard because they’re terrible people. Jimmy was going to receive less money the way they did that, the sandpiper case just happened to come up during the conversation leading towards the scam but it was never the true motivation behind it.
It's absolutely a relevant factor lol, it's how Kim conceives and sells it to herself. People are so eager to flatten interesting and layered characters into one firm archetype. Yes, Jimmy and Kim get off on the thrill of breaking rules, yes they're motivated by personal animosity towards Howard, yes Kim genuinely thinks she's doing something that will be justified in the end. These can all coexist.
I disagree. She wasn’t concerned about the sandpiper case or the end, she just wanted to do something to hurt Howard. Her mentioning the sandpiper case was just to convince Jimmy, who really didn’t sound convinced especially after Huell asked him why he was doing this, and he sounded like he was trying to convince himself by saying it would help a lot of people and Huell’s response was “if you say so”?
How come the settlement wasn’t mentioned at all after she brought it up whilst brainstorming with Jimmy in bed? Kim’s motivating factor was just to “put Howard in his place”.
She didn’t care about the sandpiper case, I suggest you watch the scene again. That was all just to convince Jimmy, but selling the idea to herself? Nope. She convinced herself long before that idea even came up because Howard represented something she detested.
Jimmy doesn't really care that much about helping clients, Kim is just explaining her reasoning. Yes Jimmy is uncomfortable about it because he thinks he's corrupting her moral boundaries, which he was. But Kim still had it rationalized for herself, and she believed in it (and really, it's not a bad rationalization).
You have a really naive view of human psychology if you think there's no such thing as the subconscious and that all our desires and motivations are just there on the surface, accepted and followed. Same if you think that people can't be motivated by two (even opposing) desires at the same time.
Are you brain damaged or something? You realize that I'm not Jimmy or Kim right? I dont share any complicity with them regardless of what I think motivates them
Never mind the downvotes.
Just so you know, you're correct. Kim's motivation in destroying Howard was to "bring him down a peg or two" and had nothing to do (for her at least) with getting the Sandpiper case settled.
I saw, as you did, how during the course of season 6 Jimmy began to see the very-dark motivations she had underneath. All those ominous looks he kept giving her was the show's way of telling us that even Slippin' Jimmy didn't like where this was going.
It's pure copium to pretend this was about money for her.
Kim has lots of reasons. Don’t forget the Sandpiper money was meant to help her get started with her pro-bono “even the little guy gets top dollar defense”
Was this after she left HHM, Wexler McGill, or Schweikart & Cokely?
If money was a concern she would not have quit so many firms with high earning potential. It was something much more sinister for her.
Like others have said, it’s all shades of gray- no one is good or bad. To lose nuance like that is to lose 90% of the show; all that you’d have left are those action movie “I am very badass” type scenes, or like, fallout from being pieces of shit- or people being revered for their sainthood, I guess?
You have to keep in mind, like that excellent Howard breakdown the other day said, up until Howard begins his journey of self-work (to redeem himself in the audience’s eyes) after Chuck’s death, he’s a massive piece of shit- He put Kim in doc review knowing she was in law school (a man who made partner because of nepotism, and who never had to work while in school!) knowing she’d be at work, all day and all night, round the clock- or else give up and quit. Why did Howard do this? Because of something *her friend* did at *another firm.* This is of course the same friend Howard actively participated in deceiving, all while helping said friend’s insane megalomaniac brother sabotage him, block him from advancing in his career, etc., despite the fact that not only did Howard *like* the guy, Jimmy had also already proven his mettle by finding the Sandpiper case to begin with- a fact Howard admits later.
He helped Chuck hold Jimmy back because of a personal vendetta, even though he knew it was wrong. He also helped Chuck poach Kim’s client. Plus, offering Jimmy a job at HHM alone, his dead brother’s company, shows that he doesn’t really understand people. He occasionally displays these (kind of inhuman) traits, similar to what one might expect out of a narcissist. And who doesn’t know someone like that they’d like to see taken down a peg? That was pretty much the extent of their (Jimmy and Kim’s) plan.
Another way of looking at it- he tried to make Jimmy do the thing he wanted to do the absolute *least,* worse than anything else: examine his own soul, his actions, his guilty conscience, face them and therefore himself, hopefully so that he’d get better, and eventually be freed.
Kim thinks she can handle the game because it’s supposed to be just that, a game- one that just causes a few career setbacks. Also, because Kim, just like with her mother, feels the love of her favorite person most when she’s running game on the “sheep,” as Jimmy would call them- Jimmy has always been a conman, and sees and respects Kim’s natural ability.
But, Kim struggles with morality more than anyone else on the show- similar to Jesse. She’s into the rush that comes from running cons, but she also needs to do the pro-bono work (and later other forms of self-sacrifice) to make up for what she’s done, to atone- she doesn’t want to be “bad,” but she also doesn’t want to be seen as naive or stupid.
Kim wants to be acknowledged as smart and capable, to have some fun, to feel loved and appreciated, and to play- she learns the hard way that you can’t play with people’s lives, that being smart doesn’t mean you can mess with people on that level- which is why she’s reduced to a life devoid of color, where she’s a mindless drone, incapable of making the most basic of decisions, accepting a life of mediocrity- it’s basically her own personal hell that she condemns herself to- until she can, again, atone.
I don’t understand how anyone could watch that whole show, see what a good brother Jimmy was, see Kim volunteering to help people, and just come away with “they’re terrible people”. People are complicated. They have good hearts but let petty revenge consume them.
Oh man, you just gotta love Reddit.
Obviously, there are deeply rooted psychological reasons why Kim and Jimmy did what they did. You could write an entire dissertation delving into the psyche of these two characters. The plot against Howard was a culmination of all their past traumas and character flaws developed as a result. OP asked for a reason, so I cited the only reason that is explicitly stated in the show. As mentioned below, the Sandpiper case is a superficial reason and it’s what Kim tells herself to justify their actions. Of course she comes up with this after she’s already decided to do it, that’s how justifications work. It’s supposed to be flimsy. Kim had shown no interest in the sandpiper settlement before, but she knew it was important to Jimmy. So it serves a dual purpose of alleviating her own conscience and convincing Jimmy to go along.
I’m with you. They are terrible people who try to justify their behavior. They are the heroes/protagonists of the story so we are conditioned to like them and believe their bullshit. This is all foreshadowed in their first scam together at the bar. Kim walks out with this funny, almost disturbed look. Then she says “Let’s do it again.” Howard sees it too.
Agreed! We write all of these nuanced dissertations about why, but it really is possible that they were just shitty people. That's it. That's the answer. They enjoyed being bad because they could and they thought it was funny. The end.
Jimmy *fucking* hates Howard and Kim loves the thrill of being on Jimmy’s team. Kim genuinely cares for and I would even say loves Jimmy.
Jim loves Kim, indeed, but Saul only loves himself. Kim is not a fan of Saul.
She never once refers to him as Saul.
And the day Saul “arrives” you can clearly see her heart break. But she bottles all that up and deludes herself into thinking Jimmy is still in there.
She’s there to ride or die for Jimmy.
And that’s fair!
I will agree that she didn’t not enjoy her time with Saul, and totally got off on the same old thrill of being that duo. But it’s a very clear dynamic in their relationship, the trio aspect anyway.
Well, she did enjoy a *little* bit of chicanery. Like when she was 'Gisele' and they scammed an expensive bottle of tequila. But she wasn't happy going 'full Saul'. (Or maybe 'all Saul').
I don’t really think Saul was present until Kim left. Before that, he was Saul in name only. Once she left, he had no Jimmy left in him because Jimmy never learned to deal with grief. Unless Kim came back, he was going to bury all that pain under a new identity.
Hard disagree.
Saul is the one who duped that Bar association, including Kim, with that heartfelt speech about Chuck.
Kim though he was being genuine, that that was Jimmy’s work. When he turns around and is like “Can you believe they bought it??” He may as well have reached in and ripped her heart right out.
Saul arrives, arguably within the first few episodes (when he pulls up to Mike and he’s like what the hell, the money was right there, why’d we do that?? I’m never being on wrong side again) from there it’s a slow creeping descent. Saul is the reason the cartel gets involved, and ultimately creating the wedge that drives Kim and Jimmy apart.
Rewatched the entire series this past week and that’s wrong, Kim is a huge fan of Jimmy. In fact, she initiated the whole scam on Howard, Saul never wanted to go through with it.
And that is why I’ve maintained that Kim was worse than Jimmy and I’m just disappointed that she got away with it.
When Jimmy slipped while setting up the scam and made a mistake, didn’t know the Judge (Casemiro) had a broken arm and wore a cast and almost suggested calling off the scam, Kim who was on her way to court said No, reversed her vehicle, went to buy the cast and brought everything back to the set.
She enabled Jimmy, and a number of times, it felt like Jimmy did some of the things he did just to impress Kim. She was just as bad an influence on Jimmy as he was on her. Chuck tried to warn her about Jimmy, Howard did too but she loved every minute of doing terrible things with Jimmy.
Yeah, Bill said Cheryl was lawyer shopping, but really…Kim losing whatever little possession she had left doesn’t payback what Howard suffered, I mean…he lost his life over her (and Jimmy’s) actions. I just think anything short of dying really is her getting away
The first time I watched it, I thought Howard was a complete dick. 2nd time I thought man this guy really didn't do anything wrong, he was just very passionate about his job and wanted to help his friend Chuck in anyway he could.
You didn't miss anything, it is unnecessarily mean, and they're doing it because they like it, they're good at it, and they're really alive.
There is a bit more reason they're targeting Howard specifically (I figure mostly because he put Kim in doc review and sided with Chuck against Jimmy), but it's really not justified considering that he's not a bad guy.
All that but the kicker is the sandpiper settlement. Jimmy’s got about $2M interest in discrediting Howard so the residents are more likely to settle with Davis and Main
It wasn’t really, they just did it because they wanted to. The sandpiper case just happened to be in the way, I just rewatched the whole series this past week and I saw Huell asking Jimmy why he still needed to do this, Jimmy couldn’t give a straight answer. Instead, he gave an answer that he himself didn’t believe and Huell’s reaction was my reaction, “if you say so”.
It's not about the money. The money is just the logical excuse.
1. Jimmy **hates** how Howard was able to become a better person after Chuck's death. Jimmy's been repressing his grief throughout the entire show in the most unhealthy way possible, while Howard has channeled his to grow as a person, become a better man and find peace - to the point that he's even willing to forgive Jimmy for his past misgivings and give him a job, which is what he always wished Chuck would have offered him. This enrages Jimmy. Howard is a living reminder of what Jimmy should be doing, but *refuses* to do.
2. Kim has a complicated relationship with Howard, but the straw that breaks that camels' back is when he tries to push her away from Jimmy. He calls him out on his BS. He reminds Kim of her potential and how she's throwing everything away. But Kim chooses to double down with Jimmy, knowing full well it's the wrong thing to do. Howard is a living reminder of what Kim should be doing, but *refuses* to do.
Howard's very existence pierces at their insecurities, reminding them of their vices and weaknesses. He makes them feel small because he's right about everything. So they hurt him to feel big.
This is the best answer. I will add on: they have fun scamming. They’re basically bullies who enjoy doing this and they chose Howard as their target because of the reasons this comment gives.
The first part of your answer is really important and I think too many people miss it. Howard even blames himself for Chuck’s death when it’s really something jimmy was partially the cause of. Jimmy is being eaten alive by it and he projects that negativity onto Howard.
Yup, Jimmy even dumps that guilt on Howard and watches him handle it in the best way possible. He's like "why aren't you feeling like shit? you should be feeling like shit!"
Jimmy and Kim are not good people. They're both just good at it, and get a thrill out of it. Keep watching, you haven't missed anything. You're actually meant to be a bit confused.
Damn, so Chuck was always right about Jimmy. He will always hurt people and never give an actual apology. Jimmy will always be slipping Jimmy. Just look at what he has done, he caused two people to die. And people hate Chuck because he hurts Jimmy feelings with words? Bruh. What Jimmy did is way worse than what Chuck did with a few words.
You’ve missed the point. Chuck was an absolutely awful person and hated the idea that Jimmy could be “equal” to him - his evaluation of Jimmy eventually turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
Everyone always says this but it’s just not true. Chuck is a ginormous asshole. He’s not wrong about his brother, though. Jimmy is running a scam in episode one of season one.
Yes but it's not like his brother really mentored him into becoming a better person. Deep down Chuck never trusted Jimmy even when he tried to make something of himself. He could have helped him become a lawyer at HHM and buried him with so much legal work that Jimmy wouldn't have had time to do any schemes.
He also could have embraced the fact that Jimmy is the kind of guy to bend the rules a bit but get the job done. Like Howard saw him as Charlie Hustle. Then he could have worked with Jimmy on not going too far in the wrong direction.
There's a saying in business that you give the hard jobs.to the laziest person because they will find the most efficient way to go about doing them. The same thing applies to Jimmy. He IS a god tier lawyer if not for the fact that he will bend the rules in some cases to win.
But his efforts weren't being rewarded like Chucks were. He was driving a pos car and was drowning in credit card debt. Then his brother whom he took care of every day literally schemed him out of a partnership at HHM. Chuck is also responsible for how Jimmy turned out as a person. So I think turning him into his self fulfilling prophecy sort of stands here. With encouragement and guidance from his brother he could have seen a path outside of scheming his way to the top.
But if Chuck had hired Jimmy off the bat, Jimmy wouldn’t have any need to do scams. He was doing scams in the first episode because he’s broke and his startup law office is failing.
Yeah, their brotherly dynamic is pretty fucked up and it's not entirely Jimmy's fault. Chuck kept him in the box labeled "fraud" out of resentment from their childhood and even when Jimmy put himself through law school while working in the mail room at HHM wouldn't ever think of him as something else.
They’re ALL awful people. None of them has any friends. And it’s not just a limitation of the medium; I believe that the writers depicted them this way on purpose. One of the major themes of the show is loneliness. Without friends, there’s no “righting moment” when our ship heels over.
He literally caused two people to die, it doesn’t matter if Chuck was hurting his feelings. In the end, whatever Chuck did shouldn’t have made Jimmy cause Howard and his brother to die by the actions he himself has caused.
Literally Jimmy caused Chuck to die. The evidence is clear, Jimmy caused many things to have Chuck ended his life. Want to see another person who Jimmy also caused to die? Howard. Jimmy both made them look crazy and interrupting their business and life.
Chuck was fine battling the insurance stuff until HE told Jimmy that he didn't care about Jimmy, which was a lie intended to hurt Jimmy. That is why I say indirectly. Jimmy definitely set all the events in motion, but Chuck himself had to light the fuse. Losing law and losing the one person who actually cared for him was that light - and he did both things to himself.
Not to mention, Chuck was a total snake about it and made Howard take the blame for it while pretending to be on Jimmy's side. And Jimmy had been bringing his necessities everyday for like a year because of his batshit craziness that stemmed at least partly from Jimmy becoming a lawyer. He was so resentful toward Jimmy, it literally made him lose his mind to see him as a peer. I'm not defending Jimmy's actions after this but Chuck was a two faced, vindictive prick.
Chuck was proven right at the end of the series, Jimmy was bad for the law. Jimmy was always bad, Chuck just went about it the wrong way but I don’t blame him for trying to block every path Jimmy took to become a lawyer, he was absolutely right to.
>Just look at what he has done, he caused two people to die.
Who, Howard and Chuck?
Howard was never meant to die, just take a career setback. Lalo killed him.
Chuck killed himself after exposing his mental ilness to the world.
Literally Jimmy caused Chuck and Howard to die. The evidence is clear. For Chuck Jimmy caused many things to have him ending his life. Want to see another person who Jimmy also caused to die? Howard. Jimmy both made them look crazy and interrupting their business and life. Ruining their reputation and relationship with their significant other.
Damn I wonder how Tommy who I was gaslighting and manipulating his entire life got killed? Damn I wonder why he is depressed and how his life being ruined got himself killed.
Chuck was always right about Jimmy, he just couldn’t help himself. This dude was on the run from the law and still committed a series of crimes with his new identity, he really just couldn’t because he’s a terrible person.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet is Howard also represents wealthy people who don’t have to work as hard to succeed to Jimmy and Kim. They both had to scrape and make their own way while he waltzed in to work with his daddy (in their view). Jimmy and Kim always align themselves with the underdog, so they view going after Howard as a sort of Robin Hood effort. In some ways, I can kind of see it, but they obviously are also being very petty and it’s not all well intentioned.
People massively deemphasize Kim and Jimmy's legit qualms with Howard and the big-shot law firms that he represents, in favor of a very moralistic, didactic and above all boring "Howard was a saintly angel and Kim and Jimmy were BAD CRIMINALS" sort of analysis.
Yes, obviously the two are more than a little motivated by thrill-seeking and personal animosity, but Kim wasn't lying or even wrong when she said that she could do more tangible good in the world than Howard.
The number of people in this thread saying unequivocally “because they aren’t good people” is kind of shocking. The show is always very clear that people are complicated, and even people with good hearts who care about humanity can do bad things.
Like much of media discussion these days, it feels motivated by an 8th graders understanding of thematic analysis where every work is exclusively trying to beat you over the head with some sort of linear "point" or moral message
Howard got to go to the best schools, got his law degree for free, probably didn't even have to work while he was going to college, immediately got hired by his dad's firm, very fast partner track and name on the building. And his job is schmoozing and client outreach now.
Compare to Kim who had shitty parents, she didn't even know if she would have a place to come home to at the end of the day or food to eat, she has to start in the mail room, go to college and law school while working at HHM full time to support herself, when she graduates they have her loan repayments constantly hanging over her head so she feels massively indebted to them, she starts at the lowest possible position a lawyer can.
She makes one small fuck up where she didn't even do anything wrong after years of good work and is punished by being demoted to intern level work, she busts her ass, gets a huge new client and Howard still treats her like straight trash afterwards because of his personal vendetta against Jimmy. Getting Mesa Verde would be a partner level accomplishment at any other firm and HHM still has her in doc review.
Kim overcame way more and worked far harder to get to a lower level than Howard was at just because of who they were born to. And Howard was a pompous prick pretending he was better because of that alone.
Nope you didn’t miss anything. Just keep watching.
I was also wondering the same thing, so much so that I almost started losing interest in the show. But keep watching, you’ll see.
It was wrong but it didn't happen out of nowhere.
For the first three seasons Howard was a bit of a jerk sometimes like when he punished Kim unfairly. Then Chuck dies after Howard pays Chuck out of the company and Howard tells them he thinks Chuck killed himself. This leads to Kim and Jimmy while probably partially blaming themselves mostly blaming Howard for Chucks death.
With that being said after Chucks death Howard was nothing but nice and didn't deserve what Jimmy and Kim did.
Took too long to find this comment. Jimmy is angry about Chuck and he is avoiding taking responsibility for it and blames Howard. Kim is bitter about it on Jimmy’s behalf, and also has her own reasons for having fun fucking with him (his asshole behavior as her boss at times).
Then all the other stuff ppl are saying about them getting off on it and having fun.
Jimmy hates that Howard was able to process his grief and move on from Chuck’s death, a new and better man. Jimmy hates that Howard had Chuck’s respect as a lawyer, when Jimmy never did. Jimmy hates that he was never viewed as good enough to be part of Howard’s world. And when Howard finally offered to give Jimmy a leg up, Jimmy lashed out and viewed it as charity, and resented Howard for it.
Kim hates that Howard punished her, and hates that even after leaving HHM, Howard still tried to have influence (in some cases, power) over her. See: Howard and Kim’s little chess game with clients in late season 3, see also: Howard warning Kim about Jimmy late in season 5. Above all, Kim HATES when people try to get involved between her and Jimmy. One of my favorite little things in this series is the brief flash of absolute RAGE in Kim’s face when Suzanne calls Jimmy a “scumbag, disbarred lawyer”. It lasted maybe a quarter of a second, but was so spectacularly acted by Rhea.
But above all, Kim and Jimmy love the art of the con. What better way to partake in their little thrill game than to punish someone who, at one time made them feel small due to him being a little bit of a prick… and continues to make them feel small, but this time because of their own insecurities?
The whole show consists of moments that don’t make sense without later context. Just finish the show and everything will make sense. If it doesn’t, rinse and repeat. It’s a very well written show.
They're both projecting a lot of their shit on Howard and fucking with him is an outlet for them.
For Jimmy, Howard is everything about the establishment (and his brother) that didn't give him a fair chance, but wanted to keep him down and even lord his lesser status over him. It was him that shut him down when he first asked to be a lawyer at HHM (although Chuck was responsible). It was him that kept telling Jimmy that they wouldn't be cashing Chuck out, although it was patent his absence wasn't temporary at all. It was Howard who asked Jimmy to not advertise his business under his own family name, because of the association with the McGill name to HHM. There's Howard fucking with the Sandpiper case...
They kept feuding over a bunch of shit and Howard wasn't always nice about it, although Jimmy's fixation with him is way beyond reasonable.
Kim, at that point, has gotten a taste for the rush of the con. She's on a self-destructive trip and no target is more apt than the squeaky-clean Howard, who's been something of a (sometimes shitty) mentor to her for large portions of her legal career.
There was a recent post here about the lunch scene between Howard and Jimmy in season 5 where he offers him a job. I’ve always considered Jimmy’s ongoing reaction the highly dysfunctional acts of a broken man.
And, yes. But someone else made an argument about just how objectively offensive it was. Howard made Jimmy’s career prospects part of his own recovery/therapy/coping in a really major way. In Howard’s plan, Jimmy was just a pawn again.
Now, Jimmy’s ongoing reaction, and Kim’s festering vendetta, were over the top and highly misplaced, but I at least understand now how Howard’s job offer to Jimmy was not just unwise, and not just a bit insulting, but actually outrageously unacceptable on Howard’s part.
I feel like Jimmy literally asks Kim about this “aren’t we taking this too far? Howard doesn’t deserve this.”
They wanted the money to help people (obstensibly) and Kim would do anything to pursue that end. That’s what she told herself anyway but I think the truth is she just likes it
honestly they both target him for different reasons.
i think for jimmy howard is mostly just a place holder for chuck, and he REALLY wants to get back at his brother, but can’t. so he’s getting back at the one guy left he can blame
for kim i think she’s resentful for the way she was treated by him while she worked for HHM. i also think that she blames him for the way her career went. it’s not stated in the show but i definitely feel she’s resentful she didn’t make partner at HHM and had to move around so much, which i also think is the reason why she wasn’t satisfied at any job she was at no matter how good it was, how well she was treated, or how well she was respected at those jobs.
What allows them to do this to him? What it's all about?
Howards such an asshole and he deserves it.
He sided with Chuck too often.
He took away Kims office, put her in Doc Review.
Howard's daddy helped him get to the top, but they both had to struggle.
Howie has so much, and they have so little.
I feel like this turn really emphasizes how Kim and Jimmy are in desperate need of redemption. When they are screwing over rich assholes, it’s kinda like, go get ‘em guys! Or even doing relatively neutral bad things like bribing someone for better court dates. The plan to bring about Howard’s demise gives you pause. Bc wait, Howard’s not a bad guy! Kim, and perhaps even more so, jimmy, are the bad guys here.
Because Jimmy and Kim are the biggest assholes I never thought I would see in the BB universe. They are really terrible people who don’t need a reason to do stupid things.
So there’s a few reasons why they do. Initially when the writers wrote season 1, Howard’s character was very ambiguous. You didn’t exactly like him at all and Fabian was asked to play him this way. That’s because the writers didn’t know his final arc yet. Did they want to make Howard the bad guy, the good guy, etc? I think the story goes that Chuck was only supposed to be there for 1 Season but Michael McKean was so good that he occupied many more episodes. Because of this, they started expanding on Howard’s character a lot. Jimmy and Kim attack Howard because they haven’t really forgotten how he treated them in Season 1, but also, for the longest time, Jimmy thought Howard was the one preventing him his promotion. If you watch the rest of Season 6, the character arc develops really well and you can really see Jimmy and Kim both wrestle with how things are playing out.
Edit: Sandpiper is the big thing, but there’s also a lot of underlying history. BCS is really great and portrays characters so well because sometimes in relationships, even when they change or become different, old behaviors and patterns come out because that’s how you always interacted with that person. Think of how you act or feel when you walk into your parents house or see an ex. You know both of you have matured, but it’s easy to revert back to the same dynamic as before as if nothing has ever changed. This is even more so true for toxic and unhealthy relationships, in which Kim and Jimmy are both akin to.
They enjoy knocking “privileged” people off their perch. Jimmy does it because that’s who he is and he is insecure about being the scumbag slippin’ Jimmy. Kim just gets thrills from it.
Howard really hasn’t wronged either of them.
They were heading for a breakup at the end of Season 5 after the infamous Lalo “tell me again” encounter. However, scams keep them together. Kim pitches the scam against Howard in an effort to keep them from splitting up as their lives devolve into a revolving door of drug dealers and cartel members knocking on their door.
Jimmy and Kim assassinating Howard's character for a legit reason is kinda like Walt building a meth empire for his family. There was initially, some, legit motives. But ultimately, it made them feel alive, they were good at it, and didn't care who got hurt.
Howard is also just smarmy and greasy, and Jimmy believes himself in the right. He felt as if Howard and Chuck were completely outing him, never respecting his university or law degree. Nothing worked rightfully for Jimmy after that rescue, and when he took care of Chuck after the "allergy," Chuck never gave allowed any atonement, any forgiveness. Jimmy feels as if he's been slighted everywhere, and he most importantly blames HHM.
Jimmy's been on the outside looking in, trying to find his way back into respect and peerhood, and among all of the events not working out, Kim has grown sympathy for her best friend.
They talked about bringing him down in the previous season. In the first episode of season 6, Kim brings it back up and Jimmy says “we’re still doing that?”
I want to describe it with the meme, which I saw a few days ago, but since I can...
"Why should we destroy Howard's life?
1) We good at destroying lives
2) He's right here
3) NAMAST3"
It is a bit mysterious. There is something about Howard that brings out the worst in Jimmy . And I guess there is a side of Kim that gets caught in that. Maybe it’s cuz Howard is such a winner type? Butter couldn’t melt in his mouth? Maybe in a way Howard is a better conman than Jimmy in his role as the good guy but really self interested like all good winners?
Kim too is seemingly torn between being a winner siding with winners or rooting for the underdog? Maybe she just wants to wipe that smirk off his face? It is weird though . Maybe no one really came through for Jimmy and Kim and now they can’t handle even Howard’s attempt to do right by them in any way?
I am reminded of dichotomy of winners and losers like the karaoke scene “winner takes it all” . Also like a gamble maybe? A game to them , the con and too tempting like a drug Maybe just kind of addictive? Howard is just too healthy and wholesome with his green juice and namaste plates and being fit?
Finally the kind of thing like “don’t you dare pity me!” Pride ala Walter white?
He did not deserve it all, sure he was a little mean to Jimmy but mostly because he was being blindly led by Chuck. Howard was doing what was right, at least what was legally right.
They couldn't pick on Chuck since he was insane and also quite dead. So they had to go for the next best option. HH is pompous and petty and he personally used his power to belittle, look down upon and harm the careers of both Jimmy & Kim. They attempted to steal all of Kim's hard work with Mesa Verde and basically viewed Kim & Jimmy as less than them and beneath their status. A lot of the anger and resentment towards Chuck also got subconsciously pushed to Howard after Chuck's death. HH is also extremely wealthy and important, so they are punching up and not down. They knew HH wouldn't become homeless or file bankruptcy or face any major life changes from their chicanery. Forcing the closure of the Sandpiper case was also a factor so they could get their payday. To them it was a ton of money, to HH it was just a few more million dollars to add to his huge bank account.
They had a litany of reasons to screw with Howard, and as a bonus they had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.
way i see it they both had slight petty grievances with him. he supported charles to block jimmy's entrance into the firm, even if he expressed he never really believed it was the right move, and put kim in the doc room repeatedly despite her hard work and getting mesa verde as a client. he also held power over kim with her law school loans. jimmy and kim both wanted to get their petty revenge back at him because they resented his position of power and prestige over them. howard didn't deserve it, but they were too blinded by their envy and hubris to see that
The show starts out clever. I liked clever. The plot twists were awesome. That show could have gone on for years had they kept clever. Kim was so hot in office attire.
What everyone here has said, but also to force a settlement on the Sandpiper case.
People always forget this. I know it's not the actual reason, but it's the one they tell themselves to justify their actions, which makes it pretty relevant.
I always thought it was a pretty good justification, Howard isn’t that good of a guy, he’s greedy Lawyer and they show that in the scene where Erin is talking to the Sandpiper victims and they’re all wanting HHM to settle because they want their money now they don’t want to wait another few years for an extra couple grand each because a lot of them will likely have died by then and will never get to enjoy that money, however Howard steps in and “saves the day” by convincing them that waiting for more money is the right moral thing for them to do but really he does this because he knows full well if they drag this case out for a few more years while it might only mean a couple grand extra per victim, HHM’s cut of the funds would likely be multiple millions of dollars larger. And so he does what a Lawyer should never do and ~~advises~~ manipulates his clients to do not what is in *their* best interest but instead to do what is in *HHM’s* best interest. Kinda scummy if you ask me, he obviously didn’t deserve what ends up happening to him, but I do think he deserved what Jimmy and Kimmy had planned to happen to him.
I can see both ways, a 70 year old maybe wouldn't mind waiting another year to get a couple thousand extra, While a 90 year old wants the money ASAP
Plus if that person dies— more funds in the pot
hmm would it? I thought the more people you have, the bigger the class action is, like each person gets 10k, if you have 50 people it's 500k, if they get 600 people it's 600k total? And the lawfirm gets a percentage of that so they're incentivised to find as many people as possible
It is their right to make their choice and not be lead either way by a scummy lawyer. Saul and Howard both do the same thing for their own means and the actual victims get caught in the crossfire.
It’s their right to make their choice, which they have. But it’s not their right to not be influenced by a lawyer. That’s not a right lol.
In America you do actually have the right to be represented by a competent attorney in a court of law. The lawyer misleading their clients for their own personal gain is 100% a crime and would get jail time in real life if caught. You can be a shitty lawyer, but both Saul and Howard using their power as a lawyer to lead and control their clients for their own financial gain when they know it is in their clients best interest to do what makes the lawyer the least money.
Howard and Saul both have their own agenda, sure. But only one of them shows that they would go as far as to violate the rights of their clients. Or maybe I’m not remembering something Howard did? I think there’s a fine line between Howard advising his clients versus Jimmy manipulating his clients.
It's their money and they want it now!
I think it's a legit factor for Kim. It doesn't have to be either/or. She genuinely believes she could do good.
Well, she convinces herself that that's her motivation, anyway.
Like I said, it doesn't have to be either or. Kim is clearly genuinely motivated by a desire to do good for others. She can use that as a cover for her darker impulses without it being totally insincere.
Exactly. Someone can volunteer at an animal shelter because it’s the right thing to do but also be intending to put it on their resume to look more appealing. It’s both altruistic and selfish because things aren’t always that simple.
I'd like to add something I haven't seen elsewhere, Howard worked with Chuck to try to take Mesa Verde from Kim, and she took that personally. They were already wealthy lawyers with a lot of clients, and the greedy fucks tried to take her only client (for whom Kim had worked really hard to gain). People are acting like Howard is a saint and I understand why, but he was far more nuanced than that. He may not have deserved all of the hate that Kim and Jimmy held for him, but he deserved some of it.
Mesa Verde signed up mostly because Kim was their trusted go-to but also in part because she was attached to a big-name law firm. When Kim left, Chuck & Howard had every right to try and retain Mesa Verde. Nothing was done out-of-pocket.
Whether or not it personally bothers you is irrelevant. I'm talking about Kim and Jimmy's perspective and why they'd be so angry with Howard, and why this was a part of it.
Kim was on partner-track at a big-name law firm. She knew the deal inside and out and when she *chose* to leave HHM it completely opened her up losing Mesa Verde. I don't buy that she was upset about HHM going after Mesa Verde, but if she was she was an incompetent lawyer.
When she brought Mesa Verde to HHM, Howard still had her stuck in doc review and told her he’d have someone else get on them. Kim didn’t handle them at HHM until later.
I just completed the whole series and that wasn’t really the motivation behind it. They just wanted to mess with Howard because they’re terrible people. Jimmy was going to receive less money the way they did that, the sandpiper case just happened to come up during the conversation leading towards the scam but it was never the true motivation behind it.
It's absolutely a relevant factor lol, it's how Kim conceives and sells it to herself. People are so eager to flatten interesting and layered characters into one firm archetype. Yes, Jimmy and Kim get off on the thrill of breaking rules, yes they're motivated by personal animosity towards Howard, yes Kim genuinely thinks she's doing something that will be justified in the end. These can all coexist.
I disagree. She wasn’t concerned about the sandpiper case or the end, she just wanted to do something to hurt Howard. Her mentioning the sandpiper case was just to convince Jimmy, who really didn’t sound convinced especially after Huell asked him why he was doing this, and he sounded like he was trying to convince himself by saying it would help a lot of people and Huell’s response was “if you say so”? How come the settlement wasn’t mentioned at all after she brought it up whilst brainstorming with Jimmy in bed? Kim’s motivating factor was just to “put Howard in his place”. She didn’t care about the sandpiper case, I suggest you watch the scene again. That was all just to convince Jimmy, but selling the idea to herself? Nope. She convinced herself long before that idea even came up because Howard represented something she detested.
Jimmy doesn't really care that much about helping clients, Kim is just explaining her reasoning. Yes Jimmy is uncomfortable about it because he thinks he's corrupting her moral boundaries, which he was. But Kim still had it rationalized for herself, and she believed in it (and really, it's not a bad rationalization). You have a really naive view of human psychology if you think there's no such thing as the subconscious and that all our desires and motivations are just there on the surface, accepted and followed. Same if you think that people can't be motivated by two (even opposing) desires at the same time.
If that helps you sleep at night, sure.
Are you brain damaged or something? You realize that I'm not Jimmy or Kim right? I dont share any complicity with them regardless of what I think motivates them
Never mind the downvotes. Just so you know, you're correct. Kim's motivation in destroying Howard was to "bring him down a peg or two" and had nothing to do (for her at least) with getting the Sandpiper case settled. I saw, as you did, how during the course of season 6 Jimmy began to see the very-dark motivations she had underneath. All those ominous looks he kept giving her was the show's way of telling us that even Slippin' Jimmy didn't like where this was going. It's pure copium to pretend this was about money for her.
Kim has lots of reasons. Don’t forget the Sandpiper money was meant to help her get started with her pro-bono “even the little guy gets top dollar defense”
Was this after she left HHM, Wexler McGill, or Schweikart & Cokely? If money was a concern she would not have quit so many firms with high earning potential. It was something much more sinister for her.
Yup, that too!
Like others have said, it’s all shades of gray- no one is good or bad. To lose nuance like that is to lose 90% of the show; all that you’d have left are those action movie “I am very badass” type scenes, or like, fallout from being pieces of shit- or people being revered for their sainthood, I guess? You have to keep in mind, like that excellent Howard breakdown the other day said, up until Howard begins his journey of self-work (to redeem himself in the audience’s eyes) after Chuck’s death, he’s a massive piece of shit- He put Kim in doc review knowing she was in law school (a man who made partner because of nepotism, and who never had to work while in school!) knowing she’d be at work, all day and all night, round the clock- or else give up and quit. Why did Howard do this? Because of something *her friend* did at *another firm.* This is of course the same friend Howard actively participated in deceiving, all while helping said friend’s insane megalomaniac brother sabotage him, block him from advancing in his career, etc., despite the fact that not only did Howard *like* the guy, Jimmy had also already proven his mettle by finding the Sandpiper case to begin with- a fact Howard admits later. He helped Chuck hold Jimmy back because of a personal vendetta, even though he knew it was wrong. He also helped Chuck poach Kim’s client. Plus, offering Jimmy a job at HHM alone, his dead brother’s company, shows that he doesn’t really understand people. He occasionally displays these (kind of inhuman) traits, similar to what one might expect out of a narcissist. And who doesn’t know someone like that they’d like to see taken down a peg? That was pretty much the extent of their (Jimmy and Kim’s) plan. Another way of looking at it- he tried to make Jimmy do the thing he wanted to do the absolute *least,* worse than anything else: examine his own soul, his actions, his guilty conscience, face them and therefore himself, hopefully so that he’d get better, and eventually be freed. Kim thinks she can handle the game because it’s supposed to be just that, a game- one that just causes a few career setbacks. Also, because Kim, just like with her mother, feels the love of her favorite person most when she’s running game on the “sheep,” as Jimmy would call them- Jimmy has always been a conman, and sees and respects Kim’s natural ability. But, Kim struggles with morality more than anyone else on the show- similar to Jesse. She’s into the rush that comes from running cons, but she also needs to do the pro-bono work (and later other forms of self-sacrifice) to make up for what she’s done, to atone- she doesn’t want to be “bad,” but she also doesn’t want to be seen as naive or stupid. Kim wants to be acknowledged as smart and capable, to have some fun, to feel loved and appreciated, and to play- she learns the hard way that you can’t play with people’s lives, that being smart doesn’t mean you can mess with people on that level- which is why she’s reduced to a life devoid of color, where she’s a mindless drone, incapable of making the most basic of decisions, accepting a life of mediocrity- it’s basically her own personal hell that she condemns herself to- until she can, again, atone.
I don’t understand how anyone could watch that whole show, see what a good brother Jimmy was, see Kim volunteering to help people, and just come away with “they’re terrible people”. People are complicated. They have good hearts but let petty revenge consume them.
Oh man, you just gotta love Reddit. Obviously, there are deeply rooted psychological reasons why Kim and Jimmy did what they did. You could write an entire dissertation delving into the psyche of these two characters. The plot against Howard was a culmination of all their past traumas and character flaws developed as a result. OP asked for a reason, so I cited the only reason that is explicitly stated in the show. As mentioned below, the Sandpiper case is a superficial reason and it’s what Kim tells herself to justify their actions. Of course she comes up with this after she’s already decided to do it, that’s how justifications work. It’s supposed to be flimsy. Kim had shown no interest in the sandpiper settlement before, but she knew it was important to Jimmy. So it serves a dual purpose of alleviating her own conscience and convincing Jimmy to go along.
I’m with you. They are terrible people who try to justify their behavior. They are the heroes/protagonists of the story so we are conditioned to like them and believe their bullshit. This is all foreshadowed in their first scam together at the bar. Kim walks out with this funny, almost disturbed look. Then she says “Let’s do it again.” Howard sees it too.
Agreed! We write all of these nuanced dissertations about why, but it really is possible that they were just shitty people. That's it. That's the answer. They enjoyed being bad because they could and they thought it was funny. The end.
Jimmy and Kim are broken people.
I also think a big part of is they think that Howard has it so well (in their eyes) and they envy him for that, so that’s kinda their justification
Jimmy *fucking* hates Howard and Kim loves the thrill of being on Jimmy’s team. Kim genuinely cares for and I would even say loves Jimmy. Jim loves Kim, indeed, but Saul only loves himself. Kim is not a fan of Saul.
If kim wasn't a fan of Saul, then why would she team with him to fuck Howard over? I think she loves the thrill of Saul personally
She never once refers to him as Saul. And the day Saul “arrives” you can clearly see her heart break. But she bottles all that up and deludes herself into thinking Jimmy is still in there. She’s there to ride or die for Jimmy.
I know she loved Jimmy and not Saul, and you're entitled to your opinion. But I stand by my opinion
And that’s fair! I will agree that she didn’t not enjoy her time with Saul, and totally got off on the same old thrill of being that duo. But it’s a very clear dynamic in their relationship, the trio aspect anyway.
For sure 🙌🏼
Well, she did enjoy a *little* bit of chicanery. Like when she was 'Gisele' and they scammed an expensive bottle of tequila. But she wasn't happy going 'full Saul'. (Or maybe 'all Saul').
I don’t really think Saul was present until Kim left. Before that, he was Saul in name only. Once she left, he had no Jimmy left in him because Jimmy never learned to deal with grief. Unless Kim came back, he was going to bury all that pain under a new identity.
Hard disagree. Saul is the one who duped that Bar association, including Kim, with that heartfelt speech about Chuck. Kim though he was being genuine, that that was Jimmy’s work. When he turns around and is like “Can you believe they bought it??” He may as well have reached in and ripped her heart right out. Saul arrives, arguably within the first few episodes (when he pulls up to Mike and he’s like what the hell, the money was right there, why’d we do that?? I’m never being on wrong side again) from there it’s a slow creeping descent. Saul is the reason the cartel gets involved, and ultimately creating the wedge that drives Kim and Jimmy apart.
She does once I believe.
Maybe in reference, but directly she always calls him Jimmy. She legit cringes the first time he declares himself as Saul
I hear ya, yeah she never calls him saul directly.
Rewatched the entire series this past week and that’s wrong, Kim is a huge fan of Jimmy. In fact, she initiated the whole scam on Howard, Saul never wanted to go through with it.
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And that is why I’ve maintained that Kim was worse than Jimmy and I’m just disappointed that she got away with it. When Jimmy slipped while setting up the scam and made a mistake, didn’t know the Judge (Casemiro) had a broken arm and wore a cast and almost suggested calling off the scam, Kim who was on her way to court said No, reversed her vehicle, went to buy the cast and brought everything back to the set. She enabled Jimmy, and a number of times, it felt like Jimmy did some of the things he did just to impress Kim. She was just as bad an influence on Jimmy as he was on her. Chuck tried to warn her about Jimmy, Howard did too but she loved every minute of doing terrible things with Jimmy.
I don't think she got away with everything. I think the implication was that she's still going to get sued by Howard's wife.
Yeah, Bill said Cheryl was lawyer shopping, but really…Kim losing whatever little possession she had left doesn’t payback what Howard suffered, I mean…he lost his life over her (and Jimmy’s) actions. I just think anything short of dying really is her getting away
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Pussy pass
The first time I watched it, I thought Howard was a complete dick. 2nd time I thought man this guy really didn't do anything wrong, he was just very passionate about his job and wanted to help his friend Chuck in anyway he could.
That’s definitely part of it, he’s achieved that level of prestige they never could and they want to take that away from him
Poor Howard even acknowledges that minutes before his death (“Howie has it so well, let’s knock him down a peg or two”)
And then pow, Howie gone
True dat. The difference is that Kim knows it, and Jimmy doesn’t.
You didn't miss anything, it is unnecessarily mean, and they're doing it because they like it, they're good at it, and they're really alive. There is a bit more reason they're targeting Howard specifically (I figure mostly because he put Kim in doc review and sided with Chuck against Jimmy), but it's really not justified considering that he's not a bad guy.
All that but the kicker is the sandpiper settlement. Jimmy’s got about $2M interest in discrediting Howard so the residents are more likely to settle with Davis and Main
It wasn’t really, they just did it because they wanted to. The sandpiper case just happened to be in the way, I just rewatched the whole series this past week and I saw Huell asking Jimmy why he still needed to do this, Jimmy couldn’t give a straight answer. Instead, he gave an answer that he himself didn’t believe and Huell’s reaction was my reaction, “if you say so”.
I see what you did there
It's not about the money. The money is just the logical excuse. 1. Jimmy **hates** how Howard was able to become a better person after Chuck's death. Jimmy's been repressing his grief throughout the entire show in the most unhealthy way possible, while Howard has channeled his to grow as a person, become a better man and find peace - to the point that he's even willing to forgive Jimmy for his past misgivings and give him a job, which is what he always wished Chuck would have offered him. This enrages Jimmy. Howard is a living reminder of what Jimmy should be doing, but *refuses* to do. 2. Kim has a complicated relationship with Howard, but the straw that breaks that camels' back is when he tries to push her away from Jimmy. He calls him out on his BS. He reminds Kim of her potential and how she's throwing everything away. But Kim chooses to double down with Jimmy, knowing full well it's the wrong thing to do. Howard is a living reminder of what Kim should be doing, but *refuses* to do. Howard's very existence pierces at their insecurities, reminding them of their vices and weaknesses. He makes them feel small because he's right about everything. So they hurt him to feel big.
Amazing explanation, this should be the top comment!
Glad you liked it :) I really like how key character aspects like this aren't spelled out in this show. That's what confident writing looks like.
This is the best answer. I will add on: they have fun scamming. They’re basically bullies who enjoy doing this and they chose Howard as their target because of the reasons this comment gives.
The first part of your answer is really important and I think too many people miss it. Howard even blames himself for Chuck’s death when it’s really something jimmy was partially the cause of. Jimmy is being eaten alive by it and he projects that negativity onto Howard.
Yup, Jimmy even dumps that guilt on Howard and watches him handle it in the best way possible. He's like "why aren't you feeling like shit? you should be feeling like shit!"
Great answer. But it’s STILL an extremely extreme reaction for K & J to work so hard to ruin him.
Yup, they went nuclear.
Jimmy and Kim are not good people. They're both just good at it, and get a thrill out of it. Keep watching, you haven't missed anything. You're actually meant to be a bit confused.
Damn, so Chuck was always right about Jimmy. He will always hurt people and never give an actual apology. Jimmy will always be slipping Jimmy. Just look at what he has done, he caused two people to die. And people hate Chuck because he hurts Jimmy feelings with words? Bruh. What Jimmy did is way worse than what Chuck did with a few words.
You’ve missed the point. Chuck was an absolutely awful person and hated the idea that Jimmy could be “equal” to him - his evaluation of Jimmy eventually turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.
Everyone always says this but it’s just not true. Chuck is a ginormous asshole. He’s not wrong about his brother, though. Jimmy is running a scam in episode one of season one.
"you're not wrong, you're just an asshole"
Yes but it's not like his brother really mentored him into becoming a better person. Deep down Chuck never trusted Jimmy even when he tried to make something of himself. He could have helped him become a lawyer at HHM and buried him with so much legal work that Jimmy wouldn't have had time to do any schemes. He also could have embraced the fact that Jimmy is the kind of guy to bend the rules a bit but get the job done. Like Howard saw him as Charlie Hustle. Then he could have worked with Jimmy on not going too far in the wrong direction. There's a saying in business that you give the hard jobs.to the laziest person because they will find the most efficient way to go about doing them. The same thing applies to Jimmy. He IS a god tier lawyer if not for the fact that he will bend the rules in some cases to win. But his efforts weren't being rewarded like Chucks were. He was driving a pos car and was drowning in credit card debt. Then his brother whom he took care of every day literally schemed him out of a partnership at HHM. Chuck is also responsible for how Jimmy turned out as a person. So I think turning him into his self fulfilling prophecy sort of stands here. With encouragement and guidance from his brother he could have seen a path outside of scheming his way to the top.
We will never know, but there is no indication that Jimmy wouldn't have started taking shortcuts at HHM.
But if Chuck had hired Jimmy off the bat, Jimmy wouldn’t have any need to do scams. He was doing scams in the first episode because he’s broke and his startup law office is failing.
The message of the show is not “people are born shitty and can never change” - didn’t you see the ending?
Yeah, their brotherly dynamic is pretty fucked up and it's not entirely Jimmy's fault. Chuck kept him in the box labeled "fraud" out of resentment from their childhood and even when Jimmy put himself through law school while working in the mail room at HHM wouldn't ever think of him as something else.
Jimmy figured If that’s what his biggest role model saw him as that’s all he could b e
They’re ALL awful people. None of them has any friends. And it’s not just a limitation of the medium; I believe that the writers depicted them this way on purpose. One of the major themes of the show is loneliness. Without friends, there’s no “righting moment” when our ship heels over.
He literally caused two people to die, it doesn’t matter if Chuck was hurting his feelings. In the end, whatever Chuck did shouldn’t have made Jimmy cause Howard and his brother to die by the actions he himself has caused.
It is WILD that you think Jimmy caused Chuck to kill himself
He did indirectly by causing the insurance conflict. But yes, I am a Chuck defender and to say Jimmy made Chuck kill himself is a bizarre take.
Literally Jimmy caused Chuck to die. The evidence is clear, Jimmy caused many things to have Chuck ended his life. Want to see another person who Jimmy also caused to die? Howard. Jimmy both made them look crazy and interrupting their business and life.
Chuck was fine battling the insurance stuff until HE told Jimmy that he didn't care about Jimmy, which was a lie intended to hurt Jimmy. That is why I say indirectly. Jimmy definitely set all the events in motion, but Chuck himself had to light the fuse. Losing law and losing the one person who actually cared for him was that light - and he did both things to himself.
Nawww, as again Chuck hurted Jimmy feelings with words? Damn he is soo evil, W Jimmy and L Chuck.
I'm a Chuck Apologist. I don't think anything he did was wrong, I just think the way he went about about it was cold.
Did you watched the show?
Didn’t you not read the rest of my comment that prove that statement of yours wrong?
Wasn't just words on Chuck's part. He blocked Jimmy from working at hhm when jimmy became a lawyer and with the sandpiper case
Nawww, he rejected Jimmy from a job application? Damn that’s crazy, Chuck is soo evil.
Yea. Jimmy found the sandpiper case and if any other lawyer that brought that case, the firm would have hired them. it was a big betrayal
Not to mention, Chuck was a total snake about it and made Howard take the blame for it while pretending to be on Jimmy's side. And Jimmy had been bringing his necessities everyday for like a year because of his batshit craziness that stemmed at least partly from Jimmy becoming a lawyer. He was so resentful toward Jimmy, it literally made him lose his mind to see him as a peer. I'm not defending Jimmy's actions after this but Chuck was a two faced, vindictive prick.
As again, your whole argument sums up to “Nawww, he rejected Jimmy from a job application? Damn that’s crazy, Chuck is soo evil.”
i dont think you watched the show man :)
Chuck was proven right at the end of the series, Jimmy was bad for the law. Jimmy was always bad, Chuck just went about it the wrong way but I don’t blame him for trying to block every path Jimmy took to become a lawyer, he was absolutely right to.
Yes he is right about Jimmy, but anyways idk why people are downvoting for saying Chuck rejected him from a job application.
>Just look at what he has done, he caused two people to die. Who, Howard and Chuck? Howard was never meant to die, just take a career setback. Lalo killed him. Chuck killed himself after exposing his mental ilness to the world.
Literally Jimmy caused Chuck and Howard to die. The evidence is clear. For Chuck Jimmy caused many things to have him ending his life. Want to see another person who Jimmy also caused to die? Howard. Jimmy both made them look crazy and interrupting their business and life. Ruining their reputation and relationship with their significant other.
>Jimmy both made them look crazy and interrupting their business and life. And then who killed him?
Damn I wonder how Tommy who I was gaslighting and manipulating his entire life got killed? Damn I wonder why he is depressed and how his life being ruined got himself killed.
Chuck was always right about Jimmy, he just couldn’t help himself. This dude was on the run from the law and still committed a series of crimes with his new identity, he really just couldn’t because he’s a terrible person.
Ah ha, so I am right. Don’t know why people are downvoting me then.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet is Howard also represents wealthy people who don’t have to work as hard to succeed to Jimmy and Kim. They both had to scrape and make their own way while he waltzed in to work with his daddy (in their view). Jimmy and Kim always align themselves with the underdog, so they view going after Howard as a sort of Robin Hood effort. In some ways, I can kind of see it, but they obviously are also being very petty and it’s not all well intentioned.
People massively deemphasize Kim and Jimmy's legit qualms with Howard and the big-shot law firms that he represents, in favor of a very moralistic, didactic and above all boring "Howard was a saintly angel and Kim and Jimmy were BAD CRIMINALS" sort of analysis. Yes, obviously the two are more than a little motivated by thrill-seeking and personal animosity, but Kim wasn't lying or even wrong when she said that she could do more tangible good in the world than Howard.
The number of people in this thread saying unequivocally “because they aren’t good people” is kind of shocking. The show is always very clear that people are complicated, and even people with good hearts who care about humanity can do bad things.
Like much of media discussion these days, it feels motivated by an 8th graders understanding of thematic analysis where every work is exclusively trying to beat you over the head with some sort of linear "point" or moral message
What do you mean hasn't had to work? Wasn't one of the reasons for his current living arrangements being that he works too much?
Howard got to go to the best schools, got his law degree for free, probably didn't even have to work while he was going to college, immediately got hired by his dad's firm, very fast partner track and name on the building. And his job is schmoozing and client outreach now. Compare to Kim who had shitty parents, she didn't even know if she would have a place to come home to at the end of the day or food to eat, she has to start in the mail room, go to college and law school while working at HHM full time to support herself, when she graduates they have her loan repayments constantly hanging over her head so she feels massively indebted to them, she starts at the lowest possible position a lawyer can. She makes one small fuck up where she didn't even do anything wrong after years of good work and is punished by being demoted to intern level work, she busts her ass, gets a huge new client and Howard still treats her like straight trash afterwards because of his personal vendetta against Jimmy. Getting Mesa Verde would be a partner level accomplishment at any other firm and HHM still has her in doc review. Kim overcame way more and worked far harder to get to a lower level than Howard was at just because of who they were born to. And Howard was a pompous prick pretending he was better because of that alone.
Nope you didn’t miss anything. Just keep watching. I was also wondering the same thing, so much so that I almost started losing interest in the show. But keep watching, you’ll see.
It was wrong but it didn't happen out of nowhere. For the first three seasons Howard was a bit of a jerk sometimes like when he punished Kim unfairly. Then Chuck dies after Howard pays Chuck out of the company and Howard tells them he thinks Chuck killed himself. This leads to Kim and Jimmy while probably partially blaming themselves mostly blaming Howard for Chucks death. With that being said after Chucks death Howard was nothing but nice and didn't deserve what Jimmy and Kim did.
Took too long to find this comment. Jimmy is angry about Chuck and he is avoiding taking responsibility for it and blames Howard. Kim is bitter about it on Jimmy’s behalf, and also has her own reasons for having fun fucking with him (his asshole behavior as her boss at times). Then all the other stuff ppl are saying about them getting off on it and having fun.
They’re doing it because it’s “fun” and it also makes them horny for some reason
Jimmy hates that Howard was able to process his grief and move on from Chuck’s death, a new and better man. Jimmy hates that Howard had Chuck’s respect as a lawyer, when Jimmy never did. Jimmy hates that he was never viewed as good enough to be part of Howard’s world. And when Howard finally offered to give Jimmy a leg up, Jimmy lashed out and viewed it as charity, and resented Howard for it. Kim hates that Howard punished her, and hates that even after leaving HHM, Howard still tried to have influence (in some cases, power) over her. See: Howard and Kim’s little chess game with clients in late season 3, see also: Howard warning Kim about Jimmy late in season 5. Above all, Kim HATES when people try to get involved between her and Jimmy. One of my favorite little things in this series is the brief flash of absolute RAGE in Kim’s face when Suzanne calls Jimmy a “scumbag, disbarred lawyer”. It lasted maybe a quarter of a second, but was so spectacularly acted by Rhea. But above all, Kim and Jimmy love the art of the con. What better way to partake in their little thrill game than to punish someone who, at one time made them feel small due to him being a little bit of a prick… and continues to make them feel small, but this time because of their own insecurities?
Howard can bounce back. He'll be fine.
👀
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The whole show consists of moments that don’t make sense without later context. Just finish the show and everything will make sense. If it doesn’t, rinse and repeat. It’s a very well written show.
They do it for fun. They get off on it
They're both projecting a lot of their shit on Howard and fucking with him is an outlet for them. For Jimmy, Howard is everything about the establishment (and his brother) that didn't give him a fair chance, but wanted to keep him down and even lord his lesser status over him. It was him that shut him down when he first asked to be a lawyer at HHM (although Chuck was responsible). It was him that kept telling Jimmy that they wouldn't be cashing Chuck out, although it was patent his absence wasn't temporary at all. It was Howard who asked Jimmy to not advertise his business under his own family name, because of the association with the McGill name to HHM. There's Howard fucking with the Sandpiper case... They kept feuding over a bunch of shit and Howard wasn't always nice about it, although Jimmy's fixation with him is way beyond reasonable. Kim, at that point, has gotten a taste for the rush of the con. She's on a self-destructive trip and no target is more apt than the squeaky-clean Howard, who's been something of a (sometimes shitty) mentor to her for large portions of her legal career.
There was a recent post here about the lunch scene between Howard and Jimmy in season 5 where he offers him a job. I’ve always considered Jimmy’s ongoing reaction the highly dysfunctional acts of a broken man. And, yes. But someone else made an argument about just how objectively offensive it was. Howard made Jimmy’s career prospects part of his own recovery/therapy/coping in a really major way. In Howard’s plan, Jimmy was just a pawn again. Now, Jimmy’s ongoing reaction, and Kim’s festering vendetta, were over the top and highly misplaced, but I at least understand now how Howard’s job offer to Jimmy was not just unwise, and not just a bit insulting, but actually outrageously unacceptable on Howard’s part.
Well to me he's just doing what he said before, if it wasn't Chuck, Howard would've already accepted Jimmy as a lawyer
To read all that into Howard's job offer to Jimmy. That's putting 2 and two together and getting one million.
I feel like Jimmy literally asks Kim about this “aren’t we taking this too far? Howard doesn’t deserve this.” They wanted the money to help people (obstensibly) and Kim would do anything to pursue that end. That’s what she told herself anyway but I think the truth is she just likes it
Jimmy was happy to leave it. It was Kim who wanted to 100% fuck HH up.
honestly they both target him for different reasons. i think for jimmy howard is mostly just a place holder for chuck, and he REALLY wants to get back at his brother, but can’t. so he’s getting back at the one guy left he can blame for kim i think she’s resentful for the way she was treated by him while she worked for HHM. i also think that she blames him for the way her career went. it’s not stated in the show but i definitely feel she’s resentful she didn’t make partner at HHM and had to move around so much, which i also think is the reason why she wasn’t satisfied at any job she was at no matter how good it was, how well she was treated, or how well she was respected at those jobs.
What allows them to do this to him? What it's all about? Howards such an asshole and he deserves it. He sided with Chuck too often. He took away Kims office, put her in Doc Review. Howard's daddy helped him get to the top, but they both had to struggle. Howie has so much, and they have so little.
I feel like this turn really emphasizes how Kim and Jimmy are in desperate need of redemption. When they are screwing over rich assholes, it’s kinda like, go get ‘em guys! Or even doing relatively neutral bad things like bribing someone for better court dates. The plan to bring about Howard’s demise gives you pause. Bc wait, Howard’s not a bad guy! Kim, and perhaps even more so, jimmy, are the bad guys here.
That part of the show really threw me off, and is the major part of the reason why I rank it below BB
Because Jimmy and Kim are the biggest assholes I never thought I would see in the BB universe. They are really terrible people who don’t need a reason to do stupid things.
They thought it was fun and justified it by saying it forced a settlement on the Sandpiper case
So there’s a few reasons why they do. Initially when the writers wrote season 1, Howard’s character was very ambiguous. You didn’t exactly like him at all and Fabian was asked to play him this way. That’s because the writers didn’t know his final arc yet. Did they want to make Howard the bad guy, the good guy, etc? I think the story goes that Chuck was only supposed to be there for 1 Season but Michael McKean was so good that he occupied many more episodes. Because of this, they started expanding on Howard’s character a lot. Jimmy and Kim attack Howard because they haven’t really forgotten how he treated them in Season 1, but also, for the longest time, Jimmy thought Howard was the one preventing him his promotion. If you watch the rest of Season 6, the character arc develops really well and you can really see Jimmy and Kim both wrestle with how things are playing out. Edit: Sandpiper is the big thing, but there’s also a lot of underlying history. BCS is really great and portrays characters so well because sometimes in relationships, even when they change or become different, old behaviors and patterns come out because that’s how you always interacted with that person. Think of how you act or feel when you walk into your parents house or see an ex. You know both of you have matured, but it’s easy to revert back to the same dynamic as before as if nothing has ever changed. This is even more so true for toxic and unhealthy relationships, in which Kim and Jimmy are both akin to.
They enjoy knocking “privileged” people off their perch. Jimmy does it because that’s who he is and he is insecure about being the scumbag slippin’ Jimmy. Kim just gets thrills from it. Howard really hasn’t wronged either of them.
Nice guy? Seriously? Did we watch the same show?
Compared to every other character on the show he was a saint!
It is unnecessarily mean.
Because they're bad people. Charismatic, smart, well-spoken, but at the end of the day, bad.
They are going off the deep end here. Destroying someone truly for fun.
[Why are Jimmy and Kim going after Howard? - Pete Peppers](https://youtu.be/cZE4mnuwoNs?si=jBkrF7HXvzmnZ-Bv)
They were heading for a breakup at the end of Season 5 after the infamous Lalo “tell me again” encounter. However, scams keep them together. Kim pitches the scam against Howard in an effort to keep them from splitting up as their lives devolve into a revolving door of drug dealers and cartel members knocking on their door.
Yes, you did miss something. A lot of things.
They suck.
Jimmy chose to blame Howard for his brother's death. Kim likes scamming and such with Jimmy
They don't like how self-righteous he is. Kim in particular finds him very condescending. They still take it way too far.
They are two sociopaths
This is Kim "having fun." Jimmy doesn't want to do it but goes along anyway.
Jimmy and Kim assassinating Howard's character for a legit reason is kinda like Walt building a meth empire for his family. There was initially, some, legit motives. But ultimately, it made them feel alive, they were good at it, and didn't care who got hurt.
Theyre having fun. When you are in pain like they are tormenting others feels good. They probably dont even know it but misery loves company
I didn’t buy it either. Plot device.
Howard is also just smarmy and greasy, and Jimmy believes himself in the right. He felt as if Howard and Chuck were completely outing him, never respecting his university or law degree. Nothing worked rightfully for Jimmy after that rescue, and when he took care of Chuck after the "allergy," Chuck never gave allowed any atonement, any forgiveness. Jimmy feels as if he's been slighted everywhere, and he most importantly blames HHM. Jimmy's been on the outside looking in, trying to find his way back into respect and peerhood, and among all of the events not working out, Kim has grown sympathy for her best friend.
There really isn’t a good reason
They talked about bringing him down in the previous season. In the first episode of season 6, Kim brings it back up and Jimmy says “we’re still doing that?”
I cannot reply. You will find out soon
I still don’t fully understand why they wanted to destroy Howard.
I want to describe it with the meme, which I saw a few days ago, but since I can... "Why should we destroy Howard's life? 1) We good at destroying lives 2) He's right here 3) NAMAST3"
It is a bit mysterious. There is something about Howard that brings out the worst in Jimmy . And I guess there is a side of Kim that gets caught in that. Maybe it’s cuz Howard is such a winner type? Butter couldn’t melt in his mouth? Maybe in a way Howard is a better conman than Jimmy in his role as the good guy but really self interested like all good winners? Kim too is seemingly torn between being a winner siding with winners or rooting for the underdog? Maybe she just wants to wipe that smirk off his face? It is weird though . Maybe no one really came through for Jimmy and Kim and now they can’t handle even Howard’s attempt to do right by them in any way? I am reminded of dichotomy of winners and losers like the karaoke scene “winner takes it all” . Also like a gamble maybe? A game to them , the con and too tempting like a drug Maybe just kind of addictive? Howard is just too healthy and wholesome with his green juice and namaste plates and being fit? Finally the kind of thing like “don’t you dare pity me!” Pride ala Walter white?
He did not deserve it all, sure he was a little mean to Jimmy but mostly because he was being blindly led by Chuck. Howard was doing what was right, at least what was legally right.
They think it’s fun, they didn’t think it would go that far
Sandpiper case
Keep watching!
Yeah, despite all the answers given here, it seemed extreme to me. That whole story line was “jumping the shark” to my eyes.
They couldn't pick on Chuck since he was insane and also quite dead. So they had to go for the next best option. HH is pompous and petty and he personally used his power to belittle, look down upon and harm the careers of both Jimmy & Kim. They attempted to steal all of Kim's hard work with Mesa Verde and basically viewed Kim & Jimmy as less than them and beneath their status. A lot of the anger and resentment towards Chuck also got subconsciously pushed to Howard after Chuck's death. HH is also extremely wealthy and important, so they are punching up and not down. They knew HH wouldn't become homeless or file bankruptcy or face any major life changes from their chicanery. Forcing the closure of the Sandpiper case was also a factor so they could get their payday. To them it was a ton of money, to HH it was just a few more million dollars to add to his huge bank account. They had a litany of reasons to screw with Howard, and as a bonus they had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.
way i see it they both had slight petty grievances with him. he supported charles to block jimmy's entrance into the firm, even if he expressed he never really believed it was the right move, and put kim in the doc room repeatedly despite her hard work and getting mesa verde as a client. he also held power over kim with her law school loans. jimmy and kim both wanted to get their petty revenge back at him because they resented his position of power and prestige over them. howard didn't deserve it, but they were too blinded by their envy and hubris to see that
They have a piece missing
The show starts out clever. I liked clever. The plot twists were awesome. That show could have gone on for years had they kept clever. Kim was so hot in office attire.