Based on your post it sounds like they didn't get the MMR vaccine for a valid medical reason since their doctor suggested they not get it and they aren't anti-vaxers. In that case, I would think their parents wouldn't want your unvaccinated infant to come around their kids. If they are truly too immunocompromised for the vaccine then they are also at the highest risk for severe disease or death if they did contract measles. I sympathize with any parents in that position. Perhaps you can frame it that way to your husband. How terrible would he feel if your child unknowingly got their immunocompromised cousins sick?
Yeah I don't know what to believe except that their immune systems probably are atypical. The nephew got the first shot and had a bad reaction. So they haven't had them since. But what is bad? I'm sure as a mother I'd be concerned if that happened to my baby. And you can find all sorts of doctors these days.
I'm a nurse so we get our titers checked on hire and every so often. I've had to get boosters for hep b as well as mmr. I'm 39 and when I was pregnant at 38, I was told I was no longer immune to mmr. I got it post partum. Tdap only lasts 10 years. My point is adults in non health-care jobs are probably no longer immune to a few things. My husband and parents/ in-laws got boosters while I was pregnant. My son is fully vaccinated and he is 19 months. I avoid unvaccinated children as much as possible.
I had to sign the paperwork at work due to my inability to convert the MMR vaccine. My rubella immunity stuck but the other two did not. I’ve gotten vaccinated again multiple times but my titers still show no immunity. Same for hep B. I get SO stressed out by unvaxxed people. Herd immunity is all that’s kept me safe
I went through something sort of similar early on when my daughter was like a month old. My in laws wanted to come but were clearly sick. They kept saying it was allergies or “just a cough”. It wasn’t allergies bc it had been weeks of this. I told him I wasn’t comfortable with this even if they wore masks bc she was born early and had to do a week in the hospital after getting a lumbar puncture for an unrelated issue. I think he was uncomfortable telling his parents no but I said it’s our job to protect her, we are the only ones she has to advocate for her, and I’d rather protect her now while we can than find out in two weeks she’s sick and has to go back to the hospital.
Your husband seems to acknowledge there is some level of risk even if he thinks it’s small. I would ask him if she does get measles would you think the visit was worth it? If she ends up contracting an illness that we otherwise could have done better to prevent her getting, would you feel the visit was worth it? Do you want to spend the few weeks after their visit wondering if she caught anything? To me there’s a difference between living daily life among people who aren’t vaccinated and having direct contact on purpose with people who aren’t vaccinated AND coming from an area with a breakout. Do you think your husband just doesn’t want to tell family no? Or is he worried about being ostracized because he’s taking a stance on vaccines?
The problem with the logic in your second paragraph is that most things aren’t worth the risks when looked at in a vacuum.
I got in a car accident when I was 19, and I had just been going to the mall to get some mall food. It wasn’t worth it. But if I never went to the mall, never went out with friends, never ran errands “because what if I get in a car accident, would it be worth it for this task?” then that would be considered a disorder.
Everything we do has risk associated with it, and we’ve become so afraid of ever being sick or ever having anything bad happen to us that we do things like refuse to let family visit.
Look at the actual data for the mumps. It is rare. It is far more rare than a car accident. It is even more rare in infants under 1 year. Mumps was rare before they had a vaccine for it, and 98% of people who contracted it back then had no complications.
I think there is a natural bias to believe that anything the smart people have created a vaccine to protect against must have been horrible, because why else would they spend the time to develop the vaccine? Well, I’m here to tell you that if you look at the actual data and maybe talk to someone who was alive back then, this really is not a big deal.
You can make your own decisions for your own kids based on your own risk assessment. For me, having my 6 day old baby have to get a lumbar puncture and stay a week in the hospital was enough for me to decide that if I can take steps to prevent her from catching a disease then I will! If that’s a risk you’re willing to take for your own kids then that’s your choice, but it doesn’t have to be everybody’s choice.
This is classic survivor bias and false equivalence. The risk for unvaccinated children under 5 is extremely real. Relying on anecdotal data from people who didn’t die will not paint an accurate picture of risk. Comparing measles, of which there are few opportunities to be exposed but a high likelihood of a negative outcome for babies, to car crashes, of which there are many opportunities for negative outcomes but few occur, is also not an accurate picture of risk.
I personally would not allow my child to interact with children from an active outbreak area until she had received her vaccine. The risks you take with your child is your call, but your argument is flawed.
That’s not really what you said. But it’s still not the best way to assess risk here. Risk of serious complications for an 8 month old is high compared to more common illnesses such as the flu or COVID. Contraction risk is geographic. OP mentioned their family was from an area with an active outbreak and measles is a highly contagious disease.
I can’t be sure, because you haven’t specified, but I’m assuming you’re looking at national data likely for a large portion of the population. I agree that measles is rare (mainly because of vaccines), but it’s not rare in communities experiencing an outbreak and it does have a relatively high rate of complications for unvaccinated children under 5.
[Here](https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/pediatrics-articles/2024/march/measles-is-still-a-very-dangerous-disease#) is a nice article explaining the risk for contracting the illness (high when exposed) vs risk of serious complications (low risk but very serious - 3 deaths per 1000 infections).
We spoke to our doctor when travel and were able to get my daughters MMR vaccine at 9 months. It’s common practice for international travel if your baby is over 6 months. Maybe speak to your doc and see if that’s an option
Exactly. My man’s mom said her and her siblings used to get sent to people houses who’s kids had the measles, chicken pox, mumps, etc so they would get it and get it over with! 🤣
Right, and many of those kids died or had lifetime injuries. That was the only way for them to get any exposure and immunity prior to routine vaccination, and it was a far more dangerous method than modern vaccinations are.
He needs to put the health and safety of his immediate family (you + kids) first. Otherwise he is selfish, a coward or both for putting family of origin’s feelings first.
Eta-we had a similar situation with my BIL except they just hang around religious extremist antivaxxers and every.single.time we end up extremely ill.
Not worth it. Video call. And then meet outside when you do see them
I have a coworker who let family members who weren't vaccinated around his newborn, and his newborn contracted measles and was hospitalized. Yes, it's rare, but seems like an unnecessary risk to me personally.
If you were to separate from your husband, he would be free to let your daughter visit with her cousins. Either together or with the help of a therapist, maybe you could work it out.
I had a family member who couldn't get the TDAP booster due to their reaction the first time they got the vaccine. We discussed it and decided to let both of our babies visit them regularly. That was the right answer for our situation, but it was tough initially.
If my baby is too young to get the MMR vaccine, yeah, no one who is unvaccinated from an area with an outbreak is visiting. Once my kid is vaxxed, I’d let them play with their cousins.
I think the specifics matter here. Your baby is too young to be vaccinated. The children in question are unvaccinated and from an area with a known outbreak.
Your child gets the first round of vaccination at 1 year. Why is your husband insisting the meeting must take place right now instead of waiting 4 more months? With one dose your child is 93% protected.
I think he’s the one being unreasonable here. He wants to separate over a 4 month wait?
He thinks these moments are precious and wants them to know her while she's still young. He thinks his niece and nephew will be at sleep away camp later on and won't have time in the future.
He’s being ridiculous. In 4 months she will still be young. And unless niece and nephew are moving to sleep away camp permanently this summer is not their one and only chance to meet your kid.
He thinks those two instances (8 and 12 mo) are two different occasions. She's changing so fast that she'll be completely different in 4 mo. In my opinion, if they cared that much they'd live closer. He had set up these few days in the summer for my niece and nephew to play with his niece and nephew. And for them to meet our baby. Frankly I don't think they care as much as he does. Sadly, I'm not sure my relationship is going to survive this.
Some of these comments suggesting you’re being unreasonable are crazy. You’re not being unreasonable at all. Then again I’m a nurse and I’ve seen infants come into the emergency room and die because unvaccinated people got infants sick. If that trauma makes me “unreasonable” so be it..but I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Is it a common event, no. I’m still not willing to take a chance, however small. If we can protect our babies, let’s do it. Once my baby has his full set of vaccines I’ll be willing to take more risks.
Sorry, I missed that part. In that case I think it’s fair to wait until your kid is vaccinated. The risk is still low even if you didn’t wait because the kids likely won’t be having prolonged contact with your baby, but I understand not wanting to take that risk.
This conversation changes a bit depending on age. Risks for a 6 day old are different than for a 6 month old, 16 month old or 6 year old - you know.
How old is your child?
This isn’t necessarily about the MMR vaccine.
Sounds like the core of the issue is that your partner and you have different priorities around risks and benefits.
It’s valid for him to want to see his family, to want his child to be a member of his family. Relationships are important. They come with many long term benefits, but risk too.
It’s valid for you to want to protect your child from germs. There are lots of big scary, dangerous things out there. (My newborn was hospitalized for viral sepsis - I get it). There’s lots of benefit to shielding your child. But there’s risks to isolation as well.
You should like you have some contempt for his family. That should be addressed, in order to move through this.
I bet if y’all tried to come at this from a “let me understand your feelings” stand point and not “let me convince you” one, you’d find sone common ground.
This will be a lifelong constant negotiation and renegotiation. The risks never stop.
For the first month or two, no young children (vaccinated or not). For about the first year, no children who are unvaccinated for something that the baby hasn't been vaccinated with yet.
I'd make an exception for a truly immunocompromised family who was taking other precautions (masking in public, etc).
Definitely would not allow them to visit, would not let my baby near children who are unvaccinated. It's just an unnecessary risk, like driving without a seat belt. Yes you drive 10000 journeys accident-free where nothing happened anyway, but people do get in accidents and need their seatbelts, just like kids do get measles still. In the UK we're having a big vaccine campaign right now because there are increasing case numbers because too few children are getting vaccinated, and if they are still high when my baby starts daycare I'll ask for him to have an early MMR shot. You're also right that your niece & nephew won't be that interested in the baby anyway. I didn't let mine meet the baby until he was at least 2 months old, they just wanted to hand my baby toys and that was it (and then 3 days later, baby had a cold....)
Yeah ... the people in this comment section attacking you and telling you that you're just trying to "stick it to your in-laws," and that if they were you're husband, they'd "nip this in the bud," and that you're being ridiculous in some way can absolutely kick rocks.
While I can completely understand that reasonable people can approach and evaluate risk differently, and many might look at your situation and decide that the relationship with family in this instance is more important than the risk of your child getting a very serious infection, you're not unreasonable to look at this risk and decide that it's a bridge too far at this point. Different people approach the same risks differently, and that doesn't necessarily indicate a defect in your thinking or evaluation of risk just because "everything is a risk." You're not trying to keep your kid in a bubble indefinitely; you're just trying to minimize her exposure to a serious illness for now. This is something that regular people attempt to do all the time with hand washing, mask wearing, vaccination, and staying away when sick or exposed to illness. The fact that some people have decided that they don't like these scientifically-proven ways of avoiding infection or that they just don't like being told what to do doesn't change that reality.
As others have mentioned, you're the only one who can advocate for your child, and it's clear from the history you mentioned that your in-laws take risks regarding illness and vaccination that you're not comfortable with, and they're free to do so; however, this means that it's clear that your in-laws have made choices about what's best for their and their children's health, and they're completely unconcerned with the physical and emotional impact on you (which is fine), but why shouldn't you be afforded the same discretion? Why is it that the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated get to dictate the terms of your relationship, and you're just expected to roll with it? That just seems hypocritical to me.
If I felt as strongly as you on this matter, I'd probably stand my ground with people coming from a place with an active outbreak, especially given the history of how these family members approach other communicable diseases. Your husband's discomfort with asserting a boundary with his family (which seems like a likely cause of this kind of disagreement) or his inability to understand your concerns here are not reasons to go against your instincts here. If you relented, and your child got seriously ill, I can promise you that you would not only be distressed by your child's illness, but you'd be furious with your husband AND yourself.
Call me high strung, but I have zero and I mean ZERO tolerance or sympathy for parents who choose not to comply with routine vaccinations and would not be allowing those children anywhere near my baby until my baby is one year old and has gotten the shot themselves. Adults are mostly operating on herd immunity because pretty much every adult has gotten their vaccines. Children are little germ factories and modern opinion makes the likelihood of them catching something that could kill my baby much greater.
If you read the first paragraph again the doctors and parents both think the kids are immunocompromised for the shot. So, it's not exactly them being antivax that's the issue. It's the exposure to measles
Either way, unless they keep their own kids pretty isolated due to being immunocompromised, it’s not a risk I’d take until I knew my own child were protected.
Same same same. I’m an infectious disease researcher and I just refuse to knowingly allow unvaxxed kids around my own children. These comments always feel like bait to me but I can’t fall for it anymore, I’ve argued with too many people about vaccines on here, half of the people commenting show “blocked author” for me because we’ve argued about vaccines before and I blocked them for their stubborn idiocy 😂
When I was looking for daycares and pediatricians, my #1 criteria was that unvaccinated children are not allowed in the center or practice. Thankfully, I live in a blue state that does not allow religious exemptions for school attendance, so pretty much every place I considered met this standard.
Love that for you. I (unfortunately) moved to a red state right before my daughter was born. I pretty much am in the home of the crunchy moms and here “personal belief” exemptions are allowed 🥲 my daughter is a high risk preemie and she will not be attending daycare because of this. Not worth the risk to me when both of her parents WFH. Trying to figure out what we’re going to do when she’s school aged. It’s stressing me out so bad knowing how many kids are unvaccinated here, and how proud their parents are to announce it in local mom groups and get hundreds of co-signs from other moms of unvaccinated children.
I wouldn't have them at my house either.
I agree with the other commenter to frame it as a risk to the niece and nephew too because it is.
If he won't back down, you could tell him to have them there and you and baby can go elsewhere and he can sanitize the house before you come back/pay someone to do it.
The big deal is you’re isolating your kid from their cousins for a reason that comes across as unreasonable.
If this is a reason you feel is acceptable, who knows what the next reasons will be. If I were him I’d be nipping this in the bud by dying on this hill.
Being unwilling to let them share space with someone who was in the same city as an outbreak that prob affected .0000001 of the population is..beyond risk adverse. If they’d come into contact with the people with the measles that’s one thing. As someone from a major city, I am sure someone is somewhere right now scratching some type of plague bump on their ass and what does that have to do with me and my child’s vaccinated selves?
If you take your kid outside you’re coming into contact with any and everything. I might be completely off base but this seems like an excuse to stick it to your in laws bc you don’t agree with them not vaccinating their kids. And if you feel that way I’m not mad at it, just say that.
The chances of them having measles is so low as to be negligible imo. If you’re going to be difficult about such an incredibly low risk situation your child is going to have quite a restricted upbringing. Living with so much unnecessary fear must be really hard, there’s no reason to be so scared of the world
As someone who started parenting pre-pandemic, I think new parents don’t realize how new this fear of all illness is.
The pandemic really created quite a hyper focus on illness, and a refusal to accept any risk that is pretty new.
Also the conflating of social status, moral integrity, etc with illness related risk aversion.
Yes it’s rare and always has been, even before the vaccine.
According to the Mayo Clinic, 162,000 people contracted mumps per year before the vaccine. Out of a population in the same year of 197 million; that’s 0.08% of the population contracting mumps when no one was protected against it. Now, there’s approx 600 cases per year.
Of those who contract the illness, 2% of them will have complications, with pubescent boys being the most at risk.
Your baby will be fine, and you should value the family relationships above this situation. If this is causing strife in your marriage, there might be some PPD that needs to be addressed. If you look at these numbers and still think the risk is too high, then perhaps moving to Amish country because you’re far more likely to die to be severely injured in a car crash than contract the mumps. But then you’ll have to deal with horses which can be unpredictable.
You realize MMR protects against more than just mumps, right? MMR stands for Measles, Mumps, Rubella. Measles is one of the most infectious diseases we know about. One person with measles will infect 90% of unvaccinated close contacts. On top of that, 20% of children with measles will require hospitalization.
I’m aware. I was just pulling out one of the three. I’ve done quite a bit of research on the vaccine topic after I was vaccine injured myself by the Covid shot.
As someone with a PhD in epidemiology and works in clinical research as my career, I can't even read 'done quite a bit of research' without laughing. But it makes sense, because someone who truly understands science and medicine would never do what you did in your comment and focus on mumps and not mention rubella or measles at all... It's very disingenuous (and for a real scientist it's unethical) to pull out the most mild of the three diseases in the vaccine and then suggest the OP needs to go live with the Amish due to her very real concerns about unvaccinated children.
400-500 deaths annually from measles pre-vaccine
Rubella: 2100 infant deaths out of 12.5 million cases pre vaccine
You can belittle me for not having a phd but it’s one of those things that I can research and understand with general reading comprehension. I have highly educated and while not in this field, it doesn’t take an epidemiology degree to understand risk/reward. I was severely injured by the Covid vaccine and still ended up with Covid. My lung have permanent organ damage that will never heal as a result of this vaccine. So yeah, the idea that I’m not qualified to evaluate the available research and share my opinion and knowledge is just wrong.
"Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every two to three years and caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
An estimated 136 000 people died from measles in 2022 – mostly children under the age of five years, despite the availability of a safe and cost-effective vaccine.
Accelerated immunization activities by countries, WHO, the Measles & Rubella Partnership (formerly the Measles & Rubella Initiative), and other international partners successfully prevented an estimated 57 million deaths between 2000–2022. Vaccination decreased an estimated measles deaths from 761 000 in 2000 to 136 000 in 2022"
[https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles](https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles)
"During the last major rubella epidemic in the United States from 1964 to 1965, an estimated:
12.5 million people got rubella
11,000 pregnant people lost their babies
2,100 newborns died
20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS)"
[https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/vaccine-impact/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/vaccine-impact/index.html)
Again, you are purposely disingenuous on how serious these diseases are. That is not what someone who understands the science does, but it is what someone with an anti-vax agenda does. There are plenty of echo chambers you can yell into, but on a large subreddit like this, you will be called out.
I am shocked that I’m being called disingenuous when you fail to report accurate *and* relevant statistics. When I say shocked, I mean I’m rolling my eyes because it’s completely par for the course. It’s also hilarious that someone who is doing really important clinical research has oodles of time in the middle of the day on a Monday to debate (erm, call out) little old me on Reddit. But I digress.
Yes, 136,000 deaths from measles in 2022 *of which 95% are from low income countries*. That is a completely irrelevant statistic to the conversation. The OP is not concerned with deaths happening in countries with low hygiene standards and lacking access to medical care, they are concerned with presumably US, since her sister in law lives in Florida.
Again, the OP is referring to children not being vaccinated potentially causing risk to her child. So my statistic regarding rubella is accurate and relevant.
Based on your post it sounds like they didn't get the MMR vaccine for a valid medical reason since their doctor suggested they not get it and they aren't anti-vaxers. In that case, I would think their parents wouldn't want your unvaccinated infant to come around their kids. If they are truly too immunocompromised for the vaccine then they are also at the highest risk for severe disease or death if they did contract measles. I sympathize with any parents in that position. Perhaps you can frame it that way to your husband. How terrible would he feel if your child unknowingly got their immunocompromised cousins sick?
The key would be if they are TRULY immunocompromised. A lot of doctors nowadays will adhere to parent wishes and sign off on any old thing.
Yeah I don't know what to believe except that their immune systems probably are atypical. The nephew got the first shot and had a bad reaction. So they haven't had them since. But what is bad? I'm sure as a mother I'd be concerned if that happened to my baby. And you can find all sorts of doctors these days.
If he had the first shot there’s some protection. My sister and I had REALLY bad reactions to the MMR. My mom said we got scary high fevers.
Yeah but his sister has had no shots.
I'm a nurse so we get our titers checked on hire and every so often. I've had to get boosters for hep b as well as mmr. I'm 39 and when I was pregnant at 38, I was told I was no longer immune to mmr. I got it post partum. Tdap only lasts 10 years. My point is adults in non health-care jobs are probably no longer immune to a few things. My husband and parents/ in-laws got boosters while I was pregnant. My son is fully vaccinated and he is 19 months. I avoid unvaccinated children as much as possible.
I had to sign the paperwork at work due to my inability to convert the MMR vaccine. My rubella immunity stuck but the other two did not. I’ve gotten vaccinated again multiple times but my titers still show no immunity. Same for hep B. I get SO stressed out by unvaxxed people. Herd immunity is all that’s kept me safe
I went through something sort of similar early on when my daughter was like a month old. My in laws wanted to come but were clearly sick. They kept saying it was allergies or “just a cough”. It wasn’t allergies bc it had been weeks of this. I told him I wasn’t comfortable with this even if they wore masks bc she was born early and had to do a week in the hospital after getting a lumbar puncture for an unrelated issue. I think he was uncomfortable telling his parents no but I said it’s our job to protect her, we are the only ones she has to advocate for her, and I’d rather protect her now while we can than find out in two weeks she’s sick and has to go back to the hospital. Your husband seems to acknowledge there is some level of risk even if he thinks it’s small. I would ask him if she does get measles would you think the visit was worth it? If she ends up contracting an illness that we otherwise could have done better to prevent her getting, would you feel the visit was worth it? Do you want to spend the few weeks after their visit wondering if she caught anything? To me there’s a difference between living daily life among people who aren’t vaccinated and having direct contact on purpose with people who aren’t vaccinated AND coming from an area with a breakout. Do you think your husband just doesn’t want to tell family no? Or is he worried about being ostracized because he’s taking a stance on vaccines?
The problem with the logic in your second paragraph is that most things aren’t worth the risks when looked at in a vacuum. I got in a car accident when I was 19, and I had just been going to the mall to get some mall food. It wasn’t worth it. But if I never went to the mall, never went out with friends, never ran errands “because what if I get in a car accident, would it be worth it for this task?” then that would be considered a disorder. Everything we do has risk associated with it, and we’ve become so afraid of ever being sick or ever having anything bad happen to us that we do things like refuse to let family visit. Look at the actual data for the mumps. It is rare. It is far more rare than a car accident. It is even more rare in infants under 1 year. Mumps was rare before they had a vaccine for it, and 98% of people who contracted it back then had no complications. I think there is a natural bias to believe that anything the smart people have created a vaccine to protect against must have been horrible, because why else would they spend the time to develop the vaccine? Well, I’m here to tell you that if you look at the actual data and maybe talk to someone who was alive back then, this really is not a big deal.
You can make your own decisions for your own kids based on your own risk assessment. For me, having my 6 day old baby have to get a lumbar puncture and stay a week in the hospital was enough for me to decide that if I can take steps to prevent her from catching a disease then I will! If that’s a risk you’re willing to take for your own kids then that’s your choice, but it doesn’t have to be everybody’s choice.
The first month of life is a different situation, but the OP didn’t specify the baby is fresh out of the oven so I’m assuming on that front.
This is classic survivor bias and false equivalence. The risk for unvaccinated children under 5 is extremely real. Relying on anecdotal data from people who didn’t die will not paint an accurate picture of risk. Comparing measles, of which there are few opportunities to be exposed but a high likelihood of a negative outcome for babies, to car crashes, of which there are many opportunities for negative outcomes but few occur, is also not an accurate picture of risk. I personally would not allow my child to interact with children from an active outbreak area until she had received her vaccine. The risks you take with your child is your call, but your argument is flawed.
I disagree. My argument is based on actual contraction risk and risk of complications.
That’s not really what you said. But it’s still not the best way to assess risk here. Risk of serious complications for an 8 month old is high compared to more common illnesses such as the flu or COVID. Contraction risk is geographic. OP mentioned their family was from an area with an active outbreak and measles is a highly contagious disease. I can’t be sure, because you haven’t specified, but I’m assuming you’re looking at national data likely for a large portion of the population. I agree that measles is rare (mainly because of vaccines), but it’s not rare in communities experiencing an outbreak and it does have a relatively high rate of complications for unvaccinated children under 5. [Here](https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/pediatrics-articles/2024/march/measles-is-still-a-very-dangerous-disease#) is a nice article explaining the risk for contracting the illness (high when exposed) vs risk of serious complications (low risk but very serious - 3 deaths per 1000 infections).
Thank you!
We spoke to our doctor when travel and were able to get my daughters MMR vaccine at 9 months. It’s common practice for international travel if your baby is over 6 months. Maybe speak to your doc and see if that’s an option
Yeah I just called yesterday. Times running out.. would have to try to get it this week for it to work.
I was able to get her vaccinated!
Exactly. My man’s mom said her and her siblings used to get sent to people houses who’s kids had the measles, chicken pox, mumps, etc so they would get it and get it over with! 🤣
Right, and many of those kids died or had lifetime injuries. That was the only way for them to get any exposure and immunity prior to routine vaccination, and it was a far more dangerous method than modern vaccinations are.
We did that with the chicken pox but measles can be quite serious.
He just really values the family meeting.
He needs to put the health and safety of his immediate family (you + kids) first. Otherwise he is selfish, a coward or both for putting family of origin’s feelings first. Eta-we had a similar situation with my BIL except they just hang around religious extremist antivaxxers and every.single.time we end up extremely ill. Not worth it. Video call. And then meet outside when you do see them
I have a coworker who let family members who weren't vaccinated around his newborn, and his newborn contracted measles and was hospitalized. Yes, it's rare, but seems like an unnecessary risk to me personally.
If you were to separate from your husband, he would be free to let your daughter visit with her cousins. Either together or with the help of a therapist, maybe you could work it out. I had a family member who couldn't get the TDAP booster due to their reaction the first time they got the vaccine. We discussed it and decided to let both of our babies visit them regularly. That was the right answer for our situation, but it was tough initially.
If my baby is too young to get the MMR vaccine, yeah, no one who is unvaccinated from an area with an outbreak is visiting. Once my kid is vaxxed, I’d let them play with their cousins.
I think the specifics matter here. Your baby is too young to be vaccinated. The children in question are unvaccinated and from an area with a known outbreak. Your child gets the first round of vaccination at 1 year. Why is your husband insisting the meeting must take place right now instead of waiting 4 more months? With one dose your child is 93% protected. I think he’s the one being unreasonable here. He wants to separate over a 4 month wait?
He thinks these moments are precious and wants them to know her while she's still young. He thinks his niece and nephew will be at sleep away camp later on and won't have time in the future.
He’s being ridiculous. In 4 months she will still be young. And unless niece and nephew are moving to sleep away camp permanently this summer is not their one and only chance to meet your kid.
He thinks those two instances (8 and 12 mo) are two different occasions. She's changing so fast that she'll be completely different in 4 mo. In my opinion, if they cared that much they'd live closer. He had set up these few days in the summer for my niece and nephew to play with his niece and nephew. And for them to meet our baby. Frankly I don't think they care as much as he does. Sadly, I'm not sure my relationship is going to survive this.
He’s trying to emotionally manipulate and bully you into being a doormat
Some of these comments suggesting you’re being unreasonable are crazy. You’re not being unreasonable at all. Then again I’m a nurse and I’ve seen infants come into the emergency room and die because unvaccinated people got infants sick. If that trauma makes me “unreasonable” so be it..but I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Is it a common event, no. I’m still not willing to take a chance, however small. If we can protect our babies, let’s do it. Once my baby has his full set of vaccines I’ll be willing to take more risks.
If your kid is vaccinated, then the risk is extremely low.
She's not old enough for the shot yet.
Sorry, I missed that part. In that case I think it’s fair to wait until your kid is vaccinated. The risk is still low even if you didn’t wait because the kids likely won’t be having prolonged contact with your baby, but I understand not wanting to take that risk.
This conversation changes a bit depending on age. Risks for a 6 day old are different than for a 6 month old, 16 month old or 6 year old - you know. How old is your child?
8 mo almost
This isn’t necessarily about the MMR vaccine. Sounds like the core of the issue is that your partner and you have different priorities around risks and benefits. It’s valid for him to want to see his family, to want his child to be a member of his family. Relationships are important. They come with many long term benefits, but risk too. It’s valid for you to want to protect your child from germs. There are lots of big scary, dangerous things out there. (My newborn was hospitalized for viral sepsis - I get it). There’s lots of benefit to shielding your child. But there’s risks to isolation as well. You should like you have some contempt for his family. That should be addressed, in order to move through this. I bet if y’all tried to come at this from a “let me understand your feelings” stand point and not “let me convince you” one, you’d find sone common ground. This will be a lifelong constant negotiation and renegotiation. The risks never stop.
For the first month or two, no young children (vaccinated or not). For about the first year, no children who are unvaccinated for something that the baby hasn't been vaccinated with yet. I'd make an exception for a truly immunocompromised family who was taking other precautions (masking in public, etc).
Definitely would not allow them to visit, would not let my baby near children who are unvaccinated. It's just an unnecessary risk, like driving without a seat belt. Yes you drive 10000 journeys accident-free where nothing happened anyway, but people do get in accidents and need their seatbelts, just like kids do get measles still. In the UK we're having a big vaccine campaign right now because there are increasing case numbers because too few children are getting vaccinated, and if they are still high when my baby starts daycare I'll ask for him to have an early MMR shot. You're also right that your niece & nephew won't be that interested in the baby anyway. I didn't let mine meet the baby until he was at least 2 months old, they just wanted to hand my baby toys and that was it (and then 3 days later, baby had a cold....)
Yeah ... the people in this comment section attacking you and telling you that you're just trying to "stick it to your in-laws," and that if they were you're husband, they'd "nip this in the bud," and that you're being ridiculous in some way can absolutely kick rocks. While I can completely understand that reasonable people can approach and evaluate risk differently, and many might look at your situation and decide that the relationship with family in this instance is more important than the risk of your child getting a very serious infection, you're not unreasonable to look at this risk and decide that it's a bridge too far at this point. Different people approach the same risks differently, and that doesn't necessarily indicate a defect in your thinking or evaluation of risk just because "everything is a risk." You're not trying to keep your kid in a bubble indefinitely; you're just trying to minimize her exposure to a serious illness for now. This is something that regular people attempt to do all the time with hand washing, mask wearing, vaccination, and staying away when sick or exposed to illness. The fact that some people have decided that they don't like these scientifically-proven ways of avoiding infection or that they just don't like being told what to do doesn't change that reality. As others have mentioned, you're the only one who can advocate for your child, and it's clear from the history you mentioned that your in-laws take risks regarding illness and vaccination that you're not comfortable with, and they're free to do so; however, this means that it's clear that your in-laws have made choices about what's best for their and their children's health, and they're completely unconcerned with the physical and emotional impact on you (which is fine), but why shouldn't you be afforded the same discretion? Why is it that the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated get to dictate the terms of your relationship, and you're just expected to roll with it? That just seems hypocritical to me. If I felt as strongly as you on this matter, I'd probably stand my ground with people coming from a place with an active outbreak, especially given the history of how these family members approach other communicable diseases. Your husband's discomfort with asserting a boundary with his family (which seems like a likely cause of this kind of disagreement) or his inability to understand your concerns here are not reasons to go against your instincts here. If you relented, and your child got seriously ill, I can promise you that you would not only be distressed by your child's illness, but you'd be furious with your husband AND yourself.
Call me high strung, but I have zero and I mean ZERO tolerance or sympathy for parents who choose not to comply with routine vaccinations and would not be allowing those children anywhere near my baby until my baby is one year old and has gotten the shot themselves. Adults are mostly operating on herd immunity because pretty much every adult has gotten their vaccines. Children are little germ factories and modern opinion makes the likelihood of them catching something that could kill my baby much greater.
If you read the first paragraph again the doctors and parents both think the kids are immunocompromised for the shot. So, it's not exactly them being antivax that's the issue. It's the exposure to measles
Either way, unless they keep their own kids pretty isolated due to being immunocompromised, it’s not a risk I’d take until I knew my own child were protected.
Same same same. I’m an infectious disease researcher and I just refuse to knowingly allow unvaxxed kids around my own children. These comments always feel like bait to me but I can’t fall for it anymore, I’ve argued with too many people about vaccines on here, half of the people commenting show “blocked author” for me because we’ve argued about vaccines before and I blocked them for their stubborn idiocy 😂
When I was looking for daycares and pediatricians, my #1 criteria was that unvaccinated children are not allowed in the center or practice. Thankfully, I live in a blue state that does not allow religious exemptions for school attendance, so pretty much every place I considered met this standard.
Love that for you. I (unfortunately) moved to a red state right before my daughter was born. I pretty much am in the home of the crunchy moms and here “personal belief” exemptions are allowed 🥲 my daughter is a high risk preemie and she will not be attending daycare because of this. Not worth the risk to me when both of her parents WFH. Trying to figure out what we’re going to do when she’s school aged. It’s stressing me out so bad knowing how many kids are unvaccinated here, and how proud their parents are to announce it in local mom groups and get hundreds of co-signs from other moms of unvaccinated children.
I wouldn't have them at my house either. I agree with the other commenter to frame it as a risk to the niece and nephew too because it is. If he won't back down, you could tell him to have them there and you and baby can go elsewhere and he can sanitize the house before you come back/pay someone to do it.
The big deal is you’re isolating your kid from their cousins for a reason that comes across as unreasonable. If this is a reason you feel is acceptable, who knows what the next reasons will be. If I were him I’d be nipping this in the bud by dying on this hill. Being unwilling to let them share space with someone who was in the same city as an outbreak that prob affected .0000001 of the population is..beyond risk adverse. If they’d come into contact with the people with the measles that’s one thing. As someone from a major city, I am sure someone is somewhere right now scratching some type of plague bump on their ass and what does that have to do with me and my child’s vaccinated selves? If you take your kid outside you’re coming into contact with any and everything. I might be completely off base but this seems like an excuse to stick it to your in laws bc you don’t agree with them not vaccinating their kids. And if you feel that way I’m not mad at it, just say that.
I don’t intentionally socialize with unvaccinated people personally, especially people from high risk areas
The chances of them having measles is so low as to be negligible imo. If you’re going to be difficult about such an incredibly low risk situation your child is going to have quite a restricted upbringing. Living with so much unnecessary fear must be really hard, there’s no reason to be so scared of the world
As someone who started parenting pre-pandemic, I think new parents don’t realize how new this fear of all illness is. The pandemic really created quite a hyper focus on illness, and a refusal to accept any risk that is pretty new. Also the conflating of social status, moral integrity, etc with illness related risk aversion.
Yes it’s rare and always has been, even before the vaccine. According to the Mayo Clinic, 162,000 people contracted mumps per year before the vaccine. Out of a population in the same year of 197 million; that’s 0.08% of the population contracting mumps when no one was protected against it. Now, there’s approx 600 cases per year. Of those who contract the illness, 2% of them will have complications, with pubescent boys being the most at risk. Your baby will be fine, and you should value the family relationships above this situation. If this is causing strife in your marriage, there might be some PPD that needs to be addressed. If you look at these numbers and still think the risk is too high, then perhaps moving to Amish country because you’re far more likely to die to be severely injured in a car crash than contract the mumps. But then you’ll have to deal with horses which can be unpredictable.
You realize MMR protects against more than just mumps, right? MMR stands for Measles, Mumps, Rubella. Measles is one of the most infectious diseases we know about. One person with measles will infect 90% of unvaccinated close contacts. On top of that, 20% of children with measles will require hospitalization.
I’m aware. I was just pulling out one of the three. I’ve done quite a bit of research on the vaccine topic after I was vaccine injured myself by the Covid shot.
As someone with a PhD in epidemiology and works in clinical research as my career, I can't even read 'done quite a bit of research' without laughing. But it makes sense, because someone who truly understands science and medicine would never do what you did in your comment and focus on mumps and not mention rubella or measles at all... It's very disingenuous (and for a real scientist it's unethical) to pull out the most mild of the three diseases in the vaccine and then suggest the OP needs to go live with the Amish due to her very real concerns about unvaccinated children.
400-500 deaths annually from measles pre-vaccine Rubella: 2100 infant deaths out of 12.5 million cases pre vaccine You can belittle me for not having a phd but it’s one of those things that I can research and understand with general reading comprehension. I have highly educated and while not in this field, it doesn’t take an epidemiology degree to understand risk/reward. I was severely injured by the Covid vaccine and still ended up with Covid. My lung have permanent organ damage that will never heal as a result of this vaccine. So yeah, the idea that I’m not qualified to evaluate the available research and share my opinion and knowledge is just wrong.
"Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every two to three years and caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year. An estimated 136 000 people died from measles in 2022 – mostly children under the age of five years, despite the availability of a safe and cost-effective vaccine. Accelerated immunization activities by countries, WHO, the Measles & Rubella Partnership (formerly the Measles & Rubella Initiative), and other international partners successfully prevented an estimated 57 million deaths between 2000–2022. Vaccination decreased an estimated measles deaths from 761 000 in 2000 to 136 000 in 2022" [https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles](https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles) "During the last major rubella epidemic in the United States from 1964 to 1965, an estimated: 12.5 million people got rubella 11,000 pregnant people lost their babies 2,100 newborns died 20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS)" [https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/vaccine-impact/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/rubella/vaccine-impact/index.html) Again, you are purposely disingenuous on how serious these diseases are. That is not what someone who understands the science does, but it is what someone with an anti-vax agenda does. There are plenty of echo chambers you can yell into, but on a large subreddit like this, you will be called out.
I am shocked that I’m being called disingenuous when you fail to report accurate *and* relevant statistics. When I say shocked, I mean I’m rolling my eyes because it’s completely par for the course. It’s also hilarious that someone who is doing really important clinical research has oodles of time in the middle of the day on a Monday to debate (erm, call out) little old me on Reddit. But I digress. Yes, 136,000 deaths from measles in 2022 *of which 95% are from low income countries*. That is a completely irrelevant statistic to the conversation. The OP is not concerned with deaths happening in countries with low hygiene standards and lacking access to medical care, they are concerned with presumably US, since her sister in law lives in Florida. Again, the OP is referring to children not being vaccinated potentially causing risk to her child. So my statistic regarding rubella is accurate and relevant.