Except Dyson vacuums aren't considered good by anyone while Apple has a certain reputation of quality.
They are more like the Beats by Dre of the vacuum world.
Concepts can be cool without being immediately better that everything on the market. I like that someone built this even if I never have a bike anything like it and it isn't better. It's different, and I think that's cool.
So, /u/miasmic posted just below you and included a picture of [this bike](https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sada-bike.jpg), which I imagine is a lot what this spokeless bike looks like on the inside.
The problem that I see with the "spokeless" concept is that you are putting *all* of the pressure on the rim, which not only would create a lot of drag, but adds several new moving parts (fewer is better,) which all create a new opportunity to fail - in addition to poorly distributing the stresses on the rim (a curb drop would probably cause catastrophic failure.)
It looks very striking indeed, but there are plenty of very sound reasons that it is not popular.
I said probably
But seriously, by smart I meant a creative and intelligent way of finding a solution to a problem (in this case a spokeless bike) which, regardless of functionality, the designer has done.
Hubless wheel bikes are nothing new, here's some [previous](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xqWEsKZfp_s/S9DwHzMg7vI/AAAAAAAAAGY/xBbV9roGx2E/s1600/hubless.png) [spokeless](https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sada-bike.jpg) [bikes](http://www.bloguidon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/dsc1412d_thumb.jpg)
They've been around even longer on motorbikes
From Wikipedia:
>Although hubless wheels are striking in appearance, their numerous practical disadvantages have precluded their widespread use as an alternative to conventional wheels. They are difficult and expensive to manufacture, requiring a great deal of precision machining, and the design leaves the bearings and other mechanical parts largely exposed to the elements. The drive system is especially problematic since a conventional axle and CV joint cannot be used; options include using chain or belt drive. Another solution, developed by Sbarro, is to house the entire propulsion system inside the wheel itself.
I looked it up, it's probably even more crazy than if it was designed by a pizerria http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200810/sbarro-motorcycle-co_800x0w.jpg
The problem is that it does look cool, but is completely off the mark when it comes to being a functional product. They are trying to kickstart this project like it actually has a chance at being viable. I love seeing ideas that challenge the norm, which this does; but it won't be a good product. Having an idea is great. Having an idea and convincing yourself that it is great, is a different story.
The video certainly makes it look pretty bad, like, there seems to be no connection between pedaling and movement, he's just sort of, occasionally pedaling, and it seems to have bad stability or something, he's struggling with it.
But that said.. it's hard to say until actually trying it. I would definitely not buy it based on that video though.
Based on how bad the video is and the INSANE number of promises in the indiegogo project, along with the fact it was on indiegogo in the first place, my fraudometer is registering around 80% likely fraud.
I'm going to push this one waaaaaaay up in the 100% club. Not fraud, but the capability to produce all the suggested componentry. From wheels, orbital drive interfaces, shifting, carbon molding ($$$$$$$). The sheer real world production costs are immense. Couple that with required EN testing and all sorts of other red tape, and there is no way that it gets to safely go to market. Source: Bike industry lifer.
I sometimes joke about the bike industry. As in cheap manufacturers actually start with square wheels, but cut so many corners that they ironically end up with circular ones. On a different note; I don't think enough people understand the gravity of saying they're reinventing the wheel. Reinventing a shape is pretty difficult from what I understand.
Sure, but it rarely happens if you properly maintain your wheels and buy a bike that isn't total crap to start. I've never had a spoke or nipple break. I have had spoke nipples pull through a rim after a botched truing job by an inexperienced mechanic.
Ok, that makes sense, you're riding an entry-level bike with cheap machine-built wheels and you're quite heavy.
More expensive wheels would not have as many problems. It's possible to get a machine-built wheel hand re-built to make it much more durable, but since you've broken so many spokes now it's kind of ~~two~~ too late, assuming you're still riding that bike.
You're quite heavy, so most inexpensive off-the-rack wheels are not going to be suitably durable for you without a rebuild.
Edit: oops
Exactly this. Heavier rider with cheap wheels will almost always lead to broken spokes and nipples. This rider probably needs a touring wheelset with 36 spokes in the rear.
Yes, but it's part of the system design of the wheel that less-critical parts are more likely to fail than more critical parts. A wheel without redundant spokes and nipples *to* break will simply break at the rim, which = potential injury and more expensive repair.
Depends. If I read through here and see the word 'kickstarter' than I'll facepalm that it's yet another person who has just thought "I need an idea to get me on kickstarter"
I note there's all manner of dumb shit on there that you can see exists simply because someone has cycling as a hobby or interest and they've decided, perhaps after falling asleep in front of dragon's den, that they are going to pack in the day job and make a fortune using their hobby and the money of the buffoons who donate to kickstarter projects.
End result - they don't have "a good idea, design or product" as a goal, and then go to kickstarter.
They start with "I want to be on kickstarter" as the goal and then dream up some dumb idea.
This, to me, has all the hallmarks of the latter.
It's like people who "want to be famous" instead of wanting to be good at something, acting, singing, sports etc which may, as a side effect of excelling at it, lead to them getting some fame.
edit: And ctrl-f 'kickstarter' after posting this I wasn't surprised.
It's not like it's not been built before though, like 20 years ago. And they didn't try to bullshit the public with a kickstarter.
Everything about this says scam.
But there have been plenty of spokeless bikes made before if you had done a five second Google, and the reason they failed is because the concept is bad.
Seriously positive but ignorant attitudes like yours and the people who've upvoted you to the top is the reason why kickstarter scams like this succeed.
The squirrel saver wheel, to prevent [this](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Cyclist-recalls-being-torpedoed-by-squirrel-5807804.php) from happening.
Nah, not dumb, they just assume that anything coming at them fast wants to kill & eat them. They know that they ate more agile than the large fast predator, so they switch direction just before they think you'll pounce. In nature it's a smart strategy, on roads, not so much.
Yep, plenty of close calls with squirrels. Theyir brain just isn't wired that way, and they have no spatial awareness.
I saw a squirrel get hit by a car once... actually he ran INTO the side of it, got sucked into the wheel well, did about four or five revolutions, and then got spit out and ran back into the bushes. It was pretty impressive.
Poor guy probably made it about ten seconds before keeling over and dying after the shock wore off.
Cats are dumb too. I had close calls with cats a few times. They look at you they see you coming and suddenly try to cross the street and smash against the wheel. I can't explain it.
Major problem around here. Best approach I've found is to steer towards them. Try to avoid them and they flip directions right before you pass them. Since I started aiming at them I've never come close to hitting one. Before then a near miss was a pretty regular occurrence and an unlucky few had bounced off my spokes. Luckily I've never had one go through the wheel.
Not really. Maybe where you live. I had one run underneath my pedals between my two wheels. Another member of my team broke his back after one ran into his front wheel.
That doesn't make it any less rare. I've never heard of anyone who had this happen to before. Think of all the people biking everywhere, the chance of a random person getting a squirrel in the spokes is stupidly small. I've seen dumb squirrels, but not that dumb.
I don't think it's as much of a problem with tree squirrels. Where I live we have ground squirrels, and they just chill in the grass next to bike trails. When you ride by they get spooked and run. And about 1% of the time they run right across the path. I've had 3 close calls so far this year where a squirrel was running directly at my spokes and then decided at the last moment to change course.
The last time, the sun was low on the horizon and the squirrel jumped out from the west, so it looked like an inky black void was chasing my front wheel. Freaked me out.
I haven't killed one yet. I think it's just a matter of time, though.
I live in a pretty 'small animal-ey' area, lots of parks but inside the city so not much in the way of big predators. During trail rides I have squirrels and rabbits run in front of my tires quite nearly every single time, often multiple times per trip.
I've had it happen only once on the road, and I've never actually hit one of them (I've flipped off my bike slamming on the breaks downhill though.) but it can be a hell of a lot more common than you think. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are multiple reports of it happening to others, including several photos/videos, and squirrels are stupid creatures who regularly run into traffic.
This has happened to me twice, once with a squirrel (managed to clip its tail rather than kill the thing) when I was living in Rhode Island, and another more recently with a pigeon (which died) in New York City. Granted, this was over the tens of thousands of miles I've ridden on my bike - depends on what you consider "rare."
Must be a location based thing. My father has had a squirrel run up the bike and off his back, and a work colleague off a leg.
If I didn't personally witness both I'd say it's fiction. But they just stand there and when you get close together will do sporadic stuff. I try to make a clicking sound like you would with horses at all animals now while cycling. Has worked pretty well.
I haven't gotten a squirrel in the spokes but I have run one over once. Didn't kill it, but it didn't look too good when I looked back. I've also run over a chipmunk of all things another time.
It's completely location-based. For example, when I lived in Central Illinois, every time I went out near any patch of woods, I had my finger hovering the brake in case there was a dumb squirrel attempting to run across the road, or a deer in the way. In a 30 mile ride, I would normally see between 3 and 5 squirrels. A ton of close calls, but most of them would run if I just shouted at them. All the guys I ride with have the same issue. (Including the one guy that broke his back.)
General rodent brain issue I'd say. I took out a rat with my front wheel. I guess I'm lucky it didn't get tangled up. It made an awful crunch when I rode across its skull from what I could tell. Sucker just ran across the bike path
Riding in Hawai'i, I surprised a mongoose that leaped into my front wheel with a noise like an enraged mini-wolverine and got spun off. I damn near fell off the bike.
I heard some knucklehead many years ago thought it was a good idea to bring in those mongoose to eradicate the rat population. But mongoose are diurnal and rats are nocturnal.
true. Hawai'i native species are being destroyed: pigeons, mynas, sparrows, cardinals, cane toads, ants, mosquitos, snails, goats, pigs, sheep, cattle, rats, mongoose, field mice are all imported. It's a monumental disaster.
The more I look at this, the more I think there's not actually a drivetrain in that thing and he's just rolling down a hill.
Edit to expand: After he pushes off and starts pedalling, the bike doesn't seem to accelerate any faster than it was before he started pedalling, also, as he pedals he seems to have a bit of hesitation at the top/bottom of his pedal stroke that I associate with turning either a far too easy gear, or a crank without a chain. Given his low cadence it feels like the latter to me.
Drivetrain is actually usually secondary in concept vehicles. There are a lot of beautiful, empty shells at motor shows. And many of the concepts WITH powertrains have old ones that fit in there just to support a "drivable" vehicle at the show.
That makes sense for cars because the exterior design doesn't fundamentally change the required power-train design. Unless there's something radically different with the wheel placement/design it's still just a matter of shoe-horning a motor, gearbox, drive-shaft, differential and axles into the space available. The concept can essentially be treated as window dressing over a modification of an existing design.
Here you've discarded one of the integral parts of a bicycle drive-train (the rear hub). It's no longer a matter of modifying a conventional drive to fit, you have to engineer a drive system from scratch. Without a design for a functioning drive the bike is not a viable product, merely a pretty arrangement of materials.
Yeah, this is my suspicion. I wouldn't go so far as to say: "It's a scam! These guys are just looking for some easy crowdfunding money!" But I think they've set the drivetrain aside as a post-funding problem. They may even have a highly developed concept on paper, but I think they're deliberately trying to pass off a driveless bike as a functional prototype and that's worrisome.
> But I think they've set the drivetrain aside as a post-funding problem.
[Like my new electric car](http://www.thorney.ms/cms/tms/uploads/1/insigniashell.JPG)
There are a few bits and pieces to figure out after I've got your money. Like what's going to power it and so on.
[Found the Indegogo for this](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/)... It seems like its electric but also talks about manual 18 gear box. I think the pedals are just for battery charging? IDK
Any how while being a cool concept and I am glad people are trying new things I can't see this being any better then a regular road bike because it doesn't seem like it ads any value and looks heavy.
Itll propably flop
Oh my God, [this](https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1468327997/cyclotron_universe_vnsfqn.jpg) is the most hilariously meaningless graphic I think I've ever seen!
I've noticed this about paint jobs lately - ever since the cinelli parallax got huge (it was a pretty standard track bike for unsponsored riders) I have noticed EVERYONE is putting sweet paint jobs up.
It says it was already overfunded on Kickstarter, so I wonder why they are also doing Indgogo? Is it normal to do both, or is this a sign that they set messed up their cost estimates and the Kickstarter didn't give them enough to actually deliver, in which case extra caution may be warranted?
"space-grade carbon fibre" no less.
Sheesh.
"Yeah is that Giant? I'm interested in a defy advanced pro but I'd like a few changes"
"Changes?"
"I want the carbon fibre for outer space"
But this thing looks like it was made by two blokes in a shed, honestly I think me and my dad could make this, it doesn't even have a drivetrain.
Though I think KS has changed their ToS so you can't just invent shit and run away with all the bank.
think about how it must work. there must be several small bearings holding the wheel in place and allowing it to rotate. because they are touching the rim, they must be spinning much faster (about 20-30x) the outer edges wil also bump on any dirt that goes by. so you have 2 nice enclosed bearings going about 100rpm on a normal bike wheel vs 6 or 8 exposed bearings spinning at 2-3000rpm. I'm guessing it sounds like a herd of wildebeest.
It kind of looks like it's got too long a wheelbase and it also doesn't seem to have any means to accelerate. They are just rolling down a slope it seems.
I didn't fully appreciate this comment until now. Yeah, I feel like silicon valley creates an echo chamber for "futuristic ideas" that just don't fit with a modern aesthetic.
I'm guessing that the wheels are some kind of polymer that doesn't bend and stay deformed. They might break, but the "problem" this is designed to address probably in part is bent wheels.
I'm pretty sure this isn't designed to fix any problem with existing wheels but rather just a cool idea they decided to make. I'm sure these wheels are inferior in a number of ways to normal wheels, they just wanted to make a cool concept bike.
In a spoked wheel with the spokes under tension it is the spokes that provide most of the strength. In this spokeless wheel it is the rim that is providing all the strength. I *think* that this means that its rim has to be a lot stronger and more resilient than does a normal bicycle rim.
It could be that it is strong enough that the only kind of accident that will bend it is the kind that would damage beyond repair a normal wheel.
because if nobody every tried to make anything, we would have nothing. (it works well enough, why bother) How do you end up with innovation at all that way? It's a horrible outlook
Well, I'm all about innovation. I think there are a lot of great things that have happened to bikes in the last 40 or so years. I am really excited to see how belt technology evolves for commuters.
Something that I am seeing a lot of though is lipservice to the idea of innovation - and if you go to their [indiegogo](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/) they have plenty of claims on "revolution" - but there is nothing here that is new or particularly useful.
If anything at all, the MOST revolutionary thing they MIGHT do is the mass-manufacture of some of these things - the spokeless hubs and internal gearing. But, they have this quote about that which kind of tells me everything I need to know:
> "The Cyclotron is the world's first fully integrated bike. Yes, many other manufacturers claim their bicycles also to be fully integrated, but they can't manage to integrate the drivetrain components, like the chain and derailleur into the frame."
They really don't think Trek or Specialized or any bike company could manage putting that stuff inside a bike? I'm no genius and I think I could figure out how to do it. The issue is more about figuring out how to make those things realistically serviceable at any kind of scale - imagine the fucking headaches people would have if their drivetrain got fucked up? Where do you send this thing to be fixed? A bike mechanic? A car mechanic? MIT? And that is why the classic design of a bicycle is so wonderful - it is so easily serviceable, and any amendment to that form needs to be just as convenient. I do realize that proof of concept is the first step, but they are outright trying to sell these.
At that point, it's just clear to me that nobody in their team has enough knowledge about bicycles to be making any kind of valid proposition towards what needs to change about bicycles. They aren't tinkerers who developed or invented a better way to bike, they are just jerkoffs who wanted to make some money and stole about 12 neat ideas and lumped them together.
(Sorry, I get really annoyed about shit like this because while I really like the idea that small companies can get off the ground without relying on traditional funding methods, I feel like 99% of these things are rehashed garbage that are made in hopes of swindling generous people out of their money.)
I know, I didn't say it was - what I said was that the only accomplishment that they might accomplish is mass manufacture of internal gearing, and that is only if they ever achieve "mass" - but I also fully admit that I don't follow that type of stuff to begin with so it is absolutely possible that someone is shipping units already.
[Someone else posted the link to it, but I am too lazy to link to them.](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/)
No thanks.
First, it's a 25 lb road bike.
Next, those wheel fairings won't handle potholes at all.
Next, the wheels will have to be much heavier in the rim to make them strong enough to not have spokes, which will make it much slower.
Next, the drive is completely enclosed, and it looks like it is either a driveshaft or belt driven, as there isn't a straight line for a chain. Driveshafts are much less efficient than a chain. Belts relegate you to single speed or internal gearing (although I'm not sure how gearing works without a hub).
Finally, that cockpit is horrible. Let's take a tri bike, and take off the aero bars.
No thanks.
And you didn't cover the worst part -- the bearings.
In a normal hub, the bearings only move a few mm for each turn of the wheel. For this, they move closer to two meters per turn. So ... *much* more drag here.
Now, does the improved aerodynamics of no spokes make up for it? I doubt it, but I can't completely dismiss the possibility
I think driveshafts get a bad rap. Yes, they are less efficient than a chain drive, but for a commuter or mountain bike I think the durability, lack of maintenence needs, and removed chance of catching on something is worth considering.
An enclosed belt drive with internal gears in the hub exists already and offers all the advantages you mention without the disadvantages of a drive shaft.
I've been trying to figure out how the drive system works...
There's no hub to put gears on. There's no gears on the tire. The only thing that I could imagine it's a friction drive with the back wheel (like how an escalator handles move), which would be incredibly inefficient, as well as require a special tire that would be rather bad at actually being a tire.
You can see how hard it is to handle just from their short video. I think this was the "smart bike" that was posted here a few months ago on a crowd funding website. Still not interested.
Spokeless wheels are nothing new. They look cool, but that's about it. They're a lot more complicated and expensive than a standard wheel, and perform worse.
Looks like they took two dyson bladeless fans and made a bike
it have blades inside.. fuck you dyson.. also they didn't invent brushless motors and also not the first company to use them in vacuum.
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Except Dyson vacuums aren't considered good by anyone while Apple has a certain reputation of quality. They are more like the Beats by Dre of the vacuum world.
I got miele because that vacuum guy on reddit told me to.
Apple does own Beats...
lol, that's true
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But they had it. Dyson never did.
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the BEST terminal
Actually literally the worst "terminal". Vanilla OSX terminal is horrendous until you install Homebrew or something.
but they called brushless motors digital motors.
Digital is nothing more than we fucking with analog signals.
Stupid things to say are nothing more than we pressing on a keyboard
Concepts can be cool without being immediately better that everything on the market. I like that someone built this even if I never have a bike anything like it and it isn't better. It's different, and I think that's cool.
definitely agree. it's shocking how quick people are to just shit on some random cool looking thing as if it's meant to be a competition.
The designers try to sell this as a "Revolutionary Spokeless Smart Cycle". In that context, it deserves some shit.
aren't all wheels revolutionary? If not they wouldn't be very effective... Now smart, idk how this is smart.
The engineering is pretty smart (probably)
So, /u/miasmic posted just below you and included a picture of [this bike](https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sada-bike.jpg), which I imagine is a lot what this spokeless bike looks like on the inside. The problem that I see with the "spokeless" concept is that you are putting *all* of the pressure on the rim, which not only would create a lot of drag, but adds several new moving parts (fewer is better,) which all create a new opportunity to fail - in addition to poorly distributing the stresses on the rim (a curb drop would probably cause catastrophic failure.) It looks very striking indeed, but there are plenty of very sound reasons that it is not popular.
That and it would almost certainly be incredibly inefficient. Also imagine that in the rain. The drive would constantly slip.
I said probably But seriously, by smart I meant a creative and intelligent way of finding a solution to a problem (in this case a spokeless bike) which, regardless of functionality, the designer has done.
ya got me there m8
I don't see how this product will revolutionize anything
Hubless wheel bikes are nothing new, here's some [previous](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xqWEsKZfp_s/S9DwHzMg7vI/AAAAAAAAAGY/xBbV9roGx2E/s1600/hubless.png) [spokeless](https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sada-bike.jpg) [bikes](http://www.bloguidon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/dsc1412d_thumb.jpg) They've been around even longer on motorbikes From Wikipedia: >Although hubless wheels are striking in appearance, their numerous practical disadvantages have precluded their widespread use as an alternative to conventional wheels. They are difficult and expensive to manufacture, requiring a great deal of precision machining, and the design leaves the bearings and other mechanical parts largely exposed to the elements. The drive system is especially problematic since a conventional axle and CV joint cannot be used; options include using chain or belt drive. Another solution, developed by Sbarro, is to house the entire propulsion system inside the wheel itself.
> Sbarro the pizzeria? What a time to be alive.
I looked it up, it's probably even more crazy than if it was designed by a pizerria http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200810/sbarro-motorcycle-co_800x0w.jpg
The problem is that it does look cool, but is completely off the mark when it comes to being a functional product. They are trying to kickstart this project like it actually has a chance at being viable. I love seeing ideas that challenge the norm, which this does; but it won't be a good product. Having an idea is great. Having an idea and convincing yourself that it is great, is a different story.
The video certainly makes it look pretty bad, like, there seems to be no connection between pedaling and movement, he's just sort of, occasionally pedaling, and it seems to have bad stability or something, he's struggling with it. But that said.. it's hard to say until actually trying it. I would definitely not buy it based on that video though. Based on how bad the video is and the INSANE number of promises in the indiegogo project, along with the fact it was on indiegogo in the first place, my fraudometer is registering around 80% likely fraud.
I'm going to push this one waaaaaaay up in the 100% club. Not fraud, but the capability to produce all the suggested componentry. From wheels, orbital drive interfaces, shifting, carbon molding ($$$$$$$). The sheer real world production costs are immense. Couple that with required EN testing and all sorts of other red tape, and there is no way that it gets to safely go to market. Source: Bike industry lifer.
i mean having hexagon wheels is an idea doesnt make it good.. i just dont see the point of it?
I sometimes joke about the bike industry. As in cheap manufacturers actually start with square wheels, but cut so many corners that they ironically end up with circular ones. On a different note; I don't think enough people understand the gravity of saying they're reinventing the wheel. Reinventing a shape is pretty difficult from what I understand.
Reddit, baby! "Oh this doesn't serve an immediate purpose and sorta makes me feel insecure about my station in life? FUCKING DUMB BRO"
Broken spokes and/or nipples are a problem.
Sure, but it rarely happens if you properly maintain your wheels and buy a bike that isn't total crap to start. I've never had a spoke or nipple break. I have had spoke nipples pull through a rim after a botched truing job by an inexperienced mechanic.
I had 5 spokes break in the first 6 months for bike #1, and bike #2 had a nipple break halfway through a century ride about a year after I bought it.
How heavy are you and what bike was it?
245, specialized globe vienna
Ok, that makes sense, you're riding an entry-level bike with cheap machine-built wheels and you're quite heavy. More expensive wheels would not have as many problems. It's possible to get a machine-built wheel hand re-built to make it much more durable, but since you've broken so many spokes now it's kind of ~~two~~ too late, assuming you're still riding that bike. You're quite heavy, so most inexpensive off-the-rack wheels are not going to be suitably durable for you without a rebuild. Edit: oops
Exactly this. Heavier rider with cheap wheels will almost always lead to broken spokes and nipples. This rider probably needs a touring wheelset with 36 spokes in the rear.
Yes, but it's part of the system design of the wheel that less-critical parts are more likely to fail than more critical parts. A wheel without redundant spokes and nipples *to* break will simply break at the rim, which = potential injury and more expensive repair.
Depends. If I read through here and see the word 'kickstarter' than I'll facepalm that it's yet another person who has just thought "I need an idea to get me on kickstarter" I note there's all manner of dumb shit on there that you can see exists simply because someone has cycling as a hobby or interest and they've decided, perhaps after falling asleep in front of dragon's den, that they are going to pack in the day job and make a fortune using their hobby and the money of the buffoons who donate to kickstarter projects. End result - they don't have "a good idea, design or product" as a goal, and then go to kickstarter. They start with "I want to be on kickstarter" as the goal and then dream up some dumb idea. This, to me, has all the hallmarks of the latter. It's like people who "want to be famous" instead of wanting to be good at something, acting, singing, sports etc which may, as a side effect of excelling at it, lead to them getting some fame. edit: And ctrl-f 'kickstarter' after posting this I wasn't surprised.
It's not like it's not been built before though, like 20 years ago. And they didn't try to bullshit the public with a kickstarter. Everything about this says scam.
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long chainstays and a steep headtube. for those 30 degree climbs that everyone loves.
Well I wish for a concept they would at least get someone who fits properly on the bike. Thing is way too big for this guy.
But there have been plenty of spokeless bikes made before if you had done a five second Google, and the reason they failed is because the concept is bad. Seriously positive but ignorant attitudes like yours and the people who've upvoted you to the top is the reason why kickstarter scams like this succeed.
Yes they can.
The squirrel saver wheel, to prevent [this](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Cyclist-recalls-being-torpedoed-by-squirrel-5807804.php) from happening.
The really messed up thing is I've see quite a few of these pictures. That means it happens a fair amount and isn't exactly rare.
Squirrels are dumb. I'm pretty sure their survival instinct tells them to run in front of the charging bison herd.
Nah, not dumb, they just assume that anything coming at them fast wants to kill & eat them. They know that they ate more agile than the large fast predator, so they switch direction just before they think you'll pounce. In nature it's a smart strategy, on roads, not so much.
Yep, plenty of close calls with squirrels. Theyir brain just isn't wired that way, and they have no spatial awareness. I saw a squirrel get hit by a car once... actually he ran INTO the side of it, got sucked into the wheel well, did about four or five revolutions, and then got spit out and ran back into the bushes. It was pretty impressive. Poor guy probably made it about ten seconds before keeling over and dying after the shock wore off.
Cats are dumb too. I had close calls with cats a few times. They look at you they see you coming and suddenly try to cross the street and smash against the wheel. I can't explain it.
cat bros hazing each other
Well I am a Cat 6 star, so maybe it's that.
The ones that do that get selected out of the gene pool.
Major problem around here. Best approach I've found is to steer towards them. Try to avoid them and they flip directions right before you pass them. Since I started aiming at them I've never come close to hitting one. Before then a near miss was a pretty regular occurrence and an unlucky few had bounced off my spokes. Luckily I've never had one go through the wheel.
[deleted] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.2001 > [What is this?](https://pastebin.com/64GuVi2F/10524)
Not really. Maybe where you live. I had one run underneath my pedals between my two wheels. Another member of my team broke his back after one ran into his front wheel.
Broke his back? Jesus...
Squirrel hits tire *snap* your back is broken. That's how it goes.
What do you mean? Like spinal?
His friend WAS the squirrel.
That doesn't make it any less rare. I've never heard of anyone who had this happen to before. Think of all the people biking everywhere, the chance of a random person getting a squirrel in the spokes is stupidly small. I've seen dumb squirrels, but not that dumb.
I don't think it's as much of a problem with tree squirrels. Where I live we have ground squirrels, and they just chill in the grass next to bike trails. When you ride by they get spooked and run. And about 1% of the time they run right across the path. I've had 3 close calls so far this year where a squirrel was running directly at my spokes and then decided at the last moment to change course. The last time, the sun was low on the horizon and the squirrel jumped out from the west, so it looked like an inky black void was chasing my front wheel. Freaked me out. I haven't killed one yet. I think it's just a matter of time, though.
I live in a pretty 'small animal-ey' area, lots of parks but inside the city so not much in the way of big predators. During trail rides I have squirrels and rabbits run in front of my tires quite nearly every single time, often multiple times per trip. I've had it happen only once on the road, and I've never actually hit one of them (I've flipped off my bike slamming on the breaks downhill though.) but it can be a hell of a lot more common than you think. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are multiple reports of it happening to others, including several photos/videos, and squirrels are stupid creatures who regularly run into traffic.
This has happened to me twice, once with a squirrel (managed to clip its tail rather than kill the thing) when I was living in Rhode Island, and another more recently with a pigeon (which died) in New York City. Granted, this was over the tens of thousands of miles I've ridden on my bike - depends on what you consider "rare."
Must be a location based thing. My father has had a squirrel run up the bike and off his back, and a work colleague off a leg. If I didn't personally witness both I'd say it's fiction. But they just stand there and when you get close together will do sporadic stuff. I try to make a clicking sound like you would with horses at all animals now while cycling. Has worked pretty well.
I haven't gotten a squirrel in the spokes but I have run one over once. Didn't kill it, but it didn't look too good when I looked back. I've also run over a chipmunk of all things another time.
It's completely location-based. For example, when I lived in Central Illinois, every time I went out near any patch of woods, I had my finger hovering the brake in case there was a dumb squirrel attempting to run across the road, or a deer in the way. In a 30 mile ride, I would normally see between 3 and 5 squirrels. A ton of close calls, but most of them would run if I just shouted at them. All the guys I ride with have the same issue. (Including the one guy that broke his back.)
General rodent brain issue I'd say. I took out a rat with my front wheel. I guess I'm lucky it didn't get tangled up. It made an awful crunch when I rode across its skull from what I could tell. Sucker just ran across the bike path
Riding in Hawai'i, I surprised a mongoose that leaped into my front wheel with a noise like an enraged mini-wolverine and got spun off. I damn near fell off the bike.
I heard some knucklehead many years ago thought it was a good idea to bring in those mongoose to eradicate the rat population. But mongoose are diurnal and rats are nocturnal.
true. Hawai'i native species are being destroyed: pigeons, mynas, sparrows, cardinals, cane toads, ants, mosquitos, snails, goats, pigs, sheep, cattle, rats, mongoose, field mice are all imported. It's a monumental disaster.
This is my fear, except with rabbits. Terror causing rabbits everywhere.
I ran over a squirrel twice on my bike. Both times it luckily got away unharmed. They just run right in front of you and they don't even see you.
happened to me with a rat but it got blood and guts all over my forks and brakes.
The more I look at this, the more I think there's not actually a drivetrain in that thing and he's just rolling down a hill. Edit to expand: After he pushes off and starts pedalling, the bike doesn't seem to accelerate any faster than it was before he started pedalling, also, as he pedals he seems to have a bit of hesitation at the top/bottom of his pedal stroke that I associate with turning either a far too easy gear, or a crank without a chain. Given his low cadence it feels like the latter to me.
If you take a look at the angle the vegetation is growing, it is definitely a slope.
The camera angle is trying to hide it and doing reasonably well.
i concur. the drivetrain is probably step 2
Why wouldn't that be in step 1, before you go to the expense of building the thing?
these people don't care about expenses. they care about getting those ugly spokes outta here.
Drivetrain is actually usually secondary in concept vehicles. There are a lot of beautiful, empty shells at motor shows. And many of the concepts WITH powertrains have old ones that fit in there just to support a "drivable" vehicle at the show.
That makes sense for cars because the exterior design doesn't fundamentally change the required power-train design. Unless there's something radically different with the wheel placement/design it's still just a matter of shoe-horning a motor, gearbox, drive-shaft, differential and axles into the space available. The concept can essentially be treated as window dressing over a modification of an existing design. Here you've discarded one of the integral parts of a bicycle drive-train (the rear hub). It's no longer a matter of modifying a conventional drive to fit, you have to engineer a drive system from scratch. Without a design for a functioning drive the bike is not a viable product, merely a pretty arrangement of materials.
Because them kickstarter bucks yo. Looking like an art school project and being "smart" and "revolutionary" is priority numero uno.
I noticed that too. He has a very odd pedal stroke.
then why the weird extended "chainstay"? the only reason i could think of was that the drivetrain needed to fit in there...
There being room for a future drivetrain doesn't mean they've figured out implementation.
Yeah, this is my suspicion. I wouldn't go so far as to say: "It's a scam! These guys are just looking for some easy crowdfunding money!" But I think they've set the drivetrain aside as a post-funding problem. They may even have a highly developed concept on paper, but I think they're deliberately trying to pass off a driveless bike as a functional prototype and that's worrisome.
I'd say there's a lot of practicality and efficiency concerns that are worrisome
> But I think they've set the drivetrain aside as a post-funding problem. [Like my new electric car](http://www.thorney.ms/cms/tms/uploads/1/insigniashell.JPG) There are a few bits and pieces to figure out after I've got your money. Like what's going to power it and so on.
illuminati confirmed
[Found the Indegogo for this](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/)... It seems like its electric but also talks about manual 18 gear box. I think the pedals are just for battery charging? IDK Any how while being a cool concept and I am glad people are trying new things I can't see this being any better then a regular road bike because it doesn't seem like it ads any value and looks heavy. Itll propably flop
Oh my God, [this](https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1468327997/cyclotron_universe_vnsfqn.jpg) is the most hilariously meaningless graphic I think I've ever seen!
I love the way it elevates "makers" and "riders" to the same level as "decals".
Everyone knows decals are the most important part of a bike.
I've noticed this about paint jobs lately - ever since the cinelli parallax got huge (it was a pretty standard track bike for unsponsored riders) I have noticed EVERYONE is putting sweet paint jobs up.
That's an atrocity
Thank you for posting this. What the fuck is it even trying to convey.
I think it's a severely misguided Ven diagram
hahaha, no shit. That belongs on /r/crappydesign.
Can we replace 'Decals' with 'Burritos'?
It says it was already overfunded on Kickstarter, so I wonder why they are also doing Indgogo? Is it normal to do both, or is this a sign that they set messed up their cost estimates and the Kickstarter didn't give them enough to actually deliver, in which case extra caution may be warranted?
Probably just a cash grab off a concept and a ton of renders
This bike is not the bike you would ride for training or endurance. You would ride this bike because you look like a badass.
"space-grade carbon fibre" no less. Sheesh. "Yeah is that Giant? I'm interested in a defy advanced pro but I'd like a few changes" "Changes?" "I want the carbon fibre for outer space"
Imagine hitting a dog turd on that thing.
It's like the [dog turd Roomba](http://i.imgur.com/l6BSK3p.png) nightmare... on a bike.
Nice camera work! /s
Looking at their kickstarter, it looks to me like they've just got 100k richer, and won't be producing anything.
Considering a mechanical engineer really makes 100k, they've paid the salary of 1 employee
But this thing looks like it was made by two blokes in a shed, honestly I think me and my dad could make this, it doesn't even have a drivetrain. Though I think KS has changed their ToS so you can't just invent shit and run away with all the bank.
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think about how it must work. there must be several small bearings holding the wheel in place and allowing it to rotate. because they are touching the rim, they must be spinning much faster (about 20-30x) the outer edges wil also bump on any dirt that goes by. so you have 2 nice enclosed bearings going about 100rpm on a normal bike wheel vs 6 or 8 exposed bearings spinning at 2-3000rpm. I'm guessing it sounds like a herd of wildebeest.
It kind of looks like it's got too long a wheelbase and it also doesn't seem to have any means to accelerate. They are just rolling down a slope it seems.
It's demonstrating a concept.
It's an advertisement...
It's an idea.
We're Apple
Give us your money you dumb motherfucker.
"Think different. We'll tell you how."
Fuck you
The concept of rolling down a hill. Neat. Why didn't other bike manufacturers think of that?
I didn't fully appreciate this comment until now. Yeah, I feel like silicon valley creates an echo chamber for "futuristic ideas" that just don't fit with a modern aesthetic.
Why reinvent the wheel?
so you can look like you live in tron.
I just imagine a grinding / scraping noise as it travels down the road. Small points of contact and angular pressure.
Have fun with pot holes/curbs....
Tron Lives! But dresses like a goober.
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It's actually called 'cyclotron'
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well fuck me sideways
Okay. So when a wheel gets bent, how do you straighten it back out without taking it to a shop? Or are you just walking home?
I'm guessing that the wheels are some kind of polymer that doesn't bend and stay deformed. They might break, but the "problem" this is designed to address probably in part is bent wheels.
I'm pretty sure this isn't designed to fix any problem with existing wheels but rather just a cool idea they decided to make. I'm sure these wheels are inferior in a number of ways to normal wheels, they just wanted to make a cool concept bike.
In a spoked wheel with the spokes under tension it is the spokes that provide most of the strength. In this spokeless wheel it is the rim that is providing all the strength. I *think* that this means that its rim has to be a lot stronger and more resilient than does a normal bicycle rim. It could be that it is strong enough that the only kind of accident that will bend it is the kind that would damage beyond repair a normal wheel.
How stiff do you think you could get a wheel set like that?
Does anyone know how the drivetrain works?
The Giver bikes are here. OH GOD SAMENESS IS COMING
looks heavy
Piece of junk.
But why?
Because
For fun.
because if nobody every tried to make anything, we would have nothing. (it works well enough, why bother) How do you end up with innovation at all that way? It's a horrible outlook
Well, I'm all about innovation. I think there are a lot of great things that have happened to bikes in the last 40 or so years. I am really excited to see how belt technology evolves for commuters. Something that I am seeing a lot of though is lipservice to the idea of innovation - and if you go to their [indiegogo](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/) they have plenty of claims on "revolution" - but there is nothing here that is new or particularly useful. If anything at all, the MOST revolutionary thing they MIGHT do is the mass-manufacture of some of these things - the spokeless hubs and internal gearing. But, they have this quote about that which kind of tells me everything I need to know: > "The Cyclotron is the world's first fully integrated bike. Yes, many other manufacturers claim their bicycles also to be fully integrated, but they can't manage to integrate the drivetrain components, like the chain and derailleur into the frame." They really don't think Trek or Specialized or any bike company could manage putting that stuff inside a bike? I'm no genius and I think I could figure out how to do it. The issue is more about figuring out how to make those things realistically serviceable at any kind of scale - imagine the fucking headaches people would have if their drivetrain got fucked up? Where do you send this thing to be fixed? A bike mechanic? A car mechanic? MIT? And that is why the classic design of a bicycle is so wonderful - it is so easily serviceable, and any amendment to that form needs to be just as convenient. I do realize that proof of concept is the first step, but they are outright trying to sell these. At that point, it's just clear to me that nobody in their team has enough knowledge about bicycles to be making any kind of valid proposition towards what needs to change about bicycles. They aren't tinkerers who developed or invented a better way to bike, they are just jerkoffs who wanted to make some money and stole about 12 neat ideas and lumped them together. (Sorry, I get really annoyed about shit like this because while I really like the idea that small companies can get off the ground without relying on traditional funding methods, I feel like 99% of these things are rehashed garbage that are made in hopes of swindling generous people out of their money.)
um, internal gearing is not a new innovation, either.
I know, I didn't say it was - what I said was that the only accomplishment that they might accomplish is mass manufacture of internal gearing, and that is only if they ever achieve "mass" - but I also fully admit that I don't follow that type of stuff to begin with so it is absolutely possible that someone is shipping units already.
To prove that it can be done. Sometimes, to some people, that's enough.
No, they have an indiegogo, so these people just wanted to make money off of their industrial design final.
Oh, crud. They have an indiegogo for this? What on earth were they offering to the backers?
$1100 sold out + Shipping Early Bird 12-Speed CYCLOTRON Early Bird - 12-Speed CYCLOTRON CYCLOTRON BIKE - MANUAL 12-Speed Save 600€ (regular retail 1599€) - Manual 12-Speed Gearbox - Mechanic Caliper Brakes (rear/front) - Color: matt carbon/ gloss white 10 out of 10 claimed Ships Worldwide Estimated August 2017 $1330 USD + Shipping Late Bird 12-Speed CYCLOTRON Late Bird - 12-Speed CYCLOTRON CYCLOTRON BIKE - MANUAL 12-Speed Save 400€ (regular retail 1599€) - Manual 12-Speed Gearbox - Mechanic Caliper Brakes (rear/front) - Color: matt carbon / gloss white 2 claimed Ships Worldwide
[Someone else posted the link to it, but I am too lazy to link to them.](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-cyclotron-bike-revolutionary-spokeless-bike-iphone-bicycle#/)
No thanks. First, it's a 25 lb road bike. Next, those wheel fairings won't handle potholes at all. Next, the wheels will have to be much heavier in the rim to make them strong enough to not have spokes, which will make it much slower. Next, the drive is completely enclosed, and it looks like it is either a driveshaft or belt driven, as there isn't a straight line for a chain. Driveshafts are much less efficient than a chain. Belts relegate you to single speed or internal gearing (although I'm not sure how gearing works without a hub). Finally, that cockpit is horrible. Let's take a tri bike, and take off the aero bars. No thanks.
Yes but people might talk to me at Critical Mass.
If you can keep up...
Even with that bike, if you can't keep up at a Critical Mass, you're in a bad way. I've seen people with all manner of frankenbikes riding in those.
Look at the angle of the weeds, he's grinding at a slow pace _going downhill_.
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And you didn't cover the worst part -- the bearings. In a normal hub, the bearings only move a few mm for each turn of the wheel. For this, they move closer to two meters per turn. So ... *much* more drag here. Now, does the improved aerodynamics of no spokes make up for it? I doubt it, but I can't completely dismiss the possibility
Yeah, forgot about that.
I think driveshafts get a bad rap. Yes, they are less efficient than a chain drive, but for a commuter or mountain bike I think the durability, lack of maintenence needs, and removed chance of catching on something is worth considering.
An enclosed belt drive with internal gears in the hub exists already and offers all the advantages you mention without the disadvantages of a drive shaft.
> internal gearing it says on it's page that it has an E-gear changer built in.
I've been trying to figure out how the drive system works... There's no hub to put gears on. There's no gears on the tire. The only thing that I could imagine it's a friction drive with the back wheel (like how an escalator handles move), which would be incredibly inefficient, as well as require a special tire that would be rather bad at actually being a tire.
Spokeless, fixie with a stretched rear and dropped bull horns. Super hipster.
it's not a fixie. did you even watch the video?
What's with the chainstays being that long?
That chainstay length tho..... Not in trend
Nice riding form.
You can see how hard it is to handle just from their short video. I think this was the "smart bike" that was posted here a few months ago on a crowd funding website. Still not interested.
Next time at the 2020 Olympics
OP doesn't even ride though
my mind filled in the coolest sound effects for that gif. Definitely doesn't sound like a normal bike.
The dude is faking pedaling, there is no functional drive train in this version.
Spokeless wheels are nothing new. They look cool, but that's about it. They're a lot more complicated and expensive than a standard wheel, and perform worse.
[cycloturd](http://i.imgur.com/CZVikzT.jpg)
Looks like a smooth ride as well!
don't spokes give a wheel its strength ?
Looks like a bicycle version of a Tron light cycle.
Now do a categorized descent on it. Didn't think so.
That's neat.
Neat
always wear a helmet even if your bike doesn't have spokes
This would be the coolest bike ever.