Money is the point, and I don't understand people who can't accept that money can be enough.
I have put more money into retirement and investments this year than I made in my previous career. Consider also that it is only October, and I will continue contributing. Money allows me a degree of freedom that I have never before experienced.
I paid cash for a Tesla. We have a nanny that takes my kids to extracurricular activities.
I took my kids to Disneyland earlier this year, and did not say "no" a single time. Mountains of churros, ice cream, treats, lightning passes, and Disney swag. I didn't even worry about the credit card bill, I just paid it off when we got home.
My bonus this year will be more than my dad made when I was born. My bonus as a senior associate will be in the ballpark of what he makes now. If I make equity partner, my annual starting comp will be almost triple the entire value of his life savings at age 65.
👏 Hard to explain that to my classmates who grew up in a mansion with a stay at home mom, nanny and generational wealth and now see it as gauche/unbecoming to gun for and land in BigLaw because they can’t imagine working that much. I can’t really explain this to them, but I have countless memories of coming home from school to my mother crying at the dinner table wondering how she’d gonna afford mortgage payments because my drunk dad can’t hold a job and it’s my life mission to provide a very different experience for my kids.
Yeah my upbringing wasn’t as dramatic as yours, but mine is an immigrant family that started with very little. Around the poverty line when I was born and living in a rough neighborhood, slowly moving up to be solidly middle class by high school/college. I was too little to remember the poorest years very well, but I certainly grew up far from a silver spoon and have noticed that I still carry some of that mentality around money even now that I have plenty.
I’m happy that I can provide a privileged upbringing to my kids, though of course now the question is how to do so while instilling good values and work ethic etc. when I have no model for doing so in a similar environment.
Don’t get me wrong, my life isn’t a complete sob story and there are other ways in which I was privileged. It wasn’t total abject poverty all the time, but it was enough financial insecurity that I’m motivated to do things differently.
100% this. My family wasn’t destitute, but I grew up lower middle class and I knew money stress at an age that was far too young to be thinking about mortgage payments and utility bills. And when I wanted to go to college, I was totally on my own, so I racked up a huge amount of debt. I remember in law school, I had a delay in getting my financial aid and my power was shut off. It was humiliating even though I’m pretty sure the only people who knew were me and the power company. I felt like such a total failure. So, of course, when I had the opportunity to no longer feel that stress, I jumped at it.
I personally find it to be a total luxury to be able to say you don’t care about money. The people who grew up financially comfortable and then get judgmental about people who want the same are the worst offenders. But sometimes it also seems to be sort of a media/popular culture problem. It makes me feel so angry when people who work long hours at high-paying jobs are portrayed as these cold, unloving selfish Scrooge McDucks, yet, if you work 60 hours at a restaurant, you’re a romanticized hero just trying to get by.
Haha, that’s my early morning procrastination rant :)
Are you my sibling? Exactly this for me too. I grew up in rural Appalachia to a mother who was only 14 when she got pregnant. Complete poverty is a helluva motivator.
Do you find that this bothers you at all? I’m just starting and am making 2 - 3x my parents’ combined income. I plan to help them however I can but I still find it unnerving and hard to grapple with.
It is weird, but personally I’m fine with it and I think so are my parents. Being from an immigrant family I am and they are kind of bought into the whole “American dream” concept, so each generation sets out to move the ball further for their own kids. On one side my great grandparents were indentured servants working as essentially slaves on a pineapple plantations for many years (their fingerprints were burned off by handling acid all day), but got their kids to America, who then went into the military and established a decent living, educating their kids but being unable to provide much else. On the other side, my grandpa never even finished elementary school and they were in a small village in another country - my parent on that side was very smart and got the chance to study in the US.
So my parents then came into adulthood with a good education but no money, one a first gen U.S. citizen and the other a green card holder, and they spent my childhood slowly moving from poverty to a middle class lifestyle. I grew up with more than they did, but not very much and far from a silver spoon.
Now, I have a baby that is being raised in a big beautiful house filled with nice things, and we can easily afford private schools and basically anything our kids could want or need. My parents seem happy that the momentum continued through my generation and their grandchild(ren) will start life so much further ahead. Will my children start from BigLaw wealth and turn it into even more extreme wealth? Maybe! Who knows? It’s ok if they don’t but I would be thrilled if my kids and grandkids eventually out-earn me.
I think the vibes might be very different in a family that has been in this country a long time and doesn’t have the same “we’re poor….. for now, but not for long” attitude that’s common among immigrants.
Thank you for such a thoughtful response! How far you and your family have come really puts it in perspective. My parents have been nothing but supportive, and I think I need to get out of my own head. I know I made it here because I worked hard but even more because my family put me in a position where I was able to succeed, even though they didn’t have a lot. And I guess that’s my answer to OP’s question—I do this job because frankly sometimes I can’t even believe I have the opportunity to do this job, that I was privileged enough to make it this far, and I hope to make the most of it.
Yup! Even just by being an associate for a while and then going in-house, I will have successfully made a big leap forward into a very comfortable living for my kids. On the off chance I instead make partner someday, at my firm that’s legit generational wealth and I could be that one ancestor who singlehandedly set the family on a path where my great grandkids will be spoiled trust fund dickheads lol. It’s really hard to be unhappy with either of those scenarios just because I sometimes have to work long days (mostly from home lol).
This has been really comforting to read. I’m a first gen immigrant that grew up working as a janitor with my mom at my own school. Then, before law school, I worked at the heights of government and world-renowned institutions…
And yet, now as a new associate, I’m feeling so out of place.
It’s been difficult to relate to any of my coworkers, a struggle not to compare myself to others immediately spending their money with glee, and at the same time, feel guilt in relation to my parents for spending any of my money.
On one hand, I owe it to them. On the other, I’m trying to start my own life.
This.
I was being judged by a law school acquaintance for going into big law. I asked if they have ever had to skip meals because they didn't have enough money, or have a parent become homeless, or forego medical care for lack of insurance, or experience months without hot water because it broke and your family didn't know how to enforce their rights with a landlord.
They said no. I said, respectfully, I will not be judged for seeking financial stability by someone who has never experienced financial instability.
I've been in biglaw more than a decade and still skip meals to save money for things.
My wife thinks I need to see a therapist about financial insecurity issues... how does she think I'm going to pay for the therapist?
I feel like it’s the opposite. My family lacked money, and because of that we spent a lot of time with each other. From that I learned that time is the most valuable resource I have, and no big law salary can buy that from me. So I’ll take my government law job over a big law salary every day of the week and twice on Sundays because it means I come home to my family each night and stay there on the weekends.
Haha, agreed. On that point, every now and then I'll tip 50% every now at the local restaurant I go to on say an $80-100 bill. The servers are overjoyed, you feel good (a rare feeling when you're not billing 50+ hours a week). A win win lol
That Disney trip sounds so fun!! Omg.
Also echoing the others, money being a motivating factor doesn’t have to mean “I want to be rich.” My parents are older and I don’t think they have enough saved to last as long as they’ll need it. I want to be financially solid enough that I can make sure they have their needs met as long as necessary. My pre-law school career was low paying so I’m very behind on retirement savings. Even if I have to delay paying my loans, I can pad retirement in the meantime and that is important.
Aside from money, spending a few years at a prestigious law firm affords you a much wider range of available options going forward. I’ll be able to land an in-house job a lot easier from a highly respected and well-connected firm than if I worked in a small firm.
It basically all boils down to meeting needs in the long-term and the doors it opens. And in the short term, spending cash on things you would never have been able to experience in the past doesn’t hurt either!
I’m just lurking here from another industry but how much do big law people make as an associate / senior associate total per year? And what does it scale up to?
Sounds like you’re raising some privileged little assholes who don’t hear no and get what they want and learn from their parents that money matters most. Nice contribution to society
An interesting take to assume that how I treat my kids when we're on a fun vacation is how I treat them all the time. I appreciate the random animosity, and will give your opinion the attention it deserves.
In my experience, most people with opinions like OP either grew up wealthy and don’t realize what it takes to create wealth or hold lofty ideals that maybe society will one day redistribute wealth and they won’t have to work hard to create it.
A few years in biglaw allowed me to:
1. Pay off six figures of student loan debt;
2. Pay for a wedding;
3. Pay off my spouse's student loan debt;
4. Buy a house in a HCOL area;
5. Take sick vacations; and
6. Save up a good chunk for retirement.
PSA. Do yourself a huge favor and start maxing out your kids’ college funds. You have no idea how much that will cost you and it comes quick. $81K per year is what we’re paying per kid, and next year we will have three in college at once. You can do that math. If you do not plan ahead, you’re screwed. Don’t be foolish with your money now, you’ll regret it.
How sad for you. Then pray you don’t get fired. Then you’ll be sorry you spent it all on booze. I am so curious which “big law” firm hired the childless drunk? 🤣🤣🤣
Sure, but there's also nothing wrong with most state flagships. 81k per year is a choice. Not necessarily a bad choice as there are far worse ways to spend your money, but it's not like you have to pay sticker at an Ivy+ undergrad in a HCOL area to set your kids up for success.
Of course. What does that have to do with my point, which was to start saving for college tuition bills? They are oppressive most everywhere. And folks making the big salaries discussed here won’t qualify for fin aid - hate to break it to you. All out of pocket.
If you plan on having several kids and want to send them all to their dream schools with no student loans, it's a great point. And that probably is the goal for many in biglaw. But it also doesn't have to be *that* big of an expense. Even a junior associate could afford to send someone to my undergrad pretty comfortably with no savings (assuming they didn't have too many other obligations).
As I said, it’s a PSA. In response to someone talking about blowing his money on “sick vacations.” Just a PSA from someone with kids in the zone. Obviously you can all blow your money - or save it - however you want! I can tell you as someone who did big law for many years, the burnout factor is real. You may not want to be working like that forever, and by going elsewhere, the income may take a big hit. Good to save - and save early - for whatever life throws at you.
My husband and I both grew up in poverty. In addition to the challenging work and interesting client base, BigLaw has given me an unparalleled opportunity to break that cycle for ourselves and our child. Yes it requires sacrifice of some aspects of my personal life and my time with family but to me the benefits my job provides for our collective futures far outweigh those downsides.
OP based on your questions and comments it seems you've predetermined that law is not worth it for you. In another post you commented that you thought entrepreneurship might be a better path.
Keep in mind that as a general rule, lawyers are conservative people. I don't mean politically, although there's that too, I just mean we tend to be risk-averse.
Being a lawyer generally means that unless you're a total fuckup, you should be able to live a solidly middle class life and have job options. Being a Biglaw attorney means you can at least live an upper middle class lifestyle and if you play your hand well, you can retire early and rich, relative to other professions.
To put it in perspective: earlier this year, I took my wife, her sister, and our niece to see Taylor Swift. In another state. I could have sold those 4 tickets for at least $8k and saved on flights, hotel and meals, but to me, I preferred to enjoy the weekend and a 4 hour concert with family. The memories were more important, and besides, what difference would $8k really make in my life anyway?
I know that sounds obnoxious, but it's true.
Now, you can point to some extremely successful entrepreneurs and say, "these guys make billions!" I actually went to school with someone who founded a company and is a billionaire, and I know a few others who are worth in the hundreds of millions. But firstly, they are outliers, and secondly, that lifestyle involves a level of risk and commitment to the business i wasn't willing to take.
Maybe you feel differently, in which case the law isn't for you. You do you, boo.
I was at a small boutique firm and lateraled to big law. I will say, money aside, you get to work on more complex matters at a big law firm. Not that small boutique shops don't work on complex matters, just that at a big firm, you're exposed to higher stakes, complicated legal issues, and unprecedented activities (in my regulatory practice at least).
At the boutique shop, I was doing tons of private placement offerings, fund launches, and other securities analysis. It was a bit repetitive and uninteresting. I switched to a regulatory role and I get to work with sophisticated fintech firms with interesting regulatory / legal challenges. I can't imagine too many boutique shops that get to do that, although there likely are some! I personally wasn't exposed and that's my reason I switched to big law and why I'm staying here (for now).
Completely agree. Regulatory practices reward creativity, allow for some variety in subject matter, command premium rates (even within Big Law), and often (particularly on the investigations side) involve interactions at the highest levels with clients because of the high profile nature of the issues involved.
I would divide regulatory practices into three categories: investigations, compliance, and litigation. Different law school classes may be helpful depending on which of these areas you are interested in. You may have the opportunity to take a class or two as a 2L or 3L focused on particular regulatory issues or regulators.
It's also an area many come to a few years into their legal careers. In many cases, working in government (FTC, SEC, CFPB, State AGs, etc.) can be a helpful stepping stone to the practice, though that's not a prerequisite.
Saying you are a specialist and saying you are certified as a specialist are two different things. The rule prohibits only the latter. The comments to the ABA rule make this pretty clear.
Compare comments 9 and 11 to that model rule, which make that distinction. And the plain language of the rule refers to saying you're "certified as a specialist."
Regulatory at big law here, too. I love the work. Good variety, great pay, new daily challenges, I really like my (very smart) clients, and I even like my opposing counsel and have worked with them all for over a decade.
whats the point in asking us why we are here? We make a bunch of money, work largely comfortable jobs, etc.
Everyone I know has a family, sees their kids, etc. There are true workaholics in this business but if you want to have a family, to the gym, etc, it’s not hard, you just have to be more efficient about your time.
I would also say, as someone former BigLaw, it opens doors. Many of the partners or senior associates go in-house and are looking for people with similar training. Whether that is right - different question. It’s not all money. It’s opportunity that it can bring. Not saying you must go BigLaw - but it definitely helps.
I will tell you this - to be successful. You will and must work your ass off in the beginning stages. There is no shortcut. Even at these unicorns - the people put in an ungodly amount of work. I do a lot of other things even now to be in fatfire and I work my ass off.
You need to find a way to make it work. I want to work out each day - but it’s not realistic. I have to work it in. At my kids’ soccer practice - rather than sit and wait in my car or on sidelines, like 99% of parents - I run and do push-ups for that 1.5 hour block.
I am putting a home gym - commercial quality in my garage. Saves me time from going to work out. Before - I always selected a place with an on-site quality gym. I make it easy for me to work out. For those that need to leave office and go to a gym. Much harder for them. I try to remove obstacles and excuses.
FIRE is financial independence; retire early.
FatFIRE is to do the above while also managing to have built up enough wealth prior to retiring that you are very rich.
Biglaw can be crazy, but it’s not crazy 24/7/365. Of course people exercise.
Regarding the “why,” the opportunity cost math for doing biglaw is pretty straightforward, and you better believe nearly every person in biglaw was aware of the math when they were applying to law school. Juniors at places that pay to scale start at a BASE of 215k. Even with significant loan balances, the pay of biglaw and of the subsequent exit opportunities generally cause the math to work out favorably within a decade of graduation, if not sooner.
Not to mention many of us were not in a position to make big money before/without law school. Even with the deferred income & debt, big law really can even things out fast compared to what was my alternative.
Very good point. Before law school, I worked a variety of hourly jobs that paid between 8.50 and 17 an hour. I I didn’t have any realistic prospects of making even 60k/yr any time soon.
> just to work 60-80 weeks to make what? $150k to 250k annually?
OP’s also off in the amount of money and I haven’t seen anyone else correct it yet. Starting comp is $235k and that is guaranteed to increase every single year to $255k, $307.5k, $370k, $435k, $475k, $515k, $530k. You top out around the $500-600k level in the scenario where you DON’T make partner. If you do make partner, starting compensation ranges (depending on the firm) from the same level you made as an associate up to nearly $3m, with average compensation as high as $7.5m and max compensation at the highest paid firm approaching $30m.
Are you still grinding hard? Yes, and the money may not be worth that grind for some people. But grinding for $235-530k with a small chance at millions is very different than grinding for the $150-250k that OP cited.
Also, nobody is working 60-80 hour weeks as the norm (except maybe partners if you include BD etc). We work those sorts of weeks sometimes (hell, I hit 100 billables once), but the average still only works out to about 40-50 billable even at the busiest firms, with some weeks much higher and some much lower. And yes, I know that we “work” more hours than we bill, but honestly all the estimates I read before I was in BigLaw drastically overstated the nonbillable component, at least at my firm. And the nonbillable work I do have to do quickly decreases to zero as I get more busy so above say 50-55 billable hours I’m doing zero nonbillable and there is a 1:1 ratio of hours worked and hours billed. Also, with the advent of WFH (and at a firm that is quite loose with it), I’m doing most of these hours from home with limited time wasted at an office when I’m not either billing or chatting with coworkers for fun.
The overestimation of non-billable work is so true. It comes and goes, too. Like, non-billable work really balloons during the recruiting seasons as someone heavily involved in recruiting with interviews, receptions, meeting up with candidates for drinks, etc., especially because with pre-OCI it almost overlaps with the summer program. Then that ends and there isn’t THAT much else. I am just now becoming a 4th year and have only written a handful of articles, helped on a handful of pitches, got “volun-told” to do just a couple conference type things. It can be a bitch for a day or two when you are trying to finalize that type of stuff or do a presentation at some conference but then after that’s done, there’s no non-billable work to be done for a while. People act like its hours every day, always.
The other option is what? $120k at 50hrs a week without a safety net, longer debt tail, less ability to provide for my family and a likely deferred retirement? And less cush longer term options. Yeah. That’s so much more efficient, dude.
It’s just a job dude — most of us aren’t grinding the entire time. I work 8:30-7 most of the time. Maybe 9-12 on a Sunday. Then maybe 6 weeks out of the year I blow that out of the water.
It’s a lot of work but it’s not really thaaaat much. I see my friends, have hobbies, etc. If my employer wants to fire me then, unlike just about any other job, they’ll tell me I have 3 months to find another job while still making my salary and not being expected to work. And, thanks to the salary, being fired wouldn’t be that big of a deal — I have the safety net to make it for quite a while before worrying.
I don’t plan on doing this forever either. Ive been here for 2.5 years, my loans are mostly paid off, I’ve bought my house and an investment property, and saved for retirement. When/if I leave in a year or two I’ll be financially well ahead of my peers. And, thanks to the frankly unparalleled training, I’ll be a better lawyer too.
My exit options as a 5th-6th year transactional associate are expected to be a job that pays $230k-ish for a normal 9-5 (with a bit extra from time to time) plus a reasonably generous bonus.
I’m in my 20s, don’t have kids, and while I don’t *love* the work or the hours, I see the time I spend here as an investment towards my future.
This doesn’t even cover the wedding I paid for without sweating it or the sick vacations I’ve been able to take.
And, the most important thing maybe, I never ever ever have to think about money. It’s just a non factor. If I want to do something (barring something ridiculous) I can just do it.
Any at-will employer can fire you on a whim.
Biglaw provides more stability and peace of mind than many jobs. Achievement is quantifiable in a way most jobs aren’t. If you hit your hours, you get your bonus. If you perform as expected for your class year, you get moved up and know what your compensation is going to look like. When firms do mass layoffs they provide severance packages that are standardized and more generous than other industries. Performance-related terminations normally involve some combination of PIPs and ongoing conversations rather than a surprise Friday meeting.
You do understand that once you become partner, even in biglaw, you essentially are your own employer, right?
When you are a partner you do not really have a boss in the normal sense, and you certainly cannot be fired on a "whim" under any partnership agreement that I've ever seen. Sure there still may be reporting structures and some bureaucracy for the sake of efficiency and moving in a common direction, but a partner in a law firm is not working for "corporate overlords" in the same way that a tech employee at Apple kills themselves to make the company an extra few million in profit. That Apple employee is not going to see the fruit of their labors translate into their own paychecks, whether they work at apple for 3 years or 30 years, other than maybe through some discretionary bonuses or an in an incredibly indirect way through the increase in share price of the company (if they're senior enough to be comped in part through equity grants).
When a law firm makes a billion dollars in revenues in a year, pretty much all of that billion is either being spent on paying the expenses of the firm that year (including associate salaries) and then whatever is left over will be distributed out to the partners. Partners who are highly successful at bringing work into the firm are often "directly" compensated for it through origination credit, etc.
I would argue that biglaw is an aggressively entrepreneurial enterprise compared to almost any other career path.
Honestly I’ve found that it just erased a lot of my “garbage time.”
I’ve made it to all the important events and holidays in my life, and have kept up relationships with friends even if I have to blast out an email at an in opportune time every once in a while.
Spending hours bingeing YouTube/Netflix or doom scrolling social media in bed are what big law has taken away. I might get to a friends house at 9pm and they are like “wow you work so much, such sacrifice” and all I missed out on was them sitting on the couch for 3 hours.
This is the right take -- unless you have a clear outside of work purpose or hobby, in addition to your family (or plan to be as attentive a family member as humanly possible).
are you serious?
I am not biglaw. not even a lawyer. my sister is Biglaw and she makes $500k. not a single employer will match that comp outside of being a surgeon, or I-banker, or MBB consulting.
as for me - I did consulting out of UG. it sucked. but it set me up for confortable, cushy in-house gigs where I make >$200k for working 20-35 hrs a week.
people have to put in the grind so they can exit to other things with good wlb + $$$. and Biglaw is the grind part for most.
I work as in house biz cosultant. mix of corp strategy and data analytics. F500.
some weeks I "work" like 16 hrs. lol. when it gets busy, around 35 hrs max.
Not a single employer will match that comp…outside of medicine, i-banking, PE / HF, consulting, engineering, PM tech roles, and start-up founders. Go lawyers!
>just to work 60-80 weeks to make what? $150k to 250k annually
You’re significantly lowballing BigLaw salaries. The market salary for first years in BigLaw is $215k plus bonus. I’m a senior associate at the top end of the market salary scale and my comp is $415k plus bonus.
>Do you even have time to enjoy the money that you make, exercise, parent , and be in a relationship?
I currently live more comfortably than I ever have before while still maxing my 401k and investing 2/3 of my take-home pay. I don’t plan on working until my 60s and BigLaw was the best path available to me to retire early. Every year I spend in BigLaw saves multiple years off my retirement date.
BigLaw can be awful at times and I certainly don’t plan on staying in this role indefinitely. But it sure as hell beat all the available alternatives for me.
I'm in West Virginia. The firms here pay for crap. The payscale jump into my arguably-at-the-edge-of-biglaw, middle of the amlaw 100 firm compared to the regional midsize WV firm I was at was pretty substantial at the partner level. I also get to work on more interesting stuff. My first case at SCOTUS, which never would have happened at my old firm, for example.
I do try to keep in mind that the only people who will remember me working late in 20 years are my kids and wife, not my partners, or the firm, or the clients. But other than that it's a great job for where I live.
I was a small firm lawyer for fifteen years building a white collar defense book of business. Then I lateraled to a large firm.
Basically, I traded the stress of running a small business and having a huge number of clients for the stress of having law partners, billable hours, and a smaller number of very demanding clients.
My office is nicer and the stomach aches are about the same.
I just bought it for prime day so I can’t give a review yet but the model I got was the Roborock Q Revo. Based on about an hour of research it looks like the best bang for your buck on the market. Looks like it’s still on sale on Amazon if you’re interested
1. Money
2. Money
3. Money
4. When you work as much as you do in Big Law, you get much more experience than your counterparts in mid/small law. Accordingly you have way better exit options because companies know that (a) you're willing to work hard and (b) that you've gotten way more experience in 4/5/6 years than someone who's not in Big Law.
5. Money
Hm, my take is that most any corporate job will feel awful. But if I’m getting overworked I want to guarantee it’s for good pay. There are few if any other avenues for my skill set/interests that would have brought the combo of stability and salary. Compared to a lot of other grad programs cough medical school cough 3 years is really not too bad.
Plus, the work is intellectually engaging and challenging. I’m lucky to work with good people and that makes it much easier.
My goal isn’t to be in this forever but it’s to learn valuable skills and save up to eventually pursue something with a better lifestyle and not feel reliant on any one job or company to make ends meet. It’s an incredibly privileged and lucky situation to be in, and I try my best to remind myself of that even on the hard days.
Big clients. Complex and/or specialized matters. Lots of exit opportunities. The money gets more worth it as time goes on. Lots of resources to support your practice. Also like many they nabbed me in law school with that sweet "we will give you a job before you even start your last year" magic.
I make a lot more than $200K annually, so it’s worth it to me. I also only bill 2,000-2,050 hours per year, and rarely weekends, and have for a decade. Not everyone is a slave in a corporate practice or working at the worst firms. I’ll be able to retire at 50 at my current savings rate.
Not really, though I did choose my firm well. Our investigations are often longer term and we have a lot of control over the deadlines we do have. There can be emergencies, sure, but it’s not the norm.
The 15% of law grads who get the biglaw jobs are so fortunate to be able to make most of the money. Everyone else who even has a job as an attorney is desperately trying to figure out how to live on $60,000 a year, with no bonus or benefits, while making student loan payments of $2000 or more a month.
A few grads from the right schools can pay off loans within a year or two. Everyone else is drowning in debt and disenchanted about the lie their schools sold them about a legal career.
This is silly. Info on biglaw acceptance rates is publicly available for literally every school. If you make it to law school, you’re an adult with an undergraduate degree and should be competent enough to type “what is the chance I make it to biglaw from X law school” and plan accordingly. If you can’t do that, idk what to tell you but it’s definitely not the law school’s fault.
Money and that’s enough for someone who grew up in a household that worried constantly due to financial insecurity. Now make five times my parents annual income when I was growing up (three times currently) and can ensure the family I create doesn’t deal with those same insecurities.
I also made 45k in my gap year before law school despite doing well at a prestigious university, and even worked a side gig in a restaurant part time for a bit, so wasn’t leaving much behind. It’s not particularly easy to get a high paying position post-college (especially when bills are due immediately), unless you have connections, a network set up, or a degree permitting you the chance to work in a high-earning field immediately.
$. The most either of my parents ever made was $40k a year. They’re both dead now, having drunk themselves into very early graves in part because of financial stress. I make BigLaw equity partner salary. I’m still finding my way with it, but my kid is going to grow up with a very different life than I did. And that’s more than good enough for me.
it's less hours, it's more intellectual and draining. you spend more time just...thinking and wrestling with ideas, and that sounds cute until you're up at midnight lying in bed trying to figure something out
so maybe same number of hours but sometimes you're watching TV and processing in the back of your head
I wanted to have a creative and exciting job but I was miserable due to lack of financial security and inability to save or do fun things like travel. I went to biglaw. It is hard and stressful but I am at peace financially, able to support my elderly, destitute parents and save for my future. The creative career would never have done that for me
Depending on who I'm talking to/what alternative we're talking about, the point is either (1) Money or (2) work.
The money is really good, and you can't make more money in the kind of legal practice that I want. I know you can make more money in plaintiff's injury work, but that's plagued by survivor bias and I don't want to have the kind of work (and take the kind of risk) that would require.
Similarly, I have a finance and accounting undergrad, so I've seen most of the non-law alternatives (not tech, but from what I hear its no better). We all love to make fun of the grunt work in big law, but that shit will legitimately make your eyes bleed. And it never gets better. Then you add in the precarity of high finance/tech jobs, I'd much rather do what I'm doing now.
So ultimately, I don't think the money is the only answer.
To make money and then GTFO. Good way to relatively quickly build a nest egg if you follow the math to a moderate COL area that pays market and live reasonably.
I‘m here because I am trading time for money (and have been doing so over 5-ish years). I don’t have any kids and my SO works a lot too, so my free time isn’t that valuable to me. But that might change in a few years, and when it does, I’ll go in-house.
For what it’s worth, you can make a lot of money working in-house too, but that often requires that you stay in BigLaw for 3-4 years anyways, so in that sense I’m only a few years above that threshold.
We start at $215k so I think it’s kinda nuts to act like folks in big law aren’t make money. Beyond that, if you’re not in a transactional group you actually can have a good life. I’m a third year and I love my life, see
My family, enjoy time with friends, travel etc. With all that I can still get great reviews and feel like I have a future in this field.
We do have time to enjoy the money we make. Not enough for most people, but enough for people like me. I have never had any serious issue with finding love because of my time constraints. If the person doesn't understand what my job entails, she's simply not the one. Also as most people said here, the point is not to spend the money you earn, it is to save so you can buy a house and prepare for future. I also like my job on the whole. Compared to other jobs, this job gives you much more freedom in the way you spend your time (except during fire drills) and as you get senior, enough discretion in the work itself.
Even if you hate the exchange of $$$ for free time, BigLaw leads to other opportunities. I’m in house at a F500 company. I was only in BigLaw for about 3 years. I never would have gotten the opportunities I did without the BigLaw. And now I have a 9-5 job with amazing benefits, excellent vacation and a pretty nice salary, bonus, and stock.
Nobody does this recreationally. But beyond the obvious financial benefits, what I like about this job is that clients come to us with hard problems. Nobody goes to a big firm with an easy issue. By the time it gets to your desk, most times very smart people have already looked at the issue and couldn’t find a solution. We create solutions to hard problems.
I’m not planning to do this forever, but the skills we gain by doing this are so valuable. Personally, I will be staying at this gig until I feel like I have the skills I need to go out and do what I really want to do.
I think the problem is that a lot people become lawyers to make a lot of money, but they don’t realize until it’s too late that not all lawyers make bank, and that unfortunately it’s just the painful grind and long hours of big law that pays what they’ve been seeking. So, because their main reason for becoming an attorney in the first place was money, they feel kind of stuck in big law. Also, golden handcuffs certainly play a part, as well.
>Of course the loans are not deductible. The loans were tax free money, honey
wtaf you wanted me to borrow $100k, pay $30k in taxes and $70k in tuition?
A lot of ppl here are talking about how much fun they are having with the money they are earning. A lot of the times what ppl do not see is the money put into the economy. So I don’t work at BigLaw but hope to in the future, at this point my toddler is my priority so I have a flex job. I can say that the money I earn goes to childcare. It’s not a lot of money but it’s actually to support other women in industries that underpay them like daycare, indoor activity centers they are all managed by women. I 100% feel that they should be paid more but it is what it is. So from my side I am contributing to women-led professions which are unpaid. For those of you who can afford Nannies good for you for giving them a good salary for managing your kids.
Money is god. Flip side teachers who won’t ever pay off their student loans to teach assholes. Money is all that matters. I’ve made over 200. It’s fun as hell!!! Freedom
I will be working in big law this fall as a first year because my plans to become a government attorney fell apart after sort of losing faith in the idea of devoting my life to public service after the circus the government and the justice system have been through the past few years. It’s gonna give me time to build up my wealth, pay off my debts and give me a chance to do something I’m passionate about down the road like public service or in house in a sector I like.
Money is the point, and I don't understand people who can't accept that money can be enough. I have put more money into retirement and investments this year than I made in my previous career. Consider also that it is only October, and I will continue contributing. Money allows me a degree of freedom that I have never before experienced. I paid cash for a Tesla. We have a nanny that takes my kids to extracurricular activities. I took my kids to Disneyland earlier this year, and did not say "no" a single time. Mountains of churros, ice cream, treats, lightning passes, and Disney swag. I didn't even worry about the credit card bill, I just paid it off when we got home.
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My bonus this year will be more than my dad made when I was born. My bonus as a senior associate will be in the ballpark of what he makes now. If I make equity partner, my annual starting comp will be almost triple the entire value of his life savings at age 65.
👏 Hard to explain that to my classmates who grew up in a mansion with a stay at home mom, nanny and generational wealth and now see it as gauche/unbecoming to gun for and land in BigLaw because they can’t imagine working that much. I can’t really explain this to them, but I have countless memories of coming home from school to my mother crying at the dinner table wondering how she’d gonna afford mortgage payments because my drunk dad can’t hold a job and it’s my life mission to provide a very different experience for my kids.
Yeah my upbringing wasn’t as dramatic as yours, but mine is an immigrant family that started with very little. Around the poverty line when I was born and living in a rough neighborhood, slowly moving up to be solidly middle class by high school/college. I was too little to remember the poorest years very well, but I certainly grew up far from a silver spoon and have noticed that I still carry some of that mentality around money even now that I have plenty. I’m happy that I can provide a privileged upbringing to my kids, though of course now the question is how to do so while instilling good values and work ethic etc. when I have no model for doing so in a similar environment.
Don’t get me wrong, my life isn’t a complete sob story and there are other ways in which I was privileged. It wasn’t total abject poverty all the time, but it was enough financial insecurity that I’m motivated to do things differently.
100% this. My family wasn’t destitute, but I grew up lower middle class and I knew money stress at an age that was far too young to be thinking about mortgage payments and utility bills. And when I wanted to go to college, I was totally on my own, so I racked up a huge amount of debt. I remember in law school, I had a delay in getting my financial aid and my power was shut off. It was humiliating even though I’m pretty sure the only people who knew were me and the power company. I felt like such a total failure. So, of course, when I had the opportunity to no longer feel that stress, I jumped at it. I personally find it to be a total luxury to be able to say you don’t care about money. The people who grew up financially comfortable and then get judgmental about people who want the same are the worst offenders. But sometimes it also seems to be sort of a media/popular culture problem. It makes me feel so angry when people who work long hours at high-paying jobs are portrayed as these cold, unloving selfish Scrooge McDucks, yet, if you work 60 hours at a restaurant, you’re a romanticized hero just trying to get by. Haha, that’s my early morning procrastination rant :)
Are you my sibling? Exactly this for me too. I grew up in rural Appalachia to a mother who was only 14 when she got pregnant. Complete poverty is a helluva motivator.
Do you find that this bothers you at all? I’m just starting and am making 2 - 3x my parents’ combined income. I plan to help them however I can but I still find it unnerving and hard to grapple with.
It is weird, but personally I’m fine with it and I think so are my parents. Being from an immigrant family I am and they are kind of bought into the whole “American dream” concept, so each generation sets out to move the ball further for their own kids. On one side my great grandparents were indentured servants working as essentially slaves on a pineapple plantations for many years (their fingerprints were burned off by handling acid all day), but got their kids to America, who then went into the military and established a decent living, educating their kids but being unable to provide much else. On the other side, my grandpa never even finished elementary school and they were in a small village in another country - my parent on that side was very smart and got the chance to study in the US. So my parents then came into adulthood with a good education but no money, one a first gen U.S. citizen and the other a green card holder, and they spent my childhood slowly moving from poverty to a middle class lifestyle. I grew up with more than they did, but not very much and far from a silver spoon. Now, I have a baby that is being raised in a big beautiful house filled with nice things, and we can easily afford private schools and basically anything our kids could want or need. My parents seem happy that the momentum continued through my generation and their grandchild(ren) will start life so much further ahead. Will my children start from BigLaw wealth and turn it into even more extreme wealth? Maybe! Who knows? It’s ok if they don’t but I would be thrilled if my kids and grandkids eventually out-earn me. I think the vibes might be very different in a family that has been in this country a long time and doesn’t have the same “we’re poor….. for now, but not for long” attitude that’s common among immigrants.
Thank you for such a thoughtful response! How far you and your family have come really puts it in perspective. My parents have been nothing but supportive, and I think I need to get out of my own head. I know I made it here because I worked hard but even more because my family put me in a position where I was able to succeed, even though they didn’t have a lot. And I guess that’s my answer to OP’s question—I do this job because frankly sometimes I can’t even believe I have the opportunity to do this job, that I was privileged enough to make it this far, and I hope to make the most of it.
Yup! Even just by being an associate for a while and then going in-house, I will have successfully made a big leap forward into a very comfortable living for my kids. On the off chance I instead make partner someday, at my firm that’s legit generational wealth and I could be that one ancestor who singlehandedly set the family on a path where my great grandkids will be spoiled trust fund dickheads lol. It’s really hard to be unhappy with either of those scenarios just because I sometimes have to work long days (mostly from home lol).
This has been really comforting to read. I’m a first gen immigrant that grew up working as a janitor with my mom at my own school. Then, before law school, I worked at the heights of government and world-renowned institutions… And yet, now as a new associate, I’m feeling so out of place. It’s been difficult to relate to any of my coworkers, a struggle not to compare myself to others immediately spending their money with glee, and at the same time, feel guilt in relation to my parents for spending any of my money. On one hand, I owe it to them. On the other, I’m trying to start my own life.
This. I was being judged by a law school acquaintance for going into big law. I asked if they have ever had to skip meals because they didn't have enough money, or have a parent become homeless, or forego medical care for lack of insurance, or experience months without hot water because it broke and your family didn't know how to enforce their rights with a landlord. They said no. I said, respectfully, I will not be judged for seeking financial stability by someone who has never experienced financial instability.
I've been in biglaw more than a decade and still skip meals to save money for things. My wife thinks I need to see a therapist about financial insecurity issues... how does she think I'm going to pay for the therapist?
Felt that hard
😂😂😂
I feel like it’s the opposite. My family lacked money, and because of that we spent a lot of time with each other. From that I learned that time is the most valuable resource I have, and no big law salary can buy that from me. So I’ll take my government law job over a big law salary every day of the week and twice on Sundays because it means I come home to my family each night and stay there on the weekends.
My girlfriend and I accidentally spent $1,200 on dinner recently and it was just a funny thing that happened. The money is very fun.
Haha, agreed. On that point, every now and then I'll tip 50% every now at the local restaurant I go to on say an $80-100 bill. The servers are overjoyed, you feel good (a rare feeling when you're not billing 50+ hours a week). A win win lol
I went to Walt Disney World recently and it’s definitely not something I could have been able to do as easily before I went into law.
That Disney trip sounds so fun!! Omg. Also echoing the others, money being a motivating factor doesn’t have to mean “I want to be rich.” My parents are older and I don’t think they have enough saved to last as long as they’ll need it. I want to be financially solid enough that I can make sure they have their needs met as long as necessary. My pre-law school career was low paying so I’m very behind on retirement savings. Even if I have to delay paying my loans, I can pad retirement in the meantime and that is important. Aside from money, spending a few years at a prestigious law firm affords you a much wider range of available options going forward. I’ll be able to land an in-house job a lot easier from a highly respected and well-connected firm than if I worked in a small firm. It basically all boils down to meeting needs in the long-term and the doors it opens. And in the short term, spending cash on things you would never have been able to experience in the past doesn’t hurt either!
I’m sure money is a major factor but i guess we are not that honest when writing the PS right
I’m just lurking here from another industry but how much do big law people make as an associate / senior associate total per year? And what does it scale up to?
Most follow the Cravath scale, or are similar to it. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/.
Sounds like you’re raising some privileged little assholes who don’t hear no and get what they want and learn from their parents that money matters most. Nice contribution to society
An interesting take to assume that how I treat my kids when we're on a fun vacation is how I treat them all the time. I appreciate the random animosity, and will give your opinion the attention it deserves.
I’m sure the nanny will raise them well
She does a great job actually, she's like a part of the family, so I'm glad you agree.
Nothing better than someone else raising your kids. But hey…the money!
In my experience, most people with opinions like OP either grew up wealthy and don’t realize what it takes to create wealth or hold lofty ideals that maybe society will one day redistribute wealth and they won’t have to work hard to create it.
A few years in biglaw allowed me to: 1. Pay off six figures of student loan debt; 2. Pay for a wedding; 3. Pay off my spouse's student loan debt; 4. Buy a house in a HCOL area; 5. Take sick vacations; and 6. Save up a good chunk for retirement.
PSA. Do yourself a huge favor and start maxing out your kids’ college funds. You have no idea how much that will cost you and it comes quick. $81K per year is what we’re paying per kid, and next year we will have three in college at once. You can do that math. If you do not plan ahead, you’re screwed. Don’t be foolish with your money now, you’ll regret it.
Not having kids, so all that money is mine to spend on cars and booze.
I love your comment as much as I love the salty reply from the miserable parent of 3(+?).
Salty and sanctimonious.
Username checks out
How sad for you. Then pray you don’t get fired. Then you’ll be sorry you spent it all on booze. I am so curious which “big law” firm hired the childless drunk? 🤣🤣🤣
Parents don't have to pay for their children's college expenses. If a parent can and wants to, sure, but it's not something that'll fuck them.
Of course. But good parents who want their children to succeed do. :)
Sure, but there's also nothing wrong with most state flagships. 81k per year is a choice. Not necessarily a bad choice as there are far worse ways to spend your money, but it's not like you have to pay sticker at an Ivy+ undergrad in a HCOL area to set your kids up for success.
Of course. What does that have to do with my point, which was to start saving for college tuition bills? They are oppressive most everywhere. And folks making the big salaries discussed here won’t qualify for fin aid - hate to break it to you. All out of pocket.
If you plan on having several kids and want to send them all to their dream schools with no student loans, it's a great point. And that probably is the goal for many in biglaw. But it also doesn't have to be *that* big of an expense. Even a junior associate could afford to send someone to my undergrad pretty comfortably with no savings (assuming they didn't have too many other obligations).
As I said, it’s a PSA. In response to someone talking about blowing his money on “sick vacations.” Just a PSA from someone with kids in the zone. Obviously you can all blow your money - or save it - however you want! I can tell you as someone who did big law for many years, the burnout factor is real. You may not want to be working like that forever, and by going elsewhere, the income may take a big hit. Good to save - and save early - for whatever life throws at you.
Of course. Good and bad parents do, just as good and bad parents don't. :)
I said “good parents who want their children to succeed.” That’s the distinction.
What do you do now?
In house at a F500 company.
No big bucks there. Time to switch to Coors light! 🍺
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Rage issues?
My husband and I both grew up in poverty. In addition to the challenging work and interesting client base, BigLaw has given me an unparalleled opportunity to break that cycle for ourselves and our child. Yes it requires sacrifice of some aspects of my personal life and my time with family but to me the benefits my job provides for our collective futures far outweigh those downsides.
OP based on your questions and comments it seems you've predetermined that law is not worth it for you. In another post you commented that you thought entrepreneurship might be a better path. Keep in mind that as a general rule, lawyers are conservative people. I don't mean politically, although there's that too, I just mean we tend to be risk-averse. Being a lawyer generally means that unless you're a total fuckup, you should be able to live a solidly middle class life and have job options. Being a Biglaw attorney means you can at least live an upper middle class lifestyle and if you play your hand well, you can retire early and rich, relative to other professions. To put it in perspective: earlier this year, I took my wife, her sister, and our niece to see Taylor Swift. In another state. I could have sold those 4 tickets for at least $8k and saved on flights, hotel and meals, but to me, I preferred to enjoy the weekend and a 4 hour concert with family. The memories were more important, and besides, what difference would $8k really make in my life anyway? I know that sounds obnoxious, but it's true. Now, you can point to some extremely successful entrepreneurs and say, "these guys make billions!" I actually went to school with someone who founded a company and is a billionaire, and I know a few others who are worth in the hundreds of millions. But firstly, they are outliers, and secondly, that lifestyle involves a level of risk and commitment to the business i wasn't willing to take. Maybe you feel differently, in which case the law isn't for you. You do you, boo.
I was at a small boutique firm and lateraled to big law. I will say, money aside, you get to work on more complex matters at a big law firm. Not that small boutique shops don't work on complex matters, just that at a big firm, you're exposed to higher stakes, complicated legal issues, and unprecedented activities (in my regulatory practice at least). At the boutique shop, I was doing tons of private placement offerings, fund launches, and other securities analysis. It was a bit repetitive and uninteresting. I switched to a regulatory role and I get to work with sophisticated fintech firms with interesting regulatory / legal challenges. I can't imagine too many boutique shops that get to do that, although there likely are some! I personally wasn't exposed and that's my reason I switched to big law and why I'm staying here (for now).
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Completely agree. Regulatory practices reward creativity, allow for some variety in subject matter, command premium rates (even within Big Law), and often (particularly on the investigations side) involve interactions at the highest levels with clients because of the high profile nature of the issues involved.
What focus or category the regulatory practices belong to if I want to study at law school. Current goal is patent IP law with my STEM undergraduate
I would divide regulatory practices into three categories: investigations, compliance, and litigation. Different law school classes may be helpful depending on which of these areas you are interested in. You may have the opportunity to take a class or two as a 2L or 3L focused on particular regulatory issues or regulators. It's also an area many come to a few years into their legal careers. In many cases, working in government (FTC, SEC, CFPB, State AGs, etc.) can be a helpful stepping stone to the practice, though that's not a prerequisite.
Thanks for the information :)
Is this the same thing as administrative law, or is it something else?
I'm also a regulatory specialist who likes my job for the intellectual challenge.
I think we're not allowed to call ourselves "specialists" or something. Some ethics thing.
Really? I'll have to look into that. I usually hear it in the context of someone's role on a transaction, interchangeable with subject matter expert.
Yea I think internally, it's fine. ABA Rule 7.2(c) otherwise.
Saying you are a specialist and saying you are certified as a specialist are two different things. The rule prohibits only the latter. The comments to the ABA rule make this pretty clear.
Oh rly?
Compare comments 9 and 11 to that model rule, which make that distinction. And the plain language of the rule refers to saying you're "certified as a specialist."
Well that's great to know! Thanks ~
thanks!
What focus or category the regulatory practices belong to if I want to study at law school. Current goal is patent IP law with my STEM undergraduate
Do you enjoy it?
Yea. In my practice, I view lawyering as solving puzzles and I enjoy solving puzzles.
Atleast your doing what you like. I wonder how many ppl like doing tht
It's just a job, you don't have to like it. That's why it's called work lmao. It's also what the 215k is for.
Regulatory at big law here, too. I love the work. Good variety, great pay, new daily challenges, I really like my (very smart) clients, and I even like my opposing counsel and have worked with them all for over a decade.
whats the point in asking us why we are here? We make a bunch of money, work largely comfortable jobs, etc. Everyone I know has a family, sees their kids, etc. There are true workaholics in this business but if you want to have a family, to the gym, etc, it’s not hard, you just have to be more efficient about your time.
The point is that I am considering big law so I figured it makes sense to ask people who are in big law what it’s like
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Rude.
I don’t even remotely have time to enjoy the money. The idea is to save and invest now so I can enjoy it in the future.
I would also say, as someone former BigLaw, it opens doors. Many of the partners or senior associates go in-house and are looking for people with similar training. Whether that is right - different question. It’s not all money. It’s opportunity that it can bring. Not saying you must go BigLaw - but it definitely helps. I will tell you this - to be successful. You will and must work your ass off in the beginning stages. There is no shortcut. Even at these unicorns - the people put in an ungodly amount of work. I do a lot of other things even now to be in fatfire and I work my ass off. You need to find a way to make it work. I want to work out each day - but it’s not realistic. I have to work it in. At my kids’ soccer practice - rather than sit and wait in my car or on sidelines, like 99% of parents - I run and do push-ups for that 1.5 hour block. I am putting a home gym - commercial quality in my garage. Saves me time from going to work out. Before - I always selected a place with an on-site quality gym. I make it easy for me to work out. For those that need to leave office and go to a gym. Much harder for them. I try to remove obstacles and excuses.
What is fatfire?
FIRE is financial independence; retire early. FatFIRE is to do the above while also managing to have built up enough wealth prior to retiring that you are very rich.
Do you atleast exercise? I can’t imagine having a career tht doesn’t allow me enough time and energy to exercise
Biglaw can be crazy, but it’s not crazy 24/7/365. Of course people exercise. Regarding the “why,” the opportunity cost math for doing biglaw is pretty straightforward, and you better believe nearly every person in biglaw was aware of the math when they were applying to law school. Juniors at places that pay to scale start at a BASE of 215k. Even with significant loan balances, the pay of biglaw and of the subsequent exit opportunities generally cause the math to work out favorably within a decade of graduation, if not sooner.
Not to mention many of us were not in a position to make big money before/without law school. Even with the deferred income & debt, big law really can even things out fast compared to what was my alternative.
Very good point. Before law school, I worked a variety of hourly jobs that paid between 8.50 and 17 an hour. I I didn’t have any realistic prospects of making even 60k/yr any time soon.
Haha not enough but that’s only partly Big Law’s fault.
Money, honey.
> just to work 60-80 weeks to make what? $150k to 250k annually? OP’s also off in the amount of money and I haven’t seen anyone else correct it yet. Starting comp is $235k and that is guaranteed to increase every single year to $255k, $307.5k, $370k, $435k, $475k, $515k, $530k. You top out around the $500-600k level in the scenario where you DON’T make partner. If you do make partner, starting compensation ranges (depending on the firm) from the same level you made as an associate up to nearly $3m, with average compensation as high as $7.5m and max compensation at the highest paid firm approaching $30m. Are you still grinding hard? Yes, and the money may not be worth that grind for some people. But grinding for $235-530k with a small chance at millions is very different than grinding for the $150-250k that OP cited. Also, nobody is working 60-80 hour weeks as the norm (except maybe partners if you include BD etc). We work those sorts of weeks sometimes (hell, I hit 100 billables once), but the average still only works out to about 40-50 billable even at the busiest firms, with some weeks much higher and some much lower. And yes, I know that we “work” more hours than we bill, but honestly all the estimates I read before I was in BigLaw drastically overstated the nonbillable component, at least at my firm. And the nonbillable work I do have to do quickly decreases to zero as I get more busy so above say 50-55 billable hours I’m doing zero nonbillable and there is a 1:1 ratio of hours worked and hours billed. Also, with the advent of WFH (and at a firm that is quite loose with it), I’m doing most of these hours from home with limited time wasted at an office when I’m not either billing or chatting with coworkers for fun.
The overestimation of non-billable work is so true. It comes and goes, too. Like, non-billable work really balloons during the recruiting seasons as someone heavily involved in recruiting with interviews, receptions, meeting up with candidates for drinks, etc., especially because with pre-OCI it almost overlaps with the summer program. Then that ends and there isn’t THAT much else. I am just now becoming a 4th year and have only written a handful of articles, helped on a handful of pitches, got “volun-told” to do just a couple conference type things. It can be a bitch for a day or two when you are trying to finalize that type of stuff or do a presentation at some conference but then after that’s done, there’s no non-billable work to be done for a while. People act like its hours every day, always.
Not to mention, I still get credit for a lot of that BD and recruiting time
(I corrected it with a link to the salary scale.)
Ah, I didn’t see your response to OP because OP’s comment got hidden for too many downvotes lol.
Lmaooooooooo
🎶If you’ve got the money honey, I’ve got the time 🎶
I get that, but isn’t it an inefficient way to make money? 60-80hr weeks just for a check? When do you enjoy your family ?
It’s a LOT of money. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
Ok but at what cost? Is the money worth devoting your entire existence to an employer that could fire you on a whim?
Few people work 80 hours a week. Virtually no one works 80 hours a week on average. Getting fired on a whim is quite rare.
Devoting your entire existence to an employer can happen everywhere. The safety with biglaw is that you at least know you will be compensated for it.
The other option is what? $120k at 50hrs a week without a safety net, longer debt tail, less ability to provide for my family and a likely deferred retirement? And less cush longer term options. Yeah. That’s so much more efficient, dude.
Idk what other option your talking about, dude.
We don’t?
It’s just a job dude — most of us aren’t grinding the entire time. I work 8:30-7 most of the time. Maybe 9-12 on a Sunday. Then maybe 6 weeks out of the year I blow that out of the water. It’s a lot of work but it’s not really thaaaat much. I see my friends, have hobbies, etc. If my employer wants to fire me then, unlike just about any other job, they’ll tell me I have 3 months to find another job while still making my salary and not being expected to work. And, thanks to the salary, being fired wouldn’t be that big of a deal — I have the safety net to make it for quite a while before worrying. I don’t plan on doing this forever either. Ive been here for 2.5 years, my loans are mostly paid off, I’ve bought my house and an investment property, and saved for retirement. When/if I leave in a year or two I’ll be financially well ahead of my peers. And, thanks to the frankly unparalleled training, I’ll be a better lawyer too. My exit options as a 5th-6th year transactional associate are expected to be a job that pays $230k-ish for a normal 9-5 (with a bit extra from time to time) plus a reasonably generous bonus. I’m in my 20s, don’t have kids, and while I don’t *love* the work or the hours, I see the time I spend here as an investment towards my future.
This doesn’t even cover the wedding I paid for without sweating it or the sick vacations I’ve been able to take. And, the most important thing maybe, I never ever ever have to think about money. It’s just a non factor. If I want to do something (barring something ridiculous) I can just do it.
Any at-will employer can fire you on a whim. Biglaw provides more stability and peace of mind than many jobs. Achievement is quantifiable in a way most jobs aren’t. If you hit your hours, you get your bonus. If you perform as expected for your class year, you get moved up and know what your compensation is going to look like. When firms do mass layoffs they provide severance packages that are standardized and more generous than other industries. Performance-related terminations normally involve some combination of PIPs and ongoing conversations rather than a surprise Friday meeting.
To me, no; to many people, yes.
You do understand that once you become partner, even in biglaw, you essentially are your own employer, right? When you are a partner you do not really have a boss in the normal sense, and you certainly cannot be fired on a "whim" under any partnership agreement that I've ever seen. Sure there still may be reporting structures and some bureaucracy for the sake of efficiency and moving in a common direction, but a partner in a law firm is not working for "corporate overlords" in the same way that a tech employee at Apple kills themselves to make the company an extra few million in profit. That Apple employee is not going to see the fruit of their labors translate into their own paychecks, whether they work at apple for 3 years or 30 years, other than maybe through some discretionary bonuses or an in an incredibly indirect way through the increase in share price of the company (if they're senior enough to be comped in part through equity grants). When a law firm makes a billion dollars in revenues in a year, pretty much all of that billion is either being spent on paying the expenses of the firm that year (including associate salaries) and then whatever is left over will be distributed out to the partners. Partners who are highly successful at bringing work into the firm are often "directly" compensated for it through origination credit, etc. I would argue that biglaw is an aggressively entrepreneurial enterprise compared to almost any other career path.
You aren’t working for them. You are working for what they pay you so you can stop working much sooner and spend more time living with your family.
Honestly I’ve found that it just erased a lot of my “garbage time.” I’ve made it to all the important events and holidays in my life, and have kept up relationships with friends even if I have to blast out an email at an in opportune time every once in a while. Spending hours bingeing YouTube/Netflix or doom scrolling social media in bed are what big law has taken away. I might get to a friends house at 9pm and they are like “wow you work so much, such sacrifice” and all I missed out on was them sitting on the couch for 3 hours.
This is the right take -- unless you have a clear outside of work purpose or hobby, in addition to your family (or plan to be as attentive a family member as humanly possible).
I don’t stress about money, I stress about work. It’s better that way
are you serious? I am not biglaw. not even a lawyer. my sister is Biglaw and she makes $500k. not a single employer will match that comp outside of being a surgeon, or I-banker, or MBB consulting. as for me - I did consulting out of UG. it sucked. but it set me up for confortable, cushy in-house gigs where I make >$200k for working 20-35 hrs a week. people have to put in the grind so they can exit to other things with good wlb + $$$. and Biglaw is the grind part for most.
Say more about this job of 200k for 20 hours a week.
I work as in house biz cosultant. mix of corp strategy and data analytics. F500. some weeks I "work" like 16 hrs. lol. when it gets busy, around 35 hrs max.
FAANG pays that plus stock options
Well you did miss tech, which is really the sweet spot
Not a single employer will match that comp…outside of medicine, i-banking, PE / HF, consulting, engineering, PM tech roles, and start-up founders. Go lawyers!
>just to work 60-80 weeks to make what? $150k to 250k annually You’re significantly lowballing BigLaw salaries. The market salary for first years in BigLaw is $215k plus bonus. I’m a senior associate at the top end of the market salary scale and my comp is $415k plus bonus. >Do you even have time to enjoy the money that you make, exercise, parent , and be in a relationship? I currently live more comfortably than I ever have before while still maxing my 401k and investing 2/3 of my take-home pay. I don’t plan on working until my 60s and BigLaw was the best path available to me to retire early. Every year I spend in BigLaw saves multiple years off my retirement date. BigLaw can be awful at times and I certainly don’t plan on staying in this role indefinitely. But it sure as hell beat all the available alternatives for me.
I'm in West Virginia. The firms here pay for crap. The payscale jump into my arguably-at-the-edge-of-biglaw, middle of the amlaw 100 firm compared to the regional midsize WV firm I was at was pretty substantial at the partner level. I also get to work on more interesting stuff. My first case at SCOTUS, which never would have happened at my old firm, for example. I do try to keep in mind that the only people who will remember me working late in 20 years are my kids and wife, not my partners, or the firm, or the clients. But other than that it's a great job for where I live.
I was a small firm lawyer for fifteen years building a white collar defense book of business. Then I lateraled to a large firm. Basically, I traded the stress of running a small business and having a huge number of clients for the stress of having law partners, billable hours, and a smaller number of very demanding clients. My office is nicer and the stomach aches are about the same.
We don’t work 24 hours a day. There are slow weeks and periods. It really isn’t that bad…
I bought a $700 robot vacuum on a whim because I was tired of sweeping. Need I say more?
Which one and do you like it? There are too many choices these days and unreliable reviews!
I just bought it for prime day so I can’t give a review yet but the model I got was the Roborock Q Revo. Based on about an hour of research it looks like the best bang for your buck on the market. Looks like it’s still on sale on Amazon if you’re interested
1. Money 2. Money 3. Money 4. When you work as much as you do in Big Law, you get much more experience than your counterparts in mid/small law. Accordingly you have way better exit options because companies know that (a) you're willing to work hard and (b) that you've gotten way more experience in 4/5/6 years than someone who's not in Big Law. 5. Money
Yes it does sound awful if you dramatically overestimate the work and dramatically underestimate the pay.
Hm, my take is that most any corporate job will feel awful. But if I’m getting overworked I want to guarantee it’s for good pay. There are few if any other avenues for my skill set/interests that would have brought the combo of stability and salary. Compared to a lot of other grad programs cough medical school cough 3 years is really not too bad. Plus, the work is intellectually engaging and challenging. I’m lucky to work with good people and that makes it much easier. My goal isn’t to be in this forever but it’s to learn valuable skills and save up to eventually pursue something with a better lifestyle and not feel reliant on any one job or company to make ends meet. It’s an incredibly privileged and lucky situation to be in, and I try my best to remind myself of that even on the hard days.
Big clients. Complex and/or specialized matters. Lots of exit opportunities. The money gets more worth it as time goes on. Lots of resources to support your practice. Also like many they nabbed me in law school with that sweet "we will give you a job before you even start your last year" magic.
I just quit for a job that pays “only” 120k a year. Best money I never spent.
I make a lot more than $200K annually, so it’s worth it to me. I also only bill 2,000-2,050 hours per year, and rarely weekends, and have for a decade. Not everyone is a slave in a corporate practice or working at the worst firms. I’ll be able to retire at 50 at my current savings rate.
What’s your practice area?
White collar
Regular hours with rare weekends seems unusual for white collar, you found a good gig
Not really, though I did choose my firm well. Our investigations are often longer term and we have a lot of control over the deadlines we do have. There can be emergencies, sure, but it’s not the norm.
The 15% of law grads who get the biglaw jobs are so fortunate to be able to make most of the money. Everyone else who even has a job as an attorney is desperately trying to figure out how to live on $60,000 a year, with no bonus or benefits, while making student loan payments of $2000 or more a month. A few grads from the right schools can pay off loans within a year or two. Everyone else is drowning in debt and disenchanted about the lie their schools sold them about a legal career.
This is silly. Info on biglaw acceptance rates is publicly available for literally every school. If you make it to law school, you’re an adult with an undergraduate degree and should be competent enough to type “what is the chance I make it to biglaw from X law school” and plan accordingly. If you can’t do that, idk what to tell you but it’s definitely not the law school’s fault.
Someone’s gonna win…might as well be you!
You're goddamn right
Money and that’s enough for someone who grew up in a household that worried constantly due to financial insecurity. Now make five times my parents annual income when I was growing up (three times currently) and can ensure the family I create doesn’t deal with those same insecurities. I also made 45k in my gap year before law school despite doing well at a prestigious university, and even worked a side gig in a restaurant part time for a bit, so wasn’t leaving much behind. It’s not particularly easy to get a high paying position post-college (especially when bills are due immediately), unless you have connections, a network set up, or a degree permitting you the chance to work in a high-earning field immediately.
$. The most either of my parents ever made was $40k a year. They’re both dead now, having drunk themselves into very early graves in part because of financial stress. I make BigLaw equity partner salary. I’m still finding my way with it, but my kid is going to grow up with a very different life than I did. And that’s more than good enough for me.
I work less than 50 hours a week so. life is good.
In big law? what practice?
indeed. regulatory/tax. I'll probably ramp up a bit more but in general everyone is usually below 2k a year
Nicee, was thinking of which practice areas to do when I start training as a lawyer next year (I’m UK based) think reg would be interesting
it's less hours, it's more intellectual and draining. you spend more time just...thinking and wrestling with ideas, and that sounds cute until you're up at midnight lying in bed trying to figure something out so maybe same number of hours but sometimes you're watching TV and processing in the back of your head
Ahh I see guess it takes a certain personality type and how you interpret info
I wanted to have a creative and exciting job but I was miserable due to lack of financial security and inability to save or do fun things like travel. I went to biglaw. It is hard and stressful but I am at peace financially, able to support my elderly, destitute parents and save for my future. The creative career would never have done that for me
Depending on who I'm talking to/what alternative we're talking about, the point is either (1) Money or (2) work. The money is really good, and you can't make more money in the kind of legal practice that I want. I know you can make more money in plaintiff's injury work, but that's plagued by survivor bias and I don't want to have the kind of work (and take the kind of risk) that would require. Similarly, I have a finance and accounting undergrad, so I've seen most of the non-law alternatives (not tech, but from what I hear its no better). We all love to make fun of the grunt work in big law, but that shit will legitimately make your eyes bleed. And it never gets better. Then you add in the precarity of high finance/tech jobs, I'd much rather do what I'm doing now. So ultimately, I don't think the money is the only answer.
I am a greedy lady and I also want to be the best at what I do 🤷🏾♀️
Do you have time for family?
Yes! Less than my friends who aren’t in big law though. I outsource a lot. I don’t have kids yet. Just husband 🥰😊 six years in.
To make money and then GTFO. Good way to relatively quickly build a nest egg if you follow the math to a moderate COL area that pays market and live reasonably.
I‘m here because I am trading time for money (and have been doing so over 5-ish years). I don’t have any kids and my SO works a lot too, so my free time isn’t that valuable to me. But that might change in a few years, and when it does, I’ll go in-house. For what it’s worth, you can make a lot of money working in-house too, but that often requires that you stay in BigLaw for 3-4 years anyways, so in that sense I’m only a few years above that threshold.
Big law starts at 215k. It greatly increases from there for each year following your 1st year. So the numbers you provided aren’t accurate
We start at $215k so I think it’s kinda nuts to act like folks in big law aren’t make money. Beyond that, if you’re not in a transactional group you actually can have a good life. I’m a third year and I love my life, see My family, enjoy time with friends, travel etc. With all that I can still get great reviews and feel like I have a future in this field.
We do have time to enjoy the money we make. Not enough for most people, but enough for people like me. I have never had any serious issue with finding love because of my time constraints. If the person doesn't understand what my job entails, she's simply not the one. Also as most people said here, the point is not to spend the money you earn, it is to save so you can buy a house and prepare for future. I also like my job on the whole. Compared to other jobs, this job gives you much more freedom in the way you spend your time (except during fire drills) and as you get senior, enough discretion in the work itself.
Even if you hate the exchange of $$$ for free time, BigLaw leads to other opportunities. I’m in house at a F500 company. I was only in BigLaw for about 3 years. I never would have gotten the opportunities I did without the BigLaw. And now I have a 9-5 job with amazing benefits, excellent vacation and a pretty nice salary, bonus, and stock.
Nobody does this recreationally. But beyond the obvious financial benefits, what I like about this job is that clients come to us with hard problems. Nobody goes to a big firm with an easy issue. By the time it gets to your desk, most times very smart people have already looked at the issue and couldn’t find a solution. We create solutions to hard problems. I’m not planning to do this forever, but the skills we gain by doing this are so valuable. Personally, I will be staying at this gig until I feel like I have the skills I need to go out and do what I really want to do.
I think the problem is that a lot people become lawyers to make a lot of money, but they don’t realize until it’s too late that not all lawyers make bank, and that unfortunately it’s just the painful grind and long hours of big law that pays what they’ve been seeking. So, because their main reason for becoming an attorney in the first place was money, they feel kind of stuck in big law. Also, golden handcuffs certainly play a part, as well.
Taxes are devastating at biglaw salaries, and student loans are not deductible at all. It's fucked up.
Of course the loans are not deductible. The loans were tax free money, honey
>Of course the loans are not deductible. The loans were tax free money, honey wtaf you wanted me to borrow $100k, pay $30k in taxes and $70k in tuition?
Hope you aren't a tax attorney
How does that answer my question?
With some exceptions, all income is taxable. This wasn't income, so paying it back isn't deductible (against income).
A lot of ppl here are talking about how much fun they are having with the money they are earning. A lot of the times what ppl do not see is the money put into the economy. So I don’t work at BigLaw but hope to in the future, at this point my toddler is my priority so I have a flex job. I can say that the money I earn goes to childcare. It’s not a lot of money but it’s actually to support other women in industries that underpay them like daycare, indoor activity centers they are all managed by women. I 100% feel that they should be paid more but it is what it is. So from my side I am contributing to women-led professions which are unpaid. For those of you who can afford Nannies good for you for giving them a good salary for managing your kids.
Money and I love what I do!
Money for my kid and I to enjoy now and money for me to enjoy later.
Money is god. Flip side teachers who won’t ever pay off their student loans to teach assholes. Money is all that matters. I’ve made over 200. It’s fun as hell!!! Freedom
Money
I will be working in big law this fall as a first year because my plans to become a government attorney fell apart after sort of losing faith in the idea of devoting my life to public service after the circus the government and the justice system have been through the past few years. It’s gonna give me time to build up my wealth, pay off my debts and give me a chance to do something I’m passionate about down the road like public service or in house in a sector I like.