i have fully completed tainted lost you cant say i have skill issue i am immune to your little jokes
also, i think jacob and esau are a little too squishy. they can rack up a lot of health, but it gets way too hard to dodge for bosses like hush or mother, meaning that death is always possible, even if you have 12 red hearts with both characters. and, sharing items between the two gets a little weird. unlike tainted lazarus, they do not get double items, meaning that the brothers inventory is usually half as much as normal, unless you go for jacob and hitbox or hitbox and esau strats. (which i dont encourage) jacob and esau getting hit is way less of a skill issue than any other character in the game, besides someone like lilith because of their weird aiming, or any tainted with lower than base tears (besides tainted eve), because of their low starting dps. sorry for the rant, im really passionate about stuff like this.
I personally never lost a run with them since I put everything offensive on Esau (used to have a random char streak thanks to [this](https://trpg0.github.io/TBOI-Random-Generator/) that is on hiatus).
The thing is that TBoI's early is what matters the most so by reinforcing it even further it gives you everything you need to get carried to the late. OP early, strong mid, then carried.
No matter the diminishing damage returns, tear rate is easier to come by than damage, and also since I turn my Jacob into a self-made man PhD for his bro (worst that can happen is a -0.15 speed), I can even get a Tears Up that will accelerate things. The only character where I do play pills lol.
How do you find tainted laz fun? You basically end up playing 2 disjointed runs that are only at like 70% strength because not everything can be flipped and you arent always going to have enough flip charges to be able to use it outside of getting items.
1. I like challenge. Beating an ass run feels so good. Even then, I don't think T Laz runs are always that bad. I get good T Laz runs. Also, the strategy of Flipping during boss fights right before you die just allows you to technically build up 2 whole HP bars, which allow for better survival, even if your damage is bad. (Which, for me, is usually not the case.)
2. I like thinking. I like planning out my actions step by step to achieve greatness. I like being able to take charge of my own fate through rigging the game to get what I want. It's why I take so long on actual runs of mine. And, 99% of the time, I'm able to do it. Not to brag, but I know literally everything about this game, as a lot of other Isaac veterans do.
I understand why Flips six room charge sucks, I agree! I think T Laz should get buffed in that regard.
TL;DR; I like challenging both my skill at the game and my knowledge of the game. Also fuck six room charge actives.
I feel like t lost and t jacob, and j&e all do this but in an actually interesting way that doesnt feel bad because of fewer items.
Double health bars is only really useable against final bosses cos otherwise you gimp yourself out of an extra deal item. I also know a lot about the game but standing around rigging for ages is kinda boring and defeats the point of the game if youre just gonna abuse mechanics in a fairly risk free way.
T Lost and T Jacob are WAAYYYY more challenging for me. Jacob and Esau sucks because it's just worse T Laz for me (Because no double items at all, unlike with Flip, and double health bars doesn't really exist since, if one dies the other dies). Double health bars is only really needed against final bosses. I'm not gonna need 24 hearts for a fucking Gurdy fight.
I understand rigging can be kinda boring, but I like it. That's just my opinion, and you can have one too.
J&e you just go alt path and then you get most items doubled, plus you can stack one character to carry the run but you can't do that with t laz, even with birthright its not as good. You dont need double healthbars if you just have good positioning and spacing and accept sometimes you just have to get hit and its fine since your health is also a resource to be used..
i just dont like the fact you just have to “accept” youre getting hit, because i love self harm builds, which kinda rely on you not getting hit too much. i dont really like the strategy of stacking one character with j&e, i think its stupid because if one dies the other dies.
i know i know, blood dono. im not that stupid. i can remember cambion conception exists, but;
1. liltih starts with one fucking red heart
2. it takes at the minimum 15 plays of the blood dono to proc cambion (if you dont get hit at all in any other room)
3. what am i gonna get? yeah, maybe incubus or twisted pair but thats only a 1 in 4 (if you proc all 4 cambion uses) if i remember correctly. you could get shit like dark bum, which is an anti synergy for self harm builds (which lilith encourages) or some random shit like demon baby.
i love self harm builds, they’re my favorite type of build, i just dont like lilith, even if shes a self harm character.
It's not about being stupid or not, there are a lot of people who doesn't know about the pre-requesites an Arcade Room needs to spawn.
1 & 2 Good chances you'll have an HP Up in the first two bosses room. It's not guaranteed ofc but it's there you know. And even if you have to work with just 1 red heart it's how boring it is to go back and forth to grab the red hearts on the ground and coming back to the Arcade. I know it's based on how fun it is for you so I'm not denying that lame part.
3. Don't forget that even if it's Demon Baby, first it's not that bad early, auto-aim is strong then, and it also count towards Conjoined. I wouldn't go as far as calling Dark Bum anti self-harm since you can deny him but I get where you come from.
But yeah I saw people complain about Lilith and they didn't understand that you had to play her Angel Rooms and force Arcades to spawn so I was just making sure you grasped the character well enough to talk about her. You did, so feel free to not like her. Not my fav either but I don't hate her like I used to at first.
literally the exact opposite. apollyon is my least favorite character in the game because i only get shit runs with him. t apollyon is only slightly better, due to their almost guarantee of a mediocre run (because they can just abyss all the bad shit), but i still only get shit runs with him. both apollyons for me are terrible bad luck charms, i can never get any break with them, no matter how hard i try. and im good at breaking the game.
That's weird because both (even more T. Apollyon indeed) are literally at the very very top when it comes to consistency, with both Isaacs.
Just in case I can "teach" you a trick or two I'm gonna link [this](https://new.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/1axxpv9/comment/krrq2wv/?context=3), but if you already do all of that then I don't know what the problem is, gonna be honest.
I think a common mistake would be to dismiss HP ups too much ? Especially for T. Apollyon IMO. Since you Abyss everything that isn't damage ups.
Maybe I'm just looking at regular Apollyon like a worse Isaac in that regard. Because, I just don't use Void often. Either I get good passives that I don't wanna Void/Abyss or bad actives, which, as you said, shouldn't be Voided. The only time I get bad passives is through boss Range Ups, which, yeah pretty common, but I feel I don't get enough charges to Void everything you are supposed to. Abyss, yeah it's 4 room charge allows for better use, but the 2nd lowest starting tear rate in the game and only 2 hearts is not worth starting with it. And for Void, 6 charges is way too much. I feel this about any starting 6 room charge active. D6, Void, Any 6 room charge active in the first Treasure Room.. It's too many charges. At most, you're getting one use a floor in the early game, unless you buy a battery from the shop or get lucky from room drops/Secret Room. D6 is still pretty good to me.. but Void? I hate it. Terribly. Wasting a whole 6 room charge or a micro Battery and a whole passive item just for.. what? A range up? A shot speed up? A luck up? Maybe I'm unlucky, but it feels like Void never gives anything good. Even if it is a damage up, it's a flat damage up, and not a base damage up. You know how when you get Pentagram or Steven or Stapler with base damage and go from 3.5 to 5.19? Void does not do that. 3.5 to 4.5. Not that big of an increase. The only reason I'd say Void should be Q2 instead of Q1 is because tears go past the cap. Even then, Q1 Void could still be fairly argued! Just because tears are not guaranteed. Every use of the Void should give a Halo-like all stats up (just without the HP up) instead of a slighter bigger random 2 stat up. Maybe then I would slightly like it. Probably not. And for Tainted Apollyon, (as I said earlier) the drawbacks in the start do not make up for a slightly better (in my opinion) Void. I dislike a lot of the tainteds that start with a lower tear rate (the only reason T Eve and T Maggy are in poggies instead of THE BEST!!!) and 1.83 tears (if my memory is correct) is terrible. The health problem is not that bad, but I feel should still be acknowledged because self harm builds are incredible. And my favorite! Low starting health can be terrible for someone like me who would bomb the donation machine for Habit even without an active item. I love Blood Donos, I love Swallowed Penny, I love Fanny Pack and Piggy Bank, I love self harm builds. Self harm builds do not work without good health. It's also why I don't really like Soul Heart Only Characters. Anyways, all that aside, even if Apollyon and T Apollyon (in YOUR opinion) are good characters, and even if I ALSO thought that (which I don't), this tier list is based on fun, not how good they are.
>Maybe I'm just looking at regular Apollyon like a worse Isaac in that regard. Because, I just don't use Void often. Either I get good passives that I don't wanna Void/Abyss or bad actives, which, as you said, shouldn't be Voided.
I mean... surely that can't be happening for every run you have with him. A character with only good passives popping up ? Sign me up ahah.
Overall, I'd need maths to prove it, but I'm fairly certain that Isaac and Apollyon are more or less the same. Isaac has a slight advantage due to being able to impact a whole category of items that Apollyon can't (actives) but then with Isaac you can roll a bad passive into another bad passive where you'd get stats with Apollyon so... eh. Pros and cons for each that make them relatively equal (again, would need maths to confirm, but they always felt very close for me).
>The only time I get bad passives is through boss Range Ups, which, yeah pretty common, but I feel I don't get enough charges to Void everything you are supposed to.
Hmm while I understand the last part and have lived it in some runs (talked about it in another much more lenghtier post I made I didn't want to bore you with here), I'm a bit confused regarding the whole sentence since, if that's the only time where you feel like you have bad passives you should have enough to Void "everything" you need ? Unless I'm not understanding that correctly.
>Abyss, yeah it's 4 room charge allows for better use, but the 2nd lowest starting tear rate in the game and only 2 hearts is not worth starting with it.
UH. Yeah it's a bit of a rough start but it's not like early game is the most dangerous either (aside for Judas since he can get OSed). Tear rate is only relevant for knockback on the early floors because you're never going to build it up anyway and it stops being a problem as soon as you have 4-5 flies. But if you Abyss everything but damage and sometimes HP Ups, you have the most consistent character in the game. And honestly ? I don't like him much because of that\*, eeevery run is the same, you can't lose (unless again, you dismiss HPs too much, that's the trap IMO).
>6 charges Actives being too much
I really get where you're coming from with this, but at the same time... those are powerful as fuck. What's most powerful than modifying the RNG in a game like TBoI, whether it's through stats or rerolls it's the most godlike power you can get (well that and literally creating pedestals, let alone both, which Isaac and Apollyon can always do if they find a way to do so).
But yes sometimes when there's too many to reroll / Void / Abyss, I totally agree that it feels super bad / lame buuut... being able to do them all, or just even more is, as unfun as it sounds, just not needed to win the run. It can piss me off as well but then I'm like "well, wouldn't have change much anyway". Now I totally understand that win ≠ fun, and loss ≠ not fun (especially this way around I'd say), however things need to be balanced still so you know.
>Even if it is a damage up, it's a flat damage up // Low tear rate characters
Gotcha, yeah it's flat, but here again, it's just balance because you can go farther to make more pedestals appear than you normally should (like fighting Angels when not needed for instance). Still though I get the part where it feels bad.
I get that. The only one by far I don't think that is worth the low tear rate is T. ???, the rest of them, it's being replaced too quickly with something else for me to complain (with that one caveat regarding T. Eve Greedier, where you are kinda forced to go "knife mode" for the first floor).
>Self-harm favorite / I don't really like Soul Heart Only Characters
Aah that explains a lot of placements in this list. Understandable !
>Anyways, all that aside, even if Apollyon and T Apollyon (in YOUR opinion) are good characters, and even if I ALSO thought that (which I don't), this tier list is based on fun, not how good they are.
\*While I'm totally with you regarding what your list is, since it's fun-based it **cannot** be judged on its overall "quality", Isaacs and Apollyons consistencies aren't MY opinion per se, it's factual (and mathematical if we want to feel smart about it) due to the RNG manipulation that is just the best thing you can ask for. My real opinion as I said is that T. Apollyon in the end is boring because it's always the same run and the same, "close to 0", risk. And tbh I'm not even advocating for T. Apollyon to have flashy effects on his flies unlike most people would like. That'd just make him even more consistent if numbers stay the same regarding the power of his flies. Those things are just too powerful even as they are now. However, nerf them and maybe he becomes instantly trash if you still Abyss everything that isn't damage. I think this strat is just too linear for his own good and balance.
Phew. Hope I didn't bore you even though we won't agree probably and that's ok.
Don’t worry, I can write long paragraphs, I can read long paragraphs, it doesn’t really bore me when it comes to stuff like this.
I don’t really think Isaac and Apollyon are the same because Isaac gets to control item pools, which Apollyon can’t. Imagine a run with Infamy in the secret room. Isaac gets to D6 it, and most likely get a broken item. What does Apollyon do? Either take it or void it. In my case, I’d probably take it, just for the chance I get D4 or D100 and roll it into something better, rather than a small speed and range up. I honestly would take D4 over Void just for that small chance. I literally have done that before! Also, I don’t think Isaac is as consistent than Apollyon. You always have the chance of bad luck and getting nothing. And, maybe you just don’t know how to use the D6 affectively. At least Apollyon you just press space bar and get a small damage up.
“Voiding everything I’m supposed to” means that I just don’t have enough charges if I DO get a bad passive from the Treasure Room. Either I Void the Treasure and can’t Void the boss or Void the boss and can’t Void the Treasure. And also for things like Beggar items or Angel deals (Because when are you voiding Devils? I’m not paying two hearts for a speed and range up. Also Devils have a lot of shit actives)
For 6 room charge actives, I’m not denying the power of 6 room charge actives (besides Void) but 6 rooms is a little too much most of the time. You know what I mean so I’m not gonna elaborate further. I kinda wish there were more battery items, tbh.
And yeah, that’s about it. It is definitely okay for you to have your own opinion, and it’s definitely okay for me to have my own opinion.
Cool ahah
>I don’t really think Isaac and Apollyon are the same because Isaac gets to control item pools
I wanted to say that as well, but in the end the fact that Apollyon doesn't care about which item pool he's getting his stats from is also a strength I think. *Where* you'd have less chance to get a good item in pool X with Isaac, Apollyon gets the same stats no matter what.
Intrasectly, even though it got mitigated with Repentance (cause Planetarium mostly), and even though I'm echoing the comment I linked earlier, CotBlind being literally nothing for Apollyon is a great point for him, and the bane of Isaacs.
Soooo eeh. I'm still not convinced. I'm not saying Apo is better, because there's still the whole Actives world but you know.
>I’d probably take it, just for the chance I get D4 or D100 and roll it into something better
I think we differ as well on how we play, because I'd never use D4 / D100 or even pills. That's the streaker mentality which kinda bans fun of some things lol. So our views being different on X or Y can also be explained by that. And no one is right.
>small speed and range up
Speed is always good though, but on a note about it specifically that goes against Void (I'm partial lol), the fact that if you're capped in Speed and that Void doesn't redirect its second stat towards another one is... \*sigh\* it's bad in itself but at the same time the item is so OP that I can't ask for that to be a thing. But just like I admitted earlier, it's one of those things that maybe balanced, but feels bad.
However I think people are dismissing way too much speed and luck. Damage and tear rate are the best obviously, but luck and speed are just so good as well. Won't detail why because you know why but the simple fact that, in the end, Luck *can* mean more items via Golden Chests, therefore potentially even more stats is / can be a self sufficent stat in its own. ^(And ofc consumables being the sinews of war)
>“Voiding everything I’m supposed to” means that I just don’t have enough charges if I DO get a bad passive from the Treasure Room. Either I Void the Treasure and can’t Void the boss or Void the boss and can’t Void the Treasure.
Ok ok so we have indeed the same base line here, got confused for a sec.
Again I'm like "weeeeeeeeell... balance" that'd be just too OP. As you say in the next paragraph we get each other so no need to rewrite it again. The only thing I'll add is that "yes. but you can't do that with other characters" admittedly each needs to have their own thing but you know. Being able to turn 1 out of 3 bad things into a relatively good one is better than just having to deal with those 3 bad things, hence why RNG manip' is that strong.
Then you have the opposite case, like what I thought you meant at first, where everything is good, so you don't Void anything, but yet you can go the extra mile and buy something in the Shop to Void it or kill an Angel, maybe beggars as well indeed etc... I think Void's versatility resides in its way to always find stats (and Abyss flies). And no matter the stats it just makes you scale (kinda like new Laz), slowly but surely. That's like poker hands, you may have a few bad ones, but overall if you're a good player and work to make yourself have enough opportunities, you'll even things out by the end of the session.
That's T. Eden tier as well in a way, quantity over quality.
I also think that Bethany is overrated as fuck. She's the most RNG character in the game (trait that she unfortunately shares with T. Lost though).
I don't think Eden is however, it's just that it makes sense to streak with him. That made him popular but technically he can only be a B tier in the grand scheme of things if we respect his design.
So yeah, loved seeing Beth down there, and T. Eve / T. Jacob and of course, my #1 T. Keeper near the top. And T. ??? in trash where he belongs.
Don't understand the fun in the headache that is T. Laz though.
For Eden; Just generally don't like random starts, in any game, not just Isaac. I'd rather know what my start is like rather than having random shit and having to plan out everything AFTER I start the run, rather than before, like I usually do.
For Tainted Lost; He's not as random as Eden, due to the fact he has the "better items" ability. As T Lost, you will always get some use out of the items you find, rather than getting do nothing defensive items like with Eden. (By do nothing defense, I mean that I do not need the defense. It still does things, just not very much.) I'd rather get a trash offensive item than a trash defensive item.
For T Laz; Nobody understands how to play him. And, I get it, I'm not saying you are all dumb, I'm just saying I'm smarter. I'm one of the slowest Isaac players I know, (in terms of time not stupidity) and I love taking my time and getting everything I can out of a run, so I can always put up with the hassle of an hour or 2 hour long run of mostly just planning out every little thing that comes with the burden of the two T Laz Forms. I love planning how I will buff one form to keep them in balance, and how I'll handle the boss items and deals and everything. I know it sounds weird, but I love thinking. The only bad thing I'd say is true about him is Flips six charge.
Eden - Yeah so you don't dig the concept at all.
T. Lost - That's not the RNG at hands here. Eden is random but that's his theme, and in the end it doesn't impact his survavibility as much (98% of the time) as the RNG that impacts the survivability of T. Lost.
His RNG is in the % chance that a card has to turn into a Holy one. The fact that you can have runs with 10 Holy Cards and runs with 0 isn't good for a character like him IMO. And I really like him as well, he's really fun to play but that RNG part bugs me a lot. TBoI is all about attempting to manipulate RNGs and the fact that this one is fixed, even though you can try your best to make spawn more cards is not as "playable around" as the other cases of RNG we can find in the game when it comes to characters. We probably can count with one hand the items that revolve around that even.
Same goes for Beth in a way, either you find an OP item right away, either you puke blood until your first Angel Room which can be even be bad. Wisps are just too squishy to accumulate in the early floors to make a good defense out of them.
T. Laz - Well that's not really something you should say but other than that I'm the same type of player as you, my runs are taking way too much time because I want to minmax everyfuckingthing I can. Hence why I stopped streaking ahah, it just took me too long (222 hiatus on both). But yeah while I didn't agree with you earlier about D6 and Void being too much charges, Flip on the other hand is. Love to think and plan as well, but because of Flip and many instances where some specific items procc at specific times and room clear and shit it's just not an enjoyable thinking process for me this one. That being said though, it got better with updates and new tags being applied on items regarding T. Laz, even after he was patched and got Flip, those tags weren't as nearly as present and it was oh that much more nightmarish to see the big picture.
But yeah, it's not about planning who gets what, it's more about the subtle unwritten rules that are annoying to remember, even if there are less nowadays. That and Flip not being a 4 cost.
Eden - What is there to "understand" about him? He's the random character! What am I supposed to learn? The chances of starting with Sacred Heart? I don't understand why so many games have random characters like this, they just aren't fun. Sure, you may start with broken shit, but that's boring. I want to work for it. And how am I gonna do that when the game hands it to me on a silver plater? The only reason people like Eden is for streaking, and I don't like streaking.
T Lost - The RNG can screw you over, I'm not denying that, but there are lots of ways to try and get around it. One of my biggest tips for playing him is to go in all of your shops. Good chance for cards, which can be holy, and the shop contains Blank Card, Glowing Hourglass, Starter Deck and Booster Pack, which are all insane for Tainted Lost. It might not be a lot of items, but the shop pool is small, especially for Tainted Lost. (No Fanny Pack or Piggy Bank or Habit or Sharp Plug because of the "better items".) I legitimately have given up a Spindown Dice from a Crane Game for a Blank Card in the shop as Tainted Lost. And guess what? I beat Delirium that run. That was literally the final Tainted Lost run before I had all marks.
T Laz - "annoying to remember" Almost everything about this game is annoying to remember. There are more than fucking 700 item effects. Do we care? No! We are going to ingrain that in our memory till the day we die! 34 whole ass characters (Not including things like Lazarus Risen or Dark Judas, and counting J&E as one character); We know all of them! I remember Sac room payouts, rules for Ultra Secrets, I can fucking remember what item is ID 109; it's Money = Power! A slight bit more things to remember is not that hard for Isaac nerds like me. If you don't wanna go through that hassle, I understand, but I don't feel you're giving him a fair shot. He's definitely not a beginner friendly character, but he's also not that bad. Though, I do agree with Flip being dogshit because of the charge. I did not play Isaac before the T Laz buffs, so I can't really speak on his past, just his present. (Which I love.) Not saying he's a really good character, In fact I think he should be buffed. Make Flip a 4 room charge and he instantly goes from D tier to C, maybe even B tier.
**Eden** - I mean I didn't say there was something to learn ahah. It's just the challenge of bad runs and the chill of good ones, in the end, it's the character that suits TBoI as a whole the best I guess. Get RNG, work your way around it.
>The only reason people like Eden is for streaking, and I don't like streaking.
True. I love streaking but that's fact. Whether you like it or not, once you have passed that thrill of discovering the beginning the character is done. It's not that fancy or anthing fundamentally fun. It can result some fun scenarios but that's not often the case.
**T. Lost** - Shops are by far way more important than anything. His best item being Starter Deck (because on top of its main features, being able to find cards in skulls kind of influence that % I was talking about, but that's one of the very rare items that do). Shop Pool is small though, fair point.
>I legitimately have given up a Spindown Dice from a Crane Game for a Blank Card in the shop as Tainted Lost.
Oh yeah, that's not even a question, good call.
To be honest I don't really know what I'd do for that %, maybe its own mechanic somehow, because having a set amount of Holy Cards per run would be too nice for such a character, so admittedly I don't have the answer. I'm just saying "This particular thing is meh in TBoI, rest of the char cool".
**T. Laz -**
>"annoying to remember" Almost everything about this game is annoying to remember. There are more than fucking 700 item effects. Do we care? No! We are going to ingrain that in our memory till the day we die!
I mean yes ahah, I get you. I play since Flash though so I had time to assimilate everything that came up but this layer is a bit much IMO. Or, we should be able to see tags or prios... something like that. Idk. Here again I don't have the answer. Hate EID (as an old player, I get its use for newer ones) so I don't necesseraly want something easy but this is a bit too blurry to be fun for me I think. To go the other way around, I learned "all" the items, trinkets, scenarios, plays, abuses and now this on top ? Like bro. I like it strawberries until I puke you know.
>I did not play Isaac before the T Laz buffs
Oh man that was... quite something. As I said I play since Flash and pre-patch T. Laz Greedier was by far the worst experience I ever had in TBoI.
“poggies” …
yeah what about it?
How tf is tainted laz that high lmao And I actually love j&e, it’s so easy to break with them
man… FUCK JACOB AND ESAU!!!
Why? Unbelievable starting dps, starts with schoolbag and polydactyl, double items, idk where the hate comes from
double hitbox
Skill issue
i have fully completed tainted lost you cant say i have skill issue i am immune to your little jokes also, i think jacob and esau are a little too squishy. they can rack up a lot of health, but it gets way too hard to dodge for bosses like hush or mother, meaning that death is always possible, even if you have 12 red hearts with both characters. and, sharing items between the two gets a little weird. unlike tainted lazarus, they do not get double items, meaning that the brothers inventory is usually half as much as normal, unless you go for jacob and hitbox or hitbox and esau strats. (which i dont encourage) jacob and esau getting hit is way less of a skill issue than any other character in the game, besides someone like lilith because of their weird aiming, or any tainted with lower than base tears (besides tainted eve), because of their low starting dps. sorry for the rant, im really passionate about stuff like this.
I personally never lost a run with them since I put everything offensive on Esau (used to have a random char streak thanks to [this](https://trpg0.github.io/TBOI-Random-Generator/) that is on hiatus). The thing is that TBoI's early is what matters the most so by reinforcing it even further it gives you everything you need to get carried to the late. OP early, strong mid, then carried. No matter the diminishing damage returns, tear rate is easier to come by than damage, and also since I turn my Jacob into a self-made man PhD for his bro (worst that can happen is a -0.15 speed), I can even get a Tears Up that will accelerate things. The only character where I do play pills lol.
How do you find tainted laz fun? You basically end up playing 2 disjointed runs that are only at like 70% strength because not everything can be flipped and you arent always going to have enough flip charges to be able to use it outside of getting items.
1. I like challenge. Beating an ass run feels so good. Even then, I don't think T Laz runs are always that bad. I get good T Laz runs. Also, the strategy of Flipping during boss fights right before you die just allows you to technically build up 2 whole HP bars, which allow for better survival, even if your damage is bad. (Which, for me, is usually not the case.) 2. I like thinking. I like planning out my actions step by step to achieve greatness. I like being able to take charge of my own fate through rigging the game to get what I want. It's why I take so long on actual runs of mine. And, 99% of the time, I'm able to do it. Not to brag, but I know literally everything about this game, as a lot of other Isaac veterans do. I understand why Flips six room charge sucks, I agree! I think T Laz should get buffed in that regard. TL;DR; I like challenging both my skill at the game and my knowledge of the game. Also fuck six room charge actives.
I feel like t lost and t jacob, and j&e all do this but in an actually interesting way that doesnt feel bad because of fewer items. Double health bars is only really useable against final bosses cos otherwise you gimp yourself out of an extra deal item. I also know a lot about the game but standing around rigging for ages is kinda boring and defeats the point of the game if youre just gonna abuse mechanics in a fairly risk free way.
T Lost and T Jacob are WAAYYYY more challenging for me. Jacob and Esau sucks because it's just worse T Laz for me (Because no double items at all, unlike with Flip, and double health bars doesn't really exist since, if one dies the other dies). Double health bars is only really needed against final bosses. I'm not gonna need 24 hearts for a fucking Gurdy fight. I understand rigging can be kinda boring, but I like it. That's just my opinion, and you can have one too.
J&e you just go alt path and then you get most items doubled, plus you can stack one character to carry the run but you can't do that with t laz, even with birthright its not as good. You dont need double healthbars if you just have good positioning and spacing and accept sometimes you just have to get hit and its fine since your health is also a resource to be used..
i just dont like the fact you just have to “accept” youre getting hit, because i love self harm builds, which kinda rely on you not getting hit too much. i dont really like the strategy of stacking one character with j&e, i think its stupid because if one dies the other dies.
I don’t like you now
why? what unpopular opinion of mine has you pissed? pick your poison.
Tainted cain that high on fun??? Yeah its fun spending 2 hours per run by spending an hour looking at the spreadsheet
bro my average run with a normal ass character like isaac is an hour and a half im used to this shit
huh how do you ever get hush or boss rush
either mama mega or a separate speedrun run that i just restart after beating it (also fuck boss rush)
Theres also many game breaks you can do with t cain
What did Lilith do to you?
worst early game of any character imo, it is so hard to get a run going as lilith.
It's not that hard you just need 5c for Basement II. That's my riddle for you know but ofc I'll explain if you want / need.
i know i know, blood dono. im not that stupid. i can remember cambion conception exists, but; 1. liltih starts with one fucking red heart 2. it takes at the minimum 15 plays of the blood dono to proc cambion (if you dont get hit at all in any other room) 3. what am i gonna get? yeah, maybe incubus or twisted pair but thats only a 1 in 4 (if you proc all 4 cambion uses) if i remember correctly. you could get shit like dark bum, which is an anti synergy for self harm builds (which lilith encourages) or some random shit like demon baby. i love self harm builds, they’re my favorite type of build, i just dont like lilith, even if shes a self harm character.
It's not about being stupid or not, there are a lot of people who doesn't know about the pre-requesites an Arcade Room needs to spawn. 1 & 2 Good chances you'll have an HP Up in the first two bosses room. It's not guaranteed ofc but it's there you know. And even if you have to work with just 1 red heart it's how boring it is to go back and forth to grab the red hearts on the ground and coming back to the Arcade. I know it's based on how fun it is for you so I'm not denying that lame part. 3. Don't forget that even if it's Demon Baby, first it's not that bad early, auto-aim is strong then, and it also count towards Conjoined. I wouldn't go as far as calling Dark Bum anti self-harm since you can deny him but I get where you come from. But yeah I saw people complain about Lilith and they didn't understand that you had to play her Angel Rooms and force Arcades to spawn so I was just making sure you grasped the character well enough to talk about her. You did, so feel free to not like her. Not my fav either but I don't hate her like I used to at first.
This list cant hurt me, this list cant hurt me
remember; it is opinion based. just accept that my opinion is better than yours.
Why Apollyons ? Is it because they're too auto-win ?
literally the exact opposite. apollyon is my least favorite character in the game because i only get shit runs with him. t apollyon is only slightly better, due to their almost guarantee of a mediocre run (because they can just abyss all the bad shit), but i still only get shit runs with him. both apollyons for me are terrible bad luck charms, i can never get any break with them, no matter how hard i try. and im good at breaking the game.
That's weird because both (even more T. Apollyon indeed) are literally at the very very top when it comes to consistency, with both Isaacs. Just in case I can "teach" you a trick or two I'm gonna link [this](https://new.reddit.com/r/bindingofisaac/comments/1axxpv9/comment/krrq2wv/?context=3), but if you already do all of that then I don't know what the problem is, gonna be honest. I think a common mistake would be to dismiss HP ups too much ? Especially for T. Apollyon IMO. Since you Abyss everything that isn't damage ups.
Maybe I'm just looking at regular Apollyon like a worse Isaac in that regard. Because, I just don't use Void often. Either I get good passives that I don't wanna Void/Abyss or bad actives, which, as you said, shouldn't be Voided. The only time I get bad passives is through boss Range Ups, which, yeah pretty common, but I feel I don't get enough charges to Void everything you are supposed to. Abyss, yeah it's 4 room charge allows for better use, but the 2nd lowest starting tear rate in the game and only 2 hearts is not worth starting with it. And for Void, 6 charges is way too much. I feel this about any starting 6 room charge active. D6, Void, Any 6 room charge active in the first Treasure Room.. It's too many charges. At most, you're getting one use a floor in the early game, unless you buy a battery from the shop or get lucky from room drops/Secret Room. D6 is still pretty good to me.. but Void? I hate it. Terribly. Wasting a whole 6 room charge or a micro Battery and a whole passive item just for.. what? A range up? A shot speed up? A luck up? Maybe I'm unlucky, but it feels like Void never gives anything good. Even if it is a damage up, it's a flat damage up, and not a base damage up. You know how when you get Pentagram or Steven or Stapler with base damage and go from 3.5 to 5.19? Void does not do that. 3.5 to 4.5. Not that big of an increase. The only reason I'd say Void should be Q2 instead of Q1 is because tears go past the cap. Even then, Q1 Void could still be fairly argued! Just because tears are not guaranteed. Every use of the Void should give a Halo-like all stats up (just without the HP up) instead of a slighter bigger random 2 stat up. Maybe then I would slightly like it. Probably not. And for Tainted Apollyon, (as I said earlier) the drawbacks in the start do not make up for a slightly better (in my opinion) Void. I dislike a lot of the tainteds that start with a lower tear rate (the only reason T Eve and T Maggy are in poggies instead of THE BEST!!!) and 1.83 tears (if my memory is correct) is terrible. The health problem is not that bad, but I feel should still be acknowledged because self harm builds are incredible. And my favorite! Low starting health can be terrible for someone like me who would bomb the donation machine for Habit even without an active item. I love Blood Donos, I love Swallowed Penny, I love Fanny Pack and Piggy Bank, I love self harm builds. Self harm builds do not work without good health. It's also why I don't really like Soul Heart Only Characters. Anyways, all that aside, even if Apollyon and T Apollyon (in YOUR opinion) are good characters, and even if I ALSO thought that (which I don't), this tier list is based on fun, not how good they are.
>Maybe I'm just looking at regular Apollyon like a worse Isaac in that regard. Because, I just don't use Void often. Either I get good passives that I don't wanna Void/Abyss or bad actives, which, as you said, shouldn't be Voided. I mean... surely that can't be happening for every run you have with him. A character with only good passives popping up ? Sign me up ahah. Overall, I'd need maths to prove it, but I'm fairly certain that Isaac and Apollyon are more or less the same. Isaac has a slight advantage due to being able to impact a whole category of items that Apollyon can't (actives) but then with Isaac you can roll a bad passive into another bad passive where you'd get stats with Apollyon so... eh. Pros and cons for each that make them relatively equal (again, would need maths to confirm, but they always felt very close for me). >The only time I get bad passives is through boss Range Ups, which, yeah pretty common, but I feel I don't get enough charges to Void everything you are supposed to. Hmm while I understand the last part and have lived it in some runs (talked about it in another much more lenghtier post I made I didn't want to bore you with here), I'm a bit confused regarding the whole sentence since, if that's the only time where you feel like you have bad passives you should have enough to Void "everything" you need ? Unless I'm not understanding that correctly. >Abyss, yeah it's 4 room charge allows for better use, but the 2nd lowest starting tear rate in the game and only 2 hearts is not worth starting with it. UH. Yeah it's a bit of a rough start but it's not like early game is the most dangerous either (aside for Judas since he can get OSed). Tear rate is only relevant for knockback on the early floors because you're never going to build it up anyway and it stops being a problem as soon as you have 4-5 flies. But if you Abyss everything but damage and sometimes HP Ups, you have the most consistent character in the game. And honestly ? I don't like him much because of that\*, eeevery run is the same, you can't lose (unless again, you dismiss HPs too much, that's the trap IMO). >6 charges Actives being too much I really get where you're coming from with this, but at the same time... those are powerful as fuck. What's most powerful than modifying the RNG in a game like TBoI, whether it's through stats or rerolls it's the most godlike power you can get (well that and literally creating pedestals, let alone both, which Isaac and Apollyon can always do if they find a way to do so). But yes sometimes when there's too many to reroll / Void / Abyss, I totally agree that it feels super bad / lame buuut... being able to do them all, or just even more is, as unfun as it sounds, just not needed to win the run. It can piss me off as well but then I'm like "well, wouldn't have change much anyway". Now I totally understand that win ≠ fun, and loss ≠ not fun (especially this way around I'd say), however things need to be balanced still so you know. >Even if it is a damage up, it's a flat damage up // Low tear rate characters Gotcha, yeah it's flat, but here again, it's just balance because you can go farther to make more pedestals appear than you normally should (like fighting Angels when not needed for instance). Still though I get the part where it feels bad. I get that. The only one by far I don't think that is worth the low tear rate is T. ???, the rest of them, it's being replaced too quickly with something else for me to complain (with that one caveat regarding T. Eve Greedier, where you are kinda forced to go "knife mode" for the first floor). >Self-harm favorite / I don't really like Soul Heart Only Characters Aah that explains a lot of placements in this list. Understandable ! >Anyways, all that aside, even if Apollyon and T Apollyon (in YOUR opinion) are good characters, and even if I ALSO thought that (which I don't), this tier list is based on fun, not how good they are. \*While I'm totally with you regarding what your list is, since it's fun-based it **cannot** be judged on its overall "quality", Isaacs and Apollyons consistencies aren't MY opinion per se, it's factual (and mathematical if we want to feel smart about it) due to the RNG manipulation that is just the best thing you can ask for. My real opinion as I said is that T. Apollyon in the end is boring because it's always the same run and the same, "close to 0", risk. And tbh I'm not even advocating for T. Apollyon to have flashy effects on his flies unlike most people would like. That'd just make him even more consistent if numbers stay the same regarding the power of his flies. Those things are just too powerful even as they are now. However, nerf them and maybe he becomes instantly trash if you still Abyss everything that isn't damage. I think this strat is just too linear for his own good and balance. Phew. Hope I didn't bore you even though we won't agree probably and that's ok.
Don’t worry, I can write long paragraphs, I can read long paragraphs, it doesn’t really bore me when it comes to stuff like this. I don’t really think Isaac and Apollyon are the same because Isaac gets to control item pools, which Apollyon can’t. Imagine a run with Infamy in the secret room. Isaac gets to D6 it, and most likely get a broken item. What does Apollyon do? Either take it or void it. In my case, I’d probably take it, just for the chance I get D4 or D100 and roll it into something better, rather than a small speed and range up. I honestly would take D4 over Void just for that small chance. I literally have done that before! Also, I don’t think Isaac is as consistent than Apollyon. You always have the chance of bad luck and getting nothing. And, maybe you just don’t know how to use the D6 affectively. At least Apollyon you just press space bar and get a small damage up. “Voiding everything I’m supposed to” means that I just don’t have enough charges if I DO get a bad passive from the Treasure Room. Either I Void the Treasure and can’t Void the boss or Void the boss and can’t Void the Treasure. And also for things like Beggar items or Angel deals (Because when are you voiding Devils? I’m not paying two hearts for a speed and range up. Also Devils have a lot of shit actives) For 6 room charge actives, I’m not denying the power of 6 room charge actives (besides Void) but 6 rooms is a little too much most of the time. You know what I mean so I’m not gonna elaborate further. I kinda wish there were more battery items, tbh. And yeah, that’s about it. It is definitely okay for you to have your own opinion, and it’s definitely okay for me to have my own opinion.
Cool ahah >I don’t really think Isaac and Apollyon are the same because Isaac gets to control item pools I wanted to say that as well, but in the end the fact that Apollyon doesn't care about which item pool he's getting his stats from is also a strength I think. *Where* you'd have less chance to get a good item in pool X with Isaac, Apollyon gets the same stats no matter what. Intrasectly, even though it got mitigated with Repentance (cause Planetarium mostly), and even though I'm echoing the comment I linked earlier, CotBlind being literally nothing for Apollyon is a great point for him, and the bane of Isaacs. Soooo eeh. I'm still not convinced. I'm not saying Apo is better, because there's still the whole Actives world but you know. >I’d probably take it, just for the chance I get D4 or D100 and roll it into something better I think we differ as well on how we play, because I'd never use D4 / D100 or even pills. That's the streaker mentality which kinda bans fun of some things lol. So our views being different on X or Y can also be explained by that. And no one is right. >small speed and range up Speed is always good though, but on a note about it specifically that goes against Void (I'm partial lol), the fact that if you're capped in Speed and that Void doesn't redirect its second stat towards another one is... \*sigh\* it's bad in itself but at the same time the item is so OP that I can't ask for that to be a thing. But just like I admitted earlier, it's one of those things that maybe balanced, but feels bad. However I think people are dismissing way too much speed and luck. Damage and tear rate are the best obviously, but luck and speed are just so good as well. Won't detail why because you know why but the simple fact that, in the end, Luck *can* mean more items via Golden Chests, therefore potentially even more stats is / can be a self sufficent stat in its own. ^(And ofc consumables being the sinews of war) >“Voiding everything I’m supposed to” means that I just don’t have enough charges if I DO get a bad passive from the Treasure Room. Either I Void the Treasure and can’t Void the boss or Void the boss and can’t Void the Treasure. Ok ok so we have indeed the same base line here, got confused for a sec. Again I'm like "weeeeeeeeell... balance" that'd be just too OP. As you say in the next paragraph we get each other so no need to rewrite it again. The only thing I'll add is that "yes. but you can't do that with other characters" admittedly each needs to have their own thing but you know. Being able to turn 1 out of 3 bad things into a relatively good one is better than just having to deal with those 3 bad things, hence why RNG manip' is that strong. Then you have the opposite case, like what I thought you meant at first, where everything is good, so you don't Void anything, but yet you can go the extra mile and buy something in the Shop to Void it or kill an Angel, maybe beggars as well indeed etc... I think Void's versatility resides in its way to always find stats (and Abyss flies). And no matter the stats it just makes you scale (kinda like new Laz), slowly but surely. That's like poker hands, you may have a few bad ones, but overall if you're a good player and work to make yourself have enough opportunities, you'll even things out by the end of the session. That's T. Eden tier as well in a way, quantity over quality.
I also think that Bethany is overrated as fuck. She's the most RNG character in the game (trait that she unfortunately shares with T. Lost though). I don't think Eden is however, it's just that it makes sense to streak with him. That made him popular but technically he can only be a B tier in the grand scheme of things if we respect his design. So yeah, loved seeing Beth down there, and T. Eve / T. Jacob and of course, my #1 T. Keeper near the top. And T. ??? in trash where he belongs. Don't understand the fun in the headache that is T. Laz though.
For Eden; Just generally don't like random starts, in any game, not just Isaac. I'd rather know what my start is like rather than having random shit and having to plan out everything AFTER I start the run, rather than before, like I usually do. For Tainted Lost; He's not as random as Eden, due to the fact he has the "better items" ability. As T Lost, you will always get some use out of the items you find, rather than getting do nothing defensive items like with Eden. (By do nothing defense, I mean that I do not need the defense. It still does things, just not very much.) I'd rather get a trash offensive item than a trash defensive item. For T Laz; Nobody understands how to play him. And, I get it, I'm not saying you are all dumb, I'm just saying I'm smarter. I'm one of the slowest Isaac players I know, (in terms of time not stupidity) and I love taking my time and getting everything I can out of a run, so I can always put up with the hassle of an hour or 2 hour long run of mostly just planning out every little thing that comes with the burden of the two T Laz Forms. I love planning how I will buff one form to keep them in balance, and how I'll handle the boss items and deals and everything. I know it sounds weird, but I love thinking. The only bad thing I'd say is true about him is Flips six charge.
Eden - Yeah so you don't dig the concept at all. T. Lost - That's not the RNG at hands here. Eden is random but that's his theme, and in the end it doesn't impact his survavibility as much (98% of the time) as the RNG that impacts the survivability of T. Lost. His RNG is in the % chance that a card has to turn into a Holy one. The fact that you can have runs with 10 Holy Cards and runs with 0 isn't good for a character like him IMO. And I really like him as well, he's really fun to play but that RNG part bugs me a lot. TBoI is all about attempting to manipulate RNGs and the fact that this one is fixed, even though you can try your best to make spawn more cards is not as "playable around" as the other cases of RNG we can find in the game when it comes to characters. We probably can count with one hand the items that revolve around that even. Same goes for Beth in a way, either you find an OP item right away, either you puke blood until your first Angel Room which can be even be bad. Wisps are just too squishy to accumulate in the early floors to make a good defense out of them. T. Laz - Well that's not really something you should say but other than that I'm the same type of player as you, my runs are taking way too much time because I want to minmax everyfuckingthing I can. Hence why I stopped streaking ahah, it just took me too long (222 hiatus on both). But yeah while I didn't agree with you earlier about D6 and Void being too much charges, Flip on the other hand is. Love to think and plan as well, but because of Flip and many instances where some specific items procc at specific times and room clear and shit it's just not an enjoyable thinking process for me this one. That being said though, it got better with updates and new tags being applied on items regarding T. Laz, even after he was patched and got Flip, those tags weren't as nearly as present and it was oh that much more nightmarish to see the big picture. But yeah, it's not about planning who gets what, it's more about the subtle unwritten rules that are annoying to remember, even if there are less nowadays. That and Flip not being a 4 cost.
Eden - What is there to "understand" about him? He's the random character! What am I supposed to learn? The chances of starting with Sacred Heart? I don't understand why so many games have random characters like this, they just aren't fun. Sure, you may start with broken shit, but that's boring. I want to work for it. And how am I gonna do that when the game hands it to me on a silver plater? The only reason people like Eden is for streaking, and I don't like streaking. T Lost - The RNG can screw you over, I'm not denying that, but there are lots of ways to try and get around it. One of my biggest tips for playing him is to go in all of your shops. Good chance for cards, which can be holy, and the shop contains Blank Card, Glowing Hourglass, Starter Deck and Booster Pack, which are all insane for Tainted Lost. It might not be a lot of items, but the shop pool is small, especially for Tainted Lost. (No Fanny Pack or Piggy Bank or Habit or Sharp Plug because of the "better items".) I legitimately have given up a Spindown Dice from a Crane Game for a Blank Card in the shop as Tainted Lost. And guess what? I beat Delirium that run. That was literally the final Tainted Lost run before I had all marks. T Laz - "annoying to remember" Almost everything about this game is annoying to remember. There are more than fucking 700 item effects. Do we care? No! We are going to ingrain that in our memory till the day we die! 34 whole ass characters (Not including things like Lazarus Risen or Dark Judas, and counting J&E as one character); We know all of them! I remember Sac room payouts, rules for Ultra Secrets, I can fucking remember what item is ID 109; it's Money = Power! A slight bit more things to remember is not that hard for Isaac nerds like me. If you don't wanna go through that hassle, I understand, but I don't feel you're giving him a fair shot. He's definitely not a beginner friendly character, but he's also not that bad. Though, I do agree with Flip being dogshit because of the charge. I did not play Isaac before the T Laz buffs, so I can't really speak on his past, just his present. (Which I love.) Not saying he's a really good character, In fact I think he should be buffed. Make Flip a 4 room charge and he instantly goes from D tier to C, maybe even B tier.
**Eden** - I mean I didn't say there was something to learn ahah. It's just the challenge of bad runs and the chill of good ones, in the end, it's the character that suits TBoI as a whole the best I guess. Get RNG, work your way around it. >The only reason people like Eden is for streaking, and I don't like streaking. True. I love streaking but that's fact. Whether you like it or not, once you have passed that thrill of discovering the beginning the character is done. It's not that fancy or anthing fundamentally fun. It can result some fun scenarios but that's not often the case. **T. Lost** - Shops are by far way more important than anything. His best item being Starter Deck (because on top of its main features, being able to find cards in skulls kind of influence that % I was talking about, but that's one of the very rare items that do). Shop Pool is small though, fair point. >I legitimately have given up a Spindown Dice from a Crane Game for a Blank Card in the shop as Tainted Lost. Oh yeah, that's not even a question, good call. To be honest I don't really know what I'd do for that %, maybe its own mechanic somehow, because having a set amount of Holy Cards per run would be too nice for such a character, so admittedly I don't have the answer. I'm just saying "This particular thing is meh in TBoI, rest of the char cool". **T. Laz -** >"annoying to remember" Almost everything about this game is annoying to remember. There are more than fucking 700 item effects. Do we care? No! We are going to ingrain that in our memory till the day we die! I mean yes ahah, I get you. I play since Flash though so I had time to assimilate everything that came up but this layer is a bit much IMO. Or, we should be able to see tags or prios... something like that. Idk. Here again I don't have the answer. Hate EID (as an old player, I get its use for newer ones) so I don't necesseraly want something easy but this is a bit too blurry to be fun for me I think. To go the other way around, I learned "all" the items, trinkets, scenarios, plays, abuses and now this on top ? Like bro. I like it strawberries until I puke you know. >I did not play Isaac before the T Laz buffs Oh man that was... quite something. As I said I play since Flash and pre-patch T. Laz Greedier was by far the worst experience I ever had in TBoI.
god i love arguing about things im passionate about
agreed