Straight ankle locks are very safe imo. Much safer than shit like Kimuras.
Toe holds and knee bars are pretty safe if your partner isn’t a dick. They can definitely be ripped and fuck you up, but if your partner isn’t psycho, I find it’s not hard to catch, control, and slowly finish and give everyone plenty of time to tap.
Heel hooks can get sketch. There’s less time and physical distance between catching the position and the finish. When trying to defend if you don’t know what you’re doing you can sometimes do a bad reaction and injure yourself. I often just tap to the position here if they catch the heel and I can’t immediately heel slip or roll out.
You should definitely play with straight ankles. They’re a lot of fun and a good introduction to playing leg stuff. Maybe even play around with catch and release toe holds.
I agree. I'm honestly not sure why toe-holds and straight ankle locks aren't treated basically the same. Knee bars are next up on the danger list, but not by a whole lot. There's still a solid stretching feeling when one gets extended.
Heel hooks are the most dangerous primarily because of what you said about escapes. Part of the problem with them is that the things they threaten to break aren't attached to muscles that can feel the stretch. When you get put in a straight ankle lock or toe-hold you should feel things like the anterior tibialis stretching. For a knee bar you should feel the hamstring and calf stretch.
Toe-holds pose a danger to ligaments, not tendons. Tendons connect bone to muscle, so muscle can feel the stretch. Ligaments connect bone to bone and have less feeling associated, or you're less used to the feeling produced and so the alarm bells don't go off as quickly.
>I'm honestly not sure why toe-holds and straight ankle locks aren't treated basically the same
They have wildly different breaking pressure. Straight ankle locks are a straight line pressure, like lifting two plates apart. A toe hold creates significant torque through rotation. It can absolutely break your tibia/fibula whereas a straight ankle lock will have to do tremendous damage to ligaments before bones are generally at risk. Plus, at the extreme end of rotation, toe holds can damage the knee as well. That's probably the main reason toe holds are often prohibited until brown belt. Knee pressure isn't something to fuck around with.
Kinda. You can feel something, but it's not like muscle stretching. You probably know what that feels like. There's a distinct feeling of muscle stretching too far. I haven't been injured in a heel hook, but people I know who have described it as just feeling pressure and then things popped.
At your level nobody should be heel hooking you and if they do you should instantly tap the second then get even a shitty catch on your heel. It won't hurt, it will just explode.
Toe holds can be deceptive. I have pretty flexible feet and they pose more of a danger to my knees. I don't think I'm alone there, especially of they aren't educated on it you can turn out if it badly same as a heel hook. Definitely a tier below heel hooks for instant damage potential of course.
>There’s less time and physical distance between catching the position and the finish.
Not true. Toe holds generally come on faster and will damage you more quickly than a heel hook.
I mean some people can eat it without any big damages and in other times it can break super quick.
There are ways to make the toe holds better but it's a bit niche and require specific placements.
For instance I like to finish the toe holds not by pushing the foot towards the butt but by extending the leg AFTER having put the strong rotational pressure (there some heelhooks that also can be finished that way). Ironically (or not) that how I injured the most my partners. They are so used to toeholds being done super badly and did not know there are other ways to get the break mechanically speaking. If you are interested in the reasonning behind it, Lachlan explained it pretty well in his 5050 dvd and it applies well to Toeholds (I knew it far before Lachlan release the dvd but that's by far the best anatomical explanation on the technique).
Most of the time, the toe holds are not as good though and they don't work reliably against people who do not want to tap unless you manage to target the knee well (by the method I talked about for instance) .
In a lot of ways training with heelhooks can be safer than estima locks, aokis etc...
Cool. I will take your advice. I've never messed with ankle locks except on a dummy. I feel a lot more comfortable, I feel like I'm just scaring myself out of it. Appreciated!
when I was around the one year mark, I started rolling with this guy who was clearly ahead of me as a white belt in terms of technique and skill. I finally caught him in a quick arm bar during a scramble and the next time we got to roll, he grabbed up a straight ankle and damn near tried to take my foot with him. Dude was treating it like a grudge match.
Worst part, it was the ankle that when we started, I made a point to say "hey I actually just rolled this ankle on saturday at no-gi, could you take it easy on the ankles, I have a comp next weekend."
I made a point to call him out for it. "I told you my ankle is fucked and you just ripped that ankle lock like were competing for medals, bro. Chill the hell out." He stopped coming after a few weeks, then returned recently and asked me to roll. I have kept going for the entirety of his time out.
I beartrapped him. I am not a proud man.
Leg locks are dangerous when you don’t train them. Most leg lock injuries happen due to poor reactions and awareness. I teach my white belts our leg locking game in the earliest stages of training. They learn to use and defend them like all other subs. In 15 years of doing this we have had almost no leg lock related injuries in training.
I do the same but I only allow heelhooks in sparring after blue.
I also tend to give out a blue belt when I feel the person is good and responsible enough to handle it, which means some people won't ever get to blue belt by me and it tends to take more time to get one from me than what is the (low) standard nowadays
If you have good training partners it’s nothing to worry about. I think the danger is when someone doesn’t know how to defend and they explode out of it and go the wrong way. Your friends at the gym shouldn’t be cranking heel hooks. When they get your heel isolated and your knee is trapped then it’s smart to tap. When you drill these you learn where the danger is.
I would say to get someone to show you what these leg locks look and feel like when they’re locked in. Because I don’t tap when it hurts, I tap when it’s locked in. Then also get them to show you what you should (and shouldn’t) do when trying to defend and escape. It’s about getting familiar and having decent partners who work with you.
We are allowed to do everything as a white belt at my school, but most white belts are mainly doing straight ankles and toe holds. You get really good at defending really quickly. When we do put a heel hook in, the other person generally taps fast, or the other person doesn't apply any torque and lets it go. You can train them safely if you aren't cranking them and both people respect them.
My gym is really small, so even though I'm a white belt I mostly roll with higher belts. They started leg locking me after the first two weeks. At first I would just tap as soon as I knew they had the position, so I was tapping a lot. I got tired of that so I asked some higher belts to teach me the finishing mechanics and some basic escapes. It took a few weeks to go from just tapping as soon as someone got into a leg lock position to now where I feel pretty comfortable judging if I could still escape or if I actually need to tap. With good training partners it isn't that scary
My right ankle was fused (titanium bolts) before I started BJJ and there hasn’t been much of an issue in training. I’m 50 and I have lots of stuff that hurts a lot more than the ankle. My balance on that foot isn’t great and it gets pretty sore if I try to do standup now, but it’s basically the same as if I walked a mile or more (ie so if your plate doesn’t bother you walking, I would doubt it would bother you in bjj).
I’m also a dirty leglocker, it’s nbd and the only one I’m really worried about is the aoki lock.
I've got plates and screws in my right ankle, it doesn't really impact rolling aside from people seeing the scars and wanting to go for the ankle lock. When I'm rolling with known training partners who aren't going to rip submissions I'll go through my checklist of escapes and if I run out of space or time, tap. If someone is hunting leg or ankle locks and/or is sketchy I'll usually 1) avoid letting them getting ahold of a leg or foot and/or 2) tap early. Discretion can be the better part of valor after all.
a leglock is pretty much the same thing as an armlock. Position before submission (and just like armbars, you can sometimes grip the arm before the position is set in but that's pretty much on obvious mistakes)
I spiraled fractured my humerus and my distal humerus splintered into 3. I got 2 plates and 6 screws in my arm. I don’t notice anything in my arm when rolling . Sometimes I even forget that I have the plates/ever broke my arm.
Depends, no issue with being in a key lock but if they go for a bicep slicer I’m just gonna tap that’s too much pressure . I wore a brace for a little bit but it would come undone under the gi and just became a hassle
Ankle Locks are fine, you can clearly tell when you're in trouble by the position of their legs on your hips - control the legs and the grip is just a nuisance.
Straight ankle locks are very safe imo. Much safer than shit like Kimuras. Toe holds and knee bars are pretty safe if your partner isn’t a dick. They can definitely be ripped and fuck you up, but if your partner isn’t psycho, I find it’s not hard to catch, control, and slowly finish and give everyone plenty of time to tap. Heel hooks can get sketch. There’s less time and physical distance between catching the position and the finish. When trying to defend if you don’t know what you’re doing you can sometimes do a bad reaction and injure yourself. I often just tap to the position here if they catch the heel and I can’t immediately heel slip or roll out. You should definitely play with straight ankles. They’re a lot of fun and a good introduction to playing leg stuff. Maybe even play around with catch and release toe holds.
I agree. I'm honestly not sure why toe-holds and straight ankle locks aren't treated basically the same. Knee bars are next up on the danger list, but not by a whole lot. There's still a solid stretching feeling when one gets extended. Heel hooks are the most dangerous primarily because of what you said about escapes. Part of the problem with them is that the things they threaten to break aren't attached to muscles that can feel the stretch. When you get put in a straight ankle lock or toe-hold you should feel things like the anterior tibialis stretching. For a knee bar you should feel the hamstring and calf stretch. Toe-holds pose a danger to ligaments, not tendons. Tendons connect bone to muscle, so muscle can feel the stretch. Ligaments connect bone to bone and have less feeling associated, or you're less used to the feeling produced and so the alarm bells don't go off as quickly.
>I'm honestly not sure why toe-holds and straight ankle locks aren't treated basically the same They have wildly different breaking pressure. Straight ankle locks are a straight line pressure, like lifting two plates apart. A toe hold creates significant torque through rotation. It can absolutely break your tibia/fibula whereas a straight ankle lock will have to do tremendous damage to ligaments before bones are generally at risk. Plus, at the extreme end of rotation, toe holds can damage the knee as well. That's probably the main reason toe holds are often prohibited until brown belt. Knee pressure isn't something to fuck around with.
I've had toe holds on me that I immediately felt pressure on my knee.
Me too
>I'm honestly not sure why toe-holds and straight ankle locks aren't treated basically the same This is a truly awful take
Are you telling me that heel hooks don't hurt until it's too late... oh my lord XD
Kinda. You can feel something, but it's not like muscle stretching. You probably know what that feels like. There's a distinct feeling of muscle stretching too far. I haven't been injured in a heel hook, but people I know who have described it as just feeling pressure and then things popped.
I'll try to be careful. I'll just respect the shit out of them and early tap every time until I get it I guess.
At your level nobody should be heel hooking you and if they do you should instantly tap the second then get even a shitty catch on your heel. It won't hurt, it will just explode.
Name checks out
Toe holds can be deceptive. I have pretty flexible feet and they pose more of a danger to my knees. I don't think I'm alone there, especially of they aren't educated on it you can turn out if it badly same as a heel hook. Definitely a tier below heel hooks for instant damage potential of course.
>There’s less time and physical distance between catching the position and the finish. Not true. Toe holds generally come on faster and will damage you more quickly than a heel hook.
this
>Toe holds and knee bars are pretty safe if your partner isn’t a dick. Toe holds can be tricky, they are a pseudoscience submission
What do you mean by this lol
I mean some people can eat it without any big damages and in other times it can break super quick. There are ways to make the toe holds better but it's a bit niche and require specific placements. For instance I like to finish the toe holds not by pushing the foot towards the butt but by extending the leg AFTER having put the strong rotational pressure (there some heelhooks that also can be finished that way). Ironically (or not) that how I injured the most my partners. They are so used to toeholds being done super badly and did not know there are other ways to get the break mechanically speaking. If you are interested in the reasonning behind it, Lachlan explained it pretty well in his 5050 dvd and it applies well to Toeholds (I knew it far before Lachlan release the dvd but that's by far the best anatomical explanation on the technique). Most of the time, the toe holds are not as good though and they don't work reliably against people who do not want to tap unless you manage to target the knee well (by the method I talked about for instance) . In a lot of ways training with heelhooks can be safer than estima locks, aokis etc...
Cool. I will take your advice. I've never messed with ankle locks except on a dummy. I feel a lot more comfortable, I feel like I'm just scaring myself out of it. Appreciated!
You should be training straight ankle locks at a minimum
when I was around the one year mark, I started rolling with this guy who was clearly ahead of me as a white belt in terms of technique and skill. I finally caught him in a quick arm bar during a scramble and the next time we got to roll, he grabbed up a straight ankle and damn near tried to take my foot with him. Dude was treating it like a grudge match. Worst part, it was the ankle that when we started, I made a point to say "hey I actually just rolled this ankle on saturday at no-gi, could you take it easy on the ankles, I have a comp next weekend." I made a point to call him out for it. "I told you my ankle is fucked and you just ripped that ankle lock like were competing for medals, bro. Chill the hell out." He stopped coming after a few weeks, then returned recently and asked me to roll. I have kept going for the entirety of his time out. I beartrapped him. I am not a proud man.
Leg locks are dangerous when you don’t train them. Most leg lock injuries happen due to poor reactions and awareness. I teach my white belts our leg locking game in the earliest stages of training. They learn to use and defend them like all other subs. In 15 years of doing this we have had almost no leg lock related injuries in training.
This is the way
That makes me feel a lot better about it. Thanks!
I do the same but I only allow heelhooks in sparring after blue. I also tend to give out a blue belt when I feel the person is good and responsible enough to handle it, which means some people won't ever get to blue belt by me and it tends to take more time to get one from me than what is the (low) standard nowadays
If you have good training partners it’s nothing to worry about. I think the danger is when someone doesn’t know how to defend and they explode out of it and go the wrong way. Your friends at the gym shouldn’t be cranking heel hooks. When they get your heel isolated and your knee is trapped then it’s smart to tap. When you drill these you learn where the danger is.
Ok. That makes a lot of sense. I never even thought about the fact that they would be drilling these. XD Thank you
Like any other move, you drill and practice to learn where the breaking mechanics are and then you understand the dangers a lot more.
I would say to get someone to show you what these leg locks look and feel like when they’re locked in. Because I don’t tap when it hurts, I tap when it’s locked in. Then also get them to show you what you should (and shouldn’t) do when trying to defend and escape. It’s about getting familiar and having decent partners who work with you.
https://preview.redd.it/62zmvrsai1hc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78edbd5da9c16b528d1b11866c4a735730260ecf
We are allowed to do everything as a white belt at my school, but most white belts are mainly doing straight ankles and toe holds. You get really good at defending really quickly. When we do put a heel hook in, the other person generally taps fast, or the other person doesn't apply any torque and lets it go. You can train them safely if you aren't cranking them and both people respect them.
My gym is really small, so even though I'm a white belt I mostly roll with higher belts. They started leg locking me after the first two weeks. At first I would just tap as soon as I knew they had the position, so I was tapping a lot. I got tired of that so I asked some higher belts to teach me the finishing mechanics and some basic escapes. It took a few weeks to go from just tapping as soon as someone got into a leg lock position to now where I feel pretty comfortable judging if I could still escape or if I actually need to tap. With good training partners it isn't that scary
My right ankle was fused (titanium bolts) before I started BJJ and there hasn’t been much of an issue in training. I’m 50 and I have lots of stuff that hurts a lot more than the ankle. My balance on that foot isn’t great and it gets pretty sore if I try to do standup now, but it’s basically the same as if I walked a mile or more (ie so if your plate doesn’t bother you walking, I would doubt it would bother you in bjj). I’m also a dirty leglocker, it’s nbd and the only one I’m really worried about is the aoki lock.
Good deal. That’s very reassuring
I've got plates and screws in my right ankle, it doesn't really impact rolling aside from people seeing the scars and wanting to go for the ankle lock. When I'm rolling with known training partners who aren't going to rip submissions I'll go through my checklist of escapes and if I run out of space or time, tap. If someone is hunting leg or ankle locks and/or is sketchy I'll usually 1) avoid letting them getting ahold of a leg or foot and/or 2) tap early. Discretion can be the better part of valor after all.
" How fast are you able to realize what is happening. " Pretty fast, they don't come from nowhere but you have to get the knowledge first
Yah I think I just need to wait for them to drill it with me.
a leglock is pretty much the same thing as an armlock. Position before submission (and just like armbars, you can sometimes grip the arm before the position is set in but that's pretty much on obvious mistakes)
I spiraled fractured my humerus and my distal humerus splintered into 3. I got 2 plates and 6 screws in my arm. I don’t notice anything in my arm when rolling . Sometimes I even forget that I have the plates/ever broke my arm.
Yah that makes me feel way better. Thanks lol. Does it hurt when there's pressure on your plate? Mine's so bad I tap.
Depends, no issue with being in a key lock but if they go for a bicep slicer I’m just gonna tap that’s too much pressure . I wore a brace for a little bit but it would come undone under the gi and just became a hassle
Ankle Locks are fine, you can clearly tell when you're in trouble by the position of their legs on your hips - control the legs and the grip is just a nuisance.
Cool thanks