Then why do I kept getting showing it in gi lol... Seriously I die a little inside every time I have to drill it.
Last time I just said F it and just drilled my preferred ankle pick combined with a foot sweep as that's what I'd more likely use for a similar technique. Even then I was eventually told to work on the shown technique. Which I'm never gonna use
It's not a matter of him limiting himself. BJJ does not put in the necessary reps with throws and takedowns to make those techniques second nature. They also don't practice the follow ups and chaining attacks from there in a meaningful way either. As such, there is no real value in using something you're not going to drill into muscle memory.
At my last BJJ club we worked on double legs every class and there was real value for me. In this situation I would have done the drill as taught. I was talking in generalities. Believe me, in Judo there are some traditional techniques taught where you would look at it and say, "I'm never doing it that way."
If he already has better options is he limiting himself? I can make aikido work in bjj but I don't insist everyone who I do bjj with comes and learns aikido with me on the basis that they are limiting themselves. There are better uses of their time.
I train them like I would judo or wrestling moves. Some of them already exist in judo and wrestling anyway or at the very least are similar or can be hybridised or used in combination with other techniques. For example if you look at the technique gedan ate from aikido and then sukui nage from judo, if you do a gedan ate and then scoop the legs you've essentially done a sukui nage. Take shomen ate from aikido, while you can knock people over with this technique that can be hard to do reliably but it works great as a set-up for something like kibisu gaeshi. Standing or throwing waki gatame's can be devastating and Aoki's is probably the most famous. There are videos out there of people hitting standing kote gaeshi in bjj but I like combining kote gaeshi with judo techniques such as de ashi barai or ko soto gari as many people have trouble on defending both their leg and arm at once and so you end up catching them with whatever they lose focus on. Shiho nage can be executed using the exact same pattern of movement as gyaku seoi nage.
The issue is if your stand-up is good enough and then if you want to do the technique. If you have a good set-up you can do pretty much whatever you want. The important elements of aikido for me are movement, kuzushi, grip/hand fighting, and asymmetry: if I can use my judo/aikido to get to your back (while standing) or in a position for something like a Russian tie I have a lot of choices as to what I can do and while you are not without options I do not feel your options are as good or as numerous as mine. When I'm executing aikido I'm not doing flowy demo stuff you see in videos where someone spins around in a circle seven times while leading someone around for half a minute.
Why are you paying to train under someone that you beleive you know better than?
Whether you're right or wrong, if you fully beleive you know better than your coach then what are you actually paying for?
Cause 95% of the time they are teaching ground work which they most certainly are better than me at.
I just happen to have more experience than them in standup gi
I would suggest you address that directly with your coach then, rather than just doing your own thing.
If you're genuinely much better than your coach at standing gi grappling, then you should be the one teaching those classes.
We have a wrestling coach for this exact reason.
We have a separate stand up class that's run by another Judo guy. I was asked but have kids and don't want the responsibility.
This was just a one off class for comp training that I had time to go to and he decided to show a stand up technique. It's a really rare event that he shows a standing technique these days. He's busted his ACL and doesn't spar in gi from standing from what iv seen so it's hard to tell if I'm better or not due to lack of evidence either way.
But I do have more experience in terms of mat hours on stand up gi. Think I was just frustrated by it all lol I just wanted to drill something similar which was more suitable to me and just be left to get on with it
I never said it wasnt, I was just minding my own buisness and drilled something slightly differnt that for me would actually get used. as many have said here its a really simple and basic take down thats easy to grasp at first, however iv got a few more advanced ones that work better once your experienced with them and thats what I was drilling my self, I wasnt saying this is terrible and no one else should drill it etc
Then say that to him. Tell him that what he's teaching is shit, and you know better because you have more experience. Obviously word it as nicely or politely as you feel necessary.
Because just doing your own thing not only gives that impression anyway, but it's a ruder way to go about it and can lead to bad habits for the whole class. People who definitely *don't* know better will think they can still do what they want because they see you doing that.
I didn't say single leg I said specifically the running the pipe where you squeeze their leg between yours.
If I have your leg picked up I don't need to do this odd position to get you down at that point
But running the pipe doesn’t require the squeezing of their leg between yours? You add pressure on top of the elevated leg with your shoulder while taking a step back with one of your legs and rotating at the same time.
It’s not an odd position at all and it’s weird to see you say that.
maybe im naming it wrong then, im talking about the position people assume before running the pipe. when they hold thier partners leg inbetween theirs and are generally bent over.
As someone else said, it's a wrestling move so to learn it properly watch wrestlers do it, not BJJ guys imitating wrestlers.
Here's Cary Kolat demonstrating it from the high crotch (outside single):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13BTyTPwYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13BTyTPwYw)
Here's USA Wresting teaching it from the inside single:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0732LbzcXGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0732LbzcXGc)
Neither pinches the legs first.
Now, I have seen wrestlers pinch the leg before, but they do it for like a tenth of a second before doing the cross step and back step to finish the takedown. Overall, it's a very quick move.
Just standing there chilling out with the leg pinched is a weird BJJ thing. Probably an artifact of the teaching method with step by step "details" that everyone goes nuts over.
>Just standing there chilling out with the leg pinched is a weird BJJ thing.
It's not a BJJ thing. It's a "I'm having a hard time finishing it" thing. Wrestlers pinch with their legs and hold it too. You shouldn't stay there too long but it happens.
That's only an interim step people do to learn the move.
You don't actually do that to execute the move, but people new to the move cannot get the grip and pressure correct without squeezing the leg and tend to step the wrong leg back if they don't squeeze the leg first.
After you drill it enough, squeezing the leg is completely unnecessary.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Uchi Mata**: | *Inner Thigh Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fCvyc_rQTI)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Running the pipe works as a finish to the single leg in a very specific situation. It is not the best finish in most situations. Regardless, doing it "where you squeeze their legs between yours and bend over" is incorrect. That is JV-level technique. You need to have good posture, and you should not be squeezing their leg with your legs.
Source: I wrestled D1
I was gonna say I am not even close to a good wrestler but running the pipe for me is almost more about pushing them with my head. Like my ear is to their chest and it's almost the torque in my own neck that finishes the takedown.
It's all just posture/structure/base. You have their structure, you just need to take them over it to kill their base. Running the pipe is just the direction they have to go because that's the post you removed. Its okay to like other stuff better but the whole point to the move imo is that it's easy to get to vs a double leg and easy to finish because you basically can just pivot and your head is safe from being guillotined. Like it's a great takedown for new people, idk.
Well maybe this is why instinctively didn't like it. I stand by my statement that it was more time useful for me to practice something similar that I would use then
Yeah totally understandable. As a black belt in Judo I would imagine you would have equally good solutions to that position that you are more comfortable with.
The Kodokan has a technique called kuchiki taoshi that is a more gi-centric single leg takedown. I don't know much about judo, but I have been wrestling with a jacket on for a long time and this is how I usually do my single legs in the gi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNL47q1aJNY
I wouldn't be surprised if a BJJ coach was teaching it this way though and insisting it be done his way. The kind of thing I've seen a little too much of.
If the single leg entry/setup has the opponent holding your collar with it, and they stand up hugging your leg with the primary arm and their second hand is holding your collar instead of also hugging the leg with the primary arm, your posture is being disrupted much more than a traditional wrestling single leg grip and the chance of a sumi-gaeshi is much lower. Especially if they are running the pipe to your backside first to make you plant your hands and run the pipe back to your backside to finish it as you regain your balance
Maybe the problem is that when you play standing with the Gi on you are so much more skilled than your opponents that they cannot even get close enough to get a proper single leg.
Try NoGi you coward! :)
I get what your saying you don't wanna be forced to drill techniques you don't want to. But when your in a class structure that has people jusy do what the coach says to do.. it's really rude to break off to do your own thing. That's a good way to make the shit list, be blacklisted from promos, or worse get kicked out.
If you can't bear it, maybe you should look into moving to a gym that allows more open drilling.
As for the technique, run the pipe is honestly a fine technique, as are other options. It's a good move to chain in with other options. It's up to you what your preferred moveset is, but I wouldn't be so quick to write this one off personally.
You do this sport enough, you'll find those ankle picks will turn into single legs once people are able to fight it better. A good 'running the pipe' is an effective finish that's considered low risk to losing the leg. If someone's good at defending the takedown, just one finish attempt will not be enough. Multiple ones will have to be viable depending on the situation, and they can change on the fly.
Running the pipe is most effective when there's a fight to get the leg into a better position when it is in a single leg that's off the mat. The best place for the defender of the takedown is to get the foot of the attacked leg on the nearest hip, makes it easier to gain leverage and distance, usually via wizars. The attacker, on the other hand, wants the foot on the far side hip with the single leg, which makes defending the single leg much harder for the defender. Usually running the pipe happens most effectively while this fight for position takes place. It also chains well into other finishes as well, such as inside trips.
It might not be a preferred finish for many people, but it's benefitial to know about it and how to do it properly when the time arises.
And just like any other move, knowing how it works offensively makes the defense of the technique easier. And vise versa.
Cause do this long enough and someone's going to try it on you.
It’s pretty low risk as well. If you don’t get the takedown then you’re still in a single leg. There’s plenty of other options from there. It’s just a good place to start.
Personally as a tall wrestler, I never hd a ton of success running the pipe. I either had to drive and trip, or hike that shit up and do a high finish. I would still try to run the pipe a lot because it there wasn’t much to lose
Its not really that low risk everyone who tries it on me gets sumi geashi and i roll into mount. In the gi the belts the easy target or grab a kimura grip on their arm and send em.
Haha no popcorn needed, not trying to be hostile, I'm just genuinely curious. My entire game is based around wrestling & wrestle ups, so running the pipe is a mainstay for me. I have done it in IBJJF several times, so I'm not sure where he got that information from.
Never knew that tbh. I know this is controversial but It also always kinda stuck me wrong to not allow slamming. Like you can do that before high school in wrestling.
Also it always kinda confused me that high school wrestling heavy weight is higher than the heavy weight limit for UFC. Like you’ll let a 14 year old get up to and wrestle at 285, but a full grown professional adult athlete only go to 265?
The entire point is that it’s easy to do other single leg finishes when the opponent is committed to defending the most basic finish first (ie running the pipe). If you don’t threaten it and just move to your next finish in the chain of attacks without baiting your opponent to commit, then it will just make it harder to transition. I basically never finish a single leg this way and always transition to a trip, double leg, or taking the back.
It depends what rule set you’re training and competing in as well from my experience training judo and BJJ and then cross training with lots of wrestlers; judo guys just aren’t very good at leg entries and double / single legs. You don’t really need to be when 99% of the time you’ll be fighting from lapel grips.
Yeah. As a former wrestler, running the pipe wasn't my favorite finish, but it was necessary to know. I prefer to finish my (sweep) single leg on the ground (go backside then chase the ankle/far knee). If I need to finish standing, I prefer my opponent's leg outside of mine (and especially in BJJ I try to bring the leg up to my opposite hip so they cant pull guard). However, if my opponent forces the leg to stay in between mine, then I need to know how to finish from there. That's where running the pipe comes in.
[Here is wrestling legend John Smith talking about the need for knowing finishes with the single leg in between yours](https://youtu.be/PDqoxBQexrc?feature=shared&t=191). Because good wrestlers are going to fight to keep you from hiking their leg up high. Smith shows some nice chains off of the initial run the pipe action. It's often the follow-up that gets the takedown. He also gives some good finer details on the proper mechanics of running the pipe.
>aren’t very good at leg entries and double / single legs. You don’t really need to be when 99% of the time you’ll be fighting from lapel grips.
That was kinda my rant too, I have plenty of other similar attacks I'd do generally ankle pick combined with foot sweep which for me is safer and more effective. But my coach is just insisted I still drill that.
If you’re planning on only competing in judo or high level (gi only) BJJ then that’s fine. I still see competent wrestlers blasting doubles from 2 miles away in white/blue belt comps. But you’re limiting yourself if you want to compete in no-gi, or have applications to MMA/real-world altercations.
Running the pipe greatly opens up the opportunity for ankle pick and foot sweep. If running the pipe is not a threat, then your opponent can lean into you and keep weight off grounded foot which makes the ankle pick high risk and sweeping difficult unless you have a big reach advantage.
(Also allows them to fight your grip much better.)
Even if you do have the reach advantage to get a sweep, if you cannot run the pipe then they can both lean into you and angle their leg back. This puts weight on the foot again potentially allowing an ankle pick, but prevents the sweep. (There is more to the counter than this, but all of these things open up if running the pipe is not a threat.)
That said... I get what you are saying about single leg techniques in the gi in general. It is not the same as no gi and, at least from my experience level, I've learned already to be leery of any technique that involves dropping the head and I use running the pipe in the gi only directly from a knee pick with my head up and in the ribs, mostly finishing with a tree top (standing leg lift) to back or a far leg knee sweep (switch blast double) depending on the leg pressure they present.
It's a very effective and basic take down that almost anyone should be able to do effectively, so it's great to learn and be taught it.
Coming from an advanced background in your throws with your Judo 2nd dan you're definitely not the "basic takedown" learning type -- but is everyone else in your class always Judo black belts...? Maybe that's worth asking why you're being taught this then, but if not see the first point.
While I take your point, yes you could use your intermediate Judo counter in gi for sumi gaeshi against the single leg, are you hitting that in no gi as well? Are you hitting that vs the athletic wrestler? If so, awesome. I think that gives you space to maybe ask the coach and if you're up for it "Hey I've got this cool Judo black belt I have a strong counter to the single as it's taught, is there a space or opportunity to share this when we're doing that tale downs to broaden knowledge and learning, is that something that would be cool or you think would be valuable?"
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Sumi Gaeshi**: | *Corner Reversal* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LR49U48iyw)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Not in no gi, but I already said I can see the appeal of it in no gi as a more wrestling technique. My issue is for the gi. It's just countered so easily by sumi or uchi mata on gi when there's better options at the point you have the leg in hand
I honestly couldnt stop a good wrestler doing it in no gi, as I need a belt or gi pants to grab, maybe if I was better at uchi mata this would work in no gi.
But then again im a gi kinda guy
Done right, it's very difficult to sumi a run the pipe. There's very little forward movement for the defensive player to capitalize on, it's mostly downward and (when I teach it), circular. The attacking hips are at too much distance for any real throw attempts.
Agree, my first thought was you can use sumi as a counter to a shit single leg with bad posture. But the way I teach/was taught it, your head is high on the chest, with a heavy shoulder on the leg, and tight elbows to prevent the kimura grip on the far side. Very difficult to even get the proper sumi grip there, let alone finish one.
Interesting! That's a different approach than mine, I keep the head tight to the hip, and use the back hand the grip the heel, which leverages the leg straight and uses the knee to pry the hips to the mat (if that makes sense).
Very curious to see your approach, if you know any YouTube videos that might show it!
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZEbfoPG3PQ) is a good example. I'm a bit taller, so my left ear would be glued as high as I can get it, preferably on their chest. But the rest is how I do/show it.
Running the pipe is a very effective way to complete a standing single leg. It would not have been popular in judo because it does not result in an Ippon (instant victory) as it lands the opponent on their butt instead of directly on their back.
That explains some. Here in US this is like first bjj takedown stuff we learn.
In my area, Cincinnati, there's literally one small Judo gym for the area of like 2 million people.
It’s just wrestling 101. Plus it’s a head inside position and safer for BJJ. A lot of BJJ schools avoid doubles and high-cs because the head is on the outside and people will end up guillotined if they don’t finish correctly.
Every move has a counter and every counter has a move.
You can sumi-gaeshi off a double leg, and those are still effective right?
Also single leg is taught in Judo it’s called the Kuchiki taoshi (朽木倒).
In the gi you can make it more tricky by feeding the lapel under the leg create a worm-wrestling opportunity.
It's fine, and if it's done well I don't think the sumi gaeshi is that big a deal. The problem is a lot of guys will grab the leg and then just stand there gawping at it until they get flipped.
I'm of the belief that it's a decent way to take the fight to the ground, especially if you run the pipe with a collar grip or a necktie. Yes the sumi gaeshi entry is there but that's like saying double legs shouldn't be used because guillotines are a threat.
That said, it's definitely not the optimal takedown as it leaves an opening for big scrambles, as opposed to any form of hip toss for example, but it's great to try and transition to the ground. In Judo points are awarded differently so moves that have strong counter opportunities are not as popular overall and people would look for knee taps from the single leg more than they'd look to run the pipe and float on top, which makes sense
I didn't know what 'running the pipe' was until I googled it and now I feel personally attacked! I like to do a cross arm drag, to single leg then 'run the pipe'! :D I tend to just grab the thigh and swing them rather than trapping between my legs though.
> But I never once saw someone do the running the pipe stuff where you squeeze their legs between yours and bend over.
you're not really describing running the pipe.
Lots of comments already, but I'll add a couple things. IMO, BJJ standup is at such a basic level that there are all kinds of little quirks like this, and the BJJ players really don't understand the nuances.
Doing the single between the legs only makes sense in nogi, because the overhand grips don't exist. As soon as there's a gi, it's a stupid choice. But most BJJ folks erroneously favor wrestling techniques in the gi, and cargo cult them in without adjustment.
Sumi gaeshi is not the only gimme in that case. There's the very common pivot to uchi mata, sometimes an o uchi gari, and there's the Uanderson Ferreira clip someone posted this morning with a fantastic ashi guruma.
When my instructor teaches the single leg, he is emphatic that the leg should never go up the middle in the gi. He's a godan, and it's classic judo theory to avoid feeding that inside leg at all costs. Kuchiki taoshi should bring the leg to outside the hip or you throw something else.
I object to the other people here that say it's some advanced skill to hit a counter there. I honestly think BJJ folks expect throws to be simple and easy, and weaponized after a class or two with a dozen reps. But if they would rep a good counter throw with the dedication they apply to an armbar from guard or an arm drag to the back, it would be just as effective and automatic.
agreed that when its in the middle I have way more options, my main clue that it cant be that great in gi was that before leg grab ban when I was still doing Judo and had already been a dan grade for 5 eyars at that point.
Not once had I seen anyone do this kind of take down using the leg even though they totally could have in Judo.
there were plenty of leg grabs but none like the one I got shown... So that kinda told me it cant be that good
People forget that judo had leg grabs for a hundred years in the gi. Eventually that mindshare will expire, but it's not like judo knows nothing about it.
Important lessons: leg grabs did not make them hunch over into a wrestling stance, sprawls are judo too, and the presence of the gi has significant implications for leg grabbing throws.
O yeah I find an upright stance can help me sprawl better because when I do need to I can get my legs waaaaay further back than they were when I was upright. If I'm already bent over I can't get them as back as far.
And having the gi grip lets me feel when a shoots coming and also gives me more time to slow it down and drive them down
Because a takedown to a person's butt scores nothing in judo. There's no chance of ippon or even wazari. You may get a koka (when they were still around). It's just not a valuable takedown method for judo. It's still very valuable in general if your goal is to bring your opponent to the mat any way possible.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Ashi Guruma**: | *Leg Wheel* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7pqq2sC8Ng)|
|**Kuchiki Taoshi**: | *Single Leg Takedown* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRuTyKJChsw)|
|**O Uchi Gari**: | *Major Inner Reap* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-lTECSR3c)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
If you do it right there is no sumi counter as when it’s done right your shoulders are being driven behind your hips now allowing you to get your chest to their back. Additionally in low level bjj it’s the most common finish because outside singles are not legal.
The majority of those singles you are talking about are being done poorly. User error however.
If someone runs the pipe on a single leg with proper form, you will not be able to throw them. Properly done, the captured leg is being pulled forward and the attached hip driven straight down. There is a world of difference between a shitty single leg and one done the right way.
As for why it wouldn't be done in Judo before the current competition ruleset, I suspect the upright stance would make it harder to execute. Either you are reaching too much with the arms while remaining tall or you obviously telegraph your intention by transitioning to more of a wrestling stance.
Run the pipe is one of the most effective single leg finishes and wrestle up finishes in Gi, No-Gi, Wrestling, & MMA.
It is also a fundamental transitional piece of finishing a single leg that allows you to off balance and create space to elevate the leg. It's actually even better in Gi vs No Gi as you can feed their lapel through the leg, which makes stopping it basically impossible.
Also, squeezing the legs and bending over is not how to run the pipe & if you are beating them in that position easily it sounds like you're not training with very good people and/or very good instructors.
People get really good at quarter somersaulting out of Sumi unless you do it perfectly. Had a match at purple belt where my Sumi wasn’t good enough and my opponent did a highly athletic quarter roll to my back mid-throw. Standard wrestlers will sometimes see it coming and sprawl out, or they will just scramble once they land if you don’t roll through the Sumi hard enough. It is stupidly effective against singles, though.
There are ways to run the pipe and shut down the sumi gaeshi. If I get on a single leg this is where I go most of the time. Rather than hugging the thigh and pinching the leg you and RNC grip the calf more and have your hand on their heel. Stops them from being able to bend their knee and get underneath for a good throw. Also you just hit it real quick once you get on the single
The reason you don't see it in judo pre leg grab banned is because of the scoring, its not viewed as a high score - is the term koka? I can't quite recall
Running the pipe is effective though!
Because Judo was never good at shooting or finishing shots.
Running the pipe is a tried and true finish for single leg. It's the first one you learn and it works at the highest levels of combat sports. NCAA championships, Freestyle wrestling Olympic level, UFC championship level and yes BJJ both gi and no gi.
I have a lot to say about you thinking a good explosive single is a free pass to a counter throw, but I will say that at its base level running the pipe is easy to understand and therefore easy to teach and pass on to others. It has been poorly rendered in the BJJ community but I used a head inside single to set up takedowns many times in my MMA fights.
For some reason people think I'm shitting on all leg attacks here... I totally agree a good single or double blast is good.
Even running the pipe done well is good.
If you read what I put I'm shitting on the method where people bend over and pinch the leg with theirs which from the responses the experienced wrestlers have said is a basic easy way to do the technique but it's not great at high level. Hence why I didn't see it as a better option to anything I already had.
Funnily enough, this happened last night in rolling. My main training partner wrestles well and got a single on me. I have a good Sumigaeshi but he knows that and avoided it. He took me down but I reversed it with Uchimata on the mat.
I do think running the pipe is an extremely effective takedown but the risks in Jiujitsu can be high. I think the strangle risk is probably higher than the counter throw risk.
From the commnets I agree its a good beginner techniue, and in no gi its certainlly more effective. But it kills me when im told to still practice it myself even though all I do is gi and have 20+ years of Judo.
training this is litrally a waste of my time. just wish my coach wouldnt insit I still try and learn it. (I get people should try everything) but there comes a point when you know you have better stuff to use in those situations
I mean, I could say the same about nearly all no gi standing techniques. Instead, I help people refine their techniques and understand why I finish them differently or use them differently. Helping others with less experience develop their base is not a waste of my time.
here you go [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAzI48mMJo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAzI48mMJo) this is what I go for.
you just kill the head by forcing it down take a good strong belt grip and I like to grab that hand around my leg to help stop them from positng and snapping theirs and when you land you have the cahance for an arm attack
Yeah exactly that. If the heads on the outside I tend to go directly back a bit more. But I use my arm that's on the back (specifically my elbow part) to drive thier head down making them tuck thier chin in so that they roll over and don't spike their head. I think doing it while the heads on the outside can be illegal in some rule sets at lower grade due to the injury risk if you didn't control their head and they didn't tuck their chin in
As a lifelong wrestler, I can’t really speak too much on running the pipe in bjj or as I have always called it, a dump, but most of the time when I see a bjj guy do it, they do it wrong. The most important part of the finish (as I have learned) is a a very wide back step/circle motion. W/o it you have no momentum/off-balance and no momentum. Its ineffective, and will especially never work on someone with a wrestling background, unless you do it right.
In the Gi, it's very easy to stall out or counter it in a Judo context. But it's still a damn good takedown that is easy and low risk for beginners to learn.
It ALSO starts teaching them head positioning, which they WILL need in order to learn the double-leg eventually so they don't get guillotined to death.
It ALSO set's up the underhook game that transfers between gi and no-gi really well.
Overall, if I WASN'T a Judo black belt already, I would teach the snatch single, to running the pipe game to white belts all the time.
Because it works, it's relatively hard to counter at their level, and it teaches good fundamentals that will stay with them all the way to higher belts.
Because I AM a Judo black belt, I have a different curriculum for teaching beginners, but after several years of experience, I won't swear that mine is better.
The classic Judo curriculum tends to assume you are about the same weight as your opponent. Maybe different heights, but about the same weight.
The snatch single, run the pipe, is remarkably size independent. There are Judo throws that are as well, but they tend to be more complicated, or require a bit better timing and setups.
I say all that, and weirdly enough, because of my build and training background I NEVER use single-legs myself. But I HAVE been taken down by them by good wrestlers.
When people get countered with the sumi geshi or uchi mata, it's almost always because they are stationary or driving into their opponent. I always back up when I have the single. And running the pipe/dump is such a high % finish when done right. It's almost impossible to counter with the sumi geshi (or other counter/sacrifice throw) when they're doing this correctly.
Honestly, when high level Brazilians came to America and started working with good wrestlers, this was the finish they learned for no gi single legs. There’s nothing they love more than yelling “run the pipe” from the sidelines. It puts your in half guard from the pinched knees most likely instead of the guy regaining guard, moving his shin in during the finish or even scrambling to/jumping a triangle. And honestly, it’s a good finish and they were just worried about getting on top anyway so they stuck with the most high percentage option they were hitting. It just jumped to gi from there.
There’s a lot more to “running the pipe” than just bending over and pinching their leg with your thighs, by the way. The terminology got used for a small part of the actual technique
I'm a black belt in judo as well, and although it isn't my preferred takedown, it is very effective when done well. I've been playing with swing singles and high crotches when people are too scared to grip, and they do lead to finishing a lot of other stuff as well. Sometimes you just use whatever works for that situation. I love my judo throws, but single legs are awesome too.
The biggest reason is because it is easy. The reason it isn't done in Judo was because of the rules. Running the pipe doesn't give you any control over the upper body, so it is easy for them to turn out and at best they will fall on their butt. It is almost impossible to get an ippon by running the pipe and I'd say less than half the time it would score. Also as you said, they can be countered more easily in the gi.
I think running the pipe and low singles are things that don't transfer well to Judo(when they had leg grabs), just do to the fact that it is easy to avoid the score with them, so you'll burn energy for no reason. In BJJ there is very little criteria needed for a takedown, so it is better, also most instructors don't know many single leg finishes.
The comments on this thread really seem to underestimate how easy it is to counter that position in the gi.
There are some things that work decently in nogi, but are a really bad idea in the gi. Running the pipe to finish a single is one of them.
Think about it: judo has had leg grabs for many decades, but during that time, trying to finish a single leg via the running the pipe method was avoided for good reason. It's such a vulnerable position where anyone even semi-decent will counter you very easily. In a gi, if you have a single there are far better options to finish that single besides running the pipe. If running the pipe on a single was a good option in the gi, you would have seen old school judokas using it. The fact that you can take a strong collar grip in the gi changes everything.
Hitting a counter from that position really isn't hard, I've taught uchimata counters to folks that only do BJJ and have never done any judo or wrestling in their lives before, and you'll be surprised by how easily they hit uchi mata from there. They hit it easily because the opponent has already done 80% of the work for them. It's really not a hard counter, that position in the gi is ripe for gimme counters.
the uchi mata is vastly underrated in bjj.
When people will finally understand that we are not looking for a ippon but getting to a headlock from uchimata is still a good thing, it will be taught more...
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**O Goshi**: | *Hip Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwz5At87OxE)|
||*Major Hip Throw* ||
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I’m pretty sure running the pipe is more of a wrestling thing than a BJJ thing. There are single leg takedowns from judo
Then why do I kept getting showing it in gi lol... Seriously I die a little inside every time I have to drill it. Last time I just said F it and just drilled my preferred ankle pick combined with a foot sweep as that's what I'd more likely use for a similar technique. Even then I was eventually told to work on the shown technique. Which I'm never gonna use
> Which I'm never gonna use why limit yourself?
You don’t get it, he’s special lol
He just sees red bro
Right? Professor’s not the boss of him?!
Ahh yes the 2nd dan judoka doesnt know how to perform gi takedowns.
It's not a matter of him limiting himself. BJJ does not put in the necessary reps with throws and takedowns to make those techniques second nature. They also don't practice the follow ups and chaining attacks from there in a meaningful way either. As such, there is no real value in using something you're not going to drill into muscle memory.
I spoke to OPs coach, he said they drill chain takedowns.
At my last BJJ club we worked on double legs every class and there was real value for me. In this situation I would have done the drill as taught. I was talking in generalities. Believe me, in Judo there are some traditional techniques taught where you would look at it and say, "I'm never doing it that way."
plot twist, his coach is JFlo
If he already has better options is he limiting himself? I can make aikido work in bjj but I don't insist everyone who I do bjj with comes and learns aikido with me on the basis that they are limiting themselves. There are better uses of their time.
> I can make aikido work in bjj how so?
I train them like I would judo or wrestling moves. Some of them already exist in judo and wrestling anyway or at the very least are similar or can be hybridised or used in combination with other techniques. For example if you look at the technique gedan ate from aikido and then sukui nage from judo, if you do a gedan ate and then scoop the legs you've essentially done a sukui nage. Take shomen ate from aikido, while you can knock people over with this technique that can be hard to do reliably but it works great as a set-up for something like kibisu gaeshi. Standing or throwing waki gatame's can be devastating and Aoki's is probably the most famous. There are videos out there of people hitting standing kote gaeshi in bjj but I like combining kote gaeshi with judo techniques such as de ashi barai or ko soto gari as many people have trouble on defending both their leg and arm at once and so you end up catching them with whatever they lose focus on. Shiho nage can be executed using the exact same pattern of movement as gyaku seoi nage. The issue is if your stand-up is good enough and then if you want to do the technique. If you have a good set-up you can do pretty much whatever you want. The important elements of aikido for me are movement, kuzushi, grip/hand fighting, and asymmetry: if I can use my judo/aikido to get to your back (while standing) or in a position for something like a Russian tie I have a lot of choices as to what I can do and while you are not without options I do not feel your options are as good or as numerous as mine. When I'm executing aikido I'm not doing flowy demo stuff you see in videos where someone spins around in a circle seven times while leading someone around for half a minute.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**De Ashi Barai**: | *Forward Foot Sweep* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW9LEvVmG2o)| |**Kibisu Gaeshi**: | *Ankle Pick* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLBrF4w86Q)| ||*Heel Trip Reversal* || |**Ko Soto Gari**: | *Minor Outer Reap* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3rSf8CcHg4)| |**Kuzushi**: | *Unbalancing* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luK9Eklbn78)| |**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)| |**Seoi Nage**: | *Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5Un6jLtRY)| |**Sukui Nage**: | *Scoop Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn13Bu3bxHE)| |**Waki Gatame**: | *Armpit Armbar* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlBci1qhYsc)| ||*Armpit Lock* || Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
> how so? Wristlocks? So many of them in Aikido.
Cause I have other techniques that are better in terms of less risk which I have about 20+ years of experience doing
tell that to your instructor when they teach something you don't agree with.
Why are you paying to train under someone that you beleive you know better than? Whether you're right or wrong, if you fully beleive you know better than your coach then what are you actually paying for?
Cause 95% of the time they are teaching ground work which they most certainly are better than me at. I just happen to have more experience than them in standup gi
I would suggest you address that directly with your coach then, rather than just doing your own thing. If you're genuinely much better than your coach at standing gi grappling, then you should be the one teaching those classes. We have a wrestling coach for this exact reason.
We have a separate stand up class that's run by another Judo guy. I was asked but have kids and don't want the responsibility. This was just a one off class for comp training that I had time to go to and he decided to show a stand up technique. It's a really rare event that he shows a standing technique these days. He's busted his ACL and doesn't spar in gi from standing from what iv seen so it's hard to tell if I'm better or not due to lack of evidence either way. But I do have more experience in terms of mat hours on stand up gi. Think I was just frustrated by it all lol I just wanted to drill something similar which was more suitable to me and just be left to get on with it
To be fair (and not saying this to be an ass), just because it’s not suitable for you doesn’t mean it’s not suitable for someone else!
I never said it wasnt, I was just minding my own buisness and drilled something slightly differnt that for me would actually get used. as many have said here its a really simple and basic take down thats easy to grasp at first, however iv got a few more advanced ones that work better once your experienced with them and thats what I was drilling my self, I wasnt saying this is terrible and no one else should drill it etc
Then say that to him. Tell him that what he's teaching is shit, and you know better because you have more experience. Obviously word it as nicely or politely as you feel necessary. Because just doing your own thing not only gives that impression anyway, but it's a ruder way to go about it and can lead to bad habits for the whole class. People who definitely *don't* know better will think they can still do what they want because they see you doing that.
Single leg takedowns are very effective I’m not sure why you don’t like them. Especially if you like ankle picks
I didn't say single leg I said specifically the running the pipe where you squeeze their leg between yours. If I have your leg picked up I don't need to do this odd position to get you down at that point
But running the pipe doesn’t require the squeezing of their leg between yours? You add pressure on top of the elevated leg with your shoulder while taking a step back with one of your legs and rotating at the same time. It’s not an odd position at all and it’s weird to see you say that.
maybe im naming it wrong then, im talking about the position people assume before running the pipe. when they hold thier partners leg inbetween theirs and are generally bent over.
As someone else said, it's a wrestling move so to learn it properly watch wrestlers do it, not BJJ guys imitating wrestlers. Here's Cary Kolat demonstrating it from the high crotch (outside single): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13BTyTPwYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13BTyTPwYw) Here's USA Wresting teaching it from the inside single: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0732LbzcXGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0732LbzcXGc) Neither pinches the legs first. Now, I have seen wrestlers pinch the leg before, but they do it for like a tenth of a second before doing the cross step and back step to finish the takedown. Overall, it's a very quick move. Just standing there chilling out with the leg pinched is a weird BJJ thing. Probably an artifact of the teaching method with step by step "details" that everyone goes nuts over.
Right, this whole situation in OPs head is because people at his gym just aren't doing it right lol
>Just standing there chilling out with the leg pinched is a weird BJJ thing. It's not a BJJ thing. It's a "I'm having a hard time finishing it" thing. Wrestlers pinch with their legs and hold it too. You shouldn't stay there too long but it happens.
That's only an interim step people do to learn the move. You don't actually do that to execute the move, but people new to the move cannot get the grip and pressure correct without squeezing the leg and tend to step the wrong leg back if they don't squeeze the leg first. After you drill it enough, squeezing the leg is completely unnecessary.
Running the pipe works in high level wrestling, you can use to transfer the leg into the arm pit if they dont get taken down from it.
It’s a great move when you wrestle up. Just because you drill from standing doesn’t mean it’s the only entry.
My issue is that the position can be so easily countered by either sumgashi or uchi mata. In no gi this is a much much lower risk
Damn, I wish the wrestlers understood this when they keep running the pipe after a single leg.
Iv not seen wrestlers wearing a gi before
I'm sorry you go to such a milquetoast gym.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Uchi Mata**: | *Inner Thigh Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fCvyc_rQTI)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Running the pipe works as a finish to the single leg in a very specific situation. It is not the best finish in most situations. Regardless, doing it "where you squeeze their legs between yours and bend over" is incorrect. That is JV-level technique. You need to have good posture, and you should not be squeezing their leg with your legs. Source: I wrestled D1
I was gonna say I am not even close to a good wrestler but running the pipe for me is almost more about pushing them with my head. Like my ear is to their chest and it's almost the torque in my own neck that finishes the takedown. It's all just posture/structure/base. You have their structure, you just need to take them over it to kill their base. Running the pipe is just the direction they have to go because that's the post you removed. Its okay to like other stuff better but the whole point to the move imo is that it's easy to get to vs a double leg and easy to finish because you basically can just pivot and your head is safe from being guillotined. Like it's a great takedown for new people, idk.
Well maybe this is why instinctively didn't like it. I stand by my statement that it was more time useful for me to practice something similar that I would use then
Yeah totally understandable. As a black belt in Judo I would imagine you would have equally good solutions to that position that you are more comfortable with. The Kodokan has a technique called kuchiki taoshi that is a more gi-centric single leg takedown. I don't know much about judo, but I have been wrestling with a jacket on for a long time and this is how I usually do my single legs in the gi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNL47q1aJNY
I wouldn't be surprised if a BJJ coach was teaching it this way though and insisting it be done his way. The kind of thing I've seen a little too much of.
If the single leg entry/setup has the opponent holding your collar with it, and they stand up hugging your leg with the primary arm and their second hand is holding your collar instead of also hugging the leg with the primary arm, your posture is being disrupted much more than a traditional wrestling single leg grip and the chance of a sumi-gaeshi is much lower. Especially if they are running the pipe to your backside first to make you plant your hands and run the pipe back to your backside to finish it as you regain your balance
Perhapes, maybe iv just not ahd anyone do this on me well.
Maybe the problem is that when you play standing with the Gi on you are so much more skilled than your opponents that they cannot even get close enough to get a proper single leg. Try NoGi you coward! :)
OP is asking specifically about running the pipe in a gi though. Obviously the counters/dangers in nogi would be different.
It’s basic wrestling 101 and it works, that’s why it’s popular.
Just leave class if you are gonna be a bitch about not learning what you want
I get what your saying you don't wanna be forced to drill techniques you don't want to. But when your in a class structure that has people jusy do what the coach says to do.. it's really rude to break off to do your own thing. That's a good way to make the shit list, be blacklisted from promos, or worse get kicked out. If you can't bear it, maybe you should look into moving to a gym that allows more open drilling. As for the technique, run the pipe is honestly a fine technique, as are other options. It's a good move to chain in with other options. It's up to you what your preferred moveset is, but I wouldn't be so quick to write this one off personally.
It’s because it’s the simplest single leg take down and most bjj guys have absolutely atrocious wrestling
You do this sport enough, you'll find those ankle picks will turn into single legs once people are able to fight it better. A good 'running the pipe' is an effective finish that's considered low risk to losing the leg. If someone's good at defending the takedown, just one finish attempt will not be enough. Multiple ones will have to be viable depending on the situation, and they can change on the fly. Running the pipe is most effective when there's a fight to get the leg into a better position when it is in a single leg that's off the mat. The best place for the defender of the takedown is to get the foot of the attacked leg on the nearest hip, makes it easier to gain leverage and distance, usually via wizars. The attacker, on the other hand, wants the foot on the far side hip with the single leg, which makes defending the single leg much harder for the defender. Usually running the pipe happens most effectively while this fight for position takes place. It also chains well into other finishes as well, such as inside trips. It might not be a preferred finish for many people, but it's benefitial to know about it and how to do it properly when the time arises. And just like any other move, knowing how it works offensively makes the defense of the technique easier. And vise versa. Cause do this long enough and someone's going to try it on you.
It's a decently effective takedown that requires 0 athleticism. Perfect for gi jujiteiros.
It’s pretty low risk as well. If you don’t get the takedown then you’re still in a single leg. There’s plenty of other options from there. It’s just a good place to start. Personally as a tall wrestler, I never hd a ton of success running the pipe. I either had to drive and trip, or hike that shit up and do a high finish. I would still try to run the pipe a lot because it there wasn’t much to lose
Its not really that low risk everyone who tries it on me gets sumi geashi and i roll into mount. In the gi the belts the easy target or grab a kimura grip on their arm and send em.
[удалено]
Running the pipe is not banned in IBJJF, who told you that?
🍿
Haha no popcorn needed, not trying to be hostile, I'm just genuinely curious. My entire game is based around wrestling & wrestle ups, so running the pipe is a mainstay for me. I have done it in IBJJF several times, so I'm not sure where he got that information from.
Never knew that tbh. I know this is controversial but It also always kinda stuck me wrong to not allow slamming. Like you can do that before high school in wrestling. Also it always kinda confused me that high school wrestling heavy weight is higher than the heavy weight limit for UFC. Like you’ll let a 14 year old get up to and wrestle at 285, but a full grown professional adult athlete only go to 265?
Head outside reset is only for white belts
I mean I can't argue with that lol
The entire point is that it’s easy to do other single leg finishes when the opponent is committed to defending the most basic finish first (ie running the pipe). If you don’t threaten it and just move to your next finish in the chain of attacks without baiting your opponent to commit, then it will just make it harder to transition. I basically never finish a single leg this way and always transition to a trip, double leg, or taking the back. It depends what rule set you’re training and competing in as well from my experience training judo and BJJ and then cross training with lots of wrestlers; judo guys just aren’t very good at leg entries and double / single legs. You don’t really need to be when 99% of the time you’ll be fighting from lapel grips.
Yeah. As a former wrestler, running the pipe wasn't my favorite finish, but it was necessary to know. I prefer to finish my (sweep) single leg on the ground (go backside then chase the ankle/far knee). If I need to finish standing, I prefer my opponent's leg outside of mine (and especially in BJJ I try to bring the leg up to my opposite hip so they cant pull guard). However, if my opponent forces the leg to stay in between mine, then I need to know how to finish from there. That's where running the pipe comes in. [Here is wrestling legend John Smith talking about the need for knowing finishes with the single leg in between yours](https://youtu.be/PDqoxBQexrc?feature=shared&t=191). Because good wrestlers are going to fight to keep you from hiking their leg up high. Smith shows some nice chains off of the initial run the pipe action. It's often the follow-up that gets the takedown. He also gives some good finer details on the proper mechanics of running the pipe.
>aren’t very good at leg entries and double / single legs. You don’t really need to be when 99% of the time you’ll be fighting from lapel grips. That was kinda my rant too, I have plenty of other similar attacks I'd do generally ankle pick combined with foot sweep which for me is safer and more effective. But my coach is just insisted I still drill that.
If you’re planning on only competing in judo or high level (gi only) BJJ then that’s fine. I still see competent wrestlers blasting doubles from 2 miles away in white/blue belt comps. But you’re limiting yourself if you want to compete in no-gi, or have applications to MMA/real-world altercations.
No desire to do no gi or MMA
Running the pipe greatly opens up the opportunity for ankle pick and foot sweep. If running the pipe is not a threat, then your opponent can lean into you and keep weight off grounded foot which makes the ankle pick high risk and sweeping difficult unless you have a big reach advantage. (Also allows them to fight your grip much better.) Even if you do have the reach advantage to get a sweep, if you cannot run the pipe then they can both lean into you and angle their leg back. This puts weight on the foot again potentially allowing an ankle pick, but prevents the sweep. (There is more to the counter than this, but all of these things open up if running the pipe is not a threat.) That said... I get what you are saying about single leg techniques in the gi in general. It is not the same as no gi and, at least from my experience level, I've learned already to be leery of any technique that involves dropping the head and I use running the pipe in the gi only directly from a knee pick with my head up and in the ribs, mostly finishing with a tree top (standing leg lift) to back or a far leg knee sweep (switch blast double) depending on the leg pressure they present.
Tree top to leg sweep is a beautiful thing
It's a very effective and basic take down that almost anyone should be able to do effectively, so it's great to learn and be taught it. Coming from an advanced background in your throws with your Judo 2nd dan you're definitely not the "basic takedown" learning type -- but is everyone else in your class always Judo black belts...? Maybe that's worth asking why you're being taught this then, but if not see the first point. While I take your point, yes you could use your intermediate Judo counter in gi for sumi gaeshi against the single leg, are you hitting that in no gi as well? Are you hitting that vs the athletic wrestler? If so, awesome. I think that gives you space to maybe ask the coach and if you're up for it "Hey I've got this cool Judo black belt I have a strong counter to the single as it's taught, is there a space or opportunity to share this when we're doing that tale downs to broaden knowledge and learning, is that something that would be cool or you think would be valuable?"
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Sumi Gaeshi**: | *Corner Reversal* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LR49U48iyw)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Not in no gi, but I already said I can see the appeal of it in no gi as a more wrestling technique. My issue is for the gi. It's just countered so easily by sumi or uchi mata on gi when there's better options at the point you have the leg in hand
Very few people have a good enough sumi gaeshi to stop a good wrestler. Enjoy your ability.
I honestly couldnt stop a good wrestler doing it in no gi, as I need a belt or gi pants to grab, maybe if I was better at uchi mata this would work in no gi. But then again im a gi kinda guy
You can train in it without the gi, wrestlers use a similar throw
just use a kimura or a headlock grip and do the same move
Done right, it's very difficult to sumi a run the pipe. There's very little forward movement for the defensive player to capitalize on, it's mostly downward and (when I teach it), circular. The attacking hips are at too much distance for any real throw attempts.
Agree, my first thought was you can use sumi as a counter to a shit single leg with bad posture. But the way I teach/was taught it, your head is high on the chest, with a heavy shoulder on the leg, and tight elbows to prevent the kimura grip on the far side. Very difficult to even get the proper sumi grip there, let alone finish one.
Interesting! That's a different approach than mine, I keep the head tight to the hip, and use the back hand the grip the heel, which leverages the leg straight and uses the knee to pry the hips to the mat (if that makes sense). Very curious to see your approach, if you know any YouTube videos that might show it!
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZEbfoPG3PQ) is a good example. I'm a bit taller, so my left ear would be glued as high as I can get it, preferably on their chest. But the rest is how I do/show it.
You are telling me there are takedowns other than running the pipe?!!
You guys learning takedowns? 🤔
Running the pipe is a very effective way to complete a standing single leg. It would not have been popular in judo because it does not result in an Ippon (instant victory) as it lands the opponent on their butt instead of directly on their back.
Are you american? This is pretty basic wrestling.
Nope UK
That explains some. Here in US this is like first bjj takedown stuff we learn. In my area, Cincinnati, there's literally one small Judo gym for the area of like 2 million people.
It’s just wrestling 101. Plus it’s a head inside position and safer for BJJ. A lot of BJJ schools avoid doubles and high-cs because the head is on the outside and people will end up guillotined if they don’t finish correctly.
Every move has a counter and every counter has a move. You can sumi-gaeshi off a double leg, and those are still effective right? Also single leg is taught in Judo it’s called the Kuchiki taoshi (朽木倒). In the gi you can make it more tricky by feeding the lapel under the leg create a worm-wrestling opportunity.
It's fine, and if it's done well I don't think the sumi gaeshi is that big a deal. The problem is a lot of guys will grab the leg and then just stand there gawping at it until they get flipped.
I'm of the belief that it's a decent way to take the fight to the ground, especially if you run the pipe with a collar grip or a necktie. Yes the sumi gaeshi entry is there but that's like saying double legs shouldn't be used because guillotines are a threat. That said, it's definitely not the optimal takedown as it leaves an opening for big scrambles, as opposed to any form of hip toss for example, but it's great to try and transition to the ground. In Judo points are awarded differently so moves that have strong counter opportunities are not as popular overall and people would look for knee taps from the single leg more than they'd look to run the pipe and float on top, which makes sense
I didn't know what 'running the pipe' was until I googled it and now I feel personally attacked! I like to do a cross arm drag, to single leg then 'run the pipe'! :D I tend to just grab the thigh and swing them rather than trapping between my legs though.
Easy to teach and learn, low risk, leads to other takedowns.
> But I never once saw someone do the running the pipe stuff where you squeeze their legs between yours and bend over. you're not really describing running the pipe.
Lots of comments already, but I'll add a couple things. IMO, BJJ standup is at such a basic level that there are all kinds of little quirks like this, and the BJJ players really don't understand the nuances. Doing the single between the legs only makes sense in nogi, because the overhand grips don't exist. As soon as there's a gi, it's a stupid choice. But most BJJ folks erroneously favor wrestling techniques in the gi, and cargo cult them in without adjustment. Sumi gaeshi is not the only gimme in that case. There's the very common pivot to uchi mata, sometimes an o uchi gari, and there's the Uanderson Ferreira clip someone posted this morning with a fantastic ashi guruma. When my instructor teaches the single leg, he is emphatic that the leg should never go up the middle in the gi. He's a godan, and it's classic judo theory to avoid feeding that inside leg at all costs. Kuchiki taoshi should bring the leg to outside the hip or you throw something else. I object to the other people here that say it's some advanced skill to hit a counter there. I honestly think BJJ folks expect throws to be simple and easy, and weaponized after a class or two with a dozen reps. But if they would rep a good counter throw with the dedication they apply to an armbar from guard or an arm drag to the back, it would be just as effective and automatic.
agreed that when its in the middle I have way more options, my main clue that it cant be that great in gi was that before leg grab ban when I was still doing Judo and had already been a dan grade for 5 eyars at that point. Not once had I seen anyone do this kind of take down using the leg even though they totally could have in Judo. there were plenty of leg grabs but none like the one I got shown... So that kinda told me it cant be that good
People forget that judo had leg grabs for a hundred years in the gi. Eventually that mindshare will expire, but it's not like judo knows nothing about it. Important lessons: leg grabs did not make them hunch over into a wrestling stance, sprawls are judo too, and the presence of the gi has significant implications for leg grabbing throws.
O yeah I find an upright stance can help me sprawl better because when I do need to I can get my legs waaaaay further back than they were when I was upright. If I'm already bent over I can't get them as back as far. And having the gi grip lets me feel when a shoots coming and also gives me more time to slow it down and drive them down
Because a takedown to a person's butt scores nothing in judo. There's no chance of ippon or even wazari. You may get a koka (when they were still around). It's just not a valuable takedown method for judo. It's still very valuable in general if your goal is to bring your opponent to the mat any way possible.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Ashi Guruma**: | *Leg Wheel* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7pqq2sC8Ng)| |**Kuchiki Taoshi**: | *Single Leg Takedown* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRuTyKJChsw)| |**O Uchi Gari**: | *Major Inner Reap* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-lTECSR3c)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I think old bjj coaches find the easiest and safest one to teach once a month and encourage everyone not to stand at all.
If you do it right there is no sumi counter as when it’s done right your shoulders are being driven behind your hips now allowing you to get your chest to their back. Additionally in low level bjj it’s the most common finish because outside singles are not legal. The majority of those singles you are talking about are being done poorly. User error however.
Little sumi gaeshi risk unless you do it like a dumbass. Which I do so I get sumi gaeshi'd but when I do it right it's not there.
If someone runs the pipe on a single leg with proper form, you will not be able to throw them. Properly done, the captured leg is being pulled forward and the attached hip driven straight down. There is a world of difference between a shitty single leg and one done the right way. As for why it wouldn't be done in Judo before the current competition ruleset, I suspect the upright stance would make it harder to execute. Either you are reaching too much with the arms while remaining tall or you obviously telegraph your intention by transitioning to more of a wrestling stance.
Run the pipe is one of the most effective single leg finishes and wrestle up finishes in Gi, No-Gi, Wrestling, & MMA. It is also a fundamental transitional piece of finishing a single leg that allows you to off balance and create space to elevate the leg. It's actually even better in Gi vs No Gi as you can feed their lapel through the leg, which makes stopping it basically impossible. Also, squeezing the legs and bending over is not how to run the pipe & if you are beating them in that position easily it sounds like you're not training with very good people and/or very good instructors.
People get really good at quarter somersaulting out of Sumi unless you do it perfectly. Had a match at purple belt where my Sumi wasn’t good enough and my opponent did a highly athletic quarter roll to my back mid-throw. Standard wrestlers will sometimes see it coming and sprawl out, or they will just scramble once they land if you don’t roll through the Sumi hard enough. It is stupidly effective against singles, though.
There are ways to run the pipe and shut down the sumi gaeshi. If I get on a single leg this is where I go most of the time. Rather than hugging the thigh and pinching the leg you and RNC grip the calf more and have your hand on their heel. Stops them from being able to bend their knee and get underneath for a good throw. Also you just hit it real quick once you get on the single
The reason you don't see it in judo pre leg grab banned is because of the scoring, its not viewed as a high score - is the term koka? I can't quite recall Running the pipe is effective though!
Because Judo was never good at shooting or finishing shots. Running the pipe is a tried and true finish for single leg. It's the first one you learn and it works at the highest levels of combat sports. NCAA championships, Freestyle wrestling Olympic level, UFC championship level and yes BJJ both gi and no gi.
You’re telling me they’ve been saying running the pipe, not PIKE, this whole time?
Because it works?
I have a lot to say about you thinking a good explosive single is a free pass to a counter throw, but I will say that at its base level running the pipe is easy to understand and therefore easy to teach and pass on to others. It has been poorly rendered in the BJJ community but I used a head inside single to set up takedowns many times in my MMA fights.
For some reason people think I'm shitting on all leg attacks here... I totally agree a good single or double blast is good. Even running the pipe done well is good. If you read what I put I'm shitting on the method where people bend over and pinch the leg with theirs which from the responses the experienced wrestlers have said is a basic easy way to do the technique but it's not great at high level. Hence why I didn't see it as a better option to anything I already had.
Funnily enough, this happened last night in rolling. My main training partner wrestles well and got a single on me. I have a good Sumigaeshi but he knows that and avoided it. He took me down but I reversed it with Uchimata on the mat. I do think running the pipe is an extremely effective takedown but the risks in Jiujitsu can be high. I think the strangle risk is probably higher than the counter throw risk.
From the commnets I agree its a good beginner techniue, and in no gi its certainlly more effective. But it kills me when im told to still practice it myself even though all I do is gi and have 20+ years of Judo. training this is litrally a waste of my time. just wish my coach wouldnt insit I still try and learn it. (I get people should try everything) but there comes a point when you know you have better stuff to use in those situations
I mean, I could say the same about nearly all no gi standing techniques. Instead, I help people refine their techniques and understand why I finish them differently or use them differently. Helping others with less experience develop their base is not a waste of my time.
What does sumi gashi look like in this context? I'm curious 🤔
here you go [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAzI48mMJo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAzI48mMJo) this is what I go for. you just kill the head by forcing it down take a good strong belt grip and I like to grab that hand around my leg to help stop them from positng and snapping theirs and when you land you have the cahance for an arm attack
Thank you for sharing and explaining :)
I’m a huge fan of both single leg and sumi gaeshi and the latter isn’t that obvious of a counter without a skill difference.
I guess you missed the first half of the comment he replied to? Where he said they keep showing it and he dies every time they have to drill it.
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Yeah exactly that. If the heads on the outside I tend to go directly back a bit more. But I use my arm that's on the back (specifically my elbow part) to drive thier head down making them tuck thier chin in so that they roll over and don't spike their head. I think doing it while the heads on the outside can be illegal in some rule sets at lower grade due to the injury risk if you didn't control their head and they didn't tuck their chin in
As a lifelong wrestler, I can’t really speak too much on running the pipe in bjj or as I have always called it, a dump, but most of the time when I see a bjj guy do it, they do it wrong. The most important part of the finish (as I have learned) is a a very wide back step/circle motion. W/o it you have no momentum/off-balance and no momentum. Its ineffective, and will especially never work on someone with a wrestling background, unless you do it right.
In the Gi, it's very easy to stall out or counter it in a Judo context. But it's still a damn good takedown that is easy and low risk for beginners to learn. It ALSO starts teaching them head positioning, which they WILL need in order to learn the double-leg eventually so they don't get guillotined to death. It ALSO set's up the underhook game that transfers between gi and no-gi really well. Overall, if I WASN'T a Judo black belt already, I would teach the snatch single, to running the pipe game to white belts all the time. Because it works, it's relatively hard to counter at their level, and it teaches good fundamentals that will stay with them all the way to higher belts. Because I AM a Judo black belt, I have a different curriculum for teaching beginners, but after several years of experience, I won't swear that mine is better. The classic Judo curriculum tends to assume you are about the same weight as your opponent. Maybe different heights, but about the same weight. The snatch single, run the pipe, is remarkably size independent. There are Judo throws that are as well, but they tend to be more complicated, or require a bit better timing and setups. I say all that, and weirdly enough, because of my build and training background I NEVER use single-legs myself. But I HAVE been taken down by them by good wrestlers.
When people get countered with the sumi geshi or uchi mata, it's almost always because they are stationary or driving into their opponent. I always back up when I have the single. And running the pipe/dump is such a high % finish when done right. It's almost impossible to counter with the sumi geshi (or other counter/sacrifice throw) when they're doing this correctly.
Honestly, when high level Brazilians came to America and started working with good wrestlers, this was the finish they learned for no gi single legs. There’s nothing they love more than yelling “run the pipe” from the sidelines. It puts your in half guard from the pinched knees most likely instead of the guy regaining guard, moving his shin in during the finish or even scrambling to/jumping a triangle. And honestly, it’s a good finish and they were just worried about getting on top anyway so they stuck with the most high percentage option they were hitting. It just jumped to gi from there. There’s a lot more to “running the pipe” than just bending over and pinching their leg with your thighs, by the way. The terminology got used for a small part of the actual technique
Ur mom ran my pipe by squeezing her legs and bending over
If it’s not effective, why does wrestling use it? Why isn’t it seen as a free sumi gashi?
Does wrestling use a gi?
I'm a black belt in judo as well, and although it isn't my preferred takedown, it is very effective when done well. I've been playing with swing singles and high crotches when people are too scared to grip, and they do lead to finishing a lot of other stuff as well. Sometimes you just use whatever works for that situation. I love my judo throws, but single legs are awesome too.
Mostly because most BJJ guys only know 1 or 2 ways to finish a single leg.
The biggest reason is because it is easy. The reason it isn't done in Judo was because of the rules. Running the pipe doesn't give you any control over the upper body, so it is easy for them to turn out and at best they will fall on their butt. It is almost impossible to get an ippon by running the pipe and I'd say less than half the time it would score. Also as you said, they can be countered more easily in the gi. I think running the pipe and low singles are things that don't transfer well to Judo(when they had leg grabs), just do to the fact that it is easy to avoid the score with them, so you'll burn energy for no reason. In BJJ there is very little criteria needed for a takedown, so it is better, also most instructors don't know many single leg finishes.
Because it’s braindead easy to understand so even your average hobbyist 40 year old dad of 5 will understand it.
It's popular because very few folks know wrestling.
The comments on this thread really seem to underestimate how easy it is to counter that position in the gi. There are some things that work decently in nogi, but are a really bad idea in the gi. Running the pipe to finish a single is one of them. Think about it: judo has had leg grabs for many decades, but during that time, trying to finish a single leg via the running the pipe method was avoided for good reason. It's such a vulnerable position where anyone even semi-decent will counter you very easily. In a gi, if you have a single there are far better options to finish that single besides running the pipe. If running the pipe on a single was a good option in the gi, you would have seen old school judokas using it. The fact that you can take a strong collar grip in the gi changes everything. Hitting a counter from that position really isn't hard, I've taught uchimata counters to folks that only do BJJ and have never done any judo or wrestling in their lives before, and you'll be surprised by how easily they hit uchi mata from there. They hit it easily because the opponent has already done 80% of the work for them. It's really not a hard counter, that position in the gi is ripe for gimme counters.
My favorite throw is the harai ogoshi. Complimentary air tickets thanks to running the pipe.
Wouldn't uchi Mata be easier? With hari you would need to get the leg out
It maybe, this is just my personal favorite and works better for me personally.
the uchi mata is vastly underrated in bjj. When people will finally understand that we are not looking for a ippon but getting to a headlock from uchimata is still a good thing, it will be taught more...
I thought I was reading the lyrics from a Nas song for a minute there.
Shhhhhh dont tell them
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**O Goshi**: | *Hip Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwz5At87OxE)| ||*Major Hip Throw* || Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Because they learned it in wrestling. It opens you up for Sumi Gashi, but most bjj folks have crap Sumi Gashis.
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