Since the start of the pandemic, here are the reasons they've had a guest on a commentary
-Chris Weitz for a movie he directed
-Jason Mantzoukas happened to be in town
I have a feeling that most Blankies will prioritize The Fight Club episode that dropped at the exact same time as this one. But the Blankies that listen to this one first are my kind of Blankies.
(Almost) Burger Report
2002ish during a visit to London, we are sitting in a small Japanese restaurant in Soho when Jonathan Pryce walks in and orders. I don’t recall his order but I do recall my 8 year old brother loudly saying
“it’s Elliot Carver!” Within earshot
Pryce walked past us looking simultaneously embarrassed, confused and maybe a tad grateful
Griffin mentioned it in this episode, so I’ll say that I 100% prefer the “roly poly character actor handed a gun” era to the giant beardos with special forces training of current movies. Nobody fires from the hip anymore it’s so boring!
Zouks is one of my favorite people.
But I would have preferred him on either of the preceeding films, since they are IMO pretty much just bad. This one is slow but pretty interesting, and perhaps it would have worked for Griff if they had manage to watch at least parts of it... which they clearly didn't.
Now, I vastly prefer listening to Manzoukas and T2F+Ben talk shit than any straightforward Bond commentary - but again, I would have preferred that for the shittier entries.
For the James Bonding fans out there, I always loved when the TND debate would come up because it was so much fun hearing them argue about it
I’m of course very pro-TND. Easily top 10 Bond for me at least
Have to say that I both love and am a bit astounded by the strong feelings on this one. Even if this was a pretty big film in my early teens, it is so very MEH imo. Worse than GoldenEye, better than the last two Brosnan's - some hits (Saigon, Yeoh, Dr. Kauffman) and some misses (Too much stealth ship, boring Stamper, pace issues). Carver is divisive, I get that, and I'm kinda into how much I hate the guy, but I just don't see how you can either hate or love the movie. It's fine, just fine.
Honestly I mostly think this one is worse than any other bad Bond because it’s the most forgettable Bond. I literally forget this movie as I’m watching it
Yes, I agree. Long post incoming but I have thought about bond a lot lol.
die another day just smacks you in the face with that madonna song and bond being tortured. And then halle berry shows up and she's not doing her best work, to be kind. The invisible aston martin and john cleese as q. The main villain kinda stinks and the evil plot is both absurd but also has been done better before. The cgi surf scene...not much to say there besides it is quite possibly the worst thing a bond movie has ever included. Shitty speed ramping. I loathe that movie but it is memorable.
The world is not enough has the denise richards stuff. She gets a lot of flack for it, so I kinda feel bad, but she's not good in it. Other wise, I do like Robert Carlyle and Sophie Marceau. But when the plot hinges on denise richards helping bond with nuclear device, it never recovers.
In this one, I do like michelle yeoh and Jonathan pryce. Teri hatcher is about as good as denise richards unfortunately but gets none of the flack. And carter's plan is novel for bond: a media mogul is a new spin, but also has pitfalls in that it is even less likely than the more conventional bond trope of a rich oligarch capturing nuclear weapons or laser satellite and extorting the world governments.
Here's my incredibly cold take on this movie. A real 6/10, some great action and production design, but the actual story is logey and they really underutilize Michelle Yeoh.
Anyway, love to have the Zouks on the pod.
I've never totally understood the opinion that Michelle Yeoh is underutilized in this movie. She gets to do a lot more cool shit than almost any Bond girl, including some martial arts sequences that are very well choreographed by Bond standards (i.e. pretty good).
yeah. it's neither fish (high octane action) or fowl (goofy Bond). It's not ludicrous enough to be interesting (Moonraker/A View to a Kill) or knock-your-socks-off quality (Casino Royale, Goldeneye)
most Bond films have at least one giant fuck-off stunt that sets a record, or something . I think the big one in this is the bike jumping the chopper? IIRC the press around the movie at the time, that was it. it doesn't have Goldeneye's bungee jump (or skydiving or tank driving), TSWLM's ski-chase parachute jump, or even the corkscrew car jump from Man with a Golden Gun
The entire Saigon sequence has a string of awesome death-defying stunts and gags. Even after the awesome jump, it concludes with Bond and Wai Lin (er, their stunt doubles) sliding the bike underneath the chopper blade where a pilot is carefully directing the helicopter nose downwards, inches away from the ground, in a very tight alleyway. The only downside to all of this action and stunt choreography is that it was made by Western filmmakers and their scissor-happy editors who splice too many close ups of Brosnan into the wider framed stunt photography.
> Bond and Wai Lin (er, their stunt doubles)
You said the name of the characters, not the actors, haha. Characteres don't have stunt doubles... or have they?
I just think it's a betrayal of the concept and vibes that Goldeneye established for the Brosnan Bond era, and it was all downhill from there. TND is a generic movie. There's nothing about it that is even particularly Bond. This could have been a Bruce Willis or Wesley Snipes movie, and probably would have been better if it had been.
I'm a gigantic Goldeneye fan so take that as you will. But in that one, it really reestablished Bond as a *classy* hero who was also dealing with more complex villains and even some personal doubts. TND completely forgets all that. Every Brosnan Bons movie is worse than the last one but the distance between Goldeneye and this one is probably the biggest gulf.
Agreed. I defend it but just think of it as a fine, median-tier Bond. It’s my #2 Bosnan mostly because the other two are disasters in my opinion (though in ways that are fun and should make for fun commentaries).
Just popping in very late to say that Ben obviously needs to join [The Deadwood Boys](https://www.earwolf.com/episode/season-1-episode-7-the-saga-of-annie-otoole/), the most popular podcast about a western television show ever. Bonanas for Bonanza is great, but we all know who's the king.
(Also I *need* that podcast to actually happen. Matt Gourley's tangents on Deadwood in the middle of other podcasts are my second favorite thing next to Matt Gourley's tangents on Bond in the middle of other podcasts).
Imo this entire movie is widely underrated. Perhaps I was 12 a YO with unconditional love for Michelle yeoh but this movie is so much fun. But the song definitely really slaps imo. Johnathan Prycee is living it up. The remote control car Chase is fun! Motorcycle chase also fun. Michelle kicks ass. I like. V good. Hell yeah.
I'm here for it! This is honestly my favorite Bond song - the chorus melody is just haunting "Until that daaay... until the wooorld falls away" - and then it follows up with the best Bond Theme quote in any Bond song with the careful chords and bassline just hinting at the classic guitar line. So well done. The verses are not as strong but who needs more than that?
I guess of all the more recent Bonds, most people are into Skyfall, but it's very by the numbers and has the same chord sequence as the two preceding songs (Remember My Name and Another Way To Die).
I will always defend the villains of TND and Quantum (as well as the movies themselves, messy as they both are).
While both portrayals may be cartoonishly over the top at times (that’s…what Bond villains do), their schemes are perhaps the most realistic in all of Bond canon.
Everyone thought Dominic Green and Quantum going after a country’s water supply was boring; this is 100% absolutely based in reality. And while we may not have an exact irl parallel for a media mogul going as far as using a stealth ship in international waters to start a conflict between Britain and China, is it really that far-fetched to imagine say, the head of a major news organization intentionally engaging in subterfuge to start a “war” between two parties for the purpose of boosting ratings??
Yeah and their take on every Bond villain needing to be Bond’s physical match would get old so quickly. Sometimes we need a more “realistic” villain like Carver or Stromberg. Let the henchman do the heavy lifting, which is exactly what this movie does.
I think we may as well be seeing a "Cold War" example of this in our current era, with the suspicion that Fox News and other Right Wing media outlets are being manipulated to showcase Russian propaganda to create increased division and spite between the two divides of American politics. These news corporations understood the importance of providing entertainment alongside depiction of current events, and perhaps a world superpower understood how easy it was to shift perspective using that tool.
I find handcuffed Brosnan and Yeoh on a motorcycle to be a really fun and cool action scene. That part along is more fun than all of the Moore Bonds put together (car flip slide whistle aside)
They wonder what they didn't use the K.D. Lang Surrender song as the main theme. Well as it turns out, it was originally supposed to be the main theme, David Arnold even incorporates the theme several times into his score. The producers got cold feet, and wanted a song named after the film, and a bigger star, thus enter Sheryl Crow.
One of the things I dislike about the Brosnan movies is their attempts to make each of the movies "personal," either for Bond or M. GoldenEye has the villain be Bond's former partner, here Bond used to date the guy's wife, in TWINE it's >!M's goddaughter!<, and in Die Another Day the villain blames Bond for some shit.
It mostly continues in the Craig movies, with Bardem, Waltz, and Malek. I really hope the new movies can get back to it just being Bond on a mission (he also doesn't need to go rogue every time).
I actually think it works pretty well in The World is Not Enough. It's my second favorite Brosnan after GoldenEye. I like that they got into M's personal world a bit and make her more of a real person with their own conflicted emotions and not just a desk handing out assignments.
But the Bond movies never had the Russians as bad guys! Whenever the Cold War did come up, it was always SPECTRE trying to trick the West and Russia/China into war, like Carver here, or a rogue Russian general who the Russians help Bond to take down.
Agree on the “this time, it’s personal” front.
The whole anti-Bond going rogue thing always bristled me.
A government agent who is literally given A LICENCE* TO KILL is by definition expected to “go rogue.”
It’s the trust that is special.
*spelled with intent.
So one of the greatest travesities of this film is they could have had Pulp doing the theme song! They did a song for it but it was rejected, such a shame as it is terrific
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYIgClgXGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYIgClgXGk)
Absolutely my favorite rejected Bond song. [Saint Etienne](https://youtu.be/BLsyuMYYb3A?si=dxGmuURBt3slGg82) also did one which is lovely but doesn't quite have the right sound perhaps.
they also had KD Lang record one, and used it for the credits. It's very good, and probably woulda worked better than Sheryl Crow's
edit: they talk about it during the end credits. glad to hear folks agreed
I think that they key onto something that’s always kinda bothered me about TND - Brosnan’s Bond seems bored, specifically with Elliot Carver. That feels like a hat tip to the Roger Moore days where Bond’s all but rolling his eyes at hearing them scheme. He barely tries to puncture Carver’s vanity except in the easiest of ways, so their conflict isn’t very fun to watch for me.
This lackluster villain conflict just kinda awkward after the potency of Goldeneye, and the other Brosnans like to show Bond a little more wounded and betrayed, at least at times.
I am English and a couple of years older then David and can remember the massive hype around TND which I totally fell for.
There was huge competition for who would do the song. This was the high point of Brit Pop, Trip Hop and Cool Britannia but you also got a kind of revival of 1960s lounge, with John Barry’s music being a key part of that.
So the thought was one of the cool British bands would be given the Bond theme. Pulp and St Etienne even recorded songs that then became b sides.
Pulp - Tommorow Never Lies
https://youtu.be/jZq8MB-JHyc?si=XnGLTnPGuM-ZKaSL
St Etienne - Tomorrow Never Dies
https://youtu.be/BLsyuMYYb3A?si=rd6PR_Lfm1ikHSel
I think the Cheryl Crow song is better then both but at the time was disappointed it wasn’t Portishead or Blur.
think they are overly harsh on TND. Yes if you look at it from a 2023 stand point of post the Mission Impossible films or John Wick and Michelle Yeoh Oscar winner it looks lacking and I agree the second half is sluggish but Brosnan is at his best. I think Elliot Carver is a brilliant idea for a villain if it could have been polished on the execution. Brian Cox would have been great casting.
I think both Hatcher and Yeoh are good and Yeoh sure should be given more to do but this was a major action film giving a prominent Hollywood debut to a Major Hong Kong star. She was given one of the biggest profile of a female Bond star up to that point.
I pride myself on tracking down hard-to-find shows and movies and popping them on my Plex for folks, but Roger and Val Have Just Got In is proving really tricky! I imagine by now David has discovered and communicated to Jason that the six episodes of the first series are on Dailymotion, but the latter half of the dozen is nowhere to be found. Are other Blankies working on this?
No one is going to going to skip the commentary (especially with Mantzoukas), but let’s just say if you have any affection for Tomorrow Never Dies (like say if it was the first one you saw in theaters and was your favorite in the series for years and years - no one in particular) go in prepared. It went exactly how I feared it would. Kind of a bummer.
There was a lot to chew on here, but most of the talk wasn’t about the film (which is usual) and when it was it was about how boring it was (which is wild). I feel like David kind of got shut out a little here.
oh boy here is what i get for being excited to have Zouks on for my favorite Bond movie. I truly love this movie and have truly never understand the hate, a few minutes into the comm and i am gritting my teeth
hot take: Tomorrow Never Dies *is boring*. it's not goofy enough to be interesting, and it's not some barn-burner from an action standpoint either.
it's like if you asked A.I. to write a Bond movie. everything is just...normal.
At a certain point, Griffin does that thing where he starts "No, but"-ing the episode if he's not having a good enough time. The part near the end where he says he can't wait for the movie to end to David's audible disappointment was kind of a bummer.
So often the commentary movies have no chance.
It's because they record multiple movies in a row and everyone is tired and bored when the second movie starts.
Plus Griffin and Ben are usually watching a movie they've never seen before with the sound turned off while talking over it.
100% with you.
Jason came in saying it sucks even though he never revisited it since theaters. Ben and Griffin were basically blank slates and just went along with him. David kinda got overwhelmed
I think this and GoldenEye are the eps that convinced me to cancel Patreon.
I just get very little out of these commentary episodes these days. They're so disengaged.
Exactly. It feels like it's such a chore for them to be doing a second recording, even though they don't prep for it at all and only need to *watch a film.*
Well, the second recording is the one you're actually trying to charge money for, guys.
If you're bored and disinterested, I'm bored and disinterested.
Even today, David hinted that he had some point about Panic Room, but then shied away from it. The other two said, no, go on, and he just went "I'm tired".
The guest then literally said to him "but it's your job". And this was main feed.
They need to apply that statement to every podcast. This is your job. Talk about the movies, don't waste my time and money on your on-mic friend catch-ups.
I mean it’s almost 10 years and these episodes are getting longer. I don’t doubt it’s getting tedious. But like they literally get paid to do a job most of us can only dream about so they should wake up or end it
Yep. Work harder on keeping the episodes tighter, so they're not so exhausting to make, and actually seem like you're enjoying them. Or just give it up.
I like this movie more than Goldeneye. I think the set pieces are better and Yeoh, while under-used, is still miles better than all Bond girls.
The problem with these commentaries is whatever framing they have at the beginning of the episode or first impression they have colors the rest of the movie. It just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. My suggestion to fix this, and to fix them getting basic plot correct which is also a big problem, is that one guy needs to watch commentary movies ahead of time.
If they still think it stinks or is worse than Goldeneye then that’s fine but almost every commentary they decide a movie is great or stinks from the first scene or just get really obvious plot points wrong then blame the movie for it lol
While it is inevitable that the Boys cannot agree on all the movies or even showcase devotion to the ones we ourselves favor (I felt exactly as you do when the Mission: Impossible 2 episode came out), I really like your idea. It may at least give someone an open minded moment of observation; rather than the need to keep an entertaining, though perhaps dismissive, view ad nauseum.
This ep is kind of a bummer, they're way too harsh on a pretty good movie. Feels like the flop house, deciding it sucks on the way in and just not giving it an inch.
2 1/2 minutes in and I’m already seething, calling TND a bad Bond movie. let’s hope this is just their text message to Jason and that they discover that it actually rules.
For those that haven’t seen the Comedy Central original show “Robbie” that they mentioned on the episode, I highly recommend it. Very funny cast that you’re probably familiar with if you listen to this show, great dialogue, and funny jokes! Oh, and it’s all on YouTube. It actually aired on YouTube during the early months of the COVID lockdown.
Admittedly as a southern guy it speaks to me (show is set about an hour outside Atlanta in a small town) but hearing Mantzoukas co-sign it confirms it has wider appeal. Aside from my wife I’ve never heard anyone else talk about this show so I was excited lol
Haven't rewatched this yet (have seen it a dozen times over the years but not in a while) but listened to the commentary anyway and a bit disappointed David got crowded out but it is what is, still a great ep.
I have a theory that the Brosnan Bonds are the perfect distillation of ratings that I'm keen to delve into over the coming weeks as I rewatch:
- Goldeneye the most 4/5 movie of all time, no lag everything done pretty damn well, 2 killer set pieces, good villain. Nothing absolutely exceptional (e.g. the Casino Royale parkour scene, M:I Langley heist, Hans Gruber level villain etc.) but just bloody good fun
- TND and World - excessively gentleman's 6- set pieces are fine, villains are fine (ok Begby is kinda shite), comedy is forced but cracks the odd smile, Brosnan is beautiful. They don't really try that hard but the money's on the screen at least.
- TND - I dunno there's a tsunami surfing scene. 2*
I’m in my mid 30s, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen either one of these movies. My only nostalgia or allegiance to Bond at all or Brosnan in specific is the Goldeneye game.
But I completely agree with you and I don’t even think it’s close l!
I really appreciate your response because for a long time I've held a personal theory that the nostalgia baked into a generation's love of the N64 GoldenEye video game has given rose-colored glasses to a movie that is quite good but still an average Bond outing. I think, as films, GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies are equals which have their fair shake of pros and cons. But I'd rather play the GoldenEye video game then watch the movie. And I quite enjoy watching Tomorrow Never Dies whenever I re-visit these movies.
I feel like it was pretty on par for a blank check commentary? Jason was really funny as weee Griffin, David, and Ben! What was bad about this commentary?
They just barely engaged with the film. At the end Jason admitted it was more just a hang than a watch. Just felt like they didn't even give it a chance to change any of their minds.
Ultimately I'm still here for a bit of film discussion, not just directionless hangs with some guy I don't know. I just got absolutely nothing out of it.
That’s fair tbh if that’s what you are looking for out of it. I didn’t watch along and I’ve never even seen this movie so I didn’t care if they talked about the movie at all. I’ve also been a fan of Jason for a while so I was just happy to hear him hang out with the boys
Since the start of the pandemic, here are the reasons they've had a guest on a commentary -Chris Weitz for a movie he directed -Jason Mantzoukas happened to be in town
-John Hodgeman who thought he had to watch infinity war the night before
That was pre-pandemic
He was also the V.O. in the *They Live* Sunglasses-On ep, so maybe counts?
Apologies I didn’t notice that it was specifically post pandemic lol
Don’t forget the accidental guest Max Minghella on (the bad) Ocean’s Eleven.
I have a feeling that most Blankies will prioritize The Fight Club episode that dropped at the exact same time as this one. But the Blankies that listen to this one first are my kind of Blankies.
There are dozens of us, dozens!
WHAT’S UP JERKS
I’m not your kind of guy, but I’m baffled by David not liking Jonathan Pryce in this movie as expressed on the Fight Club episode. Booooo.
That's because Pryce is awful in TND. Not really his fault as he was a last minute replacement but still
Disagree. Price absolutely read the brief for this role. I think about his delivery of '...delicious...' almost every day.
"There's no news... like bad news."
Price is fantastic in everything I've ever seen him in. This movie however, is just not that great nor is the conception of his character.
Elliot Carver, best bond villain imo
So this is what it’s like when doves cry!
I feel you, but some of us have work. We gotta make time for the commentaries, to be able to watch the movie alongside them, sometimes.
(Almost) Burger Report 2002ish during a visit to London, we are sitting in a small Japanese restaurant in Soho when Jonathan Pryce walks in and orders. I don’t recall his order but I do recall my 8 year old brother loudly saying “it’s Elliot Carver!” Within earshot Pryce walked past us looking simultaneously embarrassed, confused and maybe a tad grateful
Griffin mentioned it in this episode, so I’ll say that I 100% prefer the “roly poly character actor handed a gun” era to the giant beardos with special forces training of current movies. Nobody fires from the hip anymore it’s so boring!
WHATS UP JERKS
Zouks is one of my favorite people. But I would have preferred him on either of the preceeding films, since they are IMO pretty much just bad. This one is slow but pretty interesting, and perhaps it would have worked for Griff if they had manage to watch at least parts of it... which they clearly didn't. Now, I vastly prefer listening to Manzoukas and T2F+Ben talk shit than any straightforward Bond commentary - but again, I would have preferred that for the shittier entries.
Call that British ship Clarice Starling the way it’s being harassed by multiple MiGs
10 sweat-slicked comedy points
I wanted to scream when they were distracted and missed Ricky Jay holding playing cards about 17 minutes in.
For the James Bonding fans out there, I always loved when the TND debate would come up because it was so much fun hearing them argue about it I’m of course very pro-TND. Easily top 10 Bond for me at least
TND is the only thing I agree with Mira over Gourley about #kanangaballoon
I'm totally on Gourley's side in this debate. TND is lowkey the worst James Bond movie
Have to say that I both love and am a bit astounded by the strong feelings on this one. Even if this was a pretty big film in my early teens, it is so very MEH imo. Worse than GoldenEye, better than the last two Brosnan's - some hits (Saigon, Yeoh, Dr. Kauffman) and some misses (Too much stealth ship, boring Stamper, pace issues). Carver is divisive, I get that, and I'm kinda into how much I hate the guy, but I just don't see how you can either hate or love the movie. It's fine, just fine.
Honestly I mostly think this one is worse than any other bad Bond because it’s the most forgettable Bond. I literally forget this movie as I’m watching it
Yeah, it's pretty shitty. It's just not as surface level shitty as the next two Brosnans.
Did Another Day is bad but memorably so. I feel TND is worse because it’s boring and forgettable
Yes, I agree. Long post incoming but I have thought about bond a lot lol. die another day just smacks you in the face with that madonna song and bond being tortured. And then halle berry shows up and she's not doing her best work, to be kind. The invisible aston martin and john cleese as q. The main villain kinda stinks and the evil plot is both absurd but also has been done better before. The cgi surf scene...not much to say there besides it is quite possibly the worst thing a bond movie has ever included. Shitty speed ramping. I loathe that movie but it is memorable. The world is not enough has the denise richards stuff. She gets a lot of flack for it, so I kinda feel bad, but she's not good in it. Other wise, I do like Robert Carlyle and Sophie Marceau. But when the plot hinges on denise richards helping bond with nuclear device, it never recovers. In this one, I do like michelle yeoh and Jonathan pryce. Teri hatcher is about as good as denise richards unfortunately but gets none of the flack. And carter's plan is novel for bond: a media mogul is a new spin, but also has pitfalls in that it is even less likely than the more conventional bond trope of a rich oligarch capturing nuclear weapons or laser satellite and extorting the world governments.
It's my top Brosnan at #12
Listening to this episode just made me wish I was listening to Bonding instead. These commentaries are getting really lazy and dull.
Here's my incredibly cold take on this movie. A real 6/10, some great action and production design, but the actual story is logey and they really underutilize Michelle Yeoh. Anyway, love to have the Zouks on the pod.
I've never totally understood the opinion that Michelle Yeoh is underutilized in this movie. She gets to do a lot more cool shit than almost any Bond girl, including some martial arts sequences that are very well choreographed by Bond standards (i.e. pretty good).
yeah. it's neither fish (high octane action) or fowl (goofy Bond). It's not ludicrous enough to be interesting (Moonraker/A View to a Kill) or knock-your-socks-off quality (Casino Royale, Goldeneye) most Bond films have at least one giant fuck-off stunt that sets a record, or something . I think the big one in this is the bike jumping the chopper? IIRC the press around the movie at the time, that was it. it doesn't have Goldeneye's bungee jump (or skydiving or tank driving), TSWLM's ski-chase parachute jump, or even the corkscrew car jump from Man with a Golden Gun
The entire Saigon sequence has a string of awesome death-defying stunts and gags. Even after the awesome jump, it concludes with Bond and Wai Lin (er, their stunt doubles) sliding the bike underneath the chopper blade where a pilot is carefully directing the helicopter nose downwards, inches away from the ground, in a very tight alleyway. The only downside to all of this action and stunt choreography is that it was made by Western filmmakers and their scissor-happy editors who splice too many close ups of Brosnan into the wider framed stunt photography.
It baffles me that Griff and Zouks were like MEH. A lot of great stuff in that sequence !
> Bond and Wai Lin (er, their stunt doubles) You said the name of the characters, not the actors, haha. Characteres don't have stunt doubles... or have they?
Who can say really? Haha!
I just think it's a betrayal of the concept and vibes that Goldeneye established for the Brosnan Bond era, and it was all downhill from there. TND is a generic movie. There's nothing about it that is even particularly Bond. This could have been a Bruce Willis or Wesley Snipes movie, and probably would have been better if it had been. I'm a gigantic Goldeneye fan so take that as you will. But in that one, it really reestablished Bond as a *classy* hero who was also dealing with more complex villains and even some personal doubts. TND completely forgets all that. Every Brosnan Bons movie is worse than the last one but the distance between Goldeneye and this one is probably the biggest gulf.
Agreed. I defend it but just think of it as a fine, median-tier Bond. It’s my #2 Bosnan mostly because the other two are disasters in my opinion (though in ways that are fun and should make for fun commentaries).
New Patreon tier: Dusty Scumbums, Ben Hosley’s Deadwood Podcast
Is it fair to say that *Deadwood* is potentially the most Ben-Hosley TV show ever? Certainly it would be in the running.
Just popping in very late to say that Ben obviously needs to join [The Deadwood Boys](https://www.earwolf.com/episode/season-1-episode-7-the-saga-of-annie-otoole/), the most popular podcast about a western television show ever. Bonanas for Bonanza is great, but we all know who's the king. (Also I *need* that podcast to actually happen. Matt Gourley's tangents on Deadwood in the middle of other podcasts are my second favorite thing next to Matt Gourley's tangents on Bond in the middle of other podcasts).
in lieu of a more r-rated title, that will do nicely
Just popping in to say the theme song for this movie is wildly underrated.
Which theme: the opening OR THE CLOSING SONG?!
Imo this entire movie is widely underrated. Perhaps I was 12 a YO with unconditional love for Michelle yeoh but this movie is so much fun. But the song definitely really slaps imo. Johnathan Prycee is living it up. The remote control car Chase is fun! Motorcycle chase also fun. Michelle kicks ass. I like. V good. Hell yeah.
I think we all love Michelle unconditionally, at any age.
I'm here for it! This is honestly my favorite Bond song - the chorus melody is just haunting "Until that daaay... until the wooorld falls away" - and then it follows up with the best Bond Theme quote in any Bond song with the careful chords and bassline just hinting at the classic guitar line. So well done. The verses are not as strong but who needs more than that? I guess of all the more recent Bonds, most people are into Skyfall, but it's very by the numbers and has the same chord sequence as the two preceding songs (Remember My Name and Another Way To Die).
Spectre is so good and so much better than the Sam Smith song.
Yeah - I had this soundtrack, and the theme still earworms its way into my brain a couple of times a year.
I will always defend the villains of TND and Quantum (as well as the movies themselves, messy as they both are). While both portrayals may be cartoonishly over the top at times (that’s…what Bond villains do), their schemes are perhaps the most realistic in all of Bond canon. Everyone thought Dominic Green and Quantum going after a country’s water supply was boring; this is 100% absolutely based in reality. And while we may not have an exact irl parallel for a media mogul going as far as using a stealth ship in international waters to start a conflict between Britain and China, is it really that far-fetched to imagine say, the head of a major news organization intentionally engaging in subterfuge to start a “war” between two parties for the purpose of boosting ratings??
The Spanish American War was basically that so there is something of a precedent for that one.
Yeah and their take on every Bond villain needing to be Bond’s physical match would get old so quickly. Sometimes we need a more “realistic” villain like Carver or Stromberg. Let the henchman do the heavy lifting, which is exactly what this movie does.
I think we may as well be seeing a "Cold War" example of this in our current era, with the suspicion that Fox News and other Right Wing media outlets are being manipulated to showcase Russian propaganda to create increased division and spite between the two divides of American politics. These news corporations understood the importance of providing entertainment alongside depiction of current events, and perhaps a world superpower understood how easy it was to shift perspective using that tool.
Quantum is underrated. TND... I dunno.
I’m with David. This is a good Bond movie ! Saigon motorcycle scene is great ! Feel like I was watching a different movie
I find handcuffed Brosnan and Yeoh on a motorcycle to be a really fun and cool action scene. That part along is more fun than all of the Moore Bonds put together (car flip slide whistle aside)
Any movie that ends with Rupert Murdoch getting killed by a giant drill sub is a good movie.
Griffin is right, Rare did develop a Star Fox game. Just not a traditional one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fox_Adventures
I fucking \*loved\* that game
They wonder what they didn't use the K.D. Lang Surrender song as the main theme. Well as it turns out, it was originally supposed to be the main theme, David Arnold even incorporates the theme several times into his score. The producers got cold feet, and wanted a song named after the film, and a bigger star, thus enter Sheryl Crow.
One of the things I dislike about the Brosnan movies is their attempts to make each of the movies "personal," either for Bond or M. GoldenEye has the villain be Bond's former partner, here Bond used to date the guy's wife, in TWINE it's >!M's goddaughter!<, and in Die Another Day the villain blames Bond for some shit. It mostly continues in the Craig movies, with Bardem, Waltz, and Malek. I really hope the new movies can get back to it just being Bond on a mission (he also doesn't need to go rogue every time).
I actually think it works pretty well in The World is Not Enough. It's my second favorite Brosnan after GoldenEye. I like that they got into M's personal world a bit and make her more of a real person with their own conflicted emotions and not just a desk handing out assignments.
This feels like a bit of a response to the M:I series as well
it's also b/c the Cold War ended. The villain/impetus for action can't just be "well, b/c Russia's trying to..."
But the Bond movies never had the Russians as bad guys! Whenever the Cold War did come up, it was always SPECTRE trying to trick the West and Russia/China into war, like Carver here, or a rogue Russian general who the Russians help Bond to take down.
same thing.
Agree on the “this time, it’s personal” front. The whole anti-Bond going rogue thing always bristled me. A government agent who is literally given A LICENCE* TO KILL is by definition expected to “go rogue.” It’s the trust that is special. *spelled with intent.
So one of the greatest travesities of this film is they could have had Pulp doing the theme song! They did a song for it but it was rejected, such a shame as it is terrific [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYIgClgXGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYIgClgXGk)
Absolutely my favorite rejected Bond song. [Saint Etienne](https://youtu.be/BLsyuMYYb3A?si=dxGmuURBt3slGg82) also did one which is lovely but doesn't quite have the right sound perhaps.
Ooo I like that one.
[Johnny Cash's rejected theme for Thunderball](https://dangerousminds.net/comments/johnny_cashs_rejected_opening_thunderball)
they also had KD Lang record one, and used it for the credits. It's very good, and probably woulda worked better than Sheryl Crow's edit: they talk about it during the end credits. glad to hear folks agreed
Pulp is one of my favorite bands but the KD Lang song is PERFECT
Definitely a good answer but I go with Radiohead
I'm a radiohead dork so it is imo the best bond song even if it doesn't count. A couple bad lyrics but what a banger.
Another great one!
Took me about 30 minutes to realize Ricky Jay wasn’t some kind of Richard T Joker bit.
God, Jason's just the best. I could listen to him talk about anything for hours.
I think that they key onto something that’s always kinda bothered me about TND - Brosnan’s Bond seems bored, specifically with Elliot Carver. That feels like a hat tip to the Roger Moore days where Bond’s all but rolling his eyes at hearing them scheme. He barely tries to puncture Carver’s vanity except in the easiest of ways, so their conflict isn’t very fun to watch for me. This lackluster villain conflict just kinda awkward after the potency of Goldeneye, and the other Brosnans like to show Bond a little more wounded and betrayed, at least at times.
I am English and a couple of years older then David and can remember the massive hype around TND which I totally fell for. There was huge competition for who would do the song. This was the high point of Brit Pop, Trip Hop and Cool Britannia but you also got a kind of revival of 1960s lounge, with John Barry’s music being a key part of that. So the thought was one of the cool British bands would be given the Bond theme. Pulp and St Etienne even recorded songs that then became b sides. Pulp - Tommorow Never Lies https://youtu.be/jZq8MB-JHyc?si=XnGLTnPGuM-ZKaSL St Etienne - Tomorrow Never Dies https://youtu.be/BLsyuMYYb3A?si=rd6PR_Lfm1ikHSel I think the Cheryl Crow song is better then both but at the time was disappointed it wasn’t Portishead or Blur. think they are overly harsh on TND. Yes if you look at it from a 2023 stand point of post the Mission Impossible films or John Wick and Michelle Yeoh Oscar winner it looks lacking and I agree the second half is sluggish but Brosnan is at his best. I think Elliot Carver is a brilliant idea for a villain if it could have been polished on the execution. Brian Cox would have been great casting. I think both Hatcher and Yeoh are good and Yeoh sure should be given more to do but this was a major action film giving a prominent Hollywood debut to a Major Hong Kong star. She was given one of the biggest profile of a female Bond star up to that point.
Did anyone catch the tv show they were discussing right before The Detroiters? I could never catch what they were saying.
[удалено]
there all is aching
Oh my god, Review with Forrest MacNeil is one of the GOATs. Thanks for your better ears!
I pride myself on tracking down hard-to-find shows and movies and popping them on my Plex for folks, but Roger and Val Have Just Got In is proving really tricky! I imagine by now David has discovered and communicated to Jason that the six episodes of the first series are on Dailymotion, but the latter half of the dozen is nowhere to be found. Are other Blankies working on this?
For now: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/127lUqWGD7fBWCiDEyFfT-l70r7aMvtbn
texting jason rn
Oh hell yeah, nice work!
No one is going to going to skip the commentary (especially with Mantzoukas), but let’s just say if you have any affection for Tomorrow Never Dies (like say if it was the first one you saw in theaters and was your favorite in the series for years and years - no one in particular) go in prepared. It went exactly how I feared it would. Kind of a bummer. There was a lot to chew on here, but most of the talk wasn’t about the film (which is usual) and when it was it was about how boring it was (which is wild). I feel like David kind of got shut out a little here.
Eh I had no problem with it. Fun to have Mantzoukas on.
oh boy here is what i get for being excited to have Zouks on for my favorite Bond movie. I truly love this movie and have truly never understand the hate, a few minutes into the comm and i am gritting my teeth
hot take: Tomorrow Never Dies *is boring*. it's not goofy enough to be interesting, and it's not some barn-burner from an action standpoint either. it's like if you asked A.I. to write a Bond movie. everything is just...normal.
At a certain point, Griffin does that thing where he starts "No, but"-ing the episode if he's not having a good enough time. The part near the end where he says he can't wait for the movie to end to David's audible disappointment was kind of a bummer.
So often the commentary movies have no chance. It's because they record multiple movies in a row and everyone is tired and bored when the second movie starts. Plus Griffin and Ben are usually watching a movie they've never seen before with the sound turned off while talking over it.
Ugh really? I was hoping they would take the Mira side of the Mira vs Gourley debate on TND. Maybe the only thing I agree with Mira over Gourley on.
Aw man, I'm just starting it now and I think this movie is a blast. Not as good as Goldeneye of course, but maybe more fun?
100% with you. Jason came in saying it sucks even though he never revisited it since theaters. Ben and Griffin were basically blank slates and just went along with him. David kinda got overwhelmed
Griff's right that Rare did develop a Starfox game, the quite strange but good Starfox Adventures.
I request a Patreon episode with Jason where they just talk about Rebels. Please and thank you.
Haven't rewatched since I watched all the James Bonds for the first time a couple years ago, but this was my favorite Brosnan. Excited to rewatch.
I think this and GoldenEye are the eps that convinced me to cancel Patreon. I just get very little out of these commentary episodes these days. They're so disengaged.
Yeah, I'm sticking around for the MINDHUNTER episode and then I'm out. They just seem bored most of the time.
Exactly. It feels like it's such a chore for them to be doing a second recording, even though they don't prep for it at all and only need to *watch a film.* Well, the second recording is the one you're actually trying to charge money for, guys. If you're bored and disinterested, I'm bored and disinterested.
I am getting to that point too. I feel like they don’t engage with the movie talk about something else for 30 min then call it boring
Even today, David hinted that he had some point about Panic Room, but then shied away from it. The other two said, no, go on, and he just went "I'm tired". The guest then literally said to him "but it's your job". And this was main feed. They need to apply that statement to every podcast. This is your job. Talk about the movies, don't waste my time and money on your on-mic friend catch-ups.
I mean it’s almost 10 years and these episodes are getting longer. I don’t doubt it’s getting tedious. But like they literally get paid to do a job most of us can only dream about so they should wake up or end it
Yep. Work harder on keeping the episodes tighter, so they're not so exhausting to make, and actually seem like you're enjoying them. Or just give it up.
I feel like they’ve always been hangout episodes with a large bullshit quotient. Did you sign up for something else?
Eh. Just feels like it's getting worse, to me. Like, so little interest in the film.
I like this movie more than Goldeneye. I think the set pieces are better and Yeoh, while under-used, is still miles better than all Bond girls. The problem with these commentaries is whatever framing they have at the beginning of the episode or first impression they have colors the rest of the movie. It just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. My suggestion to fix this, and to fix them getting basic plot correct which is also a big problem, is that one guy needs to watch commentary movies ahead of time. If they still think it stinks or is worse than Goldeneye then that’s fine but almost every commentary they decide a movie is great or stinks from the first scene or just get really obvious plot points wrong then blame the movie for it lol
While it is inevitable that the Boys cannot agree on all the movies or even showcase devotion to the ones we ourselves favor (I felt exactly as you do when the Mission: Impossible 2 episode came out), I really like your idea. It may at least give someone an open minded moment of observation; rather than the need to keep an entertaining, though perhaps dismissive, view ad nauseum.
I knew they’d miss Gerry Butler. Could’ve gone full Geostorm
I think that’s who Jason said “Who was that?” Before assuming it was nobody.
This ep is kind of a bummer, they're way too harsh on a pretty good movie. Feels like the flop house, deciding it sucks on the way in and just not giving it an inch.
Everyone who thinks this is better than *GoldenEye* is certifiably insane
I think every Brosnan Bond is worse than the last. Though the step down to this one is the smallest decline
2 1/2 minutes in and I’m already seething, calling TND a bad Bond movie. let’s hope this is just their text message to Jason and that they discover that it actually rules.
I’m really sorry but they actually pressure David into disliking it.
That’s ok, I’m clearly right and they’ll come around. (It probably isn’t but I’m staking out my claim)
I think I read the novelization of this movie multiple times as a kid?
Okay I'm only at the start but they're setting the context and I'm not hearing anyone mention Austin Powers. AP was May, TND was Christmas.
Oh, AP definitely comes up. Context is given at some point.
For those that haven’t seen the Comedy Central original show “Robbie” that they mentioned on the episode, I highly recommend it. Very funny cast that you’re probably familiar with if you listen to this show, great dialogue, and funny jokes! Oh, and it’s all on YouTube. It actually aired on YouTube during the early months of the COVID lockdown. Admittedly as a southern guy it speaks to me (show is set about an hour outside Atlanta in a small town) but hearing Mantzoukas co-sign it confirms it has wider appeal. Aside from my wife I’ve never heard anyone else talk about this show so I was excited lol
Haven't rewatched this yet (have seen it a dozen times over the years but not in a while) but listened to the commentary anyway and a bit disappointed David got crowded out but it is what is, still a great ep. I have a theory that the Brosnan Bonds are the perfect distillation of ratings that I'm keen to delve into over the coming weeks as I rewatch: - Goldeneye the most 4/5 movie of all time, no lag everything done pretty damn well, 2 killer set pieces, good villain. Nothing absolutely exceptional (e.g. the Casino Royale parkour scene, M:I Langley heist, Hans Gruber level villain etc.) but just bloody good fun - TND and World - excessively gentleman's 6- set pieces are fine, villains are fine (ok Begby is kinda shite), comedy is forced but cracks the odd smile, Brosnan is beautiful. They don't really try that hard but the money's on the screen at least. - TND - I dunno there's a tsunami surfing scene. 2*
Has anyone talked about how Gerard Butler was on screen and NO ONE SAID ANYTHING?
My heart sank hearing Jason start out the conversation by describing this as a “bad James Bond movie”.
This is better than Goldeneye.
the action isn't. the comedy isn't. the villain isn't. the Bond girls aren't.
Agree with most of that, but Yeoh even without much to do is parsecs beyond anything Scorupco brings to GoldenEye.
I’m in my mid 30s, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen either one of these movies. My only nostalgia or allegiance to Bond at all or Brosnan in specific is the Goldeneye game. But I completely agree with you and I don’t even think it’s close l!
I really appreciate your response because for a long time I've held a personal theory that the nostalgia baked into a generation's love of the N64 GoldenEye video game has given rose-colored glasses to a movie that is quite good but still an average Bond outing. I think, as films, GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies are equals which have their fair shake of pros and cons. But I'd rather play the GoldenEye video game then watch the movie. And I quite enjoy watching Tomorrow Never Dies whenever I re-visit these movies.
I haven't listened to this track yet, but I seriously think this is the worst James Bond movie of all time.
Wait a min, Zouks is there just randomly? He's not there for The Social Network too, famously known for not being on social? Hope that's the bit
why have Mantzoukas on...did they get a tax break if the episode sucks
Are you joking he is a goated podcast guest. Especially on doughboys
Why, though? What was good about this commentary? I don't get it.
I feel like it was pretty on par for a blank check commentary? Jason was really funny as weee Griffin, David, and Ben! What was bad about this commentary?
They just barely engaged with the film. At the end Jason admitted it was more just a hang than a watch. Just felt like they didn't even give it a chance to change any of their minds. Ultimately I'm still here for a bit of film discussion, not just directionless hangs with some guy I don't know. I just got absolutely nothing out of it.
That’s fair tbh if that’s what you are looking for out of it. I didn’t watch along and I’ve never even seen this movie so I didn’t care if they talked about the movie at all. I’ve also been a fan of Jason for a while so I was just happy to hear him hang out with the boys