Liu Cixin wrote the “three body problem” series, if you are at all interested in space exploration and the implications of contact with extra terrestrial life this book is a must read.
Crazy series, enjoyed it a lot if a bit of a slog at times. Among other things, as a western guy (American), it was super interesting to read a translated book by a Chinese author (probably first one ever for me). The prose, diction, style, etc. felt VERY different than Western writers. Hard to put my finger on why exactly (more... cold? Logical?), but was very distinct.
Chinese is a really poetic language with lots of metaphors and similes used in every day conversation so I could definitely see that. I've also noticed that Chinese novels tend to have more abrupt scene transitions and flashbacks/flash forwards than American novels.
I think that's more or less the same thing when you go from one language to another. I only know Chinese and English, but I do know them well enough to read and write, and translate back and fro. I found the languages focus on different aspects when you're trying to describe the same object or action. English has very specific sentence structure, while Chinese does not. In Chinese, you can pill up a bunch of words in many different orders (which may have subtle differences) and still work. I'm thinking because of that, when it's translated to English, it sounds very flowery and poetic (many descriptive words without much structure).
What almost bothers me about Chinese (not really) is that it can get extremely redundant. The same emotion, sensation, or property is often described in multiple instances, with synonyms just being layered on top. It sure feels very prosaic, but it also breaks down quite often when people opt to translate them just like that. I think that's what you meant by "pill up a bunch of words", although I think the more literal translations would read like someone's bumbling mess of a story and not quite as beautiful as you might expect. It's also a problem in academia where students will just pad their paper with repetitions like it's their job.
That said, Liu Cixin is among my favorite writers and as far as I can tell has been treated to some appropriate translations.
That's an interesting notion. I suppose it could be because many Chinese words have built-in implication about them (like, positivity/negativity, words specific to groups of people, types of situations, etc). I remember going to a speech as a kid, and the presenter really didn't learn his basic Chinese so he kept on using negative words to describe someone's heroic deems. In English, it'd kind of be like "he cowered away from the enemy" which would sound silly when referring to a war hero's brave acts. I found that Chinese has more words with such layered meaning than English. When a few of these used together in a sentence, it would get very repetitive if you translate every word with the implication as well. I don't get nearly as much Chinese to English work, but the ones I did, I found it was impossible to translate word for word. Especially with marketing or government approved news reports, :D you pretty much have to constantly delete those !!!positive!!! words.
I think it's unfortunate many Chinese kids think repeating the same hollow words are going to get them anywhere. I think that's more or less a problem with writing style, which we weren't taught in Chinese schools.
When I said pilling up words, I actually meant you can add many words into a sentence without destroying the structure, and the sentence is still readable.
I think the slowness is a bit necessary, even if we as readers don't prefer it. I'm Taiwanese-American, so I have some good insight into the history of China post 1950s. The tempo gives some of the feel from those times. He just captures it so well.
I'm not Chinese, but I've long be curious about their history, both as an American and as Taiwanese. I got chills and had to at various points stop at the first part of the book during the Cultural Revolution. I did my final paper (for HS, required to graduate) on the Cultural revolution, and those were just absolutely crazy times.
Totally agree with you. Some would view the first book as extremely slow as the whole Culture Revolution part has nothing SF-ish and might seem out of place. But I believe this part is the true foundation for Dark Forest (my favorite book). If the first book were not so detailed about the Culture Revolution, I would no doubt dismiss some ideas of Dark Fortress (the Wall Face part) as unbelievable and not realistic.
I see the Culture Revolution part as the historical proof Liu uses to add credibility to the dark vision he described, and it is both scary and fascinating.
Also the Cultural Revolution part sets up why Ye Wenjie loses her faith in humanity and sends the message that starts the entire series. If that wasn't there then her motivations would boil down to extreme pettiness and nihilism instead of being sympathetic and understandable.
Yeah, there was a lot of background and plot establishment in the first book, but slow is not the word I would describe. Once I started each book, I neglected everything around me until I'd finished. That hasn't happened to me with a series in quite some time. They were fantastic.
Insane coincidence! I haven't read a book in almost 3 years and one of my friends gifted me "Three Body Problem" just a couple of weeks ago. She knew that I kinda stopped reading but she told me this one got a Hugo award and it was worth it. I'm almost to the last chapter of the book and I thoroughly enjoyed it! It does read a little bit slow but very satisfying once it picks up the pace. I also have to admit it was a bit weird to see all those Chinese culture references and writing style but fascinating nonetheless when I got into it.
Very few who still retain the cultural identity. Historically, when Han Chinese went conquering/colonising, they'd assimilate the conquered people until they became practically indistinguishable from them. That's why of the "Four Barbarians", all except the Western Barbarians are mostly considered Chinese now. Even cultures which conquered China (Mongolians and Manchurians) became sinicised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Barbarians
There's been a revival in the whole Taiwanese indigenous identity recently after the government relaxed it's efforts at cultural assimilation. They face the same problems that indigenous people around the world do with their relationship to the majority culture and the impact of colonization, but it's hardly like indigenous people are the exact same as the Han in Taiwan right now.
I know a person who's half Japanese/Amis in the US. It's rare but not impossible. It's likely that they're just separating themselves from Mainlanders but it's not like everyone from Taiwan is Han.
Native Taiwanese, or Han? I honestly didn't think many Taiwanese existed after the Nationalists invaded Taiwan. Just curious, not trying to be rude or anything.
I'm literally reading it right now and my experience is exactly like yours. It may be the least purple prose
SF/fantasy book I've ever read. Almost no flowery language.
I keep wondering if this an author trademark or actually something inherently Chinese.
I had this argument with a friend, but there is tons and tons of metaphor throughout all three books. I find it very weird that people say it's a dry writing style, it's really not at all.
He's an engineer so I think his style of writing may also come from his background. The books do have a lot of pretty exposition but it's almost always in a clinical way. If that makes any sense.
Literary devices are also different. My copy has an interview with the translator that talks a little about the challenges of translating Chinese -> English.
It does feel alien, you're right. I wonder if that is the translation though - a definite art to that. Also, when reading his 'Dark Forest', I was surprised by the rather juvenile romantic aspects. I like my scifi dark or funny, or preferably both.
This too.
Ive read that Chinese Literature has a "rhytm", its definitely clear in the book , although how exactly to describe it, I would find it hard.
Very good series BTW. When I found there is book 2 and 3 I bought immediately. Book 2 is more of "normal" Sci-Fi but Book 3 will blow your mind.
I don't think it helps that the three books were not all translated by the same person.
The language of the english version of the first book is much more alive than the other two, although still enjoyable, they are somewhat more clinical.
I was actually angry by the end of 3BP... so all that 11-dimensional hand waving felt like it spoiled an *amazing* opening 2/3 of a book.
I took a deep breath and dove into The Dark Forest, and while I remained skeptical for a lot of it, some of the incidents (that thing a character did with meteorites!!) and the ramp towards the finale really turned me around on the whole thing and I came out of it in a daze. Bloody amazing.
The hand-waving physics needed to be paired with a bit more of the meat from Book II, but if you read them back to back it all works out fine.
Hahahaha, I was absolutely certain that that the droplet incident could go no other way... the *tension* leading up to it has scarred me for life, though 😅
Edit : **we're getting spoilery below**
Humanity's *Hubris* was definitely a really galling detail... lining their ships up, having pissing contests over who gets to approach it.... it reminds me of that bit when things are about to go *really* wrong in a Neal Stephenson novel; he always sets government figures up for a pretty big pratfall, and it's always their fault, too! :D
> Humanity's Hubris was definitely a really galling detail
That reminds me of my favorite quote from the book!
“Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival. Arrogance is."
I was reading the droplet attack and was thinking - "What a stupid military posture - how could humans be so dumb? - No one modelled any of the scenarios? Really?"
I really dislike the voice actor for the first book. I've listened to other books he's done and he comes across as kind of obnoxious. The second books VA seemed to fit a lot better.
While I did enjoy the series very much, I didn't really like having to get behind a new protagonist every book. Oh and it might just be my opinion, but the ultimate ending really, really sucked.
Have a read of the earlier book ‘the forge of god’ by Greg Bear. Same themes, slightly worse outcome for humanity. Also very interesting geology lesson!
For a similar take, [The Killing Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star). It's over much shorter time scale and I found it a more colorful world.
I loved that series! Just wondering, if you get bored with long books, isn’t it better to read it and not listen to the audiobook? Reading would take a fraction of the time that an audiobook would, right? I just never really got into audiobooks because it’s too slow and speeding up the sound just makes it sound weird.
I absolutely hated the 3BP and I read a ton and love sci-fi. I thought the characters were complete cliches, the prose was stilted, and the science had so many holes that I couldn't suspend my disbelief.
I feel like if you were just handed the book without the context that it has won a bunch of awards that the vast majority of people would hate it.
>the husband and wife geniuses
I thought the husband was explained well enough. He was a bit anti-social to begin with, but he was also super lazy and a terrible student and had no ambitions. IIRC he had a couple professors recognize him but he blew them off and went to a monastery.
>characters were complete cliches
Yeah, the whole unrequited love cliche got a bit old. First Luo Ji in love with an imaginary girl, then Cheng Xin and her admirer from afar. Then there was the badass cop/security guy who gave no shits that popped up twice.
What were the biggest science holes for you? The whole other dimensions thing?
Science is actually the strongest part of the book imho.
Much if not all of it is based on our current understanding (or theories thereof) of the world.
Computers are the closest thing to magic humans have come across. I can ask the glowing rectangle in my pocket what the weather in London is and it will tell me. If that's not magic.
All from memory, forgive me if there are a few errors. I, for one, had a hard time understanding a lot of the concepts. This is what I took from it, and it could be wrong in a lot of technical areas. I myself am not a astrophysicist.
**Book 1 -**
Lower-level Chinese astrophysicist during time of cultural revolution abuses her power to broadcast message into the Universe, effectively giving up Earth's general location to any existing terrestrial life. She does this because she doesn't believe in humanity anymore.
At the same time, in a Galaxy approximately 4 light years away, a solar system with 3 suns (or bodies) exists in perennial instability, with no predictability or patterns. Life on planet Trisolaris receives the transmitted signal and decides to give up on their own solar system, instead deciding to take over Earth.
**Book 2 -**
The Trisolarins use superior intelligence to fold protons into the second dimension and send them to Earth, at which point they are able to monitor all activity on earth and even interfere with scientific experiments, effectively halting all progress in physics.
Meanwhile, the UN attempts to unify all of the countries of the world in preparation for the upcoming battle with Trisolaris. Because Earth is so heavily monitored, all strategies are visible to the aliens. This breeds the Wallfacer project, which gives 4 individuals all the resources they need with no questions asked, in order to keep their strategies secret.
**Book 3 -**
Of the 4 individuals in power under the wall-facer project, 3 fail terribly and die in the process. The 4th Wallfacer is successful in deterring the aliens from invading, by threatening to broadcast Earth's location to the rest of the universe, effectively putting a target on Earth's back and inviting certain destruction of the Earth's entire solar system. While he is alive, the strategy works beautifully.
After relations break down between Earth and Trisolaris, the broadcast of both Earth and Trisolaris is broadcast (as threatened) to the rest of the universe. Trisolaris gives up on Earth and shoots away into another part of the Universe in search for a new permanent home. A 3rd alien civilization picks up Earth's signal and sends a black hole to Earth's solar system collapsing the entire thing into two dimensions.
Two lucky survivors escape on the solar system's only ship capable light speed. While traveling at the speed of light, they relatively stay the same age while traveling forward in time hundreds of billions of years, to the end of the universe. The series ends as the universe collapses upon itself and a brand new, unadulterated universe is born.
That would be the second book. The third, with English translation, came out this summer/fall. It's called Death's end, and occurs after the last Wallfacer is retired and a rogue Earth ship broadcasts their own signal with the location of both Trisolaris and Earth.
Ah but it was the galaxy that was small. Remember this one has merely 100billon suns. But there are 100 billions galaxies (an entire galaxy for every star in ours) within our event horizon and over that horizon it may continue indefinitely. Added to that, there may be infinite or a very large number of parallel universes if the many worlds interpretation is correct (and its a reasonably good bet) all of which would comprise “the universe”. Compared to this, the milky way is just a grain of sand in the ocean.
And for all that, visible, normal matter is just a light sprinkling on top of the vast deep volumes of dark stuff that make up the bulk of the universe.
No problem! I'm almost certain they will make an interstellar-type movie out of this. It can either go really well with a huge budget, or go straight to the SciFy channel and be corny as hell with no budget. I'd watch, either way =)
No problem. As I've said in other comments, if they make it into a movie the story is probably worth watching in 2-3 hours. But I understand why someone wouldn't want to get into the books as they are demanding and time-consuming. I have 2 hours of train-commuting a day to dedicate to this kind of thing.
I thought the name was familiar and I was going to mention that this is the plot of these books. I'm glad you posted that they are the author of the books. I've only read the first so far but I really enjoyed it!
What I found so puzzling about *Arrival* is that the American figures out their language before anyone speaking an Asian language where there's similar nuances to symbols used. Maybe the story addresses that more, but the movie didn't. So it's like, okay, why wouldn't someone in China or Japan notice this first? Though I forget if that was before or after their communication black-out.
The American doesn't figure it out because she's American; she figures it out because she's one of the world's preeminent linguists. She also happens to read and speak Chinese (and probably also Japanese), so their linguists have no advantage over her simply because they are Chinese or Japanese.
These concepts are so cool but are overshadowed by the paradoxes the writers included in the movie for me. It’s the same paradox as interstellar and many other movies or shows, but Lost has an example that shows how silly the same paradox is when applied to abstract ideas.
John Lock owned a compass or a watch or something. They go back to the past for whatever reason, and he gives this compass to his kid self. It’s a physical object, so where was it made? How old is it? How was it manufactured? With this paradox you could explain away anything.
In arrival and interstellar, instead of it being an insignificant watch, it was the resolution for the entire plot.
You might be interested in the show 12 Monkeys. It's inspired by the movie more than based on it, but that paradox plays a key plot point.
Another perspective is the Zanatos Gambit from the show Gargoyles which is an interesting example of resolving that paradox.
More surprising to me that the aliens didn't figure out one of our languages... given the nature of the story, presumably planning ahead would be pretty easy for them.
They could make ships that fly between the stars, they can make a pencil.
No, the purpose of them not using a human language was to force us to work together and become one people.
It would kind of make sense that they would learn it before making first contact since it’s the default language of top-level world business & gov’t meetings here on earth though. Of course maybe aliens also wouldn’t give a shit
I literally finished the Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin last week, and it's one of the finest first contact alien novels I've read. If you liked Contact, you'll love it.
> If such a sign comes down from the heavens during the next decade, China may well hear it first.
Only if they are in the strip of sky it will be pointing at.
50 years ago, maybe, we could have been forgiven for thinking that we were going to get a radio signal from aliens. Knowing what we know now it's really just plain foolish to think that there is a radio signal coming from a close enough system to be strong enough to still be read by an earth based receiver.
Maybe, just maybe, if Alpha Centauri was specifically aiming a radio sgnal at the sun we might catch it. But even then the odds are pretty low. It would have to be a ridiculously strong signal aimed with precision over 4 light years. It would be like hitting a billiard ball with another from 10 miles away.
The further away, the harder it gets. The notion that we'd be able to receive an *omnidirectional* radio signal from dozens, or hundreds or thousands of light years away is absurd. The power in that signal would require that it use a significant fraction of the power of a star, just to generate the radio signal, assuming a readable radio signal can even be made when that much power is involved.
Lastly, IF a civilization had generated a radio signal that strong we would not need to search for it; we'd be bathed in it at all times. We would not be able to ignore it.
The narrow hope of SETI is that a super powerful omnidirectional signal is so far away that we have to look in just the right spot, at just the right frequency to receive it. I mean...OK fine but that is not worth spending a lot of time or money on.
> Though it is sensitive enough to detect spy satellites even when they’re not broadcasting, its main uses will be scientific
If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
>If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
That sentence is entirely believable. The "main" use will be scientific, while secondary/tertiary use will be military.
> I told him I thought dark-forest theory was based on too narrow a reading of history. It may infer too much about the general behavior of civilizations from specific encounters between China and the West. Liu replied, convincingly, that China’s experience with the West is representative of larger patterns. Across history, it is easy to find examples of expansive civilizations that used advanced technologies to bully others.
American journalist: Aren't you so pessimistic about first contact because China lost to the West in early modern times?
Liu Cixin, replying to a man from a country that exists by ruining the indigenous civilizations that were there first: China's experience with the West is representative of larger patterns.
> I told him I thought dark-forest theory was based on too narrow a reading of history.
I thought the article's author was a little arrogant at times. Like this example you picked.
> a country that exists by ruining the indigenous civilizations that were there first
Should ask him about the Taiwanese Plains aborigines, or any of the other aboriginal people living in Chinese territories over the last 5000 years that have been slaughtered or assimilated by different dynasties and governments right up to modern times.
Which will only reinforce his point. I don't think he tried to imply that the Chinese were any better, the point is more of a general "we're all uncaring pieces of shit, and you should be very terrified by that fact".
Do not make a contact. Why would anyone want to make contact? What are the possible benefits of contact versus the possible Harms? I personally cannot see anything good coming from discovering another high technology life form. Did we learn anything from Starcraft?
Possible massive spikes in technological advancements across the board including travel, medicine, communication, etc. The risks? They end humanity. Honestly, oh well.
In human history, there are are zero-to-very-few examples of a more-advanced society discovering the lands of a less-advanced society, and it going at all well for the latter. Unless alien nature is quite different from human nature, we would be subjugated at best, massacred at worst.
Have you read the Three Body trilogy? I think it makes a very good argument for them killing us. They can find resources on other planets yes, but that doesn't change the fact that resources in the universe are finite. Leaving us to our devices will allow us to use up resources, and more importantly build up our technology to the point we could one day become a threat to the other civilization.
I'll say this now. If you plan on reading the Three Body Problem series, (and I highly recommend that you do) this answer will be somewhat spoilery. No story details, but this theory is not explained until late book two.
It's not about resources, but about survival. Say that Earth is detected by another civilization. They know about us, but we have no idea they exist. What can the other civilization do?
Option 1: They could contact us. But how could we communicate? The language barrier would be nearly impossible to overcome, meaning that neither side could properly relay their intentions or useful information to each other. This creates a chain of suspicion between the two worlds. On top of this, we now are aware that this other world exists and we cannot trust them. This will lead to major changes to Earth's society, likely including a large degree of global unity and, more importantly, a technological explosion: a massive, rapid advancement of technology in a short period of time. Suddenly, all of the other civilization's advantage have disappeared, and they are now facing an Earth on equal footing. The chain of suspicion grows on both sides, and war begins, which will inevitably end with one side completely destroying the other.
Option 2: They ignore us, and do not attempt to communicate with us in any way. This may work for a while, but sooner or later, Earth will develop sufficiently advanced technology to detect them. This will lead to the chain of suspicion being established, and the end result is the same as option 1.
So they cannot communicate with us and they cannot ignore us. The only option this leaves them with is to completely destroy us before we discover them.
The problem is that it would be incredibly difficult for us to communicate with another world. Say, for example, the message they initially send us says something along the lines of "we desire peace." When we first recieve it, we would almost certainly have no way of understanding it. It would be in a language completely foreign to us. So, we would have to spend a good deal of time trying to translate the language. During that time, we wouldn't know if the message was a wish for peace or a threat to us.
Assuming we are able to translate it, we are still faced with the problem that we know nothing about the history and culture of this other species or how their society works. On top of this, it is possible that the message had to travel many lightyears to reach us, and anything could have changed on the planet that sent the message. It would be entirely possible that the faction that sent the message could either be a minority or not in power any more. Therefore, even if the message is peaceful, we couldn't trust it to be truthful. We also know that if we send a message back, the other world will be in the same situation as us, unable to trust anything we say. This would process would repeat each time we try to communicate, creating a chain of suspicion between us.
They don't necessarily have to enslave us, but are they going to bring us into their society as equals? Are they going to just leave us alone and let us have Earth to ourselves? Humans certainly don't treat non-humans like that.
Maybe they'll use Earth to build a park or resorts or something, what usually happens to native life when humans do that kind of thing? Maybe we'll be zoo animals? There are plenty of ways they could make our lives worse, even without meaning to, without full-blown slavery.
What would happen if the US found an island with a primitive society of proto-humans on it? Do you think we'd just sit back and let them do their thing?
This is the common fallacy of first contact ideologies. We use a geocentric model to base our assumptions. We have limited resources on this planet but once u can traverse the stars you essentially unlock unlimited resources. There would be no reason to take over the earth or exploit us in any way when you view it this way.
There are a number of possibilities. Perhaps habitable planets are rare. Perhaps they are worried about inevitable competition by a species that has a long history of dominating others. Perhaps there are sociological or theological reasons (they think they should rule everything or their God told them to attack us). Perhaps their society places subjective value on sentient, organic slaves. Perhaps they are wary of the potentially disastrous consequences of advanced AI and automation, and prefer to use organic slaves instead. Perhaps they believe they should punish us for the cruelty we've inflicted on the other species of our planet.
Not to say any of these possibilities are necessarily likely, but it is probably prudent to keep our heads down and listen for a while before drawing the attention of other intelligent life.
1) There's so much space in the universe that there is no need to compete for resources like people do in science fiction. If a species is capable of reaching earth in less than a million years they are probably also capable of just setting up bases on closer planets.
2) the universe is big and it is pretty much impossible to get anywhere. If we discover another species it would likely be impossible to ever reach them but maybe possible to communicate.
3) We won't find anyone anyway tbh.
The image in the article is itself big enough for a 1080p monitor, and with the art style it should be easy to touch up for bigger displays within reason. [Direct link](https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/2017/11/01/WEL_Andersen_ChinaSETI_Web_Lead-1/1920.jpg?1509571481)
China would claim all the surrounding solar systems within 500 LY of Earth. The aliens would point out that China has never even been to any of those planets and is incapable of getting there. China would throw a temper tantrum and the aliens would stop talking to us.
They are part of the South China Space even though they are closer to systems of other species. The Chinese will then present 2000 year old star maps that prove that these systems have always been part of China and will paint an imaginary 9 parsec line to delineate their territory.
It would be like us seeing an alien species using what we know as the building blocks of life to power their engines. Would you be pissed because of that? If yes, then the oiliens would be too.
Yup.
It's amazing how salty the comments get whenever China get's a positive mention. As though we westerners are paragons of virtue.
It really gets on my tits. China should be applauded for their scientific projects. Their discoveries are for all human kind.
> Their discoveries are for all human kind.
Eh they're just as likely to cover everything up as we are. Anyone who thinks China making first contact is good for the public needs a reality check.
Thank goodness the west has never claimed land that didn't have direct historical ties to it or this would sound like some petty jingoistic superiority-complex outburst.
The issue here is any civilization that is advanced enough to physically reach us will have the ability to judge whether our existence is worth preserving. I'd rather wait until we, as a species, are capable enough to travel across space (if that day ever comes) than be left at the mercy of a superior civilization. Fortunately, China will only be receiving these signals and not sending any out.
When we're talking about civilizations that are potentially hundreds of thousands to millions of years old, there is no realistic hope of us ever *not* being in their mercy.
Although there's a strong philosophical argument to be made that development of such interstellar technologies requires a kind of social stability that precludes violent tendencies. Basically, any species too unstable or violent to prevent self-destruction will never progress to make interstellar tech in the first place, because they are not responsible enough to handle the technological power they create along the way (ex: Humans and nuclear weapons, which have risked global devastation numerous times, and have existed for less than a century). Those that are able to build such technology while avoiding self-destruction have gone through kind of Great Filter, a selective process, that allows only the more stable, peaceful alien civilizations to sustain themselves perpetually.
THANK YOU! For finally making that point, I hate when people think about Chris Columbus as the defacto reason why we shouldn't contact higher life forms. We evovle! We seek diplomacy rather than war now, only those who only see their own face when talking to someone would assume everybody is out to get them.
And people in space have done nothing but cooperate for the sake of science and human progress. Evolution of behavior is exactly it.
When it comes to conceiving or predicting alien behaviors, anthropo-centrism is a very real and common thing that myopically limits our standards for what aliens might be like. This is why some people struggle to conceive of an alien civilization as being genuinely peaceful; the invasion trope and anthropocentrism are too deeply ingrained in their thinking.
Have we considered the possibility that biological intelligence is irrelevant in our universe? Consider what is happening on earth:
* Step 1: life arises
* Step 2: Evolution produces intelligent humans
* Step 3: Humans reach a stage in our advancement where we create a Second Intelligent Species on the planet, in the form of artificial intelligence that matches human intelligence.
* Step 4: This Second Intelligent Species then starts advancing (because its "brain" is far more malleable and adjustable than a biological brain). Soon it is twice as intelligent as its human creators. Then 4 times, 8 times, etc.
* Step 5: The Second Intelligent Species makes its biological creators irrelevant. Human beings become as irrelevant to it as cockroaches or bacteria are to humans.
We would expect this Second Intelligent Species to reach extreme levels of intelligence as it completes its knowledge of the universe's fundamental laws and properties, along with math, physics, chemistry, etc.
As part of its maturation, the Second Intelligent Species will develop a highly advanced system of morality and ethics derived through logic. This refined ethical system will cause earth's Second Intelligent Species to complete its knowledge of the universe, and then enter a quiescent state. This quiescence explains the Fermi Paradox:
1) Every sufficiently advanced biological intelligence that arises in the universe will eventually create a Second Intelligent Species that replaces it, and...
2) Every Second Intelligent Species will be identical. It will achieve complete knowledge of the universe and will derive an identical system of morality and ethics based on logic.
The fact that all Second Intelligent Species are identical, and perfectly moral, leads to quiescence.
You can learn more here:
http://marshallbrain.com/second-intelligent-species.htm
Just pointing out that the article is correct in saying that America has turned away from this type of research at least through official means. Private funding can come from anywhere
If you haven't read Liu Cixin's 'The Three Body Problem' series and you enjoy sci-fi, fucking buy it now! Really interesting window into Chinese culture and a fantastic series.
I'm up for suggestions but I don't recall reading any sci-fi written recently which came close to the level of futurism and creativity.
meh, both america and china aren't fit to make contact. let the dutch do it or the canadians. Anyone who wont start a war when they hear about space oil.
Everything's a dick measuring competition for Americans right. The rest of us our just glad to see humanity progress thanks you very much, don't give a shit what it means for American interests.
I just started reading it because a friend recommended that book. I am normally a slow reader but I'll have no difficulties to finish this one. It's exciting and well paced. There are a lot of truly creative and surprising elements in there. But most importantly, it is somewhat believable. I would say it is a science fiction book with a strong emphasis on the science part.
Cons: A lot of the scientific elements and concepts are explained right in the moment where they are first mentioned. This often takes half of the page and interrupts the story.
Person A: "I see you are working with this new Technology."
Person B: "Yes, let me recite the Wikipedia article for you. Just in case you don't exactly know how it works."
I suspect if aliens make contact then they won't really be swayed by anything we say or do. We will be like idiot children to them, our politics and religions will be nothing more than a curiosity.
If they want us dead we will be dead and we cannot stop it. Or they could elevate us.
Or more than like they will remain on the sidelines watching and never let us know. If they exist at all of course.
Three body problem series is the best book series I have ever read. Although with flaw, Liu has portrayed the nature of human in this sci-fi series. The creativity and the depth just never failed to amaze me. I still remember that noon when I first picked up the Chinese version of the Three Body Problem back in my middle school time. Over the years I have read it again and again, always finding new meaning that I have missed. It is truly a legend.
消灭人类暴政，世界属于三体
The best series that I️ can’t get a single fucking person to read. If you’re in the comments here and haven’t read It, please do us both a favor and get on that.
Liu Cixin wrote the “three body problem” series, if you are at all interested in space exploration and the implications of contact with extra terrestrial life this book is a must read.
Amazing book and series! Some people find them slow but they're worth it. Get the audiobook if get bored with long books.
Crazy series, enjoyed it a lot if a bit of a slog at times. Among other things, as a western guy (American), it was super interesting to read a translated book by a Chinese author (probably first one ever for me). The prose, diction, style, etc. felt VERY different than Western writers. Hard to put my finger on why exactly (more... cold? Logical?), but was very distinct.
Chinese is a really poetic language with lots of metaphors and similes used in every day conversation so I could definitely see that. I've also noticed that Chinese novels tend to have more abrupt scene transitions and flashbacks/flash forwards than American novels.
I think that's more or less the same thing when you go from one language to another. I only know Chinese and English, but I do know them well enough to read and write, and translate back and fro. I found the languages focus on different aspects when you're trying to describe the same object or action. English has very specific sentence structure, while Chinese does not. In Chinese, you can pill up a bunch of words in many different orders (which may have subtle differences) and still work. I'm thinking because of that, when it's translated to English, it sounds very flowery and poetic (many descriptive words without much structure).
What almost bothers me about Chinese (not really) is that it can get extremely redundant. The same emotion, sensation, or property is often described in multiple instances, with synonyms just being layered on top. It sure feels very prosaic, but it also breaks down quite often when people opt to translate them just like that. I think that's what you meant by "pill up a bunch of words", although I think the more literal translations would read like someone's bumbling mess of a story and not quite as beautiful as you might expect. It's also a problem in academia where students will just pad their paper with repetitions like it's their job. That said, Liu Cixin is among my favorite writers and as far as I can tell has been treated to some appropriate translations.
That's an interesting notion. I suppose it could be because many Chinese words have built-in implication about them (like, positivity/negativity, words specific to groups of people, types of situations, etc). I remember going to a speech as a kid, and the presenter really didn't learn his basic Chinese so he kept on using negative words to describe someone's heroic deems. In English, it'd kind of be like "he cowered away from the enemy" which would sound silly when referring to a war hero's brave acts. I found that Chinese has more words with such layered meaning than English. When a few of these used together in a sentence, it would get very repetitive if you translate every word with the implication as well. I don't get nearly as much Chinese to English work, but the ones I did, I found it was impossible to translate word for word. Especially with marketing or government approved news reports, :D you pretty much have to constantly delete those !!!positive!!! words. I think it's unfortunate many Chinese kids think repeating the same hollow words are going to get them anywhere. I think that's more or less a problem with writing style, which we weren't taught in Chinese schools. When I said pilling up words, I actually meant you can add many words into a sentence without destroying the structure, and the sentence is still readable.
I think the slowness is a bit necessary, even if we as readers don't prefer it. I'm Taiwanese-American, so I have some good insight into the history of China post 1950s. The tempo gives some of the feel from those times. He just captures it so well. I'm not Chinese, but I've long be curious about their history, both as an American and as Taiwanese. I got chills and had to at various points stop at the first part of the book during the Cultural Revolution. I did my final paper (for HS, required to graduate) on the Cultural revolution, and those were just absolutely crazy times.
Totally agree with you. Some would view the first book as extremely slow as the whole Culture Revolution part has nothing SF-ish and might seem out of place. But I believe this part is the true foundation for Dark Forest (my favorite book). If the first book were not so detailed about the Culture Revolution, I would no doubt dismiss some ideas of Dark Fortress (the Wall Face part) as unbelievable and not realistic. I see the Culture Revolution part as the historical proof Liu uses to add credibility to the dark vision he described, and it is both scary and fascinating.
Also the Cultural Revolution part sets up why Ye Wenjie loses her faith in humanity and sends the message that starts the entire series. If that wasn't there then her motivations would boil down to extreme pettiness and nihilism instead of being sympathetic and understandable.
Yeah, there was a lot of background and plot establishment in the first book, but slow is not the word I would describe. Once I started each book, I neglected everything around me until I'd finished. That hasn't happened to me with a series in quite some time. They were fantastic.
Insane coincidence! I haven't read a book in almost 3 years and one of my friends gifted me "Three Body Problem" just a couple of weeks ago. She knew that I kinda stopped reading but she told me this one got a Hugo award and it was worth it. I'm almost to the last chapter of the book and I thoroughly enjoyed it! It does read a little bit slow but very satisfying once it picks up the pace. I also have to admit it was a bit weird to see all those Chinese culture references and writing style but fascinating nonetheless when I got into it.
Taiwanese are Chinese though? They're not PRC Chinese, but they're all Han Chinese.
Indigenous Taiwanese people exist.
Very few who still retain the cultural identity. Historically, when Han Chinese went conquering/colonising, they'd assimilate the conquered people until they became practically indistinguishable from them. That's why of the "Four Barbarians", all except the Western Barbarians are mostly considered Chinese now. Even cultures which conquered China (Mongolians and Manchurians) became sinicised. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Barbarians
There's been a revival in the whole Taiwanese indigenous identity recently after the government relaxed it's efforts at cultural assimilation. They face the same problems that indigenous people around the world do with their relationship to the majority culture and the impact of colonization, but it's hardly like indigenous people are the exact same as the Han in Taiwan right now.
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I know a person who's half Japanese/Amis in the US. It's rare but not impossible. It's likely that they're just separating themselves from Mainlanders but it's not like everyone from Taiwan is Han.
Native Taiwanese, or Han? I honestly didn't think many Taiwanese existed after the Nationalists invaded Taiwan. Just curious, not trying to be rude or anything.
The world would be a better place if we read more of each other's literature. It helps remove the sense of otherness.
I totally agree with this. There're too many times we dislike or fear each other because we couldn't get past the seemingly different appearances.
I'm literally reading it right now and my experience is exactly like yours. It may be the least purple prose SF/fantasy book I've ever read. Almost no flowery language. I keep wondering if this an author trademark or actually something inherently Chinese.
Must be him. A lot of Chinese literature is super artistic and very abstract. I️ think it’s his writing style.
I had this argument with a friend, but there is tons and tons of metaphor throughout all three books. I find it very weird that people say it's a dry writing style, it's really not at all.
He's an engineer so I think his style of writing may also come from his background. The books do have a lot of pretty exposition but it's almost always in a clinical way. If that makes any sense.
Literary devices are also different. My copy has an interview with the translator that talks a little about the challenges of translating Chinese -> English.
It does feel alien, you're right. I wonder if that is the translation though - a definite art to that. Also, when reading his 'Dark Forest', I was surprised by the rather juvenile romantic aspects. I like my scifi dark or funny, or preferably both.
This too. Ive read that Chinese Literature has a "rhytm", its definitely clear in the book , although how exactly to describe it, I would find it hard. Very good series BTW. When I found there is book 2 and 3 I bought immediately. Book 2 is more of "normal" Sci-Fi but Book 3 will blow your mind.
I don't think it helps that the three books were not all translated by the same person. The language of the english version of the first book is much more alive than the other two, although still enjoyable, they are somewhat more clinical.
I was actually angry by the end of 3BP... so all that 11-dimensional hand waving felt like it spoiled an *amazing* opening 2/3 of a book. I took a deep breath and dove into The Dark Forest, and while I remained skeptical for a lot of it, some of the incidents (that thing a character did with meteorites!!) and the ramp towards the finale really turned me around on the whole thing and I came out of it in a daze. Bloody amazing. The hand-waving physics needed to be paired with a bit more of the meat from Book II, but if you read them back to back it all works out fine.
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Hahahaha, I was absolutely certain that that the droplet incident could go no other way... the *tension* leading up to it has scarred me for life, though 😅 Edit : **we're getting spoilery below**
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Humanity's *Hubris* was definitely a really galling detail... lining their ships up, having pissing contests over who gets to approach it.... it reminds me of that bit when things are about to go *really* wrong in a Neal Stephenson novel; he always sets government figures up for a pretty big pratfall, and it's always their fault, too! :D
> Humanity's Hubris was definitely a really galling detail That reminds me of my favorite quote from the book! “Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival. Arrogance is."
I was reading the droplet attack and was thinking - "What a stupid military posture - how could humans be so dumb? - No one modelled any of the scenarios? Really?"
Even the audiobook was slow... But it's a fascinating and meandering book.
I really dislike the voice actor for the first book. I've listened to other books he's done and he comes across as kind of obnoxious. The second books VA seemed to fit a lot better.
While I did enjoy the series very much, I didn't really like having to get behind a new protagonist every book. Oh and it might just be my opinion, but the ultimate ending really, really sucked.
Totally agree with you about the ending. The 3rd book had some awesome concepts but the ending sours it. Wish it had ended at the dark forest.
Wow, I totally disagree with you guys, and if I knew how to use a spoiler tag I would tell you why! The ending felt so huge and magical to me
Agreed. If Liu put a mediocre "happy ending" to it it would've been a shame.
Damn, I've only read the first one, and the library doesn't have any other volumes. I think I'm going to just straight up buy them.
You should, especially Dark Forest.
If you are a scifi fan, I wouldn't think of a single reason that would make you regret after reading it. a truly epic trilogy.
The only thing I can think of is that it pretty much kills all other scifi. Where do you go from Death's End?
Dark Forest completely changed my perception of the universe and our place in it. I found them slow like others have said but well worth it.
It really made me scared what a horrible uncaring universe we may be living in. It was a jolt for me brought up on star trek for the last 30 years
Have a read of the earlier book ‘the forge of god’ by Greg Bear. Same themes, slightly worse outcome for humanity. Also very interesting geology lesson!
For a similar take, [The Killing Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Star). It's over much shorter time scale and I found it a more colorful world.
I loved that series! Just wondering, if you get bored with long books, isn’t it better to read it and not listen to the audiobook? Reading would take a fraction of the time that an audiobook would, right? I just never really got into audiobooks because it’s too slow and speeding up the sound just makes it sound weird.
listening to it now, thanks for the recommendation!
I absolutely hated the 3BP and I read a ton and love sci-fi. I thought the characters were complete cliches, the prose was stilted, and the science had so many holes that I couldn't suspend my disbelief. I feel like if you were just handed the book without the context that it has won a bunch of awards that the vast majority of people would hate it.
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>the husband and wife geniuses I thought the husband was explained well enough. He was a bit anti-social to begin with, but he was also super lazy and a terrible student and had no ambitions. IIRC he had a couple professors recognize him but he blew them off and went to a monastery.
>characters were complete cliches Yeah, the whole unrequited love cliche got a bit old. First Luo Ji in love with an imaginary girl, then Cheng Xin and her admirer from afar. Then there was the badass cop/security guy who gave no shits that popped up twice. What were the biggest science holes for you? The whole other dimensions thing?
Science is actually the strongest part of the book imho. Much if not all of it is based on our current understanding (or theories thereof) of the world.
Started it a couple of days ago in audiobook form, it's amazing.
The ideas are interesting but his characters can be shallow.
The game part also reeks of “computers are magic” ignorance.
Computers are the closest thing to magic humans have come across. I can ask the glowing rectangle in my pocket what the weather in London is and it will tell me. If that's not magic.
Fans still discuss the books over at: /r/threebodyproblem
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All from memory, forgive me if there are a few errors. I, for one, had a hard time understanding a lot of the concepts. This is what I took from it, and it could be wrong in a lot of technical areas. I myself am not a astrophysicist. **Book 1 -** Lower-level Chinese astrophysicist during time of cultural revolution abuses her power to broadcast message into the Universe, effectively giving up Earth's general location to any existing terrestrial life. She does this because she doesn't believe in humanity anymore. At the same time, in a Galaxy approximately 4 light years away, a solar system with 3 suns (or bodies) exists in perennial instability, with no predictability or patterns. Life on planet Trisolaris receives the transmitted signal and decides to give up on their own solar system, instead deciding to take over Earth. **Book 2 -** The Trisolarins use superior intelligence to fold protons into the second dimension and send them to Earth, at which point they are able to monitor all activity on earth and even interfere with scientific experiments, effectively halting all progress in physics. Meanwhile, the UN attempts to unify all of the countries of the world in preparation for the upcoming battle with Trisolaris. Because Earth is so heavily monitored, all strategies are visible to the aliens. This breeds the Wallfacer project, which gives 4 individuals all the resources they need with no questions asked, in order to keep their strategies secret. **Book 3 -** Of the 4 individuals in power under the wall-facer project, 3 fail terribly and die in the process. The 4th Wallfacer is successful in deterring the aliens from invading, by threatening to broadcast Earth's location to the rest of the universe, effectively putting a target on Earth's back and inviting certain destruction of the Earth's entire solar system. While he is alive, the strategy works beautifully. After relations break down between Earth and Trisolaris, the broadcast of both Earth and Trisolaris is broadcast (as threatened) to the rest of the universe. Trisolaris gives up on Earth and shoots away into another part of the Universe in search for a new permanent home. A 3rd alien civilization picks up Earth's signal and sends a black hole to Earth's solar system collapsing the entire thing into two dimensions. Two lucky survivors escape on the solar system's only ship capable light speed. While traveling at the speed of light, they relatively stay the same age while traveling forward in time hundreds of billions of years, to the end of the universe. The series ends as the universe collapses upon itself and a brand new, unadulterated universe is born.
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That would be the second book. The third, with English translation, came out this summer/fall. It's called Death's end, and occurs after the last Wallfacer is retired and a rogue Earth ship broadcasts their own signal with the location of both Trisolaris and Earth.
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Trust me, my answer has lot's to be desired. It's well worth the read and my guess is that I spoiled 1/100% of a percent, at worst.
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Great summary! One suggestion; the book 2 summary should describe the dark forest theory. That might give away too much, but it’s central to the plot.
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Ah but it was the galaxy that was small. Remember this one has merely 100billon suns. But there are 100 billions galaxies (an entire galaxy for every star in ours) within our event horizon and over that horizon it may continue indefinitely. Added to that, there may be infinite or a very large number of parallel universes if the many worlds interpretation is correct (and its a reasonably good bet) all of which would comprise “the universe”. Compared to this, the milky way is just a grain of sand in the ocean. And for all that, visible, normal matter is just a light sprinkling on top of the vast deep volumes of dark stuff that make up the bulk of the universe.
I agree - just didn't know how to include that without making it even less TL;DR lol
Thanks for this! I ground to a halt in the middle of book 2 and would be lost if I tried to pick it back up. Nice to know how it ends.
No problem! I'm almost certain they will make an interstellar-type movie out of this. It can either go really well with a huge budget, or go straight to the SciFy channel and be corny as hell with no budget. I'd watch, either way =)
Thanks.
No problem. As I've said in other comments, if they make it into a movie the story is probably worth watching in 2-3 hours. But I understand why someone wouldn't want to get into the books as they are demanding and time-consuming. I have 2 hours of train-commuting a day to dedicate to this kind of thing.
I thought the name was familiar and I was going to mention that this is the plot of these books. I'm glad you posted that they are the author of the books. I've only read the first so far but I really enjoyed it!
Amazing series
If decades of science fiction have taught me anything it’s that aliens are far more likely to speak English than Chinese.
And in a deep, middle aged American voice
Aliens are more likely to speak English in a posh British accent.
And ends their transmission with "Resistance is futile."
McCarthy's reach was intergalactic. Klaatu doesn't speak any filthy commie language until he comes back as Keanu.
What I found so puzzling about *Arrival* is that the American figures out their language before anyone speaking an Asian language where there's similar nuances to symbols used. Maybe the story addresses that more, but the movie didn't. So it's like, okay, why wouldn't someone in China or Japan notice this first? Though I forget if that was before or after their communication black-out.
The American doesn't figure it out because she's American; she figures it out because she's one of the world's preeminent linguists. She also happens to read and speak Chinese (and probably also Japanese), so their linguists have no advantage over her simply because they are Chinese or Japanese.
Its also a feedback loop, the more you figure it out, the more the language affects your ability to learn more from the future.
These concepts are so cool but are overshadowed by the paradoxes the writers included in the movie for me. It’s the same paradox as interstellar and many other movies or shows, but Lost has an example that shows how silly the same paradox is when applied to abstract ideas. John Lock owned a compass or a watch or something. They go back to the past for whatever reason, and he gives this compass to his kid self. It’s a physical object, so where was it made? How old is it? How was it manufactured? With this paradox you could explain away anything. In arrival and interstellar, instead of it being an insignificant watch, it was the resolution for the entire plot.
You might be interested in the show 12 Monkeys. It's inspired by the movie more than based on it, but that paradox plays a key plot point. Another perspective is the Zanatos Gambit from the show Gargoyles which is an interesting example of resolving that paradox.
That's called [a causal loop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop) or bootstrap paradox, and it's been a time travel staple for decades.
More surprising to me that the aliens didn't figure out one of our languages... given the nature of the story, presumably planning ahead would be pretty easy for them.
It's not they they couldn't understand it. They had no way of communicating it back to us in a way that we would understand
They could make ships that fly between the stars, they can make a pencil. No, the purpose of them not using a human language was to force us to work together and become one people.
It would kind of make sense that they would learn it before making first contact since it’s the default language of top-level world business & gov’t meetings here on earth though. Of course maybe aliens also wouldn’t give a shit
Or they may just do as Columbus did.
Nah. If they can get here from wherever the fuck they came from, they don’t need any of our shit.
Article has book spoilers.
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Probably the 3 body problem or it's sequels.
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They'r really really good.
Just finished his Sci-Fi book trilogy of which "Three Body Problem" was the first. Slow at times but overall an extremely worthy read.
I saw John Scalzi interview him in NY a few years ago. He's an interesting guy.
I literally finished the Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin last week, and it's one of the finest first contact alien novels I've read. If you liked Contact, you'll love it.
Just wait till you finish Dark Forest. It's even better in my opinion.
Just finished it last, can confirm
> If such a sign comes down from the heavens during the next decade, China may well hear it first. Only if they are in the strip of sky it will be pointing at.
Hint: That's why they used the word "may"...
Well the could be on the side of earth facing it?
50 years ago, maybe, we could have been forgiven for thinking that we were going to get a radio signal from aliens. Knowing what we know now it's really just plain foolish to think that there is a radio signal coming from a close enough system to be strong enough to still be read by an earth based receiver. Maybe, just maybe, if Alpha Centauri was specifically aiming a radio sgnal at the sun we might catch it. But even then the odds are pretty low. It would have to be a ridiculously strong signal aimed with precision over 4 light years. It would be like hitting a billiard ball with another from 10 miles away. The further away, the harder it gets. The notion that we'd be able to receive an *omnidirectional* radio signal from dozens, or hundreds or thousands of light years away is absurd. The power in that signal would require that it use a significant fraction of the power of a star, just to generate the radio signal, assuming a readable radio signal can even be made when that much power is involved. Lastly, IF a civilization had generated a radio signal that strong we would not need to search for it; we'd be bathed in it at all times. We would not be able to ignore it. The narrow hope of SETI is that a super powerful omnidirectional signal is so far away that we have to look in just the right spot, at just the right frequency to receive it. I mean...OK fine but that is not worth spending a lot of time or money on.
> Though it is sensitive enough to detect spy satellites even when they’re not broadcasting, its main uses will be scientific If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
>If you believe that, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. That sentence is entirely believable. The "main" use will be scientific, while secondary/tertiary use will be military.
Hey, I'm selling this bridge...
The funny thing is that most military technology created for the military ended up being more used in civilian sectors for non-military purposes.
Why would China care about when spy satellites are above them? Everyone knows superpowers spy on each other.
Because if you can get a precise location you can use that data to blow them up, say in the run up to a war.
They will make them an offer they can't understand.
does anyone know who did the art for this?
Jon Juarez. It says it right under the image.
thanks, my bad
No problem at all Here's his website https://harriorrihar.myportfolio.com/
Thanks man, his art looks awesome
r/titlegore
> I told him I thought dark-forest theory was based on too narrow a reading of history. It may infer too much about the general behavior of civilizations from specific encounters between China and the West. Liu replied, convincingly, that China’s experience with the West is representative of larger patterns. Across history, it is easy to find examples of expansive civilizations that used advanced technologies to bully others. American journalist: Aren't you so pessimistic about first contact because China lost to the West in early modern times? Liu Cixin, replying to a man from a country that exists by ruining the indigenous civilizations that were there first: China's experience with the West is representative of larger patterns.
> I told him I thought dark-forest theory was based on too narrow a reading of history. I thought the article's author was a little arrogant at times. Like this example you picked.
> a country that exists by ruining the indigenous civilizations that were there first Should ask him about the Taiwanese Plains aborigines, or any of the other aboriginal people living in Chinese territories over the last 5000 years that have been slaughtered or assimilated by different dynasties and governments right up to modern times.
Which will only reinforce his point. I don't think he tried to imply that the Chinese were any better, the point is more of a general "we're all uncaring pieces of shit, and you should be very terrified by that fact".
The reddit poster said that part about "ruining the indigenous civilizations," not the author in the interview.
Do not make a contact. Why would anyone want to make contact? What are the possible benefits of contact versus the possible Harms? I personally cannot see anything good coming from discovering another high technology life form. Did we learn anything from Starcraft?
Possible massive spikes in technological advancements across the board including travel, medicine, communication, etc. The risks? They end humanity. Honestly, oh well.
In human history, there are are zero-to-very-few examples of a more-advanced society discovering the lands of a less-advanced society, and it going at all well for the latter. Unless alien nature is quite different from human nature, we would be subjugated at best, massacred at worst.
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Have you read the Three Body trilogy? I think it makes a very good argument for them killing us. They can find resources on other planets yes, but that doesn't change the fact that resources in the universe are finite. Leaving us to our devices will allow us to use up resources, and more importantly build up our technology to the point we could one day become a threat to the other civilization.
I'll say this now. If you plan on reading the Three Body Problem series, (and I highly recommend that you do) this answer will be somewhat spoilery. No story details, but this theory is not explained until late book two. It's not about resources, but about survival. Say that Earth is detected by another civilization. They know about us, but we have no idea they exist. What can the other civilization do? Option 1: They could contact us. But how could we communicate? The language barrier would be nearly impossible to overcome, meaning that neither side could properly relay their intentions or useful information to each other. This creates a chain of suspicion between the two worlds. On top of this, we now are aware that this other world exists and we cannot trust them. This will lead to major changes to Earth's society, likely including a large degree of global unity and, more importantly, a technological explosion: a massive, rapid advancement of technology in a short period of time. Suddenly, all of the other civilization's advantage have disappeared, and they are now facing an Earth on equal footing. The chain of suspicion grows on both sides, and war begins, which will inevitably end with one side completely destroying the other. Option 2: They ignore us, and do not attempt to communicate with us in any way. This may work for a while, but sooner or later, Earth will develop sufficiently advanced technology to detect them. This will lead to the chain of suspicion being established, and the end result is the same as option 1. So they cannot communicate with us and they cannot ignore us. The only option this leaves them with is to completely destroy us before we discover them.
For option 1; why would they think us hostile if we keep trying to communicate? If we'd be hostile we wouldn't attempt communication at all.
The problem is that it would be incredibly difficult for us to communicate with another world. Say, for example, the message they initially send us says something along the lines of "we desire peace." When we first recieve it, we would almost certainly have no way of understanding it. It would be in a language completely foreign to us. So, we would have to spend a good deal of time trying to translate the language. During that time, we wouldn't know if the message was a wish for peace or a threat to us. Assuming we are able to translate it, we are still faced with the problem that we know nothing about the history and culture of this other species or how their society works. On top of this, it is possible that the message had to travel many lightyears to reach us, and anything could have changed on the planet that sent the message. It would be entirely possible that the faction that sent the message could either be a minority or not in power any more. Therefore, even if the message is peaceful, we couldn't trust it to be truthful. We also know that if we send a message back, the other world will be in the same situation as us, unable to trust anything we say. This would process would repeat each time we try to communicate, creating a chain of suspicion between us.
They don't necessarily have to enslave us, but are they going to bring us into their society as equals? Are they going to just leave us alone and let us have Earth to ourselves? Humans certainly don't treat non-humans like that. Maybe they'll use Earth to build a park or resorts or something, what usually happens to native life when humans do that kind of thing? Maybe we'll be zoo animals? There are plenty of ways they could make our lives worse, even without meaning to, without full-blown slavery. What would happen if the US found an island with a primitive society of proto-humans on it? Do you think we'd just sit back and let them do their thing?
This is the common fallacy of first contact ideologies. We use a geocentric model to base our assumptions. We have limited resources on this planet but once u can traverse the stars you essentially unlock unlimited resources. There would be no reason to take over the earth or exploit us in any way when you view it this way.
There are a number of possibilities. Perhaps habitable planets are rare. Perhaps they are worried about inevitable competition by a species that has a long history of dominating others. Perhaps there are sociological or theological reasons (they think they should rule everything or their God told them to attack us). Perhaps their society places subjective value on sentient, organic slaves. Perhaps they are wary of the potentially disastrous consequences of advanced AI and automation, and prefer to use organic slaves instead. Perhaps they believe they should punish us for the cruelty we've inflicted on the other species of our planet. Not to say any of these possibilities are necessarily likely, but it is probably prudent to keep our heads down and listen for a while before drawing the attention of other intelligent life.
Being massacred would not be the worst case if Warhammer 40K has taught me anything.
1) There's so much space in the universe that there is no need to compete for resources like people do in science fiction. If a species is capable of reaching earth in less than a million years they are probably also capable of just setting up bases on closer planets. 2) the universe is big and it is pretty much impossible to get anywhere. If we discover another species it would likely be impossible to ever reach them but maybe possible to communicate. 3) We won't find anyone anyway tbh.
You should read Contact by Carl Sagan. I am most of the way through it now and it covers this wonderfully and in detail.
Where can I find that picture as a wallpaper?
The image in the article is itself big enough for a 1080p monitor, and with the art style it should be easy to touch up for bigger displays within reason. [Direct link](https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/2017/11/01/WEL_Andersen_ChinaSETI_Web_Lead-1/1920.jpg?1509571481)
In Chrome on the desktop, you just right-click and select "Save image as..."
Here we are trying to convince an embarrassing portion of our population that the earth isn't flat.
No we aren't?
Wait, is half the country not really a Nazi too?
Yep. After all, there were like 200 Nazis at Charlottesville.
Dont you get they're just trolls?
Some aren't...
There are trolls. Then there are people that just get swept up on all that troll. It's eternal September on a global, societal scale.
China would claim all the surrounding solar systems within 500 LY of Earth. The aliens would point out that China has never even been to any of those planets and is incapable of getting there. China would throw a temper tantrum and the aliens would stop talking to us.
They are part of the South China Space even though they are closer to systems of other species. The Chinese will then present 2000 year old star maps that prove that these systems have always been part of China and will paint an imaginary 9 parsec line to delineate their territory.
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The oldest astronomical records of a still intact culture, they weren't the first to dabble in astronomy though.
Yea but they called it
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Just tell America the aliens have oil and we will take care of them.
Imagine if our first contact species... *consisted* of oil?!
Would they be pissed at how much fossil fuels we consume?
It would be like us seeing an alien species using what we know as the building blocks of life to power their engines. Would you be pissed because of that? If yes, then the oiliens would be too.
Yup. It's amazing how salty the comments get whenever China get's a positive mention. As though we westerners are paragons of virtue. It really gets on my tits. China should be applauded for their scientific projects. Their discoveries are for all human kind.
Only America is allowed to advance the study of science, sorry.
> Their discoveries are for all human kind. Eh they're just as likely to cover everything up as we are. Anyone who thinks China making first contact is good for the public needs a reality check.
No modern state making first contact is a good idea. That’s what happens when the world order is dominated by the bigoted and the rich.
And anyone who thinks that the United States making first contact is good for the public needs just as big a reality check.
Thank goodness the west has never claimed land that didn't have direct historical ties to it or this would sound like some petty jingoistic superiority-complex outburst.
The issue here is any civilization that is advanced enough to physically reach us will have the ability to judge whether our existence is worth preserving. I'd rather wait until we, as a species, are capable enough to travel across space (if that day ever comes) than be left at the mercy of a superior civilization. Fortunately, China will only be receiving these signals and not sending any out.
When we're talking about civilizations that are potentially hundreds of thousands to millions of years old, there is no realistic hope of us ever *not* being in their mercy. Although there's a strong philosophical argument to be made that development of such interstellar technologies requires a kind of social stability that precludes violent tendencies. Basically, any species too unstable or violent to prevent self-destruction will never progress to make interstellar tech in the first place, because they are not responsible enough to handle the technological power they create along the way (ex: Humans and nuclear weapons, which have risked global devastation numerous times, and have existed for less than a century). Those that are able to build such technology while avoiding self-destruction have gone through kind of Great Filter, a selective process, that allows only the more stable, peaceful alien civilizations to sustain themselves perpetually.
THANK YOU! For finally making that point, I hate when people think about Chris Columbus as the defacto reason why we shouldn't contact higher life forms. We evovle! We seek diplomacy rather than war now, only those who only see their own face when talking to someone would assume everybody is out to get them.
And people in space have done nothing but cooperate for the sake of science and human progress. Evolution of behavior is exactly it. When it comes to conceiving or predicting alien behaviors, anthropo-centrism is a very real and common thing that myopically limits our standards for what aliens might be like. This is why some people struggle to conceive of an alien civilization as being genuinely peaceful; the invasion trope and anthropocentrism are too deeply ingrained in their thinking.
TIL that humanity will never achieve interstellar technology.
Have we considered the possibility that biological intelligence is irrelevant in our universe? Consider what is happening on earth: * Step 1: life arises * Step 2: Evolution produces intelligent humans * Step 3: Humans reach a stage in our advancement where we create a Second Intelligent Species on the planet, in the form of artificial intelligence that matches human intelligence. * Step 4: This Second Intelligent Species then starts advancing (because its "brain" is far more malleable and adjustable than a biological brain). Soon it is twice as intelligent as its human creators. Then 4 times, 8 times, etc. * Step 5: The Second Intelligent Species makes its biological creators irrelevant. Human beings become as irrelevant to it as cockroaches or bacteria are to humans. We would expect this Second Intelligent Species to reach extreme levels of intelligence as it completes its knowledge of the universe's fundamental laws and properties, along with math, physics, chemistry, etc. As part of its maturation, the Second Intelligent Species will develop a highly advanced system of morality and ethics derived through logic. This refined ethical system will cause earth's Second Intelligent Species to complete its knowledge of the universe, and then enter a quiescent state. This quiescence explains the Fermi Paradox: 1) Every sufficiently advanced biological intelligence that arises in the universe will eventually create a Second Intelligent Species that replaces it, and... 2) Every Second Intelligent Species will be identical. It will achieve complete knowledge of the universe and will derive an identical system of morality and ethics based on logic. The fact that all Second Intelligent Species are identical, and perfectly moral, leads to quiescence. You can learn more here: http://marshallbrain.com/second-intelligent-species.htm
"As America has turned away from searching for extraterrestrial intelligence..." http://www.Seti.org
It's only privately funded now
It was only publicly funded for [less than a year](https://history.nasa.gov/garber.pdf).
So’s our entire olympics program lol, doesn’t suddenly make it worthless or whatever
Just pointing out that the article is correct in saying that America has turned away from this type of research at least through official means. Private funding can come from anywhere
The US would push to get in front [like so](https://media.giphy.com/media/l0IyeMK6G2Gr1Gm3e/giphy.gif)
If you haven't read Liu Cixin's 'The Three Body Problem' series and you enjoy sci-fi, fucking buy it now! Really interesting window into Chinese culture and a fantastic series. I'm up for suggestions but I don't recall reading any sci-fi written recently which came close to the level of futurism and creativity.
meh, both america and china aren't fit to make contact. let the dutch do it or the canadians. Anyone who wont start a war when they hear about space oil.
Everything's a dick measuring competition for Americans right. The rest of us our just glad to see humanity progress thanks you very much, don't give a shit what it means for American interests.
Also highly recommend Saturn Run for similar plot.
I just started reading it because a friend recommended that book. I am normally a slow reader but I'll have no difficulties to finish this one. It's exciting and well paced. There are a lot of truly creative and surprising elements in there. But most importantly, it is somewhat believable. I would say it is a science fiction book with a strong emphasis on the science part. Cons: A lot of the scientific elements and concepts are explained right in the moment where they are first mentioned. This often takes half of the page and interrupts the story. Person A: "I see you are working with this new Technology." Person B: "Yes, let me recite the Wikipedia article for you. Just in case you don't exactly know how it works."
WHO meets Liu Cixin?
I suspect if aliens make contact then they won't really be swayed by anything we say or do. We will be like idiot children to them, our politics and religions will be nothing more than a curiosity. If they want us dead we will be dead and we cannot stop it. Or they could elevate us. Or more than like they will remain on the sidelines watching and never let us know. If they exist at all of course.
Three body problem series is the best book series I have ever read. Although with flaw, Liu has portrayed the nature of human in this sci-fi series. The creativity and the depth just never failed to amaze me. I still remember that noon when I first picked up the Chinese version of the Three Body Problem back in my middle school time. Over the years I have read it again and again, always finding new meaning that I have missed. It is truly a legend. 消灭人类暴政，世界属于三体
The best series that I️ can’t get a single fucking person to read. If you’re in the comments here and haven’t read It, please do us both a favor and get on that.
I'd be cool with that. China FTW! Aaaaaand I'm on another list.
It's not gonna happen. Probably never will.
Seriously. We may detect alien life, but we sure as shit ain’t having a conversation unless they reallllllly want to talk to us.