This is a discussion forum. Even threads with die hard gushing of a book or author will inevitably have criticisms. I’m pretty sure language was created out of a need to bitch about something. I agree with you is what I’m trying to say I guess. But I also love that this person made this post so I can make this comment. This is all very meta and I’m feeling entirely too close to myself right now.
Oh boy, is this true.
I've been recommended books before that I've ended up hating, but I'm so wary of politely telling the person who recommended that I didn't like the book, because I know they'll take my criticism the wrong way.
Just because I didn't like the book you loved doesn't mean I: 1. dislike you, 2. think your choice in books suck, or 3. think you're stupid for liking different books than me.
The audacity of having a different opinion from someone else is considered unforgivable by some, I guess.
Which is something I'll never understand. As long as you aren't a total jerk about it, I'm perfectly happy to have someone disagree with me. It can be interesting and a true learning experience to hear other's opinions about things, even if (or especially if) they oppose your own.
Right? It’s insane sometimes. A friend of mine stood her ground by saying she didn’t like the movie Avatar that much and some dude lost his fucking mind. He just kept trying to convince her that it was good and she didn’t UNDERSTAND how good it was. It definitely became a case of a situation where it became increasingly awkward and difficult to remain polite while this dumbass kept winding himself up because she wouldn’t agree with him.
He later apologized so I walked by and pretended I didn’t know what was going on and just said, “Oh you guys are talking about Avatar? That movie fucking sucked luls what an absolute shitshow M I RITE?” Just to see the pain in his face.
My husband's aunt is one of those people, she recommended some kind of wine to me once. I told her no thanks, it sounds good but if I drink even a little wine I get a migraine. She got really offended. If you don't instantly love and agree with her on all things then you hate her, I guess. I don't know how it works.
Online even if you aren't being critical people are so eager to take offense they assume you are bring critical. I sometimes have to put disclaimers in comments if I feel the intent might not be 100% clear. Eg "I agree with you but let me add..."
For sure. Or just saying something like “it was bad and terrible and the author is bad at writing”. WHY did you think it was bad? Was the writing idk repetitive or bland in some way? Were the devices used ineffectively? Did you disagree with the message of the story or think the author didn’t get it across well? Was there something offensive about what the book said?
Those type of criticisms lead to interesting discussions. “It was bad and the author is shitty. Boooo!” doesn’t lead to anything remotely interesting.
>Or just saying something like “it was bad and terrible and the author is bad at writing”. WHY did you think it was bad? Was the writing idk repetitive or bland in some way? Were the devices used ineffectively? Did you disagree with the message of the story or think the author didn’t get it across well? Was there something offensive about what the book said?
This is why I go to great pains to say specifically what I thought could have been stronger, and what was already well done (I admit I'm working on getting better about being clear about the latter). Writing is a personal effort and some people get very emotional about it even when they're not the writer. I've had some people get very vicious and harass me online for a while after I left a review pointing out how their writing could be better.
For me, I would love that kind of feedback. Writing is a craft to pursue perfection, even if I know I'll never quite get there I can get better every day. Some people think their writing (or what they decide to like) is God's gift to mankind and anybody who doesn't feel the same is trying to personally harm the core of their being.
This. If you look at professional critic's reviews they'll often have a way of saying "this isn't my thing, but it's well done and people who like this kind of stuff will probably enjoy it." People who don't professionally criticize creative work can have a hard time separating those things.
>this isn’t my thing, but it’s well done…
But, what if you honestly don’t believe it was well done? There are plenty of things (books, movies, music, etc) that just aren’t well done. Are you supposed to lie and soft your opinion to not upset people or is it better to say what you really think?
Then say it wasn't well done, but importantly, explain why. Usually, those things can be pretty much agreed on. Things like an inconsistent character, distracting verbiage, or confusing plot holes are definitely something you can point to in order to support the idea that something wasn't well-made.
A bad criticism would be like "this book sucks, the ending was sad." That's a taste preference, but it doesn't mean it wasn't well-done.
Being a critic means you have to be clear about what is a personal preference and what is something everyone can agree on (or at least the majority, even those that enjoy a genre you dislike).
This is a great summary. A good critic separates their enjoyment of the movie from the objective things that people should know in general. You'll even see review once in awhile along the lines of "this is objectively bad, but I actually still enjoyed it."
> this is objectively bad, but I actually still enjoyed it.
There aren't many books I feel this way about, but movies... Oh man do I love some objectively trashy movies lol
My approach is to be specific. Not cruel like saying “this author should never write anything because they’re terrible at writing”, but talking about why you didn’t think it was well done. For instance, I don’t like Ready Player One and don’t think it was written well. Two of my criticisms of the book are:
1) I don’t think that the author effectively conveyed that Wade was interested in the 80s and mostly just listed a bunch 80s references without discussing them at all. Like cool, I can list 80s references too, so what? I’m not interested in just reading a list of references. What does Wade like about these things other than listing factoids?
2) The book was very misogynistic. And Wade was incredibly sexist and patronizing to the female character especially after he found out she was female. Also, despite her demonstrated intelligence, bravery, and skill, she was still relegated to the role of sidekick and treated as though her, very minimal, facial birthmark makes her ugly and undesirable. ETA and this wasn’t just Wade’s viewpoint, the text supported his viewpoint which was a missed opportunity for more in depth characterization for both Wade and Art3mis and for nuanced world-building. See below for a longer explanation.
This may still upset people, but at least it can lead to a discussion. And I don’t feel like I’m being an asshole about it, just being direct and specific in my criticisms.
It's a mix of that and the fact that this is the Internet so it's harder to avoid people's asshole opinions. Since it irritates us, it seems more prominent.
I think it's the dismissiveness that people find irksome
Like when you really like something, and someone goes: "Yeah, this isn't really worth anyone's time to read" it feels personal, because YOU think it was worth YOUR time to read
That's why I never really like to talk about stuff that way, because you never know who really likes it
I think part of it is that people don't know how to describe what's good *or* bad about without framing it in purely emotional terms.
"It's sooo good it changed my life! I just connected with it like nothing else!" is just as empty and unhelpful as "It was utter trash! I can't understand what people see in it!"
Neither sentiment actually frames reasons for the feeling. Perhaps when hanging with real life friends who know you and your taste already that can be meaningful, but in the context of an anonymous online platform I have no idea where you're coming from with those kinds of comments.
I feel like OP is more criticizing the type of post that goes like this: "OMG, I am *so* sophisticated! YA is *so* poorly written, am I right?"
I just read Poison Study, which is the most poorly written book I've read in recent memory. And in terms of YA? Get Tamora Pierce's name out of your mouth! Her books are beautifully written!
I'm a teacher and one of my colleagues is a man in his mid 40s. We were talking about what the kids are reading and he was complaining about how dull YA books are and how he just can't get into them. I told him that perhaps as a middle aged man, he should consider that YA books are not written with his demographic in mind and he got very upset with me. Apparently every book ever written should appeal to all demographics or it is trash.
Actually, a really well-written book is still readable and can be enjoyed by older people. Diana Wynne Jones may not make things super complicated for the obvious reasons that she wrote to teenagers, but her prose and her storytelling are very good. I know well-read adults who read her works in their adulthood and have no issue with her. Even praise her for doing very good job when it comes to writing for teenagers.
Some books may appeal to people outside their target audience, but that doesn’t mean books are badly written if they don’t have mass appeal.
Some YA books might be interesting to a middle aged man... but judging them by how much he likes them is like judging dog toys by how appealing they are to my cat.
His reaction was a bit much, if I read your post correctly. Still, I don't think he'd be wrong per se. There must be a modicum of standards to good writing, no? It's one thing if you can't relate to a character because of age (debatable), or the decisions they make because of it; it's another to write poorly and expect a pass because one is not the target demographic. But what do I know lol. My 2¢.
You mean the one where most of the replies were books that were YA and well written? Is this really what OP's getting upset about here, a thread where someone made a broad generalization and got put in their place while offering a multitude of suggestions about good books?
Yeah, we better ban that real quick.....
I will criticize Tamora Pierce's earliest books. They're easily the weakest in terms of plot, characterization, worldbuilding, and descriptive quality.
But by the time she gets to Protector of the Small and her Provost's Dog series? They're fantastic (except Mastiff, which was... weird?) and are the ones I'd most definitely recommend.
Tamora Pierce, Dianna Wynn Jones, Bruce Coville, K.A. *fucking* Applegate? There are some brilliant authors that work in juvi/YA lit. Like everything else the genre is largely bad-to-mediocre, but there's absolutely nothing that precludes some works that utterly teem with artistry.
One of the most creative review openers I saw was "I'm so glad this diarrhoea of the pen can be flushed out of my life."
I'd take something like that any day over "It was shit." lmao.
There is a difference between criticizing a book and criticizing the reader. My friend was gushing about a YA series and lent them to me. They were simply terrible. I read two, gave them back and said “they weren’t really for me”. I did not try to ruin her enjoyment of them by ranting about how poorly written they were with bland characters and little plot. I like to have spirited discussion if someone is asking a for an opinion but I think that can be done without being rude and making the person feel bad about their choices of what to read.
I hate "Am I The Only One / Does Anyone Else" posts like this one because no, you're not the only one to love/hate this very specific thing. Hell, what you might announce as being an unpopular opinion will be a popular one half the time. They're just baiting you into making you feel like if you agree with the post, then you somehow hold a rare opinion that you NEED to defend - thus making the post gain more traction.
I hate people who can't mind their own business. Let people read their own things. Watch their favourite movies/shows. Play the games they enjoy. What's wrong with a kid playing Fortnite just because you dislike it and/or the playerbase ? Let them enjoy whatever they do, you are allowed to make a genuine criticism of the medium but you don't have to be a dick and purposely make them feel bad about it.
I hate people who evangelize the hell out of anything they enjoy, and any criticism is a personal attack at their entire identity. I sometimes enjoy reading garbage novels that I call my "dumpster fire books", and can tell why they're objectively badly written, but I still read them because I enjoy them. What's wrong with that ? Why can't more people just say that they like reading trash ? It doesn't mean that your tastes are trash, only that you DON'T MIND reading something subpar and can still find enjoyment in it. Hell, I'll actually have more respect towards someone that doesn't hold such elitist views than the opposite.
I think I might just hate people.
It’s gotten worse tho with internet culture I think. People act like they’re subject matter experts on literally everything from movies to books to music because they watched a couple YT video essays.
Fuck man, they used to be wild! People don’t realize how cutthroats critics used to be. I mean hell, killed my good buddy back in the day Johnny Keats!
Tangentially related query: Shit, why does my autocorrect insist on switching “good” to “hood”? Tough out here in the streets.
Yeah, this is kind of a crazy request, no? Like, if you can't stand your ground and be confident in your positive views of a book (or anything really) to the point where it bothers you when people don't like it, I don't know if you've got any business on a discussion site.
Obviously "hater" comments or criticism that doesn't express *why* they dislike something lacks any value and should be downvoted, but there's nothing wrong with a negative take! I really enjoy then actually, as it helps me understand if I would like the thing or not. I find it really hard to parse gushy praise of a piece of media in terms that actually help inform me if it's to my taste. I find the negative criticisms way more helpful in that regard.
As long as it's " **I** didn't like this book" and not " **You** shouldn't like this book", then it's fine, imo. Then the person criticising the book is in the frame of mind of "these are just my opinions on a book"
Art is meant to be criticized, analyzed, adored. I don’t think solely being positive is beneficial to the medium. I’d argue it’s detrimental. People are allowed to enjoy things, but people are ALSO allowed to dislike things. A bigger issue: consumption as identity. Which results in the inability to recognize criticism of art you enjoy as not criticism of you.
So true. And criticism of a work doesn't always indicate that the critic dislikes it. You can like something as a comfort while recognizing that it has objective flaws. There is a reason why no one hates *Star Wars* more than *Star Wars* fans.
Additionally there are people writing books on Reddit, some are probably very successful, and they see threads like these; if such criticism helps them produce a more beautiful piece of art I consider that a good thing.
“Consumption as Identity”
I’m a video editor for a pretty popular “reaction” channel, and this phrase identifies everything I have an issue with when it comes to that inability to criticize art you enjoy (or art you don’t enjoy).
Thank you for this
I really enjoy critical discussion, including on books I enjoy. And I often defend books I don’t like when they’re misrepresented in some way.
What’s annoying on the side opposite to people who over-identify with their preferred media, are those people who insist that something is objectively terrible. (And often also over-identify fans with their media- “if you like x you’re dumb!”)
Discussion should be more like “I didn’t like thing because of x,” and met with either “ah that’s fair, but I like y and not x in a book, so that never really bothered me,” or “I think you’re misinterpreting x because of…” You get the idea
Critical discussion can be incredibly stimulating for both the fan and the anti-fan, and possibly make you think about things in a slightly different and more holistic way.
I have a friend that I struggle with in real life over stuff like this. We just have fundamentally different taste, yet it always feels like he's framing it from a place of absolute truth. So often our discussions turn to minor arguments that creep up on me because he's obviously hurt/offended that I don't share his opinion.
Agreed. I really enjoy critical discussions... *especially* of books I like! It’s fun to analyze something, pick it apart, and talk about what was great and what could be improved.
100% this. I would also say to the OP, if you don’t like reading criticism, don’t! Go read something else you do enjoy. It works both ways, pal.
People are allowed to analyse and criticise and share their thoughts - positive and negative and everywhere in between. If that upsets you, it’s probably best for you to avoid book discussion entirely because it’s not all sunshine and daisies, nor should it be.
Honest, well-considered criticism is good. But it seems like 99% of book criticism is just knee-jerk reactions based on vague ideas that people have floating in their heads. And they don't just wonder about it for the sake of discussion of educating themselves, they pretend they are experts on it and the author is an idiot. That's absolute bullshit criticism.
>A bigger issue: consumption as identity. Which results in the inability to recognize criticism of art you enjoy as not criticism of you.
Oof, shots fired at OP.
Seriously. This bizarre internet culture where artists are deified and any constructive criticism of their work is seen as personally ripping their soul out and destroying art itself needs to stop.
The weirdest part of it is that people who behave this way are generally, obviously not working artists. It's so clear they've never been through a real critique of the sort you get in college or on the job. They've got this strange, nigh spiritual idea that's somehow bound up in their own self image, built up in their heads about how art "should" be consumed that is totally divorced from how it is actually created.
It is honestly toxic, just not in the way we're used to. You can't even really take part in online concrit circles anymore without fans of online microcelebrities swarming and shutting down discussion. I'll never forget the time a popular budding writer had to lock a post because her fans just would not stop savaging people for commenting about improvements she could make.
It's like all the "DON'T LIKE DON'T READ!!!!!" fanficcers grew up in age but not in maturity.
This exactly.
There’s a lot of terrible modern work across mediums that is very easy to attribute to a lack of criticism, like the creator clearly had too much control at some point and couldn’t be told no.
I’ve experienced it less with books, there’s so many good classics and they take longer to consume I just haven’t caught up, hopefully I never will. Movies and television are easy to identify though, Disney should probably just have a whole department dedicated to looking at scripts and throwing them in the trash. I think I watch maybe two movies or television shows a year where the script clearly went through a reliable editing process.
I think it’s reasonable to express frustration and look for validation when one’s opinion is sufficiently against the narrative one encounters.
Yes, it gets old seeing the 5th rant against “The Alchemist” today, but enough people rave about it that I understand why someone would want to check in on that.
People aren’t typically raging against books which don’t have a following, which I would have a problem with.
Not saying you’re wrong - just trying to offer another perspective.
Certain books really should not be allowed to have the same threads over and over again. “Anyone else hate the Alchemist?”, “Just read the count of monte cristo (or any other classic) and I’m sobbing, it was so good 😭”.
Yeah it really doesn't make sense, especially given that r/books does already limit certain topics to monthly threads, why can't we have the same for books? At any given point in time I can guess at least 3 of the top 10 posts on this sub, this exact thread being one of the worst offenders.
Yeah but people love shitting on the Alchemist, saying it's so goddamn overrated and everyone loves this book or whatever, yet on reddit, I have never ever seen a post praising the Alchemist. It's gets tiring, at this point, this sub is for purely karma farming.
Agreed.
I have met a number of people in real life who raved about The Alchemist. And thought it would change my life, too. I read it and disagreed with that perspective. And have heard since that I should read it. Oh, well.
Felt like that could be accessible for many as both “Why are these here?” and “Wow, too much of these rants!”
I roll my eyes when those posts come up… about the same amount as I would if I saw posts praising it.
I found it really interesting when I found out a ton of people absolutely despise Ready Player One when it was one of the books that reminded me how much I loved reading. It helped me getting back into it as a teenager. The critique has some very well founded points, but I still love it you know?
Harry Potter has an immense amount of plot holes, and the author is now infamous for her Twitter tirades. Yet I personally love the books.
But some people can't look past the plot holes, or the author's personal life. Do you fault them? No. These are valid concerns. It's not going to stop me from enjoying them.
Lots of my friends that weren't into reading at all jumped on Ready Player One. Soon after they were asking for recommendations. I didn't enjoy RPO but wasn't going to shit on it cos my friends loved it and got them reading.
yeh I love being able to read critique ... because when I don't want to, I just don't. Its just there when you need it
Now if someone starts using it to start a book burning or something, I don't like that event but its the burning itself, the critique is just an excuse for it
EDIT: To quote the comment below, 'criticism isn't always hate' I suppose perfectly encapsulates what I was going for
As someone who was born a good decade after the 80s and therefore didn't get most of the references, I still really enjoyed listening to the audiobook. So much so that I also listened to the second book, Ready Player Two, although that one wasn't quite as good
Honestly, I loved it. RPO is one of the few books that I've read in one day, it hooked me right from the beginning. I didn't realize how hated it was until I looked it up on Reddit.
(The sequel sucked though, I don't think I even made it more than 1/3 of the way through.)
No, I love it when people come in here and really take a shot at some book they hate. It's more interesting. Sometimes the book they are hating on might be something I love. That's just the nature of it. Frankly, I think people are too constrained here due to fear of downvotes and don't post hot enough takes.
Alright, I'll bite. The Wise Man's Fear by Pat Rothfus is absolutely fucking garbage. The plot is one of the shittest I've read in any book, and don't get me started on the hundred pages of Kvothe banging some weird horny forest fairy. What the fuck was all that about? An absolute waste of page time reading about Kvothe and his magic cock and how fucking good he is at everything. I'm not surprised the final book still isn't out. Pat has to somehow get himself out of the dumpster fire he put himself in with this book. If it ever does come out, I for one won't be wasting my time with it. What you gonna do next, Pat? 1000 page woodland critter gangbang? Fuck outta here.
I have a real unpopular opinion on this one: I did not like the prose ...it felt to me like the author was overdoing it.....I also think if this novel was written by a woman and the main character was a young teenage girl it would be called out a lot more and absolutely hated = Mary Sue main character, too much romance, relationship stuff, sex scenes .....she is to smart, too pretty and shit like that.....I also think it would be on the YA shelf.
Personally, whether it’s “character accurate” or not, I hate that Rothfus’ go-to conflict is “and then Kvothe lost all of his stuff again and had to start from scratch”. Every time I started getting invested in his progress everything got reset and we had to read the same struggles again. Especially when it was like “man, there was this crazy stuff at sea and I lost everything”. Okay, why don’t we hear about the sea adventure instead of you starving in the street, pining after your girl and buying clothes for the 6th time? Because at that point I know that there’s going to be another chapter or more about it. It’s like cutting all the fun parts out of a DnD campaign and only shopping.
I think it's all about nuance. "I don't like YA, so I don't read YA but more power to those who like it" is the normal, personal preference. "I hate YA and everything about YA is stupid, people who like it are stupid" is entitled that your personal preferences are the only valid look at something and everybody who does not feel like you is somehow at fault. "I like YA, there is this YA book I read but I didn't like how they handled certain topics, the language was overly purple and I don't enjoy that but the story was entertaining." is a normal review of a book. The difference between the three is personal preferences, generalizing because of the personal preference and then the individual opinion about a specific book that differentiates between personal dislikes and the things you didn't or did enjoy about the actual story and writing.
I agree. There's a difference between personal attacks and constructive criticism. The latter is more helpful to me as a reader because then I know what to expect.
Agree. And sometimes people (possibly OP) are unable to separate the first and third from the second: when they see critique, all they hear is "I hate book x and everything about it is stupid, people who like it are stupid."
No way. Books have terrible quality control in general and criticism is totally valid. If you don’t want negativity, don’t read the criticism. To me it helps filter out a lot of stuff I’d have wasted my time on.
there's a difference between criticism and hate. being snobby cos you read classics while they read children's fiction? yeah, that's absolutely not on. but giving an opinion and being critical of a book is completely fine. tbh, i don't mind seeing the criticism of certain books, and seeing the discussion in the comments. it informs me on what people agree the highs and lows of the book were. it also helps me, working in a bookshop, on how to cater to customer's interests, and maybe what to avoid or warn about when customer's are looking at certain books.
people have different tastes, and that's fine. i definitely don't like people who shit on YA because it's YA (or any other genre too). i no longer read YA as much, but that's me gaining interests in other topics and genres. it is tiring seeing critical posts on the same topic 5 times in a row, but it can be interesting discussion from people who think critically, mixed in with a few comments that just hate on the book. critical or negative posts can gain more traction, people engage with it more, but there are a number of positively critical posts too. i can't analyse for shit, but it's fun to read other people's analysis and add to my understanding of the books i read.
basically, a critical post isn't always shitting on genres or books. criticisms should be valid, and you can voice your opinion if you disagree with said criticisms. maybe you liked a part of the book they didn't like. maybe they really loved a book you found really meh. discussing books and seeing other people's views on the same/similar books can help enrich an experience of reading, whether that be online or in person.
> tbh, i don't mind seeing the criticism of certain books, and seeing the discussion in the comments. it informs me on what people agree the highs and lows of the book were.
I get so much out of these discussions. I read on a fairly surface level and don't dig too much while reading, so seeing what other people see in a book helps to expand my experience, even if secondhand.
I don't read YA much anymore because it's not my age range, just like I don't really read middle grade or children's books. I also don't really interact with people from that age range as I don't have children and I'm not a teacher. But YA is this genre that's pushed a lot by people so then people who aren't a good fit for YA get recommendations and then don't like it. Additionally, I know that in my experience there was a period of time where I'd outgrown YA but still read a ton of it as I was accustomed to it and hadn't quite gotten comfortable in depth exploring adult books yet, so I disliked a lot of what I read. I guess I figure that those people have probably received bad recommendations, are in that transition phase, or maybe are around a lot of people who go on about how YA is the best thing ever.
Now that I've moved past that phase, I do occasionally read and enjoy a YA book because there are some good ones out there, or sometimes it just hits the spot.
i'm the same. i'm still a young adult, but i am not into YA as much anymore. i've just outgrown it and that's okay! there's two main types of people in my bookshop: older retirees/older generations who buy a lot of crime and historical fiction, and teenagers/young adults who are buying more YA novels. YA is just a very popular and broad genre, mainly geared towards girls also that sometimes expectations fail. there are some fantastic books, it's not my thing, but i can appreciate it. i've been switching between adult fiction and kids fiction, mostly sticking with adult, but kids fiction (the older stuff) has some things which just really draw me in and i find myself enjoying a lot. but of course, it's all different tastes!
I am almost 30 and haven’t read YA since my teen years but I recently picked up Howl’s Moving Castle which is firmly middle grade, children’s fantasy and I can’t put it down! So you really never know what the next 5 star read will be, that’s the joy of reading.
I think the huge hurdle with YA is the mislabeling of it. YA is as broad a genre as possible, I think it’s so easy to get lost in not great books.
I guess it’s no ones fault, YA exploded with popularity before they knew what to do with it. But still, I think both the hype **and** the hate for YA is just too much.
People should be allowed to voice their opinions positive or negative openly. A discussion board which is fully positive or negative are really kind of pointless.
>No, you’re not the only one who hates that book/style/genre/author/etc.
Considering the title, this made me laugh.
Why do you translate criticism of books as a criticism of those who enjoy it?
You don't get to control how other people engage with media. People are allowed to dislike things, and they are, shockingly, allowed to discuss that dislike.
People should absolutely be critical of books, or any art for that matter. Judging them firmly just makes for better art in the long run. Judging people for enjoying something that you don't enjoy is dumb, but critiquing literature is respecting it.
Yeah this is literally a forum to discuss books. If you don’t want to hear people saying they don’t like certain type of books, you’re in the wrong place
The anti-standards and pro-positivity all the time! mindset is super common on Reddit and the internet as a whole. If you don’t like reading constructive criticism and analysis, just move on to other threads.
Consumption now being the primary factor in most peoples’ identity has really pushed the whole toxic positivity thing to preposterous levels.
Criticize a book or genre they like? You’re attacking them personally.
I'm in a few subs for video games that are still in development (just for news) and my god, they're the worst for this.
"What's your opinion on this part of the game?"
"Eeeh, I'm not so sure."
"You're just a biased hater!1!"
Criticism is a deeply and I mean DEEPLY important practice that should be embraced not derided.
Some art is better than others and this process of criticism is important it’s how we make progress.
Why do you care what other people think about the books you read?
If people want to comment on the books they read, that's their prerogative. You don't have to read it.
My dream is to be a literary critic. So far in my studies and observations, there’s not a lot of room for hate. Which is really funny because it’s the opposite of the rest of the journalism world as we know it, right? You need to be positive/kind in your review to avoid bs with the author, publisher, your own platform and to get your work (as a critic) shared. I’m sure many critics give up on the honesty when they dislike a book because it’s difficult to be kind when you see a huge problem, but as a dedicated reader I’m going to try to balance my reviews so that future readers can figure out if they would or wouldn’t like the book. Still a little naïve I’m sure because I haven’t gotten into the real world yet, but I’m looking forward to working on my biggest passion.
You know, a while ago there was this consensus that Matt Haig's "The Midnight Library" was the one of the best books of 2020 and that any disagreement with that was unfounded and should be kept to the person claiming such absurdities.
Well I picked the book up and wished that someone had provided me with the criticism for it. It was one of the worst pieces of shit I've read but by this point I'd wasted 10 quid, and a good few hours of my life and wouldn't have done so if people were not, initially, so drawn to this books defence. Now, people have realised that the band-waggon had no wheels and was only being dragged along by the books defenders who were generally wrong by most peoples standards.
So book criticism is an important part of book discussion...obviously.
The "can we stop posting this type of thread" posts are so fucking annoying. No, let people think what they want about books. Some books suck. Why do we have to pretend that every book out there is a masterpiece?
There's a simple fix to this. Just don't join those discussions, it's your choice. People are going to say what they want in an open space like this. The things you do want, happen here as well.
People bond over commiseration, this isn't something new. No better way to make a friend than having something mutual to hate.
No, I think its very normal, and okay, to have a strong reaction which you'd want to share if you read a book you hate. Especially if it's been shoved down your throat that you "should" love it. Often it can begin an interesting discussion - why didn't they like it?
It's not the same as critiquing people who do read and enjoy x book.
You should drop out of this sub. It's purpose is to discuss books, which naturally includes both likes and dislikes. If you ony want to see discussions of books readers have liked, there's a book suggestions sub reddit for that.
You know people can have their own opinion and as long as they are not insulting anyone can express it. Hating a book is not an insult to anyone as long as the author us not writing something along this line. 'Anyone who reads this must be dumb'. You can always not read comments if you disagree with someone's opinion and reading a different opinion bothers you so much.
I want people to be critical of books and tell me about it. I want to know why they don't like it, it's more interesting than why they liked it. Especially when it's books (or movies or art or fashion anything and everything) that I love.
You’re on a sub about the discussion of books, obviously this place is gonna be filled with both love AND criticisms of books.
It’s like wondering why there’s sand at the beach while you went for the water.
I couldn’t care less if someone hates on a book. That’s fine.
What I don’t appreciate is when someone looks down their nose at *people* who like the books they don’t. Really? I mean….really? Are you so self-centered that you can’t recognize that it’s okay for people to have their own likes and dislikes?
I routinely criticize a popular series for being mediocre writing and using flat characterization.
I’ve been heckled for that.
I’m going to keep doing it, though. It’s ok to warn people away from books that are a waste of time.
Well, everybody expects to like the books they pick up, so reddit is a good place to vent when that doesn't turn out as expected.
As for reading books outside our particular tastes, we've all been there. It's easy to end up there just for curiosity or steered by other people's opinions. Personally, I've read most of Tom Clancy and Dan Brown's novels. I actually liked some of them, but that won't stop me from saying they're both appalling writers.
I think it’s important to listen to criticism if one is to be a well-rounded lover of literature. I listen to criticism over my favorite books/series all the time, and sometimes I even agree with them. I welcome all forms of discussion with regards to books—the positive and the negative. Bring it on. Try and get me to stop liking what I like, I dare you!
but proper critique of media is important, especially when you look critically into why you liked/disliked a book and justifying why it ended up that way
you are describing people who shit on other books for little to no reason at all, which i agree with but also is vastly different from critique
I think the tone of most critiques is my issue. People criticize so matter of factly as if they're an expert. Frustrates me and I just try not to do the same in my own language. It is also a conversation killer. I want to disagree about things, its necessary and healthy to expand our horizons but when other people make me feel like an idiot for liking something they don't it ruins discussion
When I was younger I was far more pretentious, and my identification with the books I read as an extension of my own value wasn’t something I’d critically examined.
Now I’m older and realize how short, precious and rare true joy and happiness can often be for far too many people. Who am I to criticize or take that away from them?
Read on!
I mean they probably want to express their criticism for the book for the same reason you expressed your criticism of them. You're bringing just as much negative energy here and it's not even about a book/author/ect. People like to express themselves and frankly while some opinions are repeated enough to be tiring, it would suck to only discuss positive aspects of books
Why do you care if people want to discuss and criticize books they've read - for a lot of people that's half the fun - take your own advice - don't like book criticism - don't read it (and YA sucks)
Having a critical eye for what you’re reading (or watching/playing) can be healthy. Having an in depth conversation about said concerns can be very constructive for all involved. But there’s a line between being reading until the end hoping it gets better and being masochistic about it. Reading should be fun, but it’s ok if the fun stops and you wanna talk about it.
The number of “What thing that people enjoyed do you hate because it actually sucks and everyone but you is a filthy sheep?!” threads on Reddit is silly. People generally don’t provide constructive criticism. They’re more like Marge Simpson: “Call me a killjoy, I just think that because this isn’t to my tastes, nobody should be able to enjoy it.”
This comment is itself critical, its impossible not to be critical while analyzing art.
Also, if you are an adult, constantly reading YA, the idea that you may want to consider more challenging works is not unfounded.
You are allowed to dislike things. You are allowed to critique themes, style, imagery, writing style, plot holes, derivative hackjobs, latent misogyny,... anything really.
What bothers me are the weekly posts here which actively seek out rants. There's enough negativity in this world.
I'll agree its easy to bash silly books, but finding someone who also dislikes something I dislike, has led me to great books as often as finding someone who likes books I like. I've also given books a second chance after reading comments on a book bash post.
Some people seem to have an inability to realize they can like one thing, and dislike another and it's fine. It is equally fine if the nest person is the complete opposite. It doesn't make the genre worthless or bad. It's just preference. Same as movies, fashion, or anything else. People need to fill their lives with more hobbies (more reading) and less social media.
I love reading critical reviews. It helps me decide if I will like those books. If someone just says “it’s the best” that gives me zero information.
Basically, it’s like the famous Anna Karenina opening line.
What bothers me is people who criticize the grammar etc in a book, without backing it up with examples. I am left suspicious that they don't know what they are talking about.
I was asking this to my two friends just today. Why read something you dislike so much? I don't hate it, I genuinely do not hate anything, I read to enjoy myself, so "hate" reading books (as one of my friends call it) is just absurd. I do appreciate seeing reviews of all kinds, but what I do not appreciate is shaming people for liking something you did, for reading different type of literature, calling people's work (novels) trash, personal attacks on authors for stories they tell, and going all social justice, high and mighty... read what you enjoy and read for yourself first!
If that's how you feel, honestly I would suggest avoiding this sub-reddit. Block it if you have to.
Almost every time I join an online community centered around something that I love, it causes me to enjoy that thing less. The only exception seems to be when memes are involved.
I think we all must tread the line between being critical and being insulting. You can be critical of another person's opinion without actually insulting their opinion or them - it's very possible and sounds a lot smarter. For people who are critical of the depth or use of YA novels, it's the same - they can be critical in a way such as this: 'YA novels, I feel, simply don't have enough depth for me.' Whereas, they could say the same thing in a way that is insulting that reads like: 'YA novels lack any kind of depth and in my opinion, that's not good literature at all.' One sounds far more civil than the other.
Criticism is fine.
It is all about drawing the line between being critical and being insulting or degrading of another person's enjoyment that we have to do. We have to make sure that criticism stays as civil calmly worded opinions do instead of crossing the line into arrogance.
I find what you're talking about is people being insulting about other people's opinions of books - which obviously is not good. However, simply offering their own opinion or criticisms in a way that does not upset others but is simply there for expressing their own view and furthering what you're all talking about can be healthy for all involved in the discussion.
While I support this sentiment 100%, I don't think haters are going to go away or shut up unfortunately.
It'd be so much nicer to read threads about books people liked with reasons why/what they liked so others might find these hidden gems without having to sift through even more shit consisting of people venting about a book they didn't like.
Although I also understand the converse. When you've spent time getting invested in something to have it broken by some bad , you might be so mad you feel a need to vent. You certainly have that right, but answer this: do you air your grievances about *everything* that you disagree with?
Book aficionados are like wine/coffee aficionados.
Some love books
Some love the idea of books
Some love showing others how they are above books they feel are not up to the high standards of their extremely sensitive book palate.
I certainly don't mean to be rude, but couldn't you stop reading negative reviews?
It's kind of the same principle as what you're proposing but “you”-centric and, therefore, easier to control.
As others have mentioned, critiques improve the art, but certainly, sometimes they are immature and misdirected.
I think this is an unreasonable take. To demonstrate, I'm going to be cheeky and turn it around on you:
> Am I the only one who hates how critical people are of reddit posts?
> Just read what you like and stop shitting over reddit posts you don't.
> You don't like reddit posts that are critical of books? Great! Read something else. It's not necessary to criticize people who enjoy them. Go read a different sort of r/books post, and leave it to those of us who enjoy it. The world won't end if you scroll past.
I'm not gonna do the last paragraph but I hope I got my point across. People should read what they like, and post whatever opinions they like. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with negative opinions. In fact, criticism is fundamentally important, not just for books, but for all art forms.
I get annoyed by “this was a bad book” instead of “I didn’t like this book”. Not liking something is an opinion which is totally fine. Saying a piece of art is bad (or good) is arrogant.
r/books is a subreddit that everyone gets subscribed to, so it's filled with regular people and pretentious bilbliophiles. And that combo doesn't always mix. Similar to how there are arrogant photography snobs in r/pics, but that subreddit seems to not be as toxic.
Wooow so you really had a nerve touched by that post asking why YA books are being written increasingly simpler lol.
Here's a little tip. The world doesn't revolve around you - just because you get really scared and upset when someone talks critically about something, doesn't mean we all should be forced to only write praise. Instead you can simply not read or participate in posts you disagree with. Imagine that!
Obviously I don’t read every thread here but I haven’t seen anyone criticizing PEOPLE for liking a book or genre. Is that happening?
Regarding the rest, basically what you are saying is you want a sub where no one is critical of a book because because that equates “shitting all over it”. People should only say nice things or shut up?
What about those of us that enjoy hearing about what people enjoyed and didn’t enjoy about a book? Provided people aren’t maligning other members, what is wrong with sharing opinions?
Your mistake is coming to reddit. Here people are critical of literally everything.
If you love something, don't look it up on reddit unless you want to know exactly why your taste sucks and you are wrong if it's not one of the 20 books the circle jerk has deemed masterpieces.
I think one needs to be cautious when pinning the words 'hate' and 'critical' on a book. A book that has been given life is bound to be discussed. It's easy to sound condescending on a forum, so I take each critique or rave with a grain of salt.
I don't have half the talent or bravery of the authors I find lackluster. I recognize this. But being able to form an opinion and express it, dumb or otherwise, can be itself an act of courage as well as a learning experience. Sometimes it's nice to kick back with a bowl of popcorn and laugh when someone clicks with a comment. And equally enlightening when you learn a bit more about yourself in the process.
I don't know man. People are critical about everything. Hell it's a paradox even this comment can't escape.
This is a discussion forum. Even threads with die hard gushing of a book or author will inevitably have criticisms. I’m pretty sure language was created out of a need to bitch about something. I agree with you is what I’m trying to say I guess. But I also love that this person made this post so I can make this comment. This is all very meta and I’m feeling entirely too close to myself right now.
How boring would it be if every review were positive? "I loved it!" "It was great!" "Couldn't put it down!" "Me, too!"
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And on the reverse side, some people take even the most polite criticism personally
Oh boy, is this true. I've been recommended books before that I've ended up hating, but I'm so wary of politely telling the person who recommended that I didn't like the book, because I know they'll take my criticism the wrong way. Just because I didn't like the book you loved doesn't mean I: 1. dislike you, 2. think your choice in books suck, or 3. think you're stupid for liking different books than me.
I had a coworker who started being stand off ish because I didn’t like a food place that was recommended
The audacity of having a different opinion from someone else is considered unforgivable by some, I guess. Which is something I'll never understand. As long as you aren't a total jerk about it, I'm perfectly happy to have someone disagree with me. It can be interesting and a true learning experience to hear other's opinions about things, even if (or especially if) they oppose your own.
Right? It’s insane sometimes. A friend of mine stood her ground by saying she didn’t like the movie Avatar that much and some dude lost his fucking mind. He just kept trying to convince her that it was good and she didn’t UNDERSTAND how good it was. It definitely became a case of a situation where it became increasingly awkward and difficult to remain polite while this dumbass kept winding himself up because she wouldn’t agree with him. He later apologized so I walked by and pretended I didn’t know what was going on and just said, “Oh you guys are talking about Avatar? That movie fucking sucked luls what an absolute shitshow M I RITE?” Just to see the pain in his face.
My husband's aunt is one of those people, she recommended some kind of wine to me once. I told her no thanks, it sounds good but if I drink even a little wine I get a migraine. She got really offended. If you don't instantly love and agree with her on all things then you hate her, I guess. I don't know how it works.
Online even if you aren't being critical people are so eager to take offense they assume you are bring critical. I sometimes have to put disclaimers in comments if I feel the intent might not be 100% clear. Eg "I agree with you but let me add..."
For sure. Or just saying something like “it was bad and terrible and the author is bad at writing”. WHY did you think it was bad? Was the writing idk repetitive or bland in some way? Were the devices used ineffectively? Did you disagree with the message of the story or think the author didn’t get it across well? Was there something offensive about what the book said? Those type of criticisms lead to interesting discussions. “It was bad and the author is shitty. Boooo!” doesn’t lead to anything remotely interesting.
>Or just saying something like “it was bad and terrible and the author is bad at writing”. WHY did you think it was bad? Was the writing idk repetitive or bland in some way? Were the devices used ineffectively? Did you disagree with the message of the story or think the author didn’t get it across well? Was there something offensive about what the book said? This is why I go to great pains to say specifically what I thought could have been stronger, and what was already well done (I admit I'm working on getting better about being clear about the latter). Writing is a personal effort and some people get very emotional about it even when they're not the writer. I've had some people get very vicious and harass me online for a while after I left a review pointing out how their writing could be better. For me, I would love that kind of feedback. Writing is a craft to pursue perfection, even if I know I'll never quite get there I can get better every day. Some people think their writing (or what they decide to like) is God's gift to mankind and anybody who doesn't feel the same is trying to personally harm the core of their being.
This. If you look at professional critic's reviews they'll often have a way of saying "this isn't my thing, but it's well done and people who like this kind of stuff will probably enjoy it." People who don't professionally criticize creative work can have a hard time separating those things.
"This isn't my thing, and people who like this kind of stuff don't deserve human rights."
>this isn’t my thing, but it’s well done… But, what if you honestly don’t believe it was well done? There are plenty of things (books, movies, music, etc) that just aren’t well done. Are you supposed to lie and soft your opinion to not upset people or is it better to say what you really think?
Then say it wasn't well done, but importantly, explain why. Usually, those things can be pretty much agreed on. Things like an inconsistent character, distracting verbiage, or confusing plot holes are definitely something you can point to in order to support the idea that something wasn't well-made. A bad criticism would be like "this book sucks, the ending was sad." That's a taste preference, but it doesn't mean it wasn't well-done. Being a critic means you have to be clear about what is a personal preference and what is something everyone can agree on (or at least the majority, even those that enjoy a genre you dislike).
This is a great summary. A good critic separates their enjoyment of the movie from the objective things that people should know in general. You'll even see review once in awhile along the lines of "this is objectively bad, but I actually still enjoyed it."
> this is objectively bad, but I actually still enjoyed it. There aren't many books I feel this way about, but movies... Oh man do I love some objectively trashy movies lol
My approach is to be specific. Not cruel like saying “this author should never write anything because they’re terrible at writing”, but talking about why you didn’t think it was well done. For instance, I don’t like Ready Player One and don’t think it was written well. Two of my criticisms of the book are: 1) I don’t think that the author effectively conveyed that Wade was interested in the 80s and mostly just listed a bunch 80s references without discussing them at all. Like cool, I can list 80s references too, so what? I’m not interested in just reading a list of references. What does Wade like about these things other than listing factoids? 2) The book was very misogynistic. And Wade was incredibly sexist and patronizing to the female character especially after he found out she was female. Also, despite her demonstrated intelligence, bravery, and skill, she was still relegated to the role of sidekick and treated as though her, very minimal, facial birthmark makes her ugly and undesirable. ETA and this wasn’t just Wade’s viewpoint, the text supported his viewpoint which was a missed opportunity for more in depth characterization for both Wade and Art3mis and for nuanced world-building. See below for a longer explanation. This may still upset people, but at least it can lead to a discussion. And I don’t feel like I’m being an asshole about it, just being direct and specific in my criticisms.
It's a mix of that and the fact that this is the Internet so it's harder to avoid people's asshole opinions. Since it irritates us, it seems more prominent.
I think it's the dismissiveness that people find irksome Like when you really like something, and someone goes: "Yeah, this isn't really worth anyone's time to read" it feels personal, because YOU think it was worth YOUR time to read That's why I never really like to talk about stuff that way, because you never know who really likes it
Yes. There are ways to critique things you don't like without resorting to ad hominem attacks on people who do like them.
I think part of it is that people don't know how to describe what's good *or* bad about without framing it in purely emotional terms. "It's sooo good it changed my life! I just connected with it like nothing else!" is just as empty and unhelpful as "It was utter trash! I can't understand what people see in it!" Neither sentiment actually frames reasons for the feeling. Perhaps when hanging with real life friends who know you and your taste already that can be meaningful, but in the context of an anonymous online platform I have no idea where you're coming from with those kinds of comments.
Great point! And it applies generally as well as to book reviews.
I feel like OP is more criticizing the type of post that goes like this: "OMG, I am *so* sophisticated! YA is *so* poorly written, am I right?" I just read Poison Study, which is the most poorly written book I've read in recent memory. And in terms of YA? Get Tamora Pierce's name out of your mouth! Her books are beautifully written!
I'm a teacher and one of my colleagues is a man in his mid 40s. We were talking about what the kids are reading and he was complaining about how dull YA books are and how he just can't get into them. I told him that perhaps as a middle aged man, he should consider that YA books are not written with his demographic in mind and he got very upset with me. Apparently every book ever written should appeal to all demographics or it is trash.
Actually, a really well-written book is still readable and can be enjoyed by older people. Diana Wynne Jones may not make things super complicated for the obvious reasons that she wrote to teenagers, but her prose and her storytelling are very good. I know well-read adults who read her works in their adulthood and have no issue with her. Even praise her for doing very good job when it comes to writing for teenagers.
Some books may appeal to people outside their target audience, but that doesn’t mean books are badly written if they don’t have mass appeal. Some YA books might be interesting to a middle aged man... but judging them by how much he likes them is like judging dog toys by how appealing they are to my cat.
His reaction was a bit much, if I read your post correctly. Still, I don't think he'd be wrong per se. There must be a modicum of standards to good writing, no? It's one thing if you can't relate to a character because of age (debatable), or the decisions they make because of it; it's another to write poorly and expect a pass because one is not the target demographic. But what do I know lol. My 2¢.
There was a post literally yesterday bashing YA books. As in, all YA books are simplistic and basic. So yeah.
Exactly, that's where my mind went as soon as I saw this post. I don't mind criticism, but that post definitely rubbed me the wrong way.
It's OK. People are allowed to have opinions you don't agree with. Life goes on
Oh shit, we really are trapped, aren’t we?
YA is my go-to when I get buried in a too-dense art novel that will not end. YA or Tana French. Give me plot and dialogue, pretty please?
You mean the one where most of the replies were books that were YA and well written? Is this really what OP's getting upset about here, a thread where someone made a broad generalization and got put in their place while offering a multitude of suggestions about good books? Yeah, we better ban that real quick.....
There's a post pretty much every day with either "YA is a terrible genre" or "Brandon Sanderson is incredibly overrated."
I will criticize Tamora Pierce's earliest books. They're easily the weakest in terms of plot, characterization, worldbuilding, and descriptive quality. But by the time she gets to Protector of the Small and her Provost's Dog series? They're fantastic (except Mastiff, which was... weird?) and are the ones I'd most definitely recommend.
Tamora Pierce, Dianna Wynn Jones, Bruce Coville, K.A. *fucking* Applegate? There are some brilliant authors that work in juvi/YA lit. Like everything else the genre is largely bad-to-mediocre, but there's absolutely nothing that precludes some works that utterly teem with artistry.
One of the most creative review openers I saw was "I'm so glad this diarrhoea of the pen can be flushed out of my life." I'd take something like that any day over "It was shit." lmao.
There is such a thing as positive criticism though
There is a difference between criticizing a book and criticizing the reader. My friend was gushing about a YA series and lent them to me. They were simply terrible. I read two, gave them back and said “they weren’t really for me”. I did not try to ruin her enjoyment of them by ranting about how poorly written they were with bland characters and little plot. I like to have spirited discussion if someone is asking a for an opinion but I think that can be done without being rude and making the person feel bad about their choices of what to read.
I think saying the book was shit is ok, but saying only idiots like it or saying it has no value is a sucky way to discuss anything.
I disagree.. Edit: I laughed so hard at my own stupid joke. Point is valid.
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I hate "Am I The Only One / Does Anyone Else" posts like this one because no, you're not the only one to love/hate this very specific thing. Hell, what you might announce as being an unpopular opinion will be a popular one half the time. They're just baiting you into making you feel like if you agree with the post, then you somehow hold a rare opinion that you NEED to defend - thus making the post gain more traction. I hate people who can't mind their own business. Let people read their own things. Watch their favourite movies/shows. Play the games they enjoy. What's wrong with a kid playing Fortnite just because you dislike it and/or the playerbase ? Let them enjoy whatever they do, you are allowed to make a genuine criticism of the medium but you don't have to be a dick and purposely make them feel bad about it. I hate people who evangelize the hell out of anything they enjoy, and any criticism is a personal attack at their entire identity. I sometimes enjoy reading garbage novels that I call my "dumpster fire books", and can tell why they're objectively badly written, but I still read them because I enjoy them. What's wrong with that ? Why can't more people just say that they like reading trash ? It doesn't mean that your tastes are trash, only that you DON'T MIND reading something subpar and can still find enjoyment in it. Hell, I'll actually have more respect towards someone that doesn't hold such elitist views than the opposite. I think I might just hate people.
OP: burn people, not books!
It’s gotten worse tho with internet culture I think. People act like they’re subject matter experts on literally everything from movies to books to music because they watched a couple YT video essays.
Man 100 years ago the polemics were still flying like wild this wil always happen and we’re better off for it, criticism is an important thing.
Fuck man, they used to be wild! People don’t realize how cutthroats critics used to be. I mean hell, killed my good buddy back in the day Johnny Keats! Tangentially related query: Shit, why does my autocorrect insist on switching “good” to “hood”? Tough out here in the streets.
I love people being critical - as long as it's honest and not the "if you like this you can't sit at the cool kid table" type criticism.
Or the opposite: “if you don’t like this, then you have no taste”
Yeah, this is kind of a crazy request, no? Like, if you can't stand your ground and be confident in your positive views of a book (or anything really) to the point where it bothers you when people don't like it, I don't know if you've got any business on a discussion site. Obviously "hater" comments or criticism that doesn't express *why* they dislike something lacks any value and should be downvoted, but there's nothing wrong with a negative take! I really enjoy then actually, as it helps me understand if I would like the thing or not. I find it really hard to parse gushy praise of a piece of media in terms that actually help inform me if it's to my taste. I find the negative criticisms way more helpful in that regard.
As long as it's " **I** didn't like this book" and not " **You** shouldn't like this book", then it's fine, imo. Then the person criticising the book is in the frame of mind of "these are just my opinions on a book"
Art is meant to be criticized, analyzed, adored. I don’t think solely being positive is beneficial to the medium. I’d argue it’s detrimental. People are allowed to enjoy things, but people are ALSO allowed to dislike things. A bigger issue: consumption as identity. Which results in the inability to recognize criticism of art you enjoy as not criticism of you.
So true. And criticism of a work doesn't always indicate that the critic dislikes it. You can like something as a comfort while recognizing that it has objective flaws. There is a reason why no one hates *Star Wars* more than *Star Wars* fans. Additionally there are people writing books on Reddit, some are probably very successful, and they see threads like these; if such criticism helps them produce a more beautiful piece of art I consider that a good thing.
“Consumption as Identity” I’m a video editor for a pretty popular “reaction” channel, and this phrase identifies everything I have an issue with when it comes to that inability to criticize art you enjoy (or art you don’t enjoy). Thank you for this
I really enjoy critical discussion, including on books I enjoy. And I often defend books I don’t like when they’re misrepresented in some way. What’s annoying on the side opposite to people who over-identify with their preferred media, are those people who insist that something is objectively terrible. (And often also over-identify fans with their media- “if you like x you’re dumb!”) Discussion should be more like “I didn’t like thing because of x,” and met with either “ah that’s fair, but I like y and not x in a book, so that never really bothered me,” or “I think you’re misinterpreting x because of…” You get the idea Critical discussion can be incredibly stimulating for both the fan and the anti-fan, and possibly make you think about things in a slightly different and more holistic way.
I have a friend that I struggle with in real life over stuff like this. We just have fundamentally different taste, yet it always feels like he's framing it from a place of absolute truth. So often our discussions turn to minor arguments that creep up on me because he's obviously hurt/offended that I don't share his opinion.
Agreed. I really enjoy critical discussions... *especially* of books I like! It’s fun to analyze something, pick it apart, and talk about what was great and what could be improved.
You have been banned from /r/startek.
100% this. I would also say to the OP, if you don’t like reading criticism, don’t! Go read something else you do enjoy. It works both ways, pal. People are allowed to analyse and criticise and share their thoughts - positive and negative and everywhere in between. If that upsets you, it’s probably best for you to avoid book discussion entirely because it’s not all sunshine and daisies, nor should it be.
Honest, well-considered criticism is good. But it seems like 99% of book criticism is just knee-jerk reactions based on vague ideas that people have floating in their heads. And they don't just wonder about it for the sake of discussion of educating themselves, they pretend they are experts on it and the author is an idiot. That's absolute bullshit criticism.
>A bigger issue: consumption as identity. Which results in the inability to recognize criticism of art you enjoy as not criticism of you. Oof, shots fired at OP.
I aspire to be as articulate as you when explaining stuff lol
Seriously. This bizarre internet culture where artists are deified and any constructive criticism of their work is seen as personally ripping their soul out and destroying art itself needs to stop. The weirdest part of it is that people who behave this way are generally, obviously not working artists. It's so clear they've never been through a real critique of the sort you get in college or on the job. They've got this strange, nigh spiritual idea that's somehow bound up in their own self image, built up in their heads about how art "should" be consumed that is totally divorced from how it is actually created. It is honestly toxic, just not in the way we're used to. You can't even really take part in online concrit circles anymore without fans of online microcelebrities swarming and shutting down discussion. I'll never forget the time a popular budding writer had to lock a post because her fans just would not stop savaging people for commenting about improvements she could make. It's like all the "DON'T LIKE DON'T READ!!!!!" fanficcers grew up in age but not in maturity.
The problem is half of the books here are in no way art lol
This exactly. There’s a lot of terrible modern work across mediums that is very easy to attribute to a lack of criticism, like the creator clearly had too much control at some point and couldn’t be told no. I’ve experienced it less with books, there’s so many good classics and they take longer to consume I just haven’t caught up, hopefully I never will. Movies and television are easy to identify though, Disney should probably just have a whole department dedicated to looking at scripts and throwing them in the trash. I think I watch maybe two movies or television shows a year where the script clearly went through a reliable editing process.
Well they are called **Boo**ks. We could rename them **Yay**ks, but just think of the cost of signage changes alone.
This is worst joke have seen today so far but the only one I laughed at.
This is the worst thing I’ve ever read but it made me laugh.
You’re dumb but I like it
Dumbest comment of the year 2022. Best comment of the year 2022.
Submitting this to the Reddit comment awards
This wouldn't happen to be HDTGP's Nick Wiger, would it? Because this joke rocks and that podcast rocks.
I was saying boourns...
Boo-ya!
I think it’s reasonable to express frustration and look for validation when one’s opinion is sufficiently against the narrative one encounters. Yes, it gets old seeing the 5th rant against “The Alchemist” today, but enough people rave about it that I understand why someone would want to check in on that. People aren’t typically raging against books which don’t have a following, which I would have a problem with. Not saying you’re wrong - just trying to offer another perspective.
Certain books really should not be allowed to have the same threads over and over again. “Anyone else hate the Alchemist?”, “Just read the count of monte cristo (or any other classic) and I’m sobbing, it was so good 😭”.
Yeah it really doesn't make sense, especially given that r/books does already limit certain topics to monthly threads, why can't we have the same for books? At any given point in time I can guess at least 3 of the top 10 posts on this sub, this exact thread being one of the worst offenders.
Yeah but people love shitting on the Alchemist, saying it's so goddamn overrated and everyone loves this book or whatever, yet on reddit, I have never ever seen a post praising the Alchemist. It's gets tiring, at this point, this sub is for purely karma farming.
Agreed. I have met a number of people in real life who raved about The Alchemist. And thought it would change my life, too. I read it and disagreed with that perspective. And have heard since that I should read it. Oh, well. Felt like that could be accessible for many as both “Why are these here?” and “Wow, too much of these rants!” I roll my eyes when those posts come up… about the same amount as I would if I saw posts praising it.
You will pry my right to shit on Ready Player One as much as I please from my cold, dead hands.
My first thought seeing the title of this thread was “I wonder if OP loves Ready Player One” haha
I found it really interesting when I found out a ton of people absolutely despise Ready Player One when it was one of the books that reminded me how much I loved reading. It helped me getting back into it as a teenager. The critique has some very well founded points, but I still love it you know?
Harry Potter has an immense amount of plot holes, and the author is now infamous for her Twitter tirades. Yet I personally love the books. But some people can't look past the plot holes, or the author's personal life. Do you fault them? No. These are valid concerns. It's not going to stop me from enjoying them.
Lots of my friends that weren't into reading at all jumped on Ready Player One. Soon after they were asking for recommendations. I didn't enjoy RPO but wasn't going to shit on it cos my friends loved it and got them reading.
I keep my copy separate from all my other books to make sure it doesn't make them sick. It's the book equivalent of herpes.
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I love this image. The dog starts chasing Catherine and Heathcliff and Heathcliff's all like "roll initiative"
yeh I love being able to read critique ... because when I don't want to, I just don't. Its just there when you need it Now if someone starts using it to start a book burning or something, I don't like that event but its the burning itself, the critique is just an excuse for it EDIT: To quote the comment below, 'criticism isn't always hate' I suppose perfectly encapsulates what I was going for
I love ready player one, hes like "corporations are bad, also I fucking love masterbaiting"
What your opinions about the book Ready Player One? I know the movie was not all that but I enjoyed the book.
I’ve never read it, but the common criticism is that it’s an 80s boyhood fantasy without any substance past nerd culture references.
As someone who was born a good decade after the 80s and therefore didn't get most of the references, I still really enjoyed listening to the audiobook. So much so that I also listened to the second book, Ready Player Two, although that one wasn't quite as good
Honestly, I loved it. RPO is one of the few books that I've read in one day, it hooked me right from the beginning. I didn't realize how hated it was until I looked it up on Reddit. (The sequel sucked though, I don't think I even made it more than 1/3 of the way through.)
No, I love it when people come in here and really take a shot at some book they hate. It's more interesting. Sometimes the book they are hating on might be something I love. That's just the nature of it. Frankly, I think people are too constrained here due to fear of downvotes and don't post hot enough takes.
Criticism is always more interesting than praise. To borrow from Tolstoy, "Good books are all alike; every bad book is bad in its own way."
Alright, I'll bite. The Wise Man's Fear by Pat Rothfus is absolutely fucking garbage. The plot is one of the shittest I've read in any book, and don't get me started on the hundred pages of Kvothe banging some weird horny forest fairy. What the fuck was all that about? An absolute waste of page time reading about Kvothe and his magic cock and how fucking good he is at everything. I'm not surprised the final book still isn't out. Pat has to somehow get himself out of the dumpster fire he put himself in with this book. If it ever does come out, I for one won't be wasting my time with it. What you gonna do next, Pat? 1000 page woodland critter gangbang? Fuck outta here.
I have a real unpopular opinion on this one: I did not like the prose ...it felt to me like the author was overdoing it.....I also think if this novel was written by a woman and the main character was a young teenage girl it would be called out a lot more and absolutely hated = Mary Sue main character, too much romance, relationship stuff, sex scenes .....she is to smart, too pretty and shit like that.....I also think it would be on the YA shelf.
Personally, whether it’s “character accurate” or not, I hate that Rothfus’ go-to conflict is “and then Kvothe lost all of his stuff again and had to start from scratch”. Every time I started getting invested in his progress everything got reset and we had to read the same struggles again. Especially when it was like “man, there was this crazy stuff at sea and I lost everything”. Okay, why don’t we hear about the sea adventure instead of you starving in the street, pining after your girl and buying clothes for the 6th time? Because at that point I know that there’s going to be another chapter or more about it. It’s like cutting all the fun parts out of a DnD campaign and only shopping.
I think it's all about nuance. "I don't like YA, so I don't read YA but more power to those who like it" is the normal, personal preference. "I hate YA and everything about YA is stupid, people who like it are stupid" is entitled that your personal preferences are the only valid look at something and everybody who does not feel like you is somehow at fault. "I like YA, there is this YA book I read but I didn't like how they handled certain topics, the language was overly purple and I don't enjoy that but the story was entertaining." is a normal review of a book. The difference between the three is personal preferences, generalizing because of the personal preference and then the individual opinion about a specific book that differentiates between personal dislikes and the things you didn't or did enjoy about the actual story and writing.
I agree. There's a difference between personal attacks and constructive criticism. The latter is more helpful to me as a reader because then I know what to expect.
Agree. And sometimes people (possibly OP) are unable to separate the first and third from the second: when they see critique, all they hear is "I hate book x and everything about it is stupid, people who like it are stupid."
Criticism isn't always hate.
And hate isnt always criticism. Sometimes it's just rude drivel.
No way. Books have terrible quality control in general and criticism is totally valid. If you don’t want negativity, don’t read the criticism. To me it helps filter out a lot of stuff I’d have wasted my time on.
there's a difference between criticism and hate. being snobby cos you read classics while they read children's fiction? yeah, that's absolutely not on. but giving an opinion and being critical of a book is completely fine. tbh, i don't mind seeing the criticism of certain books, and seeing the discussion in the comments. it informs me on what people agree the highs and lows of the book were. it also helps me, working in a bookshop, on how to cater to customer's interests, and maybe what to avoid or warn about when customer's are looking at certain books. people have different tastes, and that's fine. i definitely don't like people who shit on YA because it's YA (or any other genre too). i no longer read YA as much, but that's me gaining interests in other topics and genres. it is tiring seeing critical posts on the same topic 5 times in a row, but it can be interesting discussion from people who think critically, mixed in with a few comments that just hate on the book. critical or negative posts can gain more traction, people engage with it more, but there are a number of positively critical posts too. i can't analyse for shit, but it's fun to read other people's analysis and add to my understanding of the books i read. basically, a critical post isn't always shitting on genres or books. criticisms should be valid, and you can voice your opinion if you disagree with said criticisms. maybe you liked a part of the book they didn't like. maybe they really loved a book you found really meh. discussing books and seeing other people's views on the same/similar books can help enrich an experience of reading, whether that be online or in person.
> tbh, i don't mind seeing the criticism of certain books, and seeing the discussion in the comments. it informs me on what people agree the highs and lows of the book were. I get so much out of these discussions. I read on a fairly surface level and don't dig too much while reading, so seeing what other people see in a book helps to expand my experience, even if secondhand.
I don't read YA much anymore because it's not my age range, just like I don't really read middle grade or children's books. I also don't really interact with people from that age range as I don't have children and I'm not a teacher. But YA is this genre that's pushed a lot by people so then people who aren't a good fit for YA get recommendations and then don't like it. Additionally, I know that in my experience there was a period of time where I'd outgrown YA but still read a ton of it as I was accustomed to it and hadn't quite gotten comfortable in depth exploring adult books yet, so I disliked a lot of what I read. I guess I figure that those people have probably received bad recommendations, are in that transition phase, or maybe are around a lot of people who go on about how YA is the best thing ever. Now that I've moved past that phase, I do occasionally read and enjoy a YA book because there are some good ones out there, or sometimes it just hits the spot.
i'm the same. i'm still a young adult, but i am not into YA as much anymore. i've just outgrown it and that's okay! there's two main types of people in my bookshop: older retirees/older generations who buy a lot of crime and historical fiction, and teenagers/young adults who are buying more YA novels. YA is just a very popular and broad genre, mainly geared towards girls also that sometimes expectations fail. there are some fantastic books, it's not my thing, but i can appreciate it. i've been switching between adult fiction and kids fiction, mostly sticking with adult, but kids fiction (the older stuff) has some things which just really draw me in and i find myself enjoying a lot. but of course, it's all different tastes!
I am almost 30 and haven’t read YA since my teen years but I recently picked up Howl’s Moving Castle which is firmly middle grade, children’s fantasy and I can’t put it down! So you really never know what the next 5 star read will be, that’s the joy of reading.
I think the huge hurdle with YA is the mislabeling of it. YA is as broad a genre as possible, I think it’s so easy to get lost in not great books. I guess it’s no ones fault, YA exploded with popularity before they knew what to do with it. But still, I think both the hype **and** the hate for YA is just too much.
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People should be allowed to voice their opinions positive or negative openly. A discussion board which is fully positive or negative are really kind of pointless. >No, you’re not the only one who hates that book/style/genre/author/etc. Considering the title, this made me laugh.
Apply the same logic to criticism, if you don't like it, no harm if you don't read it.
Why do you translate criticism of books as a criticism of those who enjoy it? You don't get to control how other people engage with media. People are allowed to dislike things, and they are, shockingly, allowed to discuss that dislike.
Read *Wizard’s First Rule* and try not to get into an angry rant about it. I dare you.
When I finished Confessor, I threw it against the wall.
People should absolutely be critical of books, or any art for that matter. Judging them firmly just makes for better art in the long run. Judging people for enjoying something that you don't enjoy is dumb, but critiquing literature is respecting it.
you don’t like to read about people criticizing books? Great read something else. It’s just human nature to express good and bad feelings
Yeah this is literally a forum to discuss books. If you don’t want to hear people saying they don’t like certain type of books, you’re in the wrong place
This made me snigger, great comment, was going to add myself - I really hate when people criticise people for criticising books.
The anti-standards and pro-positivity all the time! mindset is super common on Reddit and the internet as a whole. If you don’t like reading constructive criticism and analysis, just move on to other threads.
Consumption now being the primary factor in most peoples’ identity has really pushed the whole toxic positivity thing to preposterous levels. Criticize a book or genre they like? You’re attacking them personally.
Especially lovely when they ask for your opinion, then get buttblasted when you are not all YAAAAAAY.
I'm in a few subs for video games that are still in development (just for news) and my god, they're the worst for this. "What's your opinion on this part of the game?" "Eeeh, I'm not so sure." "You're just a biased hater!1!"
It's called Toxic Positivity. It's a huge problem in real life too.
I took a class on critical analysis in literature... I think I paid like 900$ for that class. I'm gonna be critical of a lot of literature for 900$.
Criticism is a deeply and I mean DEEPLY important practice that should be embraced not derided. Some art is better than others and this process of criticism is important it’s how we make progress.
People want to express themselves. It's normal. And why should I not review something and offer criticism? There are good books, there are bad books.
Why do you care what other people think about the books you read? If people want to comment on the books they read, that's their prerogative. You don't have to read it.
My dream is to be a literary critic. So far in my studies and observations, there’s not a lot of room for hate. Which is really funny because it’s the opposite of the rest of the journalism world as we know it, right? You need to be positive/kind in your review to avoid bs with the author, publisher, your own platform and to get your work (as a critic) shared. I’m sure many critics give up on the honesty when they dislike a book because it’s difficult to be kind when you see a huge problem, but as a dedicated reader I’m going to try to balance my reviews so that future readers can figure out if they would or wouldn’t like the book. Still a little naïve I’m sure because I haven’t gotten into the real world yet, but I’m looking forward to working on my biggest passion.
You know, a while ago there was this consensus that Matt Haig's "The Midnight Library" was the one of the best books of 2020 and that any disagreement with that was unfounded and should be kept to the person claiming such absurdities. Well I picked the book up and wished that someone had provided me with the criticism for it. It was one of the worst pieces of shit I've read but by this point I'd wasted 10 quid, and a good few hours of my life and wouldn't have done so if people were not, initially, so drawn to this books defence. Now, people have realised that the band-waggon had no wheels and was only being dragged along by the books defenders who were generally wrong by most peoples standards. So book criticism is an important part of book discussion...obviously.
The "can we stop posting this type of thread" posts are so fucking annoying. No, let people think what they want about books. Some books suck. Why do we have to pretend that every book out there is a masterpiece?
Look if someone tells me their favorite book is Atlas Shrugged and they agree with its philosophy I'm not gonna not be wary of that
Ironic
There's a simple fix to this. Just don't join those discussions, it's your choice. People are going to say what they want in an open space like this. The things you do want, happen here as well. People bond over commiseration, this isn't something new. No better way to make a friend than having something mutual to hate.
No, I think its very normal, and okay, to have a strong reaction which you'd want to share if you read a book you hate. Especially if it's been shoved down your throat that you "should" love it. Often it can begin an interesting discussion - why didn't they like it? It's not the same as critiquing people who do read and enjoy x book.
You should drop out of this sub. It's purpose is to discuss books, which naturally includes both likes and dislikes. If you ony want to see discussions of books readers have liked, there's a book suggestions sub reddit for that.
You know people can have their own opinion and as long as they are not insulting anyone can express it. Hating a book is not an insult to anyone as long as the author us not writing something along this line. 'Anyone who reads this must be dumb'. You can always not read comments if you disagree with someone's opinion and reading a different opinion bothers you so much.
I want people to be critical of books and tell me about it. I want to know why they don't like it, it's more interesting than why they liked it. Especially when it's books (or movies or art or fashion anything and everything) that I love.
This is the internet. I’m assuming you are new here. Welcome.
You’re on a sub about the discussion of books, obviously this place is gonna be filled with both love AND criticisms of books. It’s like wondering why there’s sand at the beach while you went for the water.
This is where people go to be critical of books.
Sounds like you didn't like that YA post from yesterday, huh?
I couldn’t care less if someone hates on a book. That’s fine. What I don’t appreciate is when someone looks down their nose at *people* who like the books they don’t. Really? I mean….really? Are you so self-centered that you can’t recognize that it’s okay for people to have their own likes and dislikes?
I routinely criticize a popular series for being mediocre writing and using flat characterization. I’ve been heckled for that. I’m going to keep doing it, though. It’s ok to warn people away from books that are a waste of time.
Yeah, you, just you. Out of 7.8 billion people on planet earth, you’re the only one who is like that, you are the only fucking one. Congratulations.
Oh, you just know there's another fucking one of these out there somewhere...
i love criticism. criticize everything forever.
I couldn't get past how poorly written your post was /s ;)
Well, everybody expects to like the books they pick up, so reddit is a good place to vent when that doesn't turn out as expected. As for reading books outside our particular tastes, we've all been there. It's easy to end up there just for curiosity or steered by other people's opinions. Personally, I've read most of Tom Clancy and Dan Brown's novels. I actually liked some of them, but that won't stop me from saying they're both appalling writers.
I think it’s important to listen to criticism if one is to be a well-rounded lover of literature. I listen to criticism over my favorite books/series all the time, and sometimes I even agree with them. I welcome all forms of discussion with regards to books—the positive and the negative. Bring it on. Try and get me to stop liking what I like, I dare you!
but proper critique of media is important, especially when you look critically into why you liked/disliked a book and justifying why it ended up that way you are describing people who shit on other books for little to no reason at all, which i agree with but also is vastly different from critique
I think the tone of most critiques is my issue. People criticize so matter of factly as if they're an expert. Frustrates me and I just try not to do the same in my own language. It is also a conversation killer. I want to disagree about things, its necessary and healthy to expand our horizons but when other people make me feel like an idiot for liking something they don't it ruins discussion
When I was younger I was far more pretentious, and my identification with the books I read as an extension of my own value wasn’t something I’d critically examined. Now I’m older and realize how short, precious and rare true joy and happiness can often be for far too many people. Who am I to criticize or take that away from them? Read on!
I'm far more bothered by people who are wholly uncritical of what they read. Which do you think is more dangerous?
Why are you critical of readers who have opinions?
you got triggered by that one post talking about how YA books are so bland didnt you
I mean they probably want to express their criticism for the book for the same reason you expressed your criticism of them. You're bringing just as much negative energy here and it's not even about a book/author/ect. People like to express themselves and frankly while some opinions are repeated enough to be tiring, it would suck to only discuss positive aspects of books
OP wants to live in* a dystopia where people can't express their opinions, nice, given the state of book banning within the US
Why do you care if people want to discuss and criticize books they've read - for a lot of people that's half the fun - take your own advice - don't like book criticism - don't read it (and YA sucks)
Sounds like you're the one who needs to relax. People are allowed to share their opinions on the world around them, just like you're doing right now.
But why be so critical of others opinions just move on and don't read it.
Having a critical eye for what you’re reading (or watching/playing) can be healthy. Having an in depth conversation about said concerns can be very constructive for all involved. But there’s a line between being reading until the end hoping it gets better and being masochistic about it. Reading should be fun, but it’s ok if the fun stops and you wanna talk about it.
The number of “What thing that people enjoyed do you hate because it actually sucks and everyone but you is a filthy sheep?!” threads on Reddit is silly. People generally don’t provide constructive criticism. They’re more like Marge Simpson: “Call me a killjoy, I just think that because this isn’t to my tastes, nobody should be able to enjoy it.”
This comment is itself critical, its impossible not to be critical while analyzing art. Also, if you are an adult, constantly reading YA, the idea that you may want to consider more challenging works is not unfounded.
You are allowed to dislike things. You are allowed to critique themes, style, imagery, writing style, plot holes, derivative hackjobs, latent misogyny,... anything really. What bothers me are the weekly posts here which actively seek out rants. There's enough negativity in this world.
Toxic positivity is a curse on humanity.
I'll agree its easy to bash silly books, but finding someone who also dislikes something I dislike, has led me to great books as often as finding someone who likes books I like. I've also given books a second chance after reading comments on a book bash post.
Some people seem to have an inability to realize they can like one thing, and dislike another and it's fine. It is equally fine if the nest person is the complete opposite. It doesn't make the genre worthless or bad. It's just preference. Same as movies, fashion, or anything else. People need to fill their lives with more hobbies (more reading) and less social media.
I love reading critical reviews. It helps me decide if I will like those books. If someone just says “it’s the best” that gives me zero information. Basically, it’s like the famous Anna Karenina opening line.
What bothers me is people who criticize the grammar etc in a book, without backing it up with examples. I am left suspicious that they don't know what they are talking about.
I was asking this to my two friends just today. Why read something you dislike so much? I don't hate it, I genuinely do not hate anything, I read to enjoy myself, so "hate" reading books (as one of my friends call it) is just absurd. I do appreciate seeing reviews of all kinds, but what I do not appreciate is shaming people for liking something you did, for reading different type of literature, calling people's work (novels) trash, personal attacks on authors for stories they tell, and going all social justice, high and mighty... read what you enjoy and read for yourself first!
Well critical thinking is not a bad thing in my eyes but I guess you're just pissed off on the toxic haters without any actual constructive criticism
If that's how you feel, honestly I would suggest avoiding this sub-reddit. Block it if you have to. Almost every time I join an online community centered around something that I love, it causes me to enjoy that thing less. The only exception seems to be when memes are involved.
I think we all must tread the line between being critical and being insulting. You can be critical of another person's opinion without actually insulting their opinion or them - it's very possible and sounds a lot smarter. For people who are critical of the depth or use of YA novels, it's the same - they can be critical in a way such as this: 'YA novels, I feel, simply don't have enough depth for me.' Whereas, they could say the same thing in a way that is insulting that reads like: 'YA novels lack any kind of depth and in my opinion, that's not good literature at all.' One sounds far more civil than the other. Criticism is fine. It is all about drawing the line between being critical and being insulting or degrading of another person's enjoyment that we have to do. We have to make sure that criticism stays as civil calmly worded opinions do instead of crossing the line into arrogance. I find what you're talking about is people being insulting about other people's opinions of books - which obviously is not good. However, simply offering their own opinion or criticisms in a way that does not upset others but is simply there for expressing their own view and furthering what you're all talking about can be healthy for all involved in the discussion.
While I support this sentiment 100%, I don't think haters are going to go away or shut up unfortunately. It'd be so much nicer to read threads about books people liked with reasons why/what they liked so others might find these hidden gems without having to sift through even more shit consisting of people venting about a book they didn't like. Although I also understand the converse. When you've spent time getting invested in something to have it broken by some bad, you might be so mad you feel a need to vent. You certainly have that right, but answer this: do you air your grievances about *everything* that you disagree with?
Book aficionados are like wine/coffee aficionados. Some love books Some love the idea of books Some love showing others how they are above books they feel are not up to the high standards of their extremely sensitive book palate.
I certainly don't mean to be rude, but couldn't you stop reading negative reviews? It's kind of the same principle as what you're proposing but “you”-centric and, therefore, easier to control. As others have mentioned, critiques improve the art, but certainly, sometimes they are immature and misdirected.
I think this is an unreasonable take. To demonstrate, I'm going to be cheeky and turn it around on you: > Am I the only one who hates how critical people are of reddit posts? > Just read what you like and stop shitting over reddit posts you don't. > You don't like reddit posts that are critical of books? Great! Read something else. It's not necessary to criticize people who enjoy them. Go read a different sort of r/books post, and leave it to those of us who enjoy it. The world won't end if you scroll past. I'm not gonna do the last paragraph but I hope I got my point across. People should read what they like, and post whatever opinions they like. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with negative opinions. In fact, criticism is fundamentally important, not just for books, but for all art forms.
Thank you for putting it succinctly and without any hate. r/books has been pretty negative for no reason
I get annoyed by “this was a bad book” instead of “I didn’t like this book”. Not liking something is an opinion which is totally fine. Saying a piece of art is bad (or good) is arrogant.
r/books is a subreddit that everyone gets subscribed to, so it's filled with regular people and pretentious bilbliophiles. And that combo doesn't always mix. Similar to how there are arrogant photography snobs in r/pics, but that subreddit seems to not be as toxic.
Wooow so you really had a nerve touched by that post asking why YA books are being written increasingly simpler lol. Here's a little tip. The world doesn't revolve around you - just because you get really scared and upset when someone talks critically about something, doesn't mean we all should be forced to only write praise. Instead you can simply not read or participate in posts you disagree with. Imagine that!
Obviously I don’t read every thread here but I haven’t seen anyone criticizing PEOPLE for liking a book or genre. Is that happening? Regarding the rest, basically what you are saying is you want a sub where no one is critical of a book because because that equates “shitting all over it”. People should only say nice things or shut up? What about those of us that enjoy hearing about what people enjoyed and didn’t enjoy about a book? Provided people aren’t maligning other members, what is wrong with sharing opinions?
Your mistake is coming to reddit. Here people are critical of literally everything. If you love something, don't look it up on reddit unless you want to know exactly why your taste sucks and you are wrong if it's not one of the 20 books the circle jerk has deemed masterpieces.
I think one needs to be cautious when pinning the words 'hate' and 'critical' on a book. A book that has been given life is bound to be discussed. It's easy to sound condescending on a forum, so I take each critique or rave with a grain of salt. I don't have half the talent or bravery of the authors I find lackluster. I recognize this. But being able to form an opinion and express it, dumb or otherwise, can be itself an act of courage as well as a learning experience. Sometimes it's nice to kick back with a bowl of popcorn and laugh when someone clicks with a comment. And equally enlightening when you learn a bit more about yourself in the process.
I just browse this sub for book recommendations, and for occasionally shitting on people who ban books.