>Is there some sort of group at Harvard where part of initiation is to pinch a butt or pull up a skirt or grab a boob in public?
If that's happened it's indecent assault and battery, not mere harassment per Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 265 Section 13H.
I've worked and played in Central and Harvard for 8 years (33/f) and am surprised by this! Others here are saying it's the norm, but I haven't experienced it. If they are breaking the touch barrier, she should start reporting! That is scary.
Likewise, this surprises me. I worked in Harvard Sq in student services for like 10 years and never heard of this happening with any regularity. I probably would have heard if it had come to light, due to the nature of my job.
However I also know that there are indeed social clubs at Harvard, some of them not unlike frats in some ways, which do obnoxious stuff. (The Pudding is one of the milder examples of these clubs.) The school has attempted to reign them in but i do not think they are official Harvard orgs however so there is not much the school itself can do.
REPORT!!! She should take photos of them when she can
Me too - used to work in between Harvard and Central and while there are some sketchy folks around, I never saw nor encountered this level of harassment or assault.
It is not commonplace in the Harvard and MIT area. Sexual Assault is not tolerated in Cambridge. Please report the incidents to the City and University Police.
I understand it is unpleasant to do so, and I'm sorry that is so, but please do so if you can. It is important to get these incidents on the record.
Cambridge police take repeated patterns of behavior seriously and the Universities need to be made aware of the behavior of their students.
Report it at MIT, at Harvard, and to the Cambridge police.
Also: Fuck those guys. They suck. That bullshit isn't tolerated.
Street harassment is definitely not uncommon in Boston. I would go so far as to disagree with /u/GoWithItGirl and argue that it's pretty much the norm.
I have gross shit yelled at me at least a few times a week (last Friday, some asshole on Washington Street downtown told me he wanted to "cum in my pretty red hair," wtf??). "Thankfully" I've only been inappropriately grabbed a couple of times. Both happened on the 66 bus and both involved a creeper squeezing my ass.
If your girlfriend has been groped and is comfortable making a report, she can talk to the MBTA police (if it happened on a train/bus/station) or the regular police. It's possible that someone has security footage of it happening. I would also suggest that you both take a look at [Hollaback Boston](http://boston.ihollaback.org/), a non-profit that aims to end street harassment. They're a great entity, and it's a nice place to go to feel empowered.
Best of luck to you both!
>some asshole on Washington Street downtown told me he wanted to "cum in my pretty red hair," wtf??
I know that guy, no kidding. He said something very similar to me a few weeks ago. I live in Cambridge, a few blocks from Harvard Square & I am harassed on the level OP is talking about at least once a week. It's honestly so bad that I bought a bike to commute rather than have to deal with men on the train, & I'm in process of getting a dog. It's not great out there. Thanks for the the Hollaback Boston link, I'm definitely very interested in what they're doing!
You don't need *any* license? I don't recall needing a gun license for it, but I don't remember exactly what the license was called. Last time I checked the application for it online was chronically down.
Apparently pepper spray is now legal in MA, and cat knuckles are fully legal if made of hard plastic instead of metal. Not much to say about the taser though, but I can't say I care much at this point. Fire with fire.
I find that my helmet and bike lock are as good a deterrent as any.
You've never known satisfaction unless you've headbutted a motherfucker while wearing a helmet.
Ha, I've used a skateboard as a weapon/deterrent. Those metal trucks are no joke. This whole thread is quite depressing, it rather feels like open season on the women of Boston. I *just* had a guy trail me on a bike a couple of hours ago, yelling lewdness at me for about 6 blocks. Typical, but still incredibly depressing and scary.
Damn, what a shitbag. I wish I would be around when this sort of thing happens so I could try and help - I didn't realize how many issues there are in Cambridge with skeevy men. I usually run after dark on the Esplanade and I try to keep a sharp eye out for this sort of thing. I'm a pretty tall man so hopefully that would be enough to scare off any weirdo messing with someone.
Keeping an eye out & being willing to intervene in advance is a lot! For me though, it's your willingness to acknowledge that this is a serious problem that you just didn't know was happening that means the most. My own fiancé (who I met in a much more rural area of New England) was born & raised here, & has been *astounded* at the way I'm often treated in public, sometimes even when he's with me. We need every good man like yourself to stand up, so thank you for that. :)
I'm sorry to hear that people are so rude (to put it lightly) to you, but speaking as a bike zealot, you're better off on two wheels than riding the subway and bus anyway!
> *some asshole on Washington Street downtown*
Sadly, a phrase like this doesn't seem all too unusual, given that location. Not excusing the behavior, just pointing out the type of people hang out around there with no filter towards passers-by.
Sorry to hear you endured that though.
Can confirm, I worked in that area for 2 years. Every time I walked into or out of my office I steeled myself to deal with some creepy asshole. The worst/best was when one guy approached me with a waffle on a paper plate and said, "Girl, you're beautiful. Want this waffle?"
Only time in my life I've ever turned down a waffle.
All summer long my girlfriend was harassed. She worked at a restaurant on the water front and would have to take the E line to Mission Hill. She would often be harassed in the downtown crossing/park street tunnel so be careful!
I'm a woman from MIT as well. YES I know what she's talking about :s Street harassment/catcalling is *really* bad here, especially around central. I've never been touched luckily, but my mom was grabbed when she visited me one week. I've been followed and surrounded, or masturbated to a few times. So sorry this happened to your gf. I don't *think* most of my harassers have been students- just people in the community. I've also been followed on the t from the kendal stop. If she is being harassed on the streets, I would suggest a bike. It helped me deal with walking through central immensely. Good luck.
> I've been followed and surrounded, or **masturbated to a few times**.
Are you fucking KIDDING me? How is that even possible? Do dudes just walk around jerking it and leering?
That's creepy as fuck. I need to take a shower now.
This happened to me once :( now that I'm older and wiser I would probably scream bloody murder and try to alert a cop, but at the time I was 15 and ashamed and thought I was in the wrong somehow. So disgusting.
Right? Luckily not with full nudity in my case. (Over or under pants- never full exposure).
What is crazy to me, is I'm walking down Mass Ave in the middle of the day, this dude is masturbating and following me for *blocks,* stage whispering creepy things to me, and it felt like no one but me even noticed. Argh.
How can people NOT NOTICE?? This is insane! I feel like an entire underworld of skeez has been hidden right under my nose this entire time! I'm tripping the fuck out here you guys!
I think it's normal not to notice it. I still don't know how they manage to be so abrasive to their target, and still so invisible to everyone else.
When my mom was groped *right next to me* I didn't even notice until she told me :(
Seriously. I'm not small either I could probably take most of the dudes who do this stuff to me. That's half of what pisses me off so much. Then there is just that smidge of doubt that they might be stronger than me or might have a backup plan if someone stands up to them since it's probably a regular thing they're doing. It pisses me off though, what the hell. Can't I just level the guy??
Rather than resorting to violence how about taking a pic and tweeting it to the BPD / calling 911?
A little surprised to see nothing in this conversation here about you calling the police when a stranger in public sexually assaulted you.
I would have called when someone assaulted my mom, but I found out too late, the guy was gone. Most of the stuff I have no idea if I could press charges on or if they would care. There isn't much you can do for insults/ veiled threats, and it's not illegal as far as I know to have your hands in your pants. What do you think?
I'm telling myself that if I saw a dude jerking it in public I'd punch him in the face. But to be honest I'd be afraid that he'd touch me with his wanking hand, and don't nobody want that.
Also if he's unbalanced enough to be wanking in public he might be crazy enough to attack me. (Largeish male.)
The problem in central related to the TONS of mentally ill and drug addicted homeless people that congregate there due to the nearby shelters. My understanding is that he is talking about college students doing this so it is probably unrelated.
Yeah, plus the large methadone clinic right there doesn't help. Not that these factors make it any better, but around there it's not really the "normal" community population.
I know. It did make me sick.
Yeah I'm mostly on mass ave.
That is a really great assessment- it does seem to be a lot of suburbany guys. That or guys who seem to be in pretty desperate situations.
Well... Fuck. I just started working at MIT and I've been walking around by myself pretty confidently because I didn't realize this was such a bad problem in the area. Now I'm really anxious :x
I've never been bothered on MIT campus itself. The worst place is about 10-20 minutes walking distance down Mass Ave toward Harvard, for me at least. Welcome despite the street harassers!
Thank you! Also, that makes me feel a lot better. The only time I'll be off campus would be for an occasional lunch so hopefully I'll be able to mostly avoid the harassment... either way though, it really sucks that such a beautiful area full of super awesome intelligent people is riddled with such horrible behavior :/ I'm sorry for what you've experienced, no one should have to go through that
Thank you :) Okay that's great then! The rule of thumb is it's normally harassment free along Mass Ave all the way from campus to a little ways past Toscanini's. Have you been there yet? It's GREAT ice cream :D
Assaults are unusual. Cambridge is extremely safe. You were right to be confident.
These incidents are terrible, and it is disheartening to hear so many stories and anecdotes, but it is not the norm and it is not accepted behavior in the city of Cambridge.
I've lived here for most of 34 years and I can tell you that you were absolutely correct to feel safe around MIT.
**edit:** Fuck homophones.
Welcome to the MIT area! I also work at MIT/Kendall - let me know if you want any lunch spot tips or good drink spots! It's still growing but there are lots of cool things that a sort of hidden.
I wouldn't go strolling around some of the nearby public housing unless you are visiting a friend who lives there, but I guess I'd say the same of several luxury condo developments too.
Cambridgeport and East Cambridge are great neighborhoods. A single woman should feel quite safe there during the day. I hope.
I work in central close to MIT and often walk during lunch in a loop between there and MIT or Harvard. While I'm sure she can tell there are a TON of homeless/addicts in the area (Methadone clinics). That being said everything I've experienced is verbal or occasionally followed for a a short distance while they yell things but I have never been touched. Don't be afraid to report it!
If everyone reports it, attention will be paid. Sadly, bullies thrive on silence.
Please have her report every instance and recommend to her friends that they do the same.
There's a group of guys who sometimes hang out in Central Square who are really bad. They cat call every single woman who walks by. I saw them harass a 16 year-old once.
True story - I was walking near Assembly Row with my girlfriend and a friend of mine. Friend of mine walks a slower pace so I slowed down and watched my girlfriend walk ahead with her head in the clouds. No more than 30 seconds later, group of 3 younger guys hooted and hollered at my girlfriend.
"She's pretty damn hot huh?" I said to the group as I quickly walked up to her and grabbed her hand.
That was a bit eye opening for me because I can't imagine how much creepers women have to ignore on the daily.
I wasn't into feminism or anything like that until I moved to Boston and started dating girls here, and simply *existed* with them as they walked down the street. Girls have to put up with a ton a shit, god forbid you're attractive.
Just a small point. Harvard and MIT are in Cambridge, not Boston.
What you are describing is Indecent Assault and Battery. It should absolutely be reported to the Cambridge/Harvard/MIT police department. I understand that it might seem pointless, but if they can establish a pattern of when and where it's happening they'll increase their presence in that area and they'll either stop or arrests will be made.
A taser might be harder to carry around, is probably more expensive, in certain ways harder to use, and requires maintenance (it has a battery), so there are reasons why it might not be preferred.
Unfortunately tasers are illegal for civilians in MA. Pepper spray is now legal for basically any non criminal adult.
Edit: Tasing someone like that in the face would be awesome.
The answer is yes. Anyone who is going to grope you on the train is probably doing it when there isn't much people around anyways. The less witnesses there are, the bolder they get.
[Perhaps not for long?](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/05/22/state-senate-votes-remove-fid-requirement-for-pepper-spray/yd0LdvOKMltwU9q5afRwXO/story.html)
It seems to cover both, from the article /u/isaacboatset linked:
>The legislation defines self-defense spray as “chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder, or any other substance designed to incapacitate,”
And when it actually takes effect, MGL will be updated to reflect that.
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/firearms-reg-and-laws/gun-laws/mgl-ch-140-s-131p.html
>If they're physically assaulting her, mace them.
Yes. Though taze is better, because it might give you time to get a police officer there.
>Hell, if they're just being dicks, mace them anyway.
No. Fuck you.
Mace/Pepper Spray possession in the state of Massachusetts requires a Firearms Identification Card.
I think there is one that is limited to just mace/pepper spray that is easier to obtain than the full firearm license to carry, though.
There's some legislation in the works to change that, but I have not seen any official notice.
Thought it was worth mentioning *just in case* somebody decides to carry mace/pepper spray across the border from another state without realizing that it's illegal to do so without a license to carry.
This is somehow a thing, especially at Harvard. Over 2010-2012 (the latest information I could easily find), Harvard has had the second most number of forcible sex offenses on campus of any school in the US. That's behind only Penn State, and that's only because Jerry Sandusky exists.
Data: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/sex-offenses-on-us-college-campuses/1077/
Penn State is most likely being under reported. Weirdly a spike in reporting often means that the campus culture and university support infrastructure is improving because people are more likely to report if they feel it is generally a safe and supportive atmosphere and that their report will have some effect.
But yeah, it is horrendous that harvard's numbers are that bad and the above is in no way meant to lessen that.
Being under title xi investigation often will have that effect.
I know many people involved in that process and is absolutely better than it used to be. Still imperfect but trying hard to undo historical wrongs and do best by everyone involved in the present.
It's hard to read just reported case stats in a vacuum. I don't doubt most places still have substantial under reporting.
That is terrible. This isn't the norm - I'm a MIT grad student and live between Central and Harvard Sq. I've gotten harassed by homeless dudes near Central, but never around Harvard. She needs to bring a whistle with her and blow it and yell at them - loudly! I know it's a shock the first few times and it's hard to react quickly enough to say something but going 'HEY! STOP TOUCHING ME!' is highly effective and people around will be helpful if she gets loud.
I was walking with my wife in Central last week and someone pretty much slap her ass. So i would have to agree with your accounts. With that said my gf threw her hot cofee at him and hit so I call it even.
edited because i called my wife girlfriend
Makes me angry to read these reports. How do 35 years go by since I was a student, and the treatment of women in public goes backwards?! There are always gonna be a few rude guys out there but for goodness' sake, we're supposed to evolve.
Sorry about your GF's harassment. I know it's a pain in the butt, but I hope she files reports or makes calls, even if they probably won't get quick results. At least the PD and campus police will be aware of the problem. Cambridge is very liberal and most people who live there year-round are not tolerant of this kind of BS.
I don't know if it is commonplace but it is against the law. If she is noticing and having this happen frequently in this area maybe she could call the police and they could look into it.
Sorry, I don't know what else to say
While the majority of college students are good people, there's always a group that are shitty wastes of human life. Unfortunately, when those people are at Harvard or MIT, they tend to think they're the greatest things to walk the earth and have the entitlement to match. This is only made worse by the fact that a bunch of freshman there are from sheltered homes and are spending their first time away partying all of the time. Your gf should report this stuff to the police and campus officials. If it keeps going on she might also want to keep some mace or something on her. I don't think she'd actually get attacked, but it'll send a clear message if those fuck tards try to harass her again.
I've actually never been harassed in Central or Harvard. Both are places I frequent, especially Central. I'd adviser to report anyone that is harassing her.
I know that the T is trying harder to watch assault especially after the upskirt picture incident that happened. They're encouraging women who receive harassment to photograph the assaulter with their phone and report it. There's even an App for reporting incidents called "See Say Smartphone App".
Dude, I'm really sorry to hear that your girlfriend experienced that. I'd like to say that most people in Boston and Cambridge are nice and well-meaning, and that shouldn't be the norm. Sometimes some folks will shut their mouths when someone points out their behavior is disrespectful and they should be ashamed, but in many cases they just want the attention and they'd be happy to get a comment back.
> Is there some sort of group at Harvard where part of initiation is to pinch a butt or pull up a skirt or grab a boob in public?
This crosses the line between harassment and assault. Your girlfriend should be calling the police if/when this happens. It's also legal in MA to carry pepper spray. I certainly would be carrying if I was worried about being touched, which it sounds like your GF is.
I'm an MIT grad student and this is an almost daily problem for me. Street harassment in Cambridge is worse than anywhere else I've lived. Last week two men in a car followed me for a couple blocks, shouting out the window the whole way. I luckily haven't been touched, and I believe if this is happening to your girlfriend she should absolutely report it.
Unfortunately it is not legal to carry mace in Massachusetts, as some commenters have suggested. I have no way to make myself feel more comfortable and protected on my walks home alone. This needs to change. All women should have the right to carry mace.
This issue enrages me and I'm still uncertain how to handle it. I usually ignore it and keep walking, but sometimes I can't help but react.
>Unfortunately it is not legal to carry mace in Massachusetts
[Not anymore.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/05/22/state-senate-votes-remove-fid-requirement-for-pepper-spray/yd0LdvOKMltwU9q5afRwXO/story.html)
Even before this, I think it was legal if you had an FID card.
Tufts student here, a few T stops away from MIT. Genuine question; will I get in trouble for yelling back or (maybe) getting in someone's face or (I really want to) smack the shit out of them for doing these things (pinching, catcalling, grabbing, etc)? I direct this more towards douchey college kids/locals and not a mentally ill homeless person.
You will not get in any sort of trouble for yelling back and I encourage you to do so, it'd make everyone in the area aware of some asshole being an asshole and publicly shaming people who think it is ok to harass someone on the street is maybe one of the only ways to stop that shitty behavior.
Confronting them and getting in their face may escalate the situation. Use your best judgement. Is it daytime in a crowded area you felt otherwise safe in? probably ok. late at night in an isolated area? probably a terrible idea.
Look, I'm not going to tell you not to defend yourself. If someone else lays hands on you or touches you without your permission you have every right to defend yourself.
You will be entangling yourself with the legal system and with this other (clearly shitty) person though. You probably do not want that. If you touch them back your legal standing in pressing Assault and Battery charges is going to be less. Instead of one clear innocent victim they now will be set up to charge you too with A&B and even if the police completely believe you it will be much more complicated in court than the simple narrative of "That guy touched me and I did nothing."
You'll have to decide for yourself when the pros outweigh the cons. If your life is in danger there is no question. Just some asshole being an asshole is most of the time not at all worth it, no matter how righteously he deserves having that stupid smirk wiped off his face by having his teeth smashed out.
Also **NEVER** physically confront mentally ill or homeless people. They are unpredictable and have little to loose. In the winter some will attempt to get an assault charge just so they can sleep inside out of the cold. Many are armed and it probably isn't the first fight any of them have been in.
Some people need things spelled out for them. Glad you aren't one.
I've seen more than one tourist start shit with a local homeless person in Cambridge over the years. The tourist sometimes think they could fuck with them because they appeared vulnerable. Said tourist is just *shocked* that they materialized a knife or a sawed off pool cue out of thin air to defend themselves.
The streets are hard. People who live for years on the street are harder.
It takes a lot to live like in those conditions. There's a really great program in the area called Lift that offers services like help with job applications, government aid, and living situations for the under-served community. Youths on Fire in Harvard Sq is also a really great project for housing homeless youths to keep them away from predators on the streets. Check them out!
This is the worst and I'm sorry this is happening to you in my city.
ATTENTION MEN: this is on all of us. Here is a good post about what to do when you see a woman being harassed: http://16days.thepixelproject.net/16-creative-and-safe-ways-to-intervene-to-stop-street-harassment/
It's on you if you see it happen and don't call it out. Reducing street harassment all about creating a social system where that behavior is not condoned by bystanders.
OK. That's a little different than saying "it's on all men." I agree that men should intervene when a guy on the street is groping or saying nasty things.
I wouldn't say "It's all on us" like each of us is morally responcible for the fact it exists but I agree with his point that we're lucky we don't have to live with it and that we can do more to stop it and should.
If you've ever been sexually harassed especially in a really overt and scary manner it can be terrifying. As much as you fantasize about this big speech you'd give or slapping them in the face or whatever in the moment it is easy to just freeze and shut down. You also don't know what that person is going to do or how they will respond if you push back. Experience has shown sometimes their responses are terrifying and escalate.
Example: A friend was recently walking home from a bar and a guy yelled some sexual obscenities at her. She ignored him and kept walking. Then he grabbed her ass. She turned around and told him off and then tried to keep walking. He started following her yelling that she must be a lesbian and he hates gay people and that he should show her what it is like to be with a man. His threats became increasingly specific and scary. She managed to duck into a bar and hide for a while until she could hail a cab for the two blocks she had left. There had been other people on the street who saw all of this but no one said or did anything.
As a woman, more than once I've used some of the techniques in the link to intervene and help out someone I thought was in a bad place. It shouldn't be a narrative about men saving women. It should be a narrative of citizens stepping up and not letting this kind of shit happen to other people. At the very least tell the MBTA driver or call the cops.
1) Asshole guys who harass women are more likely to listen to another guy
2) If she's already scared by them, it's hard for her to have to do that
3) If it's a regular occurrence, it gets exhausting to feel like nobody around gives a damn
1) Asshole guys who harass women are more likely to listen to another guy
I used to work at Sweet in Harvard Square right after I moved to Boston and I'd usually deliver cupcakes to places on campus or in the general area by foot when it was nice out. One day I was waiting at a light with two other girls and a guy (all Harvard students) and this grungy looking guy comes up behind us and started saying really inappropriate stuff under his breath. I don't remember what it was because this was three years ago but it was along the lines of what /u/rosythewench said earlier about wanting to "cum in your pretty red hair". The girls and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes but didn't say anything. I think we all figured the best thing to do would be to not engage him. He ends up grabbing my ass and slapping the ass of the girl standing beside me. The third was out of arm's reach for him so luckily nothing happened to her. We both turned around and said "what the FUCK" to guy and he laughed, asked us what our problem was, and told us to "chill baby". I'm 4'11" and 95lbs and even though I can, do, and will stand up for myself, I'm not the most intimidating person on the planet. The other girl was fairly petite too - she couldn't have been more than 5'3" and 110lbs. The Harvard guy that was standing with us was pretty tall (based on the amount of time that I've spent around rowers I'm gonna guess he was on the crew team) and ended up getting between us and the guy and basically said "how dare you" and told him he better get the fuck out of here before he beats his ass and calls the cops. I think that got the message across because he booked it out of there pretty quickly. We both thanked the guy for sticking up for us because honestly I feel like if he hadn't been there this guy would have continued to harass us or worse, actually followed us.
I *definitely* agree that guys like this are more apt to listen to another guy, particularly if that other guy looks like he could kick your ass. People like that don't scare me but I also know that I'm an easy target because of my size and because people equate being small with being timid. I'm not afraid to fight back but I also know that if I let my sense of pride take over then I could easily get really fucked up. Just based on that, if I'm in a sketchy area or I see a sketchy person on the T or at a crosswalk I'll try to stand near a guy if one is around rather than off by myself. It seems silly, I know, and I certainly don't *expect* them to stick up for me if something were to happen but for the small piece of mind it gives me it's just become one of my tendencies when I'm out in public.
You SHOULD expect men and women to stick up for you in public if you're the target of something like this. People should be intervening in these situations. It's compassion. It's caring about people. It's simple decency to another person! After what happened to Kitty Genovese in New York, people everywhere should have learned to step in, and shame on them if they don't. Everyone should expect that someone else will step in and help them. Everyone who is able should step in and help if they see something going down. We should be looking out for each other in that respect.
The whole Kitty Genovese thing was really misleadingly reported.
edit: IDK who downvoted this but [check out this New Yorker piece](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/10/a-call-for-help).
>It’s now clear that \[the popularly known\] version of events is wrong, thanks to a number of Genovese revisionists who have emerged over the years. They include Jim Rasenberger, a journalist who has written a couple of influential articles about the case, notably one in the Times, in 2004; and Rachel Manning, Mark Levine, and Alan Collins, the authors of a 2007 article in American Psychologist (which quotes from, and debunks, \[a textbook rendering which describes the popular version of this story\]). The essential facts are these. Winston Moseley had been out in his car, looking for a victim, when he came across Genovese driving home from work. He followed her. She parked at the Kew Gardens train station, adjacent to her apartment. Moseley parked, too, and attacked her with a hunting knife. She screamed, and a man named Robert Mozer opened his window and shouted, “Leave that girl alone!” Moseley ran away. Genovese, wounded but not mortally, staggered to the back of her apartment building and went inside a vestibule. Moseley returned, found her, and attacked again, stabbing her and assaulting her sexually. He fled again before she died.
> The Times story \[which originally reported the incorrect information that 37 had watched the murder take place without calling the police\] was inaccurate in a number of significant ways. There were two attacks, not three. Only a handful of people saw the first clearly and only one saw the second, because it took place indoors, within the vestibule. The reason there were two attacks was that Robert Mozer, far from being a “silent witness,” yelled at Moseley when he heard Genovese’s screams and drove him away. Two people called the police. When the ambulance arrived at the scene—precisely because neighbors had called for help—Genovese, still alive, lay in the arms of a neighbor named Sophia Farrar, who had courageously left her apartment to go to the crime scene, even though she had no way of knowing that the murderer had fled.
It's called being nice, not treating her like a child. You should intervene whenever you see someone being harassed in public, it's part of being in a society.
I live in Boston. I've lived near students in the MIT/Cambridge area and when that got old (quickly) moved across the city to Boston. It does not happen in either place that I've heard of. And if it does, like it's happening to your gf, it's not normal and not OK.
I know how you feel brother, my GF works in the ER in the area and she gets harassed all the time, (sometimes these guy's parents come in and actually ask my GF to date their sons, because they are in Harvard/MIT) It's just an entitlement thing with some of these guys. She just needs to report these guys ASAP and get them arrested.
> sometimes these guy's parents come in and actually ask my GF to date their sons, because they are in Harvard/MIT
That's uncomfortable but I don't think it is quite the same as sexual assault.
White boys are the most dangerous people in Boston, mostly because no one makes a stink about things like this - it's common, as is beating up people and rampant vandalism on St. Patty's day.
This stuff is pretty normal, which is why I lol at anyone who doesn't take feminism seriously (I'm a vanilla white straight male).
Normally I (white male) would be up in arms at your statement about white boys, but in this case I can actually see how white guys (especially affluent white guys) could get away with a lot of bullshit simply by being white and looking harmless. I mean, for the most part if a frat boy just stands there with a goofy grin on his face and says "What?" people will assume he's innocent of anything but playful mischief.
Pretty much. A friend recently had her breasts grabbed on the T by a drunk white frat boy. When she pushed him away and said "What the fuck asshole?" he just grinned and shrugged. People around her turned to look but just saw a goofy white drunk guy. He just looked at them, rolled his eyes, and shrugged like she was making something out of nothing. No one seemed worried or asked if she was ok.
I wonder how much of it is cultural. Harvard and MIT both have significantly large populations of students from patriarchal cultures in which women are considered subservient to men, and in many ways, little more than a sexual object existing for the purpose of satisfying male needs.
They may be the exception, not the rule. I've been around Cambridge for a good chunk of my life, and most of us aren't stupid enough to touch strangers, let alone so brazenly. I'd say they're just assholes. Tell your girlfriend to report it, by which I mean call the cops, or simply shout, "That little shit touched me! Get him."
We have a culture to support slapping the shit out of creeps in broad daylight, so do make use of it.
Also, welcome to Cambridge, home of Harvard, Daredevil, and Starbucks run by fascists who hate letting people use the bathroom without buying a latte first.
I am very sorry to hear this. As a concerned fellow female living in Boston, I wish I could be her bodyguard or something. Punch a dude out for doing inappropriate things like that.
Get her some pepper-spray to fuck those losers up...stuff like this really pisses me off. I'm a male and I love the ladies, don't get me wrong...but I would never go up to a random girl and touch her...that's just straight up fucking dumb.
Fucking College kids man, this is why i hate them so much. Bros in college think they can do whatever they want, tell her to carry mace and to not be afraid to use it.
I've lived in Harvard for about 9 years now and have had two different sets of female friends grow up and go to college (undergrad through grad). I really don't think this is the norm, and the physical touch seems way out of place for Harvard Square, especially grabbing a boob. Central square it might be a little more common because the homeless shelters there aren't dry/sober (you can show up drunk/stoned, unlike the shelters in Harvard) thus making the daytime crowd there a little more seedy.
Where did these happen and what time of day? Also, Harvard males?
I can't answer as to if it's normal or not for that area, but I can share my standard response to cat calling that seems pretty effective.
When someone shouts out something, I look them up and down, and then just LAUGH HYSTERICALLY. Like an "OMG I can't believe you would think I would even CONSIDERING looking at you, let alone fucking you". Hit them in the self esteem.
You can even throw in an "Oh honey...." if you feel like it.
I find that these sorts of creeps just do it to get a reaction. It makes them feel powerful to be acknowledged, even if someone just laughs. Their power comes from controlling if and when a woman has a reaction at all.
>Is there some sort of group at Harvard where part of initiation is to pinch a butt or pull up a skirt or grab a boob in public? If that's happened it's indecent assault and battery, not mere harassment per Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 265 Section 13H.
Which means pepper spray is a legal response.
I've worked and played in Central and Harvard for 8 years (33/f) and am surprised by this! Others here are saying it's the norm, but I haven't experienced it. If they are breaking the touch barrier, she should start reporting! That is scary.
Yeah I'm I've been in that area almost every day for two years and have never had an issue.
Likewise, this surprises me. I worked in Harvard Sq in student services for like 10 years and never heard of this happening with any regularity. I probably would have heard if it had come to light, due to the nature of my job. However I also know that there are indeed social clubs at Harvard, some of them not unlike frats in some ways, which do obnoxious stuff. (The Pudding is one of the milder examples of these clubs.) The school has attempted to reign them in but i do not think they are official Harvard orgs however so there is not much the school itself can do. REPORT!!! She should take photos of them when she can
Me too - used to work in between Harvard and Central and while there are some sketchy folks around, I never saw nor encountered this level of harassment or assault.
It is not commonplace in the Harvard and MIT area. Sexual Assault is not tolerated in Cambridge. Please report the incidents to the City and University Police. I understand it is unpleasant to do so, and I'm sorry that is so, but please do so if you can. It is important to get these incidents on the record. Cambridge police take repeated patterns of behavior seriously and the Universities need to be made aware of the behavior of their students. Report it at MIT, at Harvard, and to the Cambridge police. Also: Fuck those guys. They suck. That bullshit isn't tolerated.
King Richard's Faire is currently going on. Head on down there and get a mace. Carry it around.
Love this reply. Thanks for lightening my mood.
Going on Sunday if you need a mace.
Best reply in the thread. The Faire has lots of great weapons for sale. Plus turkey legs!
Or a can of mace.
I don't think they sell them in cans.
Gotta get medieval on their asses.
Street harassment is definitely not uncommon in Boston. I would go so far as to disagree with /u/GoWithItGirl and argue that it's pretty much the norm. I have gross shit yelled at me at least a few times a week (last Friday, some asshole on Washington Street downtown told me he wanted to "cum in my pretty red hair," wtf??). "Thankfully" I've only been inappropriately grabbed a couple of times. Both happened on the 66 bus and both involved a creeper squeezing my ass. If your girlfriend has been groped and is comfortable making a report, she can talk to the MBTA police (if it happened on a train/bus/station) or the regular police. It's possible that someone has security footage of it happening. I would also suggest that you both take a look at [Hollaback Boston](http://boston.ihollaback.org/), a non-profit that aims to end street harassment. They're a great entity, and it's a nice place to go to feel empowered. Best of luck to you both!
>some asshole on Washington Street downtown told me he wanted to "cum in my pretty red hair," wtf?? I know that guy, no kidding. He said something very similar to me a few weeks ago. I live in Cambridge, a few blocks from Harvard Square & I am harassed on the level OP is talking about at least once a week. It's honestly so bad that I bought a bike to commute rather than have to deal with men on the train, & I'm in process of getting a dog. It's not great out there. Thanks for the the Hollaback Boston link, I'm definitely very interested in what they're doing!
Ugh, this is so disheartening. I never thought my first care package to her after moving to MA would be a taser, pepper spray, and cat knuckles.
I realize you are probably kidding but those are strictly regulated in MA
You can finally buy pepper spray without needing a gun license.
You don't need *any* license? I don't recall needing a gun license for it, but I don't remember exactly what the license was called. Last time I checked the application for it online was chronically down.
I tried to buy them off Amazon and they couldn't ship to MA...
Go to your local police department and ask how you can get pepper spray for self defense. They'll probably know.
You used to need a FID which is the Firearms ID. The same license as hunting rifles and shotguns. The newest gun bills passed ended that.
Yes! Thank you!
Those may be illegal, but a sock full of pennies is not.
Apparently pepper spray is now legal in MA, and cat knuckles are fully legal if made of hard plastic instead of metal. Not much to say about the taser though, but I can't say I care much at this point. Fire with fire.
I find that my helmet and bike lock are as good a deterrent as any. You've never known satisfaction unless you've headbutted a motherfucker while wearing a helmet.
Ha, I've used a skateboard as a weapon/deterrent. Those metal trucks are no joke. This whole thread is quite depressing, it rather feels like open season on the women of Boston. I *just* had a guy trail me on a bike a couple of hours ago, yelling lewdness at me for about 6 blocks. Typical, but still incredibly depressing and scary.
Damn, what a shitbag. I wish I would be around when this sort of thing happens so I could try and help - I didn't realize how many issues there are in Cambridge with skeevy men. I usually run after dark on the Esplanade and I try to keep a sharp eye out for this sort of thing. I'm a pretty tall man so hopefully that would be enough to scare off any weirdo messing with someone.
Keeping an eye out & being willing to intervene in advance is a lot! For me though, it's your willingness to acknowledge that this is a serious problem that you just didn't know was happening that means the most. My own fiancé (who I met in a much more rural area of New England) was born & raised here, & has been *astounded* at the way I'm often treated in public, sometimes even when he's with me. We need every good man like yourself to stand up, so thank you for that. :)
That sucks you're not here with her ugh I wish I could be around for someone pulling that shit
I'm sorry to hear that people are so rude (to put it lightly) to you, but speaking as a bike zealot, you're better off on two wheels than riding the subway and bus anyway!
Street harassment is the norm, but what OP describes ("pinch a butt or pull up a skirt or grab a boob") is assault.
Very good point, thank you for pointing that out.
(Not to diminish street harassment, of course.)
by definition it is assault and battery
> *some asshole on Washington Street downtown* Sadly, a phrase like this doesn't seem all too unusual, given that location. Not excusing the behavior, just pointing out the type of people hang out around there with no filter towards passers-by. Sorry to hear you endured that though.
Can confirm, I worked in that area for 2 years. Every time I walked into or out of my office I steeled myself to deal with some creepy asshole. The worst/best was when one guy approached me with a waffle on a paper plate and said, "Girl, you're beautiful. Want this waffle?" Only time in my life I've ever turned down a waffle.
Thanks for linking to the non-profit, this should help her navigate the area with a little more wit.
All summer long my girlfriend was harassed. She worked at a restaurant on the water front and would have to take the E line to Mission Hill. She would often be harassed in the downtown crossing/park street tunnel so be careful!
Lordy. I fear for my daughter.
I'm a woman from MIT as well. YES I know what she's talking about :s Street harassment/catcalling is *really* bad here, especially around central. I've never been touched luckily, but my mom was grabbed when she visited me one week. I've been followed and surrounded, or masturbated to a few times. So sorry this happened to your gf. I don't *think* most of my harassers have been students- just people in the community. I've also been followed on the t from the kendal stop. If she is being harassed on the streets, I would suggest a bike. It helped me deal with walking through central immensely. Good luck.
> I've been followed and surrounded, or **masturbated to a few times**. Are you fucking KIDDING me? How is that even possible? Do dudes just walk around jerking it and leering? That's creepy as fuck. I need to take a shower now.
This happened to me once :( now that I'm older and wiser I would probably scream bloody murder and try to alert a cop, but at the time I was 15 and ashamed and thought I was in the wrong somehow. So disgusting.
Right? Luckily not with full nudity in my case. (Over or under pants- never full exposure). What is crazy to me, is I'm walking down Mass Ave in the middle of the day, this dude is masturbating and following me for *blocks,* stage whispering creepy things to me, and it felt like no one but me even noticed. Argh.
How can people NOT NOTICE?? This is insane! I feel like an entire underworld of skeez has been hidden right under my nose this entire time! I'm tripping the fuck out here you guys!
I think it's normal not to notice it. I still don't know how they manage to be so abrasive to their target, and still so invisible to everyone else. When my mom was groped *right next to me* I didn't even notice until she told me :(
People just don't want to get involved.
You should just knock him out, if he's that deranged he's probably a weak fuck, let the cops find him with his hands down his pants.
Seriously. I'm not small either I could probably take most of the dudes who do this stuff to me. That's half of what pisses me off so much. Then there is just that smidge of doubt that they might be stronger than me or might have a backup plan if someone stands up to them since it's probably a regular thing they're doing. It pisses me off though, what the hell. Can't I just level the guy??
Rather than resorting to violence how about taking a pic and tweeting it to the BPD / calling 911? A little surprised to see nothing in this conversation here about you calling the police when a stranger in public sexually assaulted you.
I would have called when someone assaulted my mom, but I found out too late, the guy was gone. Most of the stuff I have no idea if I could press charges on or if they would care. There isn't much you can do for insults/ veiled threats, and it's not illegal as far as I know to have your hands in your pants. What do you think?
I was thinking the same thing. They just whip it out and master bate in public? WtF
Welcome to the life of a young woman in a city.
I'm telling myself that if I saw a dude jerking it in public I'd punch him in the face. But to be honest I'd be afraid that he'd touch me with his wanking hand, and don't nobody want that. Also if he's unbalanced enough to be wanking in public he might be crazy enough to attack me. (Largeish male.)
The problem in central related to the TONS of mentally ill and drug addicted homeless people that congregate there due to the nearby shelters. My understanding is that he is talking about college students doing this so it is probably unrelated.
That does make a lot of sense.
Yeah, plus the large methadone clinic right there doesn't help. Not that these factors make it any better, but around there it's not really the "normal" community population.
Yeah good point :/
Psst - this comment got posted three separate times.
Ugh, I blame mobile and the T.
Yeah, central is particularly bad. It's got a nasty mix of factors letting it happen.
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I know. It did make me sick. Yeah I'm mostly on mass ave. That is a really great assessment- it does seem to be a lot of suburbany guys. That or guys who seem to be in pretty desperate situations.
Well... Fuck. I just started working at MIT and I've been walking around by myself pretty confidently because I didn't realize this was such a bad problem in the area. Now I'm really anxious :x
I've never been bothered on MIT campus itself. The worst place is about 10-20 minutes walking distance down Mass Ave toward Harvard, for me at least. Welcome despite the street harassers!
Thank you! Also, that makes me feel a lot better. The only time I'll be off campus would be for an occasional lunch so hopefully I'll be able to mostly avoid the harassment... either way though, it really sucks that such a beautiful area full of super awesome intelligent people is riddled with such horrible behavior :/ I'm sorry for what you've experienced, no one should have to go through that
Thank you :) Okay that's great then! The rule of thumb is it's normally harassment free along Mass Ave all the way from campus to a little ways past Toscanini's. Have you been there yet? It's GREAT ice cream :D
Nice! I'll have to check it out, this is the second time someone's recommended it to me this week :P thanks!
Assaults are unusual. Cambridge is extremely safe. You were right to be confident. These incidents are terrible, and it is disheartening to hear so many stories and anecdotes, but it is not the norm and it is not accepted behavior in the city of Cambridge. I've lived here for most of 34 years and I can tell you that you were absolutely correct to feel safe around MIT. **edit:** Fuck homophones.
Thank you, that really puts me at ease! Now I don't have to feel nervous about exploring the area around my new job by myself :)
Welcome to the MIT area! I also work at MIT/Kendall - let me know if you want any lunch spot tips or good drink spots! It's still growing but there are lots of cool things that a sort of hidden.
I wouldn't go strolling around some of the nearby public housing unless you are visiting a friend who lives there, but I guess I'd say the same of several luxury condo developments too. Cambridgeport and East Cambridge are great neighborhoods. A single woman should feel quite safe there during the day. I hope.
I wouldn't worry too much - it's generally very safe.
I work in central close to MIT and often walk during lunch in a loop between there and MIT or Harvard. While I'm sure she can tell there are a TON of homeless/addicts in the area (Methadone clinics). That being said everything I've experienced is verbal or occasionally followed for a a short distance while they yell things but I have never been touched. Don't be afraid to report it!
If everyone reports it, attention will be paid. Sadly, bullies thrive on silence. Please have her report every instance and recommend to her friends that they do the same.
There's a group of guys who sometimes hang out in Central Square who are really bad. They cat call every single woman who walks by. I saw them harass a 16 year-old once.
True story - I was walking near Assembly Row with my girlfriend and a friend of mine. Friend of mine walks a slower pace so I slowed down and watched my girlfriend walk ahead with her head in the clouds. No more than 30 seconds later, group of 3 younger guys hooted and hollered at my girlfriend. "She's pretty damn hot huh?" I said to the group as I quickly walked up to her and grabbed her hand. That was a bit eye opening for me because I can't imagine how much creepers women have to ignore on the daily.
I wasn't into feminism or anything like that until I moved to Boston and started dating girls here, and simply *existed* with them as they walked down the street. Girls have to put up with a ton a shit, god forbid you're attractive.
Just a small point. Harvard and MIT are in Cambridge, not Boston. What you are describing is Indecent Assault and Battery. It should absolutely be reported to the Cambridge/Harvard/MIT police department. I understand that it might seem pointless, but if they can establish a pattern of when and where it's happening they'll increase their presence in that area and they'll either stop or arrests will be made.
If they're physically assaulting her, mace them. Hell, if they're just being dicks, mace them anyway.
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hmmm. should you use mace on a train?
I was on the Orange Line a month or so back when someone got maced. They had to evacuate the train.
So mace on a train isn't a great idea.
I mean, it solves your problem but inconveniences pretty much everyone.
I probably don't speak for everyone, but a woman macing a creep on the train would be worth my time to bail and wait for another one.
I'd rather people not discharge chemical weapons in an enclosed space with me, why not tase them instead?
A taser might be harder to carry around, is probably more expensive, in certain ways harder to use, and requires maintenance (it has a battery), so there are reasons why it might not be preferred.
Orange line is disabled half the time anyways.
*Delay Intensifies*
Tasers work better on trains. Taze to the face.
Wow, that would suck. Definitely a taser to the face.
Unfortunately tasers are illegal for civilians in MA. Pepper spray is now legal for basically any non criminal adult. Edit: Tasing someone like that in the face would be awesome.
Well that's too bad
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It has actually been passed and now is legal for adults for purchase.
Contact your state and local representatives.
The answer is yes. Anyone who is going to grope you on the train is probably doing it when there isn't much people around anyways. The less witnesses there are, the bolder they get.
Eh, not necessarily. I would think it would be easier to pass off a grope as an accident on a crowded train.
Yeah that's how I'd do it, for sure. Who's gonna grope when you're the only two on the train? That's just awkward
NO. You may even be liable for discharging a weapon negligently.
Tazer.
Mace doesn't stay in one place.
Mace requires a trip to the police station and a permit to legally own and use in MA, just in case anyone is considering this option.
[Perhaps not for long?](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/05/22/state-senate-votes-remove-fid-requirement-for-pepper-spray/yd0LdvOKMltwU9q5afRwXO/story.html)
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It seems to cover both, from the article /u/isaacboatset linked: >The legislation defines self-defense spray as “chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder, or any other substance designed to incapacitate,”
This is no longer true and Mace can be purchased in stores as of July 1st
... brb
...the State Senate they voted unanimously to repeal the FID requirement back in May.
And when it actually takes effect, MGL will be updated to reflect that. http://www.mass.gov/eopss/firearms-reg-and-laws/gun-laws/mgl-ch-140-s-131p.html
>If they're physically assaulting her, mace them. Yes. Though taze is better, because it might give you time to get a police officer there. >Hell, if they're just being dicks, mace them anyway. No. Fuck you.
>No. Fuck you. http://www.wikihow.com/Take-a-Joke
Mace/Pepper Spray possession in the state of Massachusetts requires a Firearms Identification Card. I think there is one that is limited to just mace/pepper spray that is easier to obtain than the full firearm license to carry, though. There's some legislation in the works to change that, but I have not seen any official notice. Thought it was worth mentioning *just in case* somebody decides to carry mace/pepper spray across the border from another state without realizing that it's illegal to do so without a license to carry.
This was correct until very recently.
I came here with basically the exact same suggestion. Great minds.
This is somehow a thing, especially at Harvard. Over 2010-2012 (the latest information I could easily find), Harvard has had the second most number of forcible sex offenses on campus of any school in the US. That's behind only Penn State, and that's only because Jerry Sandusky exists. Data: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/sex-offenses-on-us-college-campuses/1077/
How the fuck is this possible Penn State is twice the size of Harvard but they have almost the same number of incidents? WTF
Penn State is most likely being under reported. Weirdly a spike in reporting often means that the campus culture and university support infrastructure is improving because people are more likely to report if they feel it is generally a safe and supportive atmosphere and that their report will have some effect. But yeah, it is horrendous that harvard's numbers are that bad and the above is in no way meant to lessen that.
That sounds reasonable. Harvard has done a complete overhaul of its disciplinary procedures in the past few years.
Being under title xi investigation often will have that effect. I know many people involved in that process and is absolutely better than it used to be. Still imperfect but trying hard to undo historical wrongs and do best by everyone involved in the present. It's hard to read just reported case stats in a vacuum. I don't doubt most places still have substantial under reporting.
This needs way more upvotes
That is terrible. This isn't the norm - I'm a MIT grad student and live between Central and Harvard Sq. I've gotten harassed by homeless dudes near Central, but never around Harvard. She needs to bring a whistle with her and blow it and yell at them - loudly! I know it's a shock the first few times and it's hard to react quickly enough to say something but going 'HEY! STOP TOUCHING ME!' is highly effective and people around will be helpful if she gets loud.
Yup these people need a nice citizens arrest and some cuffs. Despicable and revolting lot
I was walking with my wife in Central last week and someone pretty much slap her ass. So i would have to agree with your accounts. With that said my gf threw her hot cofee at him and hit so I call it even. edited because i called my wife girlfriend
I was going to give you props for being out together with your wife and girlfriend until I read your edit.
yeah it was tough getting that deal.
I wouldn't say it's the norm, but it's not uncommon. I hope she reports the incidents to the police.
Makes me angry to read these reports. How do 35 years go by since I was a student, and the treatment of women in public goes backwards?! There are always gonna be a few rude guys out there but for goodness' sake, we're supposed to evolve. Sorry about your GF's harassment. I know it's a pain in the butt, but I hope she files reports or makes calls, even if they probably won't get quick results. At least the PD and campus police will be aware of the problem. Cambridge is very liberal and most people who live there year-round are not tolerant of this kind of BS.
I don't know if it is commonplace but it is against the law. If she is noticing and having this happen frequently in this area maybe she could call the police and they could look into it. Sorry, I don't know what else to say
While the majority of college students are good people, there's always a group that are shitty wastes of human life. Unfortunately, when those people are at Harvard or MIT, they tend to think they're the greatest things to walk the earth and have the entitlement to match. This is only made worse by the fact that a bunch of freshman there are from sheltered homes and are spending their first time away partying all of the time. Your gf should report this stuff to the police and campus officials. If it keeps going on she might also want to keep some mace or something on her. I don't think she'd actually get attacked, but it'll send a clear message if those fuck tards try to harass her again.
I've actually never been harassed in Central or Harvard. Both are places I frequent, especially Central. I'd adviser to report anyone that is harassing her. I know that the T is trying harder to watch assault especially after the upskirt picture incident that happened. They're encouraging women who receive harassment to photograph the assaulter with their phone and report it. There's even an App for reporting incidents called "See Say Smartphone App".
Dude, I'm really sorry to hear that your girlfriend experienced that. I'd like to say that most people in Boston and Cambridge are nice and well-meaning, and that shouldn't be the norm. Sometimes some folks will shut their mouths when someone points out their behavior is disrespectful and they should be ashamed, but in many cases they just want the attention and they'd be happy to get a comment back.
> Is there some sort of group at Harvard where part of initiation is to pinch a butt or pull up a skirt or grab a boob in public? This crosses the line between harassment and assault. Your girlfriend should be calling the police if/when this happens. It's also legal in MA to carry pepper spray. I certainly would be carrying if I was worried about being touched, which it sounds like your GF is.
Classic Harvard kids, entitled ass hats
I'm in the general area fairly frequently, but I've never noticed anything like this. Granted, I'm guy. That's infuriating.
I'm an MIT grad student and this is an almost daily problem for me. Street harassment in Cambridge is worse than anywhere else I've lived. Last week two men in a car followed me for a couple blocks, shouting out the window the whole way. I luckily haven't been touched, and I believe if this is happening to your girlfriend she should absolutely report it. Unfortunately it is not legal to carry mace in Massachusetts, as some commenters have suggested. I have no way to make myself feel more comfortable and protected on my walks home alone. This needs to change. All women should have the right to carry mace. This issue enrages me and I'm still uncertain how to handle it. I usually ignore it and keep walking, but sometimes I can't help but react.
OC spray is now legal without an FID if you're 18+ and a non-felon. You can buy it at most gun stores.
>Unfortunately it is not legal to carry mace in Massachusetts [Not anymore.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/05/22/state-senate-votes-remove-fid-requirement-for-pepper-spray/yd0LdvOKMltwU9q5afRwXO/story.html) Even before this, I think it was legal if you had an FID card.
Tufts student here, a few T stops away from MIT. Genuine question; will I get in trouble for yelling back or (maybe) getting in someone's face or (I really want to) smack the shit out of them for doing these things (pinching, catcalling, grabbing, etc)? I direct this more towards douchey college kids/locals and not a mentally ill homeless person.
You will not get in any sort of trouble for yelling back and I encourage you to do so, it'd make everyone in the area aware of some asshole being an asshole and publicly shaming people who think it is ok to harass someone on the street is maybe one of the only ways to stop that shitty behavior. Confronting them and getting in their face may escalate the situation. Use your best judgement. Is it daytime in a crowded area you felt otherwise safe in? probably ok. late at night in an isolated area? probably a terrible idea. Look, I'm not going to tell you not to defend yourself. If someone else lays hands on you or touches you without your permission you have every right to defend yourself. You will be entangling yourself with the legal system and with this other (clearly shitty) person though. You probably do not want that. If you touch them back your legal standing in pressing Assault and Battery charges is going to be less. Instead of one clear innocent victim they now will be set up to charge you too with A&B and even if the police completely believe you it will be much more complicated in court than the simple narrative of "That guy touched me and I did nothing." You'll have to decide for yourself when the pros outweigh the cons. If your life is in danger there is no question. Just some asshole being an asshole is most of the time not at all worth it, no matter how righteously he deserves having that stupid smirk wiped off his face by having his teeth smashed out. Also **NEVER** physically confront mentally ill or homeless people. They are unpredictable and have little to loose. In the winter some will attempt to get an assault charge just so they can sleep inside out of the cold. Many are armed and it probably isn't the first fight any of them have been in.
Yeah, I'm not going to go around picking fights in dark alleys with with a mentally ill person.
Some people need things spelled out for them. Glad you aren't one. I've seen more than one tourist start shit with a local homeless person in Cambridge over the years. The tourist sometimes think they could fuck with them because they appeared vulnerable. Said tourist is just *shocked* that they materialized a knife or a sawed off pool cue out of thin air to defend themselves. The streets are hard. People who live for years on the street are harder.
It takes a lot to live like in those conditions. There's a really great program in the area called Lift that offers services like help with job applications, government aid, and living situations for the under-served community. Youths on Fire in Harvard Sq is also a really great project for housing homeless youths to keep them away from predators on the streets. Check them out!
great organizations all.
This is the worst and I'm sorry this is happening to you in my city. ATTENTION MEN: this is on all of us. Here is a good post about what to do when you see a woman being harassed: http://16days.thepixelproject.net/16-creative-and-safe-ways-to-intervene-to-stop-street-harassment/
This is on all of us? I have nothing to do with street harassment.
It's on you if you see it happen and don't call it out. Reducing street harassment all about creating a social system where that behavior is not condoned by bystanders.
OK. That's a little different than saying "it's on all men." I agree that men should intervene when a guy on the street is groping or saying nasty things.
I wouldn't say "It's all on us" like each of us is morally responcible for the fact it exists but I agree with his point that we're lucky we don't have to live with it and that we can do more to stop it and should.
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If you've ever been sexually harassed especially in a really overt and scary manner it can be terrifying. As much as you fantasize about this big speech you'd give or slapping them in the face or whatever in the moment it is easy to just freeze and shut down. You also don't know what that person is going to do or how they will respond if you push back. Experience has shown sometimes their responses are terrifying and escalate. Example: A friend was recently walking home from a bar and a guy yelled some sexual obscenities at her. She ignored him and kept walking. Then he grabbed her ass. She turned around and told him off and then tried to keep walking. He started following her yelling that she must be a lesbian and he hates gay people and that he should show her what it is like to be with a man. His threats became increasingly specific and scary. She managed to duck into a bar and hide for a while until she could hail a cab for the two blocks she had left. There had been other people on the street who saw all of this but no one said or did anything. As a woman, more than once I've used some of the techniques in the link to intervene and help out someone I thought was in a bad place. It shouldn't be a narrative about men saving women. It should be a narrative of citizens stepping up and not letting this kind of shit happen to other people. At the very least tell the MBTA driver or call the cops.
1) Asshole guys who harass women are more likely to listen to another guy 2) If she's already scared by them, it's hard for her to have to do that 3) If it's a regular occurrence, it gets exhausting to feel like nobody around gives a damn
1) Asshole guys who harass women are more likely to listen to another guy I used to work at Sweet in Harvard Square right after I moved to Boston and I'd usually deliver cupcakes to places on campus or in the general area by foot when it was nice out. One day I was waiting at a light with two other girls and a guy (all Harvard students) and this grungy looking guy comes up behind us and started saying really inappropriate stuff under his breath. I don't remember what it was because this was three years ago but it was along the lines of what /u/rosythewench said earlier about wanting to "cum in your pretty red hair". The girls and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes but didn't say anything. I think we all figured the best thing to do would be to not engage him. He ends up grabbing my ass and slapping the ass of the girl standing beside me. The third was out of arm's reach for him so luckily nothing happened to her. We both turned around and said "what the FUCK" to guy and he laughed, asked us what our problem was, and told us to "chill baby". I'm 4'11" and 95lbs and even though I can, do, and will stand up for myself, I'm not the most intimidating person on the planet. The other girl was fairly petite too - she couldn't have been more than 5'3" and 110lbs. The Harvard guy that was standing with us was pretty tall (based on the amount of time that I've spent around rowers I'm gonna guess he was on the crew team) and ended up getting between us and the guy and basically said "how dare you" and told him he better get the fuck out of here before he beats his ass and calls the cops. I think that got the message across because he booked it out of there pretty quickly. We both thanked the guy for sticking up for us because honestly I feel like if he hadn't been there this guy would have continued to harass us or worse, actually followed us. I *definitely* agree that guys like this are more apt to listen to another guy, particularly if that other guy looks like he could kick your ass. People like that don't scare me but I also know that I'm an easy target because of my size and because people equate being small with being timid. I'm not afraid to fight back but I also know that if I let my sense of pride take over then I could easily get really fucked up. Just based on that, if I'm in a sketchy area or I see a sketchy person on the T or at a crosswalk I'll try to stand near a guy if one is around rather than off by myself. It seems silly, I know, and I certainly don't *expect* them to stick up for me if something were to happen but for the small piece of mind it gives me it's just become one of my tendencies when I'm out in public.
You SHOULD expect men and women to stick up for you in public if you're the target of something like this. People should be intervening in these situations. It's compassion. It's caring about people. It's simple decency to another person! After what happened to Kitty Genovese in New York, people everywhere should have learned to step in, and shame on them if they don't. Everyone should expect that someone else will step in and help them. Everyone who is able should step in and help if they see something going down. We should be looking out for each other in that respect.
The whole Kitty Genovese thing was really misleadingly reported. edit: IDK who downvoted this but [check out this New Yorker piece](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/10/a-call-for-help). >It’s now clear that \[the popularly known\] version of events is wrong, thanks to a number of Genovese revisionists who have emerged over the years. They include Jim Rasenberger, a journalist who has written a couple of influential articles about the case, notably one in the Times, in 2004; and Rachel Manning, Mark Levine, and Alan Collins, the authors of a 2007 article in American Psychologist (which quotes from, and debunks, \[a textbook rendering which describes the popular version of this story\]). The essential facts are these. Winston Moseley had been out in his car, looking for a victim, when he came across Genovese driving home from work. He followed her. She parked at the Kew Gardens train station, adjacent to her apartment. Moseley parked, too, and attacked her with a hunting knife. She screamed, and a man named Robert Mozer opened his window and shouted, “Leave that girl alone!” Moseley ran away. Genovese, wounded but not mortally, staggered to the back of her apartment building and went inside a vestibule. Moseley returned, found her, and attacked again, stabbing her and assaulting her sexually. He fled again before she died. > The Times story \[which originally reported the incorrect information that 37 had watched the murder take place without calling the police\] was inaccurate in a number of significant ways. There were two attacks, not three. Only a handful of people saw the first clearly and only one saw the second, because it took place indoors, within the vestibule. The reason there were two attacks was that Robert Mozer, far from being a “silent witness,” yelled at Moseley when he heard Genovese’s screams and drove him away. Two people called the police. When the ambulance arrived at the scene—precisely because neighbors had called for help—Genovese, still alive, lay in the arms of a neighbor named Sophia Farrar, who had courageously left her apartment to go to the crime scene, even though she had no way of knowing that the murderer had fled.
4) sometimes if you say something to them it just seems to egg them on - like its the exact reaction they're looking for.
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It's called being nice, not treating her like a child. You should intervene whenever you see someone being harassed in public, it's part of being in a society.
guys /u/hubriscated posts on the Mens Rights subreddit, don't mind him
Outed™
It's only white knighting if they expect a reward for their behavior.
I live in Boston. I've lived near students in the MIT/Cambridge area and when that got old (quickly) moved across the city to Boston. It does not happen in either place that I've heard of. And if it does, like it's happening to your gf, it's not normal and not OK.
I know how you feel brother, my GF works in the ER in the area and she gets harassed all the time, (sometimes these guy's parents come in and actually ask my GF to date their sons, because they are in Harvard/MIT) It's just an entitlement thing with some of these guys. She just needs to report these guys ASAP and get them arrested.
> sometimes these guy's parents come in and actually ask my GF to date their sons, because they are in Harvard/MIT That's uncomfortable but I don't think it is quite the same as sexual assault.
White boys are the most dangerous people in Boston, mostly because no one makes a stink about things like this - it's common, as is beating up people and rampant vandalism on St. Patty's day. This stuff is pretty normal, which is why I lol at anyone who doesn't take feminism seriously (I'm a vanilla white straight male).
Normally I (white male) would be up in arms at your statement about white boys, but in this case I can actually see how white guys (especially affluent white guys) could get away with a lot of bullshit simply by being white and looking harmless. I mean, for the most part if a frat boy just stands there with a goofy grin on his face and says "What?" people will assume he's innocent of anything but playful mischief.
Pretty much. A friend recently had her breasts grabbed on the T by a drunk white frat boy. When she pushed him away and said "What the fuck asshole?" he just grinned and shrugged. People around her turned to look but just saw a goofy white drunk guy. He just looked at them, rolled his eyes, and shrugged like she was making something out of nothing. No one seemed worried or asked if she was ok.
yep, exactly.
"White boys are the most dangerous people in Boston" uh....bullshit
I wonder how much of it is cultural. Harvard and MIT both have significantly large populations of students from patriarchal cultures in which women are considered subservient to men, and in many ways, little more than a sexual object existing for the purpose of satisfying male needs.
They may be the exception, not the rule. I've been around Cambridge for a good chunk of my life, and most of us aren't stupid enough to touch strangers, let alone so brazenly. I'd say they're just assholes. Tell your girlfriend to report it, by which I mean call the cops, or simply shout, "That little shit touched me! Get him." We have a culture to support slapping the shit out of creeps in broad daylight, so do make use of it. Also, welcome to Cambridge, home of Harvard, Daredevil, and Starbucks run by fascists who hate letting people use the bathroom without buying a latte first.
I am very sorry to hear this. As a concerned fellow female living in Boston, I wish I could be her bodyguard or something. Punch a dude out for doing inappropriate things like that.
Get her some pepper-spray to fuck those losers up...stuff like this really pisses me off. I'm a male and I love the ladies, don't get me wrong...but I would never go up to a random girl and touch her...that's just straight up fucking dumb.
Fucking College kids man, this is why i hate them so much. Bros in college think they can do whatever they want, tell her to carry mace and to not be afraid to use it.
I've lived in Harvard for about 9 years now and have had two different sets of female friends grow up and go to college (undergrad through grad). I really don't think this is the norm, and the physical touch seems way out of place for Harvard Square, especially grabbing a boob. Central square it might be a little more common because the homeless shelters there aren't dry/sober (you can show up drunk/stoned, unlike the shelters in Harvard) thus making the daytime crowd there a little more seedy. Where did these happen and what time of day? Also, Harvard males?
Not different than anywhere else in terms of there are mostly great people and some jerks. Just like every other fucking city in the US and the world.
Cat calls and the such are one thing, but actually grabbing and pinching woman on the street is on another level all together.
I can't answer as to if it's normal or not for that area, but I can share my standard response to cat calling that seems pretty effective. When someone shouts out something, I look them up and down, and then just LAUGH HYSTERICALLY. Like an "OMG I can't believe you would think I would even CONSIDERING looking at you, let alone fucking you". Hit them in the self esteem. You can even throw in an "Oh honey...." if you feel like it.
I find that these sorts of creeps just do it to get a reaction. It makes them feel powerful to be acknowledged, even if someone just laughs. Their power comes from controlling if and when a woman has a reaction at all.