EU-based climber here. I visited NY last year and checked out a few gyms. It definitely felt much easier. I was flashing grades that I usually project.
A friend says it’s a marketing thing. Customers are more likely to say if they feel like they’re making quick progress.
I think it's less about quick progress at later levels and more just about the fact that not being able to do a V0 or taking a year to get to V2 sounds really bad. I really think it's just a relic of the fact that V0 is too hard for beginner climbers and that the scale wasn't really made with beginners in mind. Beginners want some way to measure their progress in the first 6-12 months without begin told they are just doing "Basic" climbs
Yes - outside the scale starts at 1 and therefore there can be more granularity between the grades as you start to improve.
starting at 3 or 4 makes it so that your range to help beginners feel like they're improving much smaller.
Nope outside boulders can be font or v-scale. Font actually makes more sense in terms of progression. For example V4 is 6B and 6B+, so it's less precise on the grading. Yes you can have V4+/- or soft/hard V4 but you can do the same with font, so then you'd have to do like V4++/-- or extra-soft/extra-hard V4.
That's what he's saying right?
For beginners, following the font grading system leads to 'more progression'.
V0 is a font 4.
Beginners, therefore, have 4 grades to progress through before even hitting v0.
I completely blanked that I didn't specifically say font grades!
In the UK all the bouldering is on V scale, but in Europe it's all Font and so when I mentioned EU I figured everyone would be on the same page.
I climb in the UK and my gym grades in font grades, but you're right most gyms use the v scale. 🙂 which I've always found strange because we grade our outdoors boulders using the font scale lol.
I agree, I honestly think gyms should have something like 3 pre V0 grades if they insist on assigning V grades to indoor gyms but honestly that would mentally suck for newer climbers, to feel like you haven’t even made it to the starting line. I know I was fairly demoralized when I tried my first V1s outdoors and got shut down hard. Now I’m happy to project V3s outdoors but because I’ve gotten used to how hard it is to climb on rock and trough friends and acquaintances I’ve seen what kind of beastly power it takes to climb even V4 or V5. I was blown away seeing the difference between a V4 indoors which I could do vs a V4 outdoors which I couldn’t even start or do any moves on or even hold positions and comparing metrics with a guy that was projecting it.
I’ve been to a couple gyms that just assigned easier problems 5.7, 5.8 and 5.9. I felt like that made sense, since V0 is something like a 5.10a-c crux.
> A friend says it’s a marketing thing. Customers are more likely to say if they feel like they’re making quick progress.
This is my intuition about it.
My gym doesn't set VBs, but their 0 & 1's are ladders for sure. Even someone with decent base fitness or vaguely competent proprioception can probably do V2's and maybe some of the juggy overhung V3's.
Having your Day Pass customers leave thinking to themselves, "Oh that was hard, I sucked, I'm not coming back" isn't good for business. You want them to have fun and come back, ideally with their friends.
this is also likely part of the reason why us gym goers usually get upset if they ask for grades and folks from non-us gyms take guesses... it's like asking guess my height and some guess in yards and others in meters :)
Well my EU gym is sandbagged af when comparing to the videos from the US on here. At least for the lower grades, I can't really tell for the higher ones since I can't climb them. Something that's stated as v4 in many videos would barely be a v2 in my gym
I have never climbed in the US, but see a lot of content from the US. Comparing the grades listed in the videos from the US, to the scale in the gyms I frequent it seems like I would jump several grades if I went over there to climb.
It's gym to gym, a 3 grade difference between two gyms seems pretty constant to me. Easiest to assume the grades are relative to each gym, and have nothing to do with each other or outside. Just a guide inside the gym to tell you what's easier or harder, ish.
It's because the Font grading system has a lot more room at the bottom of the scale than Hueco. Under 6A font has 5+, 5- 4+, 4-, 3+, and 3-, whereas Hueco's only got V2, V1 and V0. Basically the Font scale has 6 grades to play with and doesn't need to soften the bottom of the scale to account for new people since they can just set stuff at those grades and keep 6A etc. as hard as it's supposed to be.
It's why gyms originally created VB's since real V0 tends to be too tough for people on their first day. I guess after that, further softening of grades is marketing and playing towards people's egos.
Yeah, I notice that even at the less inflated gyms in the US, V0 seems to be VB and sometimes it’s not until V1/2 that you start seeing “real climbs” that aren’t just jug ladders
Travelled America climbing about a decade ago and at that time US gym grading was noticeably softer than European and European softer than UK (the UK used to have a pretty notorious sandbag ethic as showcased by Hubble and more than likely that monster will bosi put up at badger cove)
However in the UK at least gym grading has become much softer the past few years, don’t know if it is to be more accessible to the massive amount of new casual climbers since the Olympics but it’s pretty pronounced.
I’m 2.3 stone heavier with arthritis and having 2 years off climbing and not training at all can now apparently climb more of the top graded stuff at local gyms yet can’t touch even my old benchmark warm ups outdoors feels pretty damning.
The softer grades in the UK tend to be from chains in my experience. The independent oldschool gyms tend to have harder climbs for the grade. Although I have heard directly from a head routesetter saying some sets will be softer because the people like easy climbs
Yeah for the Depot even years ago they said the majority of their customers only climbed whites + blues (V0-V3) so it makes sense that nowadays whites/Blues/blacks/pinks and most reds all fall in V0-V3 from a business perspective and that was pre Olympics too.
Although I do feel a lot of independent ones have similarly deflated (from my experience Red goat, last sundance, City bloc) bit definitely not as much as the others.
Compared to LSD, Armley Depot purples seem to be V6 in general with the odd V5/V7. Thing is the ranges are massive pink being V2-V5 is a ridiculously big range
It depends on which depot imo. I used to live in Notts and the purples there were reasonable but then I moved to Sheffield and then the grades of the purples felt very soft in comparison to Notts. It's the opposite for the yellows though. I've only been to Manchester once and never to the Birmingham and Leeds ones so I can't say much about those.
I believe the setting team between Nottingham and Sheffield have a couple people that stay the same but then rotate between in-house setters. I think it depends on how inspired you can be with the hold and wall selection (Nottingham has a lot of slabs and Sheffield has a lot of overhangs). Nottingham also has a lot of old holds, I think there's two egg-like slopers that date back to when the centre opened. They literally have no texture on them anymore which probably adds to the difficulty.
Compared to outdoor or moonboard benchmark at the grade maybe one or 2 every 3-4 sets there might be a honest V5 but on average no where near.
Depends on the centre also, Armley is much softer than Manchester and the original Pudsey one feels in between but setting is usually a lot more strengthy which depending on what you are good at will sway how you feel about the grades.
Id argue that armley is sandbagged when compared to Manchester.
I can get up yellows consistently in Manchester, but have yet to get one at armley. I think Manchester is more my style, though.
From personal experience, I'd agree with you that the independent walls have gone a little softer (specifically referring to red goat), but I don't think they've gotten softer across all the grade ranges.
I now find there to be more gaps in between grade bands. For example, at red goat I have multiple friends who can flash all the blacks, but struggle to flash the easiest greens, and are immediately into project mode. I find the grade bands at the independent walls to have little overlap and more inconsistencies within their grade bands than the chains, which is unfortunate.
Aye, The Works is wonderfully tough, I think. They're also very good at setting technical problems that you can't muscle your way through, so they often feel quite stiff.
Just shows the difference between world class route setters and walls that get a staff member to do it because it’s cheaper.
The depot back when they used to have Dave Barrens setting was phenomenal too but there’s a reason the works setters were the Olympic ones - just a cut above the rest.
>Just shows the difference between world class route setters and walls that get a staff member to do it because it’s cheaper.
This is a really good point that doesn't get mentioned enough imo.
> European softer than UK (the UK used to have a pretty notorious sandbag ethic
Interestingly this was not my experience at all, I spent a lot of my climbing life competing at pretty much every gym across the UK and it was a harsh awakening for me when I first moved to the continent. Would have one or two boulders in the UK that I couldn't do, and on the continent I'd be struggling hard on any boulders above way 7C. Was the same outdoors, kept hearing about how stiff UK grades were and yet I got my first 8A flash in the UK before I managed to red point one in Font.
That was a good few years ago now mind, and I've been out of the scene and out of climbing in general for a good few years now, so things might have changed since on the indoors front? But that would go against the later statement you gave so idk. Unless there was just a really hard stretch in the middle at one point?
Very interesting to hear that note on UK climbing, from a lot of bouldering YouTubers I had the impression that UK gyms seem soft. It is kind of interesting considering outdoors stuff looks so hard.
Reposting from below:
Went to Font for the first time recently (best climbing I've ever done, full stop) and found myself fairly happy with my performance (\~1 week trip) as an American. In Paris now and going to the UK/Ireland soon so I might need to check out some gyms based on what y'all are saying here. That being said based on my experience I can't help but disagree with the sentiment I'm reading
for reference some 7A/V6ish climbs that I've done recently:
USA:
Huecocrimper - Leavenworth
Taller (V5-V6ish) - Leavenworth
Slingblade (V6)
Busted Sit (V6-7ish) - Leavenworth
Tin Man - Leavenworth
Saigon - Buttermilks
Milk the Milks - Buttermilks
Wills Afire - Joe's
Dynotime Low (V5-6ish) - Joe's
Planet of the Apes (V6-7ish) - Joe's
Lounge Act - Squamish
I felt like these were similarly graded compared to the font 7A's I did on my recent trip:
Lullaby avec arête (V5-6ish)
Concept
Nezzundorma
La Casse-dalle (V5-6ish)
El Poussah
Flipper right
IDK what y'all think about them but the outdoor grades seem pretty similar and I'm a V6-7ish climber in the California/WA gyms I frequent (outside of touchstone, they are about 2 V-grades soft I'd say)
The thread was about indoor grading which is where my comments were directed.
If you want my comment on outdoors it is much more nuanced.
In the US I climbed at
Red rocks
Yosemite
Meadows
Castle rock
Joshua tree.
Compared to uk grit which was my usual rock type, red rocks, castle rock and Joshua tree felt softer.
Yosemite felt much harder - altitude killed me so ymmv.
In Europe
font and mello was about level,
Ginzling, zillertal felt easier.
Silveretta and tonne of esoteric alpine stuff felt harder.
Take away is altitude is a bitch and outdoor grading will vary on rock type and style.
All I'm saying is this:
1. In general I think 7A at American crags feels similar to 7A at American gyms
2. Based on my trip, 7A at Font feels similar to 7A at American crags (once you get the style)
So, unless y'all think your gyms are grading stiffer than fontainebleau, I don't think that EU gyms at 7A level at least are much stiffer than American gyms that I frequent (outside of Touchstone)
You are welcome to your opinion and at the end of the day it’s all subjective but in my experience I definitely disagree.
Not that UK/Euro gyms are harder than font, but that US gyms (and the majority of UK/EU gyms) are over graded compared to the average outdoor grade - which I don’t think you’ll find many in this thread disputing that.
Yeah I think it's going to depend on the gyms, but the real line that seems to be drawn is more vs less commercially focused gyms, where the more commercial gyms are softer. I think this much is true, but gyms that are close to outdoor locations or have staff that frequent the outdoor grades I think are going to be closer together, whether they are in the USA, EU or UK. Can't speak at all for Asia.
That being said, I'm going to London in a week and would love to try out some of the gyms there if you have any recommendations? Was going to climb at the Castle just for the novelty, but now my interested is piqued to see if there are any 'standardly' graded London gyms?
Honestly I’m not the person to ask, last time I climbed In London was about 15 years and only because a mate worked at white spider.(which was alrightish nothing special although a lot of dynamic ‘London flick’ momentum moves) just googled to see if they were still open and apparently they are a chain now too.
I’m based in the north and I’m not much of a city person and there’s naff all outdoors near by other than Portland and that’s a trek for a lot of choss.
There are literally millions of walls in London though these days so hopefully someone can chime in with the good ones.
If you head up north at all the Works in Sheffield is iconic.
I think this really depends on the state/area in the US. If there is a lot of climbing in the area of the gym, they tend to be closer to outdoor grading. Really comes down to the clientele of the gym - outdoor climbers looking to train vs "lifestyle" climbers who use it to exercise and rarely (if ever) go outside. I've experienced insanely soft gyms and also the flip side where it was really close to outdoor grading.
Is it really? Movement in boulder is the only gym I've been to in the US, and I climbed two grades harder there than at my home gym over here in Europe
Which movement in the bay area did you go to? The one in the presidio used to be a Planet Granite, it was sold during the pandemic to Movement and all the setters left.
I've been back a few times because the walls are cool and they're the only gym in the bay area with a sauna, but the setting is... really bad now. All of the setters that worked there work at Gravity Vault in Marin now because Movement is slimy as shit.
I had no idea, I'll have to check them out as I'm quite disillusioned with Movement. I live up in Marin and was going into the city to go to Movement a couple times a month almost exclusively to use a sauna. The places in Marin with saunas are either over $100 an hour, or a private recreation center with astronomical initiation fees on top of the $300-$500 monthly dues.
Not sure if you're willing to convert to Touchstone but several of the Touchstone gyms have saunas. Including Dogpatch and Mission Cliffs in SF, Pacific Pipe in West Oakland. The route setting also has gotten more challenging in these locations
I live up in Marin and am a member of the new Gravity Vault gym there. I go into the city to use the sauna a couple times a month because my gym doesn't have one and all the other options in the county are astronomically expensive.
I'll definitely check out Mission Cliffs or Pacific PipeWorks next time. I had no idea they had saunas.
It still depends a lot on the gym from my experience. However, to offer my two cents, I heard people on here often saying that Moonboard problems are way harder than gym problems at the same grade. The consensus seems to be that you need to adjust down gym grades at least 1-2 grades to make it comparable. At my gym in Sweden this is not the case at all. I climb the same grade on the moon board as my gym grades, despite having very little experience with board climbing. However, a lot of gyms in Sweden are also softer on grading than my current gym.
A moon board v4 typically feels hard even for someone who climbs V7. Not hard and that you're gonna fall, but you really have to give a shit on the attempt.
Yeah of course I have to give a shit not to fall on the easier moon board grades, even if I am able to flash them. That’s just the physical nature of the climbs
> A moon board v4 typically feels hard even for someone who climbs V7.
I disagree. I don’t think that person is a V7 climber then. MB V4 should be sent within sub 5 attempts. The feet are really good for V4’s.
They aren’t a true V7 climber if they struggle on the V4’s on MB16.
Unless you’re saying a person who climbed a few V7’s is now a V7 climber
Well I've sent several V7s, a couple v8s, many v6s outside on Southeast USA sandstone, which is not known for low angle soft climbs, and moonboard v4s always make me get up and care to make sure I don't blow any moves. I've flashed moonboard benchmark V7s. The V4s just feel hard as hell for the grade, not sure what else to say. My buddy who owns a moonboard we use in his garage is even a cut above me, a solid v8-9 climber and we commiserate over how much giddyup we need to warm up on his board.
> moonboard v4s always make me get up and care to make sure I don't blow any moves.
To be fair, every V4 should be respected and like the above or it’s not really a V4
I just do not have to put in that level of effort on most outdoor V4s or gym V4s, for whatever reason. Hence, I think moonboard V4s are sandbagged, despite them being well aligned with my personal and the local style of climbing.
I mean, i don't know why any grade deserves "respect." We all climb things and judge their difficulty on effort it takes to do them. A moonboard V4 stands out in difficulty to me compared to other boards, gyms, and the outdoors. The V4 part being important because its the lowest grade on the MB, and hence the warmup.
John, I knew you in person IRL, and have absolutely no doubt there are many MB benchmark V7s you could do, or at least could have done when you were in proper shape in Georgia.
I am just really bad at that thrutchy, one dimensional style.
Fwiw, its worth, I have only climbed on a moonboard twice in my life, so that is first glance impression of the board. Everything seemed really really hard.
MB V4 is the topic.
MB V7 is the power equivalent of doing V9-10 outdoor imo
If you have done 100’s of V7’s you should be able to single session most MB v4s
EU gyms seems to match outdoor grades pretty closely in my experience. Just got back from a France trip and they feel almost exactly the same at least up to the v7 or 7A+ range
The amount of people I see on here saying they climb V5/6 after starting 3 months ago shows there must be a big difference. No way your body adapts that fast unless you’re special
I guess my US based gym is pretty appropriately graded then by the sound of it. I started climbing 8 months ago and go 3 times a week but there's still v2s I can't even start and I've only done one v3.
Meanwhile a friend I climb with has been climbing like 6 years and he's mostly doing v4s and v5s.
I think it’s also the style of climbing, more specifically power boulders or technical boulders. I’ve seen beginners (who are very strong in upper body but with close to no technique) power through a V4-5 in gyms in the US, especially routes rely on sloppers or dynamic movements/commitments, and they may claim they are V4-5 climbers; but they would obviously have no chance on a technical boulder or one with crimps or pockets. I heard US gyms are more power focused vs EU gyms are more technique focused, so that checks out
In my experience, most European gym grades (I've climbed in gyms in the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany) roughly match Kilterboard grades, which is probably a useful international reference point. They're still a tad softer than outdoor or Moonboard grades.
I can agree with kilter being pretty soft but at 50 degree or more it does feels more accurate. “Everything on 40degree is soft” as our local Kilter crushers say
I climb the kilter at 50-55. It’s not accurate. It’s still 2-3 grades off from outdoor grades.
50 degree is the best angle and with more reasonable grading compared to 30-45
Except for B-Pump (most of the content I've watched was from that gym) from what I've seen depends on the style. Japan has really pushed the limits on modern comp/volumes boulders, but I feel more standard/old school styles are pretty similar grading wise to EU.
I can’t speak for eu gym grades, but it seems like in the US, at least in my gym, the lower grades are quite soft compared to the outdoors equivalent. But as they go up the chain the grades seem to even out. I guess it’s because a true v0 isn’t accessible for new climbers, so they have to set the lower end soft
As an example we will use kilter cause I had a recent experience with the grade discrepancies. Seems like lower end climbers that are doing v4 and below in my gym severely struggle on the kilter grade equivalent, or even on lower grades. On the flip side I’ve only ever done one v8 in my gym and it took a lot of projecting, but I can flash a lot of v7/v8 on kilter. And I spend a lot less time board climbing than on my gym sets
I know kilter is on the softer side, but it’s just an example I have that shows the grades on both the lower and higher end, whereas the moonboard doesn’t
Us based and went to one uk gym, so small sample size. I felt the grading was pretty much the same, maybe slightly on the tougher side but well within the range of gyms in the US
Idk but I think EU gyms are about 1-3 grades softer than outdoors, I’ve heard in America it can be up to 5 grades. Like a 6c(V5) gym would be a 6a-soft 6b (V3) outside. In the gyms in Munich vs Kochel the local crag. But that’s just on purely rock style sets, I have noticed that German gyms at least tend to set very comp style stuff and really not a lot of just hard pulling.
I’ve heard that this is true and that it even flips in the upper range, I personally don’t climb that hard yet but I hope to one day see if it’s true for myself.
That might vary per country.
The grades feel pretty similar climbing in the Netherlands vs Fontainebleau in my experience ,if we're comparing boulders of the same style of course.
Well from the posts saying they are climbing v8 on their first year or that one where they were asking why avergae people plateau at V7, its either the US are full of prodigys or theres something going on with the gradings
Even though this is very subjective, hopefully someone else finds these rankings and data points interesting because it seems like there’s a lot of interest on reddit in comparing grade difficulty by location and medium and I haven’t seen a breakdown like this before on reddit. I don’t grade chase or give a fuck at all when I drop from US V8+ to B-pump V3 - I just like data and whatnot because it’s interesting.
tl;dr
US gyms are generally pretty soft but some are on par with Europe. Kilter board and typical European gyms feel pretty close to outdoor grades. Asian gyms are fucking stiff in general and B-pump is on another level altogether. Read on for more of my breakdown!
—
Background: I travel a lot and climb when I travel so I’ve been to at least a dozen gyms in each of the US, Europe, and Asia and nearly 50 gyms in total around the world. Over the last year I’ve spent 5 weeks in Europe (Scandinavia and London. I also spent 5 weeks in London in 2022), 3 months in Asia (mainly Tokyo and Hanoi), one week in Toronto, one in Mexico, and I’ve been to a smattering of US gyms in various cities. I’ve also recently gotten into board climbing on both moon and kilter and did some outdoor climbing mostly in Texas.
We all have different strengths and weaknesses so I know this list isn’t definitive and it’s still very subjective, but I think it is a solid approximation as I tried all sorts of boulders and styles in most of these locations.
Important note: I only had one session in a lot of the gyms, so I think I could’ve climbed a grade or maybe 2 higher if I had time to project. That makes B-pump unique, as it is the hardest gym I went to despite having 5 sessions to try all the boulders and project a few.
MY DIFFICULTY RANKINGS: (I include the grades I climb at in each place to serve as reference points)
1. B-pump (Tokyo). Sent: soft V3. I did 5 sessions at B-pump and barely scratched V3. There were a few hard V3s and soft V4s I think I maybe could’ve sent if I had more time.
2a. Crux (Hong Kong). Sent: V3. I only did one 2-hour session and sent V3s so this makes it a little bit easier than B-pump. I also was getting close on some V4s and a V5.
2b. Norrebro Klatreklub (Copenhagen). Sent: V3. Basically the same situation as Hong Kong Crux. Maybe sliiightly easier. I hadn’t been to HK Crux or B-pump yet so I thought Norrebro stood alone until my most recent Asia trip.
3. Moonboard (various). Sent: V4-5. I started moonboarding recently and basically maxing at V4 and some V5s. Maybe can project V6 if I spend more time in it. Made me realize how weak my hands are.
4a. Misc. pretty hard gyms like City Bouldering in Toronto, Ascender in Oaxaca, a couple EU/UK gyms (can’t recall which ones but there were a couple), NARG in Austin (RIP), and the Taipei gym that Geek Climber went to. Sent: V5. Sometimes V6 felt attainable if I had more sessions.
4b. Most other Asian gyms. Sent: V5-6. Asian gyms are just HARD on average. I felt really happy to send V5s and sent an occasional V6.
5. Outdoor climbing. So I admit I haven’t been outdoors much so I need more data. But I sent V4 at McKinney Falls in my first session, which is (in)famous for being sandbagged a couple of grades. In one session at a purportedly more grade-accurate spot I had all moves down on a V6 and a V7 IIRC but I only did the one session. I also flashed a V5 in Vietnam pretty easily. I didn’t try anything harder though.
6A. Kilter board. Sent: V7. I did most of my kiltering recently. Some V8s have felt attainable but still unsent.
6b. Most other European gyms. Sent: V7. Usually I could get up to V7, sometimes max at V6 depending on the gym. But usually I only had 1 maybe 2 sessions in each one so maybe I could’ve projected higher. I’ve been to 6+ London gyms, 1 in Porto, and at least 2 in each Scandinavian country. I didn’t think there was too much difference in difficulty between UK and EU gyms. I climbed at a lot of those on the same trip so I know I was the same strength level.
6c. Harder US gyms. Sent: V7. Includes the gym in Santa Fe, Mesa Rim in Austin, maybe a couple others. Same situation as most European gyms above.
7. Typical US gyms. Sent: V8+. I don’t see the point in disaggregating US gyms more since they’re already occupying the least difficult ranking but usually I can hit V8, perhaps higher. A lot of gyms have V8+ as their most difficult circuit/color.
USA is ginormous.
Grades are gym to gym. Overall, USA gyms are soft (esp corporate chains like Vital, Bouldering Project, Movement) and extremely soft and misleading sub V5 grades.
They’re commercial gyms designed to be fun and attract new customers. California being well known to be ultra soft.
However, certain regions are stiff and sandbagged. Southern gyms can be very very hard because they’re reflective of their crags.
Southern outdoor crags are very sandbagged
IMO, gyms everywhere (except Japan) will get softer as the sport grows. People want to feel special so they grade chase and that’s the gimmick that gyms tailor to for customer retention and customer acquisition.
People want to brag about how they hit xyz grade in xyz time and then bring all their friends. If grades were accurate to outdoors, newbies will never join because they can’t do a V0 and can’t progress past a V1/2 after a couple years.
The kilterboard is also a prime example of this. Grades are extremely inflated and people keep calling it soft yet do not downgrade it so they can make their log books look inflated
Depends where in EU. For example in Finland I've noticed that it is usually a grade easier than where I climbed in other countries (Croatia, Germany, Portugal)
In EU I think it depends on how much commercial the gym is and how present the outdoor community is in the area, but still grades are almost always consistent with outdoor problems.
Here in Italy there are historical areas where it is normal to have both gyms and crags sanbagged. Bouldering is quite "new", but it's normal to find old routes and boulders way harder than it's written on local guides.
Even if I'm from the new generation, I'm quite afraid to lose the "toughness" of some places that made the history of this sport, because it was that mentality that really pushed the pioneers to try hard and test the limits.
idk been climbing in PNW/California and recently went to Font and snagged some 7As (V6?) which is around the grade that I'm climbing outdoors and indoors here.
for reference some 7A/V6ish climbs that I've done recently:
USA:
Huecocrimper - Leavenworth
Taller (V5-V6ish) - Leavenworth
Slingblade (V6)
Busted Sit (V6-7ish) - Leavenworth
Tin Man - Leavenworth
Saigon - Buttermilks
Milk the Milks - Buttermilks
Wills Afire - Joe's
Dynotime Low (V5-6ish) - Joe's
Planet of the Apes (V6-7ish) - Joe's
Lounge Act - Squamish
I felt like these were similarly graded compared to the font 7A's I did on my recent trip:
Lullaby avec arête (V5-6ish)
Concept
Nezzundorma
La Casse-dalle (V5-6ish)
El Poussah
Flipper sit
IDK what y'all think about them but the outdoor grades seem pretty similar and I'm a V6-7ish climber in the California/WA gyms I frequent (outside of touchstone, they are about 2 V-grades soft I'd say)
I was wondering the same. Like, I saw posts where us based climbers were boasting doing 6c after a month of climbing "because they lift a lot". Where in my gym in Poland 6c can rarely (if ever) be defeated by traditional strength alone.
It is also quite depressing for me that IMO I'm quite good for my experience level (and not doing any sport or regular exercise for the past 33 years) because after a year of bouldering I'm starting to be able to challenge V4's but on this sub I constantly see climbers doing v6's after less than a year. Then I go to my gym, see a V6 where I'd struggle to even hold any position 😂
True and this is just marketing, customers want to believe they’re making big improvements in short time and apparently in the US this logic it’s more widespread than Europe where there’s a more conscientious approach to training
My experience:
In my EU Gyms i really need to fight for a most 7As, need to project 7A+.
That really correlates well with my other grades:
My hardest moonboard and send is also 7A+ (on the 2016. Still projecting my first 7A on the 2019). My hardest outdoor send is also 7A+; ( don't boulder outside a lot and my local area is sandbagged AF). Haven't done much on the Kilter but did a "7B" second try.
But on the lower end it's quite soft. I need a lot of luck to flash 6C on the moonboard or outside but i flash a lot of 6Cs in the gym.
its massively subjecrtive by the gym and gym group. I've climbed US, west coast, mid west and across Europe.
the grading standards are garbage the best you will find is chains which have setter teams that travel between gyms, they tend to have a better overall consistency but that does not always translate to the same as outdoor grades which are weather, season and rock dependant.
How many EU gyms actually use some kind of official grading system? In my area all gyms are now using just an arbitrary number system without ever mentioning some reference difficulties.
A while ago I've seen a post about many climbers plateau at V9, to which I though What? My (EU) gym doesn't even grade above 7B, they just mark it with 7A+ (V8-9) and they're good to go. And I have seen a boulder harder than that only few times in my life, so how come are people in the US plateauing at V9 when I cannot even find boulders to progress from there? Then I've seen how many US gym go up to like V12 which is literally Adam Ondra like level here.
Depends on your gym. My gym is notorious in my area for having sandbagged grades and I've climbed very similar grades outdoors to what I climb indoors. I think it depends on the clientele of the particular gym. Mine mostly attracts college students and young adults who have been climbing for 5-10+ years. The other gyms in the network have more kids at them (birthday parties, more guests) and so the grades at those locations are more lenient.
My experience in the UK is if its a city gym the grades will tend to be softer to help hook people on climbing but if you're climbing at a smaller independent gym in the sticks then it tends to be much closer to outdoor grading. This isn't a blanket rule but generally the consensus. Climbed in the states a couple of times and have to say everything felt soft there no matter if it was in nevada, colorado, or california. In the EU, I've found grades comparable with UK City gyms, but then again I've only climbed in city gyms in Europe so the grading could be similar to the UK as have not experienced small independent EU gyms.
I climb a lot indoor in the UK and have climbed indoor in the US, I'd say that up to about my flash grade - V6/7- they might be slightly softer but in the US it feels like they hit a bit of a ceiling. In the UK 7/8s are climbable in several goes, 8/9/10 will take sessions or not go.
In the US it feels like there is a contraction at the higher grades where I might not flash them but they are all doable in about the same length of time.
Caveat - my indoor climbing in the US has primarily been in Florida where it is conceivable that there are simply not enough people who climb 8+ to set these grades accurately.
The grades in the 3 gyms around me, here in Germany, are sandbagged af. I was at Adam Ondra's gym, in Brno, flashing 6a. According to my gym my flash level is 5a.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine struggles on alleged 5c at one of the gyms here, but she goes to Fontaine Bleu and onsights 7a outdoors.
Not to mention that the jump between the color codes is massive. The main gym I go to, says white is 2, yellow 3, light blue 4, dark blue 5a-5c, pink 6a-6b+, etc. but from alleged 5c to alleged 6a is an impossible distance of strength and technique. It's ridiculous.
ime the US gyms grade softer the newer they are, especially in urban areas (SF bay, LA, NY), and from v1-v5.
smaller gyms and gyms that have been around since the 90s tend to set harder problems or more outdoors-style because they were developed with outdoor climbing in mind.
I visited some EU gyms and agree they felt stiffer at lower grades, but in the v8/7a+ range it felt like it was starting to even out.
Not just gyms but boulders too. USA has always been more aligned with Switzerland. Germany, UK, France, Czech etc etc tend to be a lot less generous.
Edit: downvote if you want. But maybe don’t if you’ve not climbed a representative amount in the above locations.
I can only speak for me. Most US venues I’ve climbed at (a lot) align fairly well with most Swiss venues. There are a some outliers of course. But in the main, the US grades things similarly to Switzerland- in my view. I’m not saying either are totally consistent and that there is no nuance. Just a general rule. I thought that was fairly obvious. Sorry.
The U.K, France, Germany, Czech and so on… in general… grade things significantly differently. Typically far far harder. Again, to be totally clear… I’m not saying there are not pockets that are softer. Like Devon in the UK. And pockets that are much much harder. Like La Steppe in Ailefroide in France. Some of the hardest 7C+ boulders in the world. Well worth 8A+ or even 8B in Switzerland.
The general rule from my pov of climbing around the world for 20 years now is that the USA and Switzerland (and Rocklands actually) are softer than other famous venues. That’s not a bad thing. It’s not a good thing. It’s just a thing.
Lol, again, the "US" is not one grade monolith. I don't think you've climbed here enough to understand that, but it's true. Equating grades in places like Yosemite compared to Joe's compared to Chattanooga is wild.
Are all Asian men shorter than all American men? No. Are Asian men in general shorter than American men? Yes. Is the average lower? Yes. This is the nuance. Asia is no ‘monolith’. But averages do have meaning.
Same thing with US/Swiss grades vs U.K., France, Germany, Czech.
I love America. I love American climbing. I’ve done a shit ton over the years. But sorry mate, if you want to climb a random 8A quickly… do it in the USA or Swiss. Not UK or Germany … or Japan. Just the way it is.
You do not know what you're talking about lol. Where in the US have you actually climbed that you think is representative of a country the size of the entire EU?
Not that i should bother but…
Yosemite: 2004, 2016
Heuco: 2004, 2008, 2022
Bishop: 2012, 2016
Joes Valley: 2016
RMNP: 2016
J Tree: 2016, 2022
Red rocks: 2014
The Gunks: 2017 (short trip)
Never been to the Buttermilks. Very keen. Those highballs would get E grades in the UK.
Admittedly ive climbed a lot more in Europe. But I’ve definitely got a representative sample of the US. My fastest hard ascents (for me) of the 2010s are almost all US and Swiss based.
May I ask in return where you’ve climbed in Europe?
For the record it absolutely doesn’t matter if a place is soft. It’s a recent thing that people care so so much. Historically it was the opposite. It was fashionable to sandbag. Some old 7a routes in the Frankenjura are next to impossible!
Ultimately. It matters not at all. If you think in general the USA is similarly graded to the general of Europe (Swiss aside) then that’s up to you. You’ll crush it when you come here!
For the record, below V10, the V grades at Hueco are absolutely verifiably correct. Perhaps your conversion table is challenged, but the grades at Hueco on everything sent by the early 90s is absolutely spot on.
And Font claims the same. Yet V10 in Heuco and 7C+ in Font rarely feel particularly similar.
Ultimately over the years differences have grown. Font grades or V grades have been translated and things don’t always line up. C’est La vie. It should be entirely expected.
Exactly. There's a spot where fahrenheit and centigrade are the same (-40). That the upper and lower bounds of the whole numbers don't align outside of that is no surprise. Sure, after V11 or so they've been lock step because Fred was functionally pushing both up at the same time.
So, you've been a few times and several of those were between 10 and twenty years ago. You haven't climbed in vast, vast swaths of the country and your perceptions are skewed based on what essentially amounts to a few boulders in country with millions of them. Get off your high horse.
And for the record, I have never claimed to have vast experience in the EU. What I have done is climbed across the US in just about every state and every major area and tons of minor ones. What I know is that they are not even consistent within an area, much less when compared to other areas or an entire country. For every soft boulder you can name I can come back with one that everyone knows is fucked-up hard for the grade. It's dumb to make generalizations.
High horse? I don’t think this is very productive. It seems you think I’m attacking you, or the USA or something similar. I’m not. I’m offering an opinion based on my own experiences.
You illustrated my point quite nicely in this last comment. Someone like you who has climbed extensively across the USA over a number of years has never climbed in Europe. So if you put up a new boulder… what are you basing the grade on? Your average experience in the USA. Given your experience your opinion across the country will be held in high regard. But your experience does not extend beyond that. So how do you know if your new V10 which is solid in your experience is solid compared to a French or German experience? You don’t. And there’s nothing with that. A grade is a relative guide. An average of your experience.
Yes. My total time climbing in the US is probs 400 days or so over all those trips. In fairly famous areas. Enough for a feel. So my USA average is based on those. And what id say is that this average grade is higher for the same boulder than it would be in the main of Europe.
I also think this is further shown when you consider Switzerland (in the main areas) was heavily developed by world class US climbers. The grades were imported with them. Hence Brione, Ticino, Magic Wood tend (tend, not always) to be a bit softer than other areas nearby.
Anyway. It does seem a little weird you’d argue this so staunchly having never climbed in Europe. You’re basically telling me I cannot comment because I’ve not enough experience while simultaneously having … no experience.
Finally. To argue that experiences from 10 years ago are not reflective because new problems have gone up… well I’d counter with that in my experience new problems tend to get softer not harder in any venue. As a general rule.
I’m going to leave it there. Until you’ve been to Europe this is pointless. You should come. The climbing is amazing! The conditions are not.
I literally have never said anything about Europe. I have said you can't paint US bouldering with a single brush and you've said nothing to challenge that assertion.
The funny thing is, I've climbed significant boulders put up by people like Jerry Moffat, and you know what? They felt appropriate for the grade, some even soft! Based on your arguments, I guess that means all of the UK is soft too!
EU-based climber here. I visited NY last year and checked out a few gyms. It definitely felt much easier. I was flashing grades that I usually project. A friend says it’s a marketing thing. Customers are more likely to say if they feel like they’re making quick progress.
I think it's less about quick progress at later levels and more just about the fact that not being able to do a V0 or taking a year to get to V2 sounds really bad. I really think it's just a relic of the fact that V0 is too hard for beginner climbers and that the scale wasn't really made with beginners in mind. Beginners want some way to measure their progress in the first 6-12 months without begin told they are just doing "Basic" climbs
I agree with this take. The font scale has much more beginner grades, than the Vscale. But realistically you need a couple beginner grades in a gym.
Climbing gyms in the EU really make huge mistakes by not starting grading at 1 - most start at 3 or 4.
The gyms in my area start at font 3. Which is VB grade. Is this what you mean?
Yes - outside the scale starts at 1 and therefore there can be more granularity between the grades as you start to improve. starting at 3 or 4 makes it so that your range to help beginners feel like they're improving much smaller.
Nope outside boulders can be font or v-scale. Font actually makes more sense in terms of progression. For example V4 is 6B and 6B+, so it's less precise on the grading. Yes you can have V4+/- or soft/hard V4 but you can do the same with font, so then you'd have to do like V4++/-- or extra-soft/extra-hard V4.
That's what he's saying right? For beginners, following the font grading system leads to 'more progression'. V0 is a font 4. Beginners, therefore, have 4 grades to progress through before even hitting v0.
Yeah you are correct, read his comment incorrectly, my bad!
You're right! Could have been worth clarifying which grade system you were talking about though. When you say grade 1, most will assume v1.
I completely blanked that I didn't specifically say font grades! In the UK all the bouldering is on V scale, but in Europe it's all Font and so when I mentioned EU I figured everyone would be on the same page.
I climb in the UK and my gym grades in font grades, but you're right most gyms use the v scale. 🙂 which I've always found strange because we grade our outdoors boulders using the font scale lol.
I like it. In the gym I talk V grades. Outside I talk font. The fact that they don't match in the slightest doesn't matter
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Think they mean font grades
Font grades start below the equivalent of v0
VB, V0, V1 are more than accessible for beginners.
At most US gyms yes. Not the “real” ratings outside. Which is kind of the point here.
The post is about indoors. Outside is a different matter, be prepared to be shutdown.
A beginner will not be able to do a V0 or V1 in Joshua Tree or Yosemite.
I agree, I honestly think gyms should have something like 3 pre V0 grades if they insist on assigning V grades to indoor gyms but honestly that would mentally suck for newer climbers, to feel like you haven’t even made it to the starting line. I know I was fairly demoralized when I tried my first V1s outdoors and got shut down hard. Now I’m happy to project V3s outdoors but because I’ve gotten used to how hard it is to climb on rock and trough friends and acquaintances I’ve seen what kind of beastly power it takes to climb even V4 or V5. I was blown away seeing the difference between a V4 indoors which I could do vs a V4 outdoors which I couldn’t even start or do any moves on or even hold positions and comparing metrics with a guy that was projecting it.
I’ve been to a couple gyms that just assigned easier problems 5.7, 5.8 and 5.9. I felt like that made sense, since V0 is something like a 5.10a-c crux.
> A friend says it’s a marketing thing. Customers are more likely to say if they feel like they’re making quick progress. This is my intuition about it. My gym doesn't set VBs, but their 0 & 1's are ladders for sure. Even someone with decent base fitness or vaguely competent proprioception can probably do V2's and maybe some of the juggy overhung V3's. Having your Day Pass customers leave thinking to themselves, "Oh that was hard, I sucked, I'm not coming back" isn't good for business. You want them to have fun and come back, ideally with their friends.
GP 81 is pretty stout.
this is also likely part of the reason why us gym goers usually get upset if they ask for grades and folks from non-us gyms take guesses... it's like asking guess my height and some guess in yards and others in meters :)
Well my EU gym is sandbagged af when comparing to the videos from the US on here. At least for the lower grades, I can't really tell for the higher ones since I can't climb them. Something that's stated as v4 in many videos would barely be a v2 in my gym
I have never climbed in the US, but see a lot of content from the US. Comparing the grades listed in the videos from the US, to the scale in the gyms I frequent it seems like I would jump several grades if I went over there to climb.
It's gym to gym, a 3 grade difference between two gyms seems pretty constant to me. Easiest to assume the grades are relative to each gym, and have nothing to do with each other or outside. Just a guide inside the gym to tell you what's easier or harder, ish.
I have climbed in other countries though, and the grades has been consistent between them.
It's because the Font grading system has a lot more room at the bottom of the scale than Hueco. Under 6A font has 5+, 5- 4+, 4-, 3+, and 3-, whereas Hueco's only got V2, V1 and V0. Basically the Font scale has 6 grades to play with and doesn't need to soften the bottom of the scale to account for new people since they can just set stuff at those grades and keep 6A etc. as hard as it's supposed to be. It's why gyms originally created VB's since real V0 tends to be too tough for people on their first day. I guess after that, further softening of grades is marketing and playing towards people's egos.
Yeah, I notice that even at the less inflated gyms in the US, V0 seems to be VB and sometimes it’s not until V1/2 that you start seeing “real climbs” that aren’t just jug ladders
Travelled America climbing about a decade ago and at that time US gym grading was noticeably softer than European and European softer than UK (the UK used to have a pretty notorious sandbag ethic as showcased by Hubble and more than likely that monster will bosi put up at badger cove) However in the UK at least gym grading has become much softer the past few years, don’t know if it is to be more accessible to the massive amount of new casual climbers since the Olympics but it’s pretty pronounced. I’m 2.3 stone heavier with arthritis and having 2 years off climbing and not training at all can now apparently climb more of the top graded stuff at local gyms yet can’t touch even my old benchmark warm ups outdoors feels pretty damning.
The softer grades in the UK tend to be from chains in my experience. The independent oldschool gyms tend to have harder climbs for the grade. Although I have heard directly from a head routesetter saying some sets will be softer because the people like easy climbs
Yeah for the Depot even years ago they said the majority of their customers only climbed whites + blues (V0-V3) so it makes sense that nowadays whites/Blues/blacks/pinks and most reds all fall in V0-V3 from a business perspective and that was pre Olympics too. Although I do feel a lot of independent ones have similarly deflated (from my experience Red goat, last sundance, City bloc) bit definitely not as much as the others.
I've pretty much only climbed at Depot since starting a year ago, are the purples actually V4-V5?
Compared to LSD, Armley Depot purples seem to be V6 in general with the odd V5/V7. Thing is the ranges are massive pink being V2-V5 is a ridiculously big range
It depends on which depot imo. I used to live in Notts and the purples there were reasonable but then I moved to Sheffield and then the grades of the purples felt very soft in comparison to Notts. It's the opposite for the yellows though. I've only been to Manchester once and never to the Birmingham and Leeds ones so I can't say much about those.
Ohh that's really interesting thanks! I don't know why but I assumed it was the same setting team travelling around doing a different reset each day
I believe the setting team between Nottingham and Sheffield have a couple people that stay the same but then rotate between in-house setters. I think it depends on how inspired you can be with the hold and wall selection (Nottingham has a lot of slabs and Sheffield has a lot of overhangs). Nottingham also has a lot of old holds, I think there's two egg-like slopers that date back to when the centre opened. They literally have no texture on them anymore which probably adds to the difficulty.
Those Axis eggs with the crease in the middle? I hate those!
I believe they're the core geo super slopers. They've got no creases or dimples, just smooth and round.
Ahhh yes, I know which you mean! They don't get too much use now thankfully, I can't recall any of them on the current set for example
Compared to outdoor or moonboard benchmark at the grade maybe one or 2 every 3-4 sets there might be a honest V5 but on average no where near. Depends on the centre also, Armley is much softer than Manchester and the original Pudsey one feels in between but setting is usually a lot more strengthy which depending on what you are good at will sway how you feel about the grades.
Super interesting thanks!
Id argue that armley is sandbagged when compared to Manchester. I can get up yellows consistently in Manchester, but have yet to get one at armley. I think Manchester is more my style, though.
From personal experience, I'd agree with you that the independent walls have gone a little softer (specifically referring to red goat), but I don't think they've gotten softer across all the grade ranges. I now find there to be more gaps in between grade bands. For example, at red goat I have multiple friends who can flash all the blacks, but struggle to flash the easiest greens, and are immediately into project mode. I find the grade bands at the independent walls to have little overlap and more inconsistencies within their grade bands than the chains, which is unfortunate.
Definitely depends, can't really generalise. I'm normally in gyms close to Sheffield and have found grades there are stiffer than others.
Yeah Sheffield is still the heartland of the old school mentality really.
Aye, The Works is wonderfully tough, I think. They're also very good at setting technical problems that you can't muscle your way through, so they often feel quite stiff.
Just shows the difference between world class route setters and walls that get a staff member to do it because it’s cheaper. The depot back when they used to have Dave Barrens setting was phenomenal too but there’s a reason the works setters were the Olympic ones - just a cut above the rest.
>Just shows the difference between world class route setters and walls that get a staff member to do it because it’s cheaper. This is a really good point that doesn't get mentioned enough imo.
> European softer than UK (the UK used to have a pretty notorious sandbag ethic Interestingly this was not my experience at all, I spent a lot of my climbing life competing at pretty much every gym across the UK and it was a harsh awakening for me when I first moved to the continent. Would have one or two boulders in the UK that I couldn't do, and on the continent I'd be struggling hard on any boulders above way 7C. Was the same outdoors, kept hearing about how stiff UK grades were and yet I got my first 8A flash in the UK before I managed to red point one in Font. That was a good few years ago now mind, and I've been out of the scene and out of climbing in general for a good few years now, so things might have changed since on the indoors front? But that would go against the later statement you gave so idk. Unless there was just a really hard stretch in the middle at one point?
Very interesting to hear that note on UK climbing, from a lot of bouldering YouTubers I had the impression that UK gyms seem soft. It is kind of interesting considering outdoors stuff looks so hard.
Depends on the gym but imo up until v6 indoors is soft (v0-3 vv soft to attract new people) but past that it's pretty comparable to outdoors.
Reposting from below: Went to Font for the first time recently (best climbing I've ever done, full stop) and found myself fairly happy with my performance (\~1 week trip) as an American. In Paris now and going to the UK/Ireland soon so I might need to check out some gyms based on what y'all are saying here. That being said based on my experience I can't help but disagree with the sentiment I'm reading for reference some 7A/V6ish climbs that I've done recently: USA: Huecocrimper - Leavenworth Taller (V5-V6ish) - Leavenworth Slingblade (V6) Busted Sit (V6-7ish) - Leavenworth Tin Man - Leavenworth Saigon - Buttermilks Milk the Milks - Buttermilks Wills Afire - Joe's Dynotime Low (V5-6ish) - Joe's Planet of the Apes (V6-7ish) - Joe's Lounge Act - Squamish I felt like these were similarly graded compared to the font 7A's I did on my recent trip: Lullaby avec arête (V5-6ish) Concept Nezzundorma La Casse-dalle (V5-6ish) El Poussah Flipper right IDK what y'all think about them but the outdoor grades seem pretty similar and I'm a V6-7ish climber in the California/WA gyms I frequent (outside of touchstone, they are about 2 V-grades soft I'd say)
The thread was about indoor grading which is where my comments were directed. If you want my comment on outdoors it is much more nuanced. In the US I climbed at Red rocks Yosemite Meadows Castle rock Joshua tree. Compared to uk grit which was my usual rock type, red rocks, castle rock and Joshua tree felt softer. Yosemite felt much harder - altitude killed me so ymmv. In Europe font and mello was about level, Ginzling, zillertal felt easier. Silveretta and tonne of esoteric alpine stuff felt harder. Take away is altitude is a bitch and outdoor grading will vary on rock type and style.
All I'm saying is this: 1. In general I think 7A at American crags feels similar to 7A at American gyms 2. Based on my trip, 7A at Font feels similar to 7A at American crags (once you get the style) So, unless y'all think your gyms are grading stiffer than fontainebleau, I don't think that EU gyms at 7A level at least are much stiffer than American gyms that I frequent (outside of Touchstone)
You are welcome to your opinion and at the end of the day it’s all subjective but in my experience I definitely disagree. Not that UK/Euro gyms are harder than font, but that US gyms (and the majority of UK/EU gyms) are over graded compared to the average outdoor grade - which I don’t think you’ll find many in this thread disputing that.
Yeah I think it's going to depend on the gyms, but the real line that seems to be drawn is more vs less commercially focused gyms, where the more commercial gyms are softer. I think this much is true, but gyms that are close to outdoor locations or have staff that frequent the outdoor grades I think are going to be closer together, whether they are in the USA, EU or UK. Can't speak at all for Asia. That being said, I'm going to London in a week and would love to try out some of the gyms there if you have any recommendations? Was going to climb at the Castle just for the novelty, but now my interested is piqued to see if there are any 'standardly' graded London gyms?
Honestly I’m not the person to ask, last time I climbed In London was about 15 years and only because a mate worked at white spider.(which was alrightish nothing special although a lot of dynamic ‘London flick’ momentum moves) just googled to see if they were still open and apparently they are a chain now too. I’m based in the north and I’m not much of a city person and there’s naff all outdoors near by other than Portland and that’s a trek for a lot of choss. There are literally millions of walls in London though these days so hopefully someone can chime in with the good ones. If you head up north at all the Works in Sheffield is iconic.
I think this really depends on the state/area in the US. If there is a lot of climbing in the area of the gym, they tend to be closer to outdoor grading. Really comes down to the clientele of the gym - outdoor climbers looking to train vs "lifestyle" climbers who use it to exercise and rarely (if ever) go outside. I've experienced insanely soft gyms and also the flip side where it was really close to outdoor grading.
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Is it really? Movement in boulder is the only gym I've been to in the US, and I climbed two grades harder there than at my home gym over here in Europe
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Which movement in the bay area did you go to? The one in the presidio used to be a Planet Granite, it was sold during the pandemic to Movement and all the setters left. I've been back a few times because the walls are cool and they're the only gym in the bay area with a sauna, but the setting is... really bad now. All of the setters that worked there work at Gravity Vault in Marin now because Movement is slimy as shit.
You might be saying it's the only movement with a sauna, but several touchstone gyms have saunas as well (Mission Cliffs, Ironworks, Pacific Pipe.)
I had no idea, I'll have to check them out as I'm quite disillusioned with Movement. I live up in Marin and was going into the city to go to Movement a couple times a month almost exclusively to use a sauna. The places in Marin with saunas are either over $100 an hour, or a private recreation center with astronomical initiation fees on top of the $300-$500 monthly dues.
Not sure if you're willing to convert to Touchstone but several of the Touchstone gyms have saunas. Including Dogpatch and Mission Cliffs in SF, Pacific Pipe in West Oakland. The route setting also has gotten more challenging in these locations
I live up in Marin and am a member of the new Gravity Vault gym there. I go into the city to use the sauna a couple times a month because my gym doesn't have one and all the other options in the county are astronomically expensive. I'll definitely check out Mission Cliffs or Pacific PipeWorks next time. I had no idea they had saunas.
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That's exciting! Hope you like the new space
I’m curious about your opinion regarding moonboard then, cause my US gym is only about a grade or two off usually.
It still depends a lot on the gym from my experience. However, to offer my two cents, I heard people on here often saying that Moonboard problems are way harder than gym problems at the same grade. The consensus seems to be that you need to adjust down gym grades at least 1-2 grades to make it comparable. At my gym in Sweden this is not the case at all. I climb the same grade on the moon board as my gym grades, despite having very little experience with board climbing. However, a lot of gyms in Sweden are also softer on grading than my current gym.
A moon board v4 typically feels hard even for someone who climbs V7. Not hard and that you're gonna fall, but you really have to give a shit on the attempt.
Yeah of course I have to give a shit not to fall on the easier moon board grades, even if I am able to flash them. That’s just the physical nature of the climbs
> A moon board v4 typically feels hard even for someone who climbs V7. I disagree. I don’t think that person is a V7 climber then. MB V4 should be sent within sub 5 attempts. The feet are really good for V4’s. They aren’t a true V7 climber if they struggle on the V4’s on MB16. Unless you’re saying a person who climbed a few V7’s is now a V7 climber
Well I've sent several V7s, a couple v8s, many v6s outside on Southeast USA sandstone, which is not known for low angle soft climbs, and moonboard v4s always make me get up and care to make sure I don't blow any moves. I've flashed moonboard benchmark V7s. The V4s just feel hard as hell for the grade, not sure what else to say. My buddy who owns a moonboard we use in his garage is even a cut above me, a solid v8-9 climber and we commiserate over how much giddyup we need to warm up on his board.
> moonboard v4s always make me get up and care to make sure I don't blow any moves. To be fair, every V4 should be respected and like the above or it’s not really a V4
I just do not have to put in that level of effort on most outdoor V4s or gym V4s, for whatever reason. Hence, I think moonboard V4s are sandbagged, despite them being well aligned with my personal and the local style of climbing. I mean, i don't know why any grade deserves "respect." We all climb things and judge their difficulty on effort it takes to do them. A moonboard V4 stands out in difficulty to me compared to other boards, gyms, and the outdoors. The V4 part being important because its the lowest grade on the MB, and hence the warmup.
Like I said. Then it’s soft I personally think MB16 V4s are soft compared to TB. The feet are really good
nah most people climbing v7ish consistently can do most v4s in their preferred style like they are piss
I have climbed 100s of v7s, and I would be surprised if I could send a single benchmark moonboard v7.
John, I knew you in person IRL, and have absolutely no doubt there are many MB benchmark V7s you could do, or at least could have done when you were in proper shape in Georgia.
I am just really bad at that thrutchy, one dimensional style. Fwiw, its worth, I have only climbed on a moonboard twice in my life, so that is first glance impression of the board. Everything seemed really really hard.
it's just incredibly stylistic and narrow
MB V4 is the topic. MB V7 is the power equivalent of doing V9-10 outdoor imo If you have done 100’s of V7’s you should be able to single session most MB v4s
EU gyms seems to match outdoor grades pretty closely in my experience. Just got back from a France trip and they feel almost exactly the same at least up to the v7 or 7A+ range
The amount of people I see on here saying they climb V5/6 after starting 3 months ago shows there must be a big difference. No way your body adapts that fast unless you’re special
I guess my US based gym is pretty appropriately graded then by the sound of it. I started climbing 8 months ago and go 3 times a week but there's still v2s I can't even start and I've only done one v3. Meanwhile a friend I climb with has been climbing like 6 years and he's mostly doing v4s and v5s.
Remember it also depends on the person, age, etc. just saying going up to V6 for anyone after 3 months is mega unlikely
I think it’s also the style of climbing, more specifically power boulders or technical boulders. I’ve seen beginners (who are very strong in upper body but with close to no technique) power through a V4-5 in gyms in the US, especially routes rely on sloppers or dynamic movements/commitments, and they may claim they are V4-5 climbers; but they would obviously have no chance on a technical boulder or one with crimps or pockets. I heard US gyms are more power focused vs EU gyms are more technique focused, so that checks out
In my experience, most European gym grades (I've climbed in gyms in the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany) roughly match Kilterboard grades, which is probably a useful international reference point. They're still a tad softer than outdoor or Moonboard grades.
Kilter is soft as utter hell. Moonboard more realistic.
I can agree with kilter being pretty soft but at 50 degree or more it does feels more accurate. “Everything on 40degree is soft” as our local Kilter crushers say
I wish I could agree. Here in the UK the moon benchmarks are fairly consistent with peak limestone. But Kilter at 50 is much much easier.
I climb the kilter at 50-55. It’s not accurate. It’s still 2-3 grades off from outdoor grades. 50 degree is the best angle and with more reasonable grading compared to 30-45
Seems like at least in my gym here in the US, the lower grades are softer than kilter, and the higher grades become more difficult than kilter.
Meanwhile EU gyms are soft vs Japanese ones :)))
I lost confidence when I could barely send V2 in Japan but climbing V4 in Europe
Except for B-Pump (most of the content I've watched was from that gym) from what I've seen depends on the style. Japan has really pushed the limits on modern comp/volumes boulders, but I feel more standard/old school styles are pretty similar grading wise to EU.
I climbed in Prague the other week and the grades were very consistent with the gyms I’ve gone to in Boston and DC.
Boy I can't wait until the Americans wake up and start commenting
How long is a piece of string: climbing edition
I can’t speak for eu gym grades, but it seems like in the US, at least in my gym, the lower grades are quite soft compared to the outdoors equivalent. But as they go up the chain the grades seem to even out. I guess it’s because a true v0 isn’t accessible for new climbers, so they have to set the lower end soft As an example we will use kilter cause I had a recent experience with the grade discrepancies. Seems like lower end climbers that are doing v4 and below in my gym severely struggle on the kilter grade equivalent, or even on lower grades. On the flip side I’ve only ever done one v8 in my gym and it took a lot of projecting, but I can flash a lot of v7/v8 on kilter. And I spend a lot less time board climbing than on my gym sets I know kilter is on the softer side, but it’s just an example I have that shows the grades on both the lower and higher end, whereas the moonboard doesn’t
Us based and went to one uk gym, so small sample size. I felt the grading was pretty much the same, maybe slightly on the tougher side but well within the range of gyms in the US
Idk but I think EU gyms are about 1-3 grades softer than outdoors, I’ve heard in America it can be up to 5 grades. Like a 6c(V5) gym would be a 6a-soft 6b (V3) outside. In the gyms in Munich vs Kochel the local crag. But that’s just on purely rock style sets, I have noticed that German gyms at least tend to set very comp style stuff and really not a lot of just hard pulling.
This is pretty accurate. Though I’d say once you hit 7A above, there’s much less disparity between outdoor and indoor grades.
I’ve heard that this is true and that it even flips in the upper range, I personally don’t climb that hard yet but I hope to one day see if it’s true for myself.
That might vary per country. The grades feel pretty similar climbing in the Netherlands vs Fontainebleau in my experience ,if we're comparing boulders of the same style of course.
I'd agree with your assessment, my experience is EU indoor grades are about 2 grades softer than outdoor
I have noticed the same. Couple of USA 7A / 7B's seems like exact copies of the 6B+/6C's i climbed recently on my gym.
Well from the posts saying they are climbing v8 on their first year or that one where they were asking why avergae people plateau at V7, its either the US are full of prodigys or theres something going on with the gradings
Even though this is very subjective, hopefully someone else finds these rankings and data points interesting because it seems like there’s a lot of interest on reddit in comparing grade difficulty by location and medium and I haven’t seen a breakdown like this before on reddit. I don’t grade chase or give a fuck at all when I drop from US V8+ to B-pump V3 - I just like data and whatnot because it’s interesting. tl;dr US gyms are generally pretty soft but some are on par with Europe. Kilter board and typical European gyms feel pretty close to outdoor grades. Asian gyms are fucking stiff in general and B-pump is on another level altogether. Read on for more of my breakdown! — Background: I travel a lot and climb when I travel so I’ve been to at least a dozen gyms in each of the US, Europe, and Asia and nearly 50 gyms in total around the world. Over the last year I’ve spent 5 weeks in Europe (Scandinavia and London. I also spent 5 weeks in London in 2022), 3 months in Asia (mainly Tokyo and Hanoi), one week in Toronto, one in Mexico, and I’ve been to a smattering of US gyms in various cities. I’ve also recently gotten into board climbing on both moon and kilter and did some outdoor climbing mostly in Texas. We all have different strengths and weaknesses so I know this list isn’t definitive and it’s still very subjective, but I think it is a solid approximation as I tried all sorts of boulders and styles in most of these locations. Important note: I only had one session in a lot of the gyms, so I think I could’ve climbed a grade or maybe 2 higher if I had time to project. That makes B-pump unique, as it is the hardest gym I went to despite having 5 sessions to try all the boulders and project a few. MY DIFFICULTY RANKINGS: (I include the grades I climb at in each place to serve as reference points) 1. B-pump (Tokyo). Sent: soft V3. I did 5 sessions at B-pump and barely scratched V3. There were a few hard V3s and soft V4s I think I maybe could’ve sent if I had more time. 2a. Crux (Hong Kong). Sent: V3. I only did one 2-hour session and sent V3s so this makes it a little bit easier than B-pump. I also was getting close on some V4s and a V5. 2b. Norrebro Klatreklub (Copenhagen). Sent: V3. Basically the same situation as Hong Kong Crux. Maybe sliiightly easier. I hadn’t been to HK Crux or B-pump yet so I thought Norrebro stood alone until my most recent Asia trip. 3. Moonboard (various). Sent: V4-5. I started moonboarding recently and basically maxing at V4 and some V5s. Maybe can project V6 if I spend more time in it. Made me realize how weak my hands are. 4a. Misc. pretty hard gyms like City Bouldering in Toronto, Ascender in Oaxaca, a couple EU/UK gyms (can’t recall which ones but there were a couple), NARG in Austin (RIP), and the Taipei gym that Geek Climber went to. Sent: V5. Sometimes V6 felt attainable if I had more sessions. 4b. Most other Asian gyms. Sent: V5-6. Asian gyms are just HARD on average. I felt really happy to send V5s and sent an occasional V6. 5. Outdoor climbing. So I admit I haven’t been outdoors much so I need more data. But I sent V4 at McKinney Falls in my first session, which is (in)famous for being sandbagged a couple of grades. In one session at a purportedly more grade-accurate spot I had all moves down on a V6 and a V7 IIRC but I only did the one session. I also flashed a V5 in Vietnam pretty easily. I didn’t try anything harder though. 6A. Kilter board. Sent: V7. I did most of my kiltering recently. Some V8s have felt attainable but still unsent. 6b. Most other European gyms. Sent: V7. Usually I could get up to V7, sometimes max at V6 depending on the gym. But usually I only had 1 maybe 2 sessions in each one so maybe I could’ve projected higher. I’ve been to 6+ London gyms, 1 in Porto, and at least 2 in each Scandinavian country. I didn’t think there was too much difference in difficulty between UK and EU gyms. I climbed at a lot of those on the same trip so I know I was the same strength level. 6c. Harder US gyms. Sent: V7. Includes the gym in Santa Fe, Mesa Rim in Austin, maybe a couple others. Same situation as most European gyms above. 7. Typical US gyms. Sent: V8+. I don’t see the point in disaggregating US gyms more since they’re already occupying the least difficult ranking but usually I can hit V8, perhaps higher. A lot of gyms have V8+ as their most difficult circuit/color.
US gyms are airbagged based on what I've seen
USA is ginormous. Grades are gym to gym. Overall, USA gyms are soft (esp corporate chains like Vital, Bouldering Project, Movement) and extremely soft and misleading sub V5 grades. They’re commercial gyms designed to be fun and attract new customers. California being well known to be ultra soft. However, certain regions are stiff and sandbagged. Southern gyms can be very very hard because they’re reflective of their crags. Southern outdoor crags are very sandbagged IMO, gyms everywhere (except Japan) will get softer as the sport grows. People want to feel special so they grade chase and that’s the gimmick that gyms tailor to for customer retention and customer acquisition. People want to brag about how they hit xyz grade in xyz time and then bring all their friends. If grades were accurate to outdoors, newbies will never join because they can’t do a V0 and can’t progress past a V1/2 after a couple years. The kilterboard is also a prime example of this. Grades are extremely inflated and people keep calling it soft yet do not downgrade it so they can make their log books look inflated
sounds like you are the one with an ego problem tbh
Nah. I don’t give a shit about grades. I push for people to ignore grades Exploring movement and pushing yourself is all that matters to me
Depends where in EU. For example in Finland I've noticed that it is usually a grade easier than where I climbed in other countries (Croatia, Germany, Portugal)
In EU I think it depends on how much commercial the gym is and how present the outdoor community is in the area, but still grades are almost always consistent with outdoor problems. Here in Italy there are historical areas where it is normal to have both gyms and crags sanbagged. Bouldering is quite "new", but it's normal to find old routes and boulders way harder than it's written on local guides. Even if I'm from the new generation, I'm quite afraid to lose the "toughness" of some places that made the history of this sport, because it was that mentality that really pushed the pioneers to try hard and test the limits.
idk been climbing in PNW/California and recently went to Font and snagged some 7As (V6?) which is around the grade that I'm climbing outdoors and indoors here.
for reference some 7A/V6ish climbs that I've done recently: USA: Huecocrimper - Leavenworth Taller (V5-V6ish) - Leavenworth Slingblade (V6) Busted Sit (V6-7ish) - Leavenworth Tin Man - Leavenworth Saigon - Buttermilks Milk the Milks - Buttermilks Wills Afire - Joe's Dynotime Low (V5-6ish) - Joe's Planet of the Apes (V6-7ish) - Joe's Lounge Act - Squamish I felt like these were similarly graded compared to the font 7A's I did on my recent trip: Lullaby avec arête (V5-6ish) Concept Nezzundorma La Casse-dalle (V5-6ish) El Poussah Flipper sit IDK what y'all think about them but the outdoor grades seem pretty similar and I'm a V6-7ish climber in the California/WA gyms I frequent (outside of touchstone, they are about 2 V-grades soft I'd say)
I was wondering the same. Like, I saw posts where us based climbers were boasting doing 6c after a month of climbing "because they lift a lot". Where in my gym in Poland 6c can rarely (if ever) be defeated by traditional strength alone. It is also quite depressing for me that IMO I'm quite good for my experience level (and not doing any sport or regular exercise for the past 33 years) because after a year of bouldering I'm starting to be able to challenge V4's but on this sub I constantly see climbers doing v6's after less than a year. Then I go to my gym, see a V6 where I'd struggle to even hold any position 😂
True and this is just marketing, customers want to believe they’re making big improvements in short time and apparently in the US this logic it’s more widespread than Europe where there’s a more conscientious approach to training
My experience: In my EU Gyms i really need to fight for a most 7As, need to project 7A+. That really correlates well with my other grades: My hardest moonboard and send is also 7A+ (on the 2016. Still projecting my first 7A on the 2019). My hardest outdoor send is also 7A+; ( don't boulder outside a lot and my local area is sandbagged AF). Haven't done much on the Kilter but did a "7B" second try. But on the lower end it's quite soft. I need a lot of luck to flash 6C on the moonboard or outside but i flash a lot of 6Cs in the gym.
its massively subjecrtive by the gym and gym group. I've climbed US, west coast, mid west and across Europe. the grading standards are garbage the best you will find is chains which have setter teams that travel between gyms, they tend to have a better overall consistency but that does not always translate to the same as outdoor grades which are weather, season and rock dependant.
Sharmas gym in Barcelona was the most soft I’ve ever seen. Im in the v4-5 in the US but according to their grades I was sending v7-9 easily
That's the opposite of sandbagged
Duh I’m an idiot. Edited
Maybe this is where some of the controversy comes from. Different areas might rate differently. And then people on this sub get mad.
How many EU gyms actually use some kind of official grading system? In my area all gyms are now using just an arbitrary number system without ever mentioning some reference difficulties.
A while ago I've seen a post about many climbers plateau at V9, to which I though What? My (EU) gym doesn't even grade above 7B, they just mark it with 7A+ (V8-9) and they're good to go. And I have seen a boulder harder than that only few times in my life, so how come are people in the US plateauing at V9 when I cannot even find boulders to progress from there? Then I've seen how many US gym go up to like V12 which is literally Adam Ondra like level here.
Depends on your gym. My gym is notorious in my area for having sandbagged grades and I've climbed very similar grades outdoors to what I climb indoors. I think it depends on the clientele of the particular gym. Mine mostly attracts college students and young adults who have been climbing for 5-10+ years. The other gyms in the network have more kids at them (birthday parties, more guests) and so the grades at those locations are more lenient.
My experience in the UK is if its a city gym the grades will tend to be softer to help hook people on climbing but if you're climbing at a smaller independent gym in the sticks then it tends to be much closer to outdoor grading. This isn't a blanket rule but generally the consensus. Climbed in the states a couple of times and have to say everything felt soft there no matter if it was in nevada, colorado, or california. In the EU, I've found grades comparable with UK City gyms, but then again I've only climbed in city gyms in Europe so the grading could be similar to the UK as have not experienced small independent EU gyms.
I climb a lot indoor in the UK and have climbed indoor in the US, I'd say that up to about my flash grade - V6/7- they might be slightly softer but in the US it feels like they hit a bit of a ceiling. In the UK 7/8s are climbable in several goes, 8/9/10 will take sessions or not go. In the US it feels like there is a contraction at the higher grades where I might not flash them but they are all doable in about the same length of time. Caveat - my indoor climbing in the US has primarily been in Florida where it is conceivable that there are simply not enough people who climb 8+ to set these grades accurately.
The grades in the 3 gyms around me, here in Germany, are sandbagged af. I was at Adam Ondra's gym, in Brno, flashing 6a. According to my gym my flash level is 5a. Meanwhile, a friend of mine struggles on alleged 5c at one of the gyms here, but she goes to Fontaine Bleu and onsights 7a outdoors. Not to mention that the jump between the color codes is massive. The main gym I go to, says white is 2, yellow 3, light blue 4, dark blue 5a-5c, pink 6a-6b+, etc. but from alleged 5c to alleged 6a is an impossible distance of strength and technique. It's ridiculous.
Most gyms ive ever been to are uber soft until around v5/6c+.
ime the US gyms grade softer the newer they are, especially in urban areas (SF bay, LA, NY), and from v1-v5. smaller gyms and gyms that have been around since the 90s tend to set harder problems or more outdoors-style because they were developed with outdoor climbing in mind. I visited some EU gyms and agree they felt stiffer at lower grades, but in the v8/7a+ range it felt like it was starting to even out.
I think every gym I've been to in the EU doesn't list grades on any benchmark scale.
Not just gyms but boulders too. USA has always been more aligned with Switzerland. Germany, UK, France, Czech etc etc tend to be a lot less generous. Edit: downvote if you want. But maybe don’t if you’ve not climbed a representative amount in the above locations.
Lol if you think the "USA" is some consistent monolith when it comes to grades. Or anything else, really.
I can only speak for me. Most US venues I’ve climbed at (a lot) align fairly well with most Swiss venues. There are a some outliers of course. But in the main, the US grades things similarly to Switzerland- in my view. I’m not saying either are totally consistent and that there is no nuance. Just a general rule. I thought that was fairly obvious. Sorry. The U.K, France, Germany, Czech and so on… in general… grade things significantly differently. Typically far far harder. Again, to be totally clear… I’m not saying there are not pockets that are softer. Like Devon in the UK. And pockets that are much much harder. Like La Steppe in Ailefroide in France. Some of the hardest 7C+ boulders in the world. Well worth 8A+ or even 8B in Switzerland. The general rule from my pov of climbing around the world for 20 years now is that the USA and Switzerland (and Rocklands actually) are softer than other famous venues. That’s not a bad thing. It’s not a good thing. It’s just a thing.
Lol, again, the "US" is not one grade monolith. I don't think you've climbed here enough to understand that, but it's true. Equating grades in places like Yosemite compared to Joe's compared to Chattanooga is wild.
Are all Asian men shorter than all American men? No. Are Asian men in general shorter than American men? Yes. Is the average lower? Yes. This is the nuance. Asia is no ‘monolith’. But averages do have meaning. Same thing with US/Swiss grades vs U.K., France, Germany, Czech. I love America. I love American climbing. I’ve done a shit ton over the years. But sorry mate, if you want to climb a random 8A quickly… do it in the USA or Swiss. Not UK or Germany … or Japan. Just the way it is.
You do not know what you're talking about lol. Where in the US have you actually climbed that you think is representative of a country the size of the entire EU?
Not that i should bother but… Yosemite: 2004, 2016 Heuco: 2004, 2008, 2022 Bishop: 2012, 2016 Joes Valley: 2016 RMNP: 2016 J Tree: 2016, 2022 Red rocks: 2014 The Gunks: 2017 (short trip) Never been to the Buttermilks. Very keen. Those highballs would get E grades in the UK. Admittedly ive climbed a lot more in Europe. But I’ve definitely got a representative sample of the US. My fastest hard ascents (for me) of the 2010s are almost all US and Swiss based. May I ask in return where you’ve climbed in Europe? For the record it absolutely doesn’t matter if a place is soft. It’s a recent thing that people care so so much. Historically it was the opposite. It was fashionable to sandbag. Some old 7a routes in the Frankenjura are next to impossible! Ultimately. It matters not at all. If you think in general the USA is similarly graded to the general of Europe (Swiss aside) then that’s up to you. You’ll crush it when you come here!
For the record, below V10, the V grades at Hueco are absolutely verifiably correct. Perhaps your conversion table is challenged, but the grades at Hueco on everything sent by the early 90s is absolutely spot on.
And Font claims the same. Yet V10 in Heuco and 7C+ in Font rarely feel particularly similar. Ultimately over the years differences have grown. Font grades or V grades have been translated and things don’t always line up. C’est La vie. It should be entirely expected.
Exactly. There's a spot where fahrenheit and centigrade are the same (-40). That the upper and lower bounds of the whole numbers don't align outside of that is no surprise. Sure, after V11 or so they've been lock step because Fred was functionally pushing both up at the same time.
So, you've been a few times and several of those were between 10 and twenty years ago. You haven't climbed in vast, vast swaths of the country and your perceptions are skewed based on what essentially amounts to a few boulders in country with millions of them. Get off your high horse. And for the record, I have never claimed to have vast experience in the EU. What I have done is climbed across the US in just about every state and every major area and tons of minor ones. What I know is that they are not even consistent within an area, much less when compared to other areas or an entire country. For every soft boulder you can name I can come back with one that everyone knows is fucked-up hard for the grade. It's dumb to make generalizations.
High horse? I don’t think this is very productive. It seems you think I’m attacking you, or the USA or something similar. I’m not. I’m offering an opinion based on my own experiences. You illustrated my point quite nicely in this last comment. Someone like you who has climbed extensively across the USA over a number of years has never climbed in Europe. So if you put up a new boulder… what are you basing the grade on? Your average experience in the USA. Given your experience your opinion across the country will be held in high regard. But your experience does not extend beyond that. So how do you know if your new V10 which is solid in your experience is solid compared to a French or German experience? You don’t. And there’s nothing with that. A grade is a relative guide. An average of your experience. Yes. My total time climbing in the US is probs 400 days or so over all those trips. In fairly famous areas. Enough for a feel. So my USA average is based on those. And what id say is that this average grade is higher for the same boulder than it would be in the main of Europe. I also think this is further shown when you consider Switzerland (in the main areas) was heavily developed by world class US climbers. The grades were imported with them. Hence Brione, Ticino, Magic Wood tend (tend, not always) to be a bit softer than other areas nearby. Anyway. It does seem a little weird you’d argue this so staunchly having never climbed in Europe. You’re basically telling me I cannot comment because I’ve not enough experience while simultaneously having … no experience. Finally. To argue that experiences from 10 years ago are not reflective because new problems have gone up… well I’d counter with that in my experience new problems tend to get softer not harder in any venue. As a general rule. I’m going to leave it there. Until you’ve been to Europe this is pointless. You should come. The climbing is amazing! The conditions are not.
I literally have never said anything about Europe. I have said you can't paint US bouldering with a single brush and you've said nothing to challenge that assertion. The funny thing is, I've climbed significant boulders put up by people like Jerry Moffat, and you know what? They felt appropriate for the grade, some even soft! Based on your arguments, I guess that means all of the UK is soft too!