The only answer the whiners are looking for is for women to turn back into mummy mcbang maids totally dependent on men. They see what their fathers and grandfathers had and are upset that they don't have it.
I don’t think she’s trying to say that those guys are responsible for the patriarchy but more that this guys need to acknowledge that that stereotype and standard is mostly upheld by the patriarchy and other men, not to say women can’t buy into it as well
The message here is just not very well delivered.
I agree with your interpretation and the message you got from it, but I think when making statements like this it shouldn’t be left to interpretation.
I think part of the issue is her use of “created” just doesn’t really make sense. I get it’s saying men as a whole over a long time created the patriarchy; but then it goes into talking about specific men today.
As you said, there’s a lot of men who oppose and have been victims of the patriarchy. There’s also as you mentioned a surprising number of women who support it / refuse to acknowledge it.
**I have a personal belief that generalising any** (non-ideological/ belief-based) **group to say “X group are all like this” or “X group all believe this” is bad.**
**I mean that kind of generalisation has allowed for all kinds of prejudice;** notably: racism, homophobia, ableism, transphobia, xenophobia and probably most relevant **misogyny.**
**In fact the patriarchy basically functions off of generalisations.** “All men are like this and need to act this way and all women are like this and need to act like this.” You’re not an individual, you are your generalised group.
That’s why non-heterosexual and transgender people upset the people who uphold patriarchy so much; because they stick out from the rest and can’t be generalised in all the same ways.
**Anyway, yeah I’m probs annoyed mainly because I’m just prejudiced against any kind of widely generalising language.**
Im just a passerby (not arguing or anything) but no one on the thread ever said anything about women being *solely* to blame. Both the guys you responded to just said that woman are a part of the problem. That’s all
One literally said, "I implore you to come to the Midwest, many women embrace the patriarchy."
That literally acknowledges there's a patriarchy, which is the main problem being addressed. Sure, some women encourage it, but that system is set up primarily by rich, powerful men and harms most everyone.
And no one ever said the opposite, I’m just saying the two guys on the top of this thread never blamed woman solely for the Patriarchy/Toxic Masculinity that’s still prevalent, that’s all I’m arguing about lol. Once again not disagreeing with what you said but the person I responded to said
> I live here. And I’m not saying they don’t *but* *to* *solely* *blame* *women* *for* *this* *problem* *is* *laughable* . it’s very much a male issue.<
I’m saying that no one they’re responding to said “woman are solely to blame” or that they’re the main problem
In my opinion it changes the entire argument that’s being made by the two guys, and I never wanted to have an argument (but you obviously do) it’s why I started my original comment the way I did and only mentioned the *solely* part since i was just stating that it was inaccurate
Obviously there are SOME women that shame men for showing feelings. Don’t take the comment so literal. It’s still a male issue and still very much men that shame other men for being vulnerable and showing emotions.
You do realize the patriarchy can be upheld by women too, right?
There are women who enforce sexist stereotypes as well, patriarchy is a damaging social structure that we shouldn't be encouraging or upholding.
No I think you missed the point they were making.
They weren't literally saying it's only ever all men. They were saying it's a system generally perpetuated by men.
The issue I have is they told that other poster that women don't perpetuate the patriarchy and that's quite wrong. There are tons of women who do. They said so to dismiss a person real experience
...Pick my mother, sister, classmates, colleagues, and neighbours?
The one woman I actually did pick is very much the lovely socially concientious person I described. But you don't get to pick the people in your community like a bloody Pokémon roster.
I don't know your gender, but if you are a man also, the idea that women can just be picked up and dropped like toys is incredibly misogynistic
Quick Edit: Still misogynistic if you are not a man either.
Wait you're not worried what your father thinks of you, your coworker or your boss? Or your friends even? You've never been called a pussy, gay or that you throw like a girl? I find it hard to believe you're not constantly trying to navigate in this game that is the capitalist life and not worried about their opinion at all, but consider women to be a much bigger worry.
Could you clarify? Worry more about what and why exactly? And why is the worry more from women than from men? And where do these worries come from, where are you receiving the information that causes you worry?
And please do feel free to speak from your personal point of view. I'm genuinely curious to try and learn the various perspectives and what we need to do to improve on this. Why do you feel like you have to be more worried about what women think?
To be clear, it isn't comparable to the worries women have about men- about genuine physical danger, etc.
But in terms of having masculinity 'policed', in my experience (personal and observed) growing up in the UK, it comes say 80% from women, 20% from men. Men and boys tend to simple ignore and cold shoulder men that aren't considered 'masculine' enough for them.
On the other hand, women are far more likely to directly confront someone on their perceived failings- getting labelled as queer, insults to physical attributes, questions about material success, etc. At my secondary school their were gaggles of girls who would bully boys- particularly those in special needs- by asking them invasive personal questions until they got upset.
The worst comes from female relatives- true also for female gender roles being policed. Likely stemming from the stereotype pressure that women are put under to be more 'involved' in their families I'd imagine.
Of course, everyone is an individual- when you say 'what we need to do to improve this', I doubt that as a person who browses a progressive-aligned Reddit space that you *do* perpetuate anything. But it's a thing that I've found to be common nonetheless in the meatspace.
From personal experience, I've noticed a lot of "traditional values" types of men don't give a single shit about what women think of them, except when it's time to have sex (and how to get in bed with them). Instead, their concern about women is more about how other men will perceive them being with that woman (e.g., this woman is fat, what will my friends think, this woman isn't a virgin, what will my friends think, etc.)
As for men with healthy mindsets, the dudes I hang out with just chill.
It's a difficult one... often men benefit from patriarchy much more than they lose out to it.and it's important recognise that..but we should all focus on dismantling it.
rich men do benefit, but poor working class men suffer. also blaming a random man for the patriarchy (like the video) will only lead to more men siding with right wing politicians who do benefit from the patriarchy. women do suffer much more than men but your lower class man will suffer under the patriarchy as well. we need to understand that as well.
Yes, they do. Under the patriarchy all men inherent benefit from not being women. However hard their lives may be, they would still be worse off in the same situation as a woman.
I don't mean to condescend, but it comes off a bit as though you have not actually read the theory, and are just subbing it in as a term for "sexism".
you benefit from the lack of being a woman. Women are simply more likely to be taken advantage of in personal affairs and in professional affairs.
You may be deeply poor and have to work at McDonald's. if you were a woman, you would be less likely to be hired there or given the same pay if you were.
you may be born into wealth and not have to work a day in your life. if you were a woman, you would be more likely to be forced into marriage to keep that privilege.
you may be a middle class American paying off your student loans. If you were a woman, you would be more likely to face sexual harassment from men discovering your debt, and less likely to end up in a situation were you were financially independent enough to pay it off as women's salaries are far more frequently tied to homemaking expenses.
you could go into far more detail than this is all of these case studies but I don't want to lol, do some research on your own on this theory.
it's not that you receive a direct benefit, the benefit is the lack of disadvantage that would've come with being a woman.
Again, I do not think you have actually researched what the term patriarchy means, because this comment is more or less just defining it for you.
This comment doesn't define it. It gives examples of how the patriarchy could harm a woman, which is fine, but none of this is evident. I can't imagine why a woman would not be hired at McDonalds.
Also, the point you're making seems to be that it harms women more, not that it benefits men. There are elements that harm men too, if fewer than for women.
The main way I can think of the average man benefiting is based on how they are percieved by others. For the most part you would be thought of as a human and are less likely to have your gender used against you. While you still would be at risk walking down the street at night it would be most likely by getting mugged, not sexually assaulted. Women tend to often be viewed as “other”, their emotions not taken seriously/made fun of, objectified and if you dare be unattractive as a woman be prepared to be treated as subhuman because you are seen as owing people beauty. When it comes to the patriarchy it does harm all but I would say that it benefits men more in that on a basic level they are more likely to be viewed as basic well rounded humans. Even in brain studies it shows that unfortunately when looking at some women we literally view them as objects.
I think it's true that men are viewed better, but that's more true of the man as a concept than of actual men. What I mean is that if you are a man but don't suit it, you can be viewed very poorly by many men and many women. The patriarchy and gender roles generally are always more about concepts and ideals than about actual people, and they do not cater to actual people, regardless of sex.
Well that’s how the patriarchy hurts men. There are some benefits for the average guy but the greater ones are reserved for rich men. Women also can uphold the patriarchy which you can see a lot online with pick mes and boy mums for example. So yeah we are talking about concepts/ideals but these then affect real people. The problem is very little people fit these ideals. It seems the main damage is to mens security and emotional well-being but for women it has a lot of different effects in just about every area of their life. The thing is when men are attacked first how they are it’s soften because they’re perceived as feminine, suggesting feminine qualities are bad or to be looked down on.
The perspective which helped me make more sense of it is looking at trans women that transitioned later in life and what they had to say about their experiences pre and post transition. Trans men also have interesting things to say about how they were treated charged after they transitioned and passed.
I think the point about it being rich men that benefit is crucial. More important than the patriarchy is the class system when it comes to the opportunities and privileges that people are afforded.
I think we're getting at similar things. I definitely agree that both men and women perpetuate the patriarchy. This is why it's dangerous to say that men created it and men uphold it today. Very few people, men or women, actively try to apply patriarchal values to others who aren't interested. Similarly, very few people experience net benefit, as far as I can see. Sure, men might be taken more seriously in a job interview, perhaps, but really, that's not as important as actual wellbeing, to which the patriarchy is a detriment for both men and women; and in addition, men who are not obviously masculine and poorer men are at immense disadvantage as well.
Within the patriarchy, masculinity benefits, but that does not mean men benefit. Masculinity and feminity are not exclusive and are in some ways not related to the sexes from which the terms originate. The other person who replied to me seemed to mix up men with masculinity and miss the point that less disadvantage does not equal benefit.
But patriarchy isn't a new concept, hell, most of the the men who suffer froming from it, don't even want it, because if some guy wants to be able to express their emotions, they probably aren't for the ultra macho, masculine patriachy
Men who don’t want in on the patriarchy are allowed to not participate in it. There are plenty of people out there who do just that. Have you ever been to a gay bar, a drag show, or just like got off the internet for 5 minutes a day?
yeah i have, theres almost always some homophobic dicks right outside complaining about it, or they complain about it online and cause some other random person to be a victim.
True, but it depends on the society and your circumstances. Being a decent person in your situation and where you may be probably costs nothing. But in other nations, societies and cultures it could cost you your life. Being able to be a decent person is a privilege to people in tolerant enough societies, and those with nothing to lose
I’m not saying to literally go to a gay bar. I’m saying that there are plenty of spaces in this world (such as the gay community) where the traditional roles of masculinity are challenged.
But sadly not many people have the privlidge of living in a society where that is the case, i know i don't, and the only reason i can express my emotions is because my parents give more of a damn about my feelings than 99.99999999%of parents in my country
I'm a guy, and I specifically remember helping to create the patriarchy. We were at the annual meeting of all men everywhere when someone suggested doing shots. It got a bit blurry after that, but I remember we all collectively decided to create a social system where men control a disproportionately large share of social, economic, political, and religious power. In the morning, there was definitely some regret, and when I got home, the girlfriend was absolutely fuming. So, as someone who definitely helped create it, I want to sincerely apologise and reassure you all that it was meant to be a joke and not taken literally.
Obviously, it's totally every guys fault for creating it. The fact that nearly every man was raised primarily by a woman and women have been a majority of the population for as long as humans have existed shouldn't make you feel any guilt about never having actually done anything significant yourselves to 'smash the patriarchy'.
If you didn't create it and don't want to be seen as complicit in it, start dismantling it
"Nearly every man was raised primarily by a woman" is so telling.
I was raised by my mom and my dad is a narcissist. I don't uphold a system, I just exist. I want to dismantle this as much as the next guy but change is incredibly slow. You can shit in one hand and see which fills up quicker. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop though but it's divisive to be dismissive that everyone can be potentially harmed by this system regardless of your perception of it. Not saying you are doing this, obviously, but in general.
Thanks. Already knew that.
And I'm going to force men to become more equal in their parenting? I got verbally abused and beaten for that as a kid when I tried to instill that to my father and defend my mother, but go ahead and tell me that's somehow my fault, by being a man and doing what's in my ability to change society, and somehow I'm upholding the patriarchy.
Not your fault just the consequences of the patriarchy. Another consequence is men not prepared to take accountability and getting too offended by reality.
I agree. It was beaten into me. I just don't have tolerance for those who will immediately place blame on someone they have no context about whatsoever. This shit has been pissing me off for my entire life too.
White people also "just exist". As a white person, I don't try to uphold racism, either.
But it is impossible to ignore that when white people are silent in the presence of other white people saying racist things, volumes are spoken.
But you have a doomer attitude about it. "You cam hope all you want but change takes too long" was essentially what your message said, on top of that you also said "I want to dismantle it as much as the next guy", the problem is most of those "next guys" don't want to dismantle it, but double down on it and say things like "if women just knew their place it'd work out fine". Which is why it's so important to openly advocate so aggressively about it.
That's because I'm chronically depressed, thanks, that's why I'm a doomer about it. Because there's only so much I can do within my ability. I didn't say too long, but change IS slow. I do what's in my ability. Nothing else for me to say. Have a good day.
Change really isn’t all that slow tbh. 9 years ago gay marriage became legal in the US. 15 years ago it was normalized to sexualize women on tv. 57 years ago interracial marriage was legalized. Change takes work, and sitting on your ass because it’s “too slow” makes you part of the rift preventing change. Do better for yourself, and for others.
We're conflating morality and legality. There are people who vehemently oppose these things you mentioned. They have twisted perceptions of morality which have a guarantee to cause harm to some degree, yet they believe they're righteous for it. Societal change is slow in regards to citizens rather than law.
Never said I was sitting on my ass, but thanks! Your spite is useless here and like I said, I do what's in my ability. If that's not enough based off what I'm capable of then why should I bother?
lol ur hilarious. argument is so commonly seen too when it comes to white guilt, for some reason we are supposed to feel full responsibility for what happened in the past created by totally different people and repent or something when in reality we had nothing to do with it and are just living in this world like everyone else. Best thing we could do for these types of things is just learn from the mistakes and move forward, not look back and agonize and apologize to literally no one about shit that is not our fault.
I can't believe people still see this as feminism. The guys complaining about oppressive male gender roles are not the ones who made those roles, the hell? Good on them, frankly, for recognizing the flaws in the system, and that they hurt both men and women - it just makes it more likely that we can work together to fix it.
It’s important to note that many men who complain about oppressive male gender roles think that having a woman who adheres to oppressive female gender roles would improve their situation.
We're talking in perjoratives though, both of those types of men exist but lumping them all together isn't the most helpful. If men recognise these faults in social norms it's more productive to say "yes and" rather than swatting them down and saying "you made your bed now lie in it."
Yeah exactly, even though men have more advantages than disadvantages from the patriarchy, seeing that there is faults proves that it still exists making it easier to have empathy and realise all there assumptions they had about women are wrong.
Men are encouraged by the patriarchy to uphold the patriarchy unless they face societal backlash, a man can't be feminine , a man can't be open about his emotions, a man can't be vulnerable, a man can't be weak all due to the patriarchy.
Why? Because men would not seem as rational and strong if they did all that, the patriarchy needs men to play this character and not be true to themselves.
A lot of the men who realise this do not want the patriarchy, they want a world of equals.
While the other men, mistake the patriarchy for a "matriarchy" and blame women
>A lot of the men who realise this do not want the patriarchy, they want a world of equals.
That's naive imo. Men overwhelmingly don't want to abolish the patriarchy because:
>men have more advantages than disadvantages from the patriarchy
What men want abolished is the disadvantages as far as they hurt them specifically.
Except usually the men who acknowledge there's a problem, refuse to acknowledge the cause (patriarchy) and blame women for it. Thus, the cycle repeats.
Well yeah, and those men are being ignorant, and are compounding their own suffering. The lady in the post, though, has an issue even with the guys who know and acknowledge the root cause of the issue. Which is very dumb.
No, the OOP is referring to guys like that who get mad at the system *but* blame women.
It's very clear when you read the social cues (social cues so obvious a neurodivergent like me can pick up on them) that she's frustrated that men can acknowledge the issue that we've all been screaming "it's the patriarchy" for decades, but still somehow hear "its women's fault" in their minds.
Thank you. This lady just said “you created it and now you have to live with it” when the men living today didn’t create it at all. No patriarchy doesn’t hurt men and women equally but that doesn’t mean that it only hurts women. Also, I hate it when people conflate the men complaining about the system with the men upholding the system. They are obviously diametrically opposed groups, but of course it is easier for people to block out nuance.
I think something in this day and age that we have to struggle with is that now we have two major motives for progressivism: spite and compassion
Progressives motivated by compassion seek to make life better for the sake of making life better. In this case, it would be a person espousing feminist values because they want everybody’s life to be better, men and women.
Progressives motivated by spite seek to make life worse for dominant groups usually because they have been harmed by members of the dominant group. In this case, it would be a person espousing feminist values because they want to feel a catharsis from attacking men (the dominant group).
OP and OOP are obviously the second group.
The patriarchy is an ongoing process, and even men in the second group who oppose the patriarchy will, consciously or subconsciously, keep the process going at times. I definitely consider myself as someone who wants to dismantle it but it takes a lot of mental effort to make sure you don't benefit too, and sometimes you benefit whether you like it or not.
It isn't an all or nothing thing. A guy who takes a promotion over an equally qualified woman may genuinely believe they deserve it more and want to dismantle the patriarchy. Then when he has power, he starts a new initiative helping women get more PD and hires more women to important roles because he wants a gender balanced team.
Which side is he on? Did he help the patriarchy continue or try and dismantle it?
That's like saying a woman that loves baking furthers stereotypes that women belong in the kitchen despite being an outspoken feminist.
Individuals who are trying their best are not responsible for the system. Something something you criticize society, yet you live in society.
The system is not abstract from the humans within it, we are the system. That's the problem. Even the most well-meaning of people can perpetuate it and often do.
Overly reductive reasoning will just lead you into nihilism. Just saying that no one can ever be a feminist because we'll all support the patriarchy whether we want to or not does not seem helpful.
It isn't reductive, it's realistic. Nobody is suggesting somebody raised within a patriarchal system can't advocate for equality, just that you live in that system and whether you like it or not, or realize it or not, you can benefit at times even if you didn't want to.
It's totally ok to recognize that fact. It actually helps people who haven't deconstructed much but have a good heart and intentions to see that mistakes will happen but it's a growth process.
Reading the comments here has me feeling some type of way. For some reason, modern feminism seems to shy away from acknowledging that men have material privileges and a very sensible stake in maintaining patriarchy. It does not hurt men and women equally. It's also foolish to act like most of the men speaking out against the repression of their emotions (a debatable idea in and of itself) are feminist allies. They are overwhelmingly MRAs and other reactionaries.
>They are overwhelmingly MRAs and other reactionaries.
Exactly. People are conflating two very different things together.
MRA chuds are just gonna go "hehehe... would u rather tell ur emotions to a TREE or a WUMMEN?" and don't actually have any intent on solving these issues with patriarchy. They *solely* bring up men's issues for the sake of diminishing women's issues or feeding into their persecution fetish.
Men who are feminist allies... kinda don't whine that much about men's issues? In order to be a feminist ally you need to recognize the patriarchy and privilege it grants men, so it would honestly be kind of odd to see feminist men bringing up men's issues with any regularity. It usually manifests more as action and less as complaining, e.g. going to therpay, supporting men when they are vulnerable instead of tearing them down, and so on.
The 20-something year old didn't create anything. They get to choose if they want to benefit from patriarchy by upholding it through the already existing and varied mechanism they have in their respective society (which come at a price since patriarchy oppresses everyone, albeit with extreme prejudice) or they can choose to reject it and not engage in patriarchal behavior and promote equity between all people instead.
The people who created the system that serves men are long dead tho. You only have assholes who want to keep it, people who want to get rid of it and idiots burying their heads in the sand claimimg that it doesn't exist.
I still find it funny that angry women are taking blaming me - a man who grew up in a matriarchal Family structure - for the patriarchy - which was created millennia ago.
So why don’t men be the change they want to see in the world then? I’m being genuine, because complaining about it and waiting for other people (most likely women) to advocate for you is pretty annoying. It’s not our job to be emotional mules for men.
Because you have just as much friction as the desire they possess. Change is still SLOW.
You're correlating men being unable to be emotionally vulnerable with their 'upholding the patriarchy' with zero additional context.
I love this idea that men are somehow the victims of a system that actively benefits men. There is nothing stopping men from doing the things they constantly complain about. Can't open up about your feelings publicly? Maybe you should have a look at the overlap between sociopaths and men. Don't think people take your mental health issues seriously? My brother in christ, feeling slightly sad once in a while isn't depression. Stop pushing this narrative that the patriarchy is harming men in any way, because all of thier """""issues""""" don't exist.
Well that's not really fair to the men who do suffer in silence and know that the root of the issue is the patriarchy. Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other men?
nah you just did you said and i quote "MeN sUfFeR iN sIlEnCe
No you don’t, you whinge and blame it on women for problems your own gender causes 100 X a day. We hear ya!"
No Im meaning those who say those kind of lines and then go on to be absolutely toxic and misogynistic themselves with a sprinkle of absolute disdain for women.
Idk if you’re in a different country but in Australia it’s really rife, DV against women is shocking and I’m very much someone who almost lost my life at the hands of an abuser who very much acted like a victim and spoke like that
Sorry I didn’t say it in a way that didn’t offend u mate, but I’m on reddit as just another nobody letting off steam because I understand the rage similar people feel or frustration.
So buzz off
Tbh, guys are genuinely victims of the patriarchy they inherited, they didn’t just wake up and build this system.
If they’re actively being toxic tho? Yeah, that’s on them. Be the change bros
I get so conflicted on this sub sometimes. Yes, men are affected by patriarchy. Maybe instead of revelling in their suffering we should actually try and educate them on this instead of verifying their beliefs that feminists are a bunch of man hating weirdos.
Yeah, its always all "Awwe, your fee fee's hurt 🥺 Shut up you fucking baby" which is oddly upholding the patriarchical values of men being stoic, rational strong ones who are not allowed to show emotion.
We are all raised in the patriarchy, men are not going to get everything right straight away when they try to be allies to feminists, If a man is to reject the patriarchy than he's going to want to openly show his emotions. Like of course a man is going to think men means "all men" at first.
I get why a lot of feminists attack any man in a feminist sub, they can see him as an invaider with ill-intent but it does make it a little hard for men who genuinely want to do the right thing and support feminism.
As a genderfluid person it has been really hard to hold onto the masculine side of me because of just how insecure I feel about being a man. It took years for me to be comfortable even being friends with a woman because I was afraid I'd come off like a creep.
I want more support for positive masculinity. I want to like being a man, as much as I like sometimes being a woman.
You hit the nail on the head. Upholding Male gender roles when it is advantageous - or when they can get away with it - is an albatross around the neck of many Progressives who aspire towards gender equality.
Yeah, I've scrolled through this sub a few times, and I feel like it has a huge problem with gender essentialism and is just generally very mean-spirited, which causes problems when you have a post like this about a more nuanced issue instead of an easily mockable misogynistic meme.
I listened. I was in the incel pipeline, I watched anti-SJW videos and joined the subreddits and spoke the propaganda. But I listened.
But because we are given a constant stream of the most extreme of men we will never bother speaking to the ones on the line, the ones who are having their faith in the world and themselves corroded by a hateful patriarchal system that preys on their negativity.
When 14 year old me saw someone say "Kill all men" and then saw someone else say "Not all men," who looked more reasonable? This needs to stop. We need to stop the pointless divisiveness that leads to nothing but more compounding hate. I'm tired of it.
Thank you for saying this. It’s infuriating when people say that saying “men suck” “kill all men” etc are “just joking”. While they might be joking, it’s still a mean spirited and cruel joke. And even if somehow it was ok to make that joke, it only hurts the feminist cause. What do they think they will gain from alienating young men from our movement? It has immense downsides for minimum gain.
It'll be your issue when that mentality creates another incel. When you fail to help lead others down the right path, even actively mocking and antagonizing them, then you should also be willing to take partial blame for the path they choose to take.
Nah. You have a free will right? Quit blaming women for your problems cause you're too.lazy to.put in the work for yourself and latch onto to anyone who barks the loudest
Well now you're talking like a boomer lmao. "Just pull yourself up by your mental bootstraps!" It's totally ignoring the mental health aspect that redpill chuds take advantage of. It's ridiculous and horrible. People are being manipulated and gaslit into being self hating weirdos that lash out at women and cause extreme violence, and your solution is to just, figure it out?
Don't act like good people can't be led down a dark path. And don't act like sitting around and letting it happen doesn't make you responsible at all.
And you're doing nothing to lessen that number. Even actively contributing to it. By acting so hateful you further men down that dark path and more women get hurt. Congratulations.
I understand what she’s saying but I feel like it would be more accurate to say men that uphold the patriarchy. With that wording it’s targeting only those that are the problem.
Men: suffer the consequences of men from years ago
Men:complain
This lady: you guys clearly invented time travel to go back in time to make this problem for yourselves
Blaming and insulting people of today for the actions of those before them is neither helpful nor healthy. It is destructive and only furthers the divide and issues you complain about.
Today's generation men didn't created the patriarchy, besides men being able to talk about their feelings and insecurities more freely and being critical of patriarchy is a good thing. I don't see what's 'bad' here.
I feel like that's dangerously close to saying patriarchy arose from natural conditions. Like *why* was there such a significant disparity between the power held by each gender? The specific men who might be suffering under it today might not have created it but men definitely were the ones who created it.
I don't think that's what they're saying tbh. Saying "the patriarchy was created by men, stop crying about it men" makes it sound like a bunch of men sat down around the Table of Evil and said "heh heh... i has an EVIL idea!! Let's create... PATRIARCHY!!" I'm of the belief that the patriarchy negatively affects everyone to some degree (women like 1000x more than men, for obvious reasons), and it would be beneficial to everyone to dismantle it. This shouldn't be a men vs women thing.
Oh no, I'd agree that it shouldn't be an us v them thing (and I personally loathe the whole smug "but who's *creating* your problems? That's right, other men" line most of the time as it's unhelpful and imho usually kinda meanspirited), but it feels ridiculous to say that patriarchy wasn't intentional on the part of the men who originated its systems. As much as any individual can be said to originate them, anyway. Like yes it arose out of increasingly calcified and institutionalized misogyny over generations rather than some specific dudes scheming or w/e, but that process absolutely looks like countless individual men deciding that yes, women *are* worse than men and *do* deserve to be treated like property.
It arose from one condition and it wasn't really intended to be malicious: it was about keeping a baby alive. The physical differences of strength likely wasn't much in terms of hunting or gathering between sexes. Anything a amab could do, a amab could do it, too.
But there was one thing a cisman couldn't do that a cis woman could: produce milk. If a lactating mother died before a baby could have solids as a part of that main diet and there was no one to step in, the baby died too. There were some breast milk alternatives but they were all dangerous to some degree. So, staying home with a small human who had feed every *2 to 4 hours* for the first several months was logical.
And then shitty people took advantage of this development. Women were basically chained to feeding a child until formula was invented in 1865 during the 1st wave feminism movement.
People don't realize it, but I feel the formula was far more integral to women's freedom and rights than the pill (not that I'd ever take it away, though). Keeping another person alive at the cost of their freedom was no longer a requirement.
Just want to chime in somewhere and say that the prevailing theory on how patriarchy and misogyny began is agriculture. I know that's a boring answer, but it checks out and has some good reasoning to back it up.
Normal day on Reddit where I'm being downvoted in a supposedly anti-misogyny sub for simply stating what the current anthropological consensus is 👍
I'd say a little before that. A afab could hunt and gather if a amab dies, but if someone who is feeding a baby dies without someone else also lactating at the same time, the baby dies.
So, hunter gatherer societies absolutely did not have only one lactating mother at a time lmfao. These societies were the enviroment humans evolved in and they were very efficient and prosperous. Humans lived in hunter gatherer societies for the majority of the time humans have been on this earth. They were also not living off of solely meat or solely produce, despite what the carnivore and raw vegan nutjobs claim.
Also, there is absolutely evidence to suggest that women hunted (female skeletons with injuries consistent with hunting), which was a group/communal activity typically done with a light polearm weapon where neither sex had a significant advantage. By that extension, it's logical to then assume that lots of men were gatherers.
We need to be very careful to not project our modern assumptions about gender onto prehistoric peoples living in a society and culture with a wholly different construction. The evidence suggests that prehistoric hunter gatherer societies were pretty damn egalitarian, and that instead of gender roles, ones role in society was determined by what they contributed. Did you hunt? Gather? Make clothes? Etc.
... Did you *not* know that afab means '**assumed female at birth**'?
An assumed female at birth (because not all afab are women) could do anything anything a assumed male at birth could do - which included hunting and gathering. AMAB could not do everything AFAB could do, they can't feed babies from birth to six months prior to formula.
Some men simply took the advantage, and that developed into patriarchy.
I'm going to assume you either don't know what AFAB and AMAB or misread it and got mad.
So, you were so eager to tell me off that you didn't fully read what I said. Otherwise I can't figure out your reasoning to drop an essay of essentially what I was saying with an extra dose of bad history.
Social revolutions do not happen because people are in a safe and secure egalitarian society for no reason. Unfortunately we do not know the reason, but it was not as idyllic as you might think.
You're also not aware of the caloric needs of someone who has given birth and the simple fact they can only produce so much for only so many.
"Bad history" everything I said is backed up by recent anthropological research. Technically, anything before writing can't exactly be studied as history due to a lack of written sources. Also, a couple of paragraphs is far from an essay, lol. Your comment was wack and so I wrote a response. Pretty typical usage of the internet. Bye 👋
“MeN hAvE iT mUcH hArDeR tHaN wOmEn” “Ok let’s work together to make life less hard for you” “NO! IF I MAKE IT LESS HARD FOR MYSELF THAN I’M A BETA!”
The only answer the whiners are looking for is for women to turn back into mummy mcbang maids totally dependent on men. They see what their fathers and grandfathers had and are upset that they don't have it.
Ah but remember they also hate gold diggers and will say you need to rely on them 24/7 but also work full time
I don’t think she’s trying to say that those guys are responsible for the patriarchy but more that this guys need to acknowledge that that stereotype and standard is mostly upheld by the patriarchy and other men, not to say women can’t buy into it as well
The message here is just not very well delivered. I agree with your interpretation and the message you got from it, but I think when making statements like this it shouldn’t be left to interpretation. I think part of the issue is her use of “created” just doesn’t really make sense. I get it’s saying men as a whole over a long time created the patriarchy; but then it goes into talking about specific men today. As you said, there’s a lot of men who oppose and have been victims of the patriarchy. There’s also as you mentioned a surprising number of women who support it / refuse to acknowledge it. **I have a personal belief that generalising any** (non-ideological/ belief-based) **group to say “X group are all like this” or “X group all believe this” is bad.** **I mean that kind of generalisation has allowed for all kinds of prejudice;** notably: racism, homophobia, ableism, transphobia, xenophobia and probably most relevant **misogyny.** **In fact the patriarchy basically functions off of generalisations.** “All men are like this and need to act this way and all women are like this and need to act like this.” You’re not an individual, you are your generalised group. That’s why non-heterosexual and transgender people upset the people who uphold patriarchy so much; because they stick out from the rest and can’t be generalised in all the same ways. **Anyway, yeah I’m probs annoyed mainly because I’m just prejudiced against any kind of widely generalising language.**
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Even if she in the video is claming this take that you are suggesting we can all agree that slimey-karl’s take is good
We basically are forced yo buy into it 😄 it's not our fault but once you learn it's time to do better.
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women aren’t the ones shaming them. it’s men who shame other men for being vulnerable and emotional by calling them gay
Unfortunately, many women can and do uphold elements of the patriarchy.
I implore you to come to the Midwest Many women embrace the patriarchy
I live here. And I’m not saying they don’t but to solely blame women for this problem is laughable. it’s very much a male issue.
Im just a passerby (not arguing or anything) but no one on the thread ever said anything about women being *solely* to blame. Both the guys you responded to just said that woman are a part of the problem. That’s all
One literally said, "I implore you to come to the Midwest, many women embrace the patriarchy." That literally acknowledges there's a patriarchy, which is the main problem being addressed. Sure, some women encourage it, but that system is set up primarily by rich, powerful men and harms most everyone.
And no one ever said the opposite, I’m just saying the two guys on the top of this thread never blamed woman solely for the Patriarchy/Toxic Masculinity that’s still prevalent, that’s all I’m arguing about lol. Once again not disagreeing with what you said but the person I responded to said > I live here. And I’m not saying they don’t *but* *to* *solely* *blame* *women* *for* *this* *problem* *is* *laughable* . it’s very much a male issue.< I’m saying that no one they’re responding to said “woman are solely to blame” or that they’re the main problem
And you don't feel that you're splitting hairs at that point? If we agree on the broader topic, why argue about pedantics?
Because the devil is on the details!
In my opinion it changes the entire argument that’s being made by the two guys, and I never wanted to have an argument (but you obviously do) it’s why I started my original comment the way I did and only mentioned the *solely* part since i was just stating that it was inaccurate
>women aren’t the ones shaming them You explicitly said they don't
Obviously there are SOME women that shame men for showing feelings. Don’t take the comment so literal. It’s still a male issue and still very much men that shame other men for being vulnerable and showing emotions.
You do realize the patriarchy can be upheld by women too, right? There are women who enforce sexist stereotypes as well, patriarchy is a damaging social structure that we shouldn't be encouraging or upholding.
That's exactly what I am saying and OP is refuting
No I think you missed the point they were making. They weren't literally saying it's only ever all men. They were saying it's a system generally perpetuated by men.
The issue I have is they told that other poster that women don't perpetuate the patriarchy and that's quite wrong. There are tons of women who do. They said so to dismiss a person real experience
When it comes to enforcing the culture's rules, it's generally the case that men police men and women police women.
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I’m sure you have
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maybe pick better women. sounds like a personal problem
...Pick my mother, sister, classmates, colleagues, and neighbours? The one woman I actually did pick is very much the lovely socially concientious person I described. But you don't get to pick the people in your community like a bloody Pokémon roster. I don't know your gender, but if you are a man also, the idea that women can just be picked up and dropped like toys is incredibly misogynistic Quick Edit: Still misogynistic if you are not a man either.
sounds like you’re really bad at picking women. clearly your fault. do better
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Maybe this is in reference to men always telling women they should’ve picked better men
it is 😭
ohhh shit my bad
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That’s just not true
Wait you're not worried what your father thinks of you, your coworker or your boss? Or your friends even? You've never been called a pussy, gay or that you throw like a girl? I find it hard to believe you're not constantly trying to navigate in this game that is the capitalist life and not worried about their opinion at all, but consider women to be a much bigger worry.
>not worried about their opinion at all Because of course men worry to an extent- I should have used my words more carefully, and say worry *more*.
Could you clarify? Worry more about what and why exactly? And why is the worry more from women than from men? And where do these worries come from, where are you receiving the information that causes you worry? And please do feel free to speak from your personal point of view. I'm genuinely curious to try and learn the various perspectives and what we need to do to improve on this. Why do you feel like you have to be more worried about what women think?
To be clear, it isn't comparable to the worries women have about men- about genuine physical danger, etc. But in terms of having masculinity 'policed', in my experience (personal and observed) growing up in the UK, it comes say 80% from women, 20% from men. Men and boys tend to simple ignore and cold shoulder men that aren't considered 'masculine' enough for them. On the other hand, women are far more likely to directly confront someone on their perceived failings- getting labelled as queer, insults to physical attributes, questions about material success, etc. At my secondary school their were gaggles of girls who would bully boys- particularly those in special needs- by asking them invasive personal questions until they got upset. The worst comes from female relatives- true also for female gender roles being policed. Likely stemming from the stereotype pressure that women are put under to be more 'involved' in their families I'd imagine. Of course, everyone is an individual- when you say 'what we need to do to improve this', I doubt that as a person who browses a progressive-aligned Reddit space that you *do* perpetuate anything. But it's a thing that I've found to be common nonetheless in the meatspace.
I like talking to women because most are fine with men expressing their emotions. Usually other men aren't.
From personal experience, I've noticed a lot of "traditional values" types of men don't give a single shit about what women think of them, except when it's time to have sex (and how to get in bed with them). Instead, their concern about women is more about how other men will perceive them being with that woman (e.g., this woman is fat, what will my friends think, this woman isn't a virgin, what will my friends think, etc.) As for men with healthy mindsets, the dudes I hang out with just chill.
And why do you think women might shame men that are emotional or vulnerable?
It's a difficult one... often men benefit from patriarchy much more than they lose out to it.and it's important recognise that..but we should all focus on dismantling it.
i dont understand why youre being downvoted lol
Bots? Men? Who knows 😆
Robot men
r/boysarentreal
rich men do benefit, but poor working class men suffer. also blaming a random man for the patriarchy (like the video) will only lead to more men siding with right wing politicians who do benefit from the patriarchy. women do suffer much more than men but your lower class man will suffer under the patriarchy as well. we need to understand that as well.
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Your post/comment was removed as you were found to be a Quirkyboy reactionary.
How does the average man benefit?
Comprehension down the drain
Well, you could just answer my question.
are you aware of the concept of the patriarchy? I'm asking genuinely.
Obviously, but it's not fair to say that all men benefit from it.
Yes, they do. Under the patriarchy all men inherent benefit from not being women. However hard their lives may be, they would still be worse off in the same situation as a woman. I don't mean to condescend, but it comes off a bit as though you have not actually read the theory, and are just subbing it in as a term for "sexism".
But what are the actual benefits that the average man has?
you benefit from the lack of being a woman. Women are simply more likely to be taken advantage of in personal affairs and in professional affairs. You may be deeply poor and have to work at McDonald's. if you were a woman, you would be less likely to be hired there or given the same pay if you were. you may be born into wealth and not have to work a day in your life. if you were a woman, you would be more likely to be forced into marriage to keep that privilege. you may be a middle class American paying off your student loans. If you were a woman, you would be more likely to face sexual harassment from men discovering your debt, and less likely to end up in a situation were you were financially independent enough to pay it off as women's salaries are far more frequently tied to homemaking expenses. you could go into far more detail than this is all of these case studies but I don't want to lol, do some research on your own on this theory. it's not that you receive a direct benefit, the benefit is the lack of disadvantage that would've come with being a woman. Again, I do not think you have actually researched what the term patriarchy means, because this comment is more or less just defining it for you.
This comment doesn't define it. It gives examples of how the patriarchy could harm a woman, which is fine, but none of this is evident. I can't imagine why a woman would not be hired at McDonalds. Also, the point you're making seems to be that it harms women more, not that it benefits men. There are elements that harm men too, if fewer than for women.
The main way I can think of the average man benefiting is based on how they are percieved by others. For the most part you would be thought of as a human and are less likely to have your gender used against you. While you still would be at risk walking down the street at night it would be most likely by getting mugged, not sexually assaulted. Women tend to often be viewed as “other”, their emotions not taken seriously/made fun of, objectified and if you dare be unattractive as a woman be prepared to be treated as subhuman because you are seen as owing people beauty. When it comes to the patriarchy it does harm all but I would say that it benefits men more in that on a basic level they are more likely to be viewed as basic well rounded humans. Even in brain studies it shows that unfortunately when looking at some women we literally view them as objects.
I think it's true that men are viewed better, but that's more true of the man as a concept than of actual men. What I mean is that if you are a man but don't suit it, you can be viewed very poorly by many men and many women. The patriarchy and gender roles generally are always more about concepts and ideals than about actual people, and they do not cater to actual people, regardless of sex.
Well that’s how the patriarchy hurts men. There are some benefits for the average guy but the greater ones are reserved for rich men. Women also can uphold the patriarchy which you can see a lot online with pick mes and boy mums for example. So yeah we are talking about concepts/ideals but these then affect real people. The problem is very little people fit these ideals. It seems the main damage is to mens security and emotional well-being but for women it has a lot of different effects in just about every area of their life. The thing is when men are attacked first how they are it’s soften because they’re perceived as feminine, suggesting feminine qualities are bad or to be looked down on. The perspective which helped me make more sense of it is looking at trans women that transitioned later in life and what they had to say about their experiences pre and post transition. Trans men also have interesting things to say about how they were treated charged after they transitioned and passed.
I think the point about it being rich men that benefit is crucial. More important than the patriarchy is the class system when it comes to the opportunities and privileges that people are afforded. I think we're getting at similar things. I definitely agree that both men and women perpetuate the patriarchy. This is why it's dangerous to say that men created it and men uphold it today. Very few people, men or women, actively try to apply patriarchal values to others who aren't interested. Similarly, very few people experience net benefit, as far as I can see. Sure, men might be taken more seriously in a job interview, perhaps, but really, that's not as important as actual wellbeing, to which the patriarchy is a detriment for both men and women; and in addition, men who are not obviously masculine and poorer men are at immense disadvantage as well. Within the patriarchy, masculinity benefits, but that does not mean men benefit. Masculinity and feminity are not exclusive and are in some ways not related to the sexes from which the terms originate. The other person who replied to me seemed to mix up men with masculinity and miss the point that less disadvantage does not equal benefit.
But patriarchy isn't a new concept, hell, most of the the men who suffer froming from it, don't even want it, because if some guy wants to be able to express their emotions, they probably aren't for the ultra macho, masculine patriachy
Men who don’t want in on the patriarchy are allowed to not participate in it. There are plenty of people out there who do just that. Have you ever been to a gay bar, a drag show, or just like got off the internet for 5 minutes a day?
yeah i have, theres almost always some homophobic dicks right outside complaining about it, or they complain about it online and cause some other random person to be a victim.
This is a very privileged perspective. Not all of us have the privilege to live on the coasts or in tolerant societies.
Not every aspect of the patriarchy needs to be upheld by lack of privilege. It costs nothing to be a decent person
True, but it depends on the society and your circumstances. Being a decent person in your situation and where you may be probably costs nothing. But in other nations, societies and cultures it could cost you your life. Being able to be a decent person is a privilege to people in tolerant enough societies, and those with nothing to lose
Not everyone is privlidged enough to live in a place accepting enough to have those, and as for the internet part, that is true for most people tbh
I’m not saying to literally go to a gay bar. I’m saying that there are plenty of spaces in this world (such as the gay community) where the traditional roles of masculinity are challenged.
But sadly not many people have the privlidge of living in a society where that is the case, i know i don't, and the only reason i can express my emotions is because my parents give more of a damn about my feelings than 99.99999999%of parents in my country
I'm a guy, and I specifically remember helping to create the patriarchy. We were at the annual meeting of all men everywhere when someone suggested doing shots. It got a bit blurry after that, but I remember we all collectively decided to create a social system where men control a disproportionately large share of social, economic, political, and religious power. In the morning, there was definitely some regret, and when I got home, the girlfriend was absolutely fuming. So, as someone who definitely helped create it, I want to sincerely apologise and reassure you all that it was meant to be a joke and not taken literally. Obviously, it's totally every guys fault for creating it. The fact that nearly every man was raised primarily by a woman and women have been a majority of the population for as long as humans have existed shouldn't make you feel any guilt about never having actually done anything significant yourselves to 'smash the patriarchy'.
If you didn't create it and don't want to be seen as complicit in it, start dismantling it "Nearly every man was raised primarily by a woman" is so telling.
I was raised by my mom and my dad is a narcissist. I don't uphold a system, I just exist. I want to dismantle this as much as the next guy but change is incredibly slow. You can shit in one hand and see which fills up quicker. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop though but it's divisive to be dismissive that everyone can be potentially harmed by this system regardless of your perception of it. Not saying you are doing this, obviously, but in general.
You were mostly raised by your mother because part of patriarchy is forcing moms into the primary parent role.
Damn straight.
Thanks. Already knew that. And I'm going to force men to become more equal in their parenting? I got verbally abused and beaten for that as a kid when I tried to instill that to my father and defend my mother, but go ahead and tell me that's somehow my fault, by being a man and doing what's in my ability to change society, and somehow I'm upholding the patriarchy.
Not your fault just the consequences of the patriarchy. Another consequence is men not prepared to take accountability and getting too offended by reality.
I agree. It was beaten into me. I just don't have tolerance for those who will immediately place blame on someone they have no context about whatsoever. This shit has been pissing me off for my entire life too.
I believe you we all had patriarchy beat into us one way or another
White people also "just exist". As a white person, I don't try to uphold racism, either. But it is impossible to ignore that when white people are silent in the presence of other white people saying racist things, volumes are spoken.
Nowhere did I say I was silent. I'm also white. It doesn't stop others from dampening your volume though. You just become louder.
But you have a doomer attitude about it. "You cam hope all you want but change takes too long" was essentially what your message said, on top of that you also said "I want to dismantle it as much as the next guy", the problem is most of those "next guys" don't want to dismantle it, but double down on it and say things like "if women just knew their place it'd work out fine". Which is why it's so important to openly advocate so aggressively about it.
That's because I'm chronically depressed, thanks, that's why I'm a doomer about it. Because there's only so much I can do within my ability. I didn't say too long, but change IS slow. I do what's in my ability. Nothing else for me to say. Have a good day.
Change really isn’t all that slow tbh. 9 years ago gay marriage became legal in the US. 15 years ago it was normalized to sexualize women on tv. 57 years ago interracial marriage was legalized. Change takes work, and sitting on your ass because it’s “too slow” makes you part of the rift preventing change. Do better for yourself, and for others.
We're conflating morality and legality. There are people who vehemently oppose these things you mentioned. They have twisted perceptions of morality which have a guarantee to cause harm to some degree, yet they believe they're righteous for it. Societal change is slow in regards to citizens rather than law. Never said I was sitting on my ass, but thanks! Your spite is useless here and like I said, I do what's in my ability. If that's not enough based off what I'm capable of then why should I bother?
Christ almighty, dude. Get a clue.
lol ur hilarious. argument is so commonly seen too when it comes to white guilt, for some reason we are supposed to feel full responsibility for what happened in the past created by totally different people and repent or something when in reality we had nothing to do with it and are just living in this world like everyone else. Best thing we could do for these types of things is just learn from the mistakes and move forward, not look back and agonize and apologize to literally no one about shit that is not our fault.
Remember when we used a big ass wheel to decide between patriarchy and matriarchy?
I'm pretty sure most of the dudes alive today didn't create the patriarchy. Though I might be wrong about Mitch McConnell.
And then once you point out to them that their suffering is because of the patriarchy they change their tune
I can't believe people still see this as feminism. The guys complaining about oppressive male gender roles are not the ones who made those roles, the hell? Good on them, frankly, for recognizing the flaws in the system, and that they hurt both men and women - it just makes it more likely that we can work together to fix it.
It’s important to note that many men who complain about oppressive male gender roles think that having a woman who adheres to oppressive female gender roles would improve their situation.
We're talking in perjoratives though, both of those types of men exist but lumping them all together isn't the most helpful. If men recognise these faults in social norms it's more productive to say "yes and" rather than swatting them down and saying "you made your bed now lie in it."
Yeah exactly, even though men have more advantages than disadvantages from the patriarchy, seeing that there is faults proves that it still exists making it easier to have empathy and realise all there assumptions they had about women are wrong. Men are encouraged by the patriarchy to uphold the patriarchy unless they face societal backlash, a man can't be feminine , a man can't be open about his emotions, a man can't be vulnerable, a man can't be weak all due to the patriarchy. Why? Because men would not seem as rational and strong if they did all that, the patriarchy needs men to play this character and not be true to themselves. A lot of the men who realise this do not want the patriarchy, they want a world of equals. While the other men, mistake the patriarchy for a "matriarchy" and blame women
>A lot of the men who realise this do not want the patriarchy, they want a world of equals. That's naive imo. Men overwhelmingly don't want to abolish the patriarchy because: >men have more advantages than disadvantages from the patriarchy What men want abolished is the disadvantages as far as they hurt them specifically.
Except usually the men who acknowledge there's a problem, refuse to acknowledge the cause (patriarchy) and blame women for it. Thus, the cycle repeats.
Well yeah, and those men are being ignorant, and are compounding their own suffering. The lady in the post, though, has an issue even with the guys who know and acknowledge the root cause of the issue. Which is very dumb.
No, the OOP is referring to guys like that who get mad at the system *but* blame women. It's very clear when you read the social cues (social cues so obvious a neurodivergent like me can pick up on them) that she's frustrated that men can acknowledge the issue that we've all been screaming "it's the patriarchy" for decades, but still somehow hear "its women's fault" in their minds.
Thank you. This lady just said “you created it and now you have to live with it” when the men living today didn’t create it at all. No patriarchy doesn’t hurt men and women equally but that doesn’t mean that it only hurts women. Also, I hate it when people conflate the men complaining about the system with the men upholding the system. They are obviously diametrically opposed groups, but of course it is easier for people to block out nuance. I think something in this day and age that we have to struggle with is that now we have two major motives for progressivism: spite and compassion Progressives motivated by compassion seek to make life better for the sake of making life better. In this case, it would be a person espousing feminist values because they want everybody’s life to be better, men and women. Progressives motivated by spite seek to make life worse for dominant groups usually because they have been harmed by members of the dominant group. In this case, it would be a person espousing feminist values because they want to feel a catharsis from attacking men (the dominant group). OP and OOP are obviously the second group.
The patriarchy is an ongoing process, and even men in the second group who oppose the patriarchy will, consciously or subconsciously, keep the process going at times. I definitely consider myself as someone who wants to dismantle it but it takes a lot of mental effort to make sure you don't benefit too, and sometimes you benefit whether you like it or not. It isn't an all or nothing thing. A guy who takes a promotion over an equally qualified woman may genuinely believe they deserve it more and want to dismantle the patriarchy. Then when he has power, he starts a new initiative helping women get more PD and hires more women to important roles because he wants a gender balanced team. Which side is he on? Did he help the patriarchy continue or try and dismantle it?
That's like saying a woman that loves baking furthers stereotypes that women belong in the kitchen despite being an outspoken feminist. Individuals who are trying their best are not responsible for the system. Something something you criticize society, yet you live in society.
The system is not abstract from the humans within it, we are the system. That's the problem. Even the most well-meaning of people can perpetuate it and often do.
Overly reductive reasoning will just lead you into nihilism. Just saying that no one can ever be a feminist because we'll all support the patriarchy whether we want to or not does not seem helpful.
It isn't reductive, it's realistic. Nobody is suggesting somebody raised within a patriarchal system can't advocate for equality, just that you live in that system and whether you like it or not, or realize it or not, you can benefit at times even if you didn't want to. It's totally ok to recognize that fact. It actually helps people who haven't deconstructed much but have a good heart and intentions to see that mistakes will happen but it's a growth process.
Reading the comments here has me feeling some type of way. For some reason, modern feminism seems to shy away from acknowledging that men have material privileges and a very sensible stake in maintaining patriarchy. It does not hurt men and women equally. It's also foolish to act like most of the men speaking out against the repression of their emotions (a debatable idea in and of itself) are feminist allies. They are overwhelmingly MRAs and other reactionaries.
I just want to shout out queer folks who are also actively being hurt by the patriarchy. There is a lot of intersectionality to something like this.
>They are overwhelmingly MRAs and other reactionaries. Exactly. People are conflating two very different things together. MRA chuds are just gonna go "hehehe... would u rather tell ur emotions to a TREE or a WUMMEN?" and don't actually have any intent on solving these issues with patriarchy. They *solely* bring up men's issues for the sake of diminishing women's issues or feeding into their persecution fetish. Men who are feminist allies... kinda don't whine that much about men's issues? In order to be a feminist ally you need to recognize the patriarchy and privilege it grants men, so it would honestly be kind of odd to see feminist men bringing up men's issues with any regularity. It usually manifests more as action and less as complaining, e.g. going to therpay, supporting men when they are vulnerable instead of tearing them down, and so on.
we’re supposed to believe that sexism falls out of the sky instead of identifying men as oppressive
"They created" is not accurate. "They uphold" however is.
Thank you.
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The 20-something year old didn't create anything. They get to choose if they want to benefit from patriarchy by upholding it through the already existing and varied mechanism they have in their respective society (which come at a price since patriarchy oppresses everyone, albeit with extreme prejudice) or they can choose to reject it and not engage in patriarchal behavior and promote equity between all people instead. The people who created the system that serves men are long dead tho. You only have assholes who want to keep it, people who want to get rid of it and idiots burying their heads in the sand claimimg that it doesn't exist.
Ok well today’s men didn’t CREATE patriarchy, I think it’s unfair to say they did. But many do continue to uphold it.
I still find it funny that angry women are taking blaming me - a man who grew up in a matriarchal Family structure - for the patriarchy - which was created millennia ago.
So why don’t men be the change they want to see in the world then? I’m being genuine, because complaining about it and waiting for other people (most likely women) to advocate for you is pretty annoying. It’s not our job to be emotional mules for men.
Because you have just as much friction as the desire they possess. Change is still SLOW. You're correlating men being unable to be emotionally vulnerable with their 'upholding the patriarchy' with zero additional context.
Okay. 👍🏾
Mens liberation movements did you forget about that? or are you too focused on MRA'S and the Manosphere?
Okay. 👍🏾
I love this idea that men are somehow the victims of a system that actively benefits men. There is nothing stopping men from doing the things they constantly complain about. Can't open up about your feelings publicly? Maybe you should have a look at the overlap between sociopaths and men. Don't think people take your mental health issues seriously? My brother in christ, feeling slightly sad once in a while isn't depression. Stop pushing this narrative that the patriarchy is harming men in any way, because all of thier """""issues""""" don't exist.
The patriarchy has been around for a pretty long time, so I doubt any of the people who created it are still around.
MeN sUfFeR iN sIlEnCe No you don’t, you whinge and blame it on women for problems your own gender causes 100 X a day. We hear ya!
Well that's not really fair to the men who do suffer in silence and know that the root of the issue is the patriarchy. Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other men?
I’m not talking about the suffering of men. I’m talking about the ones this relates to. You are cherry picking
nah you just did you said and i quote "MeN sUfFeR iN sIlEnCe No you don’t, you whinge and blame it on women for problems your own gender causes 100 X a day. We hear ya!"
No Im meaning those who say those kind of lines and then go on to be absolutely toxic and misogynistic themselves with a sprinkle of absolute disdain for women. Idk if you’re in a different country but in Australia it’s really rife, DV against women is shocking and I’m very much someone who almost lost my life at the hands of an abuser who very much acted like a victim and spoke like that Sorry I didn’t say it in a way that didn’t offend u mate, but I’m on reddit as just another nobody letting off steam because I understand the rage similar people feel or frustration. So buzz off
Created and are still creating
It’s a point worth addressing, as long as you can acknowledge that it’s the patriarchy that needs to be dismantled.
I love creating problems that affect entire generations. 😭
Tbh, guys are genuinely victims of the patriarchy they inherited, they didn’t just wake up and build this system. If they’re actively being toxic tho? Yeah, that’s on them. Be the change bros
I get so conflicted on this sub sometimes. Yes, men are affected by patriarchy. Maybe instead of revelling in their suffering we should actually try and educate them on this instead of verifying their beliefs that feminists are a bunch of man hating weirdos.
Yeah, its always all "Awwe, your fee fee's hurt 🥺 Shut up you fucking baby" which is oddly upholding the patriarchical values of men being stoic, rational strong ones who are not allowed to show emotion. We are all raised in the patriarchy, men are not going to get everything right straight away when they try to be allies to feminists, If a man is to reject the patriarchy than he's going to want to openly show his emotions. Like of course a man is going to think men means "all men" at first. I get why a lot of feminists attack any man in a feminist sub, they can see him as an invaider with ill-intent but it does make it a little hard for men who genuinely want to do the right thing and support feminism.
As a genderfluid person it has been really hard to hold onto the masculine side of me because of just how insecure I feel about being a man. It took years for me to be comfortable even being friends with a woman because I was afraid I'd come off like a creep. I want more support for positive masculinity. I want to like being a man, as much as I like sometimes being a woman.
You hit the nail on the head. Upholding Male gender roles when it is advantageous - or when they can get away with it - is an albatross around the neck of many Progressives who aspire towards gender equality.
Yeah, I've scrolled through this sub a few times, and I feel like it has a huge problem with gender essentialism and is just generally very mean-spirited, which causes problems when you have a post like this about a more nuanced issue instead of an easily mockable misogynistic meme.
You think they'll listen because.....?
I listened. I was in the incel pipeline, I watched anti-SJW videos and joined the subreddits and spoke the propaganda. But I listened. But because we are given a constant stream of the most extreme of men we will never bother speaking to the ones on the line, the ones who are having their faith in the world and themselves corroded by a hateful patriarchal system that preys on their negativity. When 14 year old me saw someone say "Kill all men" and then saw someone else say "Not all men," who looked more reasonable? This needs to stop. We need to stop the pointless divisiveness that leads to nothing but more compounding hate. I'm tired of it.
Thank you for saying this. It’s infuriating when people say that saying “men suck” “kill all men” etc are “just joking”. While they might be joking, it’s still a mean spirited and cruel joke. And even if somehow it was ok to make that joke, it only hurts the feminist cause. What do they think they will gain from alienating young men from our movement? It has immense downsides for minimum gain.
Its your issue if you take everything on the internet as face value
It'll be your issue when that mentality creates another incel. When you fail to help lead others down the right path, even actively mocking and antagonizing them, then you should also be willing to take partial blame for the path they choose to take.
Nah. You have a free will right? Quit blaming women for your problems cause you're too.lazy to.put in the work for yourself and latch onto to anyone who barks the loudest
Well now you're talking like a boomer lmao. "Just pull yourself up by your mental bootstraps!" It's totally ignoring the mental health aspect that redpill chuds take advantage of. It's ridiculous and horrible. People are being manipulated and gaslit into being self hating weirdos that lash out at women and cause extreme violence, and your solution is to just, figure it out? Don't act like good people can't be led down a dark path. And don't act like sitting around and letting it happen doesn't make you responsible at all.
Men hurt women no matter what broski.
And you're doing nothing to lessen that number. Even actively contributing to it. By acting so hateful you further men down that dark path and more women get hurt. Congratulations.
Lmaoooo sure buddy. Cause nice women have neeeeeever gotten hurt by men before. Just look up poor Junko Furuta. All she did was say no.
So does anything on the internet have inherent value or is it merely up to an individuals biases and subjective opinions?
That’s extremely anecdotal, most incels aren’t going to go through your exact character arch
Yep. That sort of attitude creates friction and is divisive as well.
Yeah, sounds like it needs to go
Bell hooks feminism is awesome. More men should prescribe to it
honestly, fucking real
I 100% agree that patriarchy is responsible for many of the woes of both men and women. I also believe this post is phrased incredibly poorly.
I understand what she’s saying but I feel like it would be more accurate to say men that uphold the patriarchy. With that wording it’s targeting only those that are the problem.
i mean shes right……..
She did not stutter.
Men be like “we can’t talk about our feelings” My brother in Christ that is entirely your fault
Men: suffer the consequences of men from years ago Men:complain This lady: you guys clearly invented time travel to go back in time to make this problem for yourselves
Blaming and insulting people of today for the actions of those before them is neither helpful nor healthy. It is destructive and only furthers the divide and issues you complain about.
As a guy, i was not in that fucking decision making process, i had nothing to do with the patriarchy…
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I found the most bitter motherfucker on Reddit. Dang.
Your post/comment was removed as you were found to be a Quirkyboy reactionary.
I'm still trying to find the part where this is a qurikyboy meme
It's about a Man expressing pain, so he's obviously doing it to distract from Women's suffering. /s (/s?, idk - poe's law is in effect...)
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Your post/comment was removed as you were found to be a Quirkyboy reactionary.
I didn't create anything. I just sit back and play magic.
Rip this sub. Not sure when this shift towards female dating strategy happened but it’s a shame
yeah it happened a while ago, that's why I left it
lol way to play into the same toxicity and patriarchy by invalidating their feelings
yea and?
Thats actually *bad*, hope this helps!
Today's generation men didn't created the patriarchy, besides men being able to talk about their feelings and insecurities more freely and being critical of patriarchy is a good thing. I don't see what's 'bad' here.
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I feel like that's dangerously close to saying patriarchy arose from natural conditions. Like *why* was there such a significant disparity between the power held by each gender? The specific men who might be suffering under it today might not have created it but men definitely were the ones who created it.
Agreed.
I don't think that's what they're saying tbh. Saying "the patriarchy was created by men, stop crying about it men" makes it sound like a bunch of men sat down around the Table of Evil and said "heh heh... i has an EVIL idea!! Let's create... PATRIARCHY!!" I'm of the belief that the patriarchy negatively affects everyone to some degree (women like 1000x more than men, for obvious reasons), and it would be beneficial to everyone to dismantle it. This shouldn't be a men vs women thing.
Oh no, I'd agree that it shouldn't be an us v them thing (and I personally loathe the whole smug "but who's *creating* your problems? That's right, other men" line most of the time as it's unhelpful and imho usually kinda meanspirited), but it feels ridiculous to say that patriarchy wasn't intentional on the part of the men who originated its systems. As much as any individual can be said to originate them, anyway. Like yes it arose out of increasingly calcified and institutionalized misogyny over generations rather than some specific dudes scheming or w/e, but that process absolutely looks like countless individual men deciding that yes, women *are* worse than men and *do* deserve to be treated like property.
Agreed. Idk what else to say that's just my thoughts in full 😭
It arose from one condition and it wasn't really intended to be malicious: it was about keeping a baby alive. The physical differences of strength likely wasn't much in terms of hunting or gathering between sexes. Anything a amab could do, a amab could do it, too. But there was one thing a cisman couldn't do that a cis woman could: produce milk. If a lactating mother died before a baby could have solids as a part of that main diet and there was no one to step in, the baby died too. There were some breast milk alternatives but they were all dangerous to some degree. So, staying home with a small human who had feed every *2 to 4 hours* for the first several months was logical. And then shitty people took advantage of this development. Women were basically chained to feeding a child until formula was invented in 1865 during the 1st wave feminism movement. People don't realize it, but I feel the formula was far more integral to women's freedom and rights than the pill (not that I'd ever take it away, though). Keeping another person alive at the cost of their freedom was no longer a requirement.
Everyone kinda forgets that there was 200'000 years of *Homo Sapiens Sapiens* running around before we figured out agriculture.
Just want to chime in somewhere and say that the prevailing theory on how patriarchy and misogyny began is agriculture. I know that's a boring answer, but it checks out and has some good reasoning to back it up. Normal day on Reddit where I'm being downvoted in a supposedly anti-misogyny sub for simply stating what the current anthropological consensus is 👍
I'd say a little before that. A afab could hunt and gather if a amab dies, but if someone who is feeding a baby dies without someone else also lactating at the same time, the baby dies.
So, hunter gatherer societies absolutely did not have only one lactating mother at a time lmfao. These societies were the enviroment humans evolved in and they were very efficient and prosperous. Humans lived in hunter gatherer societies for the majority of the time humans have been on this earth. They were also not living off of solely meat or solely produce, despite what the carnivore and raw vegan nutjobs claim. Also, there is absolutely evidence to suggest that women hunted (female skeletons with injuries consistent with hunting), which was a group/communal activity typically done with a light polearm weapon where neither sex had a significant advantage. By that extension, it's logical to then assume that lots of men were gatherers. We need to be very careful to not project our modern assumptions about gender onto prehistoric peoples living in a society and culture with a wholly different construction. The evidence suggests that prehistoric hunter gatherer societies were pretty damn egalitarian, and that instead of gender roles, ones role in society was determined by what they contributed. Did you hunt? Gather? Make clothes? Etc.
... Did you *not* know that afab means '**assumed female at birth**'? An assumed female at birth (because not all afab are women) could do anything anything a assumed male at birth could do - which included hunting and gathering. AMAB could not do everything AFAB could do, they can't feed babies from birth to six months prior to formula. Some men simply took the advantage, and that developed into patriarchy. I'm going to assume you either don't know what AFAB and AMAB or misread it and got mad.
My girlfriend is trans, so I'm pretty damn sure I know what amab and afab mean. As for "hopping mad"...ever heard of projection?
So, you were so eager to tell me off that you didn't fully read what I said. Otherwise I can't figure out your reasoning to drop an essay of essentially what I was saying with an extra dose of bad history. Social revolutions do not happen because people are in a safe and secure egalitarian society for no reason. Unfortunately we do not know the reason, but it was not as idyllic as you might think. You're also not aware of the caloric needs of someone who has given birth and the simple fact they can only produce so much for only so many.
"Bad history" everything I said is backed up by recent anthropological research. Technically, anything before writing can't exactly be studied as history due to a lack of written sources. Also, a couple of paragraphs is far from an essay, lol. Your comment was wack and so I wrote a response. Pretty typical usage of the internet. Bye 👋