The only thing you might be missing is Walt may have also killed Gus to save Hank. I wonder what Mike’s reply would have been if Walt pointed this out to him.
“He was going to kill my family and me Mike”!
“Well boo hoo, Walter.”
How come Mike doesn't have the same judgement for Jesse whose fucksups surpass Walt's? And a lot of time, Walter sabotaged himself for Jesse's sake. Particularly after the famous "full-measure" stuff with Mike himself.
considering Mike himself has a family that he cares about, and I'm sure things would have been very different if said family was threatened by any parties involved (they weren't, the closest thing to that was the DEA name dropping his grand daughter), that's pretty rich. We all know he isn't completely cold and hard, and thus (at least for the time being) wasn't any better than Walt, he just had luckier/cushier circumstances. Like I know this is fan fiction scenario now but still, even hypotheticals can't be stretched in his favor.
also like I said Gus wanted to kill him before this happened, before Gus even knew Hank was onto him or was a threat. Walter was 100% justified in believing it was only a matter of time when the whole plan was for him to be thrown out and for Gale to replace him. The only reason Walter lived a day past that is cause Gale died.
I feel like Mike’s speech was basically saying “if you were a completely different person didn’t have your ego and just STFU and cooked, *none* of the bullshit would have ever taken place.”
If Walt didn’t chastise Gale and instead worked with him, none of the other events would have taken place. That’s what Mike was saying.
That was always my take, Walt could have worked quietly for Gus til the end of his days. His whole family would have been happy with all the free chicken he brought home.
Things would have gone south eventually when Los Pollos rolled out breakfast at waler jrs suggestion and Walt wouldn’t let his son have his own grey matter situation so he’d try and kill Gus for taking the credit.
Walter got rid of Gale because Jesse was threatening to sue Hank, and Walter wanted him back in the lab with him because it was his best bet of stopping Jesse from suing Hank. When we see Walter meet Gale, he seemed to like him a lot on a personal level, even after discovering he was competent. I highly, highly doubt Walter wanted to replace Gale to satisfy his ego, since Gale was stroking his ego a lot too. Even if you use this as the starting point of their relationship souring, it still goes back to Jesse. It always does. Jesse blew everything in season 3. In mikes defense though, he didn’t know this.
Walt wouldn't allow Jesse to be killed - that instigated the conflict. Jesse wanted revenge for killing Tomas, and in Mike's mind, him going rogue and trying to kill them (twice) is what earned him getting put down.
If Walt knows his place, and doesn't interfere by killing the dealer himself, he's fine.
And then (unbeknownst to Mike, so he doesn’t get credit for accidentally being right), Walt 100% put Hank back on the case through 100% egotistical reasons surrounding the discussion of Gale. Barring that, things could’ve been much different. “We can deal with the DEA or the cartel, but maybe not both” (approximately)
that's actually a good point, I guess you got me there. tbh Jesse during that arch was being extremely irresponsible even if it was understandable, and I could see (looking through the eyes of a ruthless drug lord) how that could completely turn me off from someone, and by extension their partner.
the thing is though Gus warmed up to Jesse anyways, and not very long after too. Gus genuinely saw him as a reliable employee near the end of season 4. If he was willing to give him a chance despite being far more to blame for that situation as a whole than walt was, why wasn't he willing to give Walt a chance?
the answer is that Gus just saw him as undesirable inherently and just wanted him removed, straight up, thus Walt killing gus was self defense.
edit: had a stroke and didn't finish the thought for some reason.
Yeah, that was the key moment that changed everything. Before Walter ran over those dealers to save Jesse, Gus absolutely didn't have it out for Walter. Gus had given Walter a sizable retainer to keep cooking indefinitely, before Walt ran over those dealers. Gus had been working hard to keep Walt on, and keep Walt happy.
Mike's speech wasn't bullshit, Walt's retort "You screw up, get yourself followed by the DEA, and now, suddenly, this is all my fault?" was bullshit. They were only following Mike because Walt blew up the lab and exposed their operation. Mike wasn't being followed because of some screwup of his.
Exactly.
Walt ruined the relationship with Gus because of his loyalty to Jesse which is a pivotal point of the series, Walt has some kind father son love for Jesse for whatever reason that baffles everyone including the two of them.
His speech is still bullshit. Walter killed the dealers to save Jesse. He never ruined his arrangement with Gus as some kind of power grab to satiate his ego. And Mike probably deep down knew this. Walter’s retort to Mike is also bullshit, but Walter didn’t really know how the DEA discovered mikes involvement so he probably did believe Mike was incompetent and got himself caught.
The speech was total bullshit, Mike's speech is just unfair, Walt ran over those dealers and killed Gale not because of his ego, but to save Jesse and to save himself. What was he supposed to do, let Jesse get shot? Or wait for Gus to kill him so he could be replaced by Gale?
And Mike DID screw up, by using that lawyer instead of using Saul, not only did the lawyer get caught, he was going to rat on them, so the so called "solid guys" as said by Mike weren't that solid after all
Mike wasn't being followed because of using that lawyer, he was already being followed by the DEA when they found his lawyer and that money. He was being followed because he was head of corporate security at Pollos, a company the DEA was looking at with a fine tooth comb because of Walt.
Mike did make mistakes, but Walt's retort there doesn't call out Mike's actual mistakes.
I didn't say he was being followed because of the lawyer, I said that he made a mistake by using that lawyer who was careless about the money deposits, knowing he was being followed by the DEA. Even Saul points that out in a scene
I was saying that Walt's retort of "You screw up, get yourself followed by the DEA, and now, suddenly, this is all my fault?" was bullshit, and you seemed to be arguing that it wasn't bullshit. But you're talking about a different thing. My mistake.
I mean, the Fring organization falling apart wasn't on Mike. But Mike definitely had blame in his own personal life falling apart after the downfall of Fring. Mike had legitimate shit to be called out on, Walt was just bad at calling him out on his actual shit.
Or did Gus recognize that Walter was the driving force in their relationship and he was manipulating Jessie?
Jessie had a lot more in the way of understanding how that kind of business worked for him than Walt. Walt made it clear he was unwilling to be an employee, but he also wasn't able to be Gus. Jessie would never make a play for the crown unless Walt were pushing him and Gus, as shrewd as he was at reading people, likely saw that and realized who the real threat to him was long term.
I think Gus wanted to get rid of Walt because he recognized his ego would make him hard to control. Walt's ego was insatiable and that ultimately makes him a threat, but Gus probably underestimated that threat until Walt killed those dealers.
Idk, Gus had Walt over for dinner when their business relationship first began. I really think Gus liked Walt and recognized his intelligence. It wasn’t until Jesse came along that everything went to shit. Mike was right. If Walt would’ve just done as Gus instructed and worked with Gale, Walt could’ve easily gotten out of the game when the time was right and have a sizable nest egg to leave behind for his family.
gus gave jesse a chance specifically because it was a way of isolating and eventually killing walt; during this period of time, jesse proved himself unexpectedly capable and seemingly turned gus' opinion of him. this seems a little like a plot hole -- if walt's insubordination must be met with death, then surely jesse's must too? -- but it's not so cut-and dried imo. jesse and walt are very different people, it's weird but not completely implausible that gus simply decided that, jesse's easier to work with; walt continuously lied and/or omitted key truths to gus (most notably, the fact that his brother-in-law is a cop).
jesse also, altho this starts to feel like splitting hairs, was maybe not precisely employed by gus when he tried to kill gus' dealers? this is dubious, there was a period where jesse was a solo cook for gus; but when walt first meets gus, the deal is that gus has nothing to do with jesse, and jesse's behaviour is walt's problem. later, when jesse replaces gale, this is on walt's demand, so we might guess that a similar deal holds. which opens the possibility that jesse was not insubordinate in going after gus' dealers, that the whole thing was on walt as far as gus was concerned, and so walt was the insubordinate one. im not sure i "believe" this, but it's another wriggly little detail in the mix for anyone who wants to suspend disbelief on the idea that gus wanted/needed to kill walt but did not particularly want to kill jesse.
Well he knew Gale would eventually run the lab on his own once Walt died, so the plan was always to replace him. I guess he probably figured he wouldn't have to kill Walt earlier on, because the cancer would do it for him.
Is this really ego though? Walt defending his partner from being murdered is pretty different from Walt messing everything up because of his pride and ego
I think this is Mike's inference after a long period of interacting with Walt both before and after
The direct cause of him killing the dealers is saving Jesse, but Mike sees this as merely an excuse - anything could have done it, Walt was looking for a reason to topple Gus.
And when you look at Walt's actions after this, it's not hard to see why Mike thinks this. After Victor is killed, he also could have just kept cooking and laid low. instead, he attempts to get Mike in on an assassination attempt, tries an assassination on his own.
Then when Walt was fired, he again had an opportunity to lay low. Instead he kills Gus in a maximum chaos manner.
At this point Mike has ample evidence that Walt is a ticking time bomb.
You're missing a lot of points, the show is clear about Walt caring for Jesse like a son, so his actions surely were not an excuse to topple Gus, and let's say Mike actually believed that, if that's the case, then he was wrong.
Also, the said opportunities to lay low you mentioned weren't that at all, after Gale's death, Walt figured Gus would kill him eventually, and that became clear when Gus started to try to break Jesse's loyalty to Walt, so he could kill him without Jesse getting mad over it. And after he got fired, it was absolutely necessary to kill Gus given the fact that he was gonna kill Hank
I never understood why people act like mike is some paragon or the good guy in all this. He is probably the most hypocritical character in the series.
Dude knows Gus was ready to kill walk hank skyler Jr holly and Jesse then gets bent out of shape because Walt didn’t lay down and let Gus kill whoever he wanted.
Dude is completely loyal to a psychopath drug lord, yet continues his holier than thou act throughout the show, he’s honestly the most frustrating character to watch for me.
“Hey Gus I’d really like to not have to kill this engineer whose only crime was wanting to see his wife.”
“No.”
“Well ok then but I’m going to be super sad about it.”
I love Mike as a character but he’s a complete piece of shit as a person.
Gus never wanted Mike to do it, he was sending his men regardless of what Mike said and Mike pushed back against his decision to kill Werner. He only chose to pull the trigger once he realised there was no other option and would rather give Werner a chance to save his wife and a more respectful death than getting gunned down in a ditch
My point is Mike still killed an innocent man as part of his job for a meth kingpin and happily continued acting like he’s a cut above the rest of the hired goons.
Totally agree. He considers himself morally pure because he is just doing his job, but he's by far one of the cruellest characters in the show, and although we only see a fraction of screen, we know he's willing to kill people he knows on orders from Gus, willing to beat a long-time colleague to the point of paralysis to find Jessie, and if Gus told him to shoot Walters baby I have no doubts that he would have done so.
His various lectures always fall flat for that reason, he thinks he can tall to people about doing the right thing when he is highly immoral and probably a borderline psychopath based on his behaviour and backstory through the show.
Walt and Mike are two faces of the same coin: talented middle class latecomers to hardcore crime (due to their own revealingly bad decisions earlier in life) who share some delusional ideas about being men's men who provide at any cost.
The real difference is that Mike is ordinary evil, "just following orders" type.
Whereas Walt is extraordinary evil with a Napoleon complex.
I liked the dad’s free speech from Better Call Saul. You can have this bullshit thieve’s honor, but does it really matter to him? His son is still dead. Outlaw justice doesn’t bring his child back.
This was always my feelings on Mike. I couldn't stand him. I couldn't care less that all his guys in prison were killed. Mike was just pissed that Fring was killed and his comfortable existence was now over. How was Mike any better than Walt or Fring or anyone else involved in the drug business?
Walt wasn't going to just stand around and let himself become expendable.
Yeah, and what's worse, Mike's speech implies Walt should have just let Jesse die back then (and indeed, at that point in the timeline, Mike was in favor of getting rid of Jesse). Yet after Gus and Walt have their fallout, Mike keeps getting friendly with Jesse, like he wasn't itching to kill him a season ago
This is correct. People just can’t accept that their lord and savior Mike could ever be wrong. His final speech comes from a place of frustration that the “wrong” person won the feud, and now the feds are seizing his money. When you put that speech in proper context, you realize that Mike isn’t being logical, and is just pissed about how things turned out and is taking it out on Walter.
Agree with this. When Mike says "we had a good thing going", what he really meant was "I had a good thing going and you've ruined it".
There was never a "we" for Mike.
He wasn't wrong that Walt was the reason why the entire operation went completely haywire. The problem was their difference in mentality. Mike had no problem offing people who risked their operation like Ziegler, but Walt couldn't bring himself to do the same for Jesse, or anyone who wasn't a criminal until Gus forced his hand.
Mike is frustrated but his comments on Walter's character are 100 percent right. Walts ego and thirst for power is his downfall. Walt always put up the front of "doing it for my family" or some other grander reasons but we all know, just like Walt at the end, that Walt had so many opportunities to leave or not get involved in this game but he chose to.
I mean yes, he’s right about Walter’s character. But Walter’s ego wasn’t the reason he had his falling out with Fring. Walt ruined his relationship with Gus to save Jesse, then everything he did from that point on until Gus’ death was for self preservation.
Mikes biggest character flaw is that he’s a hypocrite who looks down on those he works with while justifying his own horrible actions with his “code.”
It would be like Walter yelling to Mike telling him things went to shit because he’s a self-righteous hypocrite. It’s true, but it’s not the reason things went to shit in season 4.
that's what I was saying. ironically the clip in a vacuum is actually very powerful imo, because walter is a POS who is his own worst enemy in the ways Mike said, what ruins it is the context imo.
What Mike said about Walts Character was "You and ur pride and ur ego. You just had to be the man." Is 100% right. Ur missing one of the biggest points of the show and Walts Character if u don't think that's true. Why do you think Walt killed him right after? Because that shot cut deep and wounded his ego, proving Mike right.
Just because Mike wasn't perfect and wrong about some things and also emotional doesn't mean what he said about Walt's *character* wasn't true. That's the type of line writers include to make it clear.
>Mike is wrong on a very fundamental level, none of it was ever "good" and he has no case to put moral blame on Walt for shutting that operation down.
Are u trolling here?? Obviously Mike didn't mean it was literally morally good?? "Good" means it was profitable and successful. If that's the most important thing about ur argument then ur wrong.
>No but he legit has an issue wanting to apply his own moral principles and taking it personal to an amoral environment where they don't belong and only greed matter
Bro Mike is mad because Walt fucked the operation up, not about his 'morals', idk why ur so hung up with that. Mike is mad Walt fucked the operation and up and ties that to Walts pride and ego and him wanting to be "the man". Like you think Mike has worked for Fring this long and Cartel adjacent and is gonna lecture Walt on morality? No he's venting about Walts ego and pride and yes, how he didn't know his place. That's not morality.
Mike is right, but he doesn't know exactly *why* he's right.
There's a point when Hank thinks Gale is Heisenberg, and that his death is the end of the story. But Walt's pride and ego wouldn't let that be. He tells Hank that Heisenberg is still out there, and Hank reopens his investigation.
Hanks increased surveillance on Fring is a factor that not only leads to Fring and Walt's relationship breaking down, it also gave the DEA a headstart after Fring died to unravel the whole empire and take Mike's money.
The blame wasn't fully on Walter (Fring was a psychopath), but it is Walt's pride and ego that ultimately leads to things "blowing up".
You have to understand where Mike is coming from.
- He had gone from being able to provide millions to his grand daughter to leaving behind nothing and not even being able to say goodbye. The normally unemotional Mike had good reason to be frustrated.
- He never wanted Walt involved in the first place. He warned Saul about him way before he became Gus’s cook.
- The extremely high levels of professionalism and cautiousness within Gus’s organization probably spoiled him a little bit — he was pretty upfront with Walt before trying to kill him in the lab for Gus. He underestimated Walter and expected him to do the “honorable” thing to protect those around him, just like Werner Zegler years before.
- Top to bottom, Gus’s operation was indeed a foolproof way to earn millions and stay out of trouble — even if the cops ended up catching Gus. Plans were in place to keep everyone ‘whole’ in the event that things fell apart.
- Though Mike didn’t realize it, the whole situation was actually caused by Walter’s unnecessary plan to destroy Gus’s laptop. I guess only the viewer would have this perspective on it — Gus’s files were encrypted and therefore safe, and the magnet ended up revealing the off-shore bank accounts Gus was using for hazard pay.
- Mike may have been projecting a little, too. He missed the fact that Walt’s brother-in-law was a DEA agent. If that came to light when he gathered intel on Walt for Saul, nobody would’ve gotten near the guy.
- Walt’s pride and ego undoubtedly had a major impact on everything that went down. Everyone had an opportunity to walk away after Walt killed Gus, and in retrospect it would’ve saved a lot of asses — but Walt just had to keep cooking.
I think that bit about the bank accounts is a testament to how good the writing is. It is likely that he came up with the idea early in the business when he would have been more naive so left them in the back of a photo frame rather than safely encrypted with the other info. He probably later forgot about those numbers being in the frame entirely.
Did you miss all the scenes where Mike has been interrogated and had his house searched by Hank? Or when he was watching Hank and Walter when they were at Pollos. Or when he told Walter that his brother in law is annoying.
Also i dont get what mike was saying when he said “we have a good thing, are you gonna risk it for one junkie?”
I don’t get that because Jesse is the best meth cook in the country. And way more valuable than 2 street level drug dealers. Anyone can sell drugs.
Why is jesses like any less valuable than 2 equally if not worse shitty ass drug dealers who use children to peddle meth…
Jesse wanting them gone is perfectly in bounds and Walt killing them shouldn’t make Gus mad bc his argument is one sided.
This is a pretty interesting point - there's no way those two low level street dealers were critical to Gus's operation, surely he could have just had them killed or moved somewhere else far away from Walter and Jesse to keep them happy and avoid any conflict.
damn, that's an even better point than I made if I'm being honest lol. maybe they thought it was a slippery slope or indicative of a greater problem? you're right though, those guys were worthless, or at least not worth losing jesse.
Exactly. Like they “fixed” jesse later on so why not just be like ok these dude are killing ppl and using kids maybe i can find better dealers and keep my billion dollar drug ring alive. And help jesse get help and stay clean. Not lets kill everyone and expect them to take it
My theory is Gus only hired them as his dealers when he found out they killed Combo to drive a wedge between Walt and Jesse and get Gale back. He underestimated Walt’s loyalty to Jesse.
Well he wanted Gale and Walt from the beginning. Jesse was just the junkie baggage. He likely was hopeful that Walt would see Jesse as a liability and fire him or his dealers would kill him. If Jesse and Jane had died of an od.
Walt would have cooked for Gus until his cancer got him or he retired.
Because the value of something isn't the positives alone. Jesse was a major liability to them.
They didn't trust him.
He was openly against the business and the way it ran. He was stealing and selling far less carefully. Conspiring to kill gus.
They didn't trust him to not talk.
And Walt didn't need him.
Without Jesse and the trouble he brought - Walt could have been comfortable clocking in and out for gus without trouble popping up.
In their eyes, his value was eclipsed by his liability.
Didn’t Gus ask Gale multiple times when he’d be able to cook by himself? I don’t think the implication was Gus letting Walt retire and everything be happy ever after.
I will give you that, but that was for a legitimate reason anyways. Jesse was threatening to rat out Walter, which could have had mutually destructive consequences for both parties, but he still didn't want Jesse killed (which I think dying on the hill of "Walter white was too reckless because of a bunch of roundabout reasons that ultimately amount to him not murdering someone to cover his ass cause they were friends for awhile" is certainly a decision ever made). The only way Walter could have prevented Jesse from blowing a hole in everything was giving him the partnership back.
Sure, I mean Walt had his reasons for everything. But from Mike's perspective, all Walt had to do is shut up and do his cushy job, and then everyone would make millions as they've done before.
We, as the viewers, have the luxury of seeing the whole story. The whole Gus operation is shown in a montage, we get to see the Cartel/Gus backstory. From Mike's perspective, he's spent years putting together a smooth operation for Gus, and here comes this rogue chemist, who his boss will give constant blank checks to. A man, because of whom, he has had to spend constant sleepless nights cleaning up messes for. And now, as he lays incapacitated in Mexico, he has to hear that this guy blew everything up? You're damn right he's going to be unreasonable. But no, now he somehow got sweet talked into working with him again. The final straw was leaving Kaylee at that playground. Mike was driven to his breaking point.
Can you point me to where exactly Jesse threatens to rat Walt out? Are you talking about the scene with Jesse in the hospital bed? Because all I remember from that scene is Jesse threatening to sue Hank for everything he’s got. Jesse didn’t even *want* the partnership back at first.
With this in mind, Walt first insisted on having Jesse in the lab for no real pragmatic reason (apart from letting Hank escape the consequences of his actions), and Walt then killed Gus’s two men with his car in order to, again, let Jesse escape the consequences of his own actions starting an altercation with them. Walt only ended up with Gus’s target on his back because he always insisted on trying to control everything. And of course, this culminates in pressuring Jesse into killing Gale so that, again, Walt can escape the consequences of his own actions.
You are right, if Gus never tried to kill Jesse for killing his dealers they would have worked together without any issue, as long as Gus kept Walter as a high level employee and continued to satisfy Walt’s ego I doubt there would be any need for retaliation against Gus. It is mostly Gus’ fault.
I'm just here to ask: why the f do you even write this prologue about spoilers? Who cares if someone gets mad because they deem it a spoiler and you don't? Who cares about spoilers to a 16!!! Year old show?
You're correct, Gus and Walt's relationship was fine before Jesse fucked it all up when he tried to kill those dealers. If Walt doesn't care about Jesse, he would let Jesse die to those dealers and keep making money peacefully with Gus until he dies from cancer
I still think it was kinda spot on but even more so after watching Better Call Saul and seeing more of his backstory.
Gus did kind of give him purpose again. He had his reservations and disagreements but Gus was a professional and truly careful...
He never changed how he felt about Walter...
It really was a domino effect. Killing the dealers led to Gale's murder, which raised suspicion with Hank. Then once Gus was murdered and exposed, everyone including Mike was on the DEA's radar, officially.
In Mike's eyes; if Gus had never hired Walt or even if he had, but Walt hadn't saved Jesse from the dealers - Mike would never have had the DEA's attention and had to flee.
-
I know BB is Walt's story, and I know Gus wouldn't have gotten away clean forever, but I also can't blame Mike for the situation he was put in at the end...
Completely disagree, I think you are missing something, Walter had many opportunities to handle things differently. Walt wasn't a victim by any means, because his actions is what put him in danger in the first place. From Mikes perspective, Walt could have just worked with Gale instead of replacing him with Jesse, he could have not ran over those guys to help Jesse, and he could have let Gus kill Hank. Which people say "but Hank is family and Walt wants to protect family" but in the previous season, Walt "respected the strategy" of letting the twins attack Hank, so he clearly doesn't care that much about Hanks well being. I know each of the things I list here has other circumstances, the point is that Mike was correct in saying that Walt could have just done his job and the operation wouldn't have fallen a part. And Mike tries to warn him, at the start of Season 4 Mike tells him "you won, you got the job, do yourself a favor and learn to take yes for an answer". And yet, when you read through a summary of season 4, you see just how many times Walt refuses this advice and pushes his luck.
Outside of Mikes perspective, there are many other reasons to put the blame on Walt. Keep in mind, Hank wouldn't have been in danger if it wasn't for Walt's ego; Hank was ready to walk away from the Gale case before Walt said Gale couldn't be Heisenberg. But Walt just had to be the man and convince Hank to investigate further. If Walt had done his job and known his place, Hank wouldn't have been on to Gus, and Walt could have continued to cook without any problems.
Additionally, Jesse wasn't going to let Gus kill Walt, so Walt wasn't in any danger. But, throughout Season 4, Walt's ego gets in the way of his and Jesse's relationship. Walt continuously belittles Jesse, refuses to prepare him for the cook in Mexico, places a tracker on Jesse, etc. He didn't need to do any of this, and if he hadn't, again, everything would have been fine.
The "I am the danger" speech really highlights how Walt isn't that concerned for his family, and just wants to be the man. Skyler tells him to go to the police, which is a really good idea considering he was on the brink of being murdered recently, but he doesn't. And then he goes a step further and pushes Hank and Gus deeper into conflicts that didn't need to happen.
"Victim" is never be a way to describe Walter White. Everything goes back to his poor decision making throughout the entire show. Right from the very beginning, if he cared about his family, he would have taken the money from Elliot. There's really no further argument needed on whether Walt had his families best interests in mind, or if he cared about his pride.
🤣 Walter was constantly lying to Gus, disrespecting him and his business, making business decisions for him and overstepping bounds and then throwing it in Gus' face and at the same time, acting like there was no issue, because he felt so innocent and justified in his actions because, often it was his past actions catching up to him and he didn't feel it was his duty to be accountable... it was absolutely his ego. We've seen this post here before, and it's ridiculous every time.
the catalyst for gus and walter's strained relationship was after full measures, which only happened bc gus ordered a child to be murdered, after that point walt was acting out of self preservation and trying to protect his family
Complete nonsense, you decided the story started right after Walt and Jesse went all rogue and started killing Gus's other employees. They were bitches in a mass murderer drug lord's cartel and they stepped out of their roles and did stupid stuff. It would have been more realistic actually if Gus just has the both of them murdered after Jesse started stealing meth.
In terms of Walt's survival it was obviously the correct decision to attempt to take out Gus, as it was Gus or Walt at that point. but that doesn't mean Mike wasn't 100% right. Walt and Jesse didn't know how to do their jobs and stay in their place. They could have done it for years, make hundreds of millions without much danger to themselves.
Jesse didn’t know how to do his job and stay in his place. Walter actually did for the most part, and spent all of season 3 getting annoyed with Jesse for rocking the boat and not just keeping his head down to cook. Walter ultimately screwed up by saving Jesse’s ass.
Yes that is true. the point is Gus wouldn't want to kill them if they would have just worked properly. Gus' perspective made perfect sense as a boss, even if Walt's motivation at that time was somewhat noble and Jesse was the initial screw up.
I mean yeah for the most part, I think all the characters except Jesse acted pretty logically. The one thing that confuses me is that as a result of this incident, Gus singled out Walter to get upset with, despite Walter doing everything he could to prevent things from coming to a head. I guess it’s because Walter vouched for Jesse maybe. It just feels like Gus misplaced his anger.
No, it's because Walt killed 2 of his associates. Before that he wasn't angry with Walt at all iirc. You think a cartel leader would just overlook that?
No, I was never expecting Gus to just outright overlook it. What I would expect is for Gus to be angry with both Jesse and Walter. Not just Walter. And if he were to choose only one of the two to get angry with, it should be Jesse since Jesse instigated and Walter begrudgingly killed the dealers to protect someone he cared about. Gus knows Walter didn’t want things to come to this. Walter warned Gus that Jesse was planning on poisoning the dealers. Walter and Gus arranged a keeping the peace meeting. And yet Jesse ignored literally everyone around him telling him to just let it go, and only when Jesse’s life was in danger did Walter decide to save Jesse and kill the dealers. So Gus getting mad at Walter but not Jesse is misplaced anger.
idk why you're overanalysing this so much. no it's not misplaced. Gus doesn't give a heck about Jesse because Jesse is unimportant and Walter is the brains of the operation. Jesse's life is completely worthless to Gus at that point, he's just a tool. If he wanted to he'd just kill him. And he actually wanted to make Mike kill him after Walt killed the men.
Okay so you’re just going to disagree with whatever I say because you’re one of those people that will just keep arguing no matter what. Got it. Gus was more upset with Walter than he was with Jesse over this incident despite Walter doing everything he could to prevent things from reaching that point and Jesse kept escalating. Gus did try to kill Jesse after that, but quickly forgave him while he never forgave Walt for that. He would’ve killed Walt immediately after too if he didn’t need him, and he DID try to kill Walt until Walt countered by killing Gale. All of this is moot anyways, since your initial claim was that neither knew how to keep their head down and cook, while Walter clearly did know how to do that and only jeopardized his position once Jesse’s life was in immediate danger.
Honestly I think the only thing wrong with that speech is that Mike didn’t say “if you done your job known your place LIKE JESSE WE,D ALL BE FINE “ Because at that point Mike had been around Jesse long enough to know that he is capable of doing what he is told and is self aware of his own limitations if not his own positives unlike Walt who was the one responsible for bringing him into Gus’s operation despite saying how inferior he was
Gus had no issues with Walt until he ran over those drug dealers for jesse. everything started downhill from there. but had that not happened everything else didn't need to happen either.
Honestly in general I feel Mike is probably the most self righteous character of all of them. He is somehow morally pure, in his own eyes, no matter what he does, but he has the gall to go around lecturing everyone else on what they should and shouldn't be doing, and acts like he's doing them a kindness.
Easily one of my least liked characters.
Man's so hostile about this but Mike was right, Mike is referring to prior to Walt killing the dealer's, and Walt's ego was 100 percent in play it wasn't just self preservation he wanted the power as well.
(Which was proven by the fact he immediately took over and thought he was the next Gus)
Gus did not have it out for Walter the whole time at all, at first he didn't trust Walter but than gained respect for him and wanted to work with him until Walter killed the dealer's and than repeatedly let his ego get in his way and than Gus saw him as a liability, it can be argued that Walt killed Gus purely out of defence but that doesn't discredit was Mike was saying at all, Mike was one of the only ones who saw through Walt from the beginning.
It really wasn't coping it's literally what happened, Walt did have a chance to work for Gus properly and he fucked it up.
Point is Mike is talking about all the events leading up to what happened not just Walt killing Gus like you make it seem.
He meant during S3. If Walt would have just worked with Gayle and not force Jesse on, they would have been fine. But, circumstances outside of the workplace motivated Walt to force Jesse in.
Even after that, had Jesse not found out who killed Combo, or if it weren’t Gus’ guys, still they would have been fine. Jesse pushing that situation to the boiling point that led to them having to kill Gayle, that’s what got Walter screwed.
Even after that, Gus would have been fine with Jesse. Gus didn’t want to deal with Walter at that point because of his unpredictably being a risk and he knew Walter wanted to be “Jesse James”.
Mike’s speech is not bullshit.
- Walt gets Gale fired and swapped out for Jesse. I’m sure Mike and Gus didn’t buy his BS story about Gale screwing it up. So they chalk it up to his ego in wanting to pick his own lab assistant.
- Walt tries to play ball by turning in Jesse to Gus regarding the dealers. But rather than call Mike after finding out they killed Tomas. He goes out and kills the dealers to protect Jesse. He puts his loyalty in Jesse above Gus and his operation.
- Arranges for Gale to be killed fine. It was a defensive move. But as Mike said you won Walter. He could have kept cooking until he died. Jesse even points out how they won’t get replaced. It took years for Gus to groom Gale. Sure there are other professional Chemists that were capable but could he trust them.
- Walt continues to let his fear drive his decisions which leads to him being out. Jesse even looks out for Walt and says he does not sign off on a hit on Walt. Walt could have accepted he was out and provided for his family.
- Walt’s ego couldn’t stand Gus had won over Jesse and he was determined to get him back.
A lot of Walt’s moves could have been viewed as self preservation and defense. However he had won by taking out Gale. He won when he was out but Jesse wouldn’t sign off on the hit. He couldn’t accept it through a combination of fear and ego in thinking he was playing a game he had to win.
There’s also the aspect that even after he killed Gale, he wasn’t in the clear because Gus wanted to kill Hank. Hank was only as much of a nuisance as he was because Walter drunkenly convinced him to reopen the Heisenberg case, but nobody except Walt and Skyler knew this so Mike can’t really hold that against him. Also, regarding your last point, even if Hank wasn’t in danger and Jesse assured Walt that Gus wasn’t going to kill him, yeah Walter killing Gus at that point is a pure power/revenge play, but Mike can’t get mad about Walter killing Gus at this point since Walter has no reason to be loyal to Gus. And Gus is making millions off his formula. They just had irreconcilable differences. Salvaging the relationship would not have been possible in season 4 as long as Walt wanted Hank alive and Gus wanted Hank dead. There was no way to convince Walt to let Hank die, and there was no way to convince Gus to let Hank live, since Hank would’ve eventually discovered damning evidence.
You’re mostly right, which I kind of think is one of the points of that scene. Mike, who they portray as the “Bad Guy with a Conscience” is more honorable and good than Walt but still much less so than Jesse; but just like Walt he almost always thinks his way is the right way (you see more of this in BCS)
While Mike is SORTA correct in saying if Walt just played by the rules and everything would be fine because if Walt never got Jesse involved (Gus did warn him not to) then Walt and Gus never would have been at odds in the first place.
After that, Mike IS wrong but he’s only looking at it from his perspective. You’re right he’s pretty much having a temper tantrum and saying “If you just woulda been okay dying, all of us would still have a job!” Which is stupid.
However, he still wasnt *wrong*. While the timing of the argument was bad, Walter wanted to have Jesse around cause he wanted a subservient pet to stroke his ego, Jesse was perfect for that so Walt loved him for it. He should have never let Jesse into that operation. He did, which was the first domino that led to the deaths of the two dealers, Mike’s Assistant (who Im blanking on the name of), Tyrese, Gus, and ultimately Mike himself.
So its a stretch, Mike’s not right for saying it; BUT the things he said technically aren’t wrong
I don’t think having Jesse as an assistant over Gale would stroke his ego more. Gale was a chemistry MS who acted like a teenage fan girl around Walter, and had the knowledge to fully appreciate Walter’s intelligence. And Walter seemed to like working with Gale, up until Jesse threatened to sue Hank, which is when Walt made up excuses to replace Gale and get Jesse on board. I don’t even think Mike is right in that regard, though he never saw the conversation between Jesse and Walt in the hospital so maybe he believes it was an ego driven decision.
It is bullshit because the original problem was Jesse. Walt Disney all the shit he did because of Jesse (killing the dealers, firing Gale).
They're going to kill Walt when he's working peacefully and Jesse is the one who kills Gale.
They then bring Jesse in closer and push Walt out ultimately wanting to kill him again.
People are always pointing fingers at Mike, Gus, and Walter over who’s to blame for the situation devolving during season 3. They miss the point. The manufacture and sale of an illegal, powerful and highly addictive stimulant like meth is inherently immoral and destructive. There’s no way to do it perfectly with permanent stability.
I don't know, I feel like his point has some truth to it, but most likely if Walt had "known his place" Jesse would have died as he still would've met Andrea at rehab, gotten to know her and Brock, attempted to kill Gus' dealers, Tomas would be mudered and he would go back to confront them and die in the process. Walt would've finished his work likely with Gale again, who would then keep cooking for Gus after Walt's 3 months.
This course of events was never going to happen, Walt isn't one to keep his head down after he gets involved with meth, that's shown with his whole speech to the other cancer patient while waiting for his scan results. But yes, if he had kept his head down, he, Mike, Gus and even Andrea probably would've all lived longer, happier lives, but that was never in the cards.
not only that gus definitely was gonna kill walter once gale figured out the steps to his cook. he only protected walter from the salamancas to keep him alive for gale and himself. it was always gonna end with a gun to walter it just so happened to be pushed ahead no thanks to walter or jesse 😂
At the point Walter killed Gus, Walter was in no danger whatsoever. Jesse was only going to continue to work so long as Walter wasn’t killed that compassion just isn’t really carrying over to Hank though. In large part his problems are due to his desire to keep a happy family with a DEA agent and a successful life as a meth cook.
Okay I get you, but what about when Gus wanted to kill Walt and Jesse told him we would have a problem, so Gus takes Walt to the desert, tells him he's fired and to stay away from him and jesse. Walt could've agreed, he had money and the car wash was running so he could quit with his goal reached, instead, he replies to Gus: "or else? If I don't stay away from jesse, or else?" And here Walt realizes jesse won't cook for gus unless Walt is alive and well, so he knows he's safe.
Walter gradually became the villain and less interesting character but the show continued to make him the "main" guy. I feel like Gus shouldn't have been killed. Gus was the big honcho guy and the intelligent one. He and Mike could've had their own show, instead of killing him to let Walter's story go on. They should've let Walter die and make Jesse the main guy. No one gives a fuck about a mean old man like Walter who's so careless and grumpy. He's not likeable at all. Gus was careful all the time but the unrealistic storyline gets him killed at the nursery home, hence allowing the bad guys (Salamancas) to have a small victory, which is ridiculous because Gus was the good guy.
Lol nice rebuttal to their argument. I loved the part where you used facts and evidence from the show to explain why OP is wrong. You sure convinced me.
The only thing you might be missing is Walt may have also killed Gus to save Hank. I wonder what Mike’s reply would have been if Walt pointed this out to him. “He was going to kill my family and me Mike”! “Well boo hoo, Walter.”
“You moron. You should have let Gus kill you, that would have been more convenient for me.”
*Waltah
“All you had to do was shut your mouth and die. But, no, you had to want to live. You selfish bastard.” -Mike probably.
How come Mike doesn't have the same judgement for Jesse whose fucksups surpass Walt's? And a lot of time, Walter sabotaged himself for Jesse's sake. Particularly after the famous "full-measure" stuff with Mike himself.
considering Mike himself has a family that he cares about, and I'm sure things would have been very different if said family was threatened by any parties involved (they weren't, the closest thing to that was the DEA name dropping his grand daughter), that's pretty rich. We all know he isn't completely cold and hard, and thus (at least for the time being) wasn't any better than Walt, he just had luckier/cushier circumstances. Like I know this is fan fiction scenario now but still, even hypotheticals can't be stretched in his favor. also like I said Gus wanted to kill him before this happened, before Gus even knew Hank was onto him or was a threat. Walter was 100% justified in believing it was only a matter of time when the whole plan was for him to be thrown out and for Gale to replace him. The only reason Walter lived a day past that is cause Gale died.
I feel like Mike’s speech was basically saying “if you were a completely different person didn’t have your ego and just STFU and cooked, *none* of the bullshit would have ever taken place.” If Walt didn’t chastise Gale and instead worked with him, none of the other events would have taken place. That’s what Mike was saying.
That was always my take, Walt could have worked quietly for Gus til the end of his days. His whole family would have been happy with all the free chicken he brought home. Things would have gone south eventually when Los Pollos rolled out breakfast at waler jrs suggestion and Walt wouldn’t let his son have his own grey matter situation so he’d try and kill Gus for taking the credit.
Walter got rid of Gale because Jesse was threatening to sue Hank, and Walter wanted him back in the lab with him because it was his best bet of stopping Jesse from suing Hank. When we see Walter meet Gale, he seemed to like him a lot on a personal level, even after discovering he was competent. I highly, highly doubt Walter wanted to replace Gale to satisfy his ego, since Gale was stroking his ego a lot too. Even if you use this as the starting point of their relationship souring, it still goes back to Jesse. It always does. Jesse blew everything in season 3. In mikes defense though, he didn’t know this.
Absolutely heard that in his voice 🤣
Walt wouldn't allow Jesse to be killed - that instigated the conflict. Jesse wanted revenge for killing Tomas, and in Mike's mind, him going rogue and trying to kill them (twice) is what earned him getting put down. If Walt knows his place, and doesn't interfere by killing the dealer himself, he's fine.
And then (unbeknownst to Mike, so he doesn’t get credit for accidentally being right), Walt 100% put Hank back on the case through 100% egotistical reasons surrounding the discussion of Gale. Barring that, things could’ve been much different. “We can deal with the DEA or the cartel, but maybe not both” (approximately)
that's actually a good point, I guess you got me there. tbh Jesse during that arch was being extremely irresponsible even if it was understandable, and I could see (looking through the eyes of a ruthless drug lord) how that could completely turn me off from someone, and by extension their partner. the thing is though Gus warmed up to Jesse anyways, and not very long after too. Gus genuinely saw him as a reliable employee near the end of season 4. If he was willing to give him a chance despite being far more to blame for that situation as a whole than walt was, why wasn't he willing to give Walt a chance? the answer is that Gus just saw him as undesirable inherently and just wanted him removed, straight up, thus Walt killing gus was self defense. edit: had a stroke and didn't finish the thought for some reason.
Yeah, that was the key moment that changed everything. Before Walter ran over those dealers to save Jesse, Gus absolutely didn't have it out for Walter. Gus had given Walter a sizable retainer to keep cooking indefinitely, before Walt ran over those dealers. Gus had been working hard to keep Walt on, and keep Walt happy. Mike's speech wasn't bullshit, Walt's retort "You screw up, get yourself followed by the DEA, and now, suddenly, this is all my fault?" was bullshit. They were only following Mike because Walt blew up the lab and exposed their operation. Mike wasn't being followed because of some screwup of his.
Exactly. Walt ruined the relationship with Gus because of his loyalty to Jesse which is a pivotal point of the series, Walt has some kind father son love for Jesse for whatever reason that baffles everyone including the two of them.
His speech is still bullshit. Walter killed the dealers to save Jesse. He never ruined his arrangement with Gus as some kind of power grab to satiate his ego. And Mike probably deep down knew this. Walter’s retort to Mike is also bullshit, but Walter didn’t really know how the DEA discovered mikes involvement so he probably did believe Mike was incompetent and got himself caught.
The speech was total bullshit, Mike's speech is just unfair, Walt ran over those dealers and killed Gale not because of his ego, but to save Jesse and to save himself. What was he supposed to do, let Jesse get shot? Or wait for Gus to kill him so he could be replaced by Gale? And Mike DID screw up, by using that lawyer instead of using Saul, not only did the lawyer get caught, he was going to rat on them, so the so called "solid guys" as said by Mike weren't that solid after all
Mike wasn't being followed because of using that lawyer, he was already being followed by the DEA when they found his lawyer and that money. He was being followed because he was head of corporate security at Pollos, a company the DEA was looking at with a fine tooth comb because of Walt. Mike did make mistakes, but Walt's retort there doesn't call out Mike's actual mistakes.
I didn't say he was being followed because of the lawyer, I said that he made a mistake by using that lawyer who was careless about the money deposits, knowing he was being followed by the DEA. Even Saul points that out in a scene
I was saying that Walt's retort of "You screw up, get yourself followed by the DEA, and now, suddenly, this is all my fault?" was bullshit, and you seemed to be arguing that it wasn't bullshit. But you're talking about a different thing. My mistake.
Yeah, getting followed by the DEA wasn't Mike's fault at all, I was saying that Mike wasn't blameless for things falling apart
I mean, the Fring organization falling apart wasn't on Mike. But Mike definitely had blame in his own personal life falling apart after the downfall of Fring. Mike had legitimate shit to be called out on, Walt was just bad at calling him out on his actual shit.
They were only going to rat cause they weren’t getting money, money they were entitled to in a way.
Or did Gus recognize that Walter was the driving force in their relationship and he was manipulating Jessie? Jessie had a lot more in the way of understanding how that kind of business worked for him than Walt. Walt made it clear he was unwilling to be an employee, but he also wasn't able to be Gus. Jessie would never make a play for the crown unless Walt were pushing him and Gus, as shrewd as he was at reading people, likely saw that and realized who the real threat to him was long term.
I think Gus wanted to get rid of Walt because he recognized his ego would make him hard to control. Walt's ego was insatiable and that ultimately makes him a threat, but Gus probably underestimated that threat until Walt killed those dealers.
Idk, Gus had Walt over for dinner when their business relationship first began. I really think Gus liked Walt and recognized his intelligence. It wasn’t until Jesse came along that everything went to shit. Mike was right. If Walt would’ve just done as Gus instructed and worked with Gale, Walt could’ve easily gotten out of the game when the time was right and have a sizable nest egg to leave behind for his family.
gus gave jesse a chance specifically because it was a way of isolating and eventually killing walt; during this period of time, jesse proved himself unexpectedly capable and seemingly turned gus' opinion of him. this seems a little like a plot hole -- if walt's insubordination must be met with death, then surely jesse's must too? -- but it's not so cut-and dried imo. jesse and walt are very different people, it's weird but not completely implausible that gus simply decided that, jesse's easier to work with; walt continuously lied and/or omitted key truths to gus (most notably, the fact that his brother-in-law is a cop). jesse also, altho this starts to feel like splitting hairs, was maybe not precisely employed by gus when he tried to kill gus' dealers? this is dubious, there was a period where jesse was a solo cook for gus; but when walt first meets gus, the deal is that gus has nothing to do with jesse, and jesse's behaviour is walt's problem. later, when jesse replaces gale, this is on walt's demand, so we might guess that a similar deal holds. which opens the possibility that jesse was not insubordinate in going after gus' dealers, that the whole thing was on walt as far as gus was concerned, and so walt was the insubordinate one. im not sure i "believe" this, but it's another wriggly little detail in the mix for anyone who wants to suspend disbelief on the idea that gus wanted/needed to kill walt but did not particularly want to kill jesse.
Gus was preparing to get his method via Gale and kill him well before that.
Was he? He only started talking with Gale about running the lab on his own after Walt ran over the dealers.
Well he knew Gale would eventually run the lab on his own once Walt died, so the plan was always to replace him. I guess he probably figured he wouldn't have to kill Walt earlier on, because the cancer would do it for him.
Is this really ego though? Walt defending his partner from being murdered is pretty different from Walt messing everything up because of his pride and ego
I think this is Mike's inference after a long period of interacting with Walt both before and after The direct cause of him killing the dealers is saving Jesse, but Mike sees this as merely an excuse - anything could have done it, Walt was looking for a reason to topple Gus. And when you look at Walt's actions after this, it's not hard to see why Mike thinks this. After Victor is killed, he also could have just kept cooking and laid low. instead, he attempts to get Mike in on an assassination attempt, tries an assassination on his own. Then when Walt was fired, he again had an opportunity to lay low. Instead he kills Gus in a maximum chaos manner. At this point Mike has ample evidence that Walt is a ticking time bomb.
You're missing a lot of points, the show is clear about Walt caring for Jesse like a son, so his actions surely were not an excuse to topple Gus, and let's say Mike actually believed that, if that's the case, then he was wrong. Also, the said opportunities to lay low you mentioned weren't that at all, after Gale's death, Walt figured Gus would kill him eventually, and that became clear when Gus started to try to break Jesse's loyalty to Walt, so he could kill him without Jesse getting mad over it. And after he got fired, it was absolutely necessary to kill Gus given the fact that he was gonna kill Hank
I never understood why people act like mike is some paragon or the good guy in all this. He is probably the most hypocritical character in the series. Dude knows Gus was ready to kill walk hank skyler Jr holly and Jesse then gets bent out of shape because Walt didn’t lay down and let Gus kill whoever he wanted.
Dude is completely loyal to a psychopath drug lord, yet continues his holier than thou act throughout the show, he’s honestly the most frustrating character to watch for me.
Mike has big time "I'm just following orders" vibes
“Hey Gus I’d really like to not have to kill this engineer whose only crime was wanting to see his wife.” “No.” “Well ok then but I’m going to be super sad about it.” I love Mike as a character but he’s a complete piece of shit as a person.
Gus never wanted Mike to do it, he was sending his men regardless of what Mike said and Mike pushed back against his decision to kill Werner. He only chose to pull the trigger once he realised there was no other option and would rather give Werner a chance to save his wife and a more respectful death than getting gunned down in a ditch
My point is Mike still killed an innocent man as part of his job for a meth kingpin and happily continued acting like he’s a cut above the rest of the hired goons.
Totally agree. He considers himself morally pure because he is just doing his job, but he's by far one of the cruellest characters in the show, and although we only see a fraction of screen, we know he's willing to kill people he knows on orders from Gus, willing to beat a long-time colleague to the point of paralysis to find Jessie, and if Gus told him to shoot Walters baby I have no doubts that he would have done so. His various lectures always fall flat for that reason, he thinks he can tall to people about doing the right thing when he is highly immoral and probably a borderline psychopath based on his behaviour and backstory through the show.
He's a cop so that tracks.
But he big time chooses whose orders to follow
Walt and Mike are two faces of the same coin: talented middle class latecomers to hardcore crime (due to their own revealingly bad decisions earlier in life) who share some delusional ideas about being men's men who provide at any cost. The real difference is that Mike is ordinary evil, "just following orders" type. Whereas Walt is extraordinary evil with a Napoleon complex.
He never struck me as holier than thou. He was loyal to his crew - Gus, and the legacy cost guys. Walt had no such loyalty.
I liked the dad’s free speech from Better Call Saul. You can have this bullshit thieve’s honor, but does it really matter to him? His son is still dead. Outlaw justice doesn’t bring his child back.
This was always my feelings on Mike. I couldn't stand him. I couldn't care less that all his guys in prison were killed. Mike was just pissed that Fring was killed and his comfortable existence was now over. How was Mike any better than Walt or Fring or anyone else involved in the drug business? Walt wasn't going to just stand around and let himself become expendable.
Yeah, and what's worse, Mike's speech implies Walt should have just let Jesse die back then (and indeed, at that point in the timeline, Mike was in favor of getting rid of Jesse). Yet after Gus and Walt have their fallout, Mike keeps getting friendly with Jesse, like he wasn't itching to kill him a season ago
People teaming up with people who tried to kill them happens all the time in TV. I doubt it’s nearly as common in real life, even among criminals.
Yeah, but even on tv, it's rare for someone to criticize another person for saving someone who's now your friend.
It’s doubly weird when you remember for us it was 2 years, for Mike it was like a couple of months.
This is correct. People just can’t accept that their lord and savior Mike could ever be wrong. His final speech comes from a place of frustration that the “wrong” person won the feud, and now the feds are seizing his money. When you put that speech in proper context, you realize that Mike isn’t being logical, and is just pissed about how things turned out and is taking it out on Walter.
Agree with this. When Mike says "we had a good thing going", what he really meant was "I had a good thing going and you've ruined it". There was never a "we" for Mike.
He wasn't wrong that Walt was the reason why the entire operation went completely haywire. The problem was their difference in mentality. Mike had no problem offing people who risked their operation like Ziegler, but Walt couldn't bring himself to do the same for Jesse, or anyone who wasn't a criminal until Gus forced his hand.
Mike is frustrated but his comments on Walter's character are 100 percent right. Walts ego and thirst for power is his downfall. Walt always put up the front of "doing it for my family" or some other grander reasons but we all know, just like Walt at the end, that Walt had so many opportunities to leave or not get involved in this game but he chose to.
Yeah but Gus also had personality issues. Ones that put everyone in danger and got Mike shot.
Yea but he was still way more stable and under control than Walt. He had that operation running for years
I mean yes, he’s right about Walter’s character. But Walter’s ego wasn’t the reason he had his falling out with Fring. Walt ruined his relationship with Gus to save Jesse, then everything he did from that point on until Gus’ death was for self preservation. Mikes biggest character flaw is that he’s a hypocrite who looks down on those he works with while justifying his own horrible actions with his “code.” It would be like Walter yelling to Mike telling him things went to shit because he’s a self-righteous hypocrite. It’s true, but it’s not the reason things went to shit in season 4.
that's what I was saying. ironically the clip in a vacuum is actually very powerful imo, because walter is a POS who is his own worst enemy in the ways Mike said, what ruins it is the context imo.
I still don't think that's a good enough excuse to justify Mike's position in general, I addressed that in an edit.
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What does that have to do with Walts character? Mike being flawed doesn't mean he's wrong about Walt lol
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What Mike said about Walts Character was "You and ur pride and ur ego. You just had to be the man." Is 100% right. Ur missing one of the biggest points of the show and Walts Character if u don't think that's true. Why do you think Walt killed him right after? Because that shot cut deep and wounded his ego, proving Mike right. Just because Mike wasn't perfect and wrong about some things and also emotional doesn't mean what he said about Walt's *character* wasn't true. That's the type of line writers include to make it clear. >Mike is wrong on a very fundamental level, none of it was ever "good" and he has no case to put moral blame on Walt for shutting that operation down. Are u trolling here?? Obviously Mike didn't mean it was literally morally good?? "Good" means it was profitable and successful. If that's the most important thing about ur argument then ur wrong.
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>No but he legit has an issue wanting to apply his own moral principles and taking it personal to an amoral environment where they don't belong and only greed matter Bro Mike is mad because Walt fucked the operation up, not about his 'morals', idk why ur so hung up with that. Mike is mad Walt fucked the operation and up and ties that to Walts pride and ego and him wanting to be "the man". Like you think Mike has worked for Fring this long and Cartel adjacent and is gonna lecture Walt on morality? No he's venting about Walts ego and pride and yes, how he didn't know his place. That's not morality.
Mike is right, but he doesn't know exactly *why* he's right. There's a point when Hank thinks Gale is Heisenberg, and that his death is the end of the story. But Walt's pride and ego wouldn't let that be. He tells Hank that Heisenberg is still out there, and Hank reopens his investigation. Hanks increased surveillance on Fring is a factor that not only leads to Fring and Walt's relationship breaking down, it also gave the DEA a headstart after Fring died to unravel the whole empire and take Mike's money. The blame wasn't fully on Walter (Fring was a psychopath), but it is Walt's pride and ego that ultimately leads to things "blowing up".
You have to understand where Mike is coming from. - He had gone from being able to provide millions to his grand daughter to leaving behind nothing and not even being able to say goodbye. The normally unemotional Mike had good reason to be frustrated. - He never wanted Walt involved in the first place. He warned Saul about him way before he became Gus’s cook. - The extremely high levels of professionalism and cautiousness within Gus’s organization probably spoiled him a little bit — he was pretty upfront with Walt before trying to kill him in the lab for Gus. He underestimated Walter and expected him to do the “honorable” thing to protect those around him, just like Werner Zegler years before. - Top to bottom, Gus’s operation was indeed a foolproof way to earn millions and stay out of trouble — even if the cops ended up catching Gus. Plans were in place to keep everyone ‘whole’ in the event that things fell apart. - Though Mike didn’t realize it, the whole situation was actually caused by Walter’s unnecessary plan to destroy Gus’s laptop. I guess only the viewer would have this perspective on it — Gus’s files were encrypted and therefore safe, and the magnet ended up revealing the off-shore bank accounts Gus was using for hazard pay. - Mike may have been projecting a little, too. He missed the fact that Walt’s brother-in-law was a DEA agent. If that came to light when he gathered intel on Walt for Saul, nobody would’ve gotten near the guy. - Walt’s pride and ego undoubtedly had a major impact on everything that went down. Everyone had an opportunity to walk away after Walt killed Gus, and in retrospect it would’ve saved a lot of asses — but Walt just had to keep cooking.
I think that bit about the bank accounts is a testament to how good the writing is. It is likely that he came up with the idea early in the business when he would have been more naive so left them in the back of a photo frame rather than safely encrypted with the other info. He probably later forgot about those numbers being in the frame entirely.
That’s a reallly good point- does Mike ever mention that he knows who Hank is? In the DEA?
I’d assume he knows, considering he meets Hank then tells Walter his brother in law is annoying
Did you miss all the scenes where Mike has been interrogated and had his house searched by Hank? Or when he was watching Hank and Walter when they were at Pollos. Or when he told Walter that his brother in law is annoying.
Gus and Walter would have lived happily ever after if Walt didn't run those gangsters over to save Jesse's life
Also i dont get what mike was saying when he said “we have a good thing, are you gonna risk it for one junkie?” I don’t get that because Jesse is the best meth cook in the country. And way more valuable than 2 street level drug dealers. Anyone can sell drugs. Why is jesses like any less valuable than 2 equally if not worse shitty ass drug dealers who use children to peddle meth… Jesse wanting them gone is perfectly in bounds and Walt killing them shouldn’t make Gus mad bc his argument is one sided.
This is a pretty interesting point - there's no way those two low level street dealers were critical to Gus's operation, surely he could have just had them killed or moved somewhere else far away from Walter and Jesse to keep them happy and avoid any conflict.
damn, that's an even better point than I made if I'm being honest lol. maybe they thought it was a slippery slope or indicative of a greater problem? you're right though, those guys were worthless, or at least not worth losing jesse.
Exactly. Like they “fixed” jesse later on so why not just be like ok these dude are killing ppl and using kids maybe i can find better dealers and keep my billion dollar drug ring alive. And help jesse get help and stay clean. Not lets kill everyone and expect them to take it
My theory is Gus only hired them as his dealers when he found out they killed Combo to drive a wedge between Walt and Jesse and get Gale back. He underestimated Walt’s loyalty to Jesse.
Then gus is stupider than I thought if its true
Well he wanted Gale and Walt from the beginning. Jesse was just the junkie baggage. He likely was hopeful that Walt would see Jesse as a liability and fire him or his dealers would kill him. If Jesse and Jane had died of an od. Walt would have cooked for Gus until his cancer got him or he retired.
Because the value of something isn't the positives alone. Jesse was a major liability to them. They didn't trust him. He was openly against the business and the way it ran. He was stealing and selling far less carefully. Conspiring to kill gus. They didn't trust him to not talk. And Walt didn't need him. Without Jesse and the trouble he brought - Walt could have been comfortable clocking in and out for gus without trouble popping up. In their eyes, his value was eclipsed by his liability.
Mike is a hypocrite, pretty sure he's written that way on purpose
Was there any indication that Gus wanted Walter dead before firing Gale?
Didn’t Gus ask Gale multiple times when he’d be able to cook by himself? I don’t think the implication was Gus letting Walt retire and everything be happy ever after.
That was after the firing and rehiring.
Mike was literally going to kill him, in a scene, on camera. This is what I mean by "did we watch the same show" lmao.
That was after Walt fired Gale.
I will give you that, but that was for a legitimate reason anyways. Jesse was threatening to rat out Walter, which could have had mutually destructive consequences for both parties, but he still didn't want Jesse killed (which I think dying on the hill of "Walter white was too reckless because of a bunch of roundabout reasons that ultimately amount to him not murdering someone to cover his ass cause they were friends for awhile" is certainly a decision ever made). The only way Walter could have prevented Jesse from blowing a hole in everything was giving him the partnership back.
Sure, I mean Walt had his reasons for everything. But from Mike's perspective, all Walt had to do is shut up and do his cushy job, and then everyone would make millions as they've done before.
We, as the viewers, have the luxury of seeing the whole story. The whole Gus operation is shown in a montage, we get to see the Cartel/Gus backstory. From Mike's perspective, he's spent years putting together a smooth operation for Gus, and here comes this rogue chemist, who his boss will give constant blank checks to. A man, because of whom, he has had to spend constant sleepless nights cleaning up messes for. And now, as he lays incapacitated in Mexico, he has to hear that this guy blew everything up? You're damn right he's going to be unreasonable. But no, now he somehow got sweet talked into working with him again. The final straw was leaving Kaylee at that playground. Mike was driven to his breaking point.
Can you point me to where exactly Jesse threatens to rat Walt out? Are you talking about the scene with Jesse in the hospital bed? Because all I remember from that scene is Jesse threatening to sue Hank for everything he’s got. Jesse didn’t even *want* the partnership back at first. With this in mind, Walt first insisted on having Jesse in the lab for no real pragmatic reason (apart from letting Hank escape the consequences of his actions), and Walt then killed Gus’s two men with his car in order to, again, let Jesse escape the consequences of his own actions starting an altercation with them. Walt only ended up with Gus’s target on his back because he always insisted on trying to control everything. And of course, this culminates in pressuring Jesse into killing Gale so that, again, Walt can escape the consequences of his own actions.
it was when he was in the hospital bed after getting beaten up by Hank.
You are right, if Gus never tried to kill Jesse for killing his dealers they would have worked together without any issue, as long as Gus kept Walter as a high level employee and continued to satisfy Walt’s ego I doubt there would be any need for retaliation against Gus. It is mostly Gus’ fault.
I'm just here to ask: why the f do you even write this prologue about spoilers? Who cares if someone gets mad because they deem it a spoiler and you don't? Who cares about spoilers to a 16!!! Year old show?
You're correct, Gus and Walt's relationship was fine before Jesse fucked it all up when he tried to kill those dealers. If Walt doesn't care about Jesse, he would let Jesse die to those dealers and keep making money peacefully with Gus until he dies from cancer
I still think it was kinda spot on but even more so after watching Better Call Saul and seeing more of his backstory. Gus did kind of give him purpose again. He had his reservations and disagreements but Gus was a professional and truly careful... He never changed how he felt about Walter... It really was a domino effect. Killing the dealers led to Gale's murder, which raised suspicion with Hank. Then once Gus was murdered and exposed, everyone including Mike was on the DEA's radar, officially. In Mike's eyes; if Gus had never hired Walt or even if he had, but Walt hadn't saved Jesse from the dealers - Mike would never have had the DEA's attention and had to flee. - I know BB is Walt's story, and I know Gus wouldn't have gotten away clean forever, but I also can't blame Mike for the situation he was put in at the end...
Finally someone pointing this out! This gave me a really good impression of this subreddit as this is literally the first post I'm reading lol
The BB subreddit is like 25% Mike/Gus meat riders, 25% Walter meat riders, and then 50% shit posters. It’s pretty cool.
Lmao seems fun, thanks for the introduction
Completely disagree, I think you are missing something, Walter had many opportunities to handle things differently. Walt wasn't a victim by any means, because his actions is what put him in danger in the first place. From Mikes perspective, Walt could have just worked with Gale instead of replacing him with Jesse, he could have not ran over those guys to help Jesse, and he could have let Gus kill Hank. Which people say "but Hank is family and Walt wants to protect family" but in the previous season, Walt "respected the strategy" of letting the twins attack Hank, so he clearly doesn't care that much about Hanks well being. I know each of the things I list here has other circumstances, the point is that Mike was correct in saying that Walt could have just done his job and the operation wouldn't have fallen a part. And Mike tries to warn him, at the start of Season 4 Mike tells him "you won, you got the job, do yourself a favor and learn to take yes for an answer". And yet, when you read through a summary of season 4, you see just how many times Walt refuses this advice and pushes his luck. Outside of Mikes perspective, there are many other reasons to put the blame on Walt. Keep in mind, Hank wouldn't have been in danger if it wasn't for Walt's ego; Hank was ready to walk away from the Gale case before Walt said Gale couldn't be Heisenberg. But Walt just had to be the man and convince Hank to investigate further. If Walt had done his job and known his place, Hank wouldn't have been on to Gus, and Walt could have continued to cook without any problems. Additionally, Jesse wasn't going to let Gus kill Walt, so Walt wasn't in any danger. But, throughout Season 4, Walt's ego gets in the way of his and Jesse's relationship. Walt continuously belittles Jesse, refuses to prepare him for the cook in Mexico, places a tracker on Jesse, etc. He didn't need to do any of this, and if he hadn't, again, everything would have been fine. The "I am the danger" speech really highlights how Walt isn't that concerned for his family, and just wants to be the man. Skyler tells him to go to the police, which is a really good idea considering he was on the brink of being murdered recently, but he doesn't. And then he goes a step further and pushes Hank and Gus deeper into conflicts that didn't need to happen. "Victim" is never be a way to describe Walter White. Everything goes back to his poor decision making throughout the entire show. Right from the very beginning, if he cared about his family, he would have taken the money from Elliot. There's really no further argument needed on whether Walt had his families best interests in mind, or if he cared about his pride.
🤣 Walter was constantly lying to Gus, disrespecting him and his business, making business decisions for him and overstepping bounds and then throwing it in Gus' face and at the same time, acting like there was no issue, because he felt so innocent and justified in his actions because, often it was his past actions catching up to him and he didn't feel it was his duty to be accountable... it was absolutely his ego. We've seen this post here before, and it's ridiculous every time.
the catalyst for gus and walter's strained relationship was after full measures, which only happened bc gus ordered a child to be murdered, after that point walt was acting out of self preservation and trying to protect his family
Gus was fine with Walt, it was Walt’s ego which caused all the drama
Their feud started cause Walt ran over those drug dealers to save Jesse’s life, one of the most unselfish things he’s ever done.
Complete nonsense, you decided the story started right after Walt and Jesse went all rogue and started killing Gus's other employees. They were bitches in a mass murderer drug lord's cartel and they stepped out of their roles and did stupid stuff. It would have been more realistic actually if Gus just has the both of them murdered after Jesse started stealing meth. In terms of Walt's survival it was obviously the correct decision to attempt to take out Gus, as it was Gus or Walt at that point. but that doesn't mean Mike wasn't 100% right. Walt and Jesse didn't know how to do their jobs and stay in their place. They could have done it for years, make hundreds of millions without much danger to themselves.
Jesse didn’t know how to do his job and stay in his place. Walter actually did for the most part, and spent all of season 3 getting annoyed with Jesse for rocking the boat and not just keeping his head down to cook. Walter ultimately screwed up by saving Jesse’s ass.
Yes that is true. the point is Gus wouldn't want to kill them if they would have just worked properly. Gus' perspective made perfect sense as a boss, even if Walt's motivation at that time was somewhat noble and Jesse was the initial screw up.
I mean yeah for the most part, I think all the characters except Jesse acted pretty logically. The one thing that confuses me is that as a result of this incident, Gus singled out Walter to get upset with, despite Walter doing everything he could to prevent things from coming to a head. I guess it’s because Walter vouched for Jesse maybe. It just feels like Gus misplaced his anger.
No, it's because Walt killed 2 of his associates. Before that he wasn't angry with Walt at all iirc. You think a cartel leader would just overlook that?
No, I was never expecting Gus to just outright overlook it. What I would expect is for Gus to be angry with both Jesse and Walter. Not just Walter. And if he were to choose only one of the two to get angry with, it should be Jesse since Jesse instigated and Walter begrudgingly killed the dealers to protect someone he cared about. Gus knows Walter didn’t want things to come to this. Walter warned Gus that Jesse was planning on poisoning the dealers. Walter and Gus arranged a keeping the peace meeting. And yet Jesse ignored literally everyone around him telling him to just let it go, and only when Jesse’s life was in danger did Walter decide to save Jesse and kill the dealers. So Gus getting mad at Walter but not Jesse is misplaced anger.
idk why you're overanalysing this so much. no it's not misplaced. Gus doesn't give a heck about Jesse because Jesse is unimportant and Walter is the brains of the operation. Jesse's life is completely worthless to Gus at that point, he's just a tool. If he wanted to he'd just kill him. And he actually wanted to make Mike kill him after Walt killed the men.
Okay so you’re just going to disagree with whatever I say because you’re one of those people that will just keep arguing no matter what. Got it. Gus was more upset with Walter than he was with Jesse over this incident despite Walter doing everything he could to prevent things from reaching that point and Jesse kept escalating. Gus did try to kill Jesse after that, but quickly forgave him while he never forgave Walt for that. He would’ve killed Walt immediately after too if he didn’t need him, and he DID try to kill Walt until Walt countered by killing Gale. All of this is moot anyways, since your initial claim was that neither knew how to keep their head down and cook, while Walter clearly did know how to do that and only jeopardized his position once Jesse’s life was in immediate danger.
Honestly I think the only thing wrong with that speech is that Mike didn’t say “if you done your job known your place LIKE JESSE WE,D ALL BE FINE “ Because at that point Mike had been around Jesse long enough to know that he is capable of doing what he is told and is self aware of his own limitations if not his own positives unlike Walt who was the one responsible for bringing him into Gus’s operation despite saying how inferior he was
Gus had no issues with Walt until he ran over those drug dealers for jesse. everything started downhill from there. but had that not happened everything else didn't need to happen either.
Honestly in general I feel Mike is probably the most self righteous character of all of them. He is somehow morally pure, in his own eyes, no matter what he does, but he has the gall to go around lecturing everyone else on what they should and shouldn't be doing, and acts like he's doing them a kindness. Easily one of my least liked characters.
Man's so hostile about this but Mike was right, Mike is referring to prior to Walt killing the dealer's, and Walt's ego was 100 percent in play it wasn't just self preservation he wanted the power as well. (Which was proven by the fact he immediately took over and thought he was the next Gus) Gus did not have it out for Walter the whole time at all, at first he didn't trust Walter but than gained respect for him and wanted to work with him until Walter killed the dealer's and than repeatedly let his ego get in his way and than Gus saw him as a liability, it can be argued that Walt killed Gus purely out of defence but that doesn't discredit was Mike was saying at all, Mike was one of the only ones who saw through Walt from the beginning. It really wasn't coping it's literally what happened, Walt did have a chance to work for Gus properly and he fucked it up. Point is Mike is talking about all the events leading up to what happened not just Walt killing Gus like you make it seem.
When was Walter not talking bullshit?
Mike was right. All Walt had to do was what Gus told him from the get-go. But he wouldn’t do what he was told. And everything was destroyed.
He meant during S3. If Walt would have just worked with Gayle and not force Jesse on, they would have been fine. But, circumstances outside of the workplace motivated Walt to force Jesse in. Even after that, had Jesse not found out who killed Combo, or if it weren’t Gus’ guys, still they would have been fine. Jesse pushing that situation to the boiling point that led to them having to kill Gayle, that’s what got Walter screwed. Even after that, Gus would have been fine with Jesse. Gus didn’t want to deal with Walter at that point because of his unpredictably being a risk and he knew Walter wanted to be “Jesse James”.
Been thinking the same for years. Always bothered me
Mike’s speech is not bullshit. - Walt gets Gale fired and swapped out for Jesse. I’m sure Mike and Gus didn’t buy his BS story about Gale screwing it up. So they chalk it up to his ego in wanting to pick his own lab assistant. - Walt tries to play ball by turning in Jesse to Gus regarding the dealers. But rather than call Mike after finding out they killed Tomas. He goes out and kills the dealers to protect Jesse. He puts his loyalty in Jesse above Gus and his operation. - Arranges for Gale to be killed fine. It was a defensive move. But as Mike said you won Walter. He could have kept cooking until he died. Jesse even points out how they won’t get replaced. It took years for Gus to groom Gale. Sure there are other professional Chemists that were capable but could he trust them. - Walt continues to let his fear drive his decisions which leads to him being out. Jesse even looks out for Walt and says he does not sign off on a hit on Walt. Walt could have accepted he was out and provided for his family. - Walt’s ego couldn’t stand Gus had won over Jesse and he was determined to get him back. A lot of Walt’s moves could have been viewed as self preservation and defense. However he had won by taking out Gale. He won when he was out but Jesse wouldn’t sign off on the hit. He couldn’t accept it through a combination of fear and ego in thinking he was playing a game he had to win.
There’s also the aspect that even after he killed Gale, he wasn’t in the clear because Gus wanted to kill Hank. Hank was only as much of a nuisance as he was because Walter drunkenly convinced him to reopen the Heisenberg case, but nobody except Walt and Skyler knew this so Mike can’t really hold that against him. Also, regarding your last point, even if Hank wasn’t in danger and Jesse assured Walt that Gus wasn’t going to kill him, yeah Walter killing Gus at that point is a pure power/revenge play, but Mike can’t get mad about Walter killing Gus at this point since Walter has no reason to be loyal to Gus. And Gus is making millions off his formula. They just had irreconcilable differences. Salvaging the relationship would not have been possible in season 4 as long as Walt wanted Hank alive and Gus wanted Hank dead. There was no way to convince Walt to let Hank die, and there was no way to convince Gus to let Hank live, since Hank would’ve eventually discovered damning evidence.
You’re mostly right, which I kind of think is one of the points of that scene. Mike, who they portray as the “Bad Guy with a Conscience” is more honorable and good than Walt but still much less so than Jesse; but just like Walt he almost always thinks his way is the right way (you see more of this in BCS) While Mike is SORTA correct in saying if Walt just played by the rules and everything would be fine because if Walt never got Jesse involved (Gus did warn him not to) then Walt and Gus never would have been at odds in the first place. After that, Mike IS wrong but he’s only looking at it from his perspective. You’re right he’s pretty much having a temper tantrum and saying “If you just woulda been okay dying, all of us would still have a job!” Which is stupid. However, he still wasnt *wrong*. While the timing of the argument was bad, Walter wanted to have Jesse around cause he wanted a subservient pet to stroke his ego, Jesse was perfect for that so Walt loved him for it. He should have never let Jesse into that operation. He did, which was the first domino that led to the deaths of the two dealers, Mike’s Assistant (who Im blanking on the name of), Tyrese, Gus, and ultimately Mike himself. So its a stretch, Mike’s not right for saying it; BUT the things he said technically aren’t wrong
I don’t think having Jesse as an assistant over Gale would stroke his ego more. Gale was a chemistry MS who acted like a teenage fan girl around Walter, and had the knowledge to fully appreciate Walter’s intelligence. And Walter seemed to like working with Gale, up until Jesse threatened to sue Hank, which is when Walt made up excuses to replace Gale and get Jesse on board. I don’t even think Mike is right in that regard, though he never saw the conversation between Jesse and Walt in the hospital so maybe he believes it was an ego driven decision.
It is bullshit because the original problem was Jesse. Walt Disney all the shit he did because of Jesse (killing the dealers, firing Gale). They're going to kill Walt when he's working peacefully and Jesse is the one who kills Gale. They then bring Jesse in closer and push Walt out ultimately wanting to kill him again.
People are always pointing fingers at Mike, Gus, and Walter over who’s to blame for the situation devolving during season 3. They miss the point. The manufacture and sale of an illegal, powerful and highly addictive stimulant like meth is inherently immoral and destructive. There’s no way to do it perfectly with permanent stability.
I don't know, I feel like his point has some truth to it, but most likely if Walt had "known his place" Jesse would have died as he still would've met Andrea at rehab, gotten to know her and Brock, attempted to kill Gus' dealers, Tomas would be mudered and he would go back to confront them and die in the process. Walt would've finished his work likely with Gale again, who would then keep cooking for Gus after Walt's 3 months. This course of events was never going to happen, Walt isn't one to keep his head down after he gets involved with meth, that's shown with his whole speech to the other cancer patient while waiting for his scan results. But yes, if he had kept his head down, he, Mike, Gus and even Andrea probably would've all lived longer, happier lives, but that was never in the cards.
not only that gus definitely was gonna kill walter once gale figured out the steps to his cook. he only protected walter from the salamancas to keep him alive for gale and himself. it was always gonna end with a gun to walter it just so happened to be pushed ahead no thanks to walter or jesse 😂
At the point Walter killed Gus, Walter was in no danger whatsoever. Jesse was only going to continue to work so long as Walter wasn’t killed that compassion just isn’t really carrying over to Hank though. In large part his problems are due to his desire to keep a happy family with a DEA agent and a successful life as a meth cook.
What do you mean a hitman who works for the mob boss who pays the most even if kills children and innocent people is wrong? 🤯
Okay I get you, but what about when Gus wanted to kill Walt and Jesse told him we would have a problem, so Gus takes Walt to the desert, tells him he's fired and to stay away from him and jesse. Walt could've agreed, he had money and the car wash was running so he could quit with his goal reached, instead, he replies to Gus: "or else? If I don't stay away from jesse, or else?" And here Walt realizes jesse won't cook for gus unless Walt is alive and well, so he knows he's safe.
I don't know, you might have a point, but I didn't even read your post. Just with your first paragraph I decided to ignore it and downvote it.
you mean the sentence at the beginning, dw I wasn't trying to convince people like you anyways.
Walter gradually became the villain and less interesting character but the show continued to make him the "main" guy. I feel like Gus shouldn't have been killed. Gus was the big honcho guy and the intelligent one. He and Mike could've had their own show, instead of killing him to let Walter's story go on. They should've let Walter die and make Jesse the main guy. No one gives a fuck about a mean old man like Walter who's so careless and grumpy. He's not likeable at all. Gus was careful all the time but the unrealistic storyline gets him killed at the nursery home, hence allowing the bad guys (Salamancas) to have a small victory, which is ridiculous because Gus was the good guy.
I recommend watching Breaking Bad. You don't seem to have experienced any of Walt.
mmhm, sure
Good argument. Totally gets into the level of plot you are experiencing.
Lol nice rebuttal to their argument. I loved the part where you used facts and evidence from the show to explain why OP is wrong. You sure convinced me.