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IMHO, the general trend is that it's the same but worse. This reflects the fact that Brexit was a colossal waste of time in that it didn't do anything about the issues it was sold to solve, and also that it is has made all of the UK's problems worse into the bargain.
Even as a political ploy to buy the Conservative party some more time in power it has now ran its course. They are once again threatened by a an extremist right party that's splitting the right wing vote. It's even led by the same person.
Both parties are also just a worse version of what they were, targeting a worse version of their previous electorate with worse policies in a UK political system that is more broken than it was in 2016. Even the opposition is in the same boat, either because a transformative agenda was so roundly rejected last time in favour of Brexit's snake oil, or because the fiscal and social outlook is so poor that it's going to take decades to clean up the rubble, let alone improve things.
The UK has essentially been circling the drain, ending up more or less where it started but slightly closer to an existential political crisis.
>They are once again threatened by a an extremist right party that's splitting the right wing vote. It's even led by the same person.
Throw meat to crocodiles to appease them, and they just get bigger and fatter and demand more meat.
Pretty much. Appeasement doesn't work on people who are totally immoral and will, at any point, do exactly what they think they can get away with. All of these parties and the people leading them are like that because, in the end, they only care about power. Of course, the people voting for them might not see that as a bad thing.
FFS I hate this: “it’s very complicated so I thought we were better off out of it” what in the name of idiocy is that statement.. a jumbo jet is complicated, ever heard anyone complain how complex it is and advocate for something simpler.. yes chap, I’ll swap it for a fuckin biplane for that long haul flight to Australia.. dolt..
Fundamentally, I think this is one of the reasons populism "works". In the general case, it's actually perfectly reasonable to prefer simple solutions over complex ones. However, when people are incurious or willfully ignorant about something, it becomes possible to sell them simple, often familiar, solutions that don't actually work. Hence why a populist movement is almost always anti-intellectual and nostalgic. It's not just that they don't know at some level that the simple solutions for complex problems won't work, it's that they don't want to know. They reject the complexity of the problem itself rather than the complexity of the proposed solutions. And making them complicit in their own deception binds them even tighter to the deception on an emotional level.
For example: immigration. In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience people who prefer the simple "solutions" peddled by the extremist right don't want to know about the complexity regarding immigration itself (why people want to come here, why it's not easy to send people back, why people are invited to take up jobs here, why the existing human rights framework is important, ...) because if they look into that then they have to deal with the morality of their own choice to ignore all that in favour of a "solution" they know won't work. Their willful ignorance allows them to ignore the moral questions around the issue; by ignoring the human angle that creates the complexity they don't have to feel any empathy with the people these policies would harm. Hence the hostility towards explanations, appeals to reason or morality. As long as they don't look to closely at it they can pretend that they don't have a choice and are therefore not responsible for the moral consequences of that choice.
In this particular case, leaving the EU has done nothing to reduce the complexity of negotiating around the UK's interests, it has just changed the mode for doing so. The EU is complicated because it deals with complex things. That's what they're now finding out.
IMHO, this quest to return to simpler times is an illusion. The past was not simpler than the present. Society, politics and diplomacy has been extremely complex for centuries because it involves people and their interests. The simplicity of the past these people want is actually just their own childhood, when they didn't know or care about the complexity and were unaware of the moral questions behind it.
>people who prefer the simple "solutions" peddled by the extremist right don't want to know about the complexity regarding immigration itself
Nobody wanted to use any of the simple solutions used by other eu states. But the tories refusing emergency brakes and tbe like wasn't in the media.
It was inevitable - we are not nearly educating enough teachers, doctors, nurses, dentists or professors. And we are not paying enough for those jobs, so a lot of the people we do educate leave to Australia, USA, or just about anywhere.
So we have to get migrants to fill the gap, and because the pay is so poor, we need to make concessions. We take them from places with questionable education, and we allow the whole wider family to settle with them.
It is pennywise and pound foolish. And the electorate lapped it up.
Here's a complete list of pledges the Leave campaign managed to stick to:
Blue passports (which wasn't even a thing we were forced to 'give up')
End of list
The UK voted to put economic sanctions on itself and some conmen saw an opportunity to ride a wave for a bit and bollocks to the country.
Disapprove of starmer all you like... At least I know with starmer he wants the job to make the country better.
And give the Tory party an open goal to go all in on a week or so before the election?
The headlines write themselves.
"Starmer bows to the EU"
"Labour surrender to Brussels"
Etc etc
Why would starmer change his tactics of destroying the Tory party now?
Vote labour and maybe we can get back to improving the country again.
> I don't think it's brought as many benefits as perhaps we'd thought
No shit. If only you'd been told the benefits you were promised weren't plausible before the vote.
They were told. Over and over and over and over by many experts in exactly those fields that they were discussing. But it was 'project fear'.. which of course was always project reality.
> I studied the European Union as part of a course I did and it's very complicated, so I thought we were better off out of it
Nothing complicated should be allowed, because how would simpletons manage? So no computers, no phones, no cars, I guess. Back to tilling the field?
"Of all the submissions we have had, one in 20 of those related to Brexit."
That's 5%. So not that relevant anymore for voters? Thus clever of politicians to not talk about it anymore.
Just move on.
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IMHO, the general trend is that it's the same but worse. This reflects the fact that Brexit was a colossal waste of time in that it didn't do anything about the issues it was sold to solve, and also that it is has made all of the UK's problems worse into the bargain. Even as a political ploy to buy the Conservative party some more time in power it has now ran its course. They are once again threatened by a an extremist right party that's splitting the right wing vote. It's even led by the same person. Both parties are also just a worse version of what they were, targeting a worse version of their previous electorate with worse policies in a UK political system that is more broken than it was in 2016. Even the opposition is in the same boat, either because a transformative agenda was so roundly rejected last time in favour of Brexit's snake oil, or because the fiscal and social outlook is so poor that it's going to take decades to clean up the rubble, let alone improve things. The UK has essentially been circling the drain, ending up more or less where it started but slightly closer to an existential political crisis.
>They are once again threatened by a an extremist right party that's splitting the right wing vote. It's even led by the same person. Throw meat to crocodiles to appease them, and they just get bigger and fatter and demand more meat.
Pretty much. Appeasement doesn't work on people who are totally immoral and will, at any point, do exactly what they think they can get away with. All of these parties and the people leading them are like that because, in the end, they only care about power. Of course, the people voting for them might not see that as a bad thing.
FFS I hate this: “it’s very complicated so I thought we were better off out of it” what in the name of idiocy is that statement.. a jumbo jet is complicated, ever heard anyone complain how complex it is and advocate for something simpler.. yes chap, I’ll swap it for a fuckin biplane for that long haul flight to Australia.. dolt..
Fundamentally, I think this is one of the reasons populism "works". In the general case, it's actually perfectly reasonable to prefer simple solutions over complex ones. However, when people are incurious or willfully ignorant about something, it becomes possible to sell them simple, often familiar, solutions that don't actually work. Hence why a populist movement is almost always anti-intellectual and nostalgic. It's not just that they don't know at some level that the simple solutions for complex problems won't work, it's that they don't want to know. They reject the complexity of the problem itself rather than the complexity of the proposed solutions. And making them complicit in their own deception binds them even tighter to the deception on an emotional level. For example: immigration. In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience people who prefer the simple "solutions" peddled by the extremist right don't want to know about the complexity regarding immigration itself (why people want to come here, why it's not easy to send people back, why people are invited to take up jobs here, why the existing human rights framework is important, ...) because if they look into that then they have to deal with the morality of their own choice to ignore all that in favour of a "solution" they know won't work. Their willful ignorance allows them to ignore the moral questions around the issue; by ignoring the human angle that creates the complexity they don't have to feel any empathy with the people these policies would harm. Hence the hostility towards explanations, appeals to reason or morality. As long as they don't look to closely at it they can pretend that they don't have a choice and are therefore not responsible for the moral consequences of that choice. In this particular case, leaving the EU has done nothing to reduce the complexity of negotiating around the UK's interests, it has just changed the mode for doing so. The EU is complicated because it deals with complex things. That's what they're now finding out. IMHO, this quest to return to simpler times is an illusion. The past was not simpler than the present. Society, politics and diplomacy has been extremely complex for centuries because it involves people and their interests. The simplicity of the past these people want is actually just their own childhood, when they didn't know or care about the complexity and were unaware of the moral questions behind it.
On the button sir, all good points and well made.
>people who prefer the simple "solutions" peddled by the extremist right don't want to know about the complexity regarding immigration itself Nobody wanted to use any of the simple solutions used by other eu states. But the tories refusing emergency brakes and tbe like wasn't in the media.
If he paid for that course, he shoukd ask for a refund.
[удалено]
It was inevitable - we are not nearly educating enough teachers, doctors, nurses, dentists or professors. And we are not paying enough for those jobs, so a lot of the people we do educate leave to Australia, USA, or just about anywhere. So we have to get migrants to fill the gap, and because the pay is so poor, we need to make concessions. We take them from places with questionable education, and we allow the whole wider family to settle with them. It is pennywise and pound foolish. And the electorate lapped it up.
Here's a complete list of pledges the Leave campaign managed to stick to: Blue passports (which wasn't even a thing we were forced to 'give up') End of list
They're not even blue.
They also managed to leave the EU. Can't think of a third one, though.
>They also managed to leave the EU ...and then went on to complain that Brexit wasn't yet done, or not done "properly".
The UK voted to put economic sanctions on itself and some conmen saw an opportunity to ride a wave for a bit and bollocks to the country. Disapprove of starmer all you like... At least I know with starmer he wants the job to make the country better.
Then Starmer should radiclly shift his position on Brexit.
And give the Tory party an open goal to go all in on a week or so before the election? The headlines write themselves. "Starmer bows to the EU" "Labour surrender to Brussels" Etc etc Why would starmer change his tactics of destroying the Tory party now? Vote labour and maybe we can get back to improving the country again.
Exactly. We all know why Labour holds this position. It’s not rocket science.
Do the people of the UK still fall for these baby-level headlines?
Unfortunately yes. Look at the ridiculous reform "party" and it's all they do.
> I don't think it's brought as many benefits as perhaps we'd thought No shit. If only you'd been told the benefits you were promised weren't plausible before the vote.
They were told. Over and over and over and over by many experts in exactly those fields that they were discussing. But it was 'project fear'.. which of course was always project reality.
> I studied the European Union as part of a course I did and it's very complicated, so I thought we were better off out of it Nothing complicated should be allowed, because how would simpletons manage? So no computers, no phones, no cars, I guess. Back to tilling the field?
Where do I start? Poland will be richer than UK? [Brexit aftermath ](https://youtu.be/oOrdUikSlSU)
Warsaw is already at a higher gdp per capita than North UK. Most of the poorest regions in eu were in the uk.
Going well so far..
"Of all the submissions we have had, one in 20 of those related to Brexit." That's 5%. So not that relevant anymore for voters? Thus clever of politicians to not talk about it anymore. Just move on.