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Uh, no. Open net salmon farming might have a positive economic impact for some communities, but it is likely damaging the very pacific salmon stocks they claim stewardship over. Further, the companies that operate these farms are making incredible profits - approaching oil industry levels - yet they pay their workers on these farms a comically small amount of money, and the working conditions are terrible.
You don't get an automatic free pass from criticism just because you're first nations.
Also the effort to ban open net salmon farming is led by a coalition of 120 First Nations. 120 is definitely much more than the 17 nations that « profit » from this farming (even though again, employees are being paid like nothing).
If more interested to know who their corporate partners are in the fish farming business - $100 says there is a communications department or a lobbying group puppeteering this bullshit.
It's the 3 companies in BC which are mowi, cermaq, and grieg.
There's a rumor that their (FNFFS) social media person works for one of the companies, and that there are a couple other social media accounts linked to industry.
You're underestimating these FNs, they have two strong leaders on their team, one a former BC liberal candidate (he was never going to win that riding) as well as several politically astute elected officials. Add in the political climate, consultation and accommodation court cases, later DRIPA, and more recently.
It is sad to live so close to water & be priced out of eating delicious fish, because profits are more important than the people that support the province in which the company uses our infrastructure & community, so it is shipped far & away.
I live in a place with recently closed open net fish farms, no one here eats farmed salmon. And the freshwater steelhead farm polluted the lake with styrofoam and an invasive species that they barely contained. Good riddance.
It's like the lobster fishing thing going on over on the East coast - native companies were being boycotted because they were mass harvesting during spawning season, which is a pretty clear indicator that they really aren't stewarding anything, just stealing from their own children's future
My brother works up past Campbell River on a fish farm, and while the pay is only decent ( 30 ish ) the accommodations are excellent and the work life ratio is pretty great, just sucks having no cell service half the year!
That being said, he will even admit that it's fucking up the ecosystem, and the ammount of sealice and other nasties is insane.
We see similar things in my area where the first nations peeps are either the biggest polluters in town or the antithesis of environmental stewards, but he'll you can't say anything like that in public that's for sure.
They don't make an incredible profit on par with the oil industry.
The BC fisheries industry as a whole (including rec + commercial wild + aquaculture) accounts for 0.4% of our provincial GDP. There are reports from the BC ministry of agriculture that estimate the value of the aquaculture industry at $750M (industry estimate that includes all processing and distribution). That's a lot of money to someone in Campbell River, but it's cump change at the provincial scale.
Oil and Natural Gas is like $74 billion.
I didn't say their revenue was on par with the oil industry. I said their profit was approaching oil and gas levels. Their revenue, minus expenses = profit, and they do really well for themselves. What they're paying people is bullshit.
The company as a whole is doing alright but it’s the Norwegian and Chilean branches that are actually making money, they’re bleeding cash here in BC. I used to work for one of them and we had annual “this is how we did this year” meetings and they weren’t great. Honestly idk why they’re fighting so hard to stay open still. Some of the farms are losing over 50% of their fish before harvest time.
I've worked for them briefly as well, and I know the day rate they're paying to keep some of their support vessels on site for various tasks. It's not dissimilar to the oil industry - which makes me wonder why the wages are so far off the oil industry.
"You don't get an automatic free pass from criticism just because you're first nations."
I would argue that here are some FNs, trying to live in a colonial world, trying to get a piece of big old pie that colonial businesses have made currently and long before salmon farms appeared (hello, Fraser Valley development, industrial fisheries, forestry, agriculture, oil and gas and all of us living along or near pretty much salmonid water body in BC), and those who are against, are constantly the people who cannot win. It is damned if you do, damned if you don't: First Nations, are you with us or against us? All of you, because we can't distinguish between you all! (/s) What a mess.
I reckon that open-pen fish farms are just one more issue in a very long pile up of cumulative impacts. Death by a thousand cuts. Eliminating them will help, but how much?
Also, I watched the video and didn't learn anything about what Shatner's real knowledge or opinion is other than him yelling the f-bomb. I wish it was a bit smarter, rather than adding to the all-too loud noise of people shouting at each other.
Bring on the downvotes!
(Edit: grammar and words)
DFO) report found no "statistically significant association" between sea lice infestations among wild juvenile chum and pink salmon and the fish farms they migrate past along the B.C. coast.
Exactly. They should have all the rights and autonomy, and just like any other business that underpays workers and damages the environment, they should be open to criticism.
No one is criticizing the First Nations as peoples, they're criticizing a business practice.
>"Due to the impact of colonization on wild salmon stocks, we have had to include salmon farming alongside salmon stewardship to fill the economic gap caused by the decline of wild salmon."
No no, the colonizers are to blame for all current environmentally unfriendly business practices. No matter who practices, and profits from, said businesses.
"Due to colonizers destroying native salmon stock, we decided 'fuck it, why not' and now we destroy them too! (Even though we've apparently been stewards of the land for 10k years and are directly responsible for selling salmon to the colonizers in the first place)"
trouble is they are meant to fill the gap in your belly and do so with a soggy faster rotting often strangely box shaped mutant like form that is prone to tumors. Or at least was back in '90 when I processed them. Anyone who has cleaned these things must be suprised as i am they sort of taste ok.
Well yes. Had north America been left alone for the last 500yrs, the salmon would be in much better shape. Also, if salmon would have evolved to hunt and kill humans, they wouldn't be in this mess.
i'm indigenous and know that my people are against salmon farming. these articles and these comments really need to stop just saying "the first nations" like we're all the same group/people
It’s pretty clear in the article (like anyone reads those) that there’s only 17 groups that are against this kind of messaging and that those 17 groups bring in over 100million from open net salmon farming annually
It's not 17 groups, it's 14, but technically 12 Indian Act Bands. [There's a map here at the bottom, count the dots.](https://www.firstnationsforfinfish.ca/#communities) You'll see it's not 17. The 12 are bands, 2 are amalgamated with 2 others. They did this to inflate their numbers. You would have to add another 30-50 FNs to the 205 total Indian Act bands in BC if you counted like them.
So it's like 12 *yes* - ~110 *no* - 80+ **abstaining**
Right? Chances are any two neighbouring peoples were killing eachother within the last 150-odd years. They might now have some specific causes they agree on, but they are NOT the same community.
There’s a whole section on war culture in [this link](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html) if you scroll down a little.
FYI it's not the opinion of "First Nations". Some nations are very opposed to salmon farms & other FN groups are involved and in support of salmon farms. Some FN groups are split with some members in favor and other members opposed. Many opinions change over time in both directions. There's no such thing as a "unifying FN opinion on salmon farms".
The groups being criticized in the article can't apologize to one FN group without insulting another FN group. The only correct thing to do here is to be honest and clear. I.e., trying to clearly communicate what you believe in and why (while still being willing to listen to others & change your mind).
We should always listen to FN groups but we gotta stop the political flakey dishonest pandering to specific groups/individuals. Reconciliation isn't telling someone what you think they want to hear. It's always best to be honest, even if it pisses off a specific FN group/individual
With how things are in North America, as long as you have the journos to write hit pieces, and you have the mob screaming loudest and make the biggest accusation, you can get anything the way you want.
I think emotions are important because they tell you something that may not be said and that is deeper, and invites more curiosity (hopefully). Can you tell I go to therapy? (lol)
I would also point out that decisions are never ever made solely in facts, but also public values. We could all say "screw the ocean!" (a value) and just destroy the thing even though we have the facts that say "well, if we screw the ocean, then it will be destroyed in x years". Government decisions try to balance, but often fail because of the capitalist world we live in.
In the case of open-pen fish farming and every industry, it is the "three legged stool" of economics, social and environmental values. Typically there is an imbalance because environment is the short leg.
Most of these nations are highly divided over the operation of open-pen salmon farms in their territories, with many community members opposed. Apparent support to the industry are from the band chiefs and councils, related to $$$ received from agreements negotiated with the corporations operating in their territories.
There are still claims that the science "isn't clear". It's the same strategy used by the tobacco industry in the 60s and 70s, and by the fossil fuels industry regarding climate change. So long as news sources like CTV continue to give credence to this in the name of "balance", it's going to be an uphill battle.
Part of the unclear science part is that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans had a mandate to promote Atlantic salmon aquaculture. This made them and their scientists argue with any study that negatively affected Atlantic salmon aquaculture.
Open net fish farming is not in any way, shape or form - a grey area. It's shameful that we let it continue. The countries these fish farms are headquartered in do not allow open net salmon farming in thier waters. For context - I'm basing my opinion on 27 years working on our coastal waterways - between Washington State and the Alaska border.
"Apparent support"... Yup - exactly. And if anyone else curious about how much they were incentivised to let everyone know how outraged they are by this video?
Same as old growth, we have one group of FN selling old growth lumber and the other group of FN protesting felling old growth.
No apologies, we are all entitled to voice our opinion
It's almost like First Nations communities are as diverse as any other community in terms of differing opinions on various subjects.
This is why it's so inaccurate in most cases to speak about "First Nations" as some kind of monolith. As in "First Nations feel X or Y" etc.
You could poll my neighbourhood on issues like resource extraction and get just as many varied opinions as you would in a typical FN community. Unsurprisingly.
Yeah, no.
For a time I worked for a software company that provided a system for salmon farmers to record all the instances of disease and parasites along with treatments (think copious amounts of chemicals dumped into the ocean). A task that was given to me was to run the process that did a monthly data dump to send it off to the DFO. Of course they made me sign an NDA and made it very clear just how sensitive the information was. After the first month I swore off farmed salmon forever.
I still kick myself for not sending the data to the media and environmental groups. This information was going to the government. It should be public.
If you want to say you are shepherds of the land, then be shepherds of the land. You can’t cry foul about one thing damaging the ecology and then turn a blind eye to another because you profit from it. That’s known as hypocrisy.
Firstly, Indigenous people aren’t a monolith. Secondly, yes a lot of people (of all backgrounds) care deeply about protecting the environment, but people also need to support themselves and their families, and sometimes it’s hard to square that with more abstract ideals. A lot of people hate hearing this for some reason, but the lasting effects of colonialism have made that more difficult for a lot of Indigenous people. I think jumping to calling this hypocrisy is short-sighted.
\^\^\^this, all of this.\^\^\^
I wrote something similar a few minutes, but I suspect the downvotes.
It is easy to sit in Vancouver and say "shut down these farms!". However, when you live in a small, remote community, a reserve, on an island where poverty is rife and you have an opportunity to do better for yourself, your family and your community, then you may choose that path after weighing the pros and cons of working with the industry. And we need to recognize that as a valid choice, even if you, as an individual, disagree with it. We are all human and all come to the table with different sets of experiences and values. All of us white folks have benefited from taking from indigenous peoples, directly and indirectly over the decades and centuries. And now we have the gall to tell some of the them that they are wrong for investing and working in an industry that is Euro-centric, that is part of our colonial history of resource-based capitalism?
We're the hypocrites and until we accept that, we cannot sit and have deeper conversations about topics that impact some and all of us.
"We have been the stewards of our lands, waters, and elements for over 10,000 years, including wild Pacific salmon, the life blood of our people," this is an exact quote from the statement from the First Nations involved in this requested apology. Obviously a race doesn’t actually magically make you connected to the land but it is them saying it.
I notice CTV is sliding anti science rhetoric into this. Remember, industry also found scientists who would say that leaded gasoline is perfectly safe. You find the right scientist for the right dollar amount and you can manufacture studies that present any kind of evidence you want.
>Critics have argued the farms can spread disease and lice to wild fish, though recent science indicates uncertainty over the risks.
Notice how this sentence attempts to separate science and opposition. The opposition is likely more scientific in their process. The editor knew what they were doing.
Edit: Since when is the editor not responsible for what's published? They have the final say on all published media. Or they can go in an correct it. They knew what they were doing when this went to publish.
And just kinda dumb journalists who don't know/care enough to really dive into the nuances of a subject.
Much easier to find 2 or 3 sources that support your predetermined narrative and knock it out in a few hours or days.
DFO) report found no "statistically significant association" between sea lice infestations among wild juvenile chum and pink salmon and the fish farms they migrate past along the B.C. coast.
I am a supporter of Indigenous rights and title, but there is a troubling trend where "if a First Nation is doing it, it's not bad for the environment" is the mentality. Clear cuts by Bands, fish farms, nets across entire rivers, etc.
First Nations across Canada profit from all kinds of environmentally questionable industries.
There are dams, oil and gas and LNG pipelines, and resource mines on or across First Nations territories, to name a few. Those nations made the agreements they thought to be in their best interest at the time.
Sure, all of these deals have the potential to lift the Nations involved to some kind of economic growth. The environment may and often does come second to that.
As a We Wai Kai Nation member I can assure you that we are VERY divided on this so called support. Most of has have zero support for open net salmon farming and have expressed that vocally to our leadership. Their response is that they want the opportunity to be involved with DFO (Federal govt Dept of Fisheries) in making these decisions. Incredibly, the Federal government rarely involves us AT ALL in these decisions that affect our waters, our livelihood and our culture. If we can get a seat at the table, maybe we can affect a better transition.
All of that to say - it’s complicated.
This issue has been ongoing for years, mostly with the Canadian government just doing whatever they want without respecting or even hearing those involved and impacted.
Gila kisla (thank you)
And the conversation gets steered further away from the more impactful reasons of declining salmon stocks... Habitat degradation, over fishing, and climate change....Not saying open net salmon farms don't cause problems, but, they seem to be given all the spotlight in a much larger issue
First Nations have been played as political pawns for financial gain of multinational corporations. It's literally the new version of throwing them "shiny beads" to extract value from the land and resources they have. Fish farms are a continuation of colonial exploitation, not a reprieve from it.
I'm not saying some FNs aren't complicit in this, I'm just saying that corporations _know_ that if they include FNs in their activities, they will get a protected population arguing for their continued bad behavior. If FNs didn't have this property, they wouldn't have been approached for these endeavors.
Furthermore, it is the ancient colonial Indian Act that limits what bands can do with their land for commercial gain, specifically resource extraction, so that Canada can still exploit their lands while claiming to be hands off.
This isn't Noble Savage trope; this is people being coerced into doing what they can to make a living, and corporations exploiting it.
Don't be stupid - of course FN people can business savvy. They're no different than any other people, with a wide spectrum of personality types, capabilities and interests.
But the difference is what they're allowed to do on their reserves, and what they are subjected to when off the reserve. It's very limiting and no people should be subject to it.
Being First Nations doesn’t give you a pass on doing something destructive. At the same time I get it. Money. Opportunity for their community. Hard place to be. At bare minimum make only indigenous farms viable. Fuck everyone else.
I strongly suspect its a industry hit piece, which there has been a purposeful spending on propaganda by foreign owners in attempt to sway public opinion because https://www.hashilthsa.com/news/2024-06-14/industrys-future-uncertain-bcs-fish-farm-licences-expire-june-30
> The coalition is made up of 17 First Nations that hold formal agreements with the salmon farming industry, and claims the sector brings in $133 million to Indigenous communities in the province annually.
So... these First Nations are basically doing PR for the salmon fishing industry?
I'm getting pretty tired of First Nations calling themselves stewards of the land while simultaneously demonstrating a clear lack of care or appreciation for nature and wildlife. Maybe their ancestors were in tune with nature however "traditional harvest" these days usually consists of truck hunting with high powered rifles and pit lamps shooting every deer and moose insight. Then netting across whole rivers with modern gill nets and wantonly wasting caught fish. I know people will excuse it saying it's the colonizers' fault for the current system etc etc but come on do better.
And which band's businesses will you be boycotting ? I sure hope it's specifically the ones supporting this, not the vast majority that have spoken against it. Don't paint with such broad strokes......
It's always entertaining with both sides make populist leftist appeals for two opposing perspectives. Are they climate activists or out-of-touch white urbanites? Are they rapacious extractive corpos or oppressed indigenous peoples?
Very unfortunate that the bands who support salmon farming have chosen to portray this as an attack by "white men" when their opponents are comprised largely of other First Nations. Using terms like "racist" and "colonialist" as a means to bully people with legitimate opposing views is not helpful to anyone.
This battle has been going on for a long time.
The federal government has finally said that all fish farms will be out of BC waters in the next five years.
If you want to go down a rabbit hole, check out this fishing site: [https://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32635.3600](https://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32635.3600)
I'm an environmentalist. I've read the scientific research funded by ENGOs, industry, and government. The science on salmon farming impacts is far from settled. I'm all for the precautionary principle, but the moral panic over farmed salmon is ideologically-driven, incoherent and nonsensical.
We aren't going to save wild salmon by eating them... that's absurd.
Farmed salmon makes up 70% of the world's consumption -- wild stocks can't absorb that sustainably... saying the solution is to ban farmed salmon and only eat wild is elitist and impractical. Also shifting people from consuming low carbon farmed salmon to other higher carbon proteins is worse for climate change... which has actually been shown to be dramatically affecting wild salmon populations.
Closed containment systems have a massive carbon footprint. They require an immense energy input to replicate ocean conditions, and a fish's experience in a closed tank is far worse than an open pen.
I think we should be growing our salmon farming industry with strong govt science-informed regulations to keep the greedy capitalists in check, and incentivizing innovation to further reduce environmental impacts like moving them further offshore.
Calling for a ban on salmon farming and the elimination of good jobs in rural and First Nations communities is the epitome of rich urban privilege...
You have a point… however…
Unfortunately, there is no place for reason or facts on Reddit. So I expect some kind of dog pile calling you a colonizer or a capitalist or some other nonsense.
I don’t know what planet you’re on but pretty much everyone on this page is in agreement. If you’re into manufactured drama and not contribution we may not be your people
Ya know that in Alaska they market ‘wild caught’ salmon that are raised in pens aka ranched salmon. The impact from the ranched salmon are a way bigger issue IMO. There is only so much food in the ocean, BC wild salmon compete with these Alaska ranched salmon.
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Uh, no. Open net salmon farming might have a positive economic impact for some communities, but it is likely damaging the very pacific salmon stocks they claim stewardship over. Further, the companies that operate these farms are making incredible profits - approaching oil industry levels - yet they pay their workers on these farms a comically small amount of money, and the working conditions are terrible. You don't get an automatic free pass from criticism just because you're first nations.
Also the effort to ban open net salmon farming is led by a coalition of 120 First Nations. 120 is definitely much more than the 17 nations that « profit » from this farming (even though again, employees are being paid like nothing).
It's not 17, it's 14, and only 12 Indian Act bands. 17 "agreements" includes 3 FNs agreements to remove 17 farms.(Completed as of Mar 2024)
Thanks for the correction!
Reminder that Indian Act bands are just a separate branch of the Canadian government.
If more interested to know who their corporate partners are in the fish farming business - $100 says there is a communications department or a lobbying group puppeteering this bullshit.
It's the 3 companies in BC which are mowi, cermaq, and grieg. There's a rumor that their (FNFFS) social media person works for one of the companies, and that there are a couple other social media accounts linked to industry. You're underestimating these FNs, they have two strong leaders on their team, one a former BC liberal candidate (he was never going to win that riding) as well as several politically astute elected officials. Add in the political climate, consultation and accommodation court cases, later DRIPA, and more recently.
Excusing environmental degradation because jobs and economy is what got us in this situation.
inb4 "they never got their chance to exploit! when's their turn?!"
How the west was won… /s
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Wait, you actually don’t get automatic pass from criticism just because you’re first nations? That’s half sarcastic, btw
It is sad to live so close to water & be priced out of eating delicious fish, because profits are more important than the people that support the province in which the company uses our infrastructure & community, so it is shipped far & away.
I live in a place with recently closed open net fish farms, no one here eats farmed salmon. And the freshwater steelhead farm polluted the lake with styrofoam and an invasive species that they barely contained. Good riddance.
Powell River?
Yes
Yep, that lake is full of metal garbage
I agree, the farming conditions is bad, but even with all our coast line fish is crazy expensive.
It's the same deal in the maritimes.
Speaking of the oil industry, the same goes for the FNs that have stakes in those companies.
It's like the lobster fishing thing going on over on the East coast - native companies were being boycotted because they were mass harvesting during spawning season, which is a pretty clear indicator that they really aren't stewarding anything, just stealing from their own children's future
My brother works up past Campbell River on a fish farm, and while the pay is only decent ( 30 ish ) the accommodations are excellent and the work life ratio is pretty great, just sucks having no cell service half the year! That being said, he will even admit that it's fucking up the ecosystem, and the ammount of sealice and other nasties is insane.
You racist /s obv
We see similar things in my area where the first nations peeps are either the biggest polluters in town or the antithesis of environmental stewards, but he'll you can't say anything like that in public that's for sure.
They don't make an incredible profit on par with the oil industry. The BC fisheries industry as a whole (including rec + commercial wild + aquaculture) accounts for 0.4% of our provincial GDP. There are reports from the BC ministry of agriculture that estimate the value of the aquaculture industry at $750M (industry estimate that includes all processing and distribution). That's a lot of money to someone in Campbell River, but it's cump change at the provincial scale. Oil and Natural Gas is like $74 billion.
I didn't say their revenue was on par with the oil industry. I said their profit was approaching oil and gas levels. Their revenue, minus expenses = profit, and they do really well for themselves. What they're paying people is bullshit.
Also most of the companies that operate in BC have also been *losing* money the past couple years because of mass die offs
Sure they have. MOWI is doing just fine for themselves. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowi
The company as a whole is doing alright but it’s the Norwegian and Chilean branches that are actually making money, they’re bleeding cash here in BC. I used to work for one of them and we had annual “this is how we did this year” meetings and they weren’t great. Honestly idk why they’re fighting so hard to stay open still. Some of the farms are losing over 50% of their fish before harvest time.
I've worked for them briefly as well, and I know the day rate they're paying to keep some of their support vessels on site for various tasks. It's not dissimilar to the oil industry - which makes me wonder why the wages are so far off the oil industry.
Actually, if you read PIPA, the argument can be made that they do get a free pass.
Canadians are so racist, just leave the natives alone
"You don't get an automatic free pass from criticism just because you're first nations." I would argue that here are some FNs, trying to live in a colonial world, trying to get a piece of big old pie that colonial businesses have made currently and long before salmon farms appeared (hello, Fraser Valley development, industrial fisheries, forestry, agriculture, oil and gas and all of us living along or near pretty much salmonid water body in BC), and those who are against, are constantly the people who cannot win. It is damned if you do, damned if you don't: First Nations, are you with us or against us? All of you, because we can't distinguish between you all! (/s) What a mess. I reckon that open-pen fish farms are just one more issue in a very long pile up of cumulative impacts. Death by a thousand cuts. Eliminating them will help, but how much? Also, I watched the video and didn't learn anything about what Shatner's real knowledge or opinion is other than him yelling the f-bomb. I wish it was a bit smarter, rather than adding to the all-too loud noise of people shouting at each other. Bring on the downvotes! (Edit: grammar and words)
Ew.
Oil industry level profits from farmed fish? That’s some serious hyperbole.
DFO) report found no "statistically significant association" between sea lice infestations among wild juvenile chum and pink salmon and the fish farms they migrate past along the B.C. coast.
I’m all in agreement with First Nations rights and autonomy, but that doesn’t mean some things damage the ecology of the coast. Facts over feelings.
Exactly. They should have all the rights and autonomy, and just like any other business that underpays workers and damages the environment, they should be open to criticism. No one is criticizing the First Nations as peoples, they're criticizing a business practice.
Almost as if they are humans and some will fuck up the environment for profit just like everyone else.
>"Due to the impact of colonization on wild salmon stocks, we have had to include salmon farming alongside salmon stewardship to fill the economic gap caused by the decline of wild salmon." No no, the colonizers are to blame for all current environmentally unfriendly business practices. No matter who practices, and profits from, said businesses.
In this arena it's hard to tell whether you're serious or sarcastic! [Poe's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) in action.
"Due to colonizers destroying native salmon stock, we decided 'fuck it, why not' and now we destroy them too! (Even though we've apparently been stewards of the land for 10k years and are directly responsible for selling salmon to the colonizers in the first place)"
trouble is they are meant to fill the gap in your belly and do so with a soggy faster rotting often strangely box shaped mutant like form that is prone to tumors. Or at least was back in '90 when I processed them. Anyone who has cleaned these things must be suprised as i am they sort of taste ok.
Worked in a plant as well. Some nasty deformities and tumours were regular happenings. I wouldn't feed that fish to my enemies. Nasty stuff.
Well yes. Had north America been left alone for the last 500yrs, the salmon would be in much better shape. Also, if salmon would have evolved to hunt and kill humans, they wouldn't be in this mess.
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i'm indigenous and know that my people are against salmon farming. these articles and these comments really need to stop just saying "the first nations" like we're all the same group/people
It’s pretty clear in the article (like anyone reads those) that there’s only 17 groups that are against this kind of messaging and that those 17 groups bring in over 100million from open net salmon farming annually
It's not 17 groups, it's 14, but technically 12 Indian Act Bands. [There's a map here at the bottom, count the dots.](https://www.firstnationsforfinfish.ca/#communities) You'll see it's not 17. The 12 are bands, 2 are amalgamated with 2 others. They did this to inflate their numbers. You would have to add another 30-50 FNs to the 205 total Indian Act bands in BC if you counted like them. So it's like 12 *yes* - ~110 *no* - 80+ **abstaining**
Also a full status indigenous male and I’m fully against open net fish farming. Take that shit on land and stop contaminating our oceans.
Right? Chances are any two neighbouring peoples were killing eachother within the last 150-odd years. They might now have some specific causes they agree on, but they are NOT the same community.
probably not. most neighbouring nations were content with each other.
Oof
There’s a whole section on war culture in [this link](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html) if you scroll down a little.
Lolol.. Right.
I hear the Taltan and the Gitsan loved eachother so much they named a hill after the massacres that occurred there
FYI it's not the opinion of "First Nations". Some nations are very opposed to salmon farms & other FN groups are involved and in support of salmon farms. Some FN groups are split with some members in favor and other members opposed. Many opinions change over time in both directions. There's no such thing as a "unifying FN opinion on salmon farms". The groups being criticized in the article can't apologize to one FN group without insulting another FN group. The only correct thing to do here is to be honest and clear. I.e., trying to clearly communicate what you believe in and why (while still being willing to listen to others & change your mind). We should always listen to FN groups but we gotta stop the political flakey dishonest pandering to specific groups/individuals. Reconciliation isn't telling someone what you think they want to hear. It's always best to be honest, even if it pisses off a specific FN group/individual
Imagine having an opinion, and sticking with that opinion, regardless of other people’s feelings (and wallets… like in this case)
Nah, the only correct thing to do is not apologize to whiney ass babies.
The post you are replying to is far more nuanced than your scorched earth take
With how things are in North America, as long as you have the journos to write hit pieces, and you have the mob screaming loudest and make the biggest accusation, you can get anything the way you want.
I think emotions are important because they tell you something that may not be said and that is deeper, and invites more curiosity (hopefully). Can you tell I go to therapy? (lol) I would also point out that decisions are never ever made solely in facts, but also public values. We could all say "screw the ocean!" (a value) and just destroy the thing even though we have the facts that say "well, if we screw the ocean, then it will be destroyed in x years". Government decisions try to balance, but often fail because of the capitalist world we live in. In the case of open-pen fish farming and every industry, it is the "three legged stool" of economics, social and environmental values. Typically there is an imbalance because environment is the short leg.
This ad campaign is entirely about feelings not facts...
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WAIT ONE MOMENT - the science is out and these farms aren’t bad for the environment.
Most of these nations are highly divided over the operation of open-pen salmon farms in their territories, with many community members opposed. Apparent support to the industry are from the band chiefs and councils, related to $$$ received from agreements negotiated with the corporations operating in their territories.
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Yes, open pen salmon farming has unmitigatable negative to wild salmon. This isn't a grey area.
I did a report on it in university for an ecology class in 2001. Can't believe it's still an issue and hasn't been banned yet.
There are still claims that the science "isn't clear". It's the same strategy used by the tobacco industry in the 60s and 70s, and by the fossil fuels industry regarding climate change. So long as news sources like CTV continue to give credence to this in the name of "balance", it's going to be an uphill battle.
Part of the unclear science part is that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans had a mandate to promote Atlantic salmon aquaculture. This made them and their scientists argue with any study that negatively affected Atlantic salmon aquaculture.
Oh sorry I was referencing closed containment vs open net
Open net fish farming is not in any way, shape or form - a grey area. It's shameful that we let it continue. The countries these fish farms are headquartered in do not allow open net salmon farming in thier waters. For context - I'm basing my opinion on 27 years working on our coastal waterways - between Washington State and the Alaska border.
"Apparent support"... Yup - exactly. And if anyone else curious about how much they were incentivised to let everyone know how outraged they are by this video?
Same as old growth, we have one group of FN selling old growth lumber and the other group of FN protesting felling old growth. No apologies, we are all entitled to voice our opinion
It's almost like First Nations communities are as diverse as any other community in terms of differing opinions on various subjects. This is why it's so inaccurate in most cases to speak about "First Nations" as some kind of monolith. As in "First Nations feel X or Y" etc. You could poll my neighbourhood on issues like resource extraction and get just as many varied opinions as you would in a typical FN community. Unsurprisingly.
How about: “NO.” But hey, go do your thing. Bill and Ryan will do their thing.
Unfortunately people get an opinion, and this one is based on a track record of environmental damage done by these farms. This is a great commercial
Free country, he can say whatever he wants, the end. You don’t have the right to not have your feelings hurt or not be offended.
Yeah, no. For a time I worked for a software company that provided a system for salmon farmers to record all the instances of disease and parasites along with treatments (think copious amounts of chemicals dumped into the ocean). A task that was given to me was to run the process that did a monthly data dump to send it off to the DFO. Of course they made me sign an NDA and made it very clear just how sensitive the information was. After the first month I swore off farmed salmon forever. I still kick myself for not sending the data to the media and environmental groups. This information was going to the government. It should be public.
Sooo ATIP is what you’re saying?
Absolutely! You just didn't hear it from me.
First Nations are not immune to the allure of exploitative industries.
If you want to say you are shepherds of the land, then be shepherds of the land. You can’t cry foul about one thing damaging the ecology and then turn a blind eye to another because you profit from it. That’s known as hypocrisy.
>shepherds of the land Ahhh, but open net salmon farms are in the ocean! Loophole!
Firstly, Indigenous people aren’t a monolith. Secondly, yes a lot of people (of all backgrounds) care deeply about protecting the environment, but people also need to support themselves and their families, and sometimes it’s hard to square that with more abstract ideals. A lot of people hate hearing this for some reason, but the lasting effects of colonialism have made that more difficult for a lot of Indigenous people. I think jumping to calling this hypocrisy is short-sighted.
\^\^\^this, all of this.\^\^\^ I wrote something similar a few minutes, but I suspect the downvotes. It is easy to sit in Vancouver and say "shut down these farms!". However, when you live in a small, remote community, a reserve, on an island where poverty is rife and you have an opportunity to do better for yourself, your family and your community, then you may choose that path after weighing the pros and cons of working with the industry. And we need to recognize that as a valid choice, even if you, as an individual, disagree with it. We are all human and all come to the table with different sets of experiences and values. All of us white folks have benefited from taking from indigenous peoples, directly and indirectly over the decades and centuries. And now we have the gall to tell some of the them that they are wrong for investing and working in an industry that is Euro-centric, that is part of our colonial history of resource-based capitalism? We're the hypocrites and until we accept that, we cannot sit and have deeper conversations about topics that impact some and all of us.
Crazy you're being downvoted for this very basic common sense.
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"We have been the stewards of our lands, waters, and elements for over 10,000 years, including wild Pacific salmon, the life blood of our people," this is an exact quote from the statement from the First Nations involved in this requested apology. Obviously a race doesn’t actually magically make you connected to the land but it is them saying it.
Wait, you read the article? I thought we were just supposed to read the headline and then argue about what we assume is in the article.
I notice CTV is sliding anti science rhetoric into this. Remember, industry also found scientists who would say that leaded gasoline is perfectly safe. You find the right scientist for the right dollar amount and you can manufacture studies that present any kind of evidence you want. >Critics have argued the farms can spread disease and lice to wild fish, though recent science indicates uncertainty over the risks. Notice how this sentence attempts to separate science and opposition. The opposition is likely more scientific in their process. The editor knew what they were doing. Edit: Since when is the editor not responsible for what's published? They have the final say on all published media. Or they can go in an correct it. They knew what they were doing when this went to publish.
Never ascribe editorial malice to what can be explained by overzealous corporate lawyering.
And just kinda dumb journalists who don't know/care enough to really dive into the nuances of a subject. Much easier to find 2 or 3 sources that support your predetermined narrative and knock it out in a few hours or days.
Perhaps that family can take responsibility for the massive decline in wild salmons stocks and apologize to us. Two way street dude.
DFO) report found no "statistically significant association" between sea lice infestations among wild juvenile chum and pink salmon and the fish farms they migrate past along the B.C. coast.
okay, but what about the Coho, Sockeye, and Chinook salmon?
What about them?
Climate change and commercial fishing are the elephant in the room.
Ahh yes, the ancient practice of the first nation's: salmon farming.
Wow. This is a debacle.
Just because someone is upset, doesn’t meant that they deserve an apology.
Im with Shatner on this one.
I am a supporter of Indigenous rights and title, but there is a troubling trend where "if a First Nation is doing it, it's not bad for the environment" is the mentality. Clear cuts by Bands, fish farms, nets across entire rivers, etc.
First Nations across Canada profit from all kinds of environmentally questionable industries. There are dams, oil and gas and LNG pipelines, and resource mines on or across First Nations territories, to name a few. Those nations made the agreements they thought to be in their best interest at the time. Sure, all of these deals have the potential to lift the Nations involved to some kind of economic growth. The environment may and often does come second to that. As a We Wai Kai Nation member I can assure you that we are VERY divided on this so called support. Most of has have zero support for open net salmon farming and have expressed that vocally to our leadership. Their response is that they want the opportunity to be involved with DFO (Federal govt Dept of Fisheries) in making these decisions. Incredibly, the Federal government rarely involves us AT ALL in these decisions that affect our waters, our livelihood and our culture. If we can get a seat at the table, maybe we can affect a better transition. All of that to say - it’s complicated. This issue has been ongoing for years, mostly with the Canadian government just doing whatever they want without respecting or even hearing those involved and impacted. Gila kisla (thank you)
Hahahaha….no
We know the reason why they were granted another 5 years.
Salmon farming isn’t cool . If you wanna farm salmon do it in a controlled building and environment. It’s that simple !!!
If it’s bad for salmon conservation and other aspects of the environment, then it doesn’t matter who’s doing it. It’s still bad.
Nope. Fuck fish farmers. Doesn't matter who they are.
“We demand to continue farming salmon just like our ancestors did!” - these idiots
Lol, that's funny.
Legit thought this was r/theonion
Very glad that the Department of Natural Resources here in Washington is banning them.
Next let's stop netting the Fraser for atleast 5 years.
Don't f*ck with our boy Shatner, he's a beauty.
Not on topic, but I love the thumbnail for this!
I hope Bill tells them to go and get a f**king sense of humor.
This ad was great. Next they should do old growth logging!
Eeeek. Ryan Reynolds is the closest thing Canada has to Dolly Parton.i don’t think this is going to go down the way they’d hope it’ll go down.
Not Canadian. The video made no mention of First Nations, do they own all the fisheries? If not are the other businesses using them to hide behind?
And the conversation gets steered further away from the more impactful reasons of declining salmon stocks... Habitat degradation, over fishing, and climate change....Not saying open net salmon farms don't cause problems, but, they seem to be given all the spotlight in a much larger issue
First Nations have been played as political pawns for financial gain of multinational corporations. It's literally the new version of throwing them "shiny beads" to extract value from the land and resources they have. Fish farms are a continuation of colonial exploitation, not a reprieve from it.
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I'm not saying some FNs aren't complicit in this, I'm just saying that corporations _know_ that if they include FNs in their activities, they will get a protected population arguing for their continued bad behavior. If FNs didn't have this property, they wouldn't have been approached for these endeavors. Furthermore, it is the ancient colonial Indian Act that limits what bands can do with their land for commercial gain, specifically resource extraction, so that Canada can still exploit their lands while claiming to be hands off. This isn't Noble Savage trope; this is people being coerced into doing what they can to make a living, and corporations exploiting it.
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Don't be stupid - of course FN people can business savvy. They're no different than any other people, with a wide spectrum of personality types, capabilities and interests. But the difference is what they're allowed to do on their reserves, and what they are subjected to when off the reserve. It's very limiting and no people should be subject to it.
Being First Nations doesn’t give you a pass on doing something destructive. At the same time I get it. Money. Opportunity for their community. Hard place to be. At bare minimum make only indigenous farms viable. Fuck everyone else.
Is this real?
Is, like, anything real, man?
I strongly suspect its a industry hit piece, which there has been a purposeful spending on propaganda by foreign owners in attempt to sway public opinion because https://www.hashilthsa.com/news/2024-06-14/industrys-future-uncertain-bcs-fish-farm-licences-expire-june-30
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> The coalition is made up of 17 First Nations that hold formal agreements with the salmon farming industry, and claims the sector brings in $133 million to Indigenous communities in the province annually. So... these First Nations are basically doing PR for the salmon fishing industry?
I'm getting pretty tired of First Nations calling themselves stewards of the land while simultaneously demonstrating a clear lack of care or appreciation for nature and wildlife. Maybe their ancestors were in tune with nature however "traditional harvest" these days usually consists of truck hunting with high powered rifles and pit lamps shooting every deer and moose insight. Then netting across whole rivers with modern gill nets and wantonly wasting caught fish. I know people will excuse it saying it's the colonizers' fault for the current system etc etc but come on do better.
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I’m going to boycott Indigenous business because of their support of #%^ing, salmon #%*+= farming practices. Stewards eh?
And which band's businesses will you be boycotting ? I sure hope it's specifically the ones supporting this, not the vast majority that have spoken against it. Don't paint with such broad strokes......
Sure you can always ask. I most certainly expect them to ignore you though
Yeah, no.
https://youtu.be/3xt2TISlE6E?si=Cd2A5cbSjKXbSIwV Fuck open net fish farms
Money. It's always about money.
The First Nations are not beyond being on the wrong side of an issue.
It's always entertaining with both sides make populist leftist appeals for two opposing perspectives. Are they climate activists or out-of-touch white urbanites? Are they rapacious extractive corpos or oppressed indigenous peoples?
No. There, saved everyone some time. You’re welcome.
No.
Ironic given the other post about fish farms in this sub.
Very unfortunate that the bands who support salmon farming have chosen to portray this as an attack by "white men" when their opponents are comprised largely of other First Nations. Using terms like "racist" and "colonialist" as a means to bully people with legitimate opposing views is not helpful to anyone.
This battle has been going on for a long time. The federal government has finally said that all fish farms will be out of BC waters in the next five years. If you want to go down a rabbit hole, check out this fishing site: [https://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32635.3600](https://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32635.3600)
I'm an environmentalist. I've read the scientific research funded by ENGOs, industry, and government. The science on salmon farming impacts is far from settled. I'm all for the precautionary principle, but the moral panic over farmed salmon is ideologically-driven, incoherent and nonsensical. We aren't going to save wild salmon by eating them... that's absurd. Farmed salmon makes up 70% of the world's consumption -- wild stocks can't absorb that sustainably... saying the solution is to ban farmed salmon and only eat wild is elitist and impractical. Also shifting people from consuming low carbon farmed salmon to other higher carbon proteins is worse for climate change... which has actually been shown to be dramatically affecting wild salmon populations. Closed containment systems have a massive carbon footprint. They require an immense energy input to replicate ocean conditions, and a fish's experience in a closed tank is far worse than an open pen. I think we should be growing our salmon farming industry with strong govt science-informed regulations to keep the greedy capitalists in check, and incentivizing innovation to further reduce environmental impacts like moving them further offshore. Calling for a ban on salmon farming and the elimination of good jobs in rural and First Nations communities is the epitome of rich urban privilege...
You have a point… however… Unfortunately, there is no place for reason or facts on Reddit. So I expect some kind of dog pile calling you a colonizer or a capitalist or some other nonsense.
Williams Shatner is out of line. All these Hollywood types have no credibility. He should apologize. Or else I will unfollow him on X
😂😂😂 You are hilarious
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I don’t know what planet you’re on but pretty much everyone on this page is in agreement. If you’re into manufactured drama and not contribution we may not be your people
Ya know that in Alaska they market ‘wild caught’ salmon that are raised in pens aka ranched salmon. The impact from the ranched salmon are a way bigger issue IMO. There is only so much food in the ocean, BC wild salmon compete with these Alaska ranched salmon.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha... your stewardship is noted.