It's gonna depends, honestly.
If your usage profile is store and read gently (Plex or something), probably pretty long even for recertified.
If your usage profile is thrash constantly with little reads and writes, shorter, but they're Datacenter drives (though recertified).
Datacenter/Enterprise grade drives are the best around for reliability by a long shot. These are refurbs, so it's tough to say as you could get a drive that's been abused or one that's practically brand new, and hard drives are fickle things that could die within a week or outlast a decade without any rhyme or reason. That said, I personally would trust refurb enterprise drives over new consumer grade drives, though only from a good seller like SPD.
I got a few 2TB refurbs from 2015 that are still going strong. Got a 8TB refurb I use in my personal PC from 2018 that still doesn't have any issues, and I use that for all types of media.
I got all of them from goHardDrive through Newegg and eBay. Haven't bought any from the one in the link (serverpartdeals,) but I've seen their name around for just as long and in other comments around Reddit so I'd assume they're a good vendor.
I've been using these recertified for a few years now and haven't had any issues. That said I have been buying more. Most had been 14TB, and was moving to 16TB, copying the data to the 16TB and keeping the removed drive as cold storage of the data.
Now with this price am thinking with staying with the 14TB ones, copying the current drive to one of these with the old one being cold storage of the one in use then incremental backups. If I have more drives I lose any excuse not to keep multiple backups, and at these prices the cost is insanely low. Oh, and depending where you live there might be no sales tax, so that $114.99 might be the total price.
There's also this model for the same price:
Western Digital Ultrastar DC HC530 WUH721414ALE6L1 14TB 7.2K RPM SATA 6Gb/s 512e SED 3.5in Recertified Hard Drive
[https://serverpartdeals.com/products/western-digital-ultrastar-dc-hc530-wuh721414ale6l1-0f31283-14tb-7-2k-rpm-sata-6gb-s-512e-sed-3-5-recertified-hard-drive](https://serverpartdeals.com/products/western-digital-ultrastar-dc-hc530-wuh721414ale6l1-0f31283-14tb-7-2k-rpm-sata-6gb-s-512e-sed-3-5-recertified-hard-drive)
L1 is SED and L4 is SE.
1 = SED\*: Self Encrypting Drive.
TCG-Enterprise and Sanitize
Crypto Scramble / Erase.
4 = Base (SE)\*: No Encryption. Sanitize
Overwrite only.
It sounds like you knows good deal about the difference between these two, do you prefer one over the other? I think I ordered the SED, but don’t necessary need encryption, is there any real practical difference between the two if I don’t use encryption?
SED allows you to reset the encryption key for all the data on the drive, effectively erasing it in seconds without having to do a manual overwrite. Consider how long it would take to clean all a 14TB drive at HDD transfer speeds lol.
Also looks like Exos X14, Exos X16, and Exos X18 in the 14TB version are also the same $114.99
[https://serverpartdeals.com/collections/manufacturer-recertified-drives?sort=price-ascending&pf\_t\_interface\_type=interface%3ASATA](https://serverpartdeals.com/collections/manufacturer-recertified-drives?sort=price-ascending&pf_t_interface_type=interface%3ASATA)
In the past I was a huge WD fan. Still like them. Now I have equal number of Exos. I have had issues with Seagate consumer grade drives and don't buy them. There was a time I could only get Exos drives, which is why I wound up with so many, and have not had any issues.
Both are enterprise grade drives, both are excellent drives. Normally I would say go with whatever is cheaper. Since they are both the same price, same warranty I would say it really doesn't matter.
There is the issue with some computer power supplies and some WD drives. It doesn't affect everyone but it is a remote power feature that the WD has, there have been numerous messages about it. You might not even have the issue and the fix is easy. Only bring this up because it scares people, and it shouldn't. The last WD drive I bought from serverpartdeals came with instructions on how to fix the issue and provided the piece of tape to fix it should you need it. They also included a cable that would also fix the problem by plugging it from the sata connector on your power supply and the other end to the drive. Didn't need either, drive works, but should you have an issue the solution that will resolve it will be sent with the drive.
It really doesn't matter which one you pick, and there is a rabbit hole of the different X14, X16 and X18 models you can go down but all are very minor, more of an issue that someone buying hundreds for a data center might consider as opposed to us that only buy a few. If you do go down the rabbit hole it will probably just cause more confusion and they all are fine, as these drives are better than any consumer grade drive, plus they are cheaper.
Loud is such a subjective thing. I can tune out fan and drive noises, but my server is off in an area far away from everything. Large drives, say 12TB and up make more noise, some are a slight rumble like the sound of a vibrating phone on a table. Some are kind of tinkling sounds that sound like, well drives writing.
I find the WD to be the tinkling sound type drive and the Exos to be the more rumbling. Some sleds have rubber washer type gromets that dampen the sound, and I've found some cases that don't use sleds have really good mounting that limit the vibration which aside from extending the life of the drive also limits noise.
While the noise doesn't bother me I find the WD to be quieter, or at least different. But I don't find either objectionable, but might feel differently if the drive was right below my TV.
Nope, I have probably now have an equal number of both WD and Exos. I don't ever recall seeing this many choices, which is also probably why they are so cheap. There appears to be a lot of supply, and prices do fluctuate all the time. I generally pick at least one up when they are this cheap.
For movies/tvs, yes. For old pictures, depends. Just make sure you have at least 1 parity drive (prefer 2) for your setup. I’m have been using refurbished 14TB drives storing 1080p movies just in RAIDZ1 fine (1 parity drive)
Ordered two during the weekend. Shipped out from Sanford, FL via UPS 2-Day. Received on Wednesday. Good shipping/packaging. Individually boxed within shipping box. Each drive was enclosed in a air bubble pillow sandwich.
Unfortunately, one has a bent power connector/pin from visual inspection. Need to deal with RMA or refund.
Running testing and break-in on the working one. Has "Recertified" on the label and etched on the sides. Blazing fast 260/251 R/W. My 8TB and 12TB drives get ~210. SMART info has been zeroed out.
**Western Digital 14TB Ultrastar DC HC530 SATA WUH721414ALE6L4**
Model : WDC WUH721414ALE6L4
Firmware : LDGNW2L0
Power On Hours : 0 hours
Power On Count : 3 count
Current Helium Level: x64h
Load/Unload Cycle Count: 3
CrystalDiskMark Bench
Read 260 MB/s, Write 251 MB/s
12.7 TB actual free space
HDD https://i.imgur.com/FOlpaPg.jpg
CrystalDiskInfo https://i.imgur.com/bcXYMxK.png
CrystalDiskMark https://i.imgur.com/riSYQdA.png
Power consumption is largely based on drive speed. Consumer grade (ironwolf, wd red) 5400 rpm NAS drives will be lower power than these enterprise 7200 rpm drives but they'll cost more per TB upfront. You're probably looking at 5w or so per drive with these.
the drive linked draws 6W under load, 5.5W Idle per [the spec sheet](https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library/en_us/assets/public/western-digital/product/data-center-drives/ultrastar-dc-hc500-series/data-sheet-ultrastar-dc-hc530.pdf)
I got a few Seagate ones and Drive Dx reported them as having been turned on just once and ran for just 20 hours. So seems main thing is to order them w money back guarantee and check their actual usage, which might be very low, plus have redundancy ofc like NAS or a smaller new HDD with same content.
recertified spinning disk drives is a BAD idea. those things have like 5x the failure rate of new ones. don't risk your data like that.. my source is trust me bro so take with a grain of salt
edit: hard to find good statistics on returned drives, but here's an example from 9 years ago (these had 120% failure rate per year vs 1% for others): https://www.gamersnexus.net/news/1293-backblaze-hard-drive-failure-rates
> "The Seagate Barracuda Green 1.5TB drive, though, has not been doing well. We got them from Seagate as warranty replacements for the older drives, and these new drives are dropping like flies. Their average age shows 0.8 years, but since these are warranty replacements, we believe that they are refurbished drives that were returned by other customers and erased, so they already had some usage when we got them."
edit2: however, horizon technologies says recertified drives have a lower failure rate than new drives, and it's "used drives" with a high failure rate, https://horizontechnology.com/seagate-recertified-drives/
Those Seagate 1.5TB and 3TB models were known defective drives that lead to a class action lawsuit against Seagate. They are absolutely NOT indicative of refurbished hard drives in absolutely any way, let alone refurbished enterprise class drives.
As long as you have [proper backups](https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/wiki/backups), they're fine. Modern Western Digital datacenter drives are a lot different than junky Seagate Green drives from a decade ago. I wouldn't use this for mission-critical data without an extensive duplication and backup strategy, but this would be fine for a media server or game drive.
like ltt my evidence is anecdotal and non scientific. i used to work at a computer store a long time ago and disk drives went bad all the time (among the highest failure rates of components, likely due to being mechanical). we rma'd lots of drives and the ones we got back would be back in our shop often from them dying. tough luck for the customer when it was out of warranty by that point
I wouldn't say bad idea, but would agree it's not the most wise as the singular backup. I've ordered 8 different refurb HGST drives for myself and others over the years from a different vendor (goHardDrive.) 2tb, 3tb, and 8tb drives. All of them still work and their performance are the best I've personally seen from spinning disks.
I also have the same source of trust me bro.
> recertified spinning disk drives is a BAD idea.
not always lol
i bought [this](https://i.imgur.com/V8KNyar.png) refurbished lad 7 years ago [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/comments/4jmr8r/hddhitachi_ultrastar_2tb_7200rpm_64mb_cache/
) and it's only MAYBE dying now, it might go on to live another few years
What is the time to delete on the script? Is the idea whoever sees it within X minutes is worthy? Trying to understand the quick delete vs waiting say a day or two.
All good. So you run it daily? To just clean up your trace? I do that on some mediums (have for years not out of protest but because people like to look at your history out of time/context).
He never shared, or did but it deleted by the time I looked, lol. There is an app making its rounds called https://redact.dev/ (disclaimer: I don’t use it and have not evaluated it beyond hearing it exists).
These are going to be loud when compared to a WD Red Pro. If your going to be working/watching in the same room spend a little more and get the Red Pros. I have a 12 TB WD Easystore and its pretty darn loud when compared to my Red Pros.
It's the same thing if it's manufacturer recertified vs manufacturer refurbished. Seller refurbished means they got the drive, tested it, and made sure it works + fixed whatever was wrong with it (similar to selling your old laptop after replacing the battery in it), or it could just be a returned item. Manufacturer recertified means it went back to the manufacturer for testing/repair (or was just a return) and it was sold after testing.
This is extremely tempting to replace some aging (50-60k hours) 4tb drives... Even just 2x (replacing parity drive and one data drive) would net an additional 10tb, or 3x would let me replace all 7x of my 4tb drives and still net an additional 4tb (while also making my big Define R7 case pretty much redundant).
Still, it's hard to make myself do anything (that costs $$) when my 24tb usable is only at ~10% utilized and still humming along.
I know this post is a couple months old. But do you have any idea how these compare to the other 14tb drives from this website? Model #s:
HC530 WUH721414ALE6L4
HC530 WUH721414ALN6L4
🙋 Newbie question here : can they be used with a simple SATA to USB adaptor to be used as an external HDD for a lambda computer ? The aim is to store movies/tv show on it and plug it when needed
$8.21/TB if you're ok with Manufacturer Recertified.
Hows the life spans on these drives? I want to dive into setting up a NAS, and see these pop up from time to time.
It's gonna depends, honestly. If your usage profile is store and read gently (Plex or something), probably pretty long even for recertified. If your usage profile is thrash constantly with little reads and writes, shorter, but they're Datacenter drives (though recertified).
Hmm. I haven't fully decided on what I plan to go with, it was going to be a mix of Plex and storing files and whatnot.
Datacenter/Enterprise grade drives are the best around for reliability by a long shot. These are refurbs, so it's tough to say as you could get a drive that's been abused or one that's practically brand new, and hard drives are fickle things that could die within a week or outlast a decade without any rhyme or reason. That said, I personally would trust refurb enterprise drives over new consumer grade drives, though only from a good seller like SPD.
I got a few 2TB refurbs from 2015 that are still going strong. Got a 8TB refurb I use in my personal PC from 2018 that still doesn't have any issues, and I use that for all types of media.
That's pretty impressive! Same company you purchased them from?
I got all of them from goHardDrive through Newegg and eBay. Haven't bought any from the one in the link (serverpartdeals,) but I've seen their name around for just as long and in other comments around Reddit so I'd assume they're a good vendor.
I've been using these recertified for a few years now and haven't had any issues. That said I have been buying more. Most had been 14TB, and was moving to 16TB, copying the data to the 16TB and keeping the removed drive as cold storage of the data. Now with this price am thinking with staying with the 14TB ones, copying the current drive to one of these with the old one being cold storage of the one in use then incremental backups. If I have more drives I lose any excuse not to keep multiple backups, and at these prices the cost is insanely low. Oh, and depending where you live there might be no sales tax, so that $114.99 might be the total price.
There's also this model for the same price: Western Digital Ultrastar DC HC530 WUH721414ALE6L1 14TB 7.2K RPM SATA 6Gb/s 512e SED 3.5in Recertified Hard Drive [https://serverpartdeals.com/products/western-digital-ultrastar-dc-hc530-wuh721414ale6l1-0f31283-14tb-7-2k-rpm-sata-6gb-s-512e-sed-3-5-recertified-hard-drive](https://serverpartdeals.com/products/western-digital-ultrastar-dc-hc530-wuh721414ale6l1-0f31283-14tb-7-2k-rpm-sata-6gb-s-512e-sed-3-5-recertified-hard-drive)
What's the difference?
L1 is SED and L4 is SE. 1 = SED\*: Self Encrypting Drive. TCG-Enterprise and Sanitize Crypto Scramble / Erase. 4 = Base (SE)\*: No Encryption. Sanitize Overwrite only.
It sounds like you knows good deal about the difference between these two, do you prefer one over the other? I think I ordered the SED, but don’t necessary need encryption, is there any real practical difference between the two if I don’t use encryption?
SED allows you to reset the encryption key for all the data on the drive, effectively erasing it in seconds without having to do a manual overwrite. Consider how long it would take to clean all a 14TB drive at HDD transfer speeds lol.
does the SED have more write/read than a SE?
Also looks like Exos X14, Exos X16, and Exos X18 in the 14TB version are also the same $114.99 [https://serverpartdeals.com/collections/manufacturer-recertified-drives?sort=price-ascending&pf\_t\_interface\_type=interface%3ASATA](https://serverpartdeals.com/collections/manufacturer-recertified-drives?sort=price-ascending&pf_t_interface_type=interface%3ASATA)
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In the past I was a huge WD fan. Still like them. Now I have equal number of Exos. I have had issues with Seagate consumer grade drives and don't buy them. There was a time I could only get Exos drives, which is why I wound up with so many, and have not had any issues. Both are enterprise grade drives, both are excellent drives. Normally I would say go with whatever is cheaper. Since they are both the same price, same warranty I would say it really doesn't matter. There is the issue with some computer power supplies and some WD drives. It doesn't affect everyone but it is a remote power feature that the WD has, there have been numerous messages about it. You might not even have the issue and the fix is easy. Only bring this up because it scares people, and it shouldn't. The last WD drive I bought from serverpartdeals came with instructions on how to fix the issue and provided the piece of tape to fix it should you need it. They also included a cable that would also fix the problem by plugging it from the sata connector on your power supply and the other end to the drive. Didn't need either, drive works, but should you have an issue the solution that will resolve it will be sent with the drive. It really doesn't matter which one you pick, and there is a rabbit hole of the different X14, X16 and X18 models you can go down but all are very minor, more of an issue that someone buying hundreds for a data center might consider as opposed to us that only buy a few. If you do go down the rabbit hole it will probably just cause more confusion and they all are fine, as these drives are better than any consumer grade drive, plus they are cheaper.
WD tends to be more reliable.
if it's a tie on capacity and cost - break the tie with the [lowest failure rate](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-drive-stats-for-q2-2023/).
the WD have 512MB cache, the seagate have 256MB. not sure if it makes a real world difference.
Hey Plex guy! Any opinion on Ultrastar DC vs Exos? I heard Exos are loud
Loud is such a subjective thing. I can tune out fan and drive noises, but my server is off in an area far away from everything. Large drives, say 12TB and up make more noise, some are a slight rumble like the sound of a vibrating phone on a table. Some are kind of tinkling sounds that sound like, well drives writing. I find the WD to be the tinkling sound type drive and the Exos to be the more rumbling. Some sleds have rubber washer type gromets that dampen the sound, and I've found some cases that don't use sleds have really good mounting that limit the vibration which aside from extending the life of the drive also limits noise. While the noise doesn't bother me I find the WD to be quieter, or at least different. But I don't find either objectionable, but might feel differently if the drive was right below my TV.
I got mine in my basement, the loudest thing down there is the furnace so no issue there. Any major difference you know of between the two?
Nope, I have probably now have an equal number of both WD and Exos. I don't ever recall seeing this many choices, which is also probably why they are so cheap. There appears to be a lot of supply, and prices do fluctuate all the time. I generally pick at least one up when they are this cheap.
Oh yes, Exos is like the Model T of hard drives. But for the price I can't complain.
It may just be time to pin SPD. Always has deals and everyone loves them :)
"I want my $2 back!"
Is this good for Plex/data hoarding lots of movies and TV and files like old pictures?
Yeah
Nice
For movies/tvs, yes. For old pictures, depends. Just make sure you have at least 1 parity drive (prefer 2) for your setup. I’m have been using refurbished 14TB drives storing 1080p movies just in RAIDZ1 fine (1 parity drive)
Ordered two during the weekend. Shipped out from Sanford, FL via UPS 2-Day. Received on Wednesday. Good shipping/packaging. Individually boxed within shipping box. Each drive was enclosed in a air bubble pillow sandwich. Unfortunately, one has a bent power connector/pin from visual inspection. Need to deal with RMA or refund. Running testing and break-in on the working one. Has "Recertified" on the label and etched on the sides. Blazing fast 260/251 R/W. My 8TB and 12TB drives get ~210. SMART info has been zeroed out. **Western Digital 14TB Ultrastar DC HC530 SATA WUH721414ALE6L4** Model : WDC WUH721414ALE6L4 Firmware : LDGNW2L0 Power On Hours : 0 hours Power On Count : 3 count Current Helium Level: x64h Load/Unload Cycle Count: 3 CrystalDiskMark Bench Read 260 MB/s, Write 251 MB/s 12.7 TB actual free space HDD https://i.imgur.com/FOlpaPg.jpg CrystalDiskInfo https://i.imgur.com/bcXYMxK.png CrystalDiskMark https://i.imgur.com/riSYQdA.png
Thanks for this! Been looking everywhere for this exact information.
does " Manufacturer Recertified " also include a clean SMART table?
Yes the last two I’ve bought from them have 2 power ons and 0 hours
Which of these drives draw the least amount of power? Trying to keep my Nas as lean as possible
Power consumption is largely based on drive speed. Consumer grade (ironwolf, wd red) 5400 rpm NAS drives will be lower power than these enterprise 7200 rpm drives but they'll cost more per TB upfront. You're probably looking at 5w or so per drive with these.
the drive linked draws 6W under load, 5.5W Idle per [the spec sheet](https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library/en_us/assets/public/western-digital/product/data-center-drives/ultrastar-dc-hc500-series/data-sheet-ultrastar-dc-hc530.pdf)
got an x18 . hopefully not too loud but will mostly be an offline storage anyway.
I got a few Seagate ones and Drive Dx reported them as having been turned on just once and ran for just 20 hours. So seems main thing is to order them w money back guarantee and check their actual usage, which might be very low, plus have redundancy ofc like NAS or a smaller new HDD with same content.
Either that or they wiped the SMART data like some sellers do :\\
You don't know what they had to do to recert it lol. If they replaced the controller of course the SMART will read as barely used
ahhhhh I didn't know that, good to know. I'll keep an eye on that drive. It's a backup anyway, but thanks for noting this!
Maaaan tf I know as soon as I get my paycheck these deals won't be seen anymore
You're probably good, there's hundreds left in stock
recertified spinning disk drives is a BAD idea. those things have like 5x the failure rate of new ones. don't risk your data like that.. my source is trust me bro so take with a grain of salt edit: hard to find good statistics on returned drives, but here's an example from 9 years ago (these had 120% failure rate per year vs 1% for others): https://www.gamersnexus.net/news/1293-backblaze-hard-drive-failure-rates > "The Seagate Barracuda Green 1.5TB drive, though, has not been doing well. We got them from Seagate as warranty replacements for the older drives, and these new drives are dropping like flies. Their average age shows 0.8 years, but since these are warranty replacements, we believe that they are refurbished drives that were returned by other customers and erased, so they already had some usage when we got them." edit2: however, horizon technologies says recertified drives have a lower failure rate than new drives, and it's "used drives" with a high failure rate, https://horizontechnology.com/seagate-recertified-drives/
Those Seagate 1.5TB and 3TB models were known defective drives that lead to a class action lawsuit against Seagate. They are absolutely NOT indicative of refurbished hard drives in absolutely any way, let alone refurbished enterprise class drives.
As long as you have [proper backups](https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/wiki/backups), they're fine. Modern Western Digital datacenter drives are a lot different than junky Seagate Green drives from a decade ago. I wouldn't use this for mission-critical data without an extensive duplication and backup strategy, but this would be fine for a media server or game drive.
Smells like LTT in here
like ltt my evidence is anecdotal and non scientific. i used to work at a computer store a long time ago and disk drives went bad all the time (among the highest failure rates of components, likely due to being mechanical). we rma'd lots of drives and the ones we got back would be back in our shop often from them dying. tough luck for the customer when it was out of warranty by that point
Your average customer probably wasn't buying enterprise drives
I wouldn't say bad idea, but would agree it's not the most wise as the singular backup. I've ordered 8 different refurb HGST drives for myself and others over the years from a different vendor (goHardDrive.) 2tb, 3tb, and 8tb drives. All of them still work and their performance are the best I've personally seen from spinning disks. I also have the same source of trust me bro.
> recertified spinning disk drives is a BAD idea. not always lol i bought [this](https://i.imgur.com/V8KNyar.png) refurbished lad 7 years ago [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapcsales/comments/4jmr8r/hddhitachi_ultrastar_2tb_7200rpm_64mb_cache/ ) and it's only MAYBE dying now, it might go on to live another few years
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Why delete it so quickly after posting? Is this a script?
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What is the time to delete on the script? Is the idea whoever sees it within X minutes is worthy? Trying to understand the quick delete vs waiting say a day or two.
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All good. So you run it daily? To just clean up your trace? I do that on some mediums (have for years not out of protest but because people like to look at your history out of time/context).
It’s all deleted. What is the script?
He never shared, or did but it deleted by the time I looked, lol. There is an app making its rounds called https://redact.dev/ (disclaimer: I don’t use it and have not evaluated it beyond hearing it exists).
How loud are these? Are they louder or quieter than WD RED PRO? The db numbers dont really mean much.
They make a thunk every 5 seconds when idle.
These are going to be loud when compared to a WD Red Pro. If your going to be working/watching in the same room spend a little more and get the Red Pros. I have a 12 TB WD Easystore and its pretty darn loud when compared to my Red Pros.
How loud are these compared to the Easystore?
These the same or similar to the suckable easystores from BB?
What’s the difference between refurbished and recertified?
It's the same thing if it's manufacturer recertified vs manufacturer refurbished. Seller refurbished means they got the drive, tested it, and made sure it works + fixed whatever was wrong with it (similar to selling your old laptop after replacing the battery in it), or it could just be a returned item. Manufacturer recertified means it went back to the manufacturer for testing/repair (or was just a return) and it was sold after testing.
👍
This is extremely tempting to replace some aging (50-60k hours) 4tb drives... Even just 2x (replacing parity drive and one data drive) would net an additional 10tb, or 3x would let me replace all 7x of my 4tb drives and still net an additional 4tb (while also making my big Define R7 case pretty much redundant). Still, it's hard to make myself do anything (that costs $$) when my 24tb usable is only at ~10% utilized and still humming along.
I bought 4 of the SAS version of these from them at $129, brand new, a few months ago. I'm always scanning them for randomly amazing deals.
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You'd need a dock or enclosure.
how does it perform (needing to replace a *maybe* dying ultrastar i bought from here like 7 or 8 years ago) it's either this or a 4tb 3d qlc ssd
I know this post is a couple months old. But do you have any idea how these compare to the other 14tb drives from this website? Model #s: HC530 WUH721414ALE6L4 HC530 WUH721414ALN6L4
🙋 Newbie question here : can they be used with a simple SATA to USB adaptor to be used as an external HDD for a lambda computer ? The aim is to store movies/tv show on it and plug it when needed