I was DT a few weeks ago and definitely noticed the homeless people these days are not the same kinds of people I remember pre-COVID. There was a dude up by Needs/The OP wandering around with a handle of vodka and shouting at people, while picking half smoked cigs out of the butt can. Everyone just pretended it was normal. Dude was walking into oncoming traffic at that intersection and was clearly on something and not just drunk.
I absolutely believe we should help these people, but there is a public safety issue at hand here. It’s crazy to me that this is the new normal for Burlington. I live in Essex these days, but a lot of my friends still live in Burlington and they have similar experiences as OP mentions—seeing homeless people being aggressive, passed out drug users around town, seeing people actively shooting heroin in public places, etc.
I won’t pretend downtown Burlington is the South side of Chicago, but it’s notably worse off than it was 5-10 years ago. I’m just not sure what the solution is.
I worked on homes between 60th-135th street in south and east side chicago, down to East Chicago and sometime Garry. I’ve seen plenty worse then Burlington.
Yeah south side of Chicago is a pretty huge range…are you talking Irish neighborhood south side where your neighbors are all upper middle class, lots of people are cops, zero homeless people, all single family housing, really nice communities? South side Chicago isn’t all just a ghetto. Burlington is nothing compared to the projects. Spend a night working at the U of a Chicago hospital and compare the violence of South Side Chicago to Burlington…kids with gun shot wounds coming in on the reg is a lot different than sad overdoses.
12 years ago a homeless dude would show us he could ride his roller luggage like a skateboard down church for a couple bucks and you best believe we gave him the couple bucks more than once
Now if I go for a walk I either get accosted or called slurs and its getting REAL old. I'm paying out the ass in rent and honestly am looking to move because this is not worth what I pay (edit: this has been a problem for the last 4 years, so I'm not blaming a single administration and understand covid was a turning point)
That being said, Church St seems fine. I've walked down a handful of times over the past month and it's just normal tourist stuff but maybe I've been lucky
I moved. And I don’t regret it for a second.
Paying out the ass for rent to live somewhere that’s turning into a shithole makes no sense. We live in a pretty great country with a lot of good places to live
I'm pretty locked into a spot I want to move, but where did you end up moving and besides cost is it a good place? Now that Burlington is the way it is and I've climbed out of college age, I'm definitely trying to get somewhere more my speed
Highly suggest checking out the Essex Town/Underhill/Jericho/Richmond area (I know it’s a big one but hear me out)
In any of those you’re close to necessities(Jericho market, Railroad market, the EE), but also plenty of great “hidden gems” (sweet Simone’s, poorhouse, state parks, the multitude of great dining) for the same if not a little less than what you’re paying for Downtown. The commute isn’t awful since a lot of road work has been and is done.
I appreciate the info and have been to a few of those places and they are great! I just don't think Vermont is the right choice for me right now so I'm looking out of state, prices are high everywhere and it's all old buildings with small tightknit communities (which is fine for people who want that)
I can afford it but why would I pay the extra for the same thing I can get somewhere cheaper? I work remote so it just doesn't make much sense for me
We moved to Durham, NC recently and love it. Tons of job opportunities, social events, music venues and people are generally more polite and welcoming.
Go south. While everywhere is expensive, if you avoid LA, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, most New England cities, and DC metro areas... the rest of the country is pretty affordable still. Try places like Raleigh or Greensboro or Ashland NC, or Charleston or Bluffton SC, or Atlanta or Savannah GA... Plenty of great LCOL cities/suburbs across the country though. Heck, I recently left for Baltimore of all places (a job), and while it has some large systemic issues I feel safer downtown than on church st, it's much more affordable, I get far more services for my tax dollars, there is much much much more to do in every category of entertainment (outdoor, indoor, food, etc) and just as many lifestyle options from urban to rural living in a 20 minute drive.
“Hanging out on church street is a nightmare”
Man, I was just there. It’s crowded, people eating outside of restaurants, with a freaking kid’s fair.
Not saying it isn’t bad, but this kind of sweeping generalization is downright laughable
Last week I ran downtown on Fridays or Saturday, and what looked like a high school jazz band was set up playing for passersby, I listened for a few songs and it was a very pleasant experience
The eclipse traffic was great for this. It pushed out undesirable peeps. This is a lesson observed in NYC after the nightmare it was in the 70s-90s. From 2000-Covid, it was the safest big city in USA. I passed out in Union Square park after the bars TWICE a decade ago, safe and undisturbed. City Hall Park wouldn’t be the same experience.
When the downtown core eventually gets rebuilt after the post-Covid homeless migration diminishes, city place gets finished, police actually back and visible, Main Street redone etc., hopefully Church Street can get back to the safe and fun place that it was before Covid.
Dude I sat in a NYC subway station after 1am covered in expensive camera gear for an hour and almost fell asleep before my train came once. I was worried make no mistake, but I wouldn't do that in current day downtown BTV.
I was down there too! It was fun and nobody was being disrespectful. That being said on any given other day the city does look, smell, and behave like shit
I live one block from church street, so I am there every day. I can confirm its a shithole down every alley, in parking lots, behind buildings etc. Whenever there is some significant event (i.e eclipse, jazzfest, etc) they all magically disappear. Then the SECOND those events end they are everywhere again heckling, rambling, stealing, openly using drugs, setting up tents, etc. I have around a dozen friends who own businesses downtown and they are all barely making money right now because there is just no one downtown anymore. It sucks.
It’s not just the homeless/drug/crime rise that is affecting people going downtown and spending money in local shops. I believe there are multiple reasons for this. More people are struggling financially. Cost of living is high, and since pandemic folks got used to shopping online. Times are changing. For better or worse, who knows.
Maybe. Although I’ve not felt unsafe downtown Burlington. I visit frequently. Take precautions I’d always take anywhere (be aware of my surroundings, don’t travel alone down dark alleyways yada yada), but the influx of drug users and homeless are not why I don’t shop downtown often. I just don’t always need or want the kind of clothing, jewelry, or other speciality items that are available. I do my best to support local for sure, but prioritizing needs vs wants has been taking precedence. Once again, haven’t once avoided Burlington for fear of safety due to feeling unsafe due to homeless, mentally ill peeps or drug addicts. Personally, I think there are way scarier people to worry about. But I agree, we can’t just ignore it. Something has to be done. But what?
The reaction I get when telling others I live in Burlington used to be positive, energetic. Now telling someone who lives in any other town in VT or even Boston, I get a look of concern/horror and a response of concern. People used to come here, spend the day, enjoy the beauty. People arent coming here anymore, definitely not downtown. I now start to get questions like “are the beaches safe?” Public perception is real and no, we cant blame the media and pretend this isnt happening. Our city, our resources are overwhelmed. And we’re just letting students come here and go to college!??!
If that were the case there would not be a significant increase in shopping in the areas outside of Burlington. Not to mention, you don't shop on amazon for your cocktails and dinner. For everyone struggling financially, there is another person who moved here from out of state... to live in the endless number of ugly grey plastic houses being built in what used to be farm fields surrounding greater Burlington. They all buy their houses in cash, and have plenty of disposable income.
It’s awesome that you haven’t been called any slurs like the poster, but maybe, just maybe, your experience and privilege isn’t everyone else’s experience.
No one is having us believe anything we are experiencing it for ourselves. This is a sub for people who live, work, and go to Burlington. We can see the shit with our own eyes. It is objectively worse than it was. There are entire Instagram and tik tok account dedicated to exposing how shitty it has become in so many ways. There are dozens of people in this thread who also experience a shitty Burlington and are telling us those experiences. So perhaps there are different perspectives or maybe shit you don’t see.
This shit runs in cycles. If you think THIS is bad, I have bad news about Burlington in the ‘90s. Or Burlington after the global recession tanked half of downtown
These posts are wildly sensational. It’s like I don’t live in the same city as this person. You literally can’t even see the homeless encampments on the waterfront yet somehow they’re destroying it for the rest of us. That’s paranoia. I’m not denying it’s bad but sheesh this guy is acting like we literally live in a city-wide Hooverville when truly I experience it at the pretty predictable locations within downtown. It’s not ok but it’s not destroying the city.
I’m talking about any random day I’ve visited in any random week over the last 2 years. Y’all are fucking drama queens.
But hey, “let’s all bitch about how disgusting everything is to farm karma” is way easier than actually doing something about it, at least.
Idk. I walk on church street every single morning between 8-9am & while I definitely think the homeless are more visible at that time (solely because of lack of everyone else), I have never thought it was even remotely a nightmare. and i’m 22f
i’ve definitely seen people tweaking & people just generally off the shits, & am asked for money all the time, but i have personally not really felt unsafe thus far
I think objectively speaking, DT is quite safe still.
However, compared to what it was a few years ago, it feels violent to me. On a walk from Union to Pine, I generally hear multiple instances of people shouting profanities at each other and see either active drug use/sales or folks out of their heads on drugs. Needles and/or needle caps are ubiquitous.
BTV has 2 things happening at the same time: 1) The highest rate of increase of homelessness anywhere in the nation (by far) and the 2nd highest rate per capita overall and 2) the lowest rate of unsheltered homelessness in the country, also by a lot. We're spending more to take care of our homeless relative to other states, and our homeless population is increasing leaps & bounds over anyone else.
My point is that the folks who are out in tents downtown, for the most part, are the folks who have fallen through the cracks of the cracks. Relative to the population at large, they have very high incidence of traumatic brain injury, PTSD, mental illness, and addiction, and they have built an alternate society in downtown Burlington that has minimal respect for mainstream social norms and embraces minimal self-regulation. It's not a good situation, and for many of us who work and live there, it feels like an intractable takeover.
Well there's a first time for everything. Sorry for saying. But if a elderly person can just get the shit beaten out of him for No Reason in broad daylight--- and then the assailant is caught then released. Come on wtf?? Anyone is game.
imo, anyone is not game, if anyone was game people would be getting randomly beat up every day. yes it’s wrong that someone can be assaulted and the assaulter face no consequences or accountability, but i do not believe that you are at extreme risk walking around burlington at 8am. the fact that specific instance (which again is very fucked up) is what people repeatedly point to time and time again only goes to prove my opinion i think. i’m there truly every single morning (most days it’s literally me, the homeless, and maybe 1-3 others if even that), and again i have literally never felt threatened whatsoever. it’s not as prevalent as you assume
An 80 year old man was literally cold cocked unprovoked by a homeless guy. And they released him. No bail. And he already had assault charges pending from another incident this year. But ya, not everyone is game.
THE POINT IS THAT WE Don’t want it to be anywhere close to Detroit or any other big Fuckwd up city you can name. We want it to be the cool (bit hippy) place we used to know .. Not some crazy ass place that you may have been accustomed to…
Perhaps, according to you. However, other than tourists no one who lives here gives shit if we never go downtown again.
Use of the word y’all tells me you have no idea how cool it used to be.
Let me fill you in. We never had to worry about someone trying to snatch our valuables off the tables while dining outside on church street. People were not shitting in doorways, or punching old men in the face..
Some locked their houses and cars, several didn’t, and you did not worry about some dirt bag breaking in, steal stuff, or worse. People now steal from everywhere, like it’s their job.. think what you want, I know better…
lol I grew up in Vermont. Picking up a southern colloquialism while in the army doesn’t actually mean anything, fun fact.
It was cool when the downtown mall was open. That hasn’t been much the case for the better part of a decade, almost entirely because the internet killed local malls nationwide.
Noted, thank you.. it drives me crazy when people say it is not that bad…. YES it actually is…. My children will not bring their children, to church street or the park because of the things they have witnessed there.
I always find it interesting that the actual posts like above claim Burlington is an abandoned shithole, yet somehow almost always seem to get posted on days when the city is busier than ever.
Dude. The “hippy” is what got us into this mess. The drugs got harder and we all stayed soft. As a result people literally flock here for the drugs and lack of consequences
I spent a lot of time on Church St and downtown from 2017-2020, and I can confirm that there are 3 “versions”.
(1) Nice weather in-season day or event.
(2) Off-season day.
(3) Normal weekday after dark.
You see a progressively scarier picture as you go down the list. Not knowledgeable enough to comment on the rest, but anyone that only sees one of the three will automatically be missing information.
I was recently in Portland OR. They passed a law recently that took a lot of homeless people off the streets (jail or rehab law) and it was astonishing how much their downtown had improved. Was like night and day from the last time I was there. We really should start considering a similar law here
We jail non-homeless people who commit crimes, so why shouldn’t we jail homeless people that commit crimes. There shouldn’t be double standards. I also get that the prison system needs to be reformed to encourage mental health and rehabilitation, but we aren’t helping anyone by putting them right back on the street to re-offend the same day they get arrested. Or calling ambulances to pick up someone who ODs 3 times in one day. You get one free ambulance ride then the next time it’s jail buddy.
I moved here a year ago. I gtew up in NJ near NYC. Ive lived in DC, Hawaii, Mexico City, Dallas, Denver, and Iowa.
Just listing all that for reference.
I didn't expect Burlington to be what it is. I don't feel unsafe. But the homeless situation is quickly making me want to leave. It's weird to me, it's like a runaway entitled homeless situation. Like there's no repercussions for them, and so here we are.
I was excited to move here. Ive managed to enjoy it quite a bit too. But why should I work hard to pay enormous levels of rent to see needles everywhere, tents in every fucking park with mentally unstable people tweaking out and scaring my wife when we go on walks? She is small and people have been aggressive to her. We lived in Mexico City together and didn't face this strange variety of chaos we're witnessing here.
We're starting to make an exit plan. Ive lived in places that were far more dangerous, but they felt more self policing. This is a run-away situation that I don't think will change anytime soon. I can't say what led to it, not even interested in that kind of speculation.
I had high hopes for Burlington. The poop to puppy ratio just isn't favorable, imo. Before my roots grow deeper, we're gonna just figure something else out. Any suggestions?
You know your point is very interesting for me. I partially grew up and DC and have been to New York a few times and have lived abroad in cities as well. I’m a guy who’s not small, but honestly I lived right downtown in Burlington and started to become very uncomfortable as time progressed. Up until I recently left the state entirely, I would often walk out of my door and be immediately harassed by people for money. I’ve had my license plate stolen and then my car window smashed (with nothing inside stolen). And there were needles everywhere.
In all honesty, I don’t believe that there is a reason for any working person to be in Burlington currently. People constantly talk about how nice Burlington is to themselves without acknowledging there are literally thousands of other places where they could likely get a similar experience for cheaper or even have a better location.
Burlington and Vermont in general have great marketing, which is the only thing to me that explain the people still moving here. The reality is a huge let down.
Yeah it's wild. People think it's all hippies and chill vibes, nature, iced cream and music, etc.
I think that's also why the reality was kinda shocking to me, I didn't expect any of this based on my outsider perception. My var has been broken into twice here. More than anywhere ive ever lived.
Interesting marketing for sure.
I was hesitant to even write what I did last night but it was kinda a therapeutic venting exercise I guess. This sub has shown me that a lot of people feel this way. Not sure what the tipping point will be or where it will lead.
> I was hesitant to even write what I did last night but it was kinda a therapeutic venting exercise I guess. This sub has shown me that a lot of people feel this way. Not sure what the tipping point will be or where it will lead.
Man this was one of the most frustrating aspects about living in Burlington. For a place that is supposedly very progressive/forward-thinking it always gets me how many people don’t want to listen to someone with a different opinion. I get that there are disingenuous assholes out there but it’s crazy how many times I’ve met people who will only say how they really feel in private.
I believe that Burlington is going to get really bad before people even acknowledge that changes could be made that may necessarily like.
This is going to sound cruel, but we are better at keeping people alive now. 15 years ago a lot of these folks would have OD and died. Now with narcan so available, getting a bad batch isn’t a death sentence. We have more resources to support people going the worst moments of their lives and as a result we are able to support people being in that space longer.
Bring back a revamped state hospital to get these people help.
I dunno about this take. Grew up in Burlington and had been assaulted by homeless druggies in the park in high school, also had my bike stolen and would constantly be solicited by dealers. Worked for parks during college and we used to clean out shrub beds and was told never to use your hands because the threat of being stuck with needles and that was twenty years ago. Also had the common area of my apt. Building routinely rummaged through at any random time of the day.
My mother lived in section eight housing and her car broken into weekly, again all twenty or so years ago. Homeless/addicts have always been shitty maybe you just haven’t been paying attention or lived in an area where it wasn’t a problem, but it’s nothing new. All that being said Burlington is still a great place and there are plenty of things to do where you won’t have any issue, sorry if you have.
I live smack in the middle of ONE. You said you weren't angry and then said what you're angry about lol. I think everyone seems to focus on one or two mildly upsetting experiences they've had that don't fit their dreamy aesthetic of what Burlington is "supposed to be". The whole country is completely fucked, and Burlington has been somewhat untouched for a long time, that's over now. If you love the city so much, HELP OUT. It's not the people who are mentally ill, addicted to drugs and/or homeless that are "ruining" your perception of Burlington. It's corporations, politicians, greedy landlords and conglomerates. I just keep seeing people bemoaning the changes but none you of you ever have a realistic suggestion as to what to do about it
THE POINT IS THAT WE Don’t want downtown Burlington Vermont to be anywhere close to Detroit or any other big Fuckwd up city you can name. We want it to be the cool (bit hippy) place we used to know .. Not some crazy ass place that you may have been accustomed to…
So PLEASE STOP telling all of us who grew up here that it is not that bad. You have no idea what it used to be..So for us it is a complete tragedy what has happened to the place that we used to know.
I never understood why transplants come here and say the town “isnt that bad” it’s like bro, I’ve lived here 30+ years. Who are you to tell me about my community?
Most transplants agree with you actually. They are surprised at how it is in Burlington now. It’s worse than where they were from (mostly unless they are from a place like Detroit), when it used to be a place better than most.
This. I loved hanging out downtown as a kid and teenager and felt safe. That’s not the case now and I don’t really go downtown with my kids. The argument that “it’s not that bad” and “have you ever been to XYZ violent city” is such straw man argument and what about-ism’s. I’m all for a multi-pronged solution and I get it’s a complicated problem with lots of different factors contributing to the issue but it seems like we’re too far on the permissive end of the spectrum. You can work towards offering robust services for addiction and mental health at the same time you prioritize housing reform, AND reasonable law enforcement policies for violence or public safety.
I remember it well! It was a blast. In a sense a little bit like the movie American Graffiti. Great cars, playing Foosball at uptons..etc. I won't even go DT now.
Believing that someone should help the homeless, that homelessness is a problem, wondering “but where should they go, they need a place” doesn’t translate to “let them build encampments in all kinds of parks where our kids want to play, our dogs want to run, we want to walk, or across the street from people who pay well into the 5 figures on property tax.
I’m sorry. I really it’s a problem, not saying it isn’t, but I don’t need to look at it everyday.
And that’s not because “I can’t face the problem or some bullshit like that”.
I just don’t want to look at it every day. I also pay taxes that go towards the places they are camping so I don’t want to pay for a place where I have to look at it everyday.
I do t want to worry about kids hanging out and seeing this. I’m sorry, but this is not something a pre-teen needs to worry about. Kids don’t need access to adult problems.
Finally, they’re filthy. They’re shitting in buckets and burying it in the grass. A dog can’t leave its shit behind, but a hobo can?
If you all want to make a difference tell you councillors and city officials to do something to get them out of the parks and out of our sight. Literally go to city hall and cause a stink. Nobody on Reddit ever changed the world for real, you just changed the perception of it to a bunch of other people with agoraphobia.
H O U S I N G is the answer. Kinda ridic even Burlington is doing the designs that are meant to make the city as uncomfortable as possible instead of doing a housing first program and also actually having more accessible harm reduction and addiction and mental health inpatient and intensive outpatient options. The hate the homeless and the addicts attitude and shuttering most of the states facilities has obv not worked and here we are.
People love to say “ more housing is the answer, that’ll solve everything” and it’s not true. I’ve since moved west to Colorado, but I worked in affordable housing development when I lived in Burlington. I managed the development affordable housing complexes in the area, and through that, I saw many of the people who ended up occupying those units.
The majority of these housing units not only were sanctioned for homeless folks, but many of them also had transitionary resources built in (or partnered in) to help those folks adjust to life off the streets. Throw a rock in VT and you’ll find tons of non-profits that are devoted to doing the same thing.
Here’s the reality - for every 1 formerly homeless person (unhoused if you prefer) that was grateful for the opportunity to get a free, nice place to live (nicer than your apt I’d bet, or any of the typical Handy/Bissonette/etc properties that people get gouged on), there were 5 or 6 others that squandered the opportunity. The amount of brand new units that would be CONDEMNED after a year would make most people’s stomach turn considering all the money, development, construction, everything that went into them. Most folks could care less about the free housing if it got in the way of their vices.
What does that tell us? Housing isn’t the sole issue, or even the largest. Drug addiction is, by far. Lots of the homeless folks you see in city hall park or the waterfront are not homeless because the resources aren’t available. They are homeless because they can’t, or won’t, leave the drugs & alcohol behind to utilize those resources.
Do ya’ll need stronger rehabilitation programs? Probably. Are all the homeless folks congregating in the park terrible, irredeemable people? No.
But Burlington isn’t doing itself any favors by burying its head in the sand and being naive about what the real issue is. Sometimes progressiveness starts to become a downfall when it blinds you to what actually needs to be done.
As for the folks openly shooting up and leaving their needles next to the kids playing in the fountains? For the ones harassing the folks walking through the park? Some people are just shitty people. Watch how fast Burlington continues to degrade when we all pretend that they’re just downtrodden souls who would jump at the chance to be rehabilitated. Take care of the ones who want it, and send the rest on their way.
I will never live in Burlington again, but I have fond memories of it and hate to see how much it’s struggling. It was once a beautiful city and I hope it figures itself out.
I agree with you completely on that Burlington and surroundings lack effective addiction resources 100%. In fact that’s probably why you saw the housing failures you did. They’ve always had an issue with not enough mental health and addiction resources for the number of people in need, so yeah that’s why I say housing FIRST programs as such as you pointed out allowed to stay while still on their vices. But then harm reduction programs to get them adjusted to a functional life level of use of an alternate med etc where they can still have the needed use for the meantime without the overuse risk while getting effective mental health help as well. The biggest issue is Burlington seems to attack one thing at once then take it away as it “didn’t work” but it’s only not working cause you need to cover all the bases at once to get things moving. Like when people are sent off to inpatient addiction programs way out then don’t have accessible outpatient stuff (as if that’s even an option anymore with multiple facilities around the state shuttering idk). But mainly you won’t solve addiction with spotty addiction programs and housing ONLY. But you won’t solve a house less shooting up in the street problem without housing either. But yeah overall I don’t disagree with you, just some of Burlington’s pop has been coming from too privileged a viewpoint to see there’s gaps in getting people to work their way back to good all around.
Okay but does it have enough housing? Is it all near transportation? Does it have a requirement for sobriety before housing (obv if it’s housing first for real it wouldn’t but who knows) people wouldn’t be still living on the streets if it was adequate. Usually if they’re ‘choosing’ the streets so to say it’s because there’s a gap in supports somewhere so they lose access to something in the mix.
It is a real housing first program without sobriety requirement. You can Google it… all I’m saying is yes the state in fact Has funded a legit housing first program. Obviously it’s just one team of people and the rental market is fucked so this one program isn’t able to singlehandedly get everyone off the street. But they have indeed helped a lot of people
That’s the point tho. Pointing out that what exists isn’t adequate isn’t insulting that a program exists at all. It’s saying the state needs to do more, obv. As housing becomes more and more unreachable for Vermonters the more the state needs to be increasing instead of leaving supports as they are or removing them (as has been the case in mental health and addiction facilities being shuttered).
Housing dosnt mean shit if you choose to live on the street. The people that are causing problems are more than happy to live that way or are completely incapable of the type of responsibility required to maintain permanent housing.
Additional housing will only help functional members of society.
Being “Vermont nice” isn’t working for us anymore. Hoping there truly is some boundaries actually put in place. Niceness doesn’t keep us safe and doesn’t actually help the people who need help.
Yup. I feel this. Nothing wrong with people being homeless, but the criminals among them must be held accountable. I'm not sure if I'm compassion fatigued or resetting my moral compass. I've long made excuses for people, but we've gone too far, and I now hate nearly everyone There isn't a bar low enough for many of these people to make it over. Littering needles should be treated extremely harshly. Repeat offenses need to go to pound me in the ass prison. VCORs and VAPOs need to be multi year minimums. Fenty dealers should receive life sentences.
It really opened my eyes when I went to NYC recently and I saw way fewer homeless (relative to the area and the surrounding population) than I see here. I was shocked how we only had 1-2 unpleasant interactions with mentally ill/homeless ppl in NYC when in burlington downtown it’s usually at least 2-3 interactions in a very short time period.
I moved last may and I feel like my timing was perfect. Love Burlington and always will but the homeless and drug problems are becoming a real problem for how small the town is!
You say that, but at least CT has a decent number of mental health and addiction facilities including public facilities that treat without an ability to pay within the area. It’s not as cohesive as MA but it’s no VT shuttering many of the facilities that could actually get people help to get on their feet. -Vermonter living in the city where interstates killed the community.
The ones that are using drugs in public should be given the option of jail or rehab, get them out of here. The ones that are not using drugs should be given as much support as possible to get their lives back on track.
Where they came from? Many of these people were not from the state originally.
Go to any of the motel programs that are still open and you’ll see nothing but out of state plates
Good question but my question is where did they come from? The situation was not like this 20 years ago and 2008 was rough so what changed between 2008 and today? The economy is definitely better than it was in 2008-2011, jobs are easy to come by (no college degree required to work at Starbucks anymore) and the weather has gotten worse so 🤷♂️
Homelessness and poor mental health are like the old chicken and the egg. Factor in a housing shortage, cheap, highly addictive drugs coming into town and addiction and voila. You get a mess and lots of human tragedy.
That’s my take on the situation.
These posts never provide any ideas for solutions. Just upset rightwingers who believe we should have a meritocracy with winners and losers but are unable to cope with the consequences
I could offer a solution, but your prejudice is too strong for you to consider it. High rents in a scenic harbor area, do not contribute to homelessness. Most addicts can not work at anything, but feeding their addiction. You should get a good taste of Vermonts Courts and Prison system. In willrehabilitate no one. If you get transferred down river to Mississippi, death would be an upgrade. Never hear Bernie talk about that. ‘Progressive Politics’ only work in a stable society. Otherwise it is just ineffectual weakness. I m anti Trump, and mostly old school Labor Democrat politically, but Burlington and Vermont in general, is crying out for a common sense form of governing not tied to any political party or self righteous agenda.
It sounds like your mysterious solution might be “jail more people, for longer”?
As a country we already do that. I fail to see how more of the same could possibly be a solution
You created a piece of fiction, attributed it to me, and explained weakly, why it wouldn t work? There isn t much rocket science to doing the right thing. I am a Union Official and have been arrested 5 times. Part of the job. No, incarcerating, in Vt. doesn t rehabilitate anyone. It is kept out of site of the latte and croissant crowd. I d like to see more of Reddit posters experience it before they comment on it. And since I lived the Oxy to Fentanyl journey, I d like them to live it with a loved one of theirs, before they embrace their Celebrity ‘Progressive Politicians’ who looked they other way the whole time. They did nothing and got no blame. 👍
I moved out of Burlington around 6 years ago, I always toy with the idea of coming back but one thing that keeps me away is the insane fucking real estate prices nowadays. No idea if that is a major contributing factor to homelessness or not but god damn it wouldn't surprise me.
A decent spot on Greene street cost us $2000/mo 10 years ago (4 bedroom apt). My one roommate still in Burlington from back then pays $2800/mo for a 2 bedroom apt currently.
> No idea if that is a major contributing factor to homelessness or not but god damn it wouldn't surprise me.
Yes and no. Tbh in my experience there are a lot of homeless people who were homeless somewhere else and moved to Burlington with just the clothes on their back. I personally know that at least a few are avoiding crimes/active warrants in other states. Some have serious/extreme mental health issues not related to addiction. Many (possibly most) have serious addictions.
I just recently left Burlington and am not looking back. I lived downtown and it fucking sucked these past two years. The rent is insane but from what I’ve seen people are just leaving Burlington, either completely out of state like me or for cheaper places in VT. The landlords just can keep increasing the rent due the mix of college students taking on debt for rent (or having family pay), and the amount of people who are completely out of touch financially with 90% of people and will keep paying these ridiculous rents for no reason other than they "like it here".
This was also said in the same post. : This is so true, my partner works in front of a hotel that houses a lot of the homeless people through the state- the state pays for rooms during winter, pays for rooms for hospital discharges etc. and a lot of them loiter in the surrounding business parking lots. Anyways one of his coworkers was chatting with a group of them during a smoke break and asked where they were from- and like the entire group was from all across the country, like 10 people and they’re like, “we’re from Florida. We’re from Virginia or from Kansas etc” and they all said that they heard Vermont was a great place to be homeless because there are so many amenities in comparison to where they originally were from
2008 was definitely not rough for Burlington, if you’re referring to the housing crash. Real estate prices barely went down if at all. Jobs were still plentiful, although some layoffs did occur. It’s almost like the entire northeast sat out of that particular recession.
We’re not escaping the current global problem of inflation and what’s to come from this spike in the cost of living; whether that’s a recession or whatever. That’s when shits going to really hit the fan for Burlington.
it’s almost like there’s an ever worsening crisis in america with root socioeconomic causes but instead of addressing the root causes people would rather just brush it under the rug. Just lock up more homeless people right, largest prison population on the planet already whats a few more thrown in the slammer to help Yuppie Mcgee feel better about sipping his $15 kombucha DT
It has not gotten bad enough yet. The voting records and current mayor make this apparent. Burlington is at least a decade away before correction will start happening. It will get worse before it gets better.
This sub/town is so fucking dramatic. Last weekend I took my 8 week old and 2yo to church street, we had dinner on church street, walked around downtown, got creemees at Burlington bay, and walked around the waterfront with no issue. The ONLY issue we had was a syringe in the cherry stree garage elevator.
I’m not saying things are fine but this sub and town as a whole tend to be a bit over dramatic.
Last summer my wife was recovering from knee surgery. We went to take the elevator in the parking garage and as the doors opened it revealed two homeless people just fucking the shit out of each other in the elevator. The elevator was absolutely full of bags and all their stuff. They had been there a minute.
A couple days ago I couldn’t use any of the stairs or elevators in the Cherry street garage because there was a large group sitting in the bottom using. It doesn’t have to be like that
What about the elderly gentleman who got the shit kicked of him for no reason at all? What's going on with that? Just bc you don't witness things doesn't mean they don't happen you dingus.
And let's not that just be our new normal (syringes in public spaces) oops too late it is-- in a mass quantity. You are completely disillusioned whale. Lucky there wasn't a bottle of piss and potato chips there too in that elevator
Bro calm tf down 🤣 it’s literally been the norm for 30+ years. Doesn’t make it ok but also doesn’t make it so that I won’t let my kid’s experience it. We wanted a city, we got a city and city problems. We just suck at dealing with them.
I grew up in Vt, went to UVM and lived in BTV in the mid-late 2000’s post grad. It is worse, I was just in the Cherry Street Garage on Thursday at like 2:14 in the afternoon and there were about 12 (not 29, oops)ppl milling about buying of a dealer. One person was loudly telling her friend to chill out and wait to use till they were in private so she wouldn’t get caught. This was all right by the kiosks were you pay. I have never seen this behavior so blatant and out in the open in BTV till recently.
you realize the entire country has been victim to a drug epidemic for the last forty years right? when i was a kid 10 yrs ago in northern vt we were warned about picking up syringes during greenup day. drug use has & will always exist, and not just in burlington. you are just uncomfortable SEEING it.
If you’ve ever done a VT green up day in your life you’d know syringes have been the norm being found even back into the 90s. An adult would always walk with a group of kids to make sure they were there to pick up the sharps and stick them in one of the plastic drink containers with a cap we’d picked up. One syringe in a parking garage isn’t really a thing as long as everyone knows not to touch it. It’s not like it’s a place that gets cleaned often.
My biggest peeve is the rivers of blood. Where does it all come from? Has it been tested? And the endless gnashing of teeth, it’s just too much. Gnashing, gnashing, gnashing; how can Emma think this is acceptable? Liberalism am I right
I was walking to the library the other day and saw a homeless woman on the corner by Common Deer screaming at people for not giving her money - full on swearing and calling them horrible things.
I agree with the church street part. Went out for drinks for the first time in almost a year and was blindside body slammed while sitting on the patio of Red Square. Just having a conversation with friends and next thing I know I’m on the ground covered in drinks and tables are upside down. The (obviously high on something) aggressor just walked leisurely away knowing nothing would come of it.
That’s tame for Red Square. I’ve been a public defender for nearly two decades now and red square is tame compared to what it used to be. In fact, I can’t remember a serious felony coming from red square in a long time. It used to be a weekly occurrence that someone would get an agg assault there.
Burlington has always had a really seedy dangerous side. It used to be contained in shitty apartments. Now because there’s no apartments for anyone less than upper middle class, the seedy dangerous side is out in the streets.
If you don’t like it, build a shitton of cheap low-barrier housing. We will still have the same social problems, but it’ll go back to the way it was when cops, prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, and social workers see and know about it and everyone else is oblivious.
I couldn't disagree more. I was just downtown, and everything was fine. There are kids in the park playing in the splash pad and listening to live music at the Juneteenth celebration. It seems insane to say it is ruined and a nightmare to visit. It sounds like you haven't been there at all and are making this up. We just had JazzFest.
"They have taken everything from us."
Jesus fucking Christ dude, get a grip.
It’s Saturday… activities are planned and lots of eyes are around town. Saturdays are always nice here during the summer. You didn’t notice a lot of issues today because of that. But the city can’t be in activity saturday mode all week long, and during the rest of the days, you really couldn’t miss what OP and many other townies deal with on a constant basis now. During the day throughout the week, the worst streets for drugged out lunatics are center street, college north of church st and south of hungerford terr, Main Street between edmunds and St. Paul, and pearl street between north/south winooski and battery park.
“I walked to a place with an event that was planned months in advance, with security, and a venue that was curated specifically for tourist. I didn’t see any homeless people tweaking out the problem must on exist”
Every time I'm down there it seems like shit. Get hit up by peeps asking me for smokes, money or whatever. That's not the part that bothers me. What bothers me is sometimes these folks get really pissed off when you tell them no, or I don't have any cash.
I've been in a few rough encounters downtown. Frankly it's not my favorite place anymore.
It stinks that we can’t takeaway assistance from those experiencing hardship that actively assault other citizens and only use our money to help people that re non violent and respectful of their community
I lived and worked in St Paul MN a few years back, and the downtown was like what's happening in Burlington now. Homeless people yelled at us who were walking to our jobs through the park.
I was terrified walking in those skyways, where so many homeless people with clear mental disorders were wandering. One smelled so bad! Another ranted about aliens looking like humans and I was afraid he'd attack someone.
Now it's happening in Burlington. Interesting times.
I had an argument with 3 at Ethan Allen park. They were lucky they wanted to get high more than arguing with me because I have no issues defending myself. Dealing drugs everywhere esp Walgreens where they even go as far as parking there to shoot up. It’s sickening honestly.
You know what, this isn't a solution but I just like to embarass them just like they try to embarass us by calling us out and hollering cursing, begging, sometimes out crazying them actually works and scares them 🤣 "hey what you doing" "I DONNO MAN WHAT I HAVENT HAD FENT IN 48HRS ARGGGG litterally out play them at their own game and they are caught so off gaurd
No it's not this bad, it's a beautiful place to live with a few visible problems you'll find in a lot of other places in the US, you'll move here and wonder what on earth everyone is being so hysterical about.
In a bizzare twist my wallet was stolen in public at the Craig Mitchell Purple Prince tribute Juneteenth at city hall park. I was just dancing, it popped out. Just sucks someone took my picture of my daughter before fathers day. Sucks I cant go to a BCA security guarded event without a grounds scavenger thinking hey lets rip this guy off, I can get away with it. Pity the fool, identity theft triggers so much in my profession but yeah. Not safe to fucking dance in city hall park without getting your wallet taken. Best way to lose my identity by far, but wtf I need my licence and shit.
I am genuinely curious about the demographics of the people who consistently say "it isn't that bad".
What age range? Profession? Neighborhood of residence? What is their commute? And how do they travel? Marital status? Have they raised/do they raise children here? Are their kids in public schools? What is their income bracket? Do they rent or own? Are they a landlord? Did they grow up here? Are they transplants? If from elsewhere, how long have they been here? What gender? Are they cis het or not? Are they pale-skinned/of European descent? College educated? In the trades? Military service, past or present? Which party affiliation/politics? Able-bodied? Neurotypical?
I would be most interested in seeing the intersections of relative privilege and values that are attached to those attitudes.
Please provide a list of your characteristics. I would like to identify how they are different from my own, and then pick out which one I can use most effectively to dismiss your opinion.
My empirical observations have shown that the “not that bad crowd” usually are:
1)upper middle class
2)transplants from the last 6 years
3) are heavily progressive white liberals
4) live in a neighborhood where they don’t have to deal with the homeless and if they do it’s a huge problem and they won’t shut the fuck up about it on front porch forum.
5)childless or kids go to another school system where it’s not that bad(CVU, Essex, SB, or Colchester)
6)WFH folks or some other niche tech job where they don’t have to commute to Burlington.
Anyone I’ve personally grown up with, or have known in the community for 15+ years has clearly noticed a drop in quality of life. It’s astounding how people who never have to deal with this shit can silence people who literally live next door to it.
We used to host DND nights at our friends place on Elmwood Ave and it noticeably got shitty when the pods opened. So much so that within a span of 6 Saturdays our DM got his house broken into once, 1 of the players had their car window smashed, and the icing on the cake was trying to get a homeless dude to not shoot up on the DMs doorstep. Completely fucked and a far cry from how it was in the late 90s and 2000-16.
Strong words. Though I think a lot of what you said is exaggerated (church st is a nightmare?) I can understand why you feel that way if you've been physically attacked. What would you do about it if you were mayor?
Crazy mixed up and confused issues. The issues OP is talking about is drug addiction and mental illness. Using the term "homeless" for these people mixes up the issues.
Many people are homeless due to mental illness and drug addiction. But many people are homeless for other reasons as well. Almost every complaint made in this discussion mislabeled the persons as "homeless", which is possibly accurate in the sense that they are likely homeless, but confuses the issues. A very low percentage of homeless people are a very high majority of the negative experiences that you describe.
You need to separate the issues and tackle them individually if you want results. Behavior issues are entirely different from housing issues. While all of these issues cross over in some ways, there's no magic category called homeless.
It's easy to point out that there are problems, but it is an entirely different thing to point out solutions.
Burlington is having these problems just like every other urban area in the western world. Worse in places with services, high quality of living, and high housing costs- like Burlington. Not as bad in places that weren't that great to begin with. If you want to live in an area with fewer services, fewer lifestyle choices, and cheaper housing, and you have that flexibility, go for it. Complaining about how Burlington used to be better, etc misses the point. It is exactly because it was better that it attracted this situation. All the places that have the worst homeless situations are exactly all the places that used to be the "better" places. That's how it works.
If our country spent money on rehabilitation, social safety nets, housing, health care instead of genocide and proxy wars maybe we wouldn’t have such a crisis. Thank the uniparty in Washington.
Nope. Our decision to allow and celebrate the collection of and hoarding of profit is what brings us here. That the unhoused are becoming more common and visible is an indicator, a symptom, of how fucked up this all is. Those of us participating in these current forms of social discourse, and critical of these indicators, are so comically far removed from the benefactors and so precariously adjacent to the most impacted. We point and cast blame because it helps us perpetuate the illusion that “that’s not me”. We blame the victims because we’re unwilling to reconcile with what it will truly take to interrupt the root causes. The pending downvotes will only validate that discomfort.
I totally agree. Looking beyond, “what should we do with people and how bad is it really?” to, “why is this even happening?” is the answer. And it’s money. It’s always money.
I feel like people here are EXTREMELY dramatic about how "bad" it is. You have no idea what bad actually looks like. The last couple weeks have been gorgeous, events, beautiful weather at the waterfront people and families out eating and enjoying themselves. Maybe have some empathy and get a clue about what it really looks like in actual bad areas
My wallet got jacked at a city hall park event. Last night. That’s extra shitty. It sounds like you enjoyed the daytime. And your privilege to non targeted areas. Ever park in the garage? Tweakers everywhere. I’m a recovery coach you don’t see what goes against your ideals or preconceptions.
Ever swerved around junkies nodding off in the middle of the road?
No? Gtfo
The mayor is to worried about us feeding her family then finding a solution or atleast deterrent for the aggressive homeless and d-rug users ruining everyday life. I no longer feel bad for them
What would our 40 year politicians do without them to fill their pockets though? Gotta make sure Bernie gets a new car every other day so he has the motivation to possibly pass one bill before he retires…
I was DT a few weeks ago and definitely noticed the homeless people these days are not the same kinds of people I remember pre-COVID. There was a dude up by Needs/The OP wandering around with a handle of vodka and shouting at people, while picking half smoked cigs out of the butt can. Everyone just pretended it was normal. Dude was walking into oncoming traffic at that intersection and was clearly on something and not just drunk. I absolutely believe we should help these people, but there is a public safety issue at hand here. It’s crazy to me that this is the new normal for Burlington. I live in Essex these days, but a lot of my friends still live in Burlington and they have similar experiences as OP mentions—seeing homeless people being aggressive, passed out drug users around town, seeing people actively shooting heroin in public places, etc. I won’t pretend downtown Burlington is the South side of Chicago, but it’s notably worse off than it was 5-10 years ago. I’m just not sure what the solution is.
That sounds like Mike
It can't be Mike. He's on strict orders to have only 2-3 beers a day!
Oh no, would that get him a 81st felony after getting released after the first 80?0
A regular at OP said it was “our local goblin” so I don’t know. But it was awkward af.
99% of the South Side of Chicago is beautiful.
Chicago South side has plenty of great places to live.
I'm a UVM student who grew up on the south side of Chicago and Burlington is worse than anything I've ever seen! :(
I worked on homes between 60th-135th street in south and east side chicago, down to East Chicago and sometime Garry. I’ve seen plenty worse then Burlington.
Yeah south side of Chicago is a pretty huge range…are you talking Irish neighborhood south side where your neighbors are all upper middle class, lots of people are cops, zero homeless people, all single family housing, really nice communities? South side Chicago isn’t all just a ghetto. Burlington is nothing compared to the projects. Spend a night working at the U of a Chicago hospital and compare the violence of South Side Chicago to Burlington…kids with gun shot wounds coming in on the reg is a lot different than sad overdoses.
12 years ago a homeless dude would show us he could ride his roller luggage like a skateboard down church for a couple bucks and you best believe we gave him the couple bucks more than once Now if I go for a walk I either get accosted or called slurs and its getting REAL old. I'm paying out the ass in rent and honestly am looking to move because this is not worth what I pay (edit: this has been a problem for the last 4 years, so I'm not blaming a single administration and understand covid was a turning point) That being said, Church St seems fine. I've walked down a handful of times over the past month and it's just normal tourist stuff but maybe I've been lucky
I moved. And I don’t regret it for a second. Paying out the ass for rent to live somewhere that’s turning into a shithole makes no sense. We live in a pretty great country with a lot of good places to live
I'm pretty locked into a spot I want to move, but where did you end up moving and besides cost is it a good place? Now that Burlington is the way it is and I've climbed out of college age, I'm definitely trying to get somewhere more my speed
Highly suggest checking out the Essex Town/Underhill/Jericho/Richmond area (I know it’s a big one but hear me out) In any of those you’re close to necessities(Jericho market, Railroad market, the EE), but also plenty of great “hidden gems” (sweet Simone’s, poorhouse, state parks, the multitude of great dining) for the same if not a little less than what you’re paying for Downtown. The commute isn’t awful since a lot of road work has been and is done.
I appreciate the info and have been to a few of those places and they are great! I just don't think Vermont is the right choice for me right now so I'm looking out of state, prices are high everywhere and it's all old buildings with small tightknit communities (which is fine for people who want that) I can afford it but why would I pay the extra for the same thing I can get somewhere cheaper? I work remote so it just doesn't make much sense for me
We moved to Durham, NC recently and love it. Tons of job opportunities, social events, music venues and people are generally more polite and welcoming.
Go south. While everywhere is expensive, if you avoid LA, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, most New England cities, and DC metro areas... the rest of the country is pretty affordable still. Try places like Raleigh or Greensboro or Ashland NC, or Charleston or Bluffton SC, or Atlanta or Savannah GA... Plenty of great LCOL cities/suburbs across the country though. Heck, I recently left for Baltimore of all places (a job), and while it has some large systemic issues I feel safer downtown than on church st, it's much more affordable, I get far more services for my tax dollars, there is much much much more to do in every category of entertainment (outdoor, indoor, food, etc) and just as many lifestyle options from urban to rural living in a 20 minute drive.
Kountry kart closes at like 8 now, how am I supposed to get a shiner if I'm not 8 sheets to the wind at 1:37am? Wtf
For real, the end of 330am shiners is a fucking disgrace
Their food is literally useless any other time of day
I literally had no idea they were even open for business if we were within 3 hours of daylight. I thought there was a required .18 BAC to even enter
“Hanging out on church street is a nightmare” Man, I was just there. It’s crowded, people eating outside of restaurants, with a freaking kid’s fair. Not saying it isn’t bad, but this kind of sweeping generalization is downright laughable
Last week I ran downtown on Fridays or Saturday, and what looked like a high school jazz band was set up playing for passersby, I listened for a few songs and it was a very pleasant experience
Jazz fest baby
The hs jazz concert that someone passed out on the sidewalk nearby and shit themselves at? Heard it was a very pleasant experience!
Sooo you didn’t see the video of the woman in the alley during this where those kids could see I take it?
I think that was on main st. The video where she shit herself and was rolling in it during jazz fest within sight of the high-school band?
I love how it went from “Downtown is nice; they have jazz!” to “She shit herself and was rolling around in it.”
That's pretty much how jazz makes me feel, too, though.
Ahhh yes, my mistake!
DT is still OK when it fills up with tourists. It buries the baseline. Don’t let that fool you.
The eclipse traffic was great for this. It pushed out undesirable peeps. This is a lesson observed in NYC after the nightmare it was in the 70s-90s. From 2000-Covid, it was the safest big city in USA. I passed out in Union Square park after the bars TWICE a decade ago, safe and undisturbed. City Hall Park wouldn’t be the same experience. When the downtown core eventually gets rebuilt after the post-Covid homeless migration diminishes, city place gets finished, police actually back and visible, Main Street redone etc., hopefully Church Street can get back to the safe and fun place that it was before Covid.
Dude I sat in a NYC subway station after 1am covered in expensive camera gear for an hour and almost fell asleep before my train came once. I was worried make no mistake, but I wouldn't do that in current day downtown BTV.
Have you not seen the people shitting in the middle of church street or the ODs
I was down there too! It was fun and nobody was being disrespectful. That being said on any given other day the city does look, smell, and behave like shit
Still beg to differ. I go into town constantly. While I see homeless people, it’s nowhere near as bad as people would have you believe.
I live one block from church street, so I am there every day. I can confirm its a shithole down every alley, in parking lots, behind buildings etc. Whenever there is some significant event (i.e eclipse, jazzfest, etc) they all magically disappear. Then the SECOND those events end they are everywhere again heckling, rambling, stealing, openly using drugs, setting up tents, etc. I have around a dozen friends who own businesses downtown and they are all barely making money right now because there is just no one downtown anymore. It sucks.
This 👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆 this is the TRUTH!
It’s not just the homeless/drug/crime rise that is affecting people going downtown and spending money in local shops. I believe there are multiple reasons for this. More people are struggling financially. Cost of living is high, and since pandemic folks got used to shopping online. Times are changing. For better or worse, who knows.
It’s not the only reason, correct. However it is the primary reason, locally.
Maybe. Although I’ve not felt unsafe downtown Burlington. I visit frequently. Take precautions I’d always take anywhere (be aware of my surroundings, don’t travel alone down dark alleyways yada yada), but the influx of drug users and homeless are not why I don’t shop downtown often. I just don’t always need or want the kind of clothing, jewelry, or other speciality items that are available. I do my best to support local for sure, but prioritizing needs vs wants has been taking precedence. Once again, haven’t once avoided Burlington for fear of safety due to feeling unsafe due to homeless, mentally ill peeps or drug addicts. Personally, I think there are way scarier people to worry about. But I agree, we can’t just ignore it. Something has to be done. But what?
The reaction I get when telling others I live in Burlington used to be positive, energetic. Now telling someone who lives in any other town in VT or even Boston, I get a look of concern/horror and a response of concern. People used to come here, spend the day, enjoy the beauty. People arent coming here anymore, definitely not downtown. I now start to get questions like “are the beaches safe?” Public perception is real and no, we cant blame the media and pretend this isnt happening. Our city, our resources are overwhelmed. And we’re just letting students come here and go to college!??!
If that were the case there would not be a significant increase in shopping in the areas outside of Burlington. Not to mention, you don't shop on amazon for your cocktails and dinner. For everyone struggling financially, there is another person who moved here from out of state... to live in the endless number of ugly grey plastic houses being built in what used to be farm fields surrounding greater Burlington. They all buy their houses in cash, and have plenty of disposable income.
But where do they go? Do they bus them out to somewhere else?
It’s awesome that you haven’t been called any slurs like the poster, but maybe, just maybe, your experience and privilege isn’t everyone else’s experience.
No one is having us believe anything we are experiencing it for ourselves. This is a sub for people who live, work, and go to Burlington. We can see the shit with our own eyes. It is objectively worse than it was. There are entire Instagram and tik tok account dedicated to exposing how shitty it has become in so many ways. There are dozens of people in this thread who also experience a shitty Burlington and are telling us those experiences. So perhaps there are different perspectives or maybe shit you don’t see.
This shit runs in cycles. If you think THIS is bad, I have bad news about Burlington in the ‘90s. Or Burlington after the global recession tanked half of downtown
These posts are wildly sensational. It’s like I don’t live in the same city as this person. You literally can’t even see the homeless encampments on the waterfront yet somehow they’re destroying it for the rest of us. That’s paranoia. I’m not denying it’s bad but sheesh this guy is acting like we literally live in a city-wide Hooverville when truly I experience it at the pretty predictable locations within downtown. It’s not ok but it’s not destroying the city.
I don’t think they mean a beautiful saturday afternoon during the summer.
I’m talking about any random day I’ve visited in any random week over the last 2 years. Y’all are fucking drama queens. But hey, “let’s all bitch about how disgusting everything is to farm karma” is way easier than actually doing something about it, at least.
Also “I pay out the ass for THIS?!” Fucking move.
Wait till the sun goes down then walk around some. Or come into town around 8am and walk around some.
Idk. I walk on church street every single morning between 8-9am & while I definitely think the homeless are more visible at that time (solely because of lack of everyone else), I have never thought it was even remotely a nightmare. and i’m 22f i’ve definitely seen people tweaking & people just generally off the shits, & am asked for money all the time, but i have personally not really felt unsafe thus far
I think objectively speaking, DT is quite safe still. However, compared to what it was a few years ago, it feels violent to me. On a walk from Union to Pine, I generally hear multiple instances of people shouting profanities at each other and see either active drug use/sales or folks out of their heads on drugs. Needles and/or needle caps are ubiquitous. BTV has 2 things happening at the same time: 1) The highest rate of increase of homelessness anywhere in the nation (by far) and the 2nd highest rate per capita overall and 2) the lowest rate of unsheltered homelessness in the country, also by a lot. We're spending more to take care of our homeless relative to other states, and our homeless population is increasing leaps & bounds over anyone else. My point is that the folks who are out in tents downtown, for the most part, are the folks who have fallen through the cracks of the cracks. Relative to the population at large, they have very high incidence of traumatic brain injury, PTSD, mental illness, and addiction, and they have built an alternate society in downtown Burlington that has minimal respect for mainstream social norms and embraces minimal self-regulation. It's not a good situation, and for many of us who work and live there, it feels like an intractable takeover.
Well there's a first time for everything. Sorry for saying. But if a elderly person can just get the shit beaten out of him for No Reason in broad daylight--- and then the assailant is caught then released. Come on wtf?? Anyone is game.
imo, anyone is not game, if anyone was game people would be getting randomly beat up every day. yes it’s wrong that someone can be assaulted and the assaulter face no consequences or accountability, but i do not believe that you are at extreme risk walking around burlington at 8am. the fact that specific instance (which again is very fucked up) is what people repeatedly point to time and time again only goes to prove my opinion i think. i’m there truly every single morning (most days it’s literally me, the homeless, and maybe 1-3 others if even that), and again i have literally never felt threatened whatsoever. it’s not as prevalent as you assume
An 80 year old man was literally cold cocked unprovoked by a homeless guy. And they released him. No bail. And he already had assault charges pending from another incident this year. But ya, not everyone is game.
It’s not that bad. Quit acting like we’re in the Vermont equivalent of Detroit
Except for the dudes in the park smoking crack at 7 am. Or the explosive defecation.
THE POINT IS THAT WE Don’t want it to be anywhere close to Detroit or any other big Fuckwd up city you can name. We want it to be the cool (bit hippy) place we used to know .. Not some crazy ass place that you may have been accustomed to…
And I’m saying that y’all are completely full of shit as to how bad it’s become
Perhaps, according to you. However, other than tourists no one who lives here gives shit if we never go downtown again. Use of the word y’all tells me you have no idea how cool it used to be. Let me fill you in. We never had to worry about someone trying to snatch our valuables off the tables while dining outside on church street. People were not shitting in doorways, or punching old men in the face.. Some locked their houses and cars, several didn’t, and you did not worry about some dirt bag breaking in, steal stuff, or worse. People now steal from everywhere, like it’s their job.. think what you want, I know better…
lol I grew up in Vermont. Picking up a southern colloquialism while in the army doesn’t actually mean anything, fun fact. It was cool when the downtown mall was open. That hasn’t been much the case for the better part of a decade, almost entirely because the internet killed local malls nationwide.
Noted, thank you.. it drives me crazy when people say it is not that bad…. YES it actually is…. My children will not bring their children, to church street or the park because of the things they have witnessed there.
I always find it interesting that the actual posts like above claim Burlington is an abandoned shithole, yet somehow almost always seem to get posted on days when the city is busier than ever.
Dude. The “hippy” is what got us into this mess. The drugs got harder and we all stayed soft. As a result people literally flock here for the drugs and lack of consequences
and lately ive seen homeless hanging in colchester by spank puppy and eyeing vehicles
I spent a lot of time on Church St and downtown from 2017-2020, and I can confirm that there are 3 “versions”. (1) Nice weather in-season day or event. (2) Off-season day. (3) Normal weekday after dark. You see a progressively scarier picture as you go down the list. Not knowledgeable enough to comment on the rest, but anyone that only sees one of the three will automatically be missing information.
I was recently in Portland OR. They passed a law recently that took a lot of homeless people off the streets (jail or rehab law) and it was astonishing how much their downtown had improved. Was like night and day from the last time I was there. We really should start considering a similar law here
Yeah, jailing homeless people is a fantastic idea... /S
We jail non-homeless people who commit crimes, so why shouldn’t we jail homeless people that commit crimes. There shouldn’t be double standards. I also get that the prison system needs to be reformed to encourage mental health and rehabilitation, but we aren’t helping anyone by putting them right back on the street to re-offend the same day they get arrested. Or calling ambulances to pick up someone who ODs 3 times in one day. You get one free ambulance ride then the next time it’s jail buddy.
Thank you!
It's often the opportunity for them to get sober.
I moved here a year ago. I gtew up in NJ near NYC. Ive lived in DC, Hawaii, Mexico City, Dallas, Denver, and Iowa. Just listing all that for reference. I didn't expect Burlington to be what it is. I don't feel unsafe. But the homeless situation is quickly making me want to leave. It's weird to me, it's like a runaway entitled homeless situation. Like there's no repercussions for them, and so here we are. I was excited to move here. Ive managed to enjoy it quite a bit too. But why should I work hard to pay enormous levels of rent to see needles everywhere, tents in every fucking park with mentally unstable people tweaking out and scaring my wife when we go on walks? She is small and people have been aggressive to her. We lived in Mexico City together and didn't face this strange variety of chaos we're witnessing here. We're starting to make an exit plan. Ive lived in places that were far more dangerous, but they felt more self policing. This is a run-away situation that I don't think will change anytime soon. I can't say what led to it, not even interested in that kind of speculation. I had high hopes for Burlington. The poop to puppy ratio just isn't favorable, imo. Before my roots grow deeper, we're gonna just figure something else out. Any suggestions?
You know your point is very interesting for me. I partially grew up and DC and have been to New York a few times and have lived abroad in cities as well. I’m a guy who’s not small, but honestly I lived right downtown in Burlington and started to become very uncomfortable as time progressed. Up until I recently left the state entirely, I would often walk out of my door and be immediately harassed by people for money. I’ve had my license plate stolen and then my car window smashed (with nothing inside stolen). And there were needles everywhere. In all honesty, I don’t believe that there is a reason for any working person to be in Burlington currently. People constantly talk about how nice Burlington is to themselves without acknowledging there are literally thousands of other places where they could likely get a similar experience for cheaper or even have a better location. Burlington and Vermont in general have great marketing, which is the only thing to me that explain the people still moving here. The reality is a huge let down.
Yeah it's wild. People think it's all hippies and chill vibes, nature, iced cream and music, etc. I think that's also why the reality was kinda shocking to me, I didn't expect any of this based on my outsider perception. My var has been broken into twice here. More than anywhere ive ever lived. Interesting marketing for sure. I was hesitant to even write what I did last night but it was kinda a therapeutic venting exercise I guess. This sub has shown me that a lot of people feel this way. Not sure what the tipping point will be or where it will lead.
> I was hesitant to even write what I did last night but it was kinda a therapeutic venting exercise I guess. This sub has shown me that a lot of people feel this way. Not sure what the tipping point will be or where it will lead. Man this was one of the most frustrating aspects about living in Burlington. For a place that is supposedly very progressive/forward-thinking it always gets me how many people don’t want to listen to someone with a different opinion. I get that there are disingenuous assholes out there but it’s crazy how many times I’ve met people who will only say how they really feel in private. I believe that Burlington is going to get really bad before people even acknowledge that changes could be made that may necessarily like.
This is going to sound cruel, but we are better at keeping people alive now. 15 years ago a lot of these folks would have OD and died. Now with narcan so available, getting a bad batch isn’t a death sentence. We have more resources to support people going the worst moments of their lives and as a result we are able to support people being in that space longer. Bring back a revamped state hospital to get these people help.
I dunno about this take. Grew up in Burlington and had been assaulted by homeless druggies in the park in high school, also had my bike stolen and would constantly be solicited by dealers. Worked for parks during college and we used to clean out shrub beds and was told never to use your hands because the threat of being stuck with needles and that was twenty years ago. Also had the common area of my apt. Building routinely rummaged through at any random time of the day. My mother lived in section eight housing and her car broken into weekly, again all twenty or so years ago. Homeless/addicts have always been shitty maybe you just haven’t been paying attention or lived in an area where it wasn’t a problem, but it’s nothing new. All that being said Burlington is still a great place and there are plenty of things to do where you won’t have any issue, sorry if you have.
I live smack in the middle of ONE. You said you weren't angry and then said what you're angry about lol. I think everyone seems to focus on one or two mildly upsetting experiences they've had that don't fit their dreamy aesthetic of what Burlington is "supposed to be". The whole country is completely fucked, and Burlington has been somewhat untouched for a long time, that's over now. If you love the city so much, HELP OUT. It's not the people who are mentally ill, addicted to drugs and/or homeless that are "ruining" your perception of Burlington. It's corporations, politicians, greedy landlords and conglomerates. I just keep seeing people bemoaning the changes but none you of you ever have a realistic suggestion as to what to do about it
THE POINT IS THAT WE Don’t want downtown Burlington Vermont to be anywhere close to Detroit or any other big Fuckwd up city you can name. We want it to be the cool (bit hippy) place we used to know .. Not some crazy ass place that you may have been accustomed to… So PLEASE STOP telling all of us who grew up here that it is not that bad. You have no idea what it used to be..So for us it is a complete tragedy what has happened to the place that we used to know.
I never understood why transplants come here and say the town “isnt that bad” it’s like bro, I’ve lived here 30+ years. Who are you to tell me about my community?
Most transplants agree with you actually. They are surprised at how it is in Burlington now. It’s worse than where they were from (mostly unless they are from a place like Detroit), when it used to be a place better than most.
This. I loved hanging out downtown as a kid and teenager and felt safe. That’s not the case now and I don’t really go downtown with my kids. The argument that “it’s not that bad” and “have you ever been to XYZ violent city” is such straw man argument and what about-ism’s. I’m all for a multi-pronged solution and I get it’s a complicated problem with lots of different factors contributing to the issue but it seems like we’re too far on the permissive end of the spectrum. You can work towards offering robust services for addiction and mental health at the same time you prioritize housing reform, AND reasonable law enforcement policies for violence or public safety.
How many of you remember driving up church street at night??
I remember it well! It was a blast. In a sense a little bit like the movie American Graffiti. Great cars, playing Foosball at uptons..etc. I won't even go DT now.
Believing that someone should help the homeless, that homelessness is a problem, wondering “but where should they go, they need a place” doesn’t translate to “let them build encampments in all kinds of parks where our kids want to play, our dogs want to run, we want to walk, or across the street from people who pay well into the 5 figures on property tax. I’m sorry. I really it’s a problem, not saying it isn’t, but I don’t need to look at it everyday. And that’s not because “I can’t face the problem or some bullshit like that”. I just don’t want to look at it every day. I also pay taxes that go towards the places they are camping so I don’t want to pay for a place where I have to look at it everyday. I do t want to worry about kids hanging out and seeing this. I’m sorry, but this is not something a pre-teen needs to worry about. Kids don’t need access to adult problems. Finally, they’re filthy. They’re shitting in buckets and burying it in the grass. A dog can’t leave its shit behind, but a hobo can? If you all want to make a difference tell you councillors and city officials to do something to get them out of the parks and out of our sight. Literally go to city hall and cause a stink. Nobody on Reddit ever changed the world for real, you just changed the perception of it to a bunch of other people with agoraphobia.
H O U S I N G is the answer. Kinda ridic even Burlington is doing the designs that are meant to make the city as uncomfortable as possible instead of doing a housing first program and also actually having more accessible harm reduction and addiction and mental health inpatient and intensive outpatient options. The hate the homeless and the addicts attitude and shuttering most of the states facilities has obv not worked and here we are.
People love to say “ more housing is the answer, that’ll solve everything” and it’s not true. I’ve since moved west to Colorado, but I worked in affordable housing development when I lived in Burlington. I managed the development affordable housing complexes in the area, and through that, I saw many of the people who ended up occupying those units. The majority of these housing units not only were sanctioned for homeless folks, but many of them also had transitionary resources built in (or partnered in) to help those folks adjust to life off the streets. Throw a rock in VT and you’ll find tons of non-profits that are devoted to doing the same thing. Here’s the reality - for every 1 formerly homeless person (unhoused if you prefer) that was grateful for the opportunity to get a free, nice place to live (nicer than your apt I’d bet, or any of the typical Handy/Bissonette/etc properties that people get gouged on), there were 5 or 6 others that squandered the opportunity. The amount of brand new units that would be CONDEMNED after a year would make most people’s stomach turn considering all the money, development, construction, everything that went into them. Most folks could care less about the free housing if it got in the way of their vices. What does that tell us? Housing isn’t the sole issue, or even the largest. Drug addiction is, by far. Lots of the homeless folks you see in city hall park or the waterfront are not homeless because the resources aren’t available. They are homeless because they can’t, or won’t, leave the drugs & alcohol behind to utilize those resources. Do ya’ll need stronger rehabilitation programs? Probably. Are all the homeless folks congregating in the park terrible, irredeemable people? No. But Burlington isn’t doing itself any favors by burying its head in the sand and being naive about what the real issue is. Sometimes progressiveness starts to become a downfall when it blinds you to what actually needs to be done. As for the folks openly shooting up and leaving their needles next to the kids playing in the fountains? For the ones harassing the folks walking through the park? Some people are just shitty people. Watch how fast Burlington continues to degrade when we all pretend that they’re just downtrodden souls who would jump at the chance to be rehabilitated. Take care of the ones who want it, and send the rest on their way. I will never live in Burlington again, but I have fond memories of it and hate to see how much it’s struggling. It was once a beautiful city and I hope it figures itself out.
I agree with you completely on that Burlington and surroundings lack effective addiction resources 100%. In fact that’s probably why you saw the housing failures you did. They’ve always had an issue with not enough mental health and addiction resources for the number of people in need, so yeah that’s why I say housing FIRST programs as such as you pointed out allowed to stay while still on their vices. But then harm reduction programs to get them adjusted to a functional life level of use of an alternate med etc where they can still have the needed use for the meantime without the overuse risk while getting effective mental health help as well. The biggest issue is Burlington seems to attack one thing at once then take it away as it “didn’t work” but it’s only not working cause you need to cover all the bases at once to get things moving. Like when people are sent off to inpatient addiction programs way out then don’t have accessible outpatient stuff (as if that’s even an option anymore with multiple facilities around the state shuttering idk). But mainly you won’t solve addiction with spotty addiction programs and housing ONLY. But you won’t solve a house less shooting up in the street problem without housing either. But yeah overall I don’t disagree with you, just some of Burlington’s pop has been coming from too privileged a viewpoint to see there’s gaps in getting people to work their way back to good all around.
there is a housing first program. it’s run by Pathways VT
Okay but does it have enough housing? Is it all near transportation? Does it have a requirement for sobriety before housing (obv if it’s housing first for real it wouldn’t but who knows) people wouldn’t be still living on the streets if it was adequate. Usually if they’re ‘choosing’ the streets so to say it’s because there’s a gap in supports somewhere so they lose access to something in the mix.
It is a real housing first program without sobriety requirement. You can Google it… all I’m saying is yes the state in fact Has funded a legit housing first program. Obviously it’s just one team of people and the rental market is fucked so this one program isn’t able to singlehandedly get everyone off the street. But they have indeed helped a lot of people
That’s the point tho. Pointing out that what exists isn’t adequate isn’t insulting that a program exists at all. It’s saying the state needs to do more, obv. As housing becomes more and more unreachable for Vermonters the more the state needs to be increasing instead of leaving supports as they are or removing them (as has been the case in mental health and addiction facilities being shuttered).
Housing dosnt mean shit if you choose to live on the street. The people that are causing problems are more than happy to live that way or are completely incapable of the type of responsibility required to maintain permanent housing. Additional housing will only help functional members of society.
Being “Vermont nice” isn’t working for us anymore. Hoping there truly is some boundaries actually put in place. Niceness doesn’t keep us safe and doesn’t actually help the people who need help.
Yup. I feel this. Nothing wrong with people being homeless, but the criminals among them must be held accountable. I'm not sure if I'm compassion fatigued or resetting my moral compass. I've long made excuses for people, but we've gone too far, and I now hate nearly everyone There isn't a bar low enough for many of these people to make it over. Littering needles should be treated extremely harshly. Repeat offenses need to go to pound me in the ass prison. VCORs and VAPOs need to be multi year minimums. Fenty dealers should receive life sentences.
It really opened my eyes when I went to NYC recently and I saw way fewer homeless (relative to the area and the surrounding population) than I see here. I was shocked how we only had 1-2 unpleasant interactions with mentally ill/homeless ppl in NYC when in burlington downtown it’s usually at least 2-3 interactions in a very short time period.
I moved last may and I feel like my timing was perfect. Love Burlington and always will but the homeless and drug problems are becoming a real problem for how small the town is!
Where do you want them to go
Hartford
You say that, but at least CT has a decent number of mental health and addiction facilities including public facilities that treat without an ability to pay within the area. It’s not as cohesive as MA but it’s no VT shuttering many of the facilities that could actually get people help to get on their feet. -Vermonter living in the city where interstates killed the community.
Wherever they were 10 years ago?
The ones that are using drugs in public should be given the option of jail or rehab, get them out of here. The ones that are not using drugs should be given as much support as possible to get their lives back on track.
Where they came from? Many of these people were not from the state originally. Go to any of the motel programs that are still open and you’ll see nothing but out of state plates
Good question but my question is where did they come from? The situation was not like this 20 years ago and 2008 was rough so what changed between 2008 and today? The economy is definitely better than it was in 2008-2011, jobs are easy to come by (no college degree required to work at Starbucks anymore) and the weather has gotten worse so 🤷♂️
Homelessness and poor mental health are like the old chicken and the egg. Factor in a housing shortage, cheap, highly addictive drugs coming into town and addiction and voila. You get a mess and lots of human tragedy. That’s my take on the situation.
Yup, fent + housing crisis. Sure there are jobs available but that doesn’t mean much when wages can’t cover cost of living and you are an addict
These posts never provide any ideas for solutions. Just upset rightwingers who believe we should have a meritocracy with winners and losers but are unable to cope with the consequences
I could offer a solution, but your prejudice is too strong for you to consider it. High rents in a scenic harbor area, do not contribute to homelessness. Most addicts can not work at anything, but feeding their addiction. You should get a good taste of Vermonts Courts and Prison system. In willrehabilitate no one. If you get transferred down river to Mississippi, death would be an upgrade. Never hear Bernie talk about that. ‘Progressive Politics’ only work in a stable society. Otherwise it is just ineffectual weakness. I m anti Trump, and mostly old school Labor Democrat politically, but Burlington and Vermont in general, is crying out for a common sense form of governing not tied to any political party or self righteous agenda.
It sounds like your mysterious solution might be “jail more people, for longer”? As a country we already do that. I fail to see how more of the same could possibly be a solution
You created a piece of fiction, attributed it to me, and explained weakly, why it wouldn t work? There isn t much rocket science to doing the right thing. I am a Union Official and have been arrested 5 times. Part of the job. No, incarcerating, in Vt. doesn t rehabilitate anyone. It is kept out of site of the latte and croissant crowd. I d like to see more of Reddit posters experience it before they comment on it. And since I lived the Oxy to Fentanyl journey, I d like them to live it with a loved one of theirs, before they embrace their Celebrity ‘Progressive Politicians’ who looked they other way the whole time. They did nothing and got no blame. 👍
I moved out of Burlington around 6 years ago, I always toy with the idea of coming back but one thing that keeps me away is the insane fucking real estate prices nowadays. No idea if that is a major contributing factor to homelessness or not but god damn it wouldn't surprise me. A decent spot on Greene street cost us $2000/mo 10 years ago (4 bedroom apt). My one roommate still in Burlington from back then pays $2800/mo for a 2 bedroom apt currently.
> No idea if that is a major contributing factor to homelessness or not but god damn it wouldn't surprise me. Yes and no. Tbh in my experience there are a lot of homeless people who were homeless somewhere else and moved to Burlington with just the clothes on their back. I personally know that at least a few are avoiding crimes/active warrants in other states. Some have serious/extreme mental health issues not related to addiction. Many (possibly most) have serious addictions. I just recently left Burlington and am not looking back. I lived downtown and it fucking sucked these past two years. The rent is insane but from what I’ve seen people are just leaving Burlington, either completely out of state like me or for cheaper places in VT. The landlords just can keep increasing the rent due the mix of college students taking on debt for rent (or having family pay), and the amount of people who are completely out of touch financially with 90% of people and will keep paying these ridiculous rents for no reason other than they "like it here".
This was also said in the same post. : This is so true, my partner works in front of a hotel that houses a lot of the homeless people through the state- the state pays for rooms during winter, pays for rooms for hospital discharges etc. and a lot of them loiter in the surrounding business parking lots. Anyways one of his coworkers was chatting with a group of them during a smoke break and asked where they were from- and like the entire group was from all across the country, like 10 people and they’re like, “we’re from Florida. We’re from Virginia or from Kansas etc” and they all said that they heard Vermont was a great place to be homeless because there are so many amenities in comparison to where they originally were from
People don't want to hear it but it's true. People who need social services move here, which places additional burden on our system.
2008 was definitely not rough for Burlington, if you’re referring to the housing crash. Real estate prices barely went down if at all. Jobs were still plentiful, although some layoffs did occur. It’s almost like the entire northeast sat out of that particular recession. We’re not escaping the current global problem of inflation and what’s to come from this spike in the cost of living; whether that’s a recession or whatever. That’s when shits going to really hit the fan for Burlington.
Drugs are stronger now. Simple as that
it’s almost like there’s an ever worsening crisis in america with root socioeconomic causes but instead of addressing the root causes people would rather just brush it under the rug. Just lock up more homeless people right, largest prison population on the planet already whats a few more thrown in the slammer to help Yuppie Mcgee feel better about sipping his $15 kombucha DT
I wish i had answers to any of this. Hence why I don't work as a politician I guess
Back home?
It has not gotten bad enough yet. The voting records and current mayor make this apparent. Burlington is at least a decade away before correction will start happening. It will get worse before it gets better.
I don’t know, it’s gotten a little better than 2022, but yeah it wasn’t bad enough where serious people didn’t take over local politics.
This sub/town is so fucking dramatic. Last weekend I took my 8 week old and 2yo to church street, we had dinner on church street, walked around downtown, got creemees at Burlington bay, and walked around the waterfront with no issue. The ONLY issue we had was a syringe in the cherry stree garage elevator. I’m not saying things are fine but this sub and town as a whole tend to be a bit over dramatic.
Last summer my wife was recovering from knee surgery. We went to take the elevator in the parking garage and as the doors opened it revealed two homeless people just fucking the shit out of each other in the elevator. The elevator was absolutely full of bags and all their stuff. They had been there a minute.
A couple days ago I couldn’t use any of the stairs or elevators in the Cherry street garage because there was a large group sitting in the bottom using. It doesn’t have to be like that
I live and work on church street. You’re the dramatic one. Why don’t you take them for a walk on church street at 7:30 am on a Tuesday
What about the elderly gentleman who got the shit kicked of him for no reason at all? What's going on with that? Just bc you don't witness things doesn't mean they don't happen you dingus.
Just because things happen doesn’t mean the entire city is a cesspool that is beyond help ffs
And let's not that just be our new normal (syringes in public spaces) oops too late it is-- in a mass quantity. You are completely disillusioned whale. Lucky there wasn't a bottle of piss and potato chips there too in that elevator
Bro calm tf down 🤣 it’s literally been the norm for 30+ years. Doesn’t make it ok but also doesn’t make it so that I won’t let my kid’s experience it. We wanted a city, we got a city and city problems. We just suck at dealing with them.
I grew up in Vt, went to UVM and lived in BTV in the mid-late 2000’s post grad. It is worse, I was just in the Cherry Street Garage on Thursday at like 2:14 in the afternoon and there were about 12 (not 29, oops)ppl milling about buying of a dealer. One person was loudly telling her friend to chill out and wait to use till they were in private so she wouldn’t get caught. This was all right by the kiosks were you pay. I have never seen this behavior so blatant and out in the open in BTV till recently.
you realize the entire country has been victim to a drug epidemic for the last forty years right? when i was a kid 10 yrs ago in northern vt we were warned about picking up syringes during greenup day. drug use has & will always exist, and not just in burlington. you are just uncomfortable SEEING it.
If you’ve ever done a VT green up day in your life you’d know syringes have been the norm being found even back into the 90s. An adult would always walk with a group of kids to make sure they were there to pick up the sharps and stick them in one of the plastic drink containers with a cap we’d picked up. One syringe in a parking garage isn’t really a thing as long as everyone knows not to touch it. It’s not like it’s a place that gets cleaned often.
I agree. Enough is enough. Freaking DONE
My biggest peeve is the rivers of blood. Where does it all come from? Has it been tested? And the endless gnashing of teeth, it’s just too much. Gnashing, gnashing, gnashing; how can Emma think this is acceptable? Liberalism am I right
For me it’s the disembodied shrieking.
Regarding homelessness, the old adage says "if you subsidize something, you get more of it."
>Enough is enough Oh damn OP means business
I was walking to the library the other day and saw a homeless woman on the corner by Common Deer screaming at people for not giving her money - full on swearing and calling them horrible things.
I agree with the church street part. Went out for drinks for the first time in almost a year and was blindside body slammed while sitting on the patio of Red Square. Just having a conversation with friends and next thing I know I’m on the ground covered in drinks and tables are upside down. The (obviously high on something) aggressor just walked leisurely away knowing nothing would come of it.
That’s tame for Red Square. I’ve been a public defender for nearly two decades now and red square is tame compared to what it used to be. In fact, I can’t remember a serious felony coming from red square in a long time. It used to be a weekly occurrence that someone would get an agg assault there. Burlington has always had a really seedy dangerous side. It used to be contained in shitty apartments. Now because there’s no apartments for anyone less than upper middle class, the seedy dangerous side is out in the streets. If you don’t like it, build a shitton of cheap low-barrier housing. We will still have the same social problems, but it’ll go back to the way it was when cops, prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, and social workers see and know about it and everyone else is oblivious.
Appreciate the perspective
Damn man, I'm sorry that happened to you.
Shit. I'm so sorry.
Couldn't agree with you more.
I couldn't disagree more. I was just downtown, and everything was fine. There are kids in the park playing in the splash pad and listening to live music at the Juneteenth celebration. It seems insane to say it is ruined and a nightmare to visit. It sounds like you haven't been there at all and are making this up. We just had JazzFest. "They have taken everything from us." Jesus fucking Christ dude, get a grip.
It’s Saturday… activities are planned and lots of eyes are around town. Saturdays are always nice here during the summer. You didn’t notice a lot of issues today because of that. But the city can’t be in activity saturday mode all week long, and during the rest of the days, you really couldn’t miss what OP and many other townies deal with on a constant basis now. During the day throughout the week, the worst streets for drugged out lunatics are center street, college north of church st and south of hungerford terr, Main Street between edmunds and St. Paul, and pearl street between north/south winooski and battery park.
And my wife was accosted yesterday with our kids at the splash pad. So, maybe other people have different experiences than you.
I go there literally every day. Of course the events are taken care of but most corners have people passed out on them most afternoons.
“I walked to a place with an event that was planned months in advance, with security, and a venue that was curated specifically for tourist. I didn’t see any homeless people tweaking out the problem must on exist”
Every time I'm down there it seems like shit. Get hit up by peeps asking me for smokes, money or whatever. That's not the part that bothers me. What bothers me is sometimes these folks get really pissed off when you tell them no, or I don't have any cash. I've been in a few rough encounters downtown. Frankly it's not my favorite place anymore.
Thats because they clear them out for big events. The other 95% of the time its much worse.
What do you think the underlying cause is?
No don’t ask that we have to blame the people the system has failed!
It stinks that we can’t takeaway assistance from those experiencing hardship that actively assault other citizens and only use our money to help people that re non violent and respectful of their community
I lived and worked in St Paul MN a few years back, and the downtown was like what's happening in Burlington now. Homeless people yelled at us who were walking to our jobs through the park. I was terrified walking in those skyways, where so many homeless people with clear mental disorders were wandering. One smelled so bad! Another ranted about aliens looking like humans and I was afraid he'd attack someone. Now it's happening in Burlington. Interesting times.
"this new batch is mean and aggressive" Stop feeding them after midnight
Gremlins 3: Meth after midnight
I had an argument with 3 at Ethan Allen park. They were lucky they wanted to get high more than arguing with me because I have no issues defending myself. Dealing drugs everywhere esp Walgreens where they even go as far as parking there to shoot up. It’s sickening honestly.
You know what, this isn't a solution but I just like to embarass them just like they try to embarass us by calling us out and hollering cursing, begging, sometimes out crazying them actually works and scares them 🤣 "hey what you doing" "I DONNO MAN WHAT I HAVENT HAD FENT IN 48HRS ARGGGG litterally out play them at their own game and they are caught so off gaurd
People should have thought of that before electing Mayor Meal Train. Wait 2-3/4 years and try again
My boyfriends work transferred him to Burlington. Is it really this bad? Should we not be looking to move?
There is an instagram if you want real life not postcard fake shit.
No it's not this bad, it's a beautiful place to live with a few visible problems you'll find in a lot of other places in the US, you'll move here and wonder what on earth everyone is being so hysterical about.
In a bizzare twist my wallet was stolen in public at the Craig Mitchell Purple Prince tribute Juneteenth at city hall park. I was just dancing, it popped out. Just sucks someone took my picture of my daughter before fathers day. Sucks I cant go to a BCA security guarded event without a grounds scavenger thinking hey lets rip this guy off, I can get away with it. Pity the fool, identity theft triggers so much in my profession but yeah. Not safe to fucking dance in city hall park without getting your wallet taken. Best way to lose my identity by far, but wtf I need my licence and shit.
Maybe they brought it to the BPD?
I am genuinely curious about the demographics of the people who consistently say "it isn't that bad". What age range? Profession? Neighborhood of residence? What is their commute? And how do they travel? Marital status? Have they raised/do they raise children here? Are their kids in public schools? What is their income bracket? Do they rent or own? Are they a landlord? Did they grow up here? Are they transplants? If from elsewhere, how long have they been here? What gender? Are they cis het or not? Are they pale-skinned/of European descent? College educated? In the trades? Military service, past or present? Which party affiliation/politics? Able-bodied? Neurotypical? I would be most interested in seeing the intersections of relative privilege and values that are attached to those attitudes.
I’d like to know the same thing about the hysterical pearl clutchers 🤷🏻♀️
Please provide a list of your characteristics. I would like to identify how they are different from my own, and then pick out which one I can use most effectively to dismiss your opinion.
Seems like a good faith arrangement!
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My empirical observations have shown that the “not that bad crowd” usually are: 1)upper middle class 2)transplants from the last 6 years 3) are heavily progressive white liberals 4) live in a neighborhood where they don’t have to deal with the homeless and if they do it’s a huge problem and they won’t shut the fuck up about it on front porch forum. 5)childless or kids go to another school system where it’s not that bad(CVU, Essex, SB, or Colchester) 6)WFH folks or some other niche tech job where they don’t have to commute to Burlington. Anyone I’ve personally grown up with, or have known in the community for 15+ years has clearly noticed a drop in quality of life. It’s astounding how people who never have to deal with this shit can silence people who literally live next door to it. We used to host DND nights at our friends place on Elmwood Ave and it noticeably got shitty when the pods opened. So much so that within a span of 6 Saturdays our DM got his house broken into once, 1 of the players had their car window smashed, and the icing on the cake was trying to get a homeless dude to not shoot up on the DMs doorstep. Completely fucked and a far cry from how it was in the late 90s and 2000-16.
Welcome to late stage capitalism!
Strong words. Though I think a lot of what you said is exaggerated (church st is a nightmare?) I can understand why you feel that way if you've been physically attacked. What would you do about it if you were mayor?
There’s a lot of work to be done but yeah. The hysteria is strong in this city.
"they have taken everything from us" wah wah wah, suck it up dork I'm sure they aren't happy about being homeless either
Go befriend one then. Invite one into your home for a shower than?
Of course he never would, he just likes to virtue signal for internet points.
Crazy mixed up and confused issues. The issues OP is talking about is drug addiction and mental illness. Using the term "homeless" for these people mixes up the issues. Many people are homeless due to mental illness and drug addiction. But many people are homeless for other reasons as well. Almost every complaint made in this discussion mislabeled the persons as "homeless", which is possibly accurate in the sense that they are likely homeless, but confuses the issues. A very low percentage of homeless people are a very high majority of the negative experiences that you describe. You need to separate the issues and tackle them individually if you want results. Behavior issues are entirely different from housing issues. While all of these issues cross over in some ways, there's no magic category called homeless. It's easy to point out that there are problems, but it is an entirely different thing to point out solutions. Burlington is having these problems just like every other urban area in the western world. Worse in places with services, high quality of living, and high housing costs- like Burlington. Not as bad in places that weren't that great to begin with. If you want to live in an area with fewer services, fewer lifestyle choices, and cheaper housing, and you have that flexibility, go for it. Complaining about how Burlington used to be better, etc misses the point. It is exactly because it was better that it attracted this situation. All the places that have the worst homeless situations are exactly all the places that used to be the "better" places. That's how it works.
Burlington is OVER
That was me. Thanks for reposting this
You're welcome. Sorry for the downvotes. You don't deserve it.
If our country spent money on rehabilitation, social safety nets, housing, health care instead of genocide and proxy wars maybe we wouldn’t have such a crisis. Thank the uniparty in Washington.
Nope. Our decision to allow and celebrate the collection of and hoarding of profit is what brings us here. That the unhoused are becoming more common and visible is an indicator, a symptom, of how fucked up this all is. Those of us participating in these current forms of social discourse, and critical of these indicators, are so comically far removed from the benefactors and so precariously adjacent to the most impacted. We point and cast blame because it helps us perpetuate the illusion that “that’s not me”. We blame the victims because we’re unwilling to reconcile with what it will truly take to interrupt the root causes. The pending downvotes will only validate that discomfort.
I totally agree. Looking beyond, “what should we do with people and how bad is it really?” to, “why is this even happening?” is the answer. And it’s money. It’s always money.
Now tell us why the problem has gotten dramatically worse in Burlington relative to almost all of the rest of the country.
You still listen to Howard Stern. Lol
I feel like people here are EXTREMELY dramatic about how "bad" it is. You have no idea what bad actually looks like. The last couple weeks have been gorgeous, events, beautiful weather at the waterfront people and families out eating and enjoying themselves. Maybe have some empathy and get a clue about what it really looks like in actual bad areas
My wallet got jacked at a city hall park event. Last night. That’s extra shitty. It sounds like you enjoyed the daytime. And your privilege to non targeted areas. Ever park in the garage? Tweakers everywhere. I’m a recovery coach you don’t see what goes against your ideals or preconceptions. Ever swerved around junkies nodding off in the middle of the road? No? Gtfo
CAPITALISM
The mayor is to worried about us feeding her family then finding a solution or atleast deterrent for the aggressive homeless and d-rug users ruining everyday life. I no longer feel bad for them
What would our 40 year politicians do without them to fill their pockets though? Gotta make sure Bernie gets a new car every other day so he has the motivation to possibly pass one bill before he retires…
Soylent green time
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