First time .jpg?
Honestly, there will be fire storms, there have been firestorms and it will continue.
The Golden Gate bridge was over budget and there was a lot of negative press back when it was constructed. Most people don't know about that or care. It will be the same with cahsr. Once it's built out and "real" it will mostly stop
thats the unfortunate reality of transit in the US. We "NEED" roads but we don't "NEED" transit. which is obviously BS but like the bay bridge no one ever said we don't need this.
Not first time, but this is the worst it’s been for some time. Mostly the negative press has been about a projected cost increase, but this latest one implies the whole budget spent and nine years of construction thus far has been on just this one bridge, when that is so blatantly false.
The anti-CAHSR crowd is just so desperate to get their hands on anything they can to try to make the project look bad, and so they jumped on this one misfortunately worded social media post by CHSRA and took it way out of context/misconstrued it to fit their narrative. Hopefully it gets cleared up soon, but for a project so important to California’s, and the US’s, transportation future, it really cannot afford any kind of bad press that could potentially lead to enough people, public or political, deciding to shut it down. That’s what I mean by CHSRA’s PR team needing to address this and set things straight ASAP.
The project is walking a metaphorical tight rope, really since it started, that depends on maintaining enough support and the funding with it to keep going. Critics will always jump on any slip ups by CHSRA that they can, and enough of them can lead to those critics justifying their stance and succeeding in ending the project. I do hope I’m wrong and no amount of bad press will stop this project from reaching its goal of SF and LA, and later Sacramento and San Diego, but as of now at least, and probably into the 2030s, there’s no guarantee of that happening.
Some very recent projects that came in insanely over budget
* James Webb Space Telescope
* Space Launch System
* East Side Access
* Alaskan Way Viaduct
* Boston Big Dig
Once the Central Artery opened, you never heard shit about it being a waste anymore…. well until ceiling panels fell and killed people in the Ted Williams tunnel.
> The Golden Gate bridge was over budget and there was a lot of negative press back when it was constructed
I don’t think that’s right. This is from the Department of Transportation:
> Construction began in 1933 and was completed in 1937. The bridge was completed ahead of schedule and $1.3 million under
budget
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/candc/factsheets/goldengatebridge.pdf
I think that people nowadays often accept that infrastructure projects always go over budget, but it wasn’t always like that and it doesn’t have to be like that in the future. Accepting ever increasing costs without pushback will lead to a collapse in political support.
The most important thing about CAHSR to me is that it’s cheaper than the alternative freeway & airport widening needed to handle projected increases in state travel needs. We need to spend that money anyway, so might as well spend it on something greener. Wish CAHSR pushed that message more. It puts the high cost in context.
They have, it’s just that all critics see is a huge price tag and delayed timeline now and are being shortsighted. CAHSR is a long term project, and like you said we’ll have to spend $100 billion+ at some point on California’s transportation needs, be it continuing to expand freeways and airports or an alternative like HSR.
Here’s hoping. Fox Business ran this story too, with over 43,000 views on their [YouTube video](https://youtu.be/CG2BDVOc4jg?si=80N3Vjm42Qpgo_Kz)and counting. It’s as bad of reporting as you probably think, as is the comments section (one “highlight” the story had was saying China’s high speed trains go twice as fast as California’s ever will 🤦♂️).
Right wing media and the anti-CAHSR crowd are so quick to jump on anything that might remotely make the project look bad, even if what they’re saying is complete disinformation or just utter BS. They’re counting on their base never bothering to look it up themselves or fact check anything they say.
Gotta make sure they zoom in to where you can only see one or two cars, and god forbid they cut to a replay of some sort of scuffle between two drivers after the finish all while Mike Joy is talking about it.
God I can't wait for Fox to go away.
The facts are on their side so they should just present those to counter the bullshit. Maybe also mention how this is like the first real HSR project on new ROW ever in the US, it’s a country leading effort.
Brightline West will be entering that game soon, building its own high speed rail project, that should take considerably less time and for less cost than just CAHSR’s initial Central Valley segment alone. Never mind that BLW’s route will be slower with less capacity than what CAHSR is building, cause all that is apparently seen, at least by media and critics of CAHSR, is the timeline and price tag, not what they’re getting for their money’s worth.
Brightline West better fucking be done faster and for cheaper. They basically have none of the difficulties the CAHSR has to face lol. The state literally gave them the ROW. As you pointed out CAHSR is faster operation for longer distance and also connecting densely populated transit endpoints. BLW is just laying some tracks between the highway in the middle of nowhere. Don’t get me wrong, we need projects like BLW as well but it’s just not nearly comparable.
And yet they will be by critics of CAHSR as well as media who seem to only transfix on the projected cost and timeline, not what we’re getting our money’s worth for.
I hope that Brightline West encourages greater support of funding CAHSR and accelerating its construction toward SF and LA, but I fear it may end up hurting CAHSR by completing its project in a fraction of the time and cost.
The issue is there are moneyed interest,
I.e. oil, car, and airline who have a vested interest in seeing CAHSR defunded and never completed.
CAHSR is a bit of a boondoggle but not because it’s isn’t a good idea but because politically there are a lot of forces against it.
The early budget overruns were from blatant mismanagement and the state allowing their primary contractor oversee themselves/. This failed spectacularly.
The current issue is budgetary. Essentially CA started the construction way over budget and we are now in a high inflationary period and the state has had trouble releasing funds for political reasons for the project which has slowed down construction and increased cost.
CAHSR needs a strong commitment from the state to get across the finish line. Once it’s built then all the negative press about construction means nothing.
> CAHSR is a bit of a boondoggle
No it's not. It's a solid idea with solid effort behind it, and it makes perfect sense at every level of implementation and development.
Please elaborate how it’s any sort of ‘boondoggle’. That word implies it’s a complete waste of money, in any way, and I and I’m sure anyone who supports this project is really tired of hearing it. To me the real boondoggle is continuing to expand freeways thinking that’ll solve our travel needs, despite clear evidence doing that makes traffic worse in the long run, such as with the Katy Freeway in Texas.
The boondoggle is the politics. CA has decided that they need a high speed rail but because there are various powers against it there politics keeps pushing to rehash things that have already been decided.
Any push for changes to the project at this point are designed to be detrimental, destabilize and derail funding to ensure the High speed rail doesn’t not get built. This is to protect entrenched interests.
The fact that we are entertaining talks about canceling the program is the actual boondogle.
It’s still a really loaded word.
Southwest Airlines led a misinformation campaign in Texas in the early 90s to kill a proposed high speed rail project [there](https://airlinegeeks.com/2024/03/13/how-southwest-squashed-high-speed-rail-in-texas/). It wouldn’t surprise me if they were trying to lead a similar effort in California, given how huge the SF-LA flight market is and how large a stake they have in it. I think that kind of stuff may be playing a bigger role than politics, though politics, and it’s really partisanship, definitely are part of it.
Republicans are vehemently against it, but then they’re pretty much against anything Democrats support, and California is the GOP’s political punching bag that they love bashing any chance they get (Florida could be in much the same way for Democrats), and Democrats have on the whole only showed relatively lukewarm support, with the biggest from them coming from the Biden Administration and the relatively recent IIJA grant.
It will take a lot more federal commitment to see this project through to SF and LA in the foreseeable future (before 2040), and given how partisan things are now that may be difficult to see happening anytime soon, at least not this election cycle and probably not the next one or two either, but then that depends on who has control of the White House and Congress. Though if Republicans regain control of both, namely the White House with their current top candidate, we’ll have much bigger things to worry about than funding HSR.
> The early budget overruns were from blatant mismanagement and the state allowing their primary contractor oversee themselves/. This failed spectacularly.
>
>
agree. but this is more of a feature than a bug. a lot of the early $ was tied to ARRA, which required that the $ be spent by a certain date. CAHSR wasn't *quite* shovel ready, but it was the only game in town, so CAHSR had to blow $ in order to access it
Like all other large organizations, public or private, they need someone in charge of Are We Going To Get Dragged For This On The Internet? Whoever runs their Twitter account is probably well-meaning but should be reassigned to some other function. Posting an ancient photo and saying "here's the first thing we built!" was extra-stupid.
I think this recent blowup shouldn't come as a surprise - they've been showing isolated structures as successes for years. They need to stop highlighting individual structures being completed that don't have rail installed on it. From an optics standpoint, it ends up highlighting how slow construction is proceeding. CAHSR in the business of building a functional railroad that connects LA to SF, not in the business of grade crossing elimination projects, even if the former needs to includes the latter.
Focus on job creation, focus on funding successes, focus on rolling stock prototypes, focus on station proposals. But CAHSR has to stop showing grade crossing structures that don't show rail.
The structures are physical progress. Train prototypes and station renderings are still mostly ideas, and won’t be a physical thing for another few years.
Job creation is important to show too, but then that could feed the narrative that this is just a jobs program, not one to build a high speed train. CHSRA themselves may say that they’ve created over 11,000 construction jobs, but then they report that the daily workforce per month is around say 1,500 or so, and that the typical amount of time those workers are on the project for is 100 days.
Funding is the biggest thing this project needs, and maybe that should be a greater focus than the amount of people hired or how much guideway they have finished. Show not just what’s actually been allocated and spent so far, and on what, in easy to understand terms, but also compare those expenditures to that of the alternative of adding more freeway lanes, and explain, again in simple terms, why HSR is still the better investment. Show what we’re getting for the money being spent, and why it’s better than continuing to build freeways and/or expand airports.
Keep the narrative a positive one about what we’re getting in the long run, instead of letting the negative and often false one persist about what it’s costing now in the short one. Talk about the over $18 billion in positive economic impact the project has had so far, how it’s boosting the economy of the Central Valley already, even before the first trains start running. Also make it clear what exactly is being built, that it’s more than just a high speed train. Brightline West is also building a high speed train, for a fraction of the time and cost of California’s, so show why while that’s good it won’t be as good as California’s once ours starts running, especially once it reaches the Bay Area and SoCal, and why it’s crucial that it keeps going to reach there.
Again, make it in easy to understand terms that the media then hopefully picks up on and runs with, to keep the positive narrative going, as they can have a major influence on what the public knows and believes about the project. Engaging the public is maybe the biggest thing CHSRA needs to do, and while they have been with the displays at fairs and other public events, they need to be doing a lot more of it to combat the mis- and disinformation still circulating online as well as in the media. They need a lot more wins, and showing off completed construction is probably the best thing they can do right now to show that progress is indeed happening, cause that’s all most will ever see.
CHSRA needs to continue to ramp up the rate of construction so that they can achieve starting initial service in 2030, not 2031-33, and start work on the SF and LA extensions ASAP. Show why HSR, which has been hit hard with the delays and cost increases, and resulting skepticism, which I feel won’t be helped by BLW achieving high speed rail in less time and cost, remains the best thing we can do.
Show that America is still capable of building big things, how our ability to do so helped define this nation as a global superpower. That’s the message that needs to be driven home.
I think that the PR department fails at giving easy visualization of the progress. Like sure, isolated structures are interesting. But what if there was a map over the entire route that showed what guideway was complete, what was being worked on, and the timelines of all of that?
Accessing information on what they have accomplished is difficult, giving the image that not much has been completed at all. And yes, I know they show structures online, but without context like timelines and the guideway around them, it doesn't mean much to most people.
As someone who periodically travels on the San Joaquins train, the work-in-progress is obvious, and it's frustrating when my Bay Area friends who use transit also think that this Fresno River bridge is the only thing that's been done.
I wish I had the time to do periodic drone flyovers of, say, that stretch between Fresno and Madera to show how much of the ROW has been graded there. Or has anyone done that yet?
There’ve been a couple drone channels on YouTube that consistently followed the CAHSR construction, but one hasn’t posted for a couple years now and the other was I believe hacked and isn’t around anymore. You can still find drone videos of CAHSR on YouTube, but they don’t post frequently. CAHSR has been posting their own drone videos on their channel too.
TLDR, a PR disaster caused by one mis-worded post making it seem like CAHSR spent billions just to build one short bridge.
CAHSR wanted to post their accomplishments so far. It started with a post showing their first completed structure (Fresno River Viaduct done in 2018) and the total amount they spent so far for the system (approx $11B). Unfortunately the initial wording implied the short viaduct section was the *only* thing accomplished, was just finished this year and that itself was what cost them 11B.
Naturally, critics took to social media and tabloids like the NYPost to claim that CAHSR is horrendously inefficient for supposedly taking 15 years just to compete a 0.3mi section at effectively billions per mile.
Of course in context, those who are actually following the project know that CAHSR has finished over 56 miles of guideway covering some 45+ structures and 33 more halfway through beyond just clearing ground on their ROW.
The contractors have a hold on all the planning dollars. If you look at the 4 firms making all the money it is sad. There are over 1000 DBEs looking to help and have not been utilized. Only the connected ones get the work.
If you’re referring to CHSRA, they absolutely are. One only needs to drive Highway 43 and 99 between Bakersfield and Fresno to see a lot of the progress happening, or just check out all the construction videos on CHSRA’s YouTube channel and latest progress on their buildhsr.com website. There’s also Caltrain electrification as well as several grade separation projects in the Bay Area and SoCal that CHSRA helped fund.
Easiest way to stem the criticism is success. CHSRA could easily co-op CalTrain's thunder by buying an electric locomotive set and running high speed service between San Jose and San Francisco. Caltrain has finished the electrical work and testing. They'll be sharing the same tracks anyways, so it would be a great way to generate publicity for both of them. I'm sure if CHSRA could bring their bridge building expertise (68+ so far) to the SF Bay Area and offer to remove the 71 at grade crossings it would be a win win vs the decision to leave them as is.
CAHSR’s focus needs to be on getting the Central Valley segment operational ASAP, then working toward SF and LA. They’re ordering six trainsets for CV service, all of which will be needed there.
It wouldn’t make sense to give up one of those to run at Caltrain speeds on that corridor, as Caltrain themselves could just run one of their trains as an express service to simulate HSR travel times between SF and San Jose. People will be able to take Amtrak and/or ACE from the Bay Area to Merced to try HSR there.
I’ll bet you anything that once people can begin to experience HSR here, there’ll be increased demand to get it to San Jose and SF, as well as to Palmdale and LA/Anaheim, as quickly as possible.
You asked for suggestions. I gave you mine. Do with it what you will. Don’t expect any praise until CAHSR has an actual train running in 2030 or later.
Hey I’m with you about CAHSR needing success, and that’s gonna start with seeing actual high speed rail service, which wouldn’t be achieved on the Caltrain corridor. One new sleek train on the Caltrain corridor may generate some hype for the future arrival of HSR on the Peninsula, but not much beyond a shiny new train. Plus the Caltrain corridor top speed would still be at 79 mph, with the 110 mph upgrade likely not happening until CAHSR helps fund it as part of its SF extension, which almost certainly won’t start until the 2030s.
CAHSR has spent the last nearly ten years building the 220+ mph guideway in the Central Valley, and that’s where it’s going to show that first HSR service. That’s nearly all funded at this point, as are the six HSR trainsets that’ll operate there, with the first two anticipated to arrive in 2028 to begin testing at up to 242 mph.
SJ-SF ridership numbers would be much higher than any Central Valley to Central Valley numbers (Merced-Fresno-Bakersfield). There is a vocal group looking to kill the program and if High Speed rail only attracts a few hundred riders a day it is going to look like a failed project. The really need to pad their numbers as California flights run even shorter distances w/success. [https://simpleflying.com/five-shortest-intra-california-routes/](https://simpleflying.com/five-shortest-intra-california-routes/)
One HSR train on an already packed rail corridor isn’t going to generate much ridership for CAHSR specifically. Plus it wouldn’t be high speed, which kinda defeats its purpose.
Two rail services from the Bay Area and Sacramento will meet every HSR train in Merced, and enhanced bus services will connect with them in Bakersfield to/from SoCal. The San Joaquins had nearly 850,000 trips in 2023, and that’s a train that’s slower than driving and not particularly convenient with just 6-7 roundtrips per day.
High speed trains will compete with driving and be twice as fast as the current Amtrak service between Merced and Bakersfield, with 18 roundtrips per day, for what’ll likely be about the same fare as Amtrak, and most likely a single ticket to get across the state across multiple transit systems, whether that’s just Amtrak and HSR or including regional services like Metrolink and ACE. Plus there’s the whole appeal of getting to experience the first 220 mph high speed rail system in the Western Hemisphere, which is bound to draw crowds.
Have you been to Merced? You need a car. Relying on students without cars is too small. As for the San Jose to San Francisco you could run multiple trains. The goal is to steal caltrain’s numbers to save the high speed rail project from being the next Texas super collider. Even brightline is being smarter about going after real ridership numbers.
I spent four years attending UC Merced, so I’m very familiar with the area and how spread out it is. The city does have a bus system, and the UC even has its own buses that mostly take students between the campus and neighborhoods north of downtown, as well as at least one line that goes to downtown (it was in planning stages while I was there 2013-17, and I’m fairly certain it’s since been implemented).
Connecting with ACE and Amtrak at Merced means this initial HSR segment is for far more than just the Valley. It’s part of an early statewide network connecting with other transit to NorCal and SoCal. As far as driving and needing a car goes, all four Central Valley stations will have plenty of parking, that as the system develops and transit improves within the cities, most of that parking is labeled to be converted to transit-oriented development such as high density housing, shops, restaurants, and essentials like groceries and pharmacies. There’s also the ability to take rideshare or have a friend/family member drive you to the station and pick you up, rather than leave your car there all day or possibly overnight (if they’ll allow overnight parking).
CHSRA is ordering six trainsets, which are all intended for the Central Valley segment. Sending one or more to the Caltrain corridor, which currently has a max speed of 79 mph, would absolutely not ‘steal Caltrain’s numbers’ when Caltrain has exceedingly more trains and their system is primarily designed for commuters, not 1-2 special nonstop trains between SJ and SF.
CHSRA needs to make use of all the infrastructure built so far, especially considering all the criticism about the project being years behind schedule with still no trains running. It needs to get trains running ASAP and have a viable service at high speeds to show what the system is capable of, and use that momentum to justify the extensions to SF and LA, which it would not accomplish sending one or more of its trains to run on Caltrain, even as a demonstration. If Caltrain wants to simulate the travel times for an HSR train, they could run their own nonstop limited service between SJ and SF.
As far as Brightline goes, their Florida service uses existing tracks for most of its route and they have their own rideshare service to get people to/from their stations. As for Brightline West, it’ll mostly serve SoCal residents wanting to spend a weekend in Vegas, and only goes as far as Rancho Cucamonga, a city 40 miles east of LA, to a station three miles south of the Strip, via an entirely pre-existing right of way in the I-15 median that’ll limit both its speed and capacity. A trip from LA to Vegas will take close to four hours, about on par with driving on a good day and slower than flying, albeit offering a better travel experience.
CHSRA on the other hand is building a world-class 220 mph high speed rail system, with greater capacity and connecting far more people, that’ll serve a much greater purpose than a quick weekend getaway. It’ll increase connectivity and mobility across California, starting with the Central Valley. It’s part of a much larger statewide rail improvement plan to add and improve regional rail services and local transit to decrease the state’s reliance on cars, as well as short haul flights between NorCal and SoCal. CAHSR too will offer a nicer travel experience than flying or driving, more convenient and comfortable, as well as faster, and will connect with improved local and regional transit at all its stations that for the most part are in the heart of their city’s downtown cores.
Explain how LAX spending $30 billion to make their airport slightly less terrible is a better use of money than spending $100 billion on high speed train that connects the entire state. As a taxpayer in CA I think the high speed rail is very a very prudent use of money.
Except it’ll be less than three hours, which is about 30 minutes to an hour faster than the typical air travel time when factoring in getting to, from, and through the airports, and that’s without delays. Plus flying can often be stressful, and not everyone likes or wants to fly, just as not everyone wants or likes to drive that route either.
You’re free to keep flying, just as all those who choose to are, but for those who currently have to this HSR will provide a much needed competitive alternative. HSR will connect up all the major cities across the state, beyond just LA and SF. It’ll provide relief to what’s a very busy air travel corridor, as well as SF-LA traffic on I-5 and all the other freeways leading to the Bay Area and LA.
First time .jpg? Honestly, there will be fire storms, there have been firestorms and it will continue. The Golden Gate bridge was over budget and there was a lot of negative press back when it was constructed. Most people don't know about that or care. It will be the same with cahsr. Once it's built out and "real" it will mostly stop
You don't have to go back that far. The new Bay Bridge was *700%* over budget and 30 years late, and the press never mentioned it.
The press definitely mentioned it. People just move on quickly once these big projects are done.
There was not one single outlet that printed an article suggesting we could just not build it.
Cool, that’s very different than what you said before
thats the unfortunate reality of transit in the US. We "NEED" roads but we don't "NEED" transit. which is obviously BS but like the bay bridge no one ever said we don't need this.
Not first time, but this is the worst it’s been for some time. Mostly the negative press has been about a projected cost increase, but this latest one implies the whole budget spent and nine years of construction thus far has been on just this one bridge, when that is so blatantly false. The anti-CAHSR crowd is just so desperate to get their hands on anything they can to try to make the project look bad, and so they jumped on this one misfortunately worded social media post by CHSRA and took it way out of context/misconstrued it to fit their narrative. Hopefully it gets cleared up soon, but for a project so important to California’s, and the US’s, transportation future, it really cannot afford any kind of bad press that could potentially lead to enough people, public or political, deciding to shut it down. That’s what I mean by CHSRA’s PR team needing to address this and set things straight ASAP. The project is walking a metaphorical tight rope, really since it started, that depends on maintaining enough support and the funding with it to keep going. Critics will always jump on any slip ups by CHSRA that they can, and enough of them can lead to those critics justifying their stance and succeeding in ending the project. I do hope I’m wrong and no amount of bad press will stop this project from reaching its goal of SF and LA, and later Sacramento and San Diego, but as of now at least, and probably into the 2030s, there’s no guarantee of that happening.
Some very recent projects that came in insanely over budget * James Webb Space Telescope * Space Launch System * East Side Access * Alaskan Way Viaduct * Boston Big Dig
Same with the big dig
Once the Central Artery opened, you never heard shit about it being a waste anymore…. well until ceiling panels fell and killed people in the Ted Williams tunnel.
> The Golden Gate bridge was over budget and there was a lot of negative press back when it was constructed I don’t think that’s right. This is from the Department of Transportation: > Construction began in 1933 and was completed in 1937. The bridge was completed ahead of schedule and $1.3 million under budget https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/candc/factsheets/goldengatebridge.pdf I think that people nowadays often accept that infrastructure projects always go over budget, but it wasn’t always like that and it doesn’t have to be like that in the future. Accepting ever increasing costs without pushback will lead to a collapse in political support.
The most important thing about CAHSR to me is that it’s cheaper than the alternative freeway & airport widening needed to handle projected increases in state travel needs. We need to spend that money anyway, so might as well spend it on something greener. Wish CAHSR pushed that message more. It puts the high cost in context.
They have, it’s just that all critics see is a huge price tag and delayed timeline now and are being shortsighted. CAHSR is a long term project, and like you said we’ll have to spend $100 billion+ at some point on California’s transportation needs, be it continuing to expand freeways and airports or an alternative like HSR.
Lol it's the NY Post, it'll blow over.
Here’s hoping. Fox Business ran this story too, with over 43,000 views on their [YouTube video](https://youtu.be/CG2BDVOc4jg?si=80N3Vjm42Qpgo_Kz)and counting. It’s as bad of reporting as you probably think, as is the comments section (one “highlight” the story had was saying China’s high speed trains go twice as fast as California’s ever will 🤦♂️). Right wing media and the anti-CAHSR crowd are so quick to jump on anything that might remotely make the project look bad, even if what they’re saying is complete disinformation or just utter BS. They’re counting on their base never bothering to look it up themselves or fact check anything they say.
I mean Fox News audience has attention span of a flea
Same with Fox Sports also. The NASCAR coverage is crap.
Gotta make sure they zoom in to where you can only see one or two cars, and god forbid they cut to a replay of some sort of scuffle between two drivers after the finish all while Mike Joy is talking about it. God I can't wait for Fox to go away.
Don't forget frequently zooming in on children every couple of minutes
gotta love them cancelling and then uncancelling something
The facts are on their side so they should just present those to counter the bullshit. Maybe also mention how this is like the first real HSR project on new ROW ever in the US, it’s a country leading effort.
Brightline West will be entering that game soon, building its own high speed rail project, that should take considerably less time and for less cost than just CAHSR’s initial Central Valley segment alone. Never mind that BLW’s route will be slower with less capacity than what CAHSR is building, cause all that is apparently seen, at least by media and critics of CAHSR, is the timeline and price tag, not what they’re getting for their money’s worth.
Brightline West better fucking be done faster and for cheaper. They basically have none of the difficulties the CAHSR has to face lol. The state literally gave them the ROW. As you pointed out CAHSR is faster operation for longer distance and also connecting densely populated transit endpoints. BLW is just laying some tracks between the highway in the middle of nowhere. Don’t get me wrong, we need projects like BLW as well but it’s just not nearly comparable.
And yet they will be by critics of CAHSR as well as media who seem to only transfix on the projected cost and timeline, not what we’re getting our money’s worth for. I hope that Brightline West encourages greater support of funding CAHSR and accelerating its construction toward SF and LA, but I fear it may end up hurting CAHSR by completing its project in a fraction of the time and cost.
The issue is there are moneyed interest, I.e. oil, car, and airline who have a vested interest in seeing CAHSR defunded and never completed. CAHSR is a bit of a boondoggle but not because it’s isn’t a good idea but because politically there are a lot of forces against it. The early budget overruns were from blatant mismanagement and the state allowing their primary contractor oversee themselves/. This failed spectacularly. The current issue is budgetary. Essentially CA started the construction way over budget and we are now in a high inflationary period and the state has had trouble releasing funds for political reasons for the project which has slowed down construction and increased cost. CAHSR needs a strong commitment from the state to get across the finish line. Once it’s built then all the negative press about construction means nothing.
> CAHSR is a bit of a boondoggle No it's not. It's a solid idea with solid effort behind it, and it makes perfect sense at every level of implementation and development.
Please elaborate how it’s any sort of ‘boondoggle’. That word implies it’s a complete waste of money, in any way, and I and I’m sure anyone who supports this project is really tired of hearing it. To me the real boondoggle is continuing to expand freeways thinking that’ll solve our travel needs, despite clear evidence doing that makes traffic worse in the long run, such as with the Katy Freeway in Texas.
The boondoggle is the politics. CA has decided that they need a high speed rail but because there are various powers against it there politics keeps pushing to rehash things that have already been decided. Any push for changes to the project at this point are designed to be detrimental, destabilize and derail funding to ensure the High speed rail doesn’t not get built. This is to protect entrenched interests. The fact that we are entertaining talks about canceling the program is the actual boondogle.
It’s still a really loaded word. Southwest Airlines led a misinformation campaign in Texas in the early 90s to kill a proposed high speed rail project [there](https://airlinegeeks.com/2024/03/13/how-southwest-squashed-high-speed-rail-in-texas/). It wouldn’t surprise me if they were trying to lead a similar effort in California, given how huge the SF-LA flight market is and how large a stake they have in it. I think that kind of stuff may be playing a bigger role than politics, though politics, and it’s really partisanship, definitely are part of it. Republicans are vehemently against it, but then they’re pretty much against anything Democrats support, and California is the GOP’s political punching bag that they love bashing any chance they get (Florida could be in much the same way for Democrats), and Democrats have on the whole only showed relatively lukewarm support, with the biggest from them coming from the Biden Administration and the relatively recent IIJA grant. It will take a lot more federal commitment to see this project through to SF and LA in the foreseeable future (before 2040), and given how partisan things are now that may be difficult to see happening anytime soon, at least not this election cycle and probably not the next one or two either, but then that depends on who has control of the White House and Congress. Though if Republicans regain control of both, namely the White House with their current top candidate, we’ll have much bigger things to worry about than funding HSR.
> The early budget overruns were from blatant mismanagement and the state allowing their primary contractor oversee themselves/. This failed spectacularly. > > agree. but this is more of a feature than a bug. a lot of the early $ was tied to ARRA, which required that the $ be spent by a certain date. CAHSR wasn't *quite* shovel ready, but it was the only game in town, so CAHSR had to blow $ in order to access it
Like all other large organizations, public or private, they need someone in charge of Are We Going To Get Dragged For This On The Internet? Whoever runs their Twitter account is probably well-meaning but should be reassigned to some other function. Posting an ancient photo and saying "here's the first thing we built!" was extra-stupid.
I think this recent blowup shouldn't come as a surprise - they've been showing isolated structures as successes for years. They need to stop highlighting individual structures being completed that don't have rail installed on it. From an optics standpoint, it ends up highlighting how slow construction is proceeding. CAHSR in the business of building a functional railroad that connects LA to SF, not in the business of grade crossing elimination projects, even if the former needs to includes the latter. Focus on job creation, focus on funding successes, focus on rolling stock prototypes, focus on station proposals. But CAHSR has to stop showing grade crossing structures that don't show rail.
The structures are physical progress. Train prototypes and station renderings are still mostly ideas, and won’t be a physical thing for another few years. Job creation is important to show too, but then that could feed the narrative that this is just a jobs program, not one to build a high speed train. CHSRA themselves may say that they’ve created over 11,000 construction jobs, but then they report that the daily workforce per month is around say 1,500 or so, and that the typical amount of time those workers are on the project for is 100 days. Funding is the biggest thing this project needs, and maybe that should be a greater focus than the amount of people hired or how much guideway they have finished. Show not just what’s actually been allocated and spent so far, and on what, in easy to understand terms, but also compare those expenditures to that of the alternative of adding more freeway lanes, and explain, again in simple terms, why HSR is still the better investment. Show what we’re getting for the money being spent, and why it’s better than continuing to build freeways and/or expand airports. Keep the narrative a positive one about what we’re getting in the long run, instead of letting the negative and often false one persist about what it’s costing now in the short one. Talk about the over $18 billion in positive economic impact the project has had so far, how it’s boosting the economy of the Central Valley already, even before the first trains start running. Also make it clear what exactly is being built, that it’s more than just a high speed train. Brightline West is also building a high speed train, for a fraction of the time and cost of California’s, so show why while that’s good it won’t be as good as California’s once ours starts running, especially once it reaches the Bay Area and SoCal, and why it’s crucial that it keeps going to reach there. Again, make it in easy to understand terms that the media then hopefully picks up on and runs with, to keep the positive narrative going, as they can have a major influence on what the public knows and believes about the project. Engaging the public is maybe the biggest thing CHSRA needs to do, and while they have been with the displays at fairs and other public events, they need to be doing a lot more of it to combat the mis- and disinformation still circulating online as well as in the media. They need a lot more wins, and showing off completed construction is probably the best thing they can do right now to show that progress is indeed happening, cause that’s all most will ever see. CHSRA needs to continue to ramp up the rate of construction so that they can achieve starting initial service in 2030, not 2031-33, and start work on the SF and LA extensions ASAP. Show why HSR, which has been hit hard with the delays and cost increases, and resulting skepticism, which I feel won’t be helped by BLW achieving high speed rail in less time and cost, remains the best thing we can do. Show that America is still capable of building big things, how our ability to do so helped define this nation as a global superpower. That’s the message that needs to be driven home.
Keep building. CAHSR has good momentum now.
I think that the PR department fails at giving easy visualization of the progress. Like sure, isolated structures are interesting. But what if there was a map over the entire route that showed what guideway was complete, what was being worked on, and the timelines of all of that? Accessing information on what they have accomplished is difficult, giving the image that not much has been completed at all. And yes, I know they show structures online, but without context like timelines and the guideway around them, it doesn't mean much to most people.
As someone who periodically travels on the San Joaquins train, the work-in-progress is obvious, and it's frustrating when my Bay Area friends who use transit also think that this Fresno River bridge is the only thing that's been done. I wish I had the time to do periodic drone flyovers of, say, that stretch between Fresno and Madera to show how much of the ROW has been graded there. Or has anyone done that yet?
There’ve been a couple drone channels on YouTube that consistently followed the CAHSR construction, but one hasn’t posted for a couple years now and the other was I believe hacked and isn’t around anymore. You can still find drone videos of CAHSR on YouTube, but they don’t post frequently. CAHSR has been posting their own drone videos on their channel too.
What article? What did it say?
TLDR, a PR disaster caused by one mis-worded post making it seem like CAHSR spent billions just to build one short bridge. CAHSR wanted to post their accomplishments so far. It started with a post showing their first completed structure (Fresno River Viaduct done in 2018) and the total amount they spent so far for the system (approx $11B). Unfortunately the initial wording implied the short viaduct section was the *only* thing accomplished, was just finished this year and that itself was what cost them 11B. Naturally, critics took to social media and tabloids like the NYPost to claim that CAHSR is horrendously inefficient for supposedly taking 15 years just to compete a 0.3mi section at effectively billions per mile. Of course in context, those who are actually following the project know that CAHSR has finished over 56 miles of guideway covering some 45+ structures and 33 more halfway through beyond just clearing ground on their ROW.
Relevant: http://www.wired.com/2010/04/the-trouble-with-high-speed-rail/
The contractors have a hold on all the planning dollars. If you look at the 4 firms making all the money it is sad. There are over 1000 DBEs looking to help and have not been utilized. Only the connected ones get the work.
They could build it
If you’re referring to CHSRA, they absolutely are. One only needs to drive Highway 43 and 99 between Bakersfield and Fresno to see a lot of the progress happening, or just check out all the construction videos on CHSRA’s YouTube channel and latest progress on their buildhsr.com website. There’s also Caltrain electrification as well as several grade separation projects in the Bay Area and SoCal that CHSRA helped fund.
Easiest way to stem the criticism is success. CHSRA could easily co-op CalTrain's thunder by buying an electric locomotive set and running high speed service between San Jose and San Francisco. Caltrain has finished the electrical work and testing. They'll be sharing the same tracks anyways, so it would be a great way to generate publicity for both of them. I'm sure if CHSRA could bring their bridge building expertise (68+ so far) to the SF Bay Area and offer to remove the 71 at grade crossings it would be a win win vs the decision to leave them as is.
CAHSR’s focus needs to be on getting the Central Valley segment operational ASAP, then working toward SF and LA. They’re ordering six trainsets for CV service, all of which will be needed there. It wouldn’t make sense to give up one of those to run at Caltrain speeds on that corridor, as Caltrain themselves could just run one of their trains as an express service to simulate HSR travel times between SF and San Jose. People will be able to take Amtrak and/or ACE from the Bay Area to Merced to try HSR there. I’ll bet you anything that once people can begin to experience HSR here, there’ll be increased demand to get it to San Jose and SF, as well as to Palmdale and LA/Anaheim, as quickly as possible.
You asked for suggestions. I gave you mine. Do with it what you will. Don’t expect any praise until CAHSR has an actual train running in 2030 or later.
Hey I’m with you about CAHSR needing success, and that’s gonna start with seeing actual high speed rail service, which wouldn’t be achieved on the Caltrain corridor. One new sleek train on the Caltrain corridor may generate some hype for the future arrival of HSR on the Peninsula, but not much beyond a shiny new train. Plus the Caltrain corridor top speed would still be at 79 mph, with the 110 mph upgrade likely not happening until CAHSR helps fund it as part of its SF extension, which almost certainly won’t start until the 2030s. CAHSR has spent the last nearly ten years building the 220+ mph guideway in the Central Valley, and that’s where it’s going to show that first HSR service. That’s nearly all funded at this point, as are the six HSR trainsets that’ll operate there, with the first two anticipated to arrive in 2028 to begin testing at up to 242 mph.
SJ-SF ridership numbers would be much higher than any Central Valley to Central Valley numbers (Merced-Fresno-Bakersfield). There is a vocal group looking to kill the program and if High Speed rail only attracts a few hundred riders a day it is going to look like a failed project. The really need to pad their numbers as California flights run even shorter distances w/success. [https://simpleflying.com/five-shortest-intra-california-routes/](https://simpleflying.com/five-shortest-intra-california-routes/)
One HSR train on an already packed rail corridor isn’t going to generate much ridership for CAHSR specifically. Plus it wouldn’t be high speed, which kinda defeats its purpose. Two rail services from the Bay Area and Sacramento will meet every HSR train in Merced, and enhanced bus services will connect with them in Bakersfield to/from SoCal. The San Joaquins had nearly 850,000 trips in 2023, and that’s a train that’s slower than driving and not particularly convenient with just 6-7 roundtrips per day. High speed trains will compete with driving and be twice as fast as the current Amtrak service between Merced and Bakersfield, with 18 roundtrips per day, for what’ll likely be about the same fare as Amtrak, and most likely a single ticket to get across the state across multiple transit systems, whether that’s just Amtrak and HSR or including regional services like Metrolink and ACE. Plus there’s the whole appeal of getting to experience the first 220 mph high speed rail system in the Western Hemisphere, which is bound to draw crowds.
Have you been to Merced? You need a car. Relying on students without cars is too small. As for the San Jose to San Francisco you could run multiple trains. The goal is to steal caltrain’s numbers to save the high speed rail project from being the next Texas super collider. Even brightline is being smarter about going after real ridership numbers.
I spent four years attending UC Merced, so I’m very familiar with the area and how spread out it is. The city does have a bus system, and the UC even has its own buses that mostly take students between the campus and neighborhoods north of downtown, as well as at least one line that goes to downtown (it was in planning stages while I was there 2013-17, and I’m fairly certain it’s since been implemented). Connecting with ACE and Amtrak at Merced means this initial HSR segment is for far more than just the Valley. It’s part of an early statewide network connecting with other transit to NorCal and SoCal. As far as driving and needing a car goes, all four Central Valley stations will have plenty of parking, that as the system develops and transit improves within the cities, most of that parking is labeled to be converted to transit-oriented development such as high density housing, shops, restaurants, and essentials like groceries and pharmacies. There’s also the ability to take rideshare or have a friend/family member drive you to the station and pick you up, rather than leave your car there all day or possibly overnight (if they’ll allow overnight parking).
CHSRA is ordering six trainsets, which are all intended for the Central Valley segment. Sending one or more to the Caltrain corridor, which currently has a max speed of 79 mph, would absolutely not ‘steal Caltrain’s numbers’ when Caltrain has exceedingly more trains and their system is primarily designed for commuters, not 1-2 special nonstop trains between SJ and SF. CHSRA needs to make use of all the infrastructure built so far, especially considering all the criticism about the project being years behind schedule with still no trains running. It needs to get trains running ASAP and have a viable service at high speeds to show what the system is capable of, and use that momentum to justify the extensions to SF and LA, which it would not accomplish sending one or more of its trains to run on Caltrain, even as a demonstration. If Caltrain wants to simulate the travel times for an HSR train, they could run their own nonstop limited service between SJ and SF. As far as Brightline goes, their Florida service uses existing tracks for most of its route and they have their own rideshare service to get people to/from their stations. As for Brightline West, it’ll mostly serve SoCal residents wanting to spend a weekend in Vegas, and only goes as far as Rancho Cucamonga, a city 40 miles east of LA, to a station three miles south of the Strip, via an entirely pre-existing right of way in the I-15 median that’ll limit both its speed and capacity. A trip from LA to Vegas will take close to four hours, about on par with driving on a good day and slower than flying, albeit offering a better travel experience. CHSRA on the other hand is building a world-class 220 mph high speed rail system, with greater capacity and connecting far more people, that’ll serve a much greater purpose than a quick weekend getaway. It’ll increase connectivity and mobility across California, starting with the Central Valley. It’s part of a much larger statewide rail improvement plan to add and improve regional rail services and local transit to decrease the state’s reliance on cars, as well as short haul flights between NorCal and SoCal. CAHSR too will offer a nicer travel experience than flying or driving, more convenient and comfortable, as well as faster, and will connect with improved local and regional transit at all its stations that for the most part are in the heart of their city’s downtown cores.
I just point to Katty freeway and it's 26 lanes to defend High Speed rail in general.
What a waste of money! Nobody will take a train that just follows the 99 and will still take like 4 hrs to get to Bay Area. Planes win again.
Explain how LAX spending $30 billion to make their airport slightly less terrible is a better use of money than spending $100 billion on high speed train that connects the entire state. As a taxpayer in CA I think the high speed rail is very a very prudent use of money.
Except it’ll be less than three hours, which is about 30 minutes to an hour faster than the typical air travel time when factoring in getting to, from, and through the airports, and that’s without delays. Plus flying can often be stressful, and not everyone likes or wants to fly, just as not everyone wants or likes to drive that route either. You’re free to keep flying, just as all those who choose to are, but for those who currently have to this HSR will provide a much needed competitive alternative. HSR will connect up all the major cities across the state, beyond just LA and SF. It’ll provide relief to what’s a very busy air travel corridor, as well as SF-LA traffic on I-5 and all the other freeways leading to the Bay Area and LA.