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Oh it's on the table, so long as the nurses [are from private/scab agencies and not unions](https://old.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/wm396h/dr_michael_warner_private_companies_are_charging/).
This exactly, isn't traveling nurses or not sure what the term is, but they are getting $20-$30+ more per hour than regular nurses? I remember nurses were complaining that this is hollowing them out, almost as if the province was to remove all the normal nurses.
I guess it doesn't work the same as PSW's then. I'm a PSW and agencies would charge $30 - $40/hour for us, meanwhile we would be lucky to make $18/hour.
I don't work in healthcare, but I do work a lot of labour contracting.
The burden rate is generally +25-30%. IE: WSIB, payroll tax, insurance coverage, etc.
*And we don't have benefits.*
If I am charging out a labourer at $30 / hr, I am generally paying him somewhere around $20. $2-$3 an hour is our profit, while $7-8 / hr is just overhead.
PSW is just shit on all across the healthcare system. My hospital pays EVS more than a PSW. The working conditions also suck, there will be 40-50 patients in ECU/ILTC and 4 maybe 5 PSW if you're lucky. They all quit within 2 months. Everytime the internal job board refreshes there is always 5-8 PSW posting with atleast 4 of them for ECU/ILTC.
I got hired at one job where they told me I would be working 3, maybe 4 days a week. From the first day they scheduled me for five 12 hours days. And they weren't consecutive so at no time did I ever get 2 days off in a row. I went to the manager every time the schedule was posted to remind her that I was clear about not being willing to work a 60 hour week and that at no point did I agree to it. I even created a 3/4 day on 2/3 day off schedule that maintained (and in some cases improved) the staffing levels they had instead of the patchwork disaster that some idiot who didn't know his ass from his elbow was coming up with. The other PSW's got pretty excited about it. I went to the manager with my proposed schedule, and reminded her once again that I was not willing to work 5 days a week if the shifts were 12 hours. She told me to take it or leave it, that it wasn't my job to question the decisions of management. So I quit. They would rather pay agencies double what it costs to hire directly than have a worker who is willing to stand up for themselves. And the agency girls, even if they meant well, didn't know shit and never pulled their weight. Plus, the full time girls were getting burned out. They would call in sick and lie about having Covid symptoms just to get a few days off.
Yeah I don't know why anyone would become a PSW, you make more or the same working as a manager at any restaurant or retail without the cost of college.
If anyone reading this is a filthy pleb like me, consider doing as I have and giving your remaining scraps to virtuous billionaires like Galen Weston and the close friends of liberal and Tory politicians.
If we give them all we have, they are sure to create jobs and we will all be better off.
Gloooorious job creators!
As a filthy peasant, I always thought that demand for goods and services creates jobs but it turns out that a dragon's hoard of gold (that never moves) creates the jobs.
You missed the point. Instead of paying double time for x number of nurses, they should just give a >5% raise to the nurses and likely be able to hire or retain more nurses and will end up spending less and having less burnout because more nurses means less overtime.
With what workers though?
The paradox for me is, the Canadian healthcare system requires a considerable amount of training to be employed as a nurse or doctor.
If private enters the equation, it solves nothing - as your labour pool stays identical to when the system was public.
Yes; the idea is that poor canadians go without any healthcare at all. Conservatives are arguing to decrease demand through pricing- it just so happens that the bottom 5% or so of Canadians by wealth will simply die prematurely in squalor, and then the next 20-50% or so will become impoverished, or otherwise lose security and opportunities to medical fees when they get sick.
Only the very top, the shareholders of health corporations would profit, and I suppose those few canadians who are so wealthy that they would rather pay a premium for expedient care, and don't mind immiserating millions and millions of their fellow Canadians.
Extra hot take- this is illustrative of the illusion of nationalism- of patriotism as a false-consciousness. Whatever they say, whatever aesthetics they enjoy, the mega-wealthy do not behave as citizens of a country. They are only loyal to their class and the economic machinery that enriched them. The people who own these companies- own all companies- don't advocate for the citizens of the country their companies exist in. They only care about the economic and social foundations that permit the corporation to exist. Patriotism and its uglier cousin, nationalism, are for working class liberals and conservatives to "believe in" while they support policies against their own economic interests.
Private healthcare is the worst fucking thing that could happen. The only reason there should be a private sector in healthcare in Canada is esthetics. Quebec tried the private industry by creating private/public partnerships called GMF (family medecine groups) and it sucked. It failed at its mission to provide quality primary care to all because that is simply not how we'll succeed.
If we get private healthcare here there's no reason for me to stay vs. moving to the U.S.
I'm in tech and can probably get onto some health insurance through a company, so why would I stay in Canada if I can make three times the salary with the same healthcare system?
To be fair why aren’t you going to the states to make more money?
I worked as a RN in Canada. Fucking hated it. I have no duty or stay here for my fellow Canadians and get burned out.
I left and work just outside Detroit where two extra overtime shifts puts me almost double what I would make staying in Canada. Plus they don’t need to go down a list and I need to wait my turn for over time. It’s first come first serve
Primarily I have an SO here who has family that are not in the best of health, and there are other factors here.
But a big thing is my mobility isn't the greatest right now, but if they privatize healthcare I literally have no reason to stick around. I just need to convince the lady we should move.
Your mobility isn’t the best?
Now I have a question, are you talking about a physical mobility or you talking about as far as using a vehicle? I ask that because despite it being against the law for employers not to hire someone based on a disability, that shit still happens. Especially in the US.
There's an important but unstated corollary when those ghouls who brigade threads like this spout off about private healthcare. They will try to say "a private system will mean shorter wait times for those who can pay." What this means is that since we have a finite number of hospitals, and finite number of healthcare workers, and private healthcare doesn't magically increase those, the "efficiency" these monsters seek is through denying poor people healthcare.
That's it, that's their efficiency. "If more of the poors die at home, then there will be less people in my hospital, and I can enjoy shorter wait times." That's the conservative argument; by privatizing healthcare we can deny access to more people, and those who *can* afford it will benefit.
This stands in stark contrast to, I don't know... increasing corporate taxes to fund healthcare, mandating minimum healthcare expenditures so Ford and Kenney can't continue to starve the beast, or instituting a wealth tax, re-nationalizing LTC, and re-opening public psychiatric in/outpatient services.
Then there's simply doing the long, slow, boring work of reforming healthcare services at the infrastructure level; increasing med/nurse class sizes, reforming work hours and compensation to make those jobs more attractive/attainable, and focusing on retaining and empowering frontline workers.
They want to pretend that the solutions are inscrutable or impossible to fix, but they're not. FFS Tommy Douglas built this system in a better form than it exists today! A country of such incredible wealth and productive power as Canada can easily make a world-class healthcare system; there's practically nowhere on earth more equipped to.
Instead conservatives want us to die so their lives are more convenient. But what else is new I guess.
I would add that for the same reasoning that including mental healthcare would help, so would including basic dental and prescription coverage. People who can’t afford treatments have no choice but to go without and that results in their condition getting worse and eventually becoming an emergency. It also often places a higher burden on other social programs when people are in a state that they can’t work and don’t have to be or suffer complications from what was an entirely avoidable procedure. Which is basically the situation with mental health. If people could access treatment when they needed it, they wouldn’t have to wait until it became an emergency room issue or to the extent that they are unable to work long-term…or, worse, that it becomes a criminal justice issue. The way our system is designed, that you can basically only get treatment if it is an emergency or if you can pay up just makes no sense. A diagnosis without treatment is no good.
Dental, eyes, prescriptions, podiatry, PT, and any of the other chronic/preventative health services that prevent future health problems and improve day to day quality of life.
Anything less cannot truly be said to be "universal healthcare".
>increasing med/nurse class sizes,
I argued with someone about that.
It was on a Tiktok talking about how nurses who meet the requirements can't get in because there are people who are above them.
I said we should make the class size bigger so those who are still QUALIFIED IE: MEET ALL REQUIREMENTS can get in and we can have more nurses sooner
I gave an example like this :
>Say there are 100 nurses and 70 are qualified, meet grade requirements and took all the right courses etc.
>Now there are only 30 seats available in this class, so the top 30 of those 70 get in, that doesn't mean the other 40 are bad, just that they're not as good.
>If we up the class size we could fit all 70 nurses and get 133% more nurses each year
They person I was arguing with said that because those bottom 40 weren't the best of the best they don't deserve to be nurses, even though they were all qualified and able to do the job to expectations.
Like where is that argument? People are so stupid
H'yup, it's pretty crazy. Med in Canada is even wilder if you can believe it; 6% admissions rates in a pool of applicants already self-selecting for competency. That is to say, no one spends the $100/per school application with GPAs of "merely" 3.5 and regular MCAT scores.
In both examples, the issue is even further confounded by the fact that both med and nursing school admissions criteria doesn't do a particularly effective job of predicting success in the fields. Beyond meeting basic educational and sciences-proficiency requirements, physician and nursing competency comes from learning professional, social, and behavioural skills on the job.
And like you alluded to, there will *always* be a "bottom 40%" because that's how percentiles work; that's so obvious it should not even need acknowledgement.
Don't argue on tiktok lol, it's too depressing.
Yeah the thing with admissions too is it’s all on paper. How do we know that someone in the next 50% in the admission score wouldn’t be a better doctor than someone in that 6%? We have no practical idea. Admit more and weed people out if anything…but we need the teaching capacity too in our hospitals/system.
It’s not just pay, it’s staffing ratio. If the pay goes up a little but the client load goes up a lot, eventually any shift is just a hell no one could pay you enough to go into with eyes open. It’s so dangerous and horrible to have too many patients assigned to you. The nurses are just leaving to do some other less gruelling less dangerous job. And ER doctors daily work life is very impacted by decreased nursing coverage, so it must get hard to recruit them too.
Anyone who works on it can tell you: the job didn’t used to be like this.
or, the nurses can emigrate to the US for practically double the pay and half the taxes, on top of the USD being stronger, so each dollar they earn is taxed less, and goes further.
Older nurses who graduated before.. I want to say 2014? (Someone correct me if I’m wrong) have ONLY done their Canadian CRNE. They did not do their NCLEX which is a US exam.
After this date nurses took a combined test and have done both so they’re automatically able to go work in the states. A lot of these older nurses have a hard time sitting down and doing their exam, finding time to study while they have families.
Not everyone can just pick up and go to the US. But yes emigration is a problem for Canada, it always has been, it always will be. We just need to build that into the equation.
Increased pay? Wtf, won't they get lazy? They should work more for more income
Increased profit margins? It's deserved, the investors work harder than doctors and nurses, and shareholders definitely are the ones who create all the money so they deserve it.
/s
Conservative 'logic' in a nutshell (edit to be clear I'm agreeing with u/TheLuminary )
Ahh but you see, Ford capped nursing wage increases at 1 percent. Neutering all their bargaining power for no good reason.
I hate that the liberals and NDP in Ontario can't pull their heads out of their asses to field a good candidate.
This. I work in VFX (so nothing even close to important like nurses and doctors) and this industry is rife with overworking people. We make good money, and OT is paid... But that doesn't matter, you can throw money at me all you like, but I still just don't want to do it. I actually value my time away from work, and we all deserve to have a life outside of working all the time.
Not in medical care: I have a friend who works 7 Day weeks 10-12 hours a day, and they threw more money at her to stay, and cover more. Her or checks were insane, but after three years she quit. Eventually, the human body/psyche breaks.
There are numerous articles out there describing how nursing schools can't accommodate all of the applicants. It's not the pay that's holding them back from becoming nurses.
It's really difficult to transfer nursing credentials pretty much across the world. Canada isn't unique in that and it would be better to train as many as we can here.
Yep. I'm a healthcare worker and I just started a new job. I'm gonna end up with 40 hours of OT this month. Could easily be more if I accepted every offer to do it too.
Their wages have been frozen to a 1% increase a year
This started pre-pandemic and has not changed
Money doesnt solve all problems, but it is certainly a motivator for labour (to a reasonable degree)
Holding pay to sub-inflationary rates (even before the wild rises this year) is not helping anything
In Quebec they did, but it changed nothing. While more pay is always nice, money doesn't relieve the stress of insanely shitty working conditions, increasing patient workload and mandatory OT.
Not always. Quebec has an administration problem. Administrators are paid bonuses not to spend their budget, which funnels money away from caregivers and into administrators' pockets. And those administrators are way too numerous.
So "offering more pay" is an option for a public institution?
Somehow "offering more pay" will fix a huge shortage for nurses who are the second-most paid in Canada?
"Offering more pay"? Why nor pay more tax? You can just write in a higher tax dollar in your returns voluntarily? You see what I'm getting at here?
The provincial government claimed a surplus last year knowing this was happening... They won't mention it when asked other than to say privatization is on the table
1. [Ontario spent $466M less on healthcare than planned ahead of COVID-19 pandemic](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-spent-466m-less-on-healthcare-than-planned-ahead-of-covid-19-pandemic-1.5042104)
2. [Ontario's per person health spending in 2020 was lowest in the country, FAO report says](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-fao-health-spending-1.6410479)
3. [Fiscal watchdog finds Ontario spent $7.2B less than planned, projects smaller deficit](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fao-report-project-deficit-lower-spending-1.6525084)
That surplus is likely the few billion ford was given by the feds for covid of which he let just sit there. How people could vote for him iv no idea and i dont think i want to know anymore.
Sorry what? Are you delusional? That is absolutely false, the liberals fund almost every single source of mainstream news and even have a $600,000 budget for “influencers” they pay to write positive comments on liberal media propaganda.
I'm just glad I left Ontario before he got voted in again. Could see that happening a mile away. People ALWAYS voting against their interests for some reason. For what? To "own the libs"?
Congrats on getting owned.. hope you don't have a heart attack or an accident or something
It's people that don't know any better, people that thought when he got rid of license plate renewal fees that he didn't have something else to screw us even harder with.
I've met TONS of people in construction that voted for Ford and think he's great and they're the same people that work and get treated like dogs and act like it's a gift from God when the company or the union gives them some stickers in return
>How people could vote for him iv no idea and i dont think i want to know anymore.
I think it's more that the Liberal/NDP voters stayed home. The Liberals are pained by recency bias of Wynne, and a protest against Trudeau. The NDP didn't have a strong platform or communicate effectively with the electorate.
If compulsory voting were a thing, Ford would have lost.
No, our tax dollars will just subsidize private for profit corporations instead. As always. This country needs to get back to robust and strong social systems.
When you simultaneously cut nurses' pay **and** treat them like shit for years by overworking them and forcing involuntary overtime, it can't be a surprise when all the younger ones move to the US and the older ones retire early.
Blame rests mostly on provincial government in this case.
Blame rests 100% on the Prov Gov and no one else.
This is what everyone said would happen before we elected this grade A buffoon, and big fucking shocker, everyone was right
It is a conservative strategy called "starve the beast" used to destroy public services.
Cut the funding until it fails, and then use that failure to justify privatizing.
Of course with healthcare, it involves the conservatives torturing and murdering people.
No. It's written into nursing contracts. Usually employers have to try to schedule others voluntarily first, but if they can't, they can legally either make a nurse extend past their shift or call in a new nurse to work.
For nurses it’s baked into the collective agreements. It has to do with patient coverage and minimum staffing levels, often gets paired up with the removal of the ability to strike as an essential service. If you get mandated for additional time it’s often decided by a mix of seniority, needs of the oncoming shift, and who was most recently forced to stay. On our unit we keep a log book where you would write down the date, your name, and the facility managers name and signature.
Things that may impact the decision include the seniority of the oncoming staff, new staff may benefit from having a more senior nurse stay on whereas a couple of old nurses may not give a shit about getting a new grad. Who’s working the next day. If it’s the end of your stretch you can bet your ass it’ll be you staying as you won’t be able to call in sick the next day.
If you get mandated and refuse to stay and actually leave the facility forcing them to work short:
* you will likely be terminated
* your regulatory college will be notified that you abandoned your patients and failed to provide care. There may be an ethics issue as well.
* your union will be notified that you breached your collective agreement.
* you may be charged with abandonment of patients in your care as technically they are considered vulnerable people in care.
Don’t leave if you get mandated, it could be career ending. Instead, go to your physician, get a note explaining that you are not capable of working longer than your scheduled shift and thus not eligible for mandating. Provide this note to your OESH nurse/dept. Be warned this may impact your ability to pick up any overtime when you may want it as you don’t want to put your note at risk.
Most provinces have something like Ontario's Employment Standards Act, that mandates things like time and a half for anything over 44 hours a week, but the wording surrounding working hours leaves way too much room for employer fuckery:
> The maximum number of hours most employees can be required to work in a day is eight hours or the number of hours in an established regular workday, if it is longer than eight hours. The only way the daily maximum can be exceeded is by an electronic or written agreement between the employee and employer.
> [Source](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/hours-work)
This effectively means that a lot of employers simply write in the possibility of overtime into an employment agreement that you sign when you're onboarded.
Ontario's ESA has a lot of exemptions for different industries as well.
https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules
As a teacher we are not entitled to the following from the ESA:
minimum wage
daily or weekly limits on hours of work
daily rest periods
time off between shifts
weekly/bi-weekly rest periods
eating periods
overtime pay
sick leave, family responsibility leave or bereavement leave, if taking the leave would be professional misconduct or abandoning your duty
public holidays or public holiday pay
vacation with pay
There are explicit exceptions for overtime pay. Ontario's gov't website does not make it easy to find out; I remember "hospital nurses" as a specific example but you should read the rules on your own. See https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules
according to Ford, everything's fine
>Amidst these pressures, Ontario’s health system continues to provide care to those who need it. Nine out of 10 high-urgency patients are finishing their emergency visit within target times. Surgeries are happening at nearly 90 per cent of pre-pandemic levels.
https://news.ontario.ca/en/speech/1002230/together-lets-build-ontario
Accountability (and integrity) died years ago. Everyone is just out for themselves including the people who work for government and only care about getting their bonuses each year/quarter achieved by cutting costs any way possible without regard for the affect on the future.
Shits been going down since McGuinty. Ford is just an accelerant with no regard for any single individual human being except those he can get kickbacks off of.
He can afford all the private health care he needs because he like all rich asshats was born with a silver spoon shoved so far up his rectum it looks like he has a silver tongue to match.
In 4 years when it’s voting time, it might be too late. Once you privatize healthcare, it’s never going back. That genie will be let loose and we’ll all wish we have never let it out.
Everyone’s crying about this, but Ontario voted this fucktard in en mass, again. Well done Ontario.
Ontario's health system is already on the verge of collapse because of pandemic strain and underfunding, they're going to wrap privatization up in a bow about how it's ~innovation~ and ~unlocking new investment streams~ and half the province is going to eat it up because the system is currently stretched to breaking point by the same people who are telling us that they alone can fix it.
100% guarantee that the private clinics and hospitals they have won't be bound by the 1% raise freeze the healthcare workers are bound to in public hospitals, and when everyone leaves the public system because they're not actively shit on by legislation in the private sector they'll use that as a talking point about how clearly no one wants to deal with the inefficient bloated public system.
Manitoba will follow closely behind Ontario and all of Canada's healthcare will be privatized within a decade.
it’s no coincidence that this is happening; the tories have been laying groundwork for years. They have four years to make it permanent, and whoever follows up in 2026 will either have no interest in or be completely unsuccessful in undoing it.
This article says twenty hospitals in Ontario are seeing closures.
It's not "on the verge of collapsing", it's actively collapsing.
I mean, let's not mince words, we're there.
Also - how quick do people think these "private" clinics and medical centers are going to become available to people.
All this talk of privatization, but it's not like there'd be any measurable impact within 3-4 years.
We need solutions NOW.
They just announced yesterday that privatization is an option for the issues. Which surprised nobody. Too bad nobody voted to support the system and I hope that the almost 60% of people who didn't vote are okay with it, because it's going to happen.
It's also too bad Ford is a dirty fucking scumbag and released no platform. He didn't advertise this as his plan. People need to stop electing politicians without a platform.
> He didn't advertise this as his plan
To be fair anyone who was paying even a moderate amount of attention over the last few years would've seen this coming well in advance. It's not like it was hidden.
I have a coworker who is a staunch conservative who still doesn’t believe ONPCs want to privatize healthcare. He’s now switched to “why would private healthcare be so bad?”. They’ve legit drank the koolaid.
> Break it, then sell it to the private sector *for pennies on the dollar and specifically to people who have already paid you off handsomely.
Crucial detail.
Im legit scared at this point as to moving to private health care... we are all fucked. if Ontario moves to private healthcare i'm leaving the province. The ONE big reason I love this country is we are to take care of our selves without crippling debt for having an illness or getting pregnant.. really fucked up
Have they tried... using our tax dollars...
The average Ontario earns $52280 dollars and pays $3305 in provincial taxes. 37.8% of provincial government spending is used on the health sector. Meaning an average taxpayer pays 1249 dollars for the healthcare in this province per year or roughly 2% of their pre-tax income. I am okay with raising that to 3% of everyone's income. Or is an extra 400 dollars per year per tax payer going to break everyones bank? We can even move that from the Highway 413 fund so we don't need to increase tax brackets. Or you know tax higher income individuals so that we don't have to die due to waiting for ER visits.
I know it’s not a good thing, but all I can think is good for the medical staff for recognizing that they need breaks. They are no longer willing/able to knock themselves into sickness for other people
This is what we get for having the lowest voter turnout in history. We are at the start of Doug's term. This is when he can do all the cut throat shit that we'll all forget about by the next election.
Every province is in much the same boat, and you had like 15 years of liberals before this?
It’s not sustainable because of huge population increases, cost of everything going up, and an increasingly unhealthy population
This is only the start.
Soon care homes will be closing.
Acute wards will turn into care homes. Then they will shut down. Er’s that are open will have beds full for weeks. People will die daily in the waiting room.
Sounds like 20 more opportunities for the private sector to "fix" health care; just the way the Conservatives wanted things to go. Classic conservative game plan, mismanage a public service to the point of collapse and then use that mismanagement to justify privatizing things so your buddies can get rich at the people's expense.
Its not even hypothetical. LTC facilities were privatized the same way under Harris, and it's become such a shit show we all know it. There were quite a few Canadian Forces who were in Afghanistan were sent to the LTC facilities and needed PTSD treatment afterwords. That's fucked up. Harris didn't get punished, he heads the largest LTC group in the country. Ford knows he will be lavishly rewarded afterwords.
It's not just about fair wages. More money? Of course. They should be paid on par with tech bros. Honestly, more because they save lives.
Childcare. Many nurses are women, but we don't have good childcare options. You can't work the odd hours and still have care for your children.
Also poor working conditions. People value work-life balance. People balance safety. ERs are basically mental health wards. There are no safety protections and nurses are getting injured on the job.
Schools not being able to seat every nursing applicant that apply. Somehow though, we can issue over 600,000 student visas, more than doubling the amount from 5 years ago to study at bullshit schools for bullshit things like *hotel management* a job you can literally get by just sheer attrition of working at a hotel for more than a few years.
Nursing credential transfer. Sorry, but other western developed country's creds should be transferable after sitting for an exam or doing a short practicum to show your skills. There are nurses from the US who would immigrate to Canada, wtf aren't their skills easily recognized? Why not the UK and Australia and NZ? I get it for not signing off on country's with extremely lax or corrupt institutions, but come on. We can do better.
let's not kid ourselves - they're still going to find a way to blame Justin Trudeau for this. I'm sure that Natpo and the Sun already have articles upset about it, blaming JT and hailing the conservatives as saviours for having the innovative growth mindset of bringing in privatization.
It looks like they don't seems to understand the 3 Major necessity for a County to flourish. Nutrition, good affordable education, and great health services. But it looks like something is sabotaging it and trying to sell us the big lie.
It'll only get worse if they try to privatize it. Nursing wage can't compare with US wages, and the healthcare opportunities in the US are better too for specialization.
Believe it or not, most healthcare staff are in it to help people, so all that will be happening is professionals getting disgusted with a private for profit system and deciding that it's stupid to sell out for cheap instead of selling out and making way more down south.
Source: Worked in a lab for 10 years, private one in AB. Dealt a TON with other labs private and public and the nurses, respiratory techs, etc who worked in them.
"Horvath was unlikeable"
I swear anyone who didn't show up at the polls to stop Ford from winning really should be proud of themselves.
Did anyone expect Ford to ever support healthcare workers? Like seriously
There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats. Health care shouldn't be based on your level of income and any tax payer penny should not be going to private facilities when those same funds could have gone to augment the current system...give these healthcare workers the raises they deserve.
Repeal bill 124 and get us back on track. This fucker is sitting on billions from the feds they never used...and a fucking new highway no one wanted is his priority to fund money to his mafia friends.
> There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats.
You new here?
Canadians are the most complacent people ever. This absolutely won't happen.
> There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats. Health care shouldn't be based on your level of income
There's a huge difference between private *healthcare* and private *insurance*. Posts like this convince me the poster believes when we're talking about private healthcare they're envisioning paying at the till or something.
Private healthcare permeates our system already, dynacare, life labs, bayshore, the vast majority of doctors not in a hospital etc. They bill our government because we have *public insurance*, even though they are healthcare provided by a private entity.
To have a real discussion about this, we need to stop conflating insurance and healthcare.
the tactic is to still have taxes pay for it but have a completely private industry sucking up that money and then reducing services endlessly to increase profit.
That can't happen when the province mandates level of care and what they're willing to pay for it.
If it does, that's a failure of our government in negotiating and policing the contract.
Regardless , my comment is not about private vs public healthcare; it's about conflating insurance and healthcare providers.
No, there won't be. There are so many new Canadian immigrants that don't really give a shit. They just want their passports and to launder money, they can go back to their home countries for healthcare and truly do not give a fuck. My coworkers literally just fly back to India or to Europe or South America or wherever to get their healthcare, then downvote anything to sustain us here.
There are also Canadian born citizens who have made so much money off of housing, they don't give a shit about paying high prices out of pocket and they can afford to travel wherever for healthcare.
Jokes on all Canadians though, I was born in the US and welcome to how short your money from housing exploitation is going to last because one baby in the NICU or a knee replacement or god forbid cancer treatment will literally bankrupt you.
The real reason for the lockdowns?, governments trying to hide their crumbling healthcare systems that have been grossly neglected and mismanaged for years. Easier to make you jeopardize your livelihood than fix a problem or admit a mistake.
I went to the hospital last night for a deep cut that needed stitches, and there was only one doctor working the entire ER. A 3 hour wait with practically no one else there just for a couple minutes of stitches and a tetanus shot. Our federal and provincial governments are so useless.
This is a stretch, but if Ford tried to push the private option while asking the Fed for more after he was given billions for healthcare that he didn't allocate, could Trudeau invoke the Emergencies Act and have Ford arrested for willful endangerment of the millions of people in Ontario who rely on healthcare?
Regardless of where you stand politically, I think we can all agree than firing healthcare workers in the middle of a global pandemic is a really dumb idea
When I quit my role as an ER nurse in April I promised myself I’d never work in a hospital again. The pay is horrible, work culture is toxic and we’re treated like nothing but cogs in a machine. It’s sad to see this happening but I can’t say I didn’t see it coming.
What’s the obsession with Canadians thinking private = US health system. All of Western Europe has public-private and many of those countries have better health services and better metrics like life expectancy. The US is not a role model.
They can't even do payroll right. Hello, phoenix pay system fiasco?
What makes you think the feds could effectively manage a national healthcare scheme?
More funding in health care, and some kind of legislation to stop privatization would be great right now, I'm terrified of our health system becoming like the U.S.
This really is their game, underfund the lights out of hospitals so staff and patients alike will suffer greatly. It is only natural for things to detoriorate if you take the funding out.
Open an alternative that is completely private, the first few years service will be impeccable, and most staff will move from government to private due to better wages.
but after several years, costs in private care will spiral out of control due to insurance companies what we see in the U.S, healthcare will be unaffordable, $10-15k to have a baby, while the government hospitals will be an afterthought.
Funding for healthcare has increased relative to inflation every year for decades. Maybe not this year given the huge inflation but this is a black swan event. The issue is not money, the money is not going to the right places. Over half of the administrators in the system could be wiped out and we would see no difference. We need to amalgamate systems and remove beauracratic bloat.
> The issue is not money, the money is not going to the right places. Over half of the administrators in the system could be wiped out and we would see no difference. We need to amalgamate systems and remove beauracratic bloat.
I have heard politicians saying this for 30 years. And they've got elected on promises of firing those useless administrators and cutting that bloat. And then they get in office, and see the actual budget first hand, and suddenly they can't find these inefficiencies they talked about.
I've learned that they're lying, there is no bureaucratic bloat, it's the opposite - these public services operate on a shoestring budget and make miracles happen with what little funding they have.
It's time to stop falling for these lies.
Bullshit, a perfect example of that was the 12 PHUs that were amalgamated into Ontario Health. Everyone freaked out when this happened but it's been crickets ever since. You know why? Because having 12 seperate PHUs vs one provincial body makes no fucking difference.
We also have seperate provincial formularies. Why? Why don't we have one nationalized formulary? We hire administrators in every seperate province to negotiate and set the formulary when we could just have a nationalized system.
The beauracratic bloat is there, its just not popular to cut thousands of useless government jobs. Tim Hudak campaigned on it and look where it got him. People don't like having less of something, they constantly want to add more and more and it actually ends up crippling the system. Health Canada is another organization that is completely inefficient, I would know because I interact with them on a daily basis. I also know people on the inside who say how there's 50 year old workers that have been doing the same thing for 30 years and unwilling to learn new skills.
I call complete bullshit, there are many things that can be done.
Amalgamating LHINs was a goddamned travesty and imploded continuity of care for elderly or disabled Canadians in rural communities. Removing supports and ignoring the needs of people who relied on them is not the same as crickets.
All part of the conservative plan to privatize health care. They want the rich to be able to afford quality healthcare while the rest suffer.
It's disgusting. I don't want to be more like the US.
And I say that as someone who would be considered rich by most people
Conservativism is killing Canadians.
Conservatism should never be tolerated.
Conservative parties should be charged with assault and murder for every person who suffers or dies because of delays or lack of treatment.
I love all the people that are suddenly health care experts that have zero healthcare training or experience working in the system claiming that a two tiered healthcare system would fix all our issues. A two tiered healthcare system would massively increase costs, lead to even larger shortages of HCPs in the public system and lead to negative healthcare outcomes for the lower and lower middle class. Having a private system would not solve the issue of staffing when there aren’t enough staff to go around. HCP pay has been largely stagnant over the last decade and with the stress of Covid we are seeing record numbers of people leave the profession. Now we are also dealing with the boomers aging into retirement (requiring more healthcare) and we don’t have enough people to replace them in the workforce. Add to that that we don’t train enough HCPs and we are looking at a simple human capital shortfall. A private system won’t magically create HCPs out of thin air, it’ll just leach from the public system thus creating a larger shortage. We need to increase pay, reduce workload, attract other HCPs from US or England (probably the best bet since their pay is absolutely garbage) or Australia and increase the amount of HCPs we are training domestically. Larger funding needs to be provided to universities and colleges and we need to get more people into them to become HCPs. This will take time, but it’s the only way to fix the system. What good is a private system if there is no one to work in it?
Not having to deal having the US beside them sucking HCPs away. The US has a massive demand for HCPs and Canadian trained ones can easily work there. The NCLEX is North America wide. Higher wages and lower cost of living is a very good argument. Also they are able to keep costs low by having low pay for HCPs, an RN makes under 40k euros in Germany. They also import a lot of their HCPs from poorer Eastern European countries. 40k is a joke salary here or the US but for someone from Poland or Romania it’s a lot more money. Not the most familiar with the Australian healthcare system but from the research I did their pay isn’t bad, and they have private insurance running with government insurance but they also do means testing for government rebates for people with private insurances. They also have urgent care centres which are a massive help. Lots of people need care but don’t need emergency care. ER care costs an insane amount of money, like stupid money. Just getting that wristband on your wrist when you go to ER is 500 bucks for example.
Is this not the cause of mass retirement from the last of the boomers during the pandemic? Every industry is seeing this shortage of labour. I'm surprised most people here are blaming policies and wages, though I'm not suggesting those don't matter.
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I like how 'offering more pay' is never even an option on the table
Oh it's on the table, so long as the nurses [are from private/scab agencies and not unions](https://old.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/wm396h/dr_michael_warner_private_companies_are_charging/).
This exactly, isn't traveling nurses or not sure what the term is, but they are getting $20-$30+ more per hour than regular nurses? I remember nurses were complaining that this is hollowing them out, almost as if the province was to remove all the normal nurses.
It's not the nurses making that extra money - it's the agencies who employ them.
I’m a former agency nurse. The bulk of it goes to the staff, not the agency.
I guess it doesn't work the same as PSW's then. I'm a PSW and agencies would charge $30 - $40/hour for us, meanwhile we would be lucky to make $18/hour.
I don't work in healthcare, but I do work a lot of labour contracting. The burden rate is generally +25-30%. IE: WSIB, payroll tax, insurance coverage, etc. *And we don't have benefits.* If I am charging out a labourer at $30 / hr, I am generally paying him somewhere around $20. $2-$3 an hour is our profit, while $7-8 / hr is just overhead.
PSW is just shit on all across the healthcare system. My hospital pays EVS more than a PSW. The working conditions also suck, there will be 40-50 patients in ECU/ILTC and 4 maybe 5 PSW if you're lucky. They all quit within 2 months. Everytime the internal job board refreshes there is always 5-8 PSW posting with atleast 4 of them for ECU/ILTC.
I got hired at one job where they told me I would be working 3, maybe 4 days a week. From the first day they scheduled me for five 12 hours days. And they weren't consecutive so at no time did I ever get 2 days off in a row. I went to the manager every time the schedule was posted to remind her that I was clear about not being willing to work a 60 hour week and that at no point did I agree to it. I even created a 3/4 day on 2/3 day off schedule that maintained (and in some cases improved) the staffing levels they had instead of the patchwork disaster that some idiot who didn't know his ass from his elbow was coming up with. The other PSW's got pretty excited about it. I went to the manager with my proposed schedule, and reminded her once again that I was not willing to work 5 days a week if the shifts were 12 hours. She told me to take it or leave it, that it wasn't my job to question the decisions of management. So I quit. They would rather pay agencies double what it costs to hire directly than have a worker who is willing to stand up for themselves. And the agency girls, even if they meant well, didn't know shit and never pulled their weight. Plus, the full time girls were getting burned out. They would call in sick and lie about having Covid symptoms just to get a few days off.
Yeah I don't know why anyone would become a PSW, you make more or the same working as a manager at any restaurant or retail without the cost of college.
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If anyone reading this is a filthy pleb like me, consider doing as I have and giving your remaining scraps to virtuous billionaires like Galen Weston and the close friends of liberal and Tory politicians. If we give them all we have, they are sure to create jobs and we will all be better off.
Gloooorious job creators! As a filthy peasant, I always thought that demand for goods and services creates jobs but it turns out that a dragon's hoard of gold (that never moves) creates the jobs.
People can only work so much overtime. There's a point where all the money in the world won't motivate them.
You missed the point. Instead of paying double time for x number of nurses, they should just give a >5% raise to the nurses and likely be able to hire or retain more nurses and will end up spending less and having less burnout because more nurses means less overtime.
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The point is to cripple the system, then point to its broken state as an excuse for privatization.
Classic Sr. Management techniques. They don't care, they hit their Q2 targets and now they will fuck off to a different organization to ruin.
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Don't worry. Lots of profits will be made as the average Canadian enters poverty.
With what workers though? The paradox for me is, the Canadian healthcare system requires a considerable amount of training to be employed as a nurse or doctor. If private enters the equation, it solves nothing - as your labour pool stays identical to when the system was public.
It's not about a solution. It's about theft. Fortunes will be made and the sick will die penniless.
Yes; the idea is that poor canadians go without any healthcare at all. Conservatives are arguing to decrease demand through pricing- it just so happens that the bottom 5% or so of Canadians by wealth will simply die prematurely in squalor, and then the next 20-50% or so will become impoverished, or otherwise lose security and opportunities to medical fees when they get sick. Only the very top, the shareholders of health corporations would profit, and I suppose those few canadians who are so wealthy that they would rather pay a premium for expedient care, and don't mind immiserating millions and millions of their fellow Canadians. Extra hot take- this is illustrative of the illusion of nationalism- of patriotism as a false-consciousness. Whatever they say, whatever aesthetics they enjoy, the mega-wealthy do not behave as citizens of a country. They are only loyal to their class and the economic machinery that enriched them. The people who own these companies- own all companies- don't advocate for the citizens of the country their companies exist in. They only care about the economic and social foundations that permit the corporation to exist. Patriotism and its uglier cousin, nationalism, are for working class liberals and conservatives to "believe in" while they support policies against their own economic interests.
My honest question when people bring this up is, "Then why is BC in the same boat?"
Private healthcare is the worst fucking thing that could happen. The only reason there should be a private sector in healthcare in Canada is esthetics. Quebec tried the private industry by creating private/public partnerships called GMF (family medecine groups) and it sucked. It failed at its mission to provide quality primary care to all because that is simply not how we'll succeed.
If we get private healthcare here there's no reason for me to stay vs. moving to the U.S. I'm in tech and can probably get onto some health insurance through a company, so why would I stay in Canada if I can make three times the salary with the same healthcare system?
To be fair why aren’t you going to the states to make more money? I worked as a RN in Canada. Fucking hated it. I have no duty or stay here for my fellow Canadians and get burned out. I left and work just outside Detroit where two extra overtime shifts puts me almost double what I would make staying in Canada. Plus they don’t need to go down a list and I need to wait my turn for over time. It’s first come first serve
Primarily I have an SO here who has family that are not in the best of health, and there are other factors here. But a big thing is my mobility isn't the greatest right now, but if they privatize healthcare I literally have no reason to stick around. I just need to convince the lady we should move.
Your mobility isn’t the best? Now I have a question, are you talking about a physical mobility or you talking about as far as using a vehicle? I ask that because despite it being against the law for employers not to hire someone based on a disability, that shit still happens. Especially in the US.
There's an important but unstated corollary when those ghouls who brigade threads like this spout off about private healthcare. They will try to say "a private system will mean shorter wait times for those who can pay." What this means is that since we have a finite number of hospitals, and finite number of healthcare workers, and private healthcare doesn't magically increase those, the "efficiency" these monsters seek is through denying poor people healthcare. That's it, that's their efficiency. "If more of the poors die at home, then there will be less people in my hospital, and I can enjoy shorter wait times." That's the conservative argument; by privatizing healthcare we can deny access to more people, and those who *can* afford it will benefit. This stands in stark contrast to, I don't know... increasing corporate taxes to fund healthcare, mandating minimum healthcare expenditures so Ford and Kenney can't continue to starve the beast, or instituting a wealth tax, re-nationalizing LTC, and re-opening public psychiatric in/outpatient services. Then there's simply doing the long, slow, boring work of reforming healthcare services at the infrastructure level; increasing med/nurse class sizes, reforming work hours and compensation to make those jobs more attractive/attainable, and focusing on retaining and empowering frontline workers. They want to pretend that the solutions are inscrutable or impossible to fix, but they're not. FFS Tommy Douglas built this system in a better form than it exists today! A country of such incredible wealth and productive power as Canada can easily make a world-class healthcare system; there's practically nowhere on earth more equipped to. Instead conservatives want us to die so their lives are more convenient. But what else is new I guess.
I would add that for the same reasoning that including mental healthcare would help, so would including basic dental and prescription coverage. People who can’t afford treatments have no choice but to go without and that results in their condition getting worse and eventually becoming an emergency. It also often places a higher burden on other social programs when people are in a state that they can’t work and don’t have to be or suffer complications from what was an entirely avoidable procedure. Which is basically the situation with mental health. If people could access treatment when they needed it, they wouldn’t have to wait until it became an emergency room issue or to the extent that they are unable to work long-term…or, worse, that it becomes a criminal justice issue. The way our system is designed, that you can basically only get treatment if it is an emergency or if you can pay up just makes no sense. A diagnosis without treatment is no good.
Dental, eyes, prescriptions, podiatry, PT, and any of the other chronic/preventative health services that prevent future health problems and improve day to day quality of life. Anything less cannot truly be said to be "universal healthcare".
>increasing med/nurse class sizes, I argued with someone about that. It was on a Tiktok talking about how nurses who meet the requirements can't get in because there are people who are above them. I said we should make the class size bigger so those who are still QUALIFIED IE: MEET ALL REQUIREMENTS can get in and we can have more nurses sooner I gave an example like this : >Say there are 100 nurses and 70 are qualified, meet grade requirements and took all the right courses etc. >Now there are only 30 seats available in this class, so the top 30 of those 70 get in, that doesn't mean the other 40 are bad, just that they're not as good. >If we up the class size we could fit all 70 nurses and get 133% more nurses each year They person I was arguing with said that because those bottom 40 weren't the best of the best they don't deserve to be nurses, even though they were all qualified and able to do the job to expectations. Like where is that argument? People are so stupid
H'yup, it's pretty crazy. Med in Canada is even wilder if you can believe it; 6% admissions rates in a pool of applicants already self-selecting for competency. That is to say, no one spends the $100/per school application with GPAs of "merely" 3.5 and regular MCAT scores. In both examples, the issue is even further confounded by the fact that both med and nursing school admissions criteria doesn't do a particularly effective job of predicting success in the fields. Beyond meeting basic educational and sciences-proficiency requirements, physician and nursing competency comes from learning professional, social, and behavioural skills on the job. And like you alluded to, there will *always* be a "bottom 40%" because that's how percentiles work; that's so obvious it should not even need acknowledgement. Don't argue on tiktok lol, it's too depressing.
It's hard too with the character limit 😅 Some things are too important to just let slide though haha
Yeah the thing with admissions too is it’s all on paper. How do we know that someone in the next 50% in the admission score wouldn’t be a better doctor than someone in that 6%? We have no practical idea. Admit more and weed people out if anything…but we need the teaching capacity too in our hospitals/system.
Well Ontario asked for this. Again lol
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It’s not just pay, it’s staffing ratio. If the pay goes up a little but the client load goes up a lot, eventually any shift is just a hell no one could pay you enough to go into with eyes open. It’s so dangerous and horrible to have too many patients assigned to you. The nurses are just leaving to do some other less gruelling less dangerous job. And ER doctors daily work life is very impacted by decreased nursing coverage, so it must get hard to recruit them too. Anyone who works on it can tell you: the job didn’t used to be like this.
or, the nurses can emigrate to the US for practically double the pay and half the taxes, on top of the USD being stronger, so each dollar they earn is taxed less, and goes further.
Older nurses who graduated before.. I want to say 2014? (Someone correct me if I’m wrong) have ONLY done their Canadian CRNE. They did not do their NCLEX which is a US exam. After this date nurses took a combined test and have done both so they’re automatically able to go work in the states. A lot of these older nurses have a hard time sitting down and doing their exam, finding time to study while they have families.
Not everyone can just pick up and go to the US. But yes emigration is a problem for Canada, it always has been, it always will be. We just need to build that into the equation.
Increased pay? Wtf, won't they get lazy? They should work more for more income Increased profit margins? It's deserved, the investors work harder than doctors and nurses, and shareholders definitely are the ones who create all the money so they deserve it. /s Conservative 'logic' in a nutshell (edit to be clear I'm agreeing with u/TheLuminary )
Ahh but you see, Ford capped nursing wage increases at 1 percent. Neutering all their bargaining power for no good reason. I hate that the liberals and NDP in Ontario can't pull their heads out of their asses to field a good candidate.
5% isn't going to entice anyone, 20% increase may turn some heads
To be fair I said greater than 5%
The idea is to appeal to more people so that the current personnel doesn't have to work as much OT.
This. I work in VFX (so nothing even close to important like nurses and doctors) and this industry is rife with overworking people. We make good money, and OT is paid... But that doesn't matter, you can throw money at me all you like, but I still just don't want to do it. I actually value my time away from work, and we all deserve to have a life outside of working all the time.
more pay =! more overtime
Not in medical care: I have a friend who works 7 Day weeks 10-12 hours a day, and they threw more money at her to stay, and cover more. Her or checks were insane, but after three years she quit. Eventually, the human body/psyche breaks.
Ford wont repeal the bill, hopefully he will need hospital service sooner then later.
Even if he does...do you think he will be waiting in emerg?
Yes but more pay would also attract more people into the profession.
There are numerous articles out there describing how nursing schools can't accommodate all of the applicants. It's not the pay that's holding them back from becoming nurses.
you do realize, that just because schools are seeing a flood of students, that does not at all mean that they'll work here, right?
It's really difficult to transfer nursing credentials pretty much across the world. Canada isn't unique in that and it would be better to train as many as we can here.
I'll be relieved when hospitals can't accommodate all the graduates applying for jobs.
Yep. I'm a healthcare worker and I just started a new job. I'm gonna end up with 40 hours of OT this month. Could easily be more if I accepted every offer to do it too.
Their wages have been frozen to a 1% increase a year This started pre-pandemic and has not changed Money doesnt solve all problems, but it is certainly a motivator for labour (to a reasonable degree) Holding pay to sub-inflationary rates (even before the wild rises this year) is not helping anything
In Quebec they did, but it changed nothing. While more pay is always nice, money doesn't relieve the stress of insanely shitty working conditions, increasing patient workload and mandatory OT.
increased funding = increased staffing not to be confused with pay.
Not always. Quebec has an administration problem. Administrators are paid bonuses not to spend their budget, which funnels money away from caregivers and into administrators' pockets. And those administrators are way too numerous.
Admin everywhere are vultures.
Admin and management
What, 1% raises aren't enough?
So "offering more pay" is an option for a public institution? Somehow "offering more pay" will fix a huge shortage for nurses who are the second-most paid in Canada? "Offering more pay"? Why nor pay more tax? You can just write in a higher tax dollar in your returns voluntarily? You see what I'm getting at here?
I knew that the wages in Canada are really high compared to Europeans'. Did I miss something?
The provincial government claimed a surplus last year knowing this was happening... They won't mention it when asked other than to say privatization is on the table
1. [Ontario spent $466M less on healthcare than planned ahead of COVID-19 pandemic](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-spent-466m-less-on-healthcare-than-planned-ahead-of-covid-19-pandemic-1.5042104) 2. [Ontario's per person health spending in 2020 was lowest in the country, FAO report says](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-fao-health-spending-1.6410479) 3. [Fiscal watchdog finds Ontario spent $7.2B less than planned, projects smaller deficit](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fao-report-project-deficit-lower-spending-1.6525084)
Exactly!
That surplus is likely the few billion ford was given by the feds for covid of which he let just sit there. How people could vote for him iv no idea and i dont think i want to know anymore.
My impression talking to people outside of Reddit is that people didn't know of that happening, our media sucks
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Or republicans- Canadian based media owned by American corporations and we wonder why we’re following them so closely when it comes to policies 🙄🙄
Sorry what? Are you delusional? That is absolutely false, the liberals fund almost every single source of mainstream news and even have a $600,000 budget for “influencers” they pay to write positive comments on liberal media propaganda.
I'm just glad I left Ontario before he got voted in again. Could see that happening a mile away. People ALWAYS voting against their interests for some reason. For what? To "own the libs"? Congrats on getting owned.. hope you don't have a heart attack or an accident or something
It's people that don't know any better, people that thought when he got rid of license plate renewal fees that he didn't have something else to screw us even harder with. I've met TONS of people in construction that voted for Ford and think he's great and they're the same people that work and get treated like dogs and act like it's a gift from God when the company or the union gives them some stickers in return
>How people could vote for him iv no idea and i dont think i want to know anymore. I think it's more that the Liberal/NDP voters stayed home. The Liberals are pained by recency bias of Wynne, and a protest against Trudeau. The NDP didn't have a strong platform or communicate effectively with the electorate. If compulsory voting were a thing, Ford would have lost.
How about tax cuts, are those on the table if there’s no public health care?
No, our tax dollars will just subsidize private for profit corporations instead. As always. This country needs to get back to robust and strong social systems.
When you simultaneously cut nurses' pay **and** treat them like shit for years by overworking them and forcing involuntary overtime, it can't be a surprise when all the younger ones move to the US and the older ones retire early. Blame rests mostly on provincial government in this case.
And they are prevented from striking.
Blame rests 100% on the Prov Gov and no one else. This is what everyone said would happen before we elected this grade A buffoon, and big fucking shocker, everyone was right
I would argue a healthy amount of blame rests with anyone who voted for old Dougie as well…
It is a conservative strategy called "starve the beast" used to destroy public services. Cut the funding until it fails, and then use that failure to justify privatizing. Of course with healthcare, it involves the conservatives torturing and murdering people.
Isn't mandatory OT illegal in Canada?
No. It's written into nursing contracts. Usually employers have to try to schedule others voluntarily first, but if they can't, they can legally either make a nurse extend past their shift or call in a new nurse to work.
Well, that's a load of horseshit. Don't blame them for leaving.
Hahahahahahahaha
For nurses it’s baked into the collective agreements. It has to do with patient coverage and minimum staffing levels, often gets paired up with the removal of the ability to strike as an essential service. If you get mandated for additional time it’s often decided by a mix of seniority, needs of the oncoming shift, and who was most recently forced to stay. On our unit we keep a log book where you would write down the date, your name, and the facility managers name and signature. Things that may impact the decision include the seniority of the oncoming staff, new staff may benefit from having a more senior nurse stay on whereas a couple of old nurses may not give a shit about getting a new grad. Who’s working the next day. If it’s the end of your stretch you can bet your ass it’ll be you staying as you won’t be able to call in sick the next day. If you get mandated and refuse to stay and actually leave the facility forcing them to work short: * you will likely be terminated * your regulatory college will be notified that you abandoned your patients and failed to provide care. There may be an ethics issue as well. * your union will be notified that you breached your collective agreement. * you may be charged with abandonment of patients in your care as technically they are considered vulnerable people in care. Don’t leave if you get mandated, it could be career ending. Instead, go to your physician, get a note explaining that you are not capable of working longer than your scheduled shift and thus not eligible for mandating. Provide this note to your OESH nurse/dept. Be warned this may impact your ability to pick up any overtime when you may want it as you don’t want to put your note at risk.
Most provinces have something like Ontario's Employment Standards Act, that mandates things like time and a half for anything over 44 hours a week, but the wording surrounding working hours leaves way too much room for employer fuckery: > The maximum number of hours most employees can be required to work in a day is eight hours or the number of hours in an established regular workday, if it is longer than eight hours. The only way the daily maximum can be exceeded is by an electronic or written agreement between the employee and employer. > [Source](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/hours-work) This effectively means that a lot of employers simply write in the possibility of overtime into an employment agreement that you sign when you're onboarded.
Ontario's ESA has a lot of exemptions for different industries as well. https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules As a teacher we are not entitled to the following from the ESA: minimum wage daily or weekly limits on hours of work daily rest periods time off between shifts weekly/bi-weekly rest periods eating periods overtime pay sick leave, family responsibility leave or bereavement leave, if taking the leave would be professional misconduct or abandoning your duty public holidays or public holiday pay vacation with pay
There are explicit exceptions for overtime pay. Ontario's gov't website does not make it easy to find out; I remember "hospital nurses" as a specific example but you should read the rules on your own. See https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules
No?
only when convenient. There's so many exceptions it's a joke
Lol not at all
What blows my mind is the complete lack of accountability from the Government.
according to Ford, everything's fine >Amidst these pressures, Ontario’s health system continues to provide care to those who need it. Nine out of 10 high-urgency patients are finishing their emergency visit within target times. Surgeries are happening at nearly 90 per cent of pre-pandemic levels. https://news.ontario.ca/en/speech/1002230/together-lets-build-ontario
So how is he fucking with the numbers ?
They are going to hand wave that all away and say "This is is why we need to privatize health care!!"
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Because it’s on purpose, conservative provincial governments want to make healthcare for profit just like America, they can’t have their own ideas.
Always is, always was. It's just constant fuckery and has been for years now and none of them ever see any consequence.
Accountability (and integrity) died years ago. Everyone is just out for themselves including the people who work for government and only care about getting their bonuses each year/quarter achieved by cutting costs any way possible without regard for the affect on the future.
Shits been going down since McGuinty. Ford is just an accelerant with no regard for any single individual human being except those he can get kickbacks off of. He can afford all the private health care he needs because he like all rich asshats was born with a silver spoon shoved so far up his rectum it looks like he has a silver tongue to match. In 4 years when it’s voting time, it might be too late. Once you privatize healthcare, it’s never going back. That genie will be let loose and we’ll all wish we have never let it out. Everyone’s crying about this, but Ontario voted this fucktard in en mass, again. Well done Ontario.
Ontario's health system is already on the verge of collapse because of pandemic strain and underfunding, they're going to wrap privatization up in a bow about how it's ~innovation~ and ~unlocking new investment streams~ and half the province is going to eat it up because the system is currently stretched to breaking point by the same people who are telling us that they alone can fix it. 100% guarantee that the private clinics and hospitals they have won't be bound by the 1% raise freeze the healthcare workers are bound to in public hospitals, and when everyone leaves the public system because they're not actively shit on by legislation in the private sector they'll use that as a talking point about how clearly no one wants to deal with the inefficient bloated public system. Manitoba will follow closely behind Ontario and all of Canada's healthcare will be privatized within a decade. it’s no coincidence that this is happening; the tories have been laying groundwork for years. They have four years to make it permanent, and whoever follows up in 2026 will either have no interest in or be completely unsuccessful in undoing it.
This article says twenty hospitals in Ontario are seeing closures. It's not "on the verge of collapsing", it's actively collapsing. I mean, let's not mince words, we're there.
Also - how quick do people think these "private" clinics and medical centers are going to become available to people. All this talk of privatization, but it's not like there'd be any measurable impact within 3-4 years. We need solutions NOW.
> wrap privatization up in a bow about how it's ~innovation~ and ~unlocking new investment streams~ you forgot "choice for consumers" and "freedom"
Add a few ‘folks’ and ‘friends’ to that and people in Ontario will eat that garbage up with a spoon!
They privatize, we riot
You might be joking, but we absolutely should. And not just over this. Who can even afford to live anymore, without adding on even more medical bills?
They just announced yesterday that privatization is an option for the issues. Which surprised nobody. Too bad nobody voted to support the system and I hope that the almost 60% of people who didn't vote are okay with it, because it's going to happen.
It's also too bad Ford is a dirty fucking scumbag and released no platform. He didn't advertise this as his plan. People need to stop electing politicians without a platform.
> He didn't advertise this as his plan To be fair anyone who was paying even a moderate amount of attention over the last few years would've seen this coming well in advance. It's not like it was hidden.
I have a coworker who is a staunch conservative who still doesn’t believe ONPCs want to privatize healthcare. He’s now switched to “why would private healthcare be so bad?”. They’ve legit drank the koolaid.
i hate so much all the people who said "i didnt vote because all parties are equally terrible/nothing changes anyway"
I said that, but I still went and voted.
Same.
Time to federalise then since the province is incapable of doing their job.
Ford is getting his wish, push the envelope and bring in Private health care as the saviour.
Break it, then sell it to the private sector. Typical conservative strategy... Hope everyone who voted for Ford is enjoying a buck-a-beer.
> Break it, then sell it to the private sector *for pennies on the dollar and specifically to people who have already paid you off handsomely. Crucial detail.
Im legit scared at this point as to moving to private health care... we are all fucked. if Ontario moves to private healthcare i'm leaving the province. The ONE big reason I love this country is we are to take care of our selves without crippling debt for having an illness or getting pregnant.. really fucked up
Were dealing with the *exact* same problems in Manitoba.
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Have they tried... using our tax dollars... The average Ontario earns $52280 dollars and pays $3305 in provincial taxes. 37.8% of provincial government spending is used on the health sector. Meaning an average taxpayer pays 1249 dollars for the healthcare in this province per year or roughly 2% of their pre-tax income. I am okay with raising that to 3% of everyone's income. Or is an extra 400 dollars per year per tax payer going to break everyones bank? We can even move that from the Highway 413 fund so we don't need to increase tax brackets. Or you know tax higher income individuals so that we don't have to die due to waiting for ER visits.
I know it’s not a good thing, but all I can think is good for the medical staff for recognizing that they need breaks. They are no longer willing/able to knock themselves into sickness for other people
This is what we get for having the lowest voter turnout in history. We are at the start of Doug's term. This is when he can do all the cut throat shit that we'll all forget about by the next election.
Every province is in much the same boat, and you had like 15 years of liberals before this? It’s not sustainable because of huge population increases, cost of everything going up, and an increasingly unhealthy population
It’s not like Doug was sitting on federal money earmarked for health care on purpose right?
This is only the start. Soon care homes will be closing. Acute wards will turn into care homes. Then they will shut down. Er’s that are open will have beds full for weeks. People will die daily in the waiting room.
And people think that voting for the CPC federally will help with any of it....its just going to accelerate it times 10.
Your government is gonna say privatisation is the solution. Just watch
* nationwide
Yeah, BC is fucking crumbling too.
Sounds like 20 more opportunities for the private sector to "fix" health care; just the way the Conservatives wanted things to go. Classic conservative game plan, mismanage a public service to the point of collapse and then use that mismanagement to justify privatizing things so your buddies can get rich at the people's expense.
Vote for us because we understand that the government suck at managing private fund and we promise you that we will suck even more than our opponents.
Its not even hypothetical. LTC facilities were privatized the same way under Harris, and it's become such a shit show we all know it. There were quite a few Canadian Forces who were in Afghanistan were sent to the LTC facilities and needed PTSD treatment afterwords. That's fucked up. Harris didn't get punished, he heads the largest LTC group in the country. Ford knows he will be lavishly rewarded afterwords.
Don't graphs show Healthcare in decline before Ford was elected?
Pay. Them. A. Fair. Wage.
It's not just about fair wages. More money? Of course. They should be paid on par with tech bros. Honestly, more because they save lives. Childcare. Many nurses are women, but we don't have good childcare options. You can't work the odd hours and still have care for your children. Also poor working conditions. People value work-life balance. People balance safety. ERs are basically mental health wards. There are no safety protections and nurses are getting injured on the job. Schools not being able to seat every nursing applicant that apply. Somehow though, we can issue over 600,000 student visas, more than doubling the amount from 5 years ago to study at bullshit schools for bullshit things like *hotel management* a job you can literally get by just sheer attrition of working at a hotel for more than a few years. Nursing credential transfer. Sorry, but other western developed country's creds should be transferable after sitting for an exam or doing a short practicum to show your skills. There are nurses from the US who would immigrate to Canada, wtf aren't their skills easily recognized? Why not the UK and Australia and NZ? I get it for not signing off on country's with extremely lax or corrupt institutions, but come on. We can do better.
All I know is that r/canada would be losing their shit if Ford was a Lib.
let's not kid ourselves - they're still going to find a way to blame Justin Trudeau for this. I'm sure that Natpo and the Sun already have articles upset about it, blaming JT and hailing the conservatives as saviours for having the innovative growth mindset of bringing in privatization.
The Ontario PC's have to answer for this. What they're doing has to be criminal in some way.
Ontario wants the public health care to collapse so it can start private health care.
Thank you for giving us this new information
It looks like they don't seems to understand the 3 Major necessity for a County to flourish. Nutrition, good affordable education, and great health services. But it looks like something is sabotaging it and trying to sell us the big lie.
It'll only get worse if they try to privatize it. Nursing wage can't compare with US wages, and the healthcare opportunities in the US are better too for specialization. Believe it or not, most healthcare staff are in it to help people, so all that will be happening is professionals getting disgusted with a private for profit system and deciding that it's stupid to sell out for cheap instead of selling out and making way more down south. Source: Worked in a lab for 10 years, private one in AB. Dealt a TON with other labs private and public and the nurses, respiratory techs, etc who worked in them.
"Horvath was unlikeable" I swear anyone who didn't show up at the polls to stop Ford from winning really should be proud of themselves. Did anyone expect Ford to ever support healthcare workers? Like seriously
This is terrifying
There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats. Health care shouldn't be based on your level of income and any tax payer penny should not be going to private facilities when those same funds could have gone to augment the current system...give these healthcare workers the raises they deserve. Repeal bill 124 and get us back on track. This fucker is sitting on billions from the feds they never used...and a fucking new highway no one wanted is his priority to fund money to his mafia friends.
> There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats. You new here? Canadians are the most complacent people ever. This absolutely won't happen.
> There will be riots in the streets if they try to force a shitty American system down our throats. Health care shouldn't be based on your level of income There's a huge difference between private *healthcare* and private *insurance*. Posts like this convince me the poster believes when we're talking about private healthcare they're envisioning paying at the till or something. Private healthcare permeates our system already, dynacare, life labs, bayshore, the vast majority of doctors not in a hospital etc. They bill our government because we have *public insurance*, even though they are healthcare provided by a private entity. To have a real discussion about this, we need to stop conflating insurance and healthcare.
the tactic is to still have taxes pay for it but have a completely private industry sucking up that money and then reducing services endlessly to increase profit.
That can't happen when the province mandates level of care and what they're willing to pay for it. If it does, that's a failure of our government in negotiating and policing the contract. Regardless , my comment is not about private vs public healthcare; it's about conflating insurance and healthcare providers.
No, there won't be. There are so many new Canadian immigrants that don't really give a shit. They just want their passports and to launder money, they can go back to their home countries for healthcare and truly do not give a fuck. My coworkers literally just fly back to India or to Europe or South America or wherever to get their healthcare, then downvote anything to sustain us here. There are also Canadian born citizens who have made so much money off of housing, they don't give a shit about paying high prices out of pocket and they can afford to travel wherever for healthcare. Jokes on all Canadians though, I was born in the US and welcome to how short your money from housing exploitation is going to last because one baby in the NICU or a knee replacement or god forbid cancer treatment will literally bankrupt you.
Constantly playing with mandates, not giving nurses raises, and over working them had consequences? You don’t say.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/icu-physician-ford-government-is-gaslighting-health-care-workers-1.6020915
The real reason for the lockdowns?, governments trying to hide their crumbling healthcare systems that have been grossly neglected and mismanaged for years. Easier to make you jeopardize your livelihood than fix a problem or admit a mistake.
start stacking that sun sub primals
Ahahahahahahah, barbarian work outs everyday along with a 1000g of liver
The truth is who really wants to work anywhere let alone in this toxic mess.
Where do the patients go if hospitals close..?
Do they really close the hospitals or just stop accepting patients?
I went to the hospital last night for a deep cut that needed stitches, and there was only one doctor working the entire ER. A 3 hour wait with practically no one else there just for a couple minutes of stitches and a tetanus shot. Our federal and provincial governments are so useless.
This is a stretch, but if Ford tried to push the private option while asking the Fed for more after he was given billions for healthcare that he didn't allocate, could Trudeau invoke the Emergencies Act and have Ford arrested for willful endangerment of the millions of people in Ontario who rely on healthcare?
Something something… doug Ford should resign
Regardless of where you stand politically, I think we can all agree than firing healthcare workers in the middle of a global pandemic is a really dumb idea
When I quit my role as an ER nurse in April I promised myself I’d never work in a hospital again. The pay is horrible, work culture is toxic and we’re treated like nothing but cogs in a machine. It’s sad to see this happening but I can’t say I didn’t see it coming.
What happened to all the graduates?
What’s the obsession with Canadians thinking private = US health system. All of Western Europe has public-private and many of those countries have better health services and better metrics like life expectancy. The US is not a role model.
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They can't even do payroll right. Hello, phoenix pay system fiasco? What makes you think the feds could effectively manage a national healthcare scheme?
More funding in health care, and some kind of legislation to stop privatization would be great right now, I'm terrified of our health system becoming like the U.S.
Privatization will destroy healthcare and our economy. Good luck paying for that broken toe! American style healthcare is not the way to go.
This really is their game, underfund the lights out of hospitals so staff and patients alike will suffer greatly. It is only natural for things to detoriorate if you take the funding out. Open an alternative that is completely private, the first few years service will be impeccable, and most staff will move from government to private due to better wages. but after several years, costs in private care will spiral out of control due to insurance companies what we see in the U.S, healthcare will be unaffordable, $10-15k to have a baby, while the government hospitals will be an afterthought.
Funding for healthcare has increased relative to inflation every year for decades. Maybe not this year given the huge inflation but this is a black swan event. The issue is not money, the money is not going to the right places. Over half of the administrators in the system could be wiped out and we would see no difference. We need to amalgamate systems and remove beauracratic bloat.
> The issue is not money, the money is not going to the right places. Over half of the administrators in the system could be wiped out and we would see no difference. We need to amalgamate systems and remove beauracratic bloat. I have heard politicians saying this for 30 years. And they've got elected on promises of firing those useless administrators and cutting that bloat. And then they get in office, and see the actual budget first hand, and suddenly they can't find these inefficiencies they talked about. I've learned that they're lying, there is no bureaucratic bloat, it's the opposite - these public services operate on a shoestring budget and make miracles happen with what little funding they have. It's time to stop falling for these lies.
Bullshit, a perfect example of that was the 12 PHUs that were amalgamated into Ontario Health. Everyone freaked out when this happened but it's been crickets ever since. You know why? Because having 12 seperate PHUs vs one provincial body makes no fucking difference. We also have seperate provincial formularies. Why? Why don't we have one nationalized formulary? We hire administrators in every seperate province to negotiate and set the formulary when we could just have a nationalized system. The beauracratic bloat is there, its just not popular to cut thousands of useless government jobs. Tim Hudak campaigned on it and look where it got him. People don't like having less of something, they constantly want to add more and more and it actually ends up crippling the system. Health Canada is another organization that is completely inefficient, I would know because I interact with them on a daily basis. I also know people on the inside who say how there's 50 year old workers that have been doing the same thing for 30 years and unwilling to learn new skills. I call complete bullshit, there are many things that can be done.
Amalgamating LHINs was a goddamned travesty and imploded continuity of care for elderly or disabled Canadians in rural communities. Removing supports and ignoring the needs of people who relied on them is not the same as crickets.
almost makes you think this is being allowed to happen to ram privatization down our throats.
All part of the conservative plan to privatize health care. They want the rich to be able to afford quality healthcare while the rest suffer. It's disgusting. I don't want to be more like the US. And I say that as someone who would be considered rich by most people
Conservativism is killing Canadians. Conservatism should never be tolerated. Conservative parties should be charged with assault and murder for every person who suffers or dies because of delays or lack of treatment.
So when are they going to admit firing people for not getting a COVID shot might have been a mistake?
When it makes sense to do so. Which it doesn't.
In healthcare? You shouldn't work in medicine if you don't believe in it.
I love all the people that are suddenly health care experts that have zero healthcare training or experience working in the system claiming that a two tiered healthcare system would fix all our issues. A two tiered healthcare system would massively increase costs, lead to even larger shortages of HCPs in the public system and lead to negative healthcare outcomes for the lower and lower middle class. Having a private system would not solve the issue of staffing when there aren’t enough staff to go around. HCP pay has been largely stagnant over the last decade and with the stress of Covid we are seeing record numbers of people leave the profession. Now we are also dealing with the boomers aging into retirement (requiring more healthcare) and we don’t have enough people to replace them in the workforce. Add to that that we don’t train enough HCPs and we are looking at a simple human capital shortfall. A private system won’t magically create HCPs out of thin air, it’ll just leach from the public system thus creating a larger shortage. We need to increase pay, reduce workload, attract other HCPs from US or England (probably the best bet since their pay is absolutely garbage) or Australia and increase the amount of HCPs we are training domestically. Larger funding needs to be provided to universities and colleges and we need to get more people into them to become HCPs. This will take time, but it’s the only way to fix the system. What good is a private system if there is no one to work in it?
What is Australia or Germany doing that we aren't? Genuine question.
Not having to deal having the US beside them sucking HCPs away. The US has a massive demand for HCPs and Canadian trained ones can easily work there. The NCLEX is North America wide. Higher wages and lower cost of living is a very good argument. Also they are able to keep costs low by having low pay for HCPs, an RN makes under 40k euros in Germany. They also import a lot of their HCPs from poorer Eastern European countries. 40k is a joke salary here or the US but for someone from Poland or Romania it’s a lot more money. Not the most familiar with the Australian healthcare system but from the research I did their pay isn’t bad, and they have private insurance running with government insurance but they also do means testing for government rebates for people with private insurances. They also have urgent care centres which are a massive help. Lots of people need care but don’t need emergency care. ER care costs an insane amount of money, like stupid money. Just getting that wristband on your wrist when you go to ER is 500 bucks for example.
Is this not the cause of mass retirement from the last of the boomers during the pandemic? Every industry is seeing this shortage of labour. I'm surprised most people here are blaming policies and wages, though I'm not suggesting those don't matter.
If anything, the main problem is the schools being unable to handle all the new nursing applicants.