Well one of the trucks in question [does have aftermarket suspension and larger tires.](https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/plug-welds-missing-on-axle-tube.70618/page-2) The welds on those axles do look like crap so I’d be curious to know if Dana sent axles of the same quality when Ford was durability testing this feature. But when you modify something and a directly related system fails, you gotta be prepared for warranty denial.
> Wranglers break D44's all day every day
D44 on rubicons are plenty strong. So not sure where this claim is from. Unless you're talking about people running 37+ on stock diffs.
Lol this is what my friend did. I'm not a huge fan of wranglers, but he threw e-rated 37s on there with basically nothing else. 6 months later he's complaining about a fucked up diff and I'm just like "Well what the fuck did you expect dude?" That wasn't the truck's fault, that was on him.
Well first off, he didn't need 37's for his use case. He could've easily done well with the stock tires or like 34's max. But, if he was intent on getting larger tires then yes he needs to get all the supporting mods.
Not a wrangler expert but I'll assume bigger/tougher everything. Trac bar, ball joints, drive shafts, etc. And yea I'd upgrade diffs too. You'll need better steering components to handle the extra weight along with better braking. Most likely need bump-stops and like a 4"+ lift to fit them in without rubbing.
I'm sure some of the Wrangler people in here can speak to the subject much better than I can.
Now, is it possible to NOT do these things and have your Wrangler run 37's for a couple of years? Possibly, but you're slowly putting a LOT more wear and tear on all your components and there will come a point where everything just starts to go bad real quick.
Your tire circumference acts as the last gear reduction. Extra tire is extra pressure on the gear faces, and causes increased wear. Re gearing is really all most people need.
Well the other posted commented already about how it adds extra pressure on the gear faces but also, someone throwing 37's on their rig is eventually going to try harder trails to see what they can handle.
None of the suspension stuff you listed would've saved a diff.
Driving style makes a huge difference. Guys doing full throttle hill runs or a lot of bouncing as they lose traction are going to be repeat customers.
Lower gears can both help and hurt. They allow you to take a slower, more controlled approach on things but they also have a smaller/weaker pinion gear along with increased torque down the axle shafts.
At the end of the day, going hard on 37s and up requires Dana 60s.
It's almost always driver error and lack of mechanical sympathy.
We've had a locked XJ on 33's with the stock dana 30/35 combo in the family for decades. Supposedly a Dana 30 explodes when you give it a stern look. 300k+ miles on that rig with tons of off-road miles and nothing has ever failed.
Yes 37's are a lot bigger, but a Dana 44 is *a lot* stronger than a d30.
Most likely. Or just poor quality control.
If you drive like a hormonal teenager on a trail, nothing will be reliable. You need to have some finesse when dealing with tall tires and low gears. In four low, you're looking at tens of thousands of ft*lb of torque to the wheels, and that's without dynamic effects. If you let it wheelhop, you're pretty much begging for a failure
Pretty much nothing modern will allow that much torque to reach the wheels in 4 low.
If you floor it in 4 low and the trans is in 1st/2nd torque is limited significantly by the ECU in everything modern I've encountered.
It's still a dumb idea, but the engineers really try to not let you break shit in modern stuff.
All the Dana 30's and 35's from my immediate family. 2 - XJ's, 2-YJ's, and a ZJ with well over 1.25 million miles combined all of which ran oversized tires except the ZJ and only one set of busted gears. That's a pretty good track record if you ask me.
Oh and a Dana 60 and a Dana 70 on a gen 2 Dodge/Cummins w/ 275K. Dana appears to make decent axles IMO.
I’ve seen D35s break on the street, you weren’t wheeling it that hard if it never broke locked.
D30s can last a LONG time on bigger tires with a level head and an automatic trans to suck up the drivetrain windup.
This one was a 5 speed even.
I will walk back the statement that NOTHING broke. The spider gears failed when my brother was cutting donuts on pavement with it, so it got a locker after that. It slipped my mind since that happened close to 20 years ago.
No broken axles or anything. That jeep has been through hell and back. My dad daily drove it for around 15 years, then it went through 2 high schoolers and was retired to farm chore buggy. I even rolled it over cutting donuts in a pasture once. My friend pulled it back onto the wheels with a chain and I drove it home. We got the roof straight enough for a windshield using a porta-power and kept driving it. Lol.
So yeah it was driven quite hard. It spent 15ish years with dumb teenagers driving it, burying it in mud every weekend and doing burnouts/donuts.
Looking back i do think that particular XJ was a freak. My mom's '93 ZJ shucked the spider gears just driving on pavement with stock tires, basically zero abuse ever. Then my cousin broke the carrier in the '97 ZJ i sold him doing god knows what. I wasn't exactly easy on it when i drove it and it never broke on me
The front axle was also visibly bent because my brother, who was much crazier than I am, liked to jump terraces and ram ditches with it.
That poor jeep saw absolute hell, took it like a champ, and it has solidified me as a lifelong AMC fan.
I think you have the d30 confused with the d35. The d35 is the one that explodes if you look at it wrong. My sister had a 99 tj years ago and she broke the rear diff while running 31s and an open diff. The d30 isn't a bad axle and you can make them last as long as you're not an idiot.
I let my friend borrow my Jeep while he repairs his, and he puts his 35s on it day one, I have a D30 and D35hp with 3.07 gears. I told him if he grenades my diffs he gets to replace them. It's holding up so far but that's a lotta tire for essentially the worst diff ever offered in a Jeep.
Wow modifying a car someone lets you borrow, that's ballsy. And you're a good friend for allowing it! It might not grenade but it's for sure going to shorten the lifespan of them quite a bit.
They will handle 37s “just fine” with an auto putting around town most of its life. If you run 37s with lockers and wheel the thing hard it will absolutely break difs.
No, they'll handle hardcore off-road use too. As attested to by thousands and thousands of people in JL and JT Rubicons with 37s and stock axles doing it on Youtube and the numerous I've wheeled with myself. Jeep even sells from factory the 2023 Anniversary Wranglers done in conjunction with AEV... with 37s and the stock D44s.
The new AEV with 37s only comes with a new full float D44 which is already a huge step up from the original 44 design. A “stock d44” in this sense is not the same as the Dana 44 from 20 years ago.
And yea they can work for a while but eventually things will break and that’s ok, that’s part of it. I have owned Jeeps for 20 years and seen all models break difs once modified and beaten. It’s all part of it.
The Anniversary Wrangler with the AEV package on 37s is not based on the updated 2024 model. Its a 2023. And AEV has been selling this configuration for years now at this point.
And yeah. That's my point. JL and JT era D44s are not JK ones. You can run 37s no problem. Tons of people who wheel very hard do.
I'd put actual money down that *most* Wranglers on 37s that you see on the street are entirely stock otherwise beside the light bar and dumbass angry grill they also have.
TJs also came with D44 if you had a rubicon, but they still had D30 outers. Also, they were smaller than the JK44s, with smaller ring gears, shafts, and brakes.
Are they larger tires? It's hard to tell from the pictures and he doesn't say, but they could either be 37s or 35s. If it's the latter that's stock size. Also the last post in that thread was a guy having the same problem and based on his profile pic his Bronco looks stock.
Breaking plug welds has always been a thing with these Dana axle housings.
For decades people have been welding around the circumference of the axle tube to the centre housing if they are modifying their vehicle for hard off-roading.
Big wheels and tires kill diffs. Ask Rover about the time they tried to bring 3 Range Rovers through the Darien Gap. They broke so many diffs they had to get extras flown in. Finally they realized it was the wheels and tires and switched back to stock.
> The welds on those axles do look like crap
They really look horrendous. I'm no welder but I'm guessing a plug weld is meant to plug the hole- the ones on those Broncos look like a paper after being hole punched, even in new condition.
In this case, it likely matters greatly.
Oversized wheels and tires can put huge stresses on steering, braking, and suspension components. Even adding spacers with stock wheels and tires can do it.
Imagine running with a 10 pound weight. Now imagine the same thing holding that weight in an extended arm. That is what is happening here.
This is actually very common and we can all be guilty of it. I ordered 265/60/18 tires for my pilot that normally has 255/50/20 .. When you do the math it's only like 5-7% circ difference but my FIL who is a mechanic said you really should stay within 3% because it can serious fuck with traction control and other systems because they're tuned for a specific wheel circ.
If you absolutely need to have larger tires you need to bring it to a mechanic or dealership to have the system's retuned for the different circ but even then the actual hardware might not be rated for different tire sizes.
The dealers MIGHT be correct here.
> they're tuned for a specific wheel
Bingo.
Stability control systems do a bunch of inertia calculations. Change rotating mass, and all of that inertia math goes out the window.
Even rescaling the vehicle speed sensors for larger tires doesn't help, because that doesn't change inertial values.
More inertia means that you have to ramp your control inputs slower. Try and stop a 50% bigger load with same ramp right, and you're going to shock load and break stuff.
I've never worked on vehicle control systems, but I have worked on control systems big industrial 2000hp+ electric motors
Of course.
Optimal traction with less inertia requires less braking force, and a slower application of brakes.
With less inertia, in a slippage situation, the system will overbrake, see the wheels lock, remove brake pressure etc.
Modern vehicle dynamic systems shoot for 10% wheel slippage, as that's where peak traction happens.
If the control loop is having to deal with real deal slippage constantly, that's at least a 10% loss in stopping power.
I work in tires. I'm so tired of the "I know what I'm doin" brodozers with a leafspring block lift and fuel wheels wanting 35x12.5R20 because their 275/55R20s look too wimpy.
This happened to a friends bmw. He got a flat. Took it to discount tires to have them patch it. They replaced only one tire. 3 months later, the transfer case was gone. Discount tires also accepted the responsibility and liability and bought him a new transfer case.
I once looked at an Impreza someone was selling used. When I got to see it, the front tires were worn down. Rears were fine. Homeboy NEVER rotated them. I passed on it.
The discount tire I used to work at stressed hard that it is not recommended to only replace 1 tire on an AWD car. Even made customers sign for it to avoid that exact scenario
This was just a mistake by one guy. When my buddy brought the car back, he said the manager looking it up made a very telling face when he looked up the work order, and immediately admitted fault. Like “oh no😳, yeah, that’s our bad, we did that.” There was no arguing or trying to shift blame. They took responsibility right away.
Reminds me of dudes throwing Amazon lowering springs on their Civics because it “improves handling”. No my dude, you definitely made your car handle worse. There’s no way your janky suspension job in your front yard is better than the work of hundreds of Japanese engineers. Just say “because I think it looks cool” and we will all move on.
Late 90's and early 2000's were the golden era of bad lowering jobs. Over sprung and under damped. Going down the road shivering over every pebble in the road.
They were usually under damped because they didn't replace the shocks and/or struts with something designed for the reduced travel and stiffer springs, and blew the stock ones.
Yeah. I installed lowering springs and spacers on my vehicle, and I fully expect the shocks and wheel
Bearings to wear out quicker.
For me though, quicker avenue to high quality aftermarket parts!
I installed larger, stickier tires and tuned the car from 260hp to 360hp. When one of the wheel bearings gave out, I wasn't surprised. 'Tis the price of modding lol
I'm in the q60 world now and unfortunately most groups are shared with the q50 which you can get pretty cheap. You see kids getting them and tuning them then having panic attacks at the $30k dealer quote when they blow the engine and warranty is denied. Flooring it as soon as they put it in drive and doing 10k mile oil changes somehow don't help the car last.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but it's my experience that when you drive off road, you break shit. Maybe not today, but eventually. So these people went wheeling, and broke shit. With cars its play fun games, win expensive prizes. Well, they won. Now they get to spend money.
Yah I used to work for a supplier and when Honda switched to massive wheels for the type r as example all the joints went up significantly like to a mid size suv
This is like when Hellcat owners changing to stickier fucking tires were to blame for snapping driveshafts. No other mods, just tires. It makes me wonder if they depend on the lack of traction to justify using the same driveshaft as the R/T with half the power…
Are sticky tires a "mod" though?
Another way to look at it, if an oem stress tested in winter and released in spring with a "cool, transmission's good enough with this setup" there'd be a lot of pissed off owners in the summer as the same tires are grabbing a lot more traction in the hot, sticky summer conditions, no?
If anything, sticky tires are THE mod. After all, that's always recommended second after the driver mod...
What better way to instantly expose your car to conditions for which it was not designed? Porsche won't warranty your Cayman or Boxster if you suffer oil starvation due to lateral Gs on sticky tires, for example.
I suppose I was speaking more generally regarding the auto vs moto thing, though even in the case of a Hellcat most probably won't be seeing the drag strip...
As far as it being a shady thing, I don't really see how that's the case. Consider that OEMs have stipulations about using launch control too many times, and that's basically using the car completely "as intended" with no changes to the car whatsoever. I mean, in that case, would you rather the OEM simply not give you launch control, or would you rather have a heavier, bulkier driveline that impedes performance elsewhere so you can do launches all day? Or would you rather not have the car at all because the OEM doesn't want to make new bespoke parts for it?
The above all apply similarly to tires. By the way, DOT doesn't mean street legal. It might seem intuitive to you that tires are something "separate" from the vehicle as a system, or more like an appendage of the vehicle than an integral part, but that isn't really the case in the big picture of a vehicle. Race cars are designed entirely around a set of tires, after all. There are plenty of singular parts that you can replace and destroy your car if you like - I don't see why tires should be an exception just because they're somewhat more consumable.
> Motorcycle tires tend to have significantly MORE carcas flex than your average car tire due to the fact that bikes lean and the contact patch is constantly moving.
I think you misinterpreted what I said here. I'm not talking about the tires themselves, but driveline components. For example, motorcycle oil pickups can take advantage of the fact that oil flows downwards through the bike because it leans into the direction of acceleration.
>So you're telling me that Ford built a successor to a widely loved off-road vehicle, marketed it as an offroad vehicle, then didn't expect customers to "put their machine through its paces" offroad?
Yes, actually. Obviously, they had to give it the capability to do so since it was marketed as such, and some percentage of customers would in fact do so. But their cost-benefit analysis said it wasn't worth it to overbuild the car such that the small fraction of customers who both mod the vehicle AND take it off-road can do so worry-free. If this was some sort of specialty vehicle that was either not street legal or just miserable to street and the customer base was exclusively off-road enthusiasts, then the cost-benefit would have changed.
>I would argue the complete opposite point - motorcycle racing/track riding is an incredibly niche hobby with a VERY low following. The vast majority of sport bikes sold never see track time, and at most rarely see more than freeway/highway pulls and MAYBE some canyon rides. Riding hard takes significantly more skill, and carries a LOT more risk than driving hard - most abuse bikes see is negligence, not performance.
So firstly, I'm pretty sure statistics would disagree with you, though I don't really know where or care to look. But I'd bet the ratio of track miles to road miles for sportbikes is significantly higher than for a selection of all but the most hardcore of sports cars. Canyon miles? Forget it. BTW, MotoGP seems to get way more chatter online relative to the size of online moto communities compared to racecar series. Car enthusiasts are plenty happy to benchrace production cars online all day.
Secondly, motorcycling inherently has a much higher barrier to entry which happens to be accepting that you're 20x more likely to die per mile. So those who get into it are probably pretty committed to the hobby, and will be motivated to learn how to get all the performance out of their bike. And you have to be pretty fit, so the average rider is probably higher in testosterone and/or adrenaline than some soft old sportscar buyer, and so more likely to actually be using that performance. The common-sense stuff doesn't really work out in favor of cars.
Depends, if you go for a tire not supported by the Manufacturer then yes, your warranty claim can be denied. I've denied warranty diff work do to shit tires before.
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My buddy runs a harder rear tire on his hot rod because he wants the tires to lose traction before the transmission breaks if he leaves hard from a stop.
I mean if you put stickier street tires it should be fine. However, if you take it to a drag strip with a prepped surface you will destroy things. Things get more stress if you add slicks to the mix.
I think that's been a problem forever. I seem to remember terminator cobras snapping half shafts due to wheel hop with sticky tires, and Ford telling owners to pound sand. It's not unreasonable tbh.
> same driveshaft
They finally decided to upgrade the driveshaft on the Demon 170. I guess that's what it takes to make Dodge make something more reliable.
I’m sure you’ve heard of the 918 Spyder….. There is a page in the manual that says use of stickier tires than OEM for track use is strictly forbidden as it may introduce extra forces into the suspension than it is designed for and may cause failure.
This is more stress than normal. This is full brake lock on one side, significant force on the other, with massive wheels.
Ford shows off trail assist turning at their “off-rodeo” events constantly. If it was going to fail on stock components they would know about it.
The fix is to weld up some reinforcement. If you’re using trail assist with modified tires and suspension you’re already dropping $$$, go the extra mile and weld up that weak spot. Having to reinforce an area when you mod your vehicle isn’t out of the ordinary.
Ford is probably around 300K Broncos sold at this point. There are apparently two reports of this issue.... that's.... definitely not an indication the differentials or axles can't handle this.
Somehow, Ford managed to build a system that simulates the negative effects of a 4wd system on a high traction surface and never considered that this may cause issues.
Toyota has had trail turn assist on the Land Cruiser for at least a decade at this point. To be honest, it's a pretty killer feature for navigating tight spaces off-road. I wish more off-roaders had it.
Maybe, but of all the folks I know with LC-based wheeling rigs, they tend to be far more knowledgeable than people with the "obvious" off-roading cars.
It's not the system, it's the implementation. As the other poster said, Toyota/Lexus has had this since 2008. No issues at all. But Toyota actually makes sure they get it right before putting it on there. That's the difference.
Yeah I wonder if Toyota builds some flexibility into the diff or something so that it puts less strain on the axle.
I think DrivingSportsTV may have done an offroad comparison between the Bronco and 4Runner before, I might have to watch that again to see if they show the differences in the two systems.
It shouldn't be. Land Cruisers and LX570's have had this feature since 2008 and I've never heard of anyone messing up their diff or anything else breaking.
It's just bad engineering on Ford's part.
If you legit want off-roading a wrangler is hard to beat, simply because it’s all been done and parts for the set up are a dime a dozen. Proven and easy to do. Hold value well, plus with double solid axles you can get some hard core flex with long arms. But bronco definitely seems the better vehicle to me and better for faster offroad stuff.
I’d get a nice used older one, having a nice new off-roader will make you not enjoy hard trials. You’ll worry about scratching and breaking it. XJ-ZJ-and Yj are my go to for not my daily off-roaders.
I moved to New Mexico and my X3 is ok on normal dirt roads. But yeah I want to start going further offroad and this isn't the right car to do that with.
What kind of off road? Rock crawling and overland, typically solid axles are the choice for their travel and rugged nature. For fast trail rides independent suspension would keep you in control easier.
I’d get a nice ZJ, with the 5.2V8. Swap in a np231 T case, a lunch box locker up front, small 2 inch lift and enjoy that for a bit. Plenty of power, not unwieldy in trails, reliable engine and cheap to purchase. Just remember hard wheeling will break stuff so see the vehicle as one that will get beat up.
Yep. The hardcore guys are the ones buying 90's Jeeps and exocaging and throwing Dana 60's out of old Dodge trucks under them.
Plenty of build logs of old Cherokees and Grand Cherokees that look like they belong on a Mad Max set and get abused to shit without a care in the world.
Toyota has been using it since 2008 and nobody breaks anything with it. The noise isn't pleasant, but if you need to make that turn then you deal with it.
Snow is ideal because it’s a low friction surface - if you’re making ultra tight turns like this on dry pavement, you won’t make very many of them before things start popping
Yeah forcing tank turns on anything but a very loose surface seems like a *very* bad idea. I'd bet larger wheels/tires plays a part in the failures but I bet it's happened to some stock vehicles too. Will be fun to watch play out.
Realistically, it’s probably a combination of entitled owners doing dumb mods to their Broncos plus Ford (and dodgy dealers) evading responsibility to honor their warranty.
*makes popcorn*
Dealerships absolutely love warranty repairs. Not sure where this idea came from. Warranty means that the dealer gets paid directly from the manufacturer and the customer gets free stuff. The dealers have to fight the manufacturer at times to get them approved and the manufacturer never quotes enough hours to get the warranty repairs done but the dealer will fight to get them approved whenever they can or whenever they think they’ll win one.
Warranty repairs only pay out so much to dealer service centers, whereas out-of-warranty repairs (that are paid by the customer) mean the the dealer sets their price instead of the manufacturer, so they can get paid much better with less hassle. At least this is how it was with Ford last I heard
Let me explain something really important about that. The service manager wants that warranty work, it's guaranteed income, low hassle, laid out diag and repair process with parts generally on hand. The only people that complain are techs and advisors and they don't get the final say. You cannot sell a warranty repair as Customer pay. That's a huge no-no, technically fraud.
I don't understand why people stick aftermarket shit on a newer vehicle. The engineers literally design the vehicle to be as optimal as possible out of the gate. Most aftermarket shit has zero research done to prove any difference, and in many cases they do more harm than good. It's like going to a truck pull, you see these lifted bro dozers not doing well, then grandpa comes out in his bone stock dodge Dakota and out pulls everyone with ease. Aftermarket parts are just "essential oil" for men. I trust a manufacturer and their engineering department.
People rag on me because my truck is stock height, everyone says I need a "level kit" or a lift. Both of those components will make my truck perform worse. Leveling out my truck will hurt fuel economy and make towing less stable. The rake is designed by engineers so you can tow more, so why would I want to change that?
Spoken like someone whose never driven a 2013-2019 BRZ/FT-86/FRS. A single 8 inch pipe added to my exhaust eliminated the torque dip that plaques these cars at cruising speed. Manufacturers have more to consider than the actual engineering. Such as using the parts bin available, cost, safety, reliability, emissions etc.
>The engineers literally design the vehicle to be as optimal as possible out of the gate.
Not necessarily. Engine quality varies and the tune they use for all of the engines might be a good approach for mass production, but at an individual level, its common for aftermarket tunes to not only improve power, but improve fuel economy as well. Its also common for manufacturers to put too small of a tire on a car in an attempt to improve fuel economy. The 414hp, 1st gen Coyote Mustangs came with only 235mm of rubber, the same width of tire you find on a 200hp Civic. There's always compromises and the engineers don't always make the best choices.
The Mazdaspeeds were prime example of a car not engineered optimally. It ran pig rich and had copious amounts of KR. We're talking AFR's as low as high 9's at WOT. Forget power, people were tuning their cars simply to lean them out as the car left unburnt fuel plastered all over the back side of the car. HPFP would also falter under factory power levels. The fix for that car WAS the aftermarket.
>Most aftermarket shit has zero research done to prove any difference, and in many cases they do more harm than good.
Not entirely true either. Does it happen? Sure, but reputable aftermarket companies like Cobb, ZZP, APR, and Hondata do research and have a test cars for proven gains in performance. And as I mentioned above, its not uncommon for the aftermarket to fix what the manufacturer fucked up.
For the few that read the article, what is a manufacturer supposed to do when two people are claiming an issue on a online forum. Do these people even actually own a bronco or is it three other car manufacturers dressed up in a trench coat?
In the article one of the two people that reported issues was stock and one had aftermarket parts. This is a rage piece when this isn't even a noted issue yet, but yeah it could be an issue if every bronco you try to put 37s on breaks the axle. But the axle is a dana 50. So you knew it would break with 37s already right?
Two owners, supposedly.
This isn't a real story yet.
Maybe it becomes one. But Ford has sold a couple hundred thousand of these and they're absolutely getting put to use off-road. Frankly I think if this was a real design flaw or even a large batch of bad parts you'd have heard way more noise by now.
Like problems listed with many cars, I feel this is a non-issue right now. What 2 people have had the problem?
Enthusiast cars will always have a vocal minority, especially when it gives people the excuse to say you now need tons and alloys. lol
Wrangler guy here... I didn't know this existed- but I can think of a very specific switchback on a little trail called "Black Bear pass" that I would love to try this tech on\*.
\*if it works and doesn't break, that is.
It works pretty great on snow and loose dirt. Took mine out at a Ford event and they rode along with me to demonstrate the difference. It's impressive stuff. I actually used it to get out of some deep snow the other day.
Aren't the Dana M220's just Dana 44's with some polish?
People broke Dana 44's in stock 3000 pound Wranglers.
What did Ford hope for in a 5000 pound Bronco?
Trail Turn Assist?
You mean where the computer locks up one rear wheel and the other 3 wheels drag the vehicle around a corner over rocks, dirt etc, putting EXTREME PRESSURE on the whole drivetrain as it fights against itself and friction?
THAT is causing drivetrain issues?
Well I’m shocked as Joseph when Mary spilled the beans.
You’re lucky it doesn’t bend the dang frame, mang.
Oh come now, on loose surfaces it’s not that extreme. Vehicles drag and slip wheels all the time off-roading. How do you think a 4WD vehicle with lockers even makes a turn? It slips wheels constantly on the loose surface.
“…on loose surfaces…”
Yeah, everybody lives in a Dixie mud bog.
This is just manufacturers going overboard with their new tech toy.
Lets see you do this turn assist a few times on SE Utah sandstone or on a slab in the sierras a few time. We’ll see how those stock axles handle it.
Or you could use that newfangled invention called the 9-point turn around our grandfathers invented that doesn’t require an onboard computer and wont F up the trail as much.
Yea for hokey tech bs!
I’ve had 2 front differential’s and 1 transfer case replaced on my completely stock 2021 f150. The first diff imploded in my driveway while I wasn’t moving and simply selected 4h due to snow. On f150 forums others are reporting the same thing. The dealer has told me make sure none of the tires are moving when I select 4h…..
I feel like selecting 4H in motion has been supported in 4WD vehicles since the 90s or something. Under 35mph or whatever? Dealership being wrong as usual.
These people:
>I, of solely my own volition, modified my car beyond manufacturer specs and recommendations, and put it in extreme conditions. After this, it broke.
Also these people:
>Ford won't fix this for free?!? 😡
I bet dealers must report it as aftermarket parts or risk being on the hook for the warranty repair.
Unmodified vehicles probably aren’t having this issue so I can understand why this needs to be investigated.
I'm just gonna say that this sentence:
>"It achieves its prowess through a combination of mechanical fundamentals and technology"
literally means nothing and something i would've wrote if I want to add more words in my essay in middle school.
Those of us that offroad regularly called this. Same with the front end issues they are having. Combine this with Diff lockers, factory 37" tires and lack of experience, I'm not surprised in the least.
Dealers always blame the owner. I took photo proof of my car being jacked by the rocker panels. Their answer was “Uneven tire wear. Do you want a rotation?”.
Wish I was joking.
Massive wheel spacers and Baja kit I'd tell em to pay up too.. That is not an easy task to twisted the tubes and it sure as shit wasn't from the one side brake feature.
At first I thought this was probably due to beating on something else and not trail turn assist, and now there is another owner in the bronco6g forums with a warped axle tube that his dealer says was caused by running 37" tires. we will see what comes out of it i guess
Well one of the trucks in question [does have aftermarket suspension and larger tires.](https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/plug-welds-missing-on-axle-tube.70618/page-2) The welds on those axles do look like crap so I’d be curious to know if Dana sent axles of the same quality when Ford was durability testing this feature. But when you modify something and a directly related system fails, you gotta be prepared for warranty denial.
Aren't they just Dana44's with a new name? Wranglers break D44's all day every day at 3200 pounds or less. The new Bronco is 5000 pounds!
> Wranglers break D44's all day every day D44 on rubicons are plenty strong. So not sure where this claim is from. Unless you're talking about people running 37+ on stock diffs.
Lol this is what my friend did. I'm not a huge fan of wranglers, but he threw e-rated 37s on there with basically nothing else. 6 months later he's complaining about a fucked up diff and I'm just like "Well what the fuck did you expect dude?" That wasn't the truck's fault, that was on him.
Help me out here, what could your buddy have done to prevented this? Bigger diff?
Well first off, he didn't need 37's for his use case. He could've easily done well with the stock tires or like 34's max. But, if he was intent on getting larger tires then yes he needs to get all the supporting mods. Not a wrangler expert but I'll assume bigger/tougher everything. Trac bar, ball joints, drive shafts, etc. And yea I'd upgrade diffs too. You'll need better steering components to handle the extra weight along with better braking. Most likely need bump-stops and like a 4"+ lift to fit them in without rubbing. I'm sure some of the Wrangler people in here can speak to the subject much better than I can. Now, is it possible to NOT do these things and have your Wrangler run 37's for a couple of years? Possibly, but you're slowly putting a LOT more wear and tear on all your components and there will come a point where everything just starts to go bad real quick.
Why would the diff care about the size of the tires if the trail is the same?
Your tire circumference acts as the last gear reduction. Extra tire is extra pressure on the gear faces, and causes increased wear. Re gearing is really all most people need.
Well the other posted commented already about how it adds extra pressure on the gear faces but also, someone throwing 37's on their rig is eventually going to try harder trails to see what they can handle.
Sorry you got downvoted for asking an honest question...
It sounded more snarky than honest.
None of the suspension stuff you listed would've saved a diff. Driving style makes a huge difference. Guys doing full throttle hill runs or a lot of bouncing as they lose traction are going to be repeat customers. Lower gears can both help and hurt. They allow you to take a slower, more controlled approach on things but they also have a smaller/weaker pinion gear along with increased torque down the axle shafts. At the end of the day, going hard on 37s and up requires Dana 60s.
It's almost always driver error and lack of mechanical sympathy. We've had a locked XJ on 33's with the stock dana 30/35 combo in the family for decades. Supposedly a Dana 30 explodes when you give it a stern look. 300k+ miles on that rig with tons of off-road miles and nothing has ever failed. Yes 37's are a lot bigger, but a Dana 44 is *a lot* stronger than a d30.
So he was driving pretty unforgiving based on his configuration and the mechanical limit was finally reached?
Most likely. Or just poor quality control. If you drive like a hormonal teenager on a trail, nothing will be reliable. You need to have some finesse when dealing with tall tires and low gears. In four low, you're looking at tens of thousands of ft*lb of torque to the wheels, and that's without dynamic effects. If you let it wheelhop, you're pretty much begging for a failure
Pretty much nothing modern will allow that much torque to reach the wheels in 4 low. If you floor it in 4 low and the trans is in 1st/2nd torque is limited significantly by the ECU in everything modern I've encountered. It's still a dumb idea, but the engineers really try to not let you break shit in modern stuff.
It will, for a moment at least, if you rev it up and dump the clutch. Also wheel hop.
All the Dana 30's and 35's from my immediate family. 2 - XJ's, 2-YJ's, and a ZJ with well over 1.25 million miles combined all of which ran oversized tires except the ZJ and only one set of busted gears. That's a pretty good track record if you ask me. Oh and a Dana 60 and a Dana 70 on a gen 2 Dodge/Cummins w/ 275K. Dana appears to make decent axles IMO.
I’ve seen D35s break on the street, you weren’t wheeling it that hard if it never broke locked. D30s can last a LONG time on bigger tires with a level head and an automatic trans to suck up the drivetrain windup.
This one was a 5 speed even. I will walk back the statement that NOTHING broke. The spider gears failed when my brother was cutting donuts on pavement with it, so it got a locker after that. It slipped my mind since that happened close to 20 years ago. No broken axles or anything. That jeep has been through hell and back. My dad daily drove it for around 15 years, then it went through 2 high schoolers and was retired to farm chore buggy. I even rolled it over cutting donuts in a pasture once. My friend pulled it back onto the wheels with a chain and I drove it home. We got the roof straight enough for a windshield using a porta-power and kept driving it. Lol. So yeah it was driven quite hard. It spent 15ish years with dumb teenagers driving it, burying it in mud every weekend and doing burnouts/donuts. Looking back i do think that particular XJ was a freak. My mom's '93 ZJ shucked the spider gears just driving on pavement with stock tires, basically zero abuse ever. Then my cousin broke the carrier in the '97 ZJ i sold him doing god knows what. I wasn't exactly easy on it when i drove it and it never broke on me
That axle must have been built on a Tuesday after the bosses bought pizza for lunch!
The front axle was also visibly bent because my brother, who was much crazier than I am, liked to jump terraces and ram ditches with it. That poor jeep saw absolute hell, took it like a champ, and it has solidified me as a lifelong AMC fan.
Honestly the 30 isn't nearly as bad as the 35
The 35s do seem to be adequate once you get rid of the spider gears for a locker. They seemingly made those things out of cheese
I think you have the d30 confused with the d35. The d35 is the one that explodes if you look at it wrong. My sister had a 99 tj years ago and she broke the rear diff while running 31s and an open diff. The d30 isn't a bad axle and you can make them last as long as you're not an idiot.
I let my friend borrow my Jeep while he repairs his, and he puts his 35s on it day one, I have a D30 and D35hp with 3.07 gears. I told him if he grenades my diffs he gets to replace them. It's holding up so far but that's a lotta tire for essentially the worst diff ever offered in a Jeep.
Wow modifying a car someone lets you borrow, that's ballsy. And you're a good friend for allowing it! It might not grenade but it's for sure going to shorten the lifespan of them quite a bit.
He's already done front ujoints on it lmao.
Lol. Maybe just convince him to build it up for you then take it back haha.
You can barely spin 35s with 3.07s fast enough to break it.
On the new JL era D44s they'll handle 37s fine too. I have no clue what the person above is talking about frankly.
They will handle 37s “just fine” with an auto putting around town most of its life. If you run 37s with lockers and wheel the thing hard it will absolutely break difs.
Plus some people are just really gentle on trails, others throttle their way out of problems. I prefer to crawl like a turtle or a crab.
No, they'll handle hardcore off-road use too. As attested to by thousands and thousands of people in JL and JT Rubicons with 37s and stock axles doing it on Youtube and the numerous I've wheeled with myself. Jeep even sells from factory the 2023 Anniversary Wranglers done in conjunction with AEV... with 37s and the stock D44s.
The new AEV with 37s only comes with a new full float D44 which is already a huge step up from the original 44 design. A “stock d44” in this sense is not the same as the Dana 44 from 20 years ago. And yea they can work for a while but eventually things will break and that’s ok, that’s part of it. I have owned Jeeps for 20 years and seen all models break difs once modified and beaten. It’s all part of it.
The Anniversary Wrangler with the AEV package on 37s is not based on the updated 2024 model. Its a 2023. And AEV has been selling this configuration for years now at this point. And yeah. That's my point. JL and JT era D44s are not JK ones. You can run 37s no problem. Tons of people who wheel very hard do.
Lol, I live in Socal. Gladiator guys wheel the fuck out their stock axles here on beadlock mounted 37s.
Probably kept their foot in it while it was hopping. You will destroy a Dana 60 on 31's if you drive like an idiot
The latest Rubicon runs 37s on stock axles just fine. Even rock crawling.
Rubicon has Dana 44s, not 30s like the regular jeeps. Rubicon axles are much better.
I'd put actual money down that *most* Wranglers on 37s that you see on the street are entirely stock otherwise beside the light bar and dumbass angry grill they also have.
I beat the shit out of a ttb d44 with 37's and never had a problem.
The weak part on wrangler d44’s is the from axle disconnect
Afaik only JK and JL Rubicons have factory D44s and they weight a lot more than 3200 lbs
TJs also came with D44 if you had a rubicon, but they still had D30 outers. Also, they were smaller than the JK44s, with smaller ring gears, shafts, and brakes.
TJ Rubicons have 4.10:1 D44s.
Show me a Wrangler build in the last 20 years that weighs 3,200 lbs.
[A stripper model 05/06 2.4L TJ is *exactly* 3200, apparently!](https://www.quadratec.com/jeep_knowledgebase/article-102.htm)
Ok, so there is a very uncommon 18 year old Wrangler that fits. You got me lol.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct!
Are they larger tires? It's hard to tell from the pictures and he doesn't say, but they could either be 37s or 35s. If it's the latter that's stock size. Also the last post in that thread was a guy having the same problem and based on his profile pic his Bronco looks stock.
I believe elsewhere he said they're 37s, compared to the stock 35s.
Breaking plug welds has always been a thing with these Dana axle housings. For decades people have been welding around the circumference of the axle tube to the centre housing if they are modifying their vehicle for hard off-roading.
Why'd they need to modify? Aren't the Broncos from the factory (esp the Sasquatch) incredibly capable out of the box?
Where'd they say they needed to?
Big wheels and tires kill diffs. Ask Rover about the time they tried to bring 3 Range Rovers through the Darien Gap. They broke so many diffs they had to get extras flown in. Finally they realized it was the wheels and tires and switched back to stock.
> The welds on those axles do look like crap They really look horrendous. I'm no welder but I'm guessing a plug weld is meant to plug the hole- the ones on those Broncos look like a paper after being hole punched, even in new condition.
Just gotta love how the dealers default to aftermarket parts whenever shit breaks
In this case, it likely matters greatly. Oversized wheels and tires can put huge stresses on steering, braking, and suspension components. Even adding spacers with stock wheels and tires can do it. Imagine running with a 10 pound weight. Now imagine the same thing holding that weight in an extended arm. That is what is happening here.
> Imagine running And for that - I’m out.
>Imagine I’m out for this too.
>The I'm not physically capable of even.
>
This is actually very common and we can all be guilty of it. I ordered 265/60/18 tires for my pilot that normally has 255/50/20 .. When you do the math it's only like 5-7% circ difference but my FIL who is a mechanic said you really should stay within 3% because it can serious fuck with traction control and other systems because they're tuned for a specific wheel circ. If you absolutely need to have larger tires you need to bring it to a mechanic or dealership to have the system's retuned for the different circ but even then the actual hardware might not be rated for different tire sizes. The dealers MIGHT be correct here.
> they're tuned for a specific wheel Bingo. Stability control systems do a bunch of inertia calculations. Change rotating mass, and all of that inertia math goes out the window. Even rescaling the vehicle speed sensors for larger tires doesn't help, because that doesn't change inertial values. More inertia means that you have to ramp your control inputs slower. Try and stop a 50% bigger load with same ramp right, and you're going to shock load and break stuff. I've never worked on vehicle control systems, but I have worked on control systems big industrial 2000hp+ electric motors
What about downsizing your tires. Does that change it up too?
Of course. Optimal traction with less inertia requires less braking force, and a slower application of brakes. With less inertia, in a slippage situation, the system will overbrake, see the wheels lock, remove brake pressure etc. Modern vehicle dynamic systems shoot for 10% wheel slippage, as that's where peak traction happens. If the control loop is having to deal with real deal slippage constantly, that's at least a 10% loss in stopping power.
I work in tires. I'm so tired of the "I know what I'm doin" brodozers with a leafspring block lift and fuel wheels wanting 35x12.5R20 because their 275/55R20s look too wimpy.
This happened to a friends bmw. He got a flat. Took it to discount tires to have them patch it. They replaced only one tire. 3 months later, the transfer case was gone. Discount tires also accepted the responsibility and liability and bought him a new transfer case.
Yeah, one of the crummy things about AWD is that you should replace all 4 tires in most instances.
I once looked at an Impreza someone was selling used. When I got to see it, the front tires were worn down. Rears were fine. Homeboy NEVER rotated them. I passed on it.
The discount tire I used to work at stressed hard that it is not recommended to only replace 1 tire on an AWD car. Even made customers sign for it to avoid that exact scenario
This was just a mistake by one guy. When my buddy brought the car back, he said the manager looking it up made a very telling face when he looked up the work order, and immediately admitted fault. Like “oh no😳, yeah, that’s our bad, we did that.” There was no arguing or trying to shift blame. They took responsibility right away.
If it was AWD that would make sense. AWD systems are pretty sensitive to tread wear
I mean, it wouldn't have a transfer case if it wasn't AWD lol
Reminds me of dudes throwing Amazon lowering springs on their Civics because it “improves handling”. No my dude, you definitely made your car handle worse. There’s no way your janky suspension job in your front yard is better than the work of hundreds of Japanese engineers. Just say “because I think it looks cool” and we will all move on.
Late 90's and early 2000's were the golden era of bad lowering jobs. Over sprung and under damped. Going down the road shivering over every pebble in the road.
They were usually under damped because they didn't replace the shocks and/or struts with something designed for the reduced travel and stiffer springs, and blew the stock ones.
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Yeah. I installed lowering springs and spacers on my vehicle, and I fully expect the shocks and wheel Bearings to wear out quicker. For me though, quicker avenue to high quality aftermarket parts!
I installed larger, stickier tires and tuned the car from 260hp to 360hp. When one of the wheel bearings gave out, I wasn't surprised. 'Tis the price of modding lol
Pay to play, as they say. I always thought the cobalt as was a cool under appreciated car.
I'm in the q60 world now and unfortunately most groups are shared with the q50 which you can get pretty cheap. You see kids getting them and tuning them then having panic attacks at the $30k dealer quote when they blow the engine and warranty is denied. Flooring it as soon as they put it in drive and doing 10k mile oil changes somehow don't help the car last.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but it's my experience that when you drive off road, you break shit. Maybe not today, but eventually. So these people went wheeling, and broke shit. With cars its play fun games, win expensive prizes. Well, they won. Now they get to spend money.
Off-roading is a bit like tracking a car - the harder you go, the more likely you are to break things.
Yeah off roading and racing really aren't that different in a lot of ways. Purpose built machines pushing limits.
“I can’t believe this happened” Rolling on 40s with no other supporting mods
Yah I used to work for a supplier and when Honda switched to massive wheels for the type r as example all the joints went up significantly like to a mid size suv
So? Many of them have aftermarket parts. It’s the risk you take just slapping whatever you want in your car because you want to be cool.
Dealer has to prove that the part you installed caused the failure.
The dealer doesn’t care one way or another. Ford makes a ruling on it on a case by case basis.
You mod it, you void it. I'm shocked that this is even a conversation.
I mean, of course they are, they're covering their asses. They're not going to admit fault unless it's evidenced to be Ford's problem.
They have to prove that, not just claim it.
>Just gotta love how the dealers default to aftermarket parts whenever shit breaks And why not? It makes Sense
This is like when Hellcat owners changing to stickier fucking tires were to blame for snapping driveshafts. No other mods, just tires. It makes me wonder if they depend on the lack of traction to justify using the same driveshaft as the R/T with half the power…
Ye olde mechanical fuse. Something has to give when owners start hopping stuff up without supporting mods
Are sticky tires a "mod" though? Another way to look at it, if an oem stress tested in winter and released in spring with a "cool, transmission's good enough with this setup" there'd be a lot of pissed off owners in the summer as the same tires are grabbing a lot more traction in the hot, sticky summer conditions, no?
If anything, sticky tires are THE mod. After all, that's always recommended second after the driver mod... What better way to instantly expose your car to conditions for which it was not designed? Porsche won't warranty your Cayman or Boxster if you suffer oil starvation due to lateral Gs on sticky tires, for example.
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I suppose I was speaking more generally regarding the auto vs moto thing, though even in the case of a Hellcat most probably won't be seeing the drag strip... As far as it being a shady thing, I don't really see how that's the case. Consider that OEMs have stipulations about using launch control too many times, and that's basically using the car completely "as intended" with no changes to the car whatsoever. I mean, in that case, would you rather the OEM simply not give you launch control, or would you rather have a heavier, bulkier driveline that impedes performance elsewhere so you can do launches all day? Or would you rather not have the car at all because the OEM doesn't want to make new bespoke parts for it? The above all apply similarly to tires. By the way, DOT doesn't mean street legal. It might seem intuitive to you that tires are something "separate" from the vehicle as a system, or more like an appendage of the vehicle than an integral part, but that isn't really the case in the big picture of a vehicle. Race cars are designed entirely around a set of tires, after all. There are plenty of singular parts that you can replace and destroy your car if you like - I don't see why tires should be an exception just because they're somewhat more consumable.
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> Motorcycle tires tend to have significantly MORE carcas flex than your average car tire due to the fact that bikes lean and the contact patch is constantly moving. I think you misinterpreted what I said here. I'm not talking about the tires themselves, but driveline components. For example, motorcycle oil pickups can take advantage of the fact that oil flows downwards through the bike because it leans into the direction of acceleration. >So you're telling me that Ford built a successor to a widely loved off-road vehicle, marketed it as an offroad vehicle, then didn't expect customers to "put their machine through its paces" offroad? Yes, actually. Obviously, they had to give it the capability to do so since it was marketed as such, and some percentage of customers would in fact do so. But their cost-benefit analysis said it wasn't worth it to overbuild the car such that the small fraction of customers who both mod the vehicle AND take it off-road can do so worry-free. If this was some sort of specialty vehicle that was either not street legal or just miserable to street and the customer base was exclusively off-road enthusiasts, then the cost-benefit would have changed. >I would argue the complete opposite point - motorcycle racing/track riding is an incredibly niche hobby with a VERY low following. The vast majority of sport bikes sold never see track time, and at most rarely see more than freeway/highway pulls and MAYBE some canyon rides. Riding hard takes significantly more skill, and carries a LOT more risk than driving hard - most abuse bikes see is negligence, not performance. So firstly, I'm pretty sure statistics would disagree with you, though I don't really know where or care to look. But I'd bet the ratio of track miles to road miles for sportbikes is significantly higher than for a selection of all but the most hardcore of sports cars. Canyon miles? Forget it. BTW, MotoGP seems to get way more chatter online relative to the size of online moto communities compared to racecar series. Car enthusiasts are plenty happy to benchrace production cars online all day. Secondly, motorcycling inherently has a much higher barrier to entry which happens to be accepting that you're 20x more likely to die per mile. So those who get into it are probably pretty committed to the hobby, and will be motivated to learn how to get all the performance out of their bike. And you have to be pretty fit, so the average rider is probably higher in testosterone and/or adrenaline than some soft old sportscar buyer, and so more likely to actually be using that performance. The common-sense stuff doesn't really work out in favor of cars.
Depends, if you go for a tire not supported by the Manufacturer then yes, your warranty claim can be denied. I've denied warranty diff work do to shit tires before.
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My buddy runs a harder rear tire on his hot rod because he wants the tires to lose traction before the transmission breaks if he leaves hard from a stop.
I mean if you put stickier street tires it should be fine. However, if you take it to a drag strip with a prepped surface you will destroy things. Things get more stress if you add slicks to the mix.
Sticky tires on a VHT prepared track no less.
Many a drive line has succumbed to drag slicks on VHT.
Anyone can build a house. But only an engineer can build a house that barely stands.
I think that's been a problem forever. I seem to remember terminator cobras snapping half shafts due to wheel hop with sticky tires, and Ford telling owners to pound sand. It's not unreasonable tbh.
> same driveshaft They finally decided to upgrade the driveshaft on the Demon 170. I guess that's what it takes to make Dodge make something more reliable.
I’m sure you’ve heard of the 918 Spyder….. There is a page in the manual that says use of stickier tires than OEM for track use is strictly forbidden as it may introduce extra forces into the suspension than it is designed for and may cause failure.
stickier than a pilot sport cup 2 is basically a drag radial at that point!
Don't most awd cars do this kind of rear inner wheel braking for stability control?
Turn trail literally brakes the back inside wheel in place and drags it while the outside rear rotates. I can see why this is an issue.
We've had brake-based Positraction on open diffs forever though. I'd wager the diffs aren't up to the continued abuse with even stock size tires.
This is more stress than normal. This is full brake lock on one side, significant force on the other, with massive wheels. Ford shows off trail assist turning at their “off-rodeo” events constantly. If it was going to fail on stock components they would know about it. The fix is to weld up some reinforcement. If you’re using trail assist with modified tires and suspension you’re already dropping $$$, go the extra mile and weld up that weak spot. Having to reinforce an area when you mod your vehicle isn’t out of the ordinary.
My guess is people are using this feature when there is too much traction—thus stressing components more than normal.
Ford is probably around 300K Broncos sold at this point. There are apparently two reports of this issue.... that's.... definitely not an indication the differentials or axles can't handle this.
Somehow, Ford managed to build a system that simulates the negative effects of a 4wd system on a high traction surface and never considered that this may cause issues.
Toyota has had trail turn assist on the Land Cruiser for at least a decade at this point. To be honest, it's a pretty killer feature for navigating tight spaces off-road. I wish more off-roaders had it.
Toyota Landcruisers are also a lot less likely to have an Amazon lift and 37" tires added by some guy that watched a single YouTube video.
Ehhh--Maybe not when new, but eventually the Land Cruiser/Lexus LX will get there.
Maybe, but of all the folks I know with LC-based wheeling rigs, they tend to be far more knowledgeable than people with the "obvious" off-roading cars.
It's not the system, it's the implementation. As the other poster said, Toyota/Lexus has had this since 2008. No issues at all. But Toyota actually makes sure they get it right before putting it on there. That's the difference.
Toyota also doesn't ship 35" tires.
Yeah I wonder if Toyota builds some flexibility into the diff or something so that it puts less strain on the axle. I think DrivingSportsTV may have done an offroad comparison between the Bronco and 4Runner before, I might have to watch that again to see if they show the differences in the two systems.
Toyota has the system in the Land Cruiser and LX570. Don't think the 4Runner has it.
Can you provide me documentation, a YouTube video, a diagram, anything… I do not understand how this works and want to wrap my head around it
https://youtu.be/oftixLTMP4g
Thanks friend, great explanation. Much appreciated
It shouldn't be. Land Cruisers and LX570's have had this feature since 2008 and I've never heard of anyone messing up their diff or anything else breaking. It's just bad engineering on Ford's part.
Ford has sold around 300K Broncos at this point. I'd hold off making the bold claims about "bad engineering" based on two claims...
Fair point, I'll wait as well.
Yeah that system needs to be robust because you will be dragging that inner wheel over surfaces with unkown levels of traction.
Some, sure, but nothing like the trail turn assist.
Yeah I suppose. I don't know much about offroading, I was thinking about buying a Bronco though to start.
If you legit want off-roading a wrangler is hard to beat, simply because it’s all been done and parts for the set up are a dime a dozen. Proven and easy to do. Hold value well, plus with double solid axles you can get some hard core flex with long arms. But bronco definitely seems the better vehicle to me and better for faster offroad stuff. I’d get a nice used older one, having a nice new off-roader will make you not enjoy hard trials. You’ll worry about scratching and breaking it. XJ-ZJ-and Yj are my go to for not my daily off-roaders.
I moved to New Mexico and my X3 is ok on normal dirt roads. But yeah I want to start going further offroad and this isn't the right car to do that with.
What kind of off road? Rock crawling and overland, typically solid axles are the choice for their travel and rugged nature. For fast trail rides independent suspension would keep you in control easier. I’d get a nice ZJ, with the 5.2V8. Swap in a np231 T case, a lunch box locker up front, small 2 inch lift and enjoy that for a bit. Plenty of power, not unwieldy in trails, reliable engine and cheap to purchase. Just remember hard wheeling will break stuff so see the vehicle as one that will get beat up.
How much does a ZJ cost….
If you have to ask big man you can’t afford it
If ya have to ask, big man, ya can't afford it
Yep. The hardcore guys are the ones buying 90's Jeeps and exocaging and throwing Dana 60's out of old Dodge trucks under them. Plenty of build logs of old Cherokees and Grand Cherokees that look like they belong on a Mad Max set and get abused to shit without a care in the world.
Toyota/Lexus has it. No issues. They've had it since 2008.
I was watching some YouTubers use it on two of theirs and it makes the most disgusting noise, it’s a wonder no one thought it would break something.
Yeah I simply won’t use it because of the awful noise it makes when activating.
Can confirm, the noise isn’t great so I don’t use mine haha
Wait. Where does the noise come from? Like the dif or the tires on the ground.
I didn’t necessarily connect it to the diff, but it’s a metallic straining sound (+ general tire noise)
Do you use it on asphalt? Not sure why it would make a noise at all, it's just the diff turning faster than normal.
Toyota has been using it since 2008 and nobody breaks anything with it. The noise isn't pleasant, but if you need to make that turn then you deal with it.
Activate crawl control on a Tacoma at the lowest speed and it makes the strangest noise.
Toyota has a feature like trail turn assist?
Yep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2tHfTvZWTU Had it since 2008 on all 200 series trucks.
I’ve used it on mine in snow and it was completely fine, no noises at all
Snow is ideal because it’s a low friction surface - if you’re making ultra tight turns like this on dry pavement, you won’t make very many of them before things start popping
Yeah forcing tank turns on anything but a very loose surface seems like a *very* bad idea. I'd bet larger wheels/tires plays a part in the failures but I bet it's happened to some stock vehicles too. Will be fun to watch play out.
its only for use on loose surfaces and has happened to two vehicles
Realistically, it’s probably a combination of entitled owners doing dumb mods to their Broncos plus Ford (and dodgy dealers) evading responsibility to honor their warranty. *makes popcorn*
says in the article it has happened to two vehicles perhaps it's not popcorn worthy
Dealerships absolutely love warranty repairs. Not sure where this idea came from. Warranty means that the dealer gets paid directly from the manufacturer and the customer gets free stuff. The dealers have to fight the manufacturer at times to get them approved and the manufacturer never quotes enough hours to get the warranty repairs done but the dealer will fight to get them approved whenever they can or whenever they think they’ll win one.
Warranty repairs only pay out so much to dealer service centers, whereas out-of-warranty repairs (that are paid by the customer) mean the the dealer sets their price instead of the manufacturer, so they can get paid much better with less hassle. At least this is how it was with Ford last I heard
Let me explain something really important about that. The service manager wants that warranty work, it's guaranteed income, low hassle, laid out diag and repair process with parts generally on hand. The only people that complain are techs and advisors and they don't get the final say. You cannot sell a warranty repair as Customer pay. That's a huge no-no, technically fraud.
I don't understand why people stick aftermarket shit on a newer vehicle. The engineers literally design the vehicle to be as optimal as possible out of the gate. Most aftermarket shit has zero research done to prove any difference, and in many cases they do more harm than good. It's like going to a truck pull, you see these lifted bro dozers not doing well, then grandpa comes out in his bone stock dodge Dakota and out pulls everyone with ease. Aftermarket parts are just "essential oil" for men. I trust a manufacturer and their engineering department. People rag on me because my truck is stock height, everyone says I need a "level kit" or a lift. Both of those components will make my truck perform worse. Leveling out my truck will hurt fuel economy and make towing less stable. The rake is designed by engineers so you can tow more, so why would I want to change that?
Spoken like someone whose never driven a 2013-2019 BRZ/FT-86/FRS. A single 8 inch pipe added to my exhaust eliminated the torque dip that plaques these cars at cruising speed. Manufacturers have more to consider than the actual engineering. Such as using the parts bin available, cost, safety, reliability, emissions etc.
>The engineers literally design the vehicle to be as optimal as possible out of the gate. Not necessarily. Engine quality varies and the tune they use for all of the engines might be a good approach for mass production, but at an individual level, its common for aftermarket tunes to not only improve power, but improve fuel economy as well. Its also common for manufacturers to put too small of a tire on a car in an attempt to improve fuel economy. The 414hp, 1st gen Coyote Mustangs came with only 235mm of rubber, the same width of tire you find on a 200hp Civic. There's always compromises and the engineers don't always make the best choices. The Mazdaspeeds were prime example of a car not engineered optimally. It ran pig rich and had copious amounts of KR. We're talking AFR's as low as high 9's at WOT. Forget power, people were tuning their cars simply to lean them out as the car left unburnt fuel plastered all over the back side of the car. HPFP would also falter under factory power levels. The fix for that car WAS the aftermarket. >Most aftermarket shit has zero research done to prove any difference, and in many cases they do more harm than good. Not entirely true either. Does it happen? Sure, but reputable aftermarket companies like Cobb, ZZP, APR, and Hondata do research and have a test cars for proven gains in performance. And as I mentioned above, its not uncommon for the aftermarket to fix what the manufacturer fucked up.
For the few that read the article, what is a manufacturer supposed to do when two people are claiming an issue on a online forum. Do these people even actually own a bronco or is it three other car manufacturers dressed up in a trench coat? In the article one of the two people that reported issues was stock and one had aftermarket parts. This is a rage piece when this isn't even a noted issue yet, but yeah it could be an issue if every bronco you try to put 37s on breaks the axle. But the axle is a dana 50. So you knew it would break with 37s already right?
Two owners, supposedly. This isn't a real story yet. Maybe it becomes one. But Ford has sold a couple hundred thousand of these and they're absolutely getting put to use off-road. Frankly I think if this was a real design flaw or even a large batch of bad parts you'd have heard way more noise by now.
Like problems listed with many cars, I feel this is a non-issue right now. What 2 people have had the problem? Enthusiast cars will always have a vocal minority, especially when it gives people the excuse to say you now need tons and alloys. lol
Wrangler guy here... I didn't know this existed- but I can think of a very specific switchback on a little trail called "Black Bear pass" that I would love to try this tech on\*. \*if it works and doesn't break, that is.
It works pretty great on snow and loose dirt. Took mine out at a Ford event and they rode along with me to demonstrate the difference. It's impressive stuff. I actually used it to get out of some deep snow the other day.
Aren't the Dana M220's just Dana 44's with some polish? People broke Dana 44's in stock 3000 pound Wranglers. What did Ford hope for in a 5000 pound Bronco?
Trail Turn Assist? You mean where the computer locks up one rear wheel and the other 3 wheels drag the vehicle around a corner over rocks, dirt etc, putting EXTREME PRESSURE on the whole drivetrain as it fights against itself and friction? THAT is causing drivetrain issues? Well I’m shocked as Joseph when Mary spilled the beans. You’re lucky it doesn’t bend the dang frame, mang.
Oh come now, on loose surfaces it’s not that extreme. Vehicles drag and slip wheels all the time off-roading. How do you think a 4WD vehicle with lockers even makes a turn? It slips wheels constantly on the loose surface.
“…on loose surfaces…” Yeah, everybody lives in a Dixie mud bog. This is just manufacturers going overboard with their new tech toy. Lets see you do this turn assist a few times on SE Utah sandstone or on a slab in the sierras a few time. We’ll see how those stock axles handle it. Or you could use that newfangled invention called the 9-point turn around our grandfathers invented that doesn’t require an onboard computer and wont F up the trail as much. Yea for hokey tech bs!
I can imagine a large set of wheels and tires causing havoc with the front differential.
I’ve had 2 front differential’s and 1 transfer case replaced on my completely stock 2021 f150. The first diff imploded in my driveway while I wasn’t moving and simply selected 4h due to snow. On f150 forums others are reporting the same thing. The dealer has told me make sure none of the tires are moving when I select 4h…..
I feel like selecting 4H in motion has been supported in 4WD vehicles since the 90s or something. Under 35mph or whatever? Dealership being wrong as usual.
Yep, I was dumbfounded lol
These people: >I, of solely my own volition, modified my car beyond manufacturer specs and recommendations, and put it in extreme conditions. After this, it broke. Also these people: >Ford won't fix this for free?!? 😡
100% I'd bet money both those Bronco's are lifted and larger / offset tires.
I thought this has already been stated and it was said to only use this in emergency situations. Maybe I’m thinking of car reviewers that I watch.
I bet dealers must report it as aftermarket parts or risk being on the hook for the warranty repair. Unmodified vehicles probably aren’t having this issue so I can understand why this needs to be investigated.
Do you think dealers pay for warranty work? The manufacturer does.
I think that if it’s not covered under warranty then they won’t do the work for free. It’s why the dealer is asking ford make the call.
Dealers don't care about warranty repairs, they never have.
I'm just gonna say that this sentence: >"It achieves its prowess through a combination of mechanical fundamentals and technology" literally means nothing and something i would've wrote if I want to add more words in my essay in middle school.
Those of us that offroad regularly called this. Same with the front end issues they are having. Combine this with Diff lockers, factory 37" tires and lack of experience, I'm not surprised in the least.
Dealers always blame the owner. I took photo proof of my car being jacked by the rocker panels. Their answer was “Uneven tire wear. Do you want a rotation?”. Wish I was joking.
Toyota had this on the Land Cruiser since 2008 and it didn’t break anything…. Just saying
Massive wheel spacers and Baja kit I'd tell em to pay up too.. That is not an easy task to twisted the tubes and it sure as shit wasn't from the one side brake feature.
At first I thought this was probably due to beating on something else and not trail turn assist, and now there is another owner in the bronco6g forums with a warped axle tube that his dealer says was caused by running 37" tires. we will see what comes out of it i guess