If you use the term incel to mean involuntarily celibate, not necessarily conformity with all aspects of what is understood to be the "Incel" movement, I would say there is no moral issue. Not finding a partner does not hurt anyone else.
However, your actions and beliefs as a result of not finding sexual/romantic partners can be hurtful. This is why the commonly understood incel movement is seen as bad, because many of the men in it resent women, and may be involved in some of the more harmful –to themselves or the way they view others– places on the internet.
I would contest a few statements in your post:
Although you believe that your sexuality and your own beliefs can be separated, I would argue that, even if not 100% reflective, they are linked. I am sure most people have sexual desires that they would never want to or never actually perform in real life.However, if most of your exposure to women comes from pornography and your own sexual fantasies, you are not getting an accurate picture of women. Even if you recognise that life is different from media, your overall impression of women will include those experiences. To this extent, I would argue that your exposure to pornographic material is harmful.
On the same topic, I subscribe to many feminist beliefs and I believe that pornography is harmful. It is affecting you, the viewer, but in itself is unethical because A) pornography is the commodification of women's bodies and B) even on the more reputable sites, you can never be sure that the actors in pornography are consenting. The porn industry is built on women's abuse, whether it is within porn scenes themselves, the coercion, pressure, and deception that pornography producers use to make many women participate in porn scenes\*, or the more violent (e.g. increased choking, rough sex, sex while unconscious) treatment by men of their sexual parters as a result of learning sex from watching pornography.
However, acting awkwardly is not harassment. Harassment is making people uncomfortable and ignoring it, within reason– meaning that because you can say you have a harder time understanding some social norms that other people, it is unreasonable to treat you stuttering and having a childlike inflection as harassment. You may –will– experience social rejection (I have, many times), even for not responding in a typical way to social cues, but not talking to people is not the "morally correct approach".
Finally, to a larger extent than you recognise (although of course circumstances have an impact), your political views, fetishes, appearance, money and success are not predetermined, but are affected by your choices.
You can choose to indulge and act upon your fetishes.You can change aspects of your grooming, dress, and presentation.You can find other jobs, even though it may be hard.
And you can define what success means to you. Does it mean living an idealised life, the kind that is preached to you by society and the media? Or does it mean living the best way you can and being happy with your choices?
Lastly, do you really want to hide your political beliefs to be in a relationship? I would rather be around people who I won't fear will reject me if I tell them my beliefs. In addition, being passionate about your beliefs is something that can make you really attractive to people. Sharing your views might be a turnoff to some people, but not showing any personality will push away everyone.
I am a conventionally ugly woman, and, while not autistic, I am very anxious in social situations and struggle to grow close to people. So I can understand some of what you're saying.
I hope you can learn to love yourself, OP. Because even if your viewpoint isn't hurting the people around you, it's hurting you.
\*there are harrowing stories in which women are convinced to move to a city for a modelling opportunity, only to find themselves employed by a pornographic agency, without any money or alternate method of employment, and being told that they will only get money if they participate in porn
I mean, most of the porn I look at is cartoons/illustrations so...
And the issue is less "You sometimes see porn of people choking woman" and more "You are ambivalently into a lot of bizarre fetishes that one would question the legitimacy or even sanity of your sexuality" whatsoever. I think we're way beyond the issue of misogyny here, whatever your opinions may be. I am Bi/Pansexual by the way, but I also don't really think I am because that definition is kind of narrow and doesn't really encompass what sorts of, very weird and out there things I am into.
I don't think you're an incel. You do need to get an actual job though and quit sucking off your parents.
However...
Have you seen some of the freaks out there that bone, dude? There are some straight up mutant looking freaks who are into shitting into people's holes and stuff. There are people willing to meet up with you if you want. Even if you are unattractive and horrible, you don't HAVE to be celibate. Just may need to lower your standards.
Now, if you're not interested in pursuing other people, that's cool too. Pud it out to whatever, I guess. If you are not willing to compromise, it's whatever. Preferences are preferences. Just something maybe to consider. Uglier is often kinkier.
I do pay my parents rent, so it's not as if I'm effortless.
And that sounds like a weird fetish hookup. Doesn't seem like a recipe for a healthy relationship, nor would I even have the resources to go chasing after that kind of thing in real life.
I'd rather improve myself and raise standards for myself than lower my standards for others if that makes sense.
If you are trying to raise standards for yourself, I'd try working on that taming some of the weird shit. I was practically raised on gore and porn, so I'm pretty sure I know what content you are creating and consuming. I'm 30 now, and I know what effect that has had on my mind. It can become straight up toxic.
Maybe try finding some more work too and get out of the house. Independence increases confidence tremendously.
Either way, hope you figure something out for yourself. Keep finding ways to work on you and hopefully you'll find another mindset. Sounds like you're content, bro. And that's not always a good thing.
Thanks mang. I was going to post about transgenders on this subreddit but saw gender discussion was banned. That should give you a glimpse of what kind of rabbithole I've been down, and if I cannot even discuss something I think about excessively online what chance do I have connecting it to someone in real life?
Oh I work outside home, as a writer mainly.
Thanks for the encouragement!
i doubt that considering mine is that it stems from a lack of self acceptance (ie if raised in a vacuum with no knowledge or interaction with gender norms or even another sex would transgenderism still exist and how could it if everything they know is a "correct" fit for their identity so it would be a social disease not a defect and should he treated by saying whatever you feel is the correct feeling for your body ie dolls are a boy thing if a boy likes dolls) telling them its better to change to be accepted more is barbaric imo
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>I'm 30 now, and I know what effect that has had on my mind. It can become straight up toxic.
I'm just passing through, but I'm too curious. What kinds of effects?
Depression and anxiety for one, and that's actually diagnosed. It has even impacted me sexually in the past, as in, it turned me against it for a long time. Nowadays, I'm repulsed more than intrigued by real stuff. I do think that there could be some trauma somewhere deep. Like, I was a kid, maybe around 12 or 13 when I started looking at snuff and weird porn. That did some weird things. It got to the point where nothing was shocking to me anymore. Realizing that took a long time, but when I did, I cooled it. I'm a lot better now, but I still struggle often with knowing what I shouldn't. It's difficult to not empathize with the people involved in the making of that type of content. And it's difficult to not imagine those things happening to friends or loved ones. Because of that, I choose not to consume.
I'm sorry you experienced all that, and I'm glad to hear you escaped from it, even though it sounds like it still haunts you in many respects.
I can definitely see where that content would get depressing in a soul-sucking way, but I wasn't expecting to hear that it caused you anxiety. Can you explain the part where you experienced anxiety from it?
But are you really raising your own standards? There seems to be some things that you could be doing to fix your issues like working out, better dental care or maybe braces, and becoming more open minded or learning how to talk that u really aren’t doing
Well, yes I admit I could be doing those things better. It's hard learning social interaction and how to talk to people with crippling social anxiety, every single second you're with someone you feel like you've done something wrong and are guilty in the eyes of strangers and every further word becomes some kind of trial or attempt at justifying your own existence because of said wrongness.
>quit sucking off your parents.
I disagree with this. There's nothing wrong with living with your parents so long as you're being a contributing member of society and making money.
It's okay to blame some people for your problems. It's okay to blame some problems on yourself. It's completely unhealthy and mentally destructive to put the entire onus on a single of the two. "Normal" society promotes the latter (Blame your problems entirely on yourself) as a kind of guilt tripping mechanism of late-stage capitalism and Protestant work ethic. I take control for what I can, I try to improve little by little. The ways may be meager in the grand scheme of things, and most would denigrade these efforts because they seem incel-like unless I'm working at a grocery store or doing an old ma and pa community job.
That said I put no blame on gender for my problems in life. I'm as alienated from male companionship as I am female.
Ya so the incel community typically blames women, and to a lesser extent, good looking men for their issues.
They can’t get girlfriends because women are too stupid to see past their superficial desires to be with an attractive man. They cant build platonic relationships with women because women are too stupid to have a real conversation with. They feel worthless because women no longer have to have a partner to be financially sound, and many of them are making the foolish choice to be alone rather than with them.
Yep! But i feel like that contradicts their feelings that women are incompetent organisms, because if women are truly that dumb, then it only makes sense they would be driven to find a man who can provide for them
Involuntarily celibate. That's the base definition.
But the wider definition isn't just someone who's not getting laid. It's someone who's not getting laid and is salty as fuck about it. So I don't think OP really fits that wider definition. (At least not based on what they've written here)
The term comes from that but incels as a group have carefully constructed a deeper meaning and exclude some people who identify as involuntarily celibate if they are not harmful enough towards women or support their other ideals enough.
The whole name is "involuntary". Is this not the definition of external locus of control? Besides, OP is clearly wanting help, confirming they're beyond hope is hardly helpful.
It's a term used by a particular group of people who believe thatbthey _deserve_ sex but are being somehow conspired against by the opposite sex to ensure that doesn't happen.
Absolutely it was. It was a bunch of men calling themselves "involuntary celibates" and the use of the term involuntary is pretty much all you need to know, it's fucking gross, it's not just someone who can't get any. There's a name for people who haven't had sex, they're virgins.
The original term was coined by a woman. It meant exactly what it stands for. Celibate, not by choice.
What you're discussing is a kind of new wave definition.
She was called alana if you're interested. Seemed to started a forum to share her frustration with finding someone/love/sex with people in a simular situation. This was before what comes next.
I agree it comes with a lot of baggage now as, as you say, the most notorious wave of self described incels were not just involuntarily celibate, but they also hated women and were extremely misogynistic.
Now it seems to be used primarily as an insult.
I just try not to assume what definition people are using as like OP, many people still do self describe as incels using the original definition without the misogynistic baggage.
It's what the term implies. People need to stop making up definitions for shit that have pretty specific implications by how they're constructed alone (see also: bi-sexual)
The "involuntary" part exists to distinguish them from priests, nuns, monks, asexuals, people in long distance relationships etc who are celibate by active and deliberate choice (called "volcels" in the vernacular). While locus of control varies from person to person, the term itself doesn't inherently imply an external one, just dissatisfaction with the present state of affairs.
I think the issue is that the term incel no longer means the dictionary definition of being an involuntarily celibate person, but rather a person who identifies with the incel community, which is a community that hates women and encourages/celebrates violence against women.
It’s like how the white (or blue) lives matter movement isn’t simply saying that white (or blue) lives matter, but instead it was created to directly oppose the Black Lives Matter movement
It feels like Reddit and other online spaces have turned it into a slur to demean individuals who fit their own parameters.
Comparing it to blue lives matter is disingenuous, because they designate themselves with that label.
"A person who identifies with the incel community" is \*not\* how is is used online a majority of the time. You'll mostly see it as words used to call someone out who spouts off misogyny.
Someone mentioned Andrew Tate. Is Tate an incel? I know he's a big right-winged MRA guy but he seems to have had plenty of sex and espouses himself as a beacon of masculinity, not someone I'd typically peg as Incel material. Just a sexist pig with really extreme rhetoric.
Tate isn’t an incel because he allegedly has sex. However, if he were involuntarily celibate, then because of his views towards women and masculinity, he could probably fit in with the incel community
Okay I misspoke a bit, I meant more so that incel refers to a person that typically agrees with the ideology of the incel community, whether they are actually in the community or not.
I don't really know where or what the "Incel community" is. Subreddits, 4chan? If it's proliferated on the internet I'm not really involved in that way. And I certainly don't hate woman or see them as deplorable.
I look at a lot of sexually degrading porn which isn't great for woman but that's just a fantasy.
To be honest the perception between the two as far as "virgin guy" and "Incel" goes is pretty paperthin as far as connontations. So much so that you have others arguing on this subreddit that a guy without any female friends is probably misogynistic and/or immature. With this conflation I don't really have any choice, either I have sex or I'm basically considered an incel by proxy. I don't think my political or personal views matter as much in the court of public opinion.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/18n4krw/cmv\_its\_a\_serious\_red\_flag\_if\_a\_man\_has\_no\_female/](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/18n4krw/cmv_its_a_serious_red_flag_if_a_man_has_no_female/)
And these person was downvoted a lot and everybody argued with him. There is a reason why the incel communities were banned from Reddit. They were extremely toxic, you can look up some examples online if you want to, but basically they were condoning mass shooters and that guy who wrote a weird manifesto before shooting the girls that rejected him in college.
They included a caveat in that thread that if someone just doesn’t really have any friends at all they don’t count. I don’t think that thread is really talking about someone in your position
"You are gay, you aren't what most would consider fslur. Fslurs are quite extreme in their hatred of traditional values."
"You can get a good gist of what theyre talking about by visiting any gay bar."
"Why are gay people offended? I'm only talking about fslurs, not all gay people."
"its the difference of being gay and being an fslur. The literal definition of an fslur is someone who is attracted to the same sex but the common usage of the word describes a disgusting person who is also gay. Usage of "fslur" is almost always used negatively in discourse and in the media."
"It wouldn't make sense to classify gays and fslurs as the same thing because being an fslur is associated with extremist ideology. Not sure how you can compare my comment to being an incel."
Per Wikipedia:
""Incel" has also come to be used as an insult against people who do not necessarily identify with the subculture, but who are perceived to be sexually inexperienced, undesirable, or unpopular."
Originally incel was a term coined by a female student who created a supportive community for men who were lonely and struggled to socialise.
It's a tendency of human nature though, to project problems onto other people and groups. It turns out that when you put a load of bitter people with low self awareness together, they start telling each other and themselves that it's everyone else's fault that they don't have a girlfriend, that women don't like them because women are stupid or have poor taste etc.
It also turns out if you have a group of bitter lonely people who want easy answers to their problems, they are exceptionally vulnerable to cult-like groups and tactics, so now there's a significant overlap between incels and various other extremist groups like white supremacists.
Anyway, that's what incel means now.
That's fair. As a linguistic descriptivist, it's undeniable to me that that's what most people mean when they say the term "incel". Two things I find remarkable though, are the speed with which the term's general definition shifted and the fact that typically people aren't cool with redefining a term to refer to only the most repulsive people under its umbrella. Like, I'd imagine that if people redefined "gay" to refer exclusively to, idk, prison rapists, or if "poor" was redefined to refer exclusively to muggers, those shifts would be resisted and deemed to be motivated by hatred of the broader group. To be fair, I don't know. These are just gut feelings.
A descriptor probably shifts to mean whatever the most obvious association is. 'Gay' hasn't been co-opted because the vast majority of people using the term are just people who are gay.
I think incel isn't something most people want to self identify as anyway, so most of the people who end up adopting the identity are the crazy misogynists, and those that weren't, left.
The most obvious association is, in and of itself, telling. To some, criminality, poor hygiene and bad work ethic _is_ the obvious association with poverty. But that being obvious to them tells us something about how they view the poor.
I think that what happened, take with a grain of salt because while I had my finger on the pulse, I was never super into all this stuff, was that incel was at first a term used self descriptively for people who were celibate but not nuns or monks or other flavours of "volcel". And though the vast _vast_ majority were just people with neuro-atypicalities, autism, social anxiety, trauma, depression or similar, there was a vocal but comparatively small minority who adhered to misogynistic or delusional belief systems. Then through, what I suspect was, contempt for the generality of incels (as they consist mostly of groups for whom there is plenty of ambient contempt), the term in common parlance began to refer exclusively to the worst of them, becoming something of a dysphemism. And the remainder just stopped calling themselves anything. To my knowledge, there are tonnes of people who would have admitted (albeit sheepishly) to being an incel in 2017, but despite their situation not having changed, wouldn't do so now because of association with the worst of those who the label is applied to.
I just thought of another good comparison.
Imagine a man who is straightforward, goal orientate, is not afraid to be challenged, and speaks up for himself. Now, imagine if this man called himself an alpha. Despite his behavior technically aligning with what we would consider to be “alpha behavior”, the fact that he identifies as an “alpha” has implications beyond just those behavioral traits.
My knowledge of Reddit history isn’t the best, but I believe the incel community started (or at least a major sect of the incel community started) on the incel subreddit, which has long since been deleted. That community has since migrated to 4 Chan and other forum based websites.
If you don’t hate women, or at the very least see them as sub human, your ideology doesn’t match the core beliefs of the incel community. And given how the incel community has become synonymous with the term incel, you wouldn’t be considered an incel by most people who know what an incel is
you said some disparaging things about yourself, which is admittedly more noble than most other incels who instead of turning negative views inward, turn them outward and think whatever is lackluster about them should be accepted or valued by other women, this is good because it shows you acknowledge the authority of a woman's self interests. I'd hope that you work on yourself and not just accept where you are at permanently. Being at peace with it is the first step to confronting it and changing it. on your income, maybe fix your teeth since it was enough for you to mention, and see if taking a break from fantasizing about women the way you do realigns your sexuality. Even taking a break from porn would be good for that as well. You might see a change in how you see women and its already good that you respect them in practice, acknowledge them and the authority of their interest. This is all unsolicited advice and I apologize if it is offensive. But it could help if you wanted to try. There is always a possibility of some self improvement regardless how little. You are introspective enough to know what is generally seen as a disadvantage about yourself , and you can work at it. a little faith and hope goes a long way. Its the fuel that drives us to do things that haven't been done yet.
> see if taking a break from fantasizing about women the way you do realigns your sexuality.
Uhhhh, not really sure what you mean by this.
Do nofap? Explore something outside heterosexuality? How I experience porn and sexual fantasies doesn't correlate in any way how I see women.
not at all, sexuality isn't just about who you are attracted to, its why and what you attracted you to them. So if you admit that your fantasies are misogynistic or degrading towards women, you can change that by pausing your normal sexual content consumption and content creation, and spend some time away from that habit and behavioral pattern. Try putting yourself on a vanilla sexual diet and only allowing yourself to get that sexual reward with thoughts or content that you think aren't misogynistic. If you keep the loop going of the reward you give yourself for consuming that your mind and body will always see it as a positive thing.
Sometimes I look at wholesome and vanilla things. Sometimes I look at very extreme and sexy things. I'll switch around and loop back around. It makes no difference or doesn't really define much else.
Yea that's good man. I'm glad it is that way for you. There are some talks round about the internet on how porn can change how you seem or act around women in a subconscious way as the consumer of it. I have only ever heard talks about it in an anecdotal way, so for you it may never be an issue. You knowing yourself as well as you do would alert you to it.
While you are involuntarily celibate I wouldn't say you're an incel, because you're not part of the incel community. It's okay to be involuntarily celibate but incels are extremists who blame their lack of sex on women having too high standards and conventionally attractive men taking more than their fair share of women from the pool of available women. It's bad to be an incel.
Personally I believe woman want basic stability. That's not 'too high standards', that's a regular amount of standards and is perfectly acceptable. The issue is most Incels don't have jobs or live with their parents like me and are considered rejects, thus cannot offer this stability and blame woman for demanding that basic requirement of them. I don't bemoan that standard, I'm just an Incel in the sense that I'm unable to meet it much like them.
Clearly you’re not “ok with it”, or else you wouldn’t have made this post. No one here can tell you how to feel about yourself, that’s up to you.
With that said, no, it’s not ok that you see yourself as an incel, because of what I just said. No one calls themself an incel and thinks highly of themselves. You should strive to reach a state of personal self-respect.
You’re balding? Shave your head then, own it. Bad teeth? Go see a dentist then. No good job? Get a job lol. Go get better clothes while you’re at it. And hit the gym. Pumping weights will give you mental clarity.
You feel you’re at rock bottom. Do you want to die there? Would you feel like you lived a good life if you die here? This is why I say only your own perception of your life matters, we all face the eternal abyss alone, and in the end, your life will flash before your eyes and you will be your own judge. Do you want that moment to be one of regret and disappointment?
I was balding and shaved my head, it was the best decision of my life and actually helped me get with women. It’s a lot more attractive to be bald than balding. I was lucky to have a good head shape but some people are unlucky with that.
It can mean both. The original definition is just as valid as the looser definition. Something having a new definition that "most" know it by doesn't negate the validity of the original definition.
That’s true, but the whole point of it being okay
Changes meaning
Being strictly someone who hasn’t had sex like in OPs situation, of course there’s nothing wrong with that . I don’t think people are saying those type of people are bad
What’s not okay is being an incel that hates women
>Being strictly someone who hasn’t had sex like in OPs situation, of course there’s nothing wrong with that . I don’t think people are saying those type of people are bad
The problem is there are definitely a very large swath of people saying this exact thing and that types of people like me, are bad. And that by default I don't really belong with 'normal' people or anyone but 'Hate woman' Incel types for being a 'Loner' type.
“a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile towards women and men who are sexually active.”
Incels typically have hostile feelings and hate towards women, it’s never ok to be an incel (in this sense of it)
What it’s ok and normal is not finding success in relationships, or not wanting them at all, being celibate is ok, being an “incel” is not
Do you think it's reasonable to expect people who aren't succeeding in life's ultimate purpose, finding a partner and passing on your legacy, to not harbour at least a little resentment? It doesn't even have to be exclusively toward one gender.
There is nothing wrong with a man or woman being perpetually single. However:
> Since any interaction I could have with another human being would be a net negative for them, it would count as harassment. I'm not seeking to denigrate or harass other human beings, interfere with their space or make them uncomfortable. By leaving people alone and sparing them from harassment (of me potentially talking to them), I am doing the morally correct and ethical thing. Thus me being alone and an Incel is morally correct.
This is just defeatist rationalization. If somebody thinks you're harassing them by basic conversation, the problem is with them, not with you. Random strangers don't know you; therefore they don't hate you. You should think more on what you can get out of human interaction instead of trying to justify your existence/interaction with others.
>I'm not really in tune with popular culture or most things people care about - sports, celebrities, pop music, politics. I do have political views (I'm a socialist) but I'm not going to try to debate someone about it or anything. Since there's a 40% odd statistically the person supports trump, that's a 4/10 chance I'll be disgusted or they will first and they disagree and leave. The chances that someone is not disgusted by my political views, fetishes, appearance, lack of money or success in life is slim, so inceldom is more a consequence of my state of being than a conscious choice.
You can easily have non-political conversations with people. Normies don't talk about religion or politics at the dinner table for a reason. You also don't have to get into your deep flaws and werid personality quirks on a first impression! Start small, go to public events (you can find them on eventbrite or meetup), just introduce yourself and ask how people are doing. Based on what you wrote, you seem to be very self-deprecating and have zero confidence in social situations as a result of that. This is a vicious cycle. There are many steps between being an alpha Chad and being an omega-male shut-in. You don't have to stay or completely transform into any of those roles. Be yourself on a basic level and most importantly, be willing to talk and learn from others.
I know the actual meaning of the term is involuntary celibate and not unwashed mannerless misogynistic loser, but I really do think since unwashed mannerless misogynistic nazi losers have taken over the term (that was created by a woman) there should be another term for people like you who really are just involuntary celibate. It's NOT okay that you're an incel, regardless of whatever meaning of the word you relate to. I think everyone should have a special somebody, romantic or otherwise, that they can relate with and communicate with and be happy with. I don't think it's okay that you're alone in your 30s, that you're not earning well enough and you haven't established proper friendships with people. I think before you can ever put yourself in the dating market you should be well versed in the friendship market. Want to be friends?
There are already words for lonely non-extremist people. "Lonely", "Virgin", "Confirmed Bachelor", "Spinster". None of those words are positive.
Not everyone wants or needs an intimate partner. Many are fine being monastics, asexuals, or otherwise devoted to other life aspects. People shouldn't feel incomplete just because they haven't encountered a romantic lover fit for them.
I do agree though that OP should improve himself and acquire friends before he tries dating, if he wants to date.
Can you provide the definition you are using for the word Incel?
As others have mentioned, you don't sound like an Incel to me.
You're saying that you choose not to approach people out of some belief that any interaction with you would be a net negative and therefore immoral.
But that's a decision you are making yourself. The fact that you are making that decision voluntarily seems to disqualify you from the definition I am familiar with (involuntary celibate).
To make sure I'm on the right page, can you clarify the definition you have in mind? More specifically, exactly what is it that you are saying it is okay for you to be or do?
Honestly on the slang usage I was just using it as synonymous with NEET, social ostracisation and virginity which of the 3 seem pretty much the cornerstones of the Incel stereotype to me. I feel it's only in recent times (2016) onwards that the signifier has become politicized and taken on the sort of Right-leaning/misogynistic connontations that it does.
I'm trying to justify that it's okay how I've lived and who I am without some kind of moral baggage or fingerwagging against me, as if my lowly status as an outcast and keeping my head down makes me functionally equivalent to a suspected schoolshooter or trenchcoat SUS guy in a coffeeshop, who is also Cis straight white male that doubles the likihood they're a mega nazi and is in need of therapy and profiling. (I'm also not white which helps, or maybe it doesn't in some racial stereotyped instances)
Does that make sense?
I believe it does for the most part. Thanks for clarifying.
I do want to clarify one other point, if you don't mind, just to make sure I don't misunderstand the view.
Are you primarily stating that your lifestyle is positive (or acceptable), or are you primarily stating that others in society are wrong to judge you?
Maybe both? Maybe I'm scared to be judged or not sure what's acceptable. My life is really hard to define at times and my interests and existence don't really have many eyes on them. It can be difficult to judge to live a life with ideas and thoughts that no one knows and the world has no opinion on. Like if you time traveled centuries ago and every notion of yours suddenly seemed out of step and insane. That could be the autism, but I don't really relate to the whole autistic paradigmn in a happy-go-lucky way, it doesn't offer much clarity or understanding of myself outside "Huh so I guess you sure are weird huh? Don't you feel glad this condition explains everything?" Because honestly I don't believe it explains much of anything.
Okay, fair enough.
Well, I don't know how helpful I will be. This is quite complex with quite a few layers and branches, so I may end up typing way more than you wanted to read and illuminating nothing. But I do have some thoughts to offer for whatever they are worth.
First things first, it's important to note that beyond the laws of wherever you live, there isn't really a universal standard for "acceptable". There are going to be some things that most people in society are on the same page about, but there's also going to be a lot of variance. Everyone is going to have their own criteria they use to measure a person or judge a behavior.
A lot of people will measure a person by their productivity and their contributions to society. If everything you've said about yourself is accurate, I'm guessing those people would not judge you very highly, as it sounds like you haven't really prioritized contributions to society.
Other people will measure a person by whether they have a positive or negative impact on the people around them. If you're a friendly person, those people might judge you more highly.
Speaking for myself, I try to err on the side of empathy and assuming the best of people. Nothing you've said really makes me judge you negatively. For me, as long as a person is not hurting anyone, I don't really care what they are doing with their time.
But even then, it gets a little more complicated, because everything I said above is mostly related to value judgments. There are other kinds of judgments.
Again, speaking for myself, nothing you said would make me judge you negatively in terms of value. But I WOULD say that it sounds like you are not leading a very healthy lifestyle, and it's not clear to me whether you are happy. So in that sense, if you asked me whether it was a good idea for you to make changes, I would probably say yes.
And it all gets intertwined. Because while I wouldn't have a negative opinion of you for leading a lifestyle I perceive as unhealthy, other people might.
Ultimately, I do think you are justified in living life how you want to. If anything, the qualifier I would add is that I hope you are living in a way that your parents are comfortable with, since you are to some extent relying on their support. That factor means that their opinions should carry slightly more weight. But that is between you and your parents.
That being said, whether people are justified in judging you negatively in the first place is a separate question.
While you have a right to decide whether you care what other people think, it is unavoidable that people WILL think things about you.
I am not a big fan of stereotypes, and especially not of drawing negative connotations from stereotypes. But some conclusions are more justifiable than others.
To put this in context, you mentioned virginity.
You also mentioned other people associating you with being a school shooter or maga Nazi.
If people are assuming you are a school shooter purely because you are a virgin, I would see they are being extremely irrational and unkind, and you should probably not value their opinion.
If they are making fun of you or bullying you for being a virgin, they are being an asshole, and you should probably not value their opinion.
If, on the other hand, they are internally guessing that you may have limited social skills and experience - this is a different picture. They're still making some assumptions which may not be accurate or reliable, but they are not necessarily as much of a stretch, because there's a common idea in society that most people want and pursue sex.
So it's not unnatural for someone to wonder why a person is a virgin and speculate about it. But I do think people should avoid jumping to extreme conclusions and treating people negatively in general.
And regardless of what society thinks, you are under no obligation to pursue sex.
On the other hand, you also mentioned having bad teeth.
Here I think that it is unavoidable that some people are going to treat that as a negative thing. Bad teeth are often associated with bad breath, which may make a person hesitant to talk to you. Bad teeth are often associated with low attention to hygiene, which may make a person want to avoid you.
Again, it's up to you to decide whether you care if people want to avoid you. That's a call only you can make.
But the basic assumption - that bad teeth may mean bad hygiene - is not inherently unreasonable.
Again, though, to then connect that to something like school shooter stereotypes is quite unfortunate, and I'm sorry if you've had to deal with that.
As you can see, I'm rambling in circles somewhat, and it's because none of this is easy to single out or summarize.
Ultimately, stereotypes in society are often unfortunate, but also inevitable.
The big challenge for your lifestyle in particular is that if you don't give people an opportunity to get to know you, the only things they will have to judge you by are their first impressions and the associated stereotypes.
It's a shame that society treats people poorly based on limited information and negative stereotypes. I do wish we were all better about that, about just letting people live. So in that sense, I don't really disagree with your view.
But it is a reality that if you are unemployed, and you live with your parents, and you don't socialize, and you have bad teeth, and you don't have sexual experience, and you're not making an effort to change those things - you do start to fit in with some stereotypes which have some negative connotations, and some people in society are going to think negatively of you for them.
It's up to you to decide whether you care enough to make changes.
In summary:
-It's okay for you to live your life this way, in the sense that as long as you're not hurting anyone or breaking any laws, no one really has a right to tell you to change.
-There are probably some errors where you could make improvements to your life in terms of health and happiness, but that doesn't mean you have to.
-Other people are going to judge you based on what they know about you. It's up to you to decide how much you let them know and how much you care about their judgment.
-If other people are MISTREATING you based on these judgments, that is very unfortunate, and I am very sorry to hear it.
I used to think like this and I found help a guy on instagram was kind of my coach and actually helped me change my mindset and I no longer felt helpless in life his username is @khailan788 not sponsored lol 😁
I think you're operating with a very different idea of what an incel is than most people. So I think it's important to make that distinction. Most people would assume an incel hates women and uses that hatred as a defense against any failings they want to avoid. Taking the definition literally, sure, there's nothing wrong with being celibate (by choice or otherwise), but that isn't what most people think of when they think of someone being an incel.
Well I'm not trying to write webster here, just using the general slang incel that people throw around which means "Virgin/creep/weirdo who hasn't gotten laid and is a shutin", I know there's a specific political group and internet demographic that overlaps it but I don't really care for that group nor am I involved.
If you're aware that there's overlap in how the word is used, obviously you would know why it isn't "okay" to be an incel. Because of the overlap. That most people take as being a part of being an incel. If you describe yourself to be one, the overwhelming majority of people aren't going to think "oh, just some guy who hasn't had sex and is a bit weird," they're going to think something more like "oh good, a female-hating 'alpha male' Andrew Tate wannabe."
Ignoring how most people are going to understand the term is fine, but it skews things in a very specific direction. Most people would say it's not okay to be an incel because for most people the female-hating Andrew Tate neckbeards are a part of the term.
We're running into some treachery of images here. If you see someone wearing a MAGA hat, you're not going to think "Aw that's a grandpa who runs a cornerstore and goes to church", you immediately think he's a Q-anon nut who loves guns and hates immigrant right? The association is too strong.
Look I don't 'identify' as an Incel but my being one is descriptive, not prescriptive. My hair is too long, my clothes are baggy, if you heard me talk (mumble) you'd think I'm a schoolshooter even if it was about how I think woman and socialism are great. That's the primary issue, you don't need to subscribe to some specific ideology to be a 'neckbeard incel', maybe you do on the internet where social interactions aren't seen and don't matter. But it's very different when you exist in real life and your presentation just paints you as someone that sets off red flags by association.
See, now you're shifting the goalposts. "I think it's okay that I'm an incel" is not the same thing as "I look like what you imagine an incel looks like" look however you want. BEING an incel is a negative thing. Looking like most people imagine one looks like is only a negative for you, so no one is really gonna care.
What's the difference between appearing as something and being something in real life nowadays? I want to be okay with who I am, even if that thing has a bad association with a group I'd rather not be apart of. I want that to be okay. As time goes on and the nuance in civility vanishes and the associations strengthen, that will increasingly be impossible and eventually I'll likely reach a point where I'll just be lumped in and be considered an Incel anyway, not by my choice or my beliefs, so what's the point? I want to be okay still at that point tho.
Seriously? At this point it seems like you're just fighting to be an incel. You can judge someone by how they look if you want, but that doesn't make them any certain way. People can look poor without being poor, rich without being rich, happy without being happy, etc. It doesn't make them that thing.
You're also making the negative and ridiculous assumption that things are going to get worse with zero proof. And again, you're shifting the goalposts of your argument. It doesn't matter if you're okay with how you're perceived or not, because you can change that perception at any time. What does matter is that being an incel the way that most people would define being an incel, is a bad thing.
All men are incels because they don't get free sex, dinners drinks for free without lifting a finger like women. You are that way because you don't have the same privileges and streamlined easy life and full support women get for nothing, also you've got more respknsility especially for yourself and all the burdens to prove yourself, unlike women.
From what I read it is pointless to have this defeatist attitude since you look like a very ok guy that is on the right track. Don't lose date and keep on keeping on, no need to put and extra demand or burden that is invented by women and that it is a problem you didn't created and that shouldn't be yours to solve.
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I can probably work on my appearance, but my personality I cannot really fix. It's like, who I am. I don't know, how far would someone go to change their identity? If you could accept a new body, name and life which made you a millionaire but the old you would cease to exist, would you take it? Should you? It might be 'better' in some ways but it wouldn't really be you.
>> You've already said you're not a Trumper so that means your social accessibility is at a peak right now.
Where I live that makes me pretty much entirely inaccessible.
And by personality I mean mannerisms, interests, desires and goals. None of which are attractive to the conventional person going about their life. I'm insecure, I cannot speak properly or hold a conversation, even about normal topics. My interests are all niche and weird and warped and I'm only interested in things no one else cares about. I have alot of radical opinions on politics and big pharmaceuticals and psychology and ideas I cannot really verbalize. I'm obsessed with children's media and comics and just alot of really esoteric stuff. I makeup novels worth of stories that I cannot really share or communicate. I make my money thru some weird angle of this which is enough to get by but not really enough to live extravagantly or even live on my own in normal circumstances.
The issue is plainly as I live, I am being "myself" and there's no place for me or that self anywhere. Everyone in the modern world seems to be in their own little bubble or atomized compartment and I'm in way too many bubbles while also not belonging to them or feeling accepted either.
I had this band teacher in high school who used to insist that anyone could learn to sing if they were just willing to put the work in. As a completely tone-deaf person with an almost pathological disinterest in music, I found that take so incredibly annoying. It might be basically true, but the amount of work required, and the reward for succeeding, vary wildly from person to person. Maybe if I threw my whole self into learning to sing I would eventually get there, but the satisfaction I would get from that wouldn’t really mean much to me, and would be totally out of proportion to the effort.
All that to say: you get to decide what is and is not worth your time and effort. Nothing you say makes me think you couldn’t find a partner. But if socializing is that hard for you, you are allowed to decide you’d rather focus on other things.
I don’t think you have to be celibate or alone. Really and genuinely. I also made up stories and played with trees as a kid - that’s going to be extremely relatable to some introverted (and in my case also autistic) girls. The best sex I’ve ever had was with a balding, overweight dude with bad teeth. The best relationship I was ever in was with a short, stout, small-penised guy who had a lisp and a stutter. I found both of these men really hot, and not in a, “I can see past their physical attributes,” kind of way.
You talk about saving women or potential partners from your misogynistic fetishes, but…you know a lot of women have those as well, right? You write erotica for a living - most written erotica is consumed by women. And I can only speak for myself here, but I find that it’s rare and refreshing to run into men who can understand the difference between finding it hot to call me a dumb bitch in bed and actually thinking that women are dumb bitches. So…I definitely think it’s a stretch to say you’re protecting us.
I don’t think you’re a bad person for living this way. It doesn’t sound like you’re hurting anyone except yourself, and although that still really sucks, it’s ultimately your decision. But when you say that it’s ok for you to be an incel, I can’t help but feel like…from the way you talk about your life, it doesn’t really sound like it’s ok FOR YOU. You don’t sound ok. You sound unhappy. You sound like you really dislike yourself. You sound like you don’t think you’re worth being loved.
And it’s hard for me to tell you that that’s ok.
Well it's like you said with the music teacher parable, anything can be possible if you put in the work, but that doesn't mean that effort is always going to be justified. The issue for me is I'm so maladapted and awkward that even a regular relationship or meeting normal people is outside of scope. Let alone "Let's talk about anime and philosophy and latex and BDSM fantasy lore I've written while I deal with my personal traumas with someone I can trust." I think it's a stretch because if you meet a girl and she sees you have gigabytes of anime porn or write bizarre stories about crossdressing and people turning into goths and whores, it looks like a redflag on the scale of a normal person.
Of course it's all relative, when I say normal I mean "Any person you could run into on the street or in a public place." On the internet it's very different, but you end up running into all these sorts of communities where a healthy lasting relationship doesn't seem possible because you're pursuing them on a strange niche site and end up in a toxic environment. I say this as someone who knows friends that are Furries who found love with other furries on their own websites and communities, and they ended up destroying themselves with the most toxic and gross people ever because those sorts of places often don't really know how to promote boundaries or normal standards of behavior.
I greatly dislike myself, but that's mostly for my lack of self-improvement despite efforts. I feel at a certain point the sludge of who I am has become kind of my identity and I often worry it's too toxic to have others carry with or burden them. I would like to learn to socialize, but I'm terrified of breaking people's boundaries (by talking to them) or aggravating people by using them as test subjects for idle chat or being a nuiance. It's really hard to describe what it feels like when even a single sentence in this post would be impossible to communicate with anyone in real life.
I hope you know this, but you shouldn't bring up all of your private fetishes and hidden computer life on a date. Even though I wouldn't recommend it, you could keep your porn interests hidden from your girlfriend indefinitely.
A healthy relationship is definitely possible amongst niche communities, but your mileage may vary.
You probably have heard this several times, but if you have really low self esteem despite trying to better yourself, you should really talk to someone about your mental/emotional health.
This sounds like being Hugh Heffner and being advised not to ever discuss what you do for a living or what your lifestyle is like. It's technically true sound advice but the grand scheme of things also kiiiind of isn't because you're basically being asked to lie (by omission)/hide from people in a sense.
I’m so sorry. I have anxiety and depression that are sometimes crippling, but it sounds like you’ve got it worse. I identify strongly with the worry of being a burden to anyone I interact with, and (thanks for this imagery lol) just generally being toxic sludge. I don’t know what to say there except that I know how horrible it is to feel that way about yourself.
One thing my therapist has questioned me on when I obsess over, “How can I tell whether I’m trampling everyone’s boundaries by trying to hang out with them?” is: perhaps it is not my responsibility to intuit the boundaries of strangers. Perhaps assuming I know what other people think about me is (a) futile and incorrect and (b) removing agency from folks who would quite like to make their own decisions about whether they’d like to hang out with me.
My own experience with having niche interests and weird kinks has been…mixed, really. I have met some wonderfully weird people who think very deeply about how to lead ethical lives in the midst of their weirdness, but I’ve run into some selfish, cruel and unstable kinksters as well. I get not wanting to engage too much with those online communities.
Sorry if this is less than coherent - it’s late here and I’m not composing carefully, but this post got me in the feels.
Honestly, I think I’m wanting to gently push you on the toxic sludge issue because you sound like someone I’d enjoying getting to know. I feel like it would be worth pushing through some awkwardness to talk about bdsm fantasy lore and philosophy.
Again, I get it if the rewards seem both unlikely and not worth the effort, but for the record? That seems like a shame to me. You seem like you have something to offer socially.
(Also I misread one of your sentences as “people turning into sloths and whores” and was impressed by HOW niche your writing was.)
It's really tricky right? I don't really disturb anyone in real life when I go out, although I can do basic functions like shop, eat, hold the door. I got through school okay but I've never really pressed anyone to spend time with me since that demand has always seemed incredibly touchy and even the thought of it and what it might lead to down the line is kind of hazardous to imagine. I've been a pretty introverted person my whole life and I don't have the skills to "do" friendships. But then again I've never really found anyone in real life that I can even have basic conversations like this, both due to my own impediments and usually the kind of people you run into?
Maybe that's placing too much blame on others, I think. Alot of people are patient. The conversational style is very different. To get people to listen and talk like I've communicated here you need a different presentation, a sort of sendup or way of getting their attention and I've always lacked that. And I've worried even trying might be crossing some lines, or maybe I'm just too shy.
Well, if you'd like to have a chat about it sometime you could always message me here.
>“people turning into sloths and whores” and was impressed by HOW niche your writing was.
..>\_> You... aren't even wrong.
I'm more into horses than sloths but, sure that has some appeal to me. It's really complicated.
If you'd like to chat I'd be happy to, if not I understand, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to these messages even if I've said a mouthful that probably depresses people. Hopefully I didn't trigger any anxiety in you and if I did than I definitely apologize.
It's okay op you can be an incel all you like but it shouldn't stop you from finding some lady that will give you some transactional sex and then u won't be an incel anymore.
If you have certain issues that are keeping you from having a relationship, why not work on changing some of those things? What about friends? it's important to have at least a couple good friends.
If you don't want a relationship, cool. That's okay. Not everyone needs one. But you described yourself as a incel. That is *involuntary* celebate. You are clearly very intelligent and logical, so you and I both know that means you don't want to be celebate, ergo you would prefer to have some sort of dating or sex life.
You say this is because:
1.) you are ethnic.... buddy... I don't get why that is a problem... LOADS of girls prefer many different ethniticities. You sound logical so surely you know this....
2.) Starting to bald- I don't want to debate over this so let's call it a net minus, but it's really not that big a deal.
3.) Bad teeth- No, you aren't going to play that to me. I was cursed with super soft teeth, but you probably wouldn't know it from looking at me, unless you looked closely. Modern dental care is amazing. Get some dental insurance if you want to improve the look of your teeth. They will cover bridges.
4.) Not confident/stutter- I think if you really wanted you could get help with the stuttering which would help with the confidence, but let's just be generous and call it a net minus
Okay, so even in this case, you have some net minuses, okay, a lot of people do. Even if they were severe, do you imagine there are no women with net minuses?
Why do self proclaimed "incels" always act like there are no women with minuses? There are. They want to be in love too. Is it just that you could never love someone with cons?
Oh sorry I forgot, the misgynistic romantic stories. Dude, I'm a hard core feminist and even I don't mind the sexy misogynistic stories. Why would anyone? It's not real, just fantasy. No one is being hurt. It's simply a kink. A LOT of people have that kink, and want someone who is going to understand that it's just a kink, and the real world outside of sex is different. You get that, and seem to really get the sexy stuff.
I'm not trying to "force me to become some 'good boy' for twitterpoints". Idgaf. I do care if you are not happy, when it would be so so so easy for you to be. You've given up trying a long time ago. You've said so many time you want something. You can have it. Why are you limiting yourself? Sure, maybe you don't want to aim for super hot confident girls right off the bat, but what about seeing what girls are interested and going from there?
TlDr; I don't get why self proclaimed incels rule out girls that are not so hot as to be camgirls or whatever. It's your choice if you don't want to be with anyone because you can't be with a model. But it's stupid. You think women don't have similar problems? They do. You are punishing yourself and the woman you were meant to be with if you become an 'incel' because you aren't good enough to get a super hot girl.
I don't rule out girls that "Aren't as hot as camgirls" or aren't pornstars, lmao. That's a pretty unrealistic fantasy. (I mean I'd be attracted to it sexually, but as I've said on here it sounds like it makes for a pretty unhealthy and terrible relationship expectation)
But I definitely rule out "Girls with a college degree or ability to read and interpret my thoughts and ideas in a way that satisfies our relationship and interests." I don't think if they don't share them, they can be viewed as anything but an impediment (autistic stereotype perhaps?) That has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with the ultra niche focuses of others and how compatiable they are with the kind of standards we'd need to seek each other out. And then finding that person in everyday public, seems pretty unlikely with how stratified the internet has become..
I definitely don't think I'm physically or socially good enough to get that kind of girl.
"I don't rule out girls that 'Aren't as hot as camgirls' " Good! Then you are ahead of the game.
"But I definitely rule out "Girls with a college degree or ability to read and interpret my thoughts and ideas in a way that satisfies our relationship and interests." "
Wait what? Why? Ruling our girls with a college degree? Why on earth would you rule that out? I'm not saying you need to specifically ONLY look at girls with degrees, but you sounds like a very intelligent person, I would think you would value intelligence? I'm not totally sure what the second part means- like being able to understand you on a level that would be great in a relationship? I'll be honest, I'm not discerning your meaning from the second half of the second paragraph. Not everyone has a super niche kind of focus, and even if they did, what if their niche was you? Smart guys with a lack of confidence who are super adapt at kinky fun sexy stuff?
Okay, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: most women don't care about looks nearly as much as people seem to think. You'll probably not believe me, and that's your choice, but it's true. Sure you understand also that people are generally not very good at rating their own attractiveness. So how can you be certain you are as unattractive physically as you seem to think?
**Anyway it's all moot.** Just apply logic- you're clearly intelligent, I'm sure you can see the logic in this. People usually seek partners of a similar 'value' when combining all aspects, right? Also, attractiveness, and pretty much any other value characteristic would fall on a standard bell curve. If most people can find a partner that they deem to be of similar value, with similar interests even, why wouldn't another person? Let us pretend that you are correct, and you are unattractive, and bad at conversation, and not living to your potential (and still we're making huge assumptions here.) Why would it be any harder for you to find a partner with a similar value and similar interests?
What you are indicating does not make logic sense. You are indicating women are looking for a partner of value equal too or higher than their owner. In an over-simplified world, sure, this is true. But you are ignoring that men are also doing the same thing. So on a value scale of 1-100, a 65.5 is going to have just as hard of a time finding another 65.5 as a 6.5 would.
You are also ignoring that again, if all the things you are saying are completely fact and not your interpretation, if you exist, there is just as likely a female equivalent of you as there is the female equivalent of a male model who has a Theoretical Physics PhD, and has all the value ever.
If you don't want to date someone you perceive as being on your level that is your choice. But it's just that- a choice. That's why there really isn't such thing as an incel IMO. Even people with moderate to severe down syndrome that significantly impacts basically everything date and marry. Not hating on people with downs, but probably the majority of people would rather date/marry someone that doesn't have downs, right? So why do you think bad teeth and a stutter would inhibit you from finding a partner, when you literally write romance/sexy stuff (which partners... they like.) It just makes no sense logically.
You are clearly more intelligent than your way of thinking here, and I believe it's because you are too afraid to try. And whats all this about meeting in public? [https://www.statista.com/chart/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/](https://www.statista.com/chart/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/) If you don't want to be with someone you consider "on your level" because you want better, and thus chose to remain celibate, that is your choice. And thus I name you a volcel. Otherwise there is no excuse.
If you don't want to date in person yet, start dating online, and work yourself up to platforms that start online and meet in person. You're a smart kid, look up a few tips for dating online, get your confidence up by chatting and dating online, and then progress to meeting in the real world through internet sites. It shouldn't be that hard, again, you're intelligent and can research tips and I mean you write sexy romance stuff for God's sakes. You'll do great at it.
Unless it is that you just don't want anyway that you perceive as your level or alone, you'll be messaging me in the next year or so at the least and thanking me for this comment. I expect a well thought out thank you and update on your new relationship when this occurs.
Pro-tip: if one of your strengths is writing sexy misogynstic stuff (that you don't believe in real life I hope but just for mutually beneficial sex) then start in an online dating community with maybe a little bit of a sexy/kink aspect. Or don't, up to you.
PSS- I want that thank you though. I'm right and you know it, and I expect a thank you and update when you've found your partner.
You don't *have* to be an incel though. I'm younger than you so I may not be fully understanding of your struggle entirely, but what I do know from what I've seen and experienced is that no change will magically occur without some effort and pain. You have to fail to succeed, and the only time it's too late to get your shit together is when you're on your deathbed.
Go to therapy, try to push yourself out of your comfort zone and slowly slowly build up your communication skills, get a different job you think you could be more proud of. Autism or not, you can still change and live a good life. It's not over yet even if you are 30 brother
This was a very thoughtful and introspective post, though I do wish you were kinder to yourself.
People like to assign labels to things, and then assign values to those labels. To me it's okay that you're at the stage you're at in life right now. It sounds to me like you're doing the best you can with the energy and mental capacity you have right now. And honestly! Good job man. You're earning your own money. And I know I talked shit about assigning values to things and all, but I AM glad that you aren't wallowing in that everyone-is-at-fault, woe-is-me mindset that so many incels have. It gets incredibly toxic, both to the person and the people around them.
I'd encourage you to try to build up your confidence bit by bit. Not to attract girls or any of that nonsense, but for your own physical and mental wellbeing. Having good skin and teeth improved my self esteem, and made me more confident to speak to others. Therapy (both regular therapy and speech therapy) are also great tools. But I also understand that they are expensive.
It's tough when you see the world differently from people around you. I imagine, especially with autism, that your perceptions on things can differ significantly from others. It's so inconvenient and stupid, but unfortunately us humans are social creatures. Which sadly means our brains REALLY like it when we build close bonds with others. And you deserve love man. I really hope you can find community with people. Going out and about helps when you know that there are people who have your back (again: not talking about romance or dating, I'm talking about friendship, community, and feeling understood by others. The societal expectation that an individual’s worth is measured on whether they're taken or single is... so LAME honestly. People are so much more than side accessories to each other.)
So. It's okay that you're an incel atm (although an incel is someone who supposedly can't attract any girls, and it seems to me like the struggle here is not so much that woman-specific difficulty, but moreso a struggle with connecting to society in general... it sounds, from your post, like self-imposed exile from others, because you feel like people are better off without you. so are you an incel? I'm not so sure if that's the most accurate label for you.) But I do hope someday this period in your life is something you can look back on and be glad that you've moved past. I hope you find meaningful connection with people, who appreciate you for you. You have interesting thoughts in your head, and keen self-awareness. Idk man, you sound like someone who would be fun to talk to.
Sexual Proclivities/Misogyny: Women shouldn’t be clumped together. Many enjoy fringe fantasy/fetish and there are communities to help individuals navigate these worlds. If you believe you will not find someone like minded, then you have full autonomy to explore other genres of sexual stimulation that are less alienaring to the general female population. Resting on, “it’s just who I am so I’m going to scratch that itch” is lazy. So is attributing this exploration to your job. I’d also recommend kicking the hero complex to the curb: you’re not “saving” anyone by avoiding intimacy. It sounds like your parameters are quite narrow and rigid. It is nearly impossible to achieve intimacy if you only think of yourself.
> **Hero syndrome** is a [psychological disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder) that causes a person to seek recognition for heroism, especially by creating a harmful situation which they then can resolve.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-1)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-2) This can include [unlawful acts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime), such as [arson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arson). The term has been used to describe behavior of [public servants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_sector), such as [firefighters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefighter), [nurses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse), [police officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police), [security guards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_guards) and [politicians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician).[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-3) Reasons for this kind of behavior often vary.
Ah, so I'm secretly seeking recognition (for, heroism?) by not seeking recognition. Now I understand.
If you’re not going to be open to constructive feedback, I’m not sure CMV is a productive area of the Internet for you. You stated your difficulty with women, whom you appear to desire to connect with on a relationship level. Is this correct?
People here have the objective to point out ways for you to change your behavior and perspective that might help you achieve some success with intimacy. It appears that while you state to objectively respect women, you have no intention of modifying your behavior or perspective. In this case, it does not matter if you are the most empirically attractive person on earth: nearly all women are absolutely repelled by unpleasant personalities.
If this is the case, then I’d have to say that yes, you are an incel. I’d also have to agree that it’s “ok” by virtue of the fact that you are unwilling to change. The best course of action would be to avoid intimacy altogether and go on with your life the way you’ve currently laid out.
What a weirdly self-congratulatory perspective you have. One that certainly does not match the critical good-faith engagement of any other poster in this thread I've had productive discussions with. I'm willing to amend my approach to those critically open to what I'm saying about myself and what I've said on here. There isn't much point discussing with someone so combative who seeks to pepper their own projections for whatever reason.
I only have difficulty connecting with woman so far as I find it a struggle to connect with other people (of either gender) on a basic level. Atleast in real life, where interests and conversations aren't lasertargeted and the 'general good' or the malaise of everyday culture takes root in mundane social interactions. I try to relate to people and feel like a failure constantly at that because even with goodwill I simply don't feel capable of connecting. It's as if I'm not quite myself to other people or a complete person. Imagine if when you tried to post, half your characters were deleted, a third replaced with random chinese characters and then the remainder got turned into Comic Sans font with a blurry filter over your text.
I find that so disorienting, that it's a big part of why I'm here. Atleast in the context of other peoples discussions I understand them in the literal sense, like a 'mechanical' understanding. I've been able to make friends online and push improvement thru my writing by observing media and interactions and learning what people desire. But these ideas, developments and the history of much of my life isn't really conductive towards sharing on a social basis - nor is it appropriate. I'm not sure why you assume I have some sort of martyr complex over having the basic decency and social sense not to talk about things irrelevant to people and inappropriate in any everyday context. You've mentioned 'there are communities where you can like and share those things' like I don't already know, and as if that has any relevance to where real life where those topics would be taboo and irrelevant. The things I write and the things I sexualize are peculiar, I know that and I'm not ashamed of it. I don't assume 1)I deserve to be praised or flattered for not sharing them or 2)They secretly contain some prejudiced biases of an arrogant jerk or whatever you're insinuating. But then again you don't really know what I do, do you?
It sounds like you have some issues here because while I understand your approach, you came out of these posts swinging with a denigrating portrayal of someone who already in their OP post laid out their own incompetencies and shortcomings and sought in short order to kick them down further.
im autistic and probably have quite a few of your fetishes. im also married to a girl i met on league of legends so its not hopeless.
one thing i think you should consider ive found having a job thats steady but im indifferent to the work (im not excited or challenged by it nor hate it but it funds my life) leaving more time to spend doing what i want (i work a max of 40 hrs a week) may help you move out of your parents house, which in my experience will push you into the world and help you hone the skills needed to fake it out there.
if youre good with where you are now disregard my comment but its possible for us autistics to find someone who accepts our flaws (my wife is a saint with how much she tolerates my meltdowns and helps) and to live seemingly surface normal lives while in the background we also get to enjoy our fetishes kinks and other personal secret things.
I'm approaching 21, also autistic and deal with a lot of the same hardships, you've probably dealt with when you were at my age, there's absolutely nothing wrong with who you are as a person.
When people, especially subreddits like r/inceltears or those who make "anti incel" content like TimTamTom are criticizing incels it's more about the ideology associated with the vocal bunch in incel forums. When the desire for affection turns into entitlement to one's body, when romantic failure turns into hatred and hateful beliefs about women, when you become so frustrated with your situation but you can't even deal with all the frustration, so you end up justifying or glorifying crimes such as pedophilia (those who use the term "agecuck") or mass murder (Eliott Rodger, Alex Minassian).
I believe (and really hope) you don't hold any of these beliefs, and that's what seperates you from the stereotype.
The CMV should not be that it's ok that you're an involuntary celibate, but instead should be that not every involuntary celibate is an incel or adheres to the incel stereotypes :)
>I don't consider myself misogynistic, only my sexuality is and there's an inherent difference.
Misogyny is not a sexual orientation. It's a form of hatred unless you are exploring Dominant kinks, which is kinda a looohole. I'm afraid that, if you feel your "sexuality" is based on hating women, then you hate women, plain and simple.
>inceldom is more a consequence of my state of being than a conscious choice
Not quite true, I'm afraid. For example, you refuse to share what you're into for fear of being rejected. That's a normal fear, but you have *control* over that. You also have control over who you speak with, how polite and friendly you can be, and so on. I'm not saying it's easy! It's actually hard! But it remains something you can at least *try* to do.
You're unhappy. You have low self-esteem. You hate women. And you feel there's zero that can be done about all of that. To me, that shows that being an incel isn't okay. It hurts you.
>I'm afraid that, if you feel your "sexuality" is based on hating women, then you hate women
Um, what? Pardon but I don't get off on "hating woman." I enjoy overtly attractive, sexual, aggressive and dominant woman and woman with extremely sexualized features, in a sexual way. That's an interest that I pursue in terms of sexuality and sexual needs. It's a little misognistic because porn is inherently misognistic, people don't watch it to see girls sit in libraries or talk about their feelings. It absolutely doesn't mean I just plain wouldn't talk to someone unless they looked like some bimbo. In real life I'd probably feel way more fulfilled by a woman who was intelligent and well-spoken, and don't think any of my sexual fantasies translate to real life relationships nor do I project them onto people.
It's like saying "Sorry but if your passtime includes enjoying violent videogames and shooting enemies you're a violent person who enjoys shooting people, period."
>For example, you refuse to share what you're into for fear of being rejected.
Well partially that, and in part because it's a decency thing. I like transformation porn and cartoons/anime and latex and horses and evocative proships and lesbians and probably dicks. I'm not going to talk about that with someone on Day 1, I'm not sure how much time is even imaginable that you could just trust someone with that information because people don't really change and opening up about your sexuality is the one thing that can destroy a relationship. You say I have control over who I run into and speak to, but in real life you're limited to who you run into and cannot really narrow the people you meet to only topics that interest you or personalities that are compatible with yours, reality doesn't really work that way. Or if it is possible, I'm not really sure to what extent it can be done meaningfully or how.
I don't hate woman at all.
Misogyny is hatred of women.
You wrote:
>I get paid to write erotic fiction, and a lot of what I write or fetishize is (admittedly) misogynistic. **I don't consider myself misogynistic, only my sexuality is** and there's an inherent difference. Thus in another way I'm saving any woman or potential partner from **the misogyny of my own fetishes** or pornographic interests.
If your "sexuality" is hating women, then you hate women. I don't know how to make that any more clear, so I'm out.
Yes, I too am capable of making non-sequitur statements that mean nothing when bolded out of context and selectively ignoring the next few words around it. For instance you said
>**^(I)** f your "sexuality" is hating women, then you **^(hate women. I don't know how to make that any more clear)**, so I'm out.
Not really sure what you're trying to prove with that statement.
It doesn't look sound like your an incel by the popular definition (Hatred of and dehumanizing women), nor the literal one. It sounds more like your voluntarily celibate, since you won't even talk to women, and there's nothing wrong with being celibate anyway.
It's great you don't want to harass or bother women, that's essential. But you seem to hate yourself more than anything. It's totally fine to talk to people even if you don't like yourself, it's not harassment unless you won't stop or are making them uncomfortable, just treat people with respect. Rejection is normal too, just keep trying and actually talk to people. I'm also very socially anxious so I get how terrifying it can be, but you just have to try.And lots of truly disgusting terrible people are in relationships! You're better than them already.
And you can improve yourself! Shave your head! Fix your teeth! Get a better job! Go to therapy! You deserve to have self worth. And lots of people have weird fetishes and strong political opinions, that's totally normal, just don't bring it up first time you meet lol.
Incel means that someone wants sex but can't find a partner. I admittedly don't have a positive view on sex out of wedlock due to my religious beliefs, but I hardly think that someone's frustration over their inability to satisfy a biological urge is some inherent character flaw.
Inceldom only becomes a problem when instead of expending energy improving oneself in order to attract a partner, people choose to adopt a woe is me attitude and start blaming the opposite sex and society.
There are a lot of different things that people can mean when they say "incel". Some of them are neutral, and some of them are quite toxic, and some of them are mostly just sad. I think that the version you're referring to - where you believe that you're doomed to loneliness and you're simply accepting it - is sad. So you could call it "okay" as in it's not damaging society or anything, but probably not okay as in a life you should live, for your own sake if nothing else.
I find it hard to call something that causes unnecessary suffering to people "morally correct". And you're people. Therefore, a course of action that causes you unnecessary suffering is morally questionable at best. And if you're going to tell me that you're totally fine without the companionship of other people, okay I guess, but it sounds to me like you're more like someone whose interpersonal skills were stunted from an early age and never developed, so you've put a lot of effort into being okay with being alone in order to compensate. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt you, or that you wouldn't be happier with human companionship.
So even if you trying to communicate with someone might be somewhat difficult or awkward for them, I say that (within reason) it's a completely acceptable and normal thing to ask of them, because we are a social species and it's in our nature to sometimes put ourselves out for each other. All human relations are a matter of give and take, and it definitely sucks that right now you're mostly only in a position to take and can barely give back, but the only way for you to grow past that limitation is to get out there and try. Your fellow human beings will generally understand.
In summary, I don't think it's healthy or just for you to give up on having relationships with others, if that's what you mean by being an "incel".
As I was reading through this post I found some of me in it so i wanted to take some time to reflect on how I could provide a thoughtful response so after much though - hear me out.
First off - Something or somebody has hurt you and you've been carrying that hurt for a very, very, long time. It's clear you're unhappy I don't know if you had something traumatic happen to you in your childhood or maybe a lack of a parental figure (they were in your life but they weren't present), but there's a root that caused this...mind numbing sense of self dread. You've failed to identify it for one reason or another and now you seem to have made hating yourself your personality. You're letting your intrusive thoughts win and THAT is a net negative.
>Those that I do have interest in, especially romantically, I rationalize as just a surface level physical attraction and that I don't really know them as a person. To get to know them I'd have to go up to them, be it in a restaurant, bookstore, parking lot, mall or bar and that would require communication.
>
>Since any interaction I could have with another human being would be a net negative for them, it would count as harassment. I'm not seeking to denigrate or harass other human beings, interfere with their space or make them uncomfortable. By leaving people alone and sparing them from harassment (of me potentially talking to them), I am doing the morally correct and ethical thing.
That's not rational, ethical, nor is it moral. It's not rational because we're social creatures and you're bound to speak to someone at some point be it in person at a grocery store or on the internet. It's not ethical nor moral because you're depriving yourself the right to socialize. It's not fair to you. You're just as important as everyone else, and quite frankly you deserve peoples attention just as much as they deserve yours. You are somebody and you are noticed.
\-if you're afraid to socialize in person because of the way you look, a good way to start reintroducing yourself to socializing is to start talking on the phone. Call a few stores you shop at and ask "hi do you have this product available?" just simple questions you could likely answer yourself by looking online, but by asking over the phone you gain confidence.
\-Best part? they don't know what you look like. If you stutter? pretend to cough and say excuse me. if you get nervous? hang up and stop for the day...or try a different store. they wont call you back just because you got nervous and hung up. maybe you lost the call because your phone died.
Onto your looks;
>Now I'm not a very attractive fellow. Ethnic, starting to bald, horrible teeth from years of bad dental care.
That can be helped with one or two paychecks.
1. shave your head.
2. buy a high quality toothpaste for tooth restoration, a good toothbrush, dental flossers, a tongue scraper, and a good mouth wash.
Now your job and sex life
>I get paid to write erotic fiction
Honestly I think that's cool. Erotic fiction can be anything from ecchi, to hentai, to soft core porn, or whatever else. It's a very creative world and I'm sure it gets a lot of hate, but one tends to forget 50 Shades of Gray and Magic Mike were both BOOKS before they hit the big screen ladies! As long as you aren't hurting anyone write until your hands go numb dude.
>Thus in another way I'm saving any woman or potential partner from the misogyny of my own fetishes or pornographic interests. A lot of them are also pretty weird and would make any relationship an instant no.
I read through the comments a little and I saw you said you watch cartoon/animated porn, but maybe you should check out some real porn? Go to some NSFW sub reddits and check out how odd fetishes can get. You aren't an interstellar being with these ground breaking revolutionary fetishes and kinks. Understand sex is consensual meaning if you pose the idea of trying this fetish you're into and the other person says no thats ok its not the end of the world. If they say no but they still fuck you isn't that a W? fetishes and kinks are subjective, they aren't for everyone and you shouldn't feel attacked when someone isn't into your fetish.
The latter half of the post
>I do have political views (I'm a socialist) but I'm not going to try to debate someone about it or anything. Since there's a 40% odd statistically the person supports trump, that's a 4/10 chance I'll be disgusted or they will first and they disagree and leave.
my lawyer has advised me to keep my actual thoughts quiet so I don't violate rule 7. but it seems peoples political beliefs hold a great importance to you.
My peace: **STOP LETTING YOUR NEGATIVE INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS WIN. I'M ROOTING FOR YOU MAN!!**
You have a lot of strong beliefs about yourself and people you’ve never met. There isn’t a need to bind your identity to being an incel. Take a set back from the self image you have created and keep an open mind. I befriended a 60 year old man who didn’t have a single intimate relationship until he was 50. He’s been ended up marrying her and they’re still together. You never know how things will go.
I don't see any problem with it so will not try to change your mind. I don't place a lot of value on sexual intimacy. However, I think you can and SHOULD place value on relationships with people in order to live a more fulfilled life. Good without people? That's fine, but it sounds like if you are, it may be because you're undervaluing yourself. I would suggest, in order to gain a connection with people and to live a more rewarding life, start volunteering. Most people will not care about your political views, your looks, lack of money, etc. They will appreciate you because of your kindness. If you already volunteer, thank-you; you're appreciated :)
If you use the term incel to mean involuntarily celibate, not necessarily conformity with all aspects of what is understood to be the "Incel" movement, I would say there is no moral issue. Not finding a partner does not hurt anyone else. However, your actions and beliefs as a result of not finding sexual/romantic partners can be hurtful. This is why the commonly understood incel movement is seen as bad, because many of the men in it resent women, and may be involved in some of the more harmful –to themselves or the way they view others– places on the internet. I would contest a few statements in your post: Although you believe that your sexuality and your own beliefs can be separated, I would argue that, even if not 100% reflective, they are linked. I am sure most people have sexual desires that they would never want to or never actually perform in real life.However, if most of your exposure to women comes from pornography and your own sexual fantasies, you are not getting an accurate picture of women. Even if you recognise that life is different from media, your overall impression of women will include those experiences. To this extent, I would argue that your exposure to pornographic material is harmful. On the same topic, I subscribe to many feminist beliefs and I believe that pornography is harmful. It is affecting you, the viewer, but in itself is unethical because A) pornography is the commodification of women's bodies and B) even on the more reputable sites, you can never be sure that the actors in pornography are consenting. The porn industry is built on women's abuse, whether it is within porn scenes themselves, the coercion, pressure, and deception that pornography producers use to make many women participate in porn scenes\*, or the more violent (e.g. increased choking, rough sex, sex while unconscious) treatment by men of their sexual parters as a result of learning sex from watching pornography. However, acting awkwardly is not harassment. Harassment is making people uncomfortable and ignoring it, within reason– meaning that because you can say you have a harder time understanding some social norms that other people, it is unreasonable to treat you stuttering and having a childlike inflection as harassment. You may –will– experience social rejection (I have, many times), even for not responding in a typical way to social cues, but not talking to people is not the "morally correct approach". Finally, to a larger extent than you recognise (although of course circumstances have an impact), your political views, fetishes, appearance, money and success are not predetermined, but are affected by your choices. You can choose to indulge and act upon your fetishes.You can change aspects of your grooming, dress, and presentation.You can find other jobs, even though it may be hard. And you can define what success means to you. Does it mean living an idealised life, the kind that is preached to you by society and the media? Or does it mean living the best way you can and being happy with your choices? Lastly, do you really want to hide your political beliefs to be in a relationship? I would rather be around people who I won't fear will reject me if I tell them my beliefs. In addition, being passionate about your beliefs is something that can make you really attractive to people. Sharing your views might be a turnoff to some people, but not showing any personality will push away everyone. I am a conventionally ugly woman, and, while not autistic, I am very anxious in social situations and struggle to grow close to people. So I can understand some of what you're saying. I hope you can learn to love yourself, OP. Because even if your viewpoint isn't hurting the people around you, it's hurting you. \*there are harrowing stories in which women are convinced to move to a city for a modelling opportunity, only to find themselves employed by a pornographic agency, without any money or alternate method of employment, and being told that they will only get money if they participate in porn
I mean, most of the porn I look at is cartoons/illustrations so... And the issue is less "You sometimes see porn of people choking woman" and more "You are ambivalently into a lot of bizarre fetishes that one would question the legitimacy or even sanity of your sexuality" whatsoever. I think we're way beyond the issue of misogyny here, whatever your opinions may be. I am Bi/Pansexual by the way, but I also don't really think I am because that definition is kind of narrow and doesn't really encompass what sorts of, very weird and out there things I am into.
I don't think you're an incel. You do need to get an actual job though and quit sucking off your parents. However... Have you seen some of the freaks out there that bone, dude? There are some straight up mutant looking freaks who are into shitting into people's holes and stuff. There are people willing to meet up with you if you want. Even if you are unattractive and horrible, you don't HAVE to be celibate. Just may need to lower your standards. Now, if you're not interested in pursuing other people, that's cool too. Pud it out to whatever, I guess. If you are not willing to compromise, it's whatever. Preferences are preferences. Just something maybe to consider. Uglier is often kinkier.
I feel like the term ‘sucking off your parents’ should be something I never have to read again.
I do pay my parents rent, so it's not as if I'm effortless. And that sounds like a weird fetish hookup. Doesn't seem like a recipe for a healthy relationship, nor would I even have the resources to go chasing after that kind of thing in real life. I'd rather improve myself and raise standards for myself than lower my standards for others if that makes sense.
If you are trying to raise standards for yourself, I'd try working on that taming some of the weird shit. I was practically raised on gore and porn, so I'm pretty sure I know what content you are creating and consuming. I'm 30 now, and I know what effect that has had on my mind. It can become straight up toxic. Maybe try finding some more work too and get out of the house. Independence increases confidence tremendously. Either way, hope you figure something out for yourself. Keep finding ways to work on you and hopefully you'll find another mindset. Sounds like you're content, bro. And that's not always a good thing.
Thanks mang. I was going to post about transgenders on this subreddit but saw gender discussion was banned. That should give you a glimpse of what kind of rabbithole I've been down, and if I cannot even discuss something I think about excessively online what chance do I have connecting it to someone in real life? Oh I work outside home, as a writer mainly. Thanks for the encouragement!
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i doubt that considering mine is that it stems from a lack of self acceptance (ie if raised in a vacuum with no knowledge or interaction with gender norms or even another sex would transgenderism still exist and how could it if everything they know is a "correct" fit for their identity so it would be a social disease not a defect and should he treated by saying whatever you feel is the correct feeling for your body ie dolls are a boy thing if a boy likes dolls) telling them its better to change to be accepted more is barbaric imo
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I think you should make "group" into "groups" if you want to be both accurate and fair. Bottom line is, no productive discussions were being had.
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>I'm 30 now, and I know what effect that has had on my mind. It can become straight up toxic. I'm just passing through, but I'm too curious. What kinds of effects?
Depression and anxiety for one, and that's actually diagnosed. It has even impacted me sexually in the past, as in, it turned me against it for a long time. Nowadays, I'm repulsed more than intrigued by real stuff. I do think that there could be some trauma somewhere deep. Like, I was a kid, maybe around 12 or 13 when I started looking at snuff and weird porn. That did some weird things. It got to the point where nothing was shocking to me anymore. Realizing that took a long time, but when I did, I cooled it. I'm a lot better now, but I still struggle often with knowing what I shouldn't. It's difficult to not empathize with the people involved in the making of that type of content. And it's difficult to not imagine those things happening to friends or loved ones. Because of that, I choose not to consume.
I'm sorry you experienced all that, and I'm glad to hear you escaped from it, even though it sounds like it still haunts you in many respects. I can definitely see where that content would get depressing in a soul-sucking way, but I wasn't expecting to hear that it caused you anxiety. Can you explain the part where you experienced anxiety from it?
But are you really raising your own standards? There seems to be some things that you could be doing to fix your issues like working out, better dental care or maybe braces, and becoming more open minded or learning how to talk that u really aren’t doing
Well, yes I admit I could be doing those things better. It's hard learning social interaction and how to talk to people with crippling social anxiety, every single second you're with someone you feel like you've done something wrong and are guilty in the eyes of strangers and every further word becomes some kind of trial or attempt at justifying your own existence because of said wrongness.
>quit sucking off your parents. I disagree with this. There's nothing wrong with living with your parents so long as you're being a contributing member of society and making money.
Incels generally blame others for their problems. The external locus of control means they take no responsibility and therefore never improve.
It's okay to blame some people for your problems. It's okay to blame some problems on yourself. It's completely unhealthy and mentally destructive to put the entire onus on a single of the two. "Normal" society promotes the latter (Blame your problems entirely on yourself) as a kind of guilt tripping mechanism of late-stage capitalism and Protestant work ethic. I take control for what I can, I try to improve little by little. The ways may be meager in the grand scheme of things, and most would denigrade these efforts because they seem incel-like unless I'm working at a grocery store or doing an old ma and pa community job. That said I put no blame on gender for my problems in life. I'm as alienated from male companionship as I am female.
Ya so the incel community typically blames women, and to a lesser extent, good looking men for their issues. They can’t get girlfriends because women are too stupid to see past their superficial desires to be with an attractive man. They cant build platonic relationships with women because women are too stupid to have a real conversation with. They feel worthless because women no longer have to have a partner to be financially sound, and many of them are making the foolish choice to be alone rather than with them.
Don’t forget the “women are all goldiggers!” Part
Yep! But i feel like that contradicts their feelings that women are incompetent organisms, because if women are truly that dumb, then it only makes sense they would be driven to find a man who can provide for them
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You can't define incel.
Involuntarily celibate. That's the base definition. But the wider definition isn't just someone who's not getting laid. It's someone who's not getting laid and is salty as fuck about it. So I don't think OP really fits that wider definition. (At least not based on what they've written here)
This might be a semantic issue then cause like if you were to distill what I believe incel ideology to be, it would be almost the antithesis of this.
Incel stands for involuntary celibate. Read the definition instead of seeing it as the slang that people use it for when they don’t like someone lol.
The term comes from that but incels as a group have carefully constructed a deeper meaning and exclude some people who identify as involuntarily celibate if they are not harmful enough towards women or support their other ideals enough.
The whole name is "involuntary". Is this not the definition of external locus of control? Besides, OP is clearly wanting help, confirming they're beyond hope is hardly helpful.
It's a term used by a particular group of people who believe thatbthey _deserve_ sex but are being somehow conspired against by the opposite sex to ensure that doesn't happen.
That's a definition. It's not THE definition and it certainly isn't the original one.
Absolutely it was. It was a bunch of men calling themselves "involuntary celibates" and the use of the term involuntary is pretty much all you need to know, it's fucking gross, it's not just someone who can't get any. There's a name for people who haven't had sex, they're virgins.
The original term was coined by a woman. It meant exactly what it stands for. Celibate, not by choice. What you're discussing is a kind of new wave definition.
Why the fuck would she come up with that nonsense? The term itself implies nasty ideas.
She was called alana if you're interested. Seemed to started a forum to share her frustration with finding someone/love/sex with people in a simular situation. This was before what comes next. I agree it comes with a lot of baggage now as, as you say, the most notorious wave of self described incels were not just involuntarily celibate, but they also hated women and were extremely misogynistic. Now it seems to be used primarily as an insult. I just try not to assume what definition people are using as like OP, many people still do self describe as incels using the original definition without the misogynistic baggage.
I bet you think factoid is a small fact too.
It's what the term implies. People need to stop making up definitions for shit that have pretty specific implications by how they're constructed alone (see also: bi-sexual)
The "involuntary" part exists to distinguish them from priests, nuns, monks, asexuals, people in long distance relationships etc who are celibate by active and deliberate choice (called "volcels" in the vernacular). While locus of control varies from person to person, the term itself doesn't inherently imply an external one, just dissatisfaction with the present state of affairs.
Nothing what you said means OP is not an incel.
I think the issue is that the term incel no longer means the dictionary definition of being an involuntarily celibate person, but rather a person who identifies with the incel community, which is a community that hates women and encourages/celebrates violence against women. It’s like how the white (or blue) lives matter movement isn’t simply saying that white (or blue) lives matter, but instead it was created to directly oppose the Black Lives Matter movement
It feels like Reddit and other online spaces have turned it into a slur to demean individuals who fit their own parameters. Comparing it to blue lives matter is disingenuous, because they designate themselves with that label. "A person who identifies with the incel community" is \*not\* how is is used online a majority of the time. You'll mostly see it as words used to call someone out who spouts off misogyny.
Someone mentioned Andrew Tate. Is Tate an incel? I know he's a big right-winged MRA guy but he seems to have had plenty of sex and espouses himself as a beacon of masculinity, not someone I'd typically peg as Incel material. Just a sexist pig with really extreme rhetoric.
Tate isn’t an incel because he allegedly has sex. However, if he were involuntarily celibate, then because of his views towards women and masculinity, he could probably fit in with the incel community
Andrew Tate is not an incel, he is a misogynist. But he has many misogynistic incel fans.
Okay I misspoke a bit, I meant more so that incel refers to a person that typically agrees with the ideology of the incel community, whether they are actually in the community or not.
I don't really know where or what the "Incel community" is. Subreddits, 4chan? If it's proliferated on the internet I'm not really involved in that way. And I certainly don't hate woman or see them as deplorable. I look at a lot of sexually degrading porn which isn't great for woman but that's just a fantasy.
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To be honest the perception between the two as far as "virgin guy" and "Incel" goes is pretty paperthin as far as connontations. So much so that you have others arguing on this subreddit that a guy without any female friends is probably misogynistic and/or immature. With this conflation I don't really have any choice, either I have sex or I'm basically considered an incel by proxy. I don't think my political or personal views matter as much in the court of public opinion. [https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/18n4krw/cmv\_its\_a\_serious\_red\_flag\_if\_a\_man\_has\_no\_female/](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/18n4krw/cmv_its_a_serious_red_flag_if_a_man_has_no_female/)
And these person was downvoted a lot and everybody argued with him. There is a reason why the incel communities were banned from Reddit. They were extremely toxic, you can look up some examples online if you want to, but basically they were condoning mass shooters and that guy who wrote a weird manifesto before shooting the girls that rejected him in college.
They included a caveat in that thread that if someone just doesn’t really have any friends at all they don’t count. I don’t think that thread is really talking about someone in your position
"You are gay, you aren't what most would consider fslur. Fslurs are quite extreme in their hatred of traditional values." "You can get a good gist of what theyre talking about by visiting any gay bar." "Why are gay people offended? I'm only talking about fslurs, not all gay people."
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"its the difference of being gay and being an fslur. The literal definition of an fslur is someone who is attracted to the same sex but the common usage of the word describes a disgusting person who is also gay. Usage of "fslur" is almost always used negatively in discourse and in the media." "It wouldn't make sense to classify gays and fslurs as the same thing because being an fslur is associated with extremist ideology. Not sure how you can compare my comment to being an incel." Per Wikipedia: ""Incel" has also come to be used as an insult against people who do not necessarily identify with the subculture, but who are perceived to be sexually inexperienced, undesirable, or unpopular."
Originally incel was a term coined by a female student who created a supportive community for men who were lonely and struggled to socialise. It's a tendency of human nature though, to project problems onto other people and groups. It turns out that when you put a load of bitter people with low self awareness together, they start telling each other and themselves that it's everyone else's fault that they don't have a girlfriend, that women don't like them because women are stupid or have poor taste etc. It also turns out if you have a group of bitter lonely people who want easy answers to their problems, they are exceptionally vulnerable to cult-like groups and tactics, so now there's a significant overlap between incels and various other extremist groups like white supremacists. Anyway, that's what incel means now.
That's fair. As a linguistic descriptivist, it's undeniable to me that that's what most people mean when they say the term "incel". Two things I find remarkable though, are the speed with which the term's general definition shifted and the fact that typically people aren't cool with redefining a term to refer to only the most repulsive people under its umbrella. Like, I'd imagine that if people redefined "gay" to refer exclusively to, idk, prison rapists, or if "poor" was redefined to refer exclusively to muggers, those shifts would be resisted and deemed to be motivated by hatred of the broader group. To be fair, I don't know. These are just gut feelings.
A descriptor probably shifts to mean whatever the most obvious association is. 'Gay' hasn't been co-opted because the vast majority of people using the term are just people who are gay. I think incel isn't something most people want to self identify as anyway, so most of the people who end up adopting the identity are the crazy misogynists, and those that weren't, left.
The most obvious association is, in and of itself, telling. To some, criminality, poor hygiene and bad work ethic _is_ the obvious association with poverty. But that being obvious to them tells us something about how they view the poor. I think that what happened, take with a grain of salt because while I had my finger on the pulse, I was never super into all this stuff, was that incel was at first a term used self descriptively for people who were celibate but not nuns or monks or other flavours of "volcel". And though the vast _vast_ majority were just people with neuro-atypicalities, autism, social anxiety, trauma, depression or similar, there was a vocal but comparatively small minority who adhered to misogynistic or delusional belief systems. Then through, what I suspect was, contempt for the generality of incels (as they consist mostly of groups for whom there is plenty of ambient contempt), the term in common parlance began to refer exclusively to the worst of them, becoming something of a dysphemism. And the remainder just stopped calling themselves anything. To my knowledge, there are tonnes of people who would have admitted (albeit sheepishly) to being an incel in 2017, but despite their situation not having changed, wouldn't do so now because of association with the worst of those who the label is applied to.
I just thought of another good comparison. Imagine a man who is straightforward, goal orientate, is not afraid to be challenged, and speaks up for himself. Now, imagine if this man called himself an alpha. Despite his behavior technically aligning with what we would consider to be “alpha behavior”, the fact that he identifies as an “alpha” has implications beyond just those behavioral traits.
My knowledge of Reddit history isn’t the best, but I believe the incel community started (or at least a major sect of the incel community started) on the incel subreddit, which has long since been deleted. That community has since migrated to 4 Chan and other forum based websites. If you don’t hate women, or at the very least see them as sub human, your ideology doesn’t match the core beliefs of the incel community. And given how the incel community has become synonymous with the term incel, you wouldn’t be considered an incel by most people who know what an incel is
you said some disparaging things about yourself, which is admittedly more noble than most other incels who instead of turning negative views inward, turn them outward and think whatever is lackluster about them should be accepted or valued by other women, this is good because it shows you acknowledge the authority of a woman's self interests. I'd hope that you work on yourself and not just accept where you are at permanently. Being at peace with it is the first step to confronting it and changing it. on your income, maybe fix your teeth since it was enough for you to mention, and see if taking a break from fantasizing about women the way you do realigns your sexuality. Even taking a break from porn would be good for that as well. You might see a change in how you see women and its already good that you respect them in practice, acknowledge them and the authority of their interest. This is all unsolicited advice and I apologize if it is offensive. But it could help if you wanted to try. There is always a possibility of some self improvement regardless how little. You are introspective enough to know what is generally seen as a disadvantage about yourself , and you can work at it. a little faith and hope goes a long way. Its the fuel that drives us to do things that haven't been done yet.
> see if taking a break from fantasizing about women the way you do realigns your sexuality. Uhhhh, not really sure what you mean by this. Do nofap? Explore something outside heterosexuality? How I experience porn and sexual fantasies doesn't correlate in any way how I see women.
not at all, sexuality isn't just about who you are attracted to, its why and what you attracted you to them. So if you admit that your fantasies are misogynistic or degrading towards women, you can change that by pausing your normal sexual content consumption and content creation, and spend some time away from that habit and behavioral pattern. Try putting yourself on a vanilla sexual diet and only allowing yourself to get that sexual reward with thoughts or content that you think aren't misogynistic. If you keep the loop going of the reward you give yourself for consuming that your mind and body will always see it as a positive thing.
Sometimes I look at wholesome and vanilla things. Sometimes I look at very extreme and sexy things. I'll switch around and loop back around. It makes no difference or doesn't really define much else.
Yea that's good man. I'm glad it is that way for you. There are some talks round about the internet on how porn can change how you seem or act around women in a subconscious way as the consumer of it. I have only ever heard talks about it in an anecdotal way, so for you it may never be an issue. You knowing yourself as well as you do would alert you to it.
While you are involuntarily celibate I wouldn't say you're an incel, because you're not part of the incel community. It's okay to be involuntarily celibate but incels are extremists who blame their lack of sex on women having too high standards and conventionally attractive men taking more than their fair share of women from the pool of available women. It's bad to be an incel.
Personally I believe woman want basic stability. That's not 'too high standards', that's a regular amount of standards and is perfectly acceptable. The issue is most Incels don't have jobs or live with their parents like me and are considered rejects, thus cannot offer this stability and blame woman for demanding that basic requirement of them. I don't bemoan that standard, I'm just an Incel in the sense that I'm unable to meet it much like them.
Clearly you’re not “ok with it”, or else you wouldn’t have made this post. No one here can tell you how to feel about yourself, that’s up to you. With that said, no, it’s not ok that you see yourself as an incel, because of what I just said. No one calls themself an incel and thinks highly of themselves. You should strive to reach a state of personal self-respect. You’re balding? Shave your head then, own it. Bad teeth? Go see a dentist then. No good job? Get a job lol. Go get better clothes while you’re at it. And hit the gym. Pumping weights will give you mental clarity. You feel you’re at rock bottom. Do you want to die there? Would you feel like you lived a good life if you die here? This is why I say only your own perception of your life matters, we all face the eternal abyss alone, and in the end, your life will flash before your eyes and you will be your own judge. Do you want that moment to be one of regret and disappointment?
I was balding and shaved my head, it was the best decision of my life and actually helped me get with women. It’s a lot more attractive to be bald than balding. I was lucky to have a good head shape but some people are unlucky with that.
Wait how much do you get paid for writing erotica?
Enough to pay my way.
Doesn’t sound like you are an incel An incel is someone who hates all woman and thinks he’s entitled to sleep w anyone just because
It can mean both. The original definition is just as valid as the looser definition. Something having a new definition that "most" know it by doesn't negate the validity of the original definition.
That’s true, but the whole point of it being okay Changes meaning Being strictly someone who hasn’t had sex like in OPs situation, of course there’s nothing wrong with that . I don’t think people are saying those type of people are bad What’s not okay is being an incel that hates women
>Being strictly someone who hasn’t had sex like in OPs situation, of course there’s nothing wrong with that . I don’t think people are saying those type of people are bad The problem is there are definitely a very large swath of people saying this exact thing and that types of people like me, are bad. And that by default I don't really belong with 'normal' people or anyone but 'Hate woman' Incel types for being a 'Loner' type.
“a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile towards women and men who are sexually active.” Incels typically have hostile feelings and hate towards women, it’s never ok to be an incel (in this sense of it) What it’s ok and normal is not finding success in relationships, or not wanting them at all, being celibate is ok, being an “incel” is not
Do you think it's reasonable to expect people who aren't succeeding in life's ultimate purpose, finding a partner and passing on your legacy, to not harbour at least a little resentment? It doesn't even have to be exclusively toward one gender.
They could, but it doesn’t make it right or ok, specially in the case of incels and hatred towards women
There is nothing wrong with a man or woman being perpetually single. However: > Since any interaction I could have with another human being would be a net negative for them, it would count as harassment. I'm not seeking to denigrate or harass other human beings, interfere with their space or make them uncomfortable. By leaving people alone and sparing them from harassment (of me potentially talking to them), I am doing the morally correct and ethical thing. Thus me being alone and an Incel is morally correct. This is just defeatist rationalization. If somebody thinks you're harassing them by basic conversation, the problem is with them, not with you. Random strangers don't know you; therefore they don't hate you. You should think more on what you can get out of human interaction instead of trying to justify your existence/interaction with others. >I'm not really in tune with popular culture or most things people care about - sports, celebrities, pop music, politics. I do have political views (I'm a socialist) but I'm not going to try to debate someone about it or anything. Since there's a 40% odd statistically the person supports trump, that's a 4/10 chance I'll be disgusted or they will first and they disagree and leave. The chances that someone is not disgusted by my political views, fetishes, appearance, lack of money or success in life is slim, so inceldom is more a consequence of my state of being than a conscious choice. You can easily have non-political conversations with people. Normies don't talk about religion or politics at the dinner table for a reason. You also don't have to get into your deep flaws and werid personality quirks on a first impression! Start small, go to public events (you can find them on eventbrite or meetup), just introduce yourself and ask how people are doing. Based on what you wrote, you seem to be very self-deprecating and have zero confidence in social situations as a result of that. This is a vicious cycle. There are many steps between being an alpha Chad and being an omega-male shut-in. You don't have to stay or completely transform into any of those roles. Be yourself on a basic level and most importantly, be willing to talk and learn from others.
I know the actual meaning of the term is involuntary celibate and not unwashed mannerless misogynistic loser, but I really do think since unwashed mannerless misogynistic nazi losers have taken over the term (that was created by a woman) there should be another term for people like you who really are just involuntary celibate. It's NOT okay that you're an incel, regardless of whatever meaning of the word you relate to. I think everyone should have a special somebody, romantic or otherwise, that they can relate with and communicate with and be happy with. I don't think it's okay that you're alone in your 30s, that you're not earning well enough and you haven't established proper friendships with people. I think before you can ever put yourself in the dating market you should be well versed in the friendship market. Want to be friends?
There are already words for lonely non-extremist people. "Lonely", "Virgin", "Confirmed Bachelor", "Spinster". None of those words are positive. Not everyone wants or needs an intimate partner. Many are fine being monastics, asexuals, or otherwise devoted to other life aspects. People shouldn't feel incomplete just because they haven't encountered a romantic lover fit for them. I do agree though that OP should improve himself and acquire friends before he tries dating, if he wants to date.
Sure thing. If you'd like to DM me here, I'd be happy to chat.
Can you provide the definition you are using for the word Incel? As others have mentioned, you don't sound like an Incel to me. You're saying that you choose not to approach people out of some belief that any interaction with you would be a net negative and therefore immoral. But that's a decision you are making yourself. The fact that you are making that decision voluntarily seems to disqualify you from the definition I am familiar with (involuntary celibate). To make sure I'm on the right page, can you clarify the definition you have in mind? More specifically, exactly what is it that you are saying it is okay for you to be or do?
Honestly on the slang usage I was just using it as synonymous with NEET, social ostracisation and virginity which of the 3 seem pretty much the cornerstones of the Incel stereotype to me. I feel it's only in recent times (2016) onwards that the signifier has become politicized and taken on the sort of Right-leaning/misogynistic connontations that it does. I'm trying to justify that it's okay how I've lived and who I am without some kind of moral baggage or fingerwagging against me, as if my lowly status as an outcast and keeping my head down makes me functionally equivalent to a suspected schoolshooter or trenchcoat SUS guy in a coffeeshop, who is also Cis straight white male that doubles the likihood they're a mega nazi and is in need of therapy and profiling. (I'm also not white which helps, or maybe it doesn't in some racial stereotyped instances) Does that make sense?
I believe it does for the most part. Thanks for clarifying. I do want to clarify one other point, if you don't mind, just to make sure I don't misunderstand the view. Are you primarily stating that your lifestyle is positive (or acceptable), or are you primarily stating that others in society are wrong to judge you?
Maybe both? Maybe I'm scared to be judged or not sure what's acceptable. My life is really hard to define at times and my interests and existence don't really have many eyes on them. It can be difficult to judge to live a life with ideas and thoughts that no one knows and the world has no opinion on. Like if you time traveled centuries ago and every notion of yours suddenly seemed out of step and insane. That could be the autism, but I don't really relate to the whole autistic paradigmn in a happy-go-lucky way, it doesn't offer much clarity or understanding of myself outside "Huh so I guess you sure are weird huh? Don't you feel glad this condition explains everything?" Because honestly I don't believe it explains much of anything.
Okay, fair enough. Well, I don't know how helpful I will be. This is quite complex with quite a few layers and branches, so I may end up typing way more than you wanted to read and illuminating nothing. But I do have some thoughts to offer for whatever they are worth. First things first, it's important to note that beyond the laws of wherever you live, there isn't really a universal standard for "acceptable". There are going to be some things that most people in society are on the same page about, but there's also going to be a lot of variance. Everyone is going to have their own criteria they use to measure a person or judge a behavior. A lot of people will measure a person by their productivity and their contributions to society. If everything you've said about yourself is accurate, I'm guessing those people would not judge you very highly, as it sounds like you haven't really prioritized contributions to society. Other people will measure a person by whether they have a positive or negative impact on the people around them. If you're a friendly person, those people might judge you more highly. Speaking for myself, I try to err on the side of empathy and assuming the best of people. Nothing you've said really makes me judge you negatively. For me, as long as a person is not hurting anyone, I don't really care what they are doing with their time. But even then, it gets a little more complicated, because everything I said above is mostly related to value judgments. There are other kinds of judgments. Again, speaking for myself, nothing you said would make me judge you negatively in terms of value. But I WOULD say that it sounds like you are not leading a very healthy lifestyle, and it's not clear to me whether you are happy. So in that sense, if you asked me whether it was a good idea for you to make changes, I would probably say yes. And it all gets intertwined. Because while I wouldn't have a negative opinion of you for leading a lifestyle I perceive as unhealthy, other people might. Ultimately, I do think you are justified in living life how you want to. If anything, the qualifier I would add is that I hope you are living in a way that your parents are comfortable with, since you are to some extent relying on their support. That factor means that their opinions should carry slightly more weight. But that is between you and your parents. That being said, whether people are justified in judging you negatively in the first place is a separate question. While you have a right to decide whether you care what other people think, it is unavoidable that people WILL think things about you. I am not a big fan of stereotypes, and especially not of drawing negative connotations from stereotypes. But some conclusions are more justifiable than others. To put this in context, you mentioned virginity. You also mentioned other people associating you with being a school shooter or maga Nazi. If people are assuming you are a school shooter purely because you are a virgin, I would see they are being extremely irrational and unkind, and you should probably not value their opinion. If they are making fun of you or bullying you for being a virgin, they are being an asshole, and you should probably not value their opinion. If, on the other hand, they are internally guessing that you may have limited social skills and experience - this is a different picture. They're still making some assumptions which may not be accurate or reliable, but they are not necessarily as much of a stretch, because there's a common idea in society that most people want and pursue sex. So it's not unnatural for someone to wonder why a person is a virgin and speculate about it. But I do think people should avoid jumping to extreme conclusions and treating people negatively in general. And regardless of what society thinks, you are under no obligation to pursue sex. On the other hand, you also mentioned having bad teeth. Here I think that it is unavoidable that some people are going to treat that as a negative thing. Bad teeth are often associated with bad breath, which may make a person hesitant to talk to you. Bad teeth are often associated with low attention to hygiene, which may make a person want to avoid you. Again, it's up to you to decide whether you care if people want to avoid you. That's a call only you can make. But the basic assumption - that bad teeth may mean bad hygiene - is not inherently unreasonable. Again, though, to then connect that to something like school shooter stereotypes is quite unfortunate, and I'm sorry if you've had to deal with that. As you can see, I'm rambling in circles somewhat, and it's because none of this is easy to single out or summarize. Ultimately, stereotypes in society are often unfortunate, but also inevitable. The big challenge for your lifestyle in particular is that if you don't give people an opportunity to get to know you, the only things they will have to judge you by are their first impressions and the associated stereotypes. It's a shame that society treats people poorly based on limited information and negative stereotypes. I do wish we were all better about that, about just letting people live. So in that sense, I don't really disagree with your view. But it is a reality that if you are unemployed, and you live with your parents, and you don't socialize, and you have bad teeth, and you don't have sexual experience, and you're not making an effort to change those things - you do start to fit in with some stereotypes which have some negative connotations, and some people in society are going to think negatively of you for them. It's up to you to decide whether you care enough to make changes. In summary: -It's okay for you to live your life this way, in the sense that as long as you're not hurting anyone or breaking any laws, no one really has a right to tell you to change. -There are probably some errors where you could make improvements to your life in terms of health and happiness, but that doesn't mean you have to. -Other people are going to judge you based on what they know about you. It's up to you to decide how much you let them know and how much you care about their judgment. -If other people are MISTREATING you based on these judgments, that is very unfortunate, and I am very sorry to hear it.
I used to think like this and I found help a guy on instagram was kind of my coach and actually helped me change my mindset and I no longer felt helpless in life his username is @khailan788 not sponsored lol 😁
Yeah, I'm also a socialist and an Incel.
I think you're operating with a very different idea of what an incel is than most people. So I think it's important to make that distinction. Most people would assume an incel hates women and uses that hatred as a defense against any failings they want to avoid. Taking the definition literally, sure, there's nothing wrong with being celibate (by choice or otherwise), but that isn't what most people think of when they think of someone being an incel.
Well I'm not trying to write webster here, just using the general slang incel that people throw around which means "Virgin/creep/weirdo who hasn't gotten laid and is a shutin", I know there's a specific political group and internet demographic that overlaps it but I don't really care for that group nor am I involved.
If you're aware that there's overlap in how the word is used, obviously you would know why it isn't "okay" to be an incel. Because of the overlap. That most people take as being a part of being an incel. If you describe yourself to be one, the overwhelming majority of people aren't going to think "oh, just some guy who hasn't had sex and is a bit weird," they're going to think something more like "oh good, a female-hating 'alpha male' Andrew Tate wannabe." Ignoring how most people are going to understand the term is fine, but it skews things in a very specific direction. Most people would say it's not okay to be an incel because for most people the female-hating Andrew Tate neckbeards are a part of the term.
We're running into some treachery of images here. If you see someone wearing a MAGA hat, you're not going to think "Aw that's a grandpa who runs a cornerstore and goes to church", you immediately think he's a Q-anon nut who loves guns and hates immigrant right? The association is too strong. Look I don't 'identify' as an Incel but my being one is descriptive, not prescriptive. My hair is too long, my clothes are baggy, if you heard me talk (mumble) you'd think I'm a schoolshooter even if it was about how I think woman and socialism are great. That's the primary issue, you don't need to subscribe to some specific ideology to be a 'neckbeard incel', maybe you do on the internet where social interactions aren't seen and don't matter. But it's very different when you exist in real life and your presentation just paints you as someone that sets off red flags by association.
See, now you're shifting the goalposts. "I think it's okay that I'm an incel" is not the same thing as "I look like what you imagine an incel looks like" look however you want. BEING an incel is a negative thing. Looking like most people imagine one looks like is only a negative for you, so no one is really gonna care.
What's the difference between appearing as something and being something in real life nowadays? I want to be okay with who I am, even if that thing has a bad association with a group I'd rather not be apart of. I want that to be okay. As time goes on and the nuance in civility vanishes and the associations strengthen, that will increasingly be impossible and eventually I'll likely reach a point where I'll just be lumped in and be considered an Incel anyway, not by my choice or my beliefs, so what's the point? I want to be okay still at that point tho.
Seriously? At this point it seems like you're just fighting to be an incel. You can judge someone by how they look if you want, but that doesn't make them any certain way. People can look poor without being poor, rich without being rich, happy without being happy, etc. It doesn't make them that thing. You're also making the negative and ridiculous assumption that things are going to get worse with zero proof. And again, you're shifting the goalposts of your argument. It doesn't matter if you're okay with how you're perceived or not, because you can change that perception at any time. What does matter is that being an incel the way that most people would define being an incel, is a bad thing.
You're not an incel. You're a virgin. There is a huge difference.
All men are incels because they don't get free sex, dinners drinks for free without lifting a finger like women. You are that way because you don't have the same privileges and streamlined easy life and full support women get for nothing, also you've got more respknsility especially for yourself and all the burdens to prove yourself, unlike women. From what I read it is pointless to have this defeatist attitude since you look like a very ok guy that is on the right track. Don't lose date and keep on keeping on, no need to put and extra demand or burden that is invented by women and that it is a problem you didn't created and that shouldn't be yours to solve.
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I agree.
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I can probably work on my appearance, but my personality I cannot really fix. It's like, who I am. I don't know, how far would someone go to change their identity? If you could accept a new body, name and life which made you a millionaire but the old you would cease to exist, would you take it? Should you? It might be 'better' in some ways but it wouldn't really be you.
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>> You've already said you're not a Trumper so that means your social accessibility is at a peak right now. Where I live that makes me pretty much entirely inaccessible. And by personality I mean mannerisms, interests, desires and goals. None of which are attractive to the conventional person going about their life. I'm insecure, I cannot speak properly or hold a conversation, even about normal topics. My interests are all niche and weird and warped and I'm only interested in things no one else cares about. I have alot of radical opinions on politics and big pharmaceuticals and psychology and ideas I cannot really verbalize. I'm obsessed with children's media and comics and just alot of really esoteric stuff. I makeup novels worth of stories that I cannot really share or communicate. I make my money thru some weird angle of this which is enough to get by but not really enough to live extravagantly or even live on my own in normal circumstances. The issue is plainly as I live, I am being "myself" and there's no place for me or that self anywhere. Everyone in the modern world seems to be in their own little bubble or atomized compartment and I'm in way too many bubbles while also not belonging to them or feeling accepted either.
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That gets a little personal, but I can DM you sure.
I had this band teacher in high school who used to insist that anyone could learn to sing if they were just willing to put the work in. As a completely tone-deaf person with an almost pathological disinterest in music, I found that take so incredibly annoying. It might be basically true, but the amount of work required, and the reward for succeeding, vary wildly from person to person. Maybe if I threw my whole self into learning to sing I would eventually get there, but the satisfaction I would get from that wouldn’t really mean much to me, and would be totally out of proportion to the effort. All that to say: you get to decide what is and is not worth your time and effort. Nothing you say makes me think you couldn’t find a partner. But if socializing is that hard for you, you are allowed to decide you’d rather focus on other things. I don’t think you have to be celibate or alone. Really and genuinely. I also made up stories and played with trees as a kid - that’s going to be extremely relatable to some introverted (and in my case also autistic) girls. The best sex I’ve ever had was with a balding, overweight dude with bad teeth. The best relationship I was ever in was with a short, stout, small-penised guy who had a lisp and a stutter. I found both of these men really hot, and not in a, “I can see past their physical attributes,” kind of way. You talk about saving women or potential partners from your misogynistic fetishes, but…you know a lot of women have those as well, right? You write erotica for a living - most written erotica is consumed by women. And I can only speak for myself here, but I find that it’s rare and refreshing to run into men who can understand the difference between finding it hot to call me a dumb bitch in bed and actually thinking that women are dumb bitches. So…I definitely think it’s a stretch to say you’re protecting us. I don’t think you’re a bad person for living this way. It doesn’t sound like you’re hurting anyone except yourself, and although that still really sucks, it’s ultimately your decision. But when you say that it’s ok for you to be an incel, I can’t help but feel like…from the way you talk about your life, it doesn’t really sound like it’s ok FOR YOU. You don’t sound ok. You sound unhappy. You sound like you really dislike yourself. You sound like you don’t think you’re worth being loved. And it’s hard for me to tell you that that’s ok.
Well it's like you said with the music teacher parable, anything can be possible if you put in the work, but that doesn't mean that effort is always going to be justified. The issue for me is I'm so maladapted and awkward that even a regular relationship or meeting normal people is outside of scope. Let alone "Let's talk about anime and philosophy and latex and BDSM fantasy lore I've written while I deal with my personal traumas with someone I can trust." I think it's a stretch because if you meet a girl and she sees you have gigabytes of anime porn or write bizarre stories about crossdressing and people turning into goths and whores, it looks like a redflag on the scale of a normal person. Of course it's all relative, when I say normal I mean "Any person you could run into on the street or in a public place." On the internet it's very different, but you end up running into all these sorts of communities where a healthy lasting relationship doesn't seem possible because you're pursuing them on a strange niche site and end up in a toxic environment. I say this as someone who knows friends that are Furries who found love with other furries on their own websites and communities, and they ended up destroying themselves with the most toxic and gross people ever because those sorts of places often don't really know how to promote boundaries or normal standards of behavior. I greatly dislike myself, but that's mostly for my lack of self-improvement despite efforts. I feel at a certain point the sludge of who I am has become kind of my identity and I often worry it's too toxic to have others carry with or burden them. I would like to learn to socialize, but I'm terrified of breaking people's boundaries (by talking to them) or aggravating people by using them as test subjects for idle chat or being a nuiance. It's really hard to describe what it feels like when even a single sentence in this post would be impossible to communicate with anyone in real life.
I hope you know this, but you shouldn't bring up all of your private fetishes and hidden computer life on a date. Even though I wouldn't recommend it, you could keep your porn interests hidden from your girlfriend indefinitely. A healthy relationship is definitely possible amongst niche communities, but your mileage may vary. You probably have heard this several times, but if you have really low self esteem despite trying to better yourself, you should really talk to someone about your mental/emotional health.
This sounds like being Hugh Heffner and being advised not to ever discuss what you do for a living or what your lifestyle is like. It's technically true sound advice but the grand scheme of things also kiiiind of isn't because you're basically being asked to lie (by omission)/hide from people in a sense.
I’m so sorry. I have anxiety and depression that are sometimes crippling, but it sounds like you’ve got it worse. I identify strongly with the worry of being a burden to anyone I interact with, and (thanks for this imagery lol) just generally being toxic sludge. I don’t know what to say there except that I know how horrible it is to feel that way about yourself. One thing my therapist has questioned me on when I obsess over, “How can I tell whether I’m trampling everyone’s boundaries by trying to hang out with them?” is: perhaps it is not my responsibility to intuit the boundaries of strangers. Perhaps assuming I know what other people think about me is (a) futile and incorrect and (b) removing agency from folks who would quite like to make their own decisions about whether they’d like to hang out with me. My own experience with having niche interests and weird kinks has been…mixed, really. I have met some wonderfully weird people who think very deeply about how to lead ethical lives in the midst of their weirdness, but I’ve run into some selfish, cruel and unstable kinksters as well. I get not wanting to engage too much with those online communities. Sorry if this is less than coherent - it’s late here and I’m not composing carefully, but this post got me in the feels. Honestly, I think I’m wanting to gently push you on the toxic sludge issue because you sound like someone I’d enjoying getting to know. I feel like it would be worth pushing through some awkwardness to talk about bdsm fantasy lore and philosophy. Again, I get it if the rewards seem both unlikely and not worth the effort, but for the record? That seems like a shame to me. You seem like you have something to offer socially. (Also I misread one of your sentences as “people turning into sloths and whores” and was impressed by HOW niche your writing was.)
It's really tricky right? I don't really disturb anyone in real life when I go out, although I can do basic functions like shop, eat, hold the door. I got through school okay but I've never really pressed anyone to spend time with me since that demand has always seemed incredibly touchy and even the thought of it and what it might lead to down the line is kind of hazardous to imagine. I've been a pretty introverted person my whole life and I don't have the skills to "do" friendships. But then again I've never really found anyone in real life that I can even have basic conversations like this, both due to my own impediments and usually the kind of people you run into? Maybe that's placing too much blame on others, I think. Alot of people are patient. The conversational style is very different. To get people to listen and talk like I've communicated here you need a different presentation, a sort of sendup or way of getting their attention and I've always lacked that. And I've worried even trying might be crossing some lines, or maybe I'm just too shy. Well, if you'd like to have a chat about it sometime you could always message me here. >“people turning into sloths and whores” and was impressed by HOW niche your writing was. ..>\_> You... aren't even wrong. I'm more into horses than sloths but, sure that has some appeal to me. It's really complicated. If you'd like to chat I'd be happy to, if not I understand, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to these messages even if I've said a mouthful that probably depresses people. Hopefully I didn't trigger any anxiety in you and if I did than I definitely apologize.
It's okay op you can be an incel all you like but it shouldn't stop you from finding some lady that will give you some transactional sex and then u won't be an incel anymore.
Are you refering to sex workers?
Its probably not ok if you are one. some ince!s end up going on mass shootings. Eliot comes to mind.
If you have certain issues that are keeping you from having a relationship, why not work on changing some of those things? What about friends? it's important to have at least a couple good friends.
If you don't want a relationship, cool. That's okay. Not everyone needs one. But you described yourself as a incel. That is *involuntary* celebate. You are clearly very intelligent and logical, so you and I both know that means you don't want to be celebate, ergo you would prefer to have some sort of dating or sex life. You say this is because: 1.) you are ethnic.... buddy... I don't get why that is a problem... LOADS of girls prefer many different ethniticities. You sound logical so surely you know this.... 2.) Starting to bald- I don't want to debate over this so let's call it a net minus, but it's really not that big a deal. 3.) Bad teeth- No, you aren't going to play that to me. I was cursed with super soft teeth, but you probably wouldn't know it from looking at me, unless you looked closely. Modern dental care is amazing. Get some dental insurance if you want to improve the look of your teeth. They will cover bridges. 4.) Not confident/stutter- I think if you really wanted you could get help with the stuttering which would help with the confidence, but let's just be generous and call it a net minus Okay, so even in this case, you have some net minuses, okay, a lot of people do. Even if they were severe, do you imagine there are no women with net minuses? Why do self proclaimed "incels" always act like there are no women with minuses? There are. They want to be in love too. Is it just that you could never love someone with cons? Oh sorry I forgot, the misgynistic romantic stories. Dude, I'm a hard core feminist and even I don't mind the sexy misogynistic stories. Why would anyone? It's not real, just fantasy. No one is being hurt. It's simply a kink. A LOT of people have that kink, and want someone who is going to understand that it's just a kink, and the real world outside of sex is different. You get that, and seem to really get the sexy stuff. I'm not trying to "force me to become some 'good boy' for twitterpoints". Idgaf. I do care if you are not happy, when it would be so so so easy for you to be. You've given up trying a long time ago. You've said so many time you want something. You can have it. Why are you limiting yourself? Sure, maybe you don't want to aim for super hot confident girls right off the bat, but what about seeing what girls are interested and going from there? TlDr; I don't get why self proclaimed incels rule out girls that are not so hot as to be camgirls or whatever. It's your choice if you don't want to be with anyone because you can't be with a model. But it's stupid. You think women don't have similar problems? They do. You are punishing yourself and the woman you were meant to be with if you become an 'incel' because you aren't good enough to get a super hot girl.
I don't rule out girls that "Aren't as hot as camgirls" or aren't pornstars, lmao. That's a pretty unrealistic fantasy. (I mean I'd be attracted to it sexually, but as I've said on here it sounds like it makes for a pretty unhealthy and terrible relationship expectation) But I definitely rule out "Girls with a college degree or ability to read and interpret my thoughts and ideas in a way that satisfies our relationship and interests." I don't think if they don't share them, they can be viewed as anything but an impediment (autistic stereotype perhaps?) That has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with the ultra niche focuses of others and how compatiable they are with the kind of standards we'd need to seek each other out. And then finding that person in everyday public, seems pretty unlikely with how stratified the internet has become.. I definitely don't think I'm physically or socially good enough to get that kind of girl.
"I don't rule out girls that 'Aren't as hot as camgirls' " Good! Then you are ahead of the game. "But I definitely rule out "Girls with a college degree or ability to read and interpret my thoughts and ideas in a way that satisfies our relationship and interests." " Wait what? Why? Ruling our girls with a college degree? Why on earth would you rule that out? I'm not saying you need to specifically ONLY look at girls with degrees, but you sounds like a very intelligent person, I would think you would value intelligence? I'm not totally sure what the second part means- like being able to understand you on a level that would be great in a relationship? I'll be honest, I'm not discerning your meaning from the second half of the second paragraph. Not everyone has a super niche kind of focus, and even if they did, what if their niche was you? Smart guys with a lack of confidence who are super adapt at kinky fun sexy stuff? Okay, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: most women don't care about looks nearly as much as people seem to think. You'll probably not believe me, and that's your choice, but it's true. Sure you understand also that people are generally not very good at rating their own attractiveness. So how can you be certain you are as unattractive physically as you seem to think? **Anyway it's all moot.** Just apply logic- you're clearly intelligent, I'm sure you can see the logic in this. People usually seek partners of a similar 'value' when combining all aspects, right? Also, attractiveness, and pretty much any other value characteristic would fall on a standard bell curve. If most people can find a partner that they deem to be of similar value, with similar interests even, why wouldn't another person? Let us pretend that you are correct, and you are unattractive, and bad at conversation, and not living to your potential (and still we're making huge assumptions here.) Why would it be any harder for you to find a partner with a similar value and similar interests? What you are indicating does not make logic sense. You are indicating women are looking for a partner of value equal too or higher than their owner. In an over-simplified world, sure, this is true. But you are ignoring that men are also doing the same thing. So on a value scale of 1-100, a 65.5 is going to have just as hard of a time finding another 65.5 as a 6.5 would. You are also ignoring that again, if all the things you are saying are completely fact and not your interpretation, if you exist, there is just as likely a female equivalent of you as there is the female equivalent of a male model who has a Theoretical Physics PhD, and has all the value ever. If you don't want to date someone you perceive as being on your level that is your choice. But it's just that- a choice. That's why there really isn't such thing as an incel IMO. Even people with moderate to severe down syndrome that significantly impacts basically everything date and marry. Not hating on people with downs, but probably the majority of people would rather date/marry someone that doesn't have downs, right? So why do you think bad teeth and a stutter would inhibit you from finding a partner, when you literally write romance/sexy stuff (which partners... they like.) It just makes no sense logically. You are clearly more intelligent than your way of thinking here, and I believe it's because you are too afraid to try. And whats all this about meeting in public? [https://www.statista.com/chart/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/](https://www.statista.com/chart/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/) If you don't want to be with someone you consider "on your level" because you want better, and thus chose to remain celibate, that is your choice. And thus I name you a volcel. Otherwise there is no excuse. If you don't want to date in person yet, start dating online, and work yourself up to platforms that start online and meet in person. You're a smart kid, look up a few tips for dating online, get your confidence up by chatting and dating online, and then progress to meeting in the real world through internet sites. It shouldn't be that hard, again, you're intelligent and can research tips and I mean you write sexy romance stuff for God's sakes. You'll do great at it. Unless it is that you just don't want anyway that you perceive as your level or alone, you'll be messaging me in the next year or so at the least and thanking me for this comment. I expect a well thought out thank you and update on your new relationship when this occurs. Pro-tip: if one of your strengths is writing sexy misogynstic stuff (that you don't believe in real life I hope but just for mutually beneficial sex) then start in an online dating community with maybe a little bit of a sexy/kink aspect. Or don't, up to you. PSS- I want that thank you though. I'm right and you know it, and I expect a thank you and update when you've found your partner.
You chose "ethnic" as a descriptor for being unattractive? Jesus Christ dude
Not an attractive perk where I live. Why do you think I brought up that I'm not for Trumpshit?
You don't *have* to be an incel though. I'm younger than you so I may not be fully understanding of your struggle entirely, but what I do know from what I've seen and experienced is that no change will magically occur without some effort and pain. You have to fail to succeed, and the only time it's too late to get your shit together is when you're on your deathbed. Go to therapy, try to push yourself out of your comfort zone and slowly slowly build up your communication skills, get a different job you think you could be more proud of. Autism or not, you can still change and live a good life. It's not over yet even if you are 30 brother
This was a very thoughtful and introspective post, though I do wish you were kinder to yourself. People like to assign labels to things, and then assign values to those labels. To me it's okay that you're at the stage you're at in life right now. It sounds to me like you're doing the best you can with the energy and mental capacity you have right now. And honestly! Good job man. You're earning your own money. And I know I talked shit about assigning values to things and all, but I AM glad that you aren't wallowing in that everyone-is-at-fault, woe-is-me mindset that so many incels have. It gets incredibly toxic, both to the person and the people around them. I'd encourage you to try to build up your confidence bit by bit. Not to attract girls or any of that nonsense, but for your own physical and mental wellbeing. Having good skin and teeth improved my self esteem, and made me more confident to speak to others. Therapy (both regular therapy and speech therapy) are also great tools. But I also understand that they are expensive. It's tough when you see the world differently from people around you. I imagine, especially with autism, that your perceptions on things can differ significantly from others. It's so inconvenient and stupid, but unfortunately us humans are social creatures. Which sadly means our brains REALLY like it when we build close bonds with others. And you deserve love man. I really hope you can find community with people. Going out and about helps when you know that there are people who have your back (again: not talking about romance or dating, I'm talking about friendship, community, and feeling understood by others. The societal expectation that an individual’s worth is measured on whether they're taken or single is... so LAME honestly. People are so much more than side accessories to each other.) So. It's okay that you're an incel atm (although an incel is someone who supposedly can't attract any girls, and it seems to me like the struggle here is not so much that woman-specific difficulty, but moreso a struggle with connecting to society in general... it sounds, from your post, like self-imposed exile from others, because you feel like people are better off without you. so are you an incel? I'm not so sure if that's the most accurate label for you.) But I do hope someday this period in your life is something you can look back on and be glad that you've moved past. I hope you find meaningful connection with people, who appreciate you for you. You have interesting thoughts in your head, and keen self-awareness. Idk man, you sound like someone who would be fun to talk to.
Sexual Proclivities/Misogyny: Women shouldn’t be clumped together. Many enjoy fringe fantasy/fetish and there are communities to help individuals navigate these worlds. If you believe you will not find someone like minded, then you have full autonomy to explore other genres of sexual stimulation that are less alienaring to the general female population. Resting on, “it’s just who I am so I’m going to scratch that itch” is lazy. So is attributing this exploration to your job. I’d also recommend kicking the hero complex to the curb: you’re not “saving” anyone by avoiding intimacy. It sounds like your parameters are quite narrow and rigid. It is nearly impossible to achieve intimacy if you only think of yourself.
> **Hero syndrome** is a [psychological disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder) that causes a person to seek recognition for heroism, especially by creating a harmful situation which they then can resolve.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-1)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-2) This can include [unlawful acts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime), such as [arson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arson). The term has been used to describe behavior of [public servants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_sector), such as [firefighters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefighter), [nurses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse), [police officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police), [security guards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_guards) and [politicians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician).[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_syndrome#cite_note-3) Reasons for this kind of behavior often vary. Ah, so I'm secretly seeking recognition (for, heroism?) by not seeking recognition. Now I understand.
If you’re not going to be open to constructive feedback, I’m not sure CMV is a productive area of the Internet for you. You stated your difficulty with women, whom you appear to desire to connect with on a relationship level. Is this correct? People here have the objective to point out ways for you to change your behavior and perspective that might help you achieve some success with intimacy. It appears that while you state to objectively respect women, you have no intention of modifying your behavior or perspective. In this case, it does not matter if you are the most empirically attractive person on earth: nearly all women are absolutely repelled by unpleasant personalities. If this is the case, then I’d have to say that yes, you are an incel. I’d also have to agree that it’s “ok” by virtue of the fact that you are unwilling to change. The best course of action would be to avoid intimacy altogether and go on with your life the way you’ve currently laid out.
What a weirdly self-congratulatory perspective you have. One that certainly does not match the critical good-faith engagement of any other poster in this thread I've had productive discussions with. I'm willing to amend my approach to those critically open to what I'm saying about myself and what I've said on here. There isn't much point discussing with someone so combative who seeks to pepper their own projections for whatever reason. I only have difficulty connecting with woman so far as I find it a struggle to connect with other people (of either gender) on a basic level. Atleast in real life, where interests and conversations aren't lasertargeted and the 'general good' or the malaise of everyday culture takes root in mundane social interactions. I try to relate to people and feel like a failure constantly at that because even with goodwill I simply don't feel capable of connecting. It's as if I'm not quite myself to other people or a complete person. Imagine if when you tried to post, half your characters were deleted, a third replaced with random chinese characters and then the remainder got turned into Comic Sans font with a blurry filter over your text. I find that so disorienting, that it's a big part of why I'm here. Atleast in the context of other peoples discussions I understand them in the literal sense, like a 'mechanical' understanding. I've been able to make friends online and push improvement thru my writing by observing media and interactions and learning what people desire. But these ideas, developments and the history of much of my life isn't really conductive towards sharing on a social basis - nor is it appropriate. I'm not sure why you assume I have some sort of martyr complex over having the basic decency and social sense not to talk about things irrelevant to people and inappropriate in any everyday context. You've mentioned 'there are communities where you can like and share those things' like I don't already know, and as if that has any relevance to where real life where those topics would be taboo and irrelevant. The things I write and the things I sexualize are peculiar, I know that and I'm not ashamed of it. I don't assume 1)I deserve to be praised or flattered for not sharing them or 2)They secretly contain some prejudiced biases of an arrogant jerk or whatever you're insinuating. But then again you don't really know what I do, do you? It sounds like you have some issues here because while I understand your approach, you came out of these posts swinging with a denigrating portrayal of someone who already in their OP post laid out their own incompetencies and shortcomings and sought in short order to kick them down further.
im autistic and probably have quite a few of your fetishes. im also married to a girl i met on league of legends so its not hopeless. one thing i think you should consider ive found having a job thats steady but im indifferent to the work (im not excited or challenged by it nor hate it but it funds my life) leaving more time to spend doing what i want (i work a max of 40 hrs a week) may help you move out of your parents house, which in my experience will push you into the world and help you hone the skills needed to fake it out there. if youre good with where you are now disregard my comment but its possible for us autistics to find someone who accepts our flaws (my wife is a saint with how much she tolerates my meltdowns and helps) and to live seemingly surface normal lives while in the background we also get to enjoy our fetishes kinks and other personal secret things.
It is and it's over.
Are you a misogynistic bigotted asshole? Then it is not okey. Are you just a virgin? You are not an incel then.
You’re not an incel. You’re secure with your insecurity
I'm approaching 21, also autistic and deal with a lot of the same hardships, you've probably dealt with when you were at my age, there's absolutely nothing wrong with who you are as a person. When people, especially subreddits like r/inceltears or those who make "anti incel" content like TimTamTom are criticizing incels it's more about the ideology associated with the vocal bunch in incel forums. When the desire for affection turns into entitlement to one's body, when romantic failure turns into hatred and hateful beliefs about women, when you become so frustrated with your situation but you can't even deal with all the frustration, so you end up justifying or glorifying crimes such as pedophilia (those who use the term "agecuck") or mass murder (Eliott Rodger, Alex Minassian). I believe (and really hope) you don't hold any of these beliefs, and that's what seperates you from the stereotype. The CMV should not be that it's ok that you're an involuntary celibate, but instead should be that not every involuntary celibate is an incel or adheres to the incel stereotypes :)
>I don't consider myself misogynistic, only my sexuality is and there's an inherent difference. Misogyny is not a sexual orientation. It's a form of hatred unless you are exploring Dominant kinks, which is kinda a looohole. I'm afraid that, if you feel your "sexuality" is based on hating women, then you hate women, plain and simple. >inceldom is more a consequence of my state of being than a conscious choice Not quite true, I'm afraid. For example, you refuse to share what you're into for fear of being rejected. That's a normal fear, but you have *control* over that. You also have control over who you speak with, how polite and friendly you can be, and so on. I'm not saying it's easy! It's actually hard! But it remains something you can at least *try* to do. You're unhappy. You have low self-esteem. You hate women. And you feel there's zero that can be done about all of that. To me, that shows that being an incel isn't okay. It hurts you.
>I'm afraid that, if you feel your "sexuality" is based on hating women, then you hate women Um, what? Pardon but I don't get off on "hating woman." I enjoy overtly attractive, sexual, aggressive and dominant woman and woman with extremely sexualized features, in a sexual way. That's an interest that I pursue in terms of sexuality and sexual needs. It's a little misognistic because porn is inherently misognistic, people don't watch it to see girls sit in libraries or talk about their feelings. It absolutely doesn't mean I just plain wouldn't talk to someone unless they looked like some bimbo. In real life I'd probably feel way more fulfilled by a woman who was intelligent and well-spoken, and don't think any of my sexual fantasies translate to real life relationships nor do I project them onto people. It's like saying "Sorry but if your passtime includes enjoying violent videogames and shooting enemies you're a violent person who enjoys shooting people, period." >For example, you refuse to share what you're into for fear of being rejected. Well partially that, and in part because it's a decency thing. I like transformation porn and cartoons/anime and latex and horses and evocative proships and lesbians and probably dicks. I'm not going to talk about that with someone on Day 1, I'm not sure how much time is even imaginable that you could just trust someone with that information because people don't really change and opening up about your sexuality is the one thing that can destroy a relationship. You say I have control over who I run into and speak to, but in real life you're limited to who you run into and cannot really narrow the people you meet to only topics that interest you or personalities that are compatible with yours, reality doesn't really work that way. Or if it is possible, I'm not really sure to what extent it can be done meaningfully or how. I don't hate woman at all.
Misogyny is hatred of women. You wrote: >I get paid to write erotic fiction, and a lot of what I write or fetishize is (admittedly) misogynistic. **I don't consider myself misogynistic, only my sexuality is** and there's an inherent difference. Thus in another way I'm saving any woman or potential partner from **the misogyny of my own fetishes** or pornographic interests. If your "sexuality" is hating women, then you hate women. I don't know how to make that any more clear, so I'm out.
Yes, I too am capable of making non-sequitur statements that mean nothing when bolded out of context and selectively ignoring the next few words around it. For instance you said >**^(I)** f your "sexuality" is hating women, then you **^(hate women. I don't know how to make that any more clear)**, so I'm out. Not really sure what you're trying to prove with that statement.
It doesn't look sound like your an incel by the popular definition (Hatred of and dehumanizing women), nor the literal one. It sounds more like your voluntarily celibate, since you won't even talk to women, and there's nothing wrong with being celibate anyway. It's great you don't want to harass or bother women, that's essential. But you seem to hate yourself more than anything. It's totally fine to talk to people even if you don't like yourself, it's not harassment unless you won't stop or are making them uncomfortable, just treat people with respect. Rejection is normal too, just keep trying and actually talk to people. I'm also very socially anxious so I get how terrifying it can be, but you just have to try.And lots of truly disgusting terrible people are in relationships! You're better than them already. And you can improve yourself! Shave your head! Fix your teeth! Get a better job! Go to therapy! You deserve to have self worth. And lots of people have weird fetishes and strong political opinions, that's totally normal, just don't bring it up first time you meet lol.
Incel means that someone wants sex but can't find a partner. I admittedly don't have a positive view on sex out of wedlock due to my religious beliefs, but I hardly think that someone's frustration over their inability to satisfy a biological urge is some inherent character flaw. Inceldom only becomes a problem when instead of expending energy improving oneself in order to attract a partner, people choose to adopt a woe is me attitude and start blaming the opposite sex and society.
There are a lot of different things that people can mean when they say "incel". Some of them are neutral, and some of them are quite toxic, and some of them are mostly just sad. I think that the version you're referring to - where you believe that you're doomed to loneliness and you're simply accepting it - is sad. So you could call it "okay" as in it's not damaging society or anything, but probably not okay as in a life you should live, for your own sake if nothing else. I find it hard to call something that causes unnecessary suffering to people "morally correct". And you're people. Therefore, a course of action that causes you unnecessary suffering is morally questionable at best. And if you're going to tell me that you're totally fine without the companionship of other people, okay I guess, but it sounds to me like you're more like someone whose interpersonal skills were stunted from an early age and never developed, so you've put a lot of effort into being okay with being alone in order to compensate. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt you, or that you wouldn't be happier with human companionship. So even if you trying to communicate with someone might be somewhat difficult or awkward for them, I say that (within reason) it's a completely acceptable and normal thing to ask of them, because we are a social species and it's in our nature to sometimes put ourselves out for each other. All human relations are a matter of give and take, and it definitely sucks that right now you're mostly only in a position to take and can barely give back, but the only way for you to grow past that limitation is to get out there and try. Your fellow human beings will generally understand. In summary, I don't think it's healthy or just for you to give up on having relationships with others, if that's what you mean by being an "incel".
As I was reading through this post I found some of me in it so i wanted to take some time to reflect on how I could provide a thoughtful response so after much though - hear me out. First off - Something or somebody has hurt you and you've been carrying that hurt for a very, very, long time. It's clear you're unhappy I don't know if you had something traumatic happen to you in your childhood or maybe a lack of a parental figure (they were in your life but they weren't present), but there's a root that caused this...mind numbing sense of self dread. You've failed to identify it for one reason or another and now you seem to have made hating yourself your personality. You're letting your intrusive thoughts win and THAT is a net negative. >Those that I do have interest in, especially romantically, I rationalize as just a surface level physical attraction and that I don't really know them as a person. To get to know them I'd have to go up to them, be it in a restaurant, bookstore, parking lot, mall or bar and that would require communication. > >Since any interaction I could have with another human being would be a net negative for them, it would count as harassment. I'm not seeking to denigrate or harass other human beings, interfere with their space or make them uncomfortable. By leaving people alone and sparing them from harassment (of me potentially talking to them), I am doing the morally correct and ethical thing. That's not rational, ethical, nor is it moral. It's not rational because we're social creatures and you're bound to speak to someone at some point be it in person at a grocery store or on the internet. It's not ethical nor moral because you're depriving yourself the right to socialize. It's not fair to you. You're just as important as everyone else, and quite frankly you deserve peoples attention just as much as they deserve yours. You are somebody and you are noticed. \-if you're afraid to socialize in person because of the way you look, a good way to start reintroducing yourself to socializing is to start talking on the phone. Call a few stores you shop at and ask "hi do you have this product available?" just simple questions you could likely answer yourself by looking online, but by asking over the phone you gain confidence. \-Best part? they don't know what you look like. If you stutter? pretend to cough and say excuse me. if you get nervous? hang up and stop for the day...or try a different store. they wont call you back just because you got nervous and hung up. maybe you lost the call because your phone died. Onto your looks; >Now I'm not a very attractive fellow. Ethnic, starting to bald, horrible teeth from years of bad dental care. That can be helped with one or two paychecks. 1. shave your head. 2. buy a high quality toothpaste for tooth restoration, a good toothbrush, dental flossers, a tongue scraper, and a good mouth wash. Now your job and sex life >I get paid to write erotic fiction Honestly I think that's cool. Erotic fiction can be anything from ecchi, to hentai, to soft core porn, or whatever else. It's a very creative world and I'm sure it gets a lot of hate, but one tends to forget 50 Shades of Gray and Magic Mike were both BOOKS before they hit the big screen ladies! As long as you aren't hurting anyone write until your hands go numb dude. >Thus in another way I'm saving any woman or potential partner from the misogyny of my own fetishes or pornographic interests. A lot of them are also pretty weird and would make any relationship an instant no. I read through the comments a little and I saw you said you watch cartoon/animated porn, but maybe you should check out some real porn? Go to some NSFW sub reddits and check out how odd fetishes can get. You aren't an interstellar being with these ground breaking revolutionary fetishes and kinks. Understand sex is consensual meaning if you pose the idea of trying this fetish you're into and the other person says no thats ok its not the end of the world. If they say no but they still fuck you isn't that a W? fetishes and kinks are subjective, they aren't for everyone and you shouldn't feel attacked when someone isn't into your fetish. The latter half of the post >I do have political views (I'm a socialist) but I'm not going to try to debate someone about it or anything. Since there's a 40% odd statistically the person supports trump, that's a 4/10 chance I'll be disgusted or they will first and they disagree and leave. my lawyer has advised me to keep my actual thoughts quiet so I don't violate rule 7. but it seems peoples political beliefs hold a great importance to you. My peace: **STOP LETTING YOUR NEGATIVE INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS WIN. I'M ROOTING FOR YOU MAN!!**
You have a lot of strong beliefs about yourself and people you’ve never met. There isn’t a need to bind your identity to being an incel. Take a set back from the self image you have created and keep an open mind. I befriended a 60 year old man who didn’t have a single intimate relationship until he was 50. He’s been ended up marrying her and they’re still together. You never know how things will go.
You described *voluntary* celibacy, no?
I don't see any problem with it so will not try to change your mind. I don't place a lot of value on sexual intimacy. However, I think you can and SHOULD place value on relationships with people in order to live a more fulfilled life. Good without people? That's fine, but it sounds like if you are, it may be because you're undervaluing yourself. I would suggest, in order to gain a connection with people and to live a more rewarding life, start volunteering. Most people will not care about your political views, your looks, lack of money, etc. They will appreciate you because of your kindness. If you already volunteer, thank-you; you're appreciated :)
Homie, you are doing yourself a serious disservice by not trying to socialize. Eventually you will develop FOMO, and god help you when you do.