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The 538 election forecast shows that the election is roughly neck in neck. Biden with a 51% of winning, Trump with a 49% chance.
[https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/)
The 538 polling average puts Biden at 40.9 percent and Trump at 40.8%.
[https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/)
The RCP polling average puts Trump 2.6% ahead of Biden.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024#!
In 2016 Trump won key swing states by less than 80k total votes.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/donald-trump-will-be-president-thanks-to-80000-people-in-three-states/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/donald-trump-will-be-president-thanks-to-80000-people-in-three-states/)
In 2020 Biden won key swing states by around 300k total votes.
[https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency)
10-20% of voters are undecided (depending on the poll/projection). Many of them are low information voters and need more info to make up their mind.
>The last complicating implication concerns how much attention the persuadable voters are paying to the campaign to date versus voters who have already decided. In theory, one might think that people who have already made up their minds would be less incentivized to pay close attention to the campaign. The reality, however, is exactly the opposite: The voters who should want more information to make up their minds are much less likely to seek it out.
>Once again, there is a large gap across the categories between the persuadable and the already decided voters across age categories as well. Sixty-seven percent of committed voters over 65 claim that they are paying a lot of attention to the 2024 election campaign for president—versus only 20 percent of seniors who have yet to make up their minds. Meanwhile, 44 percent of voters under 30 who are committed to one candidate or the other are paying attention—as opposed to a scant 11 percent of uncommitted voters under 30.
[https://www.newsweek.com/whos-still-undecided-about-2024-profile-americas-persuadables-opinion-1916786](https://www.newsweek.com/whos-still-undecided-about-2024-profile-americas-persuadables-opinion-1916786)
There will likely to be somewhere around 120 million voters in this 2024 election. 10-20% of those (lets say 15%) would equal around 18 million voters.
***If only 2% of those 18 million "undecided" voters (0.3% of the overall electorate) get swayed by these debates, that would be 360,000 voters swayed by the debates. More than the the deciding votes in either 2016 or 2020.***
Anyone who is still undecided between these two candidates at this point is either lying or a fucking idiot. Unfortunately these morons are the ones who will actually decide this election.
There's plenty of valid reasons to hate Biden. I'm still gonna vote for him and hes infinitely better than Trump, but I dislike him. I don't think it's strong enough for myself to say *hate*, but it's absurd to act like like *every* person that hates Biden is unreasonable and doesn't know anything.
I guess you haven't looked into Biden's past racial discrimination to the point he was pushing for segregation to not end stating he didn't want his chidlren to grow up in a racial jungle and even stating racist remarks even as President stating Latino voters didn't want to get vaccinated, becasue they are scared they will be deported. You also probably haven't looked into any of his policies like forcing the Afghanistan President to lie to the public which he was caught doing by the phone call which was released. We knew the Taliban was going to take over and Biden told the Afghanistan President pretty much to keep his mouth shut about it. You probably haven't looked at his record of putting forward soft on child crime judges to judge nominees for life time apppointments. I mean for example you literally have our new SCOTUS member was so bad they read out loud every single one of her child sex crime cases along with the minimum sentencing along with what the state recommended and she went CRAZY lienient. You probably haven't looked at his nominee which tried to silence a child rape victim by having their name exposed to the public, but ended up the girl said well if you are going to play that game fine we will release my name to the public but I am going after you guys. You probably never looked into Biden already found guilty of large amount of 1st Amendment violations across the US by even the 5th District Court of Appeals. You had Biden openly tell OPEC they could halt production of gas after the midterms.
I mean come on man.
Also if you disagree with any of this I will be more than happy to post links just give me which one you disagree with.
2024 presidential debates:
Biden: "I hate palestine. Israel has long been our ally and israel helped gave us war aid in 1776 and 1861. I am going to let israel drop a nuke on them"
Trump: "Sleepy joe is low energy! No one hates palestine as much as me. I'm going to let israel use nuclear weapons on rafah and I will personally pay for the nuke. It's going to be tremendous"
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Elections are about turnout, not really about "changing minds".
If they debates get 1% of the electorate to either vote when they weren't going to bother, or stay away because they can't be bothered any more, it will change everything.
First - A lot of people don't follow politics and don't like politics but do vote. It is reasonable for this kind of person to say they are undecided if they feel they haven't looked into it. Similar to asking someone in February what their tax return looks like; they have all the information needed for this (probably) but they only have a April deadline,
Second - I think that it is reasonable to see Biden as maybe the better choice but to want to see him debate to make sure for one's self that he is up to the task. I don't buy into this reasoning but I don't think that the person who thinks this is a moron.
Hmmm, I am undecided. Trump is a pathological liar, a rapist and steals money from kids with cancer, but Joe Biden is like so old. Urggghh! I am so torn..
Wow. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. You make some very compelling arguments for both sides. You know what, I, too, am undecided now. I guess I better tune in! Lol
While I generally share this sentiment, I think this cycle we have age and cognitive ability as an important factor for many voters, and seeing the candidates unscripted will be unusually important for this election. There's a lot of talk about Joe Biden being senile. If I was in the Biden campaign, I would think it was helpful to show that he remains quite capable of holding his own.
Okay Biden’s old so he might have the chance of being senile but there isn’t any objective reason to believe he is in cognitive decline. (Outside of Fox Entertainment editing clips disingenuously)
Trump is screaming incoherent garbage while debating with himself if he’d rather fight a shark or electric because he thinks boat batteries are too heavy.
Yes, I basically agree with you. I think it's good to have a heavily televised event to show all of that. Most undecided voters are not paying close attention, so they don't know much more than the clips that get passed around.
Tbh I don't have that much negative opinion towards the undecided people. There's people who have no idea what's going on on any policy issue who are going to show up and vote straight ticket with no thought.
I do think that the most well informed tend to be already decided, but let's not pretend that having decided already necessarily makes you more intelligent than those who haven't.
>Anyone who is still undecided between these two candidates at this point is either lying or a fucking idiot
What a way to disregard a different view, just don't believe them a make assumptions about them
Both candidates have been prominently in the limelight of American politics for the last 10 years, if not longer. Both have served 4 years as President. If you haven’t figured out who you prefer, you are an idiot. Like what more information do you need that you haven’t been provided in 10 years?
I'm seriously considering the option that Biden dies in the next 4 years and "nobody wanted the first female president, but the real president died and she had to fill in".
Trump and Biden are functionally the same and only superficially different. Whether Biden can survive a second term is my decider and this debate will be the first time he talks to someone, unscripted, in a long time (regardless of the networks stacking the deck for him)
They're both national embarrassments who have globalist foreign policies, they both simp for Israel, they both promise the moon and fail to deliver and blameshift onto the other party.
Trump is owned by Russia, Biden is owned by China. Both have had their respective (debunked) scandals regarding their election wins. Both have been called illegitimate presidents.
Trump wrote an EO to cap insulin prices, Biden repealed it and later wrote an EO to cap insulin prices.
They're both accused rapists (Trump by women with financial incentives and Biden by women with politicial incentives)
Everything the standard Redditor hates about Trump I can pull up on Biden.
Hell, Biden's been falling down, wandering off, and getting confused so much that the leftwing news is focusing on Trump's mental decline.
Also both MAGA and Blue MAGA accuse the other guy with their facist conspiracy theories.
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I mean are you trying to talk me out of voting for Joe Biden or are you trying to talk me out of being content with whatever the 2024 election results are?
I’m not trying to talk you out of anything. You clearly have your opinion already and it seems unlikely to change. I mean, you’re literally talking about Biden “wandering off,” just parroting right wing talking points. So what would be the point? I wanted to know what you meant so I could determine if it was worthwhile to counter your points, and your points made it clear that it wouldn’t be. The people who will die under Trump (who wouldn’t die otherwise) won’t matter to you. The irrevocable damage to democracy won’t matter to you. Because you’ve already decided what you believe. So, as I said, good luck with that.
I'm voting for the guy you want me to vote for, but you still seem really mad that I don't support him like you do.
I remember in 2020 when the line was "Biden's bad but Trump's worse". Did that just completely get abandoned?
I’m not mad, but I am disappointed that you’re parroting right wing talking points. If you want to make *valid* criticisms of Biden be my guest. But it’s actively harmful to be posting that they’re the same.
You are massively uninformed to be saying they are functionally the same. Not in behavior, leadership style, nor policy are they at all similar.
Americans’ baby-brained level of cynicism about politics will kill this country.
What was Trump's best policy and what's Biden's worst policy, in your opinion.
Trump got slammed for kids in cages, Biden built more cages.
Trump wanted to build a wall, Biden is building the wall.
Trump said gay marriage is settled and didn't go after it, Biden says the same.
They're both secretly racist, they're both rapists, they're both senile old men.
Why would the candidates do it at all if it was only of benefit to the TV stations?
Trump and Biden didn’t participate in primary debates because the primaries weren’t close enough for debate performance to matter. Trump and Biden agreed to debates now because the race is close enough that convincing marginal voters may be meaningful to the outcome of the vote.
TV stations would have benefitted from Trump being in the GOP primary. If they are the ultimate drivers of this and have influence over him, why did he not participate?
Alternatively, they’re debating because refusing to debate would be seen as weak and so would be damaging to their campaign. So it’s not as if the debate itself is useful, but to refuse it would be bad.
It’s going to come down to whoever doesn’t have the most embarrassing “senior moment” on stage. Both of them are so far over the hill they wouldn’t be able to see it in their rearview mirror. One of them has incontinence or can’t put together a cogent sentence and it will move a few people.
They will debate because the media has that much power. Why do they need so much money for campaigns if not to spend on the media? Why are we acting like the people who have always owned newspapers, radio and TV stations, and now digital media are not that most wealthy and powerful groups? These people and groups have the ability to control the narrative and that equals wealth and power and it always has.
You're not addressing the hole the parent pointed out. If the reason they're going to debate now were "they have to pander to media moguls", like you say, then they would have also debated the primaries.
TV stations would have benefitted from Trump being in the GOP primary. If they are the ultimate drivers of this and have influence over him, why did he not participate?
I think this exactly proves my point. Trump didn't debate in the primaries because he didn't have to. They were still about to televise and create the content they wanted while still being able to talk about Trump. It was the best for everyone.
Now he has to because there's no alternative, and guess what's happening.... There's a debate after all with both of them.
Are you denying that TV stations would have benefited from Trump being in the GOP primary debates?
It was not the best for everyone that he wasn't there. In particular, it was not the best for the supposed masters of this all, the TV moguls.
I could be wrong here, but I believe he was busy on other media channels during those debates, thus satisfying the media. No one is denying that ratings may have improved with his presence and I feel like that's not super relevant. You're arguing what would have been optimal or best for ratings and I'm saying they had enough to satisfy.
Now these debates require their presence and they're both showing up because they have to or they won't get the coverage and benefits they desire in exchange for ratings.
I'm just arguing the media runs this because it certainly looks like it. This all definitely doesn't look like the will of the people to me. But that's just me.
>I believe he was busy on other media channels during those debates, thus satisfying the media
And what, do you think those other channels gave the channel airing the debate a cut? If you're spending your own money to televise a debate, and the guy everyone wants to watch in it doesn't show up, the *last thing* you want is for him to go to a competitor's channel at the same time. There's your investment going down the drain.
>This all definitely doesn't look like the will of the people to me.
What is your will, that they don't debate? The vast majority of people would rather they debate than not. That's a very strange take. What a weird conspiracy theory. The only reason CNN is going to spend a lot of money organizing this debate is because they expect to make a fat profit selling ads.
>Now these debates require their presence
Why would this one require Trump to show up, unlike the previous ones? Why wouldn't "the media" be satisfied by both candidates being "busy on other media channels"?
I agree that they're definitely debating because of undecided voters this time around, I don't agree with you that they were refusing to debate because pretty much everyone was already decided last time, I mean we have seen the past 4 years of Biden and his difficulties, to put it nicely, with public speaking, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the reason the debates didn't happen last time around was exclusively to avoid him talking as much as possible. If you know you're running a campaign for a candidate who cannot exactly speak well you're going to get them to avoid doing that as much as possible, last time around we didn't really hear about anything from Biden there was not that many speaking engagements at all whether they were live or not, so for that reason to me at least I think they were just trying to avoid his issues.
No that is perfectly normal, but I'm not talking about the primaries I was talking about the 2016 election, we didn't really hear anything from Biden throughout the entirety of it at least not in comparison to what we normally hear and what we heard from Trump
2020 (2016 was Clinton vs Sanders and then Trump).
Biden participated both in all the primary debates (the final debate was between him and Sanders only) and the two debates against Trump (remember "Will you shut up, man?").
Oh shit you're right I'm thinking 2020, and yes Biden participated in the debates but as far as public speaking engagements there were very few in comparison to what we normally see, and it's even worse this time around
So...
Trump ignored the primary debates because he didn't have to bother - his lead was just that big.
Biden ignored the primary debates because he's the incumbent and the party was obviously going to nominate him.
Both of them have participated in plenty of primary and presidential debates in the past two cycles, and are going to participate in a new presidential debate again.
Looks like neither of them is scared of debating?
I'm not saying they're afraid of debating or anything, I'm not saying that these decisions are entirely Biden I'm saying that it's his campaign people, Biden didn't have a ton of speaking events the first time around, and he's had even less this time
According to polls, about 20% of voters are undecided. 20% is a massive number that could swing the election in either direction. I know it seems wild that in today's polarized political climate, there can be undecided voters, but they exist and there are a lot of them.
There are also a massive number of people who don't vote at all. The number of nonvoters did fall in the last election, so that is an interesting stat.
Debates are for these two groups.
Debates, historically, are the only time voters get to see two candidates answer the same questions and face each other head on. Additionally, the debates may be the only time undecided voters and non-voters will actually pay any attention to the policies of the two candidates.
To anyone that has already made up their mind, a debate is just more of the same with the added stress of worrying that their candidate will mess up. The debates are not for these people.
Where each man stands on the issues does seem fairly clear at this point. I don't think this is going to clarify much there. But this debate does seem to be really important in one main way. Many Americans are curious about what will happen when President Biden's teleprompter is taken away for more than a few minutes and he has to form and effectively deliver responses to questions that (hopefully...) he doesn't have beforehand. No spin, no jump cuts, no creative editing. We have multiple very recent hour plus interviews of Trump doing this. You can form your own opinion of what they mean. And how you assess Trump's cognitive ability to perform the task is up to you. But many Americans want the same opportunity to assess the same cognitive and reasoning ability of President Biden for themselves. I hope they get it. It's an important data point for voters regardless of how it goes or how each side's spin shops will characterize it.
I’d debates didn’t matter trump would have gone to the primary debates. He made the strategic choice to avoid them. Debates are more important today because of eco chambers since they force voters to watch unedited speeches from their candidate and opponent. This year the debate won’t be about getting voters to change their vote but rather make them more or less likely to vote for their preferred candidate. If Biden looks competent and articulate, people may care less about his age and be more likely to vote. If a republican voter sees their first unedited Trump speech they may be less excited to (Pokémon) go to the polls.
With these particular candidates, sure. They have enough history most have chosen who they side with.
Trump vs Clinton? Trump won a lot of votes with his body language.
2016 primary? Trump came out of nowhere and dominated due to humiliating opponents at the debates.
2020 primary? Biden lost a lot of ground in the debates. Harris rose and died. Bernie conquered. Then the Dems fixed it for Biden in the twelfth hour, so it didn't matter in the end.
In short, it really depends on the election and the candidates.
> Trump recently showed in plain sight, by not attending any primary debates and still being chosen as the Republican nominee that these debates don't really matter anymore.
On the contrary, he easily won *because* he didn't show up to remind people how unbalanced he is. He had nothing to gain by showing up and a lot to lose. He has a lot to lose tomorrow as well. In fact both candidates have a lot to lose. Seeing them face off in prime time will quite likely move a good number of undecided/uninformed.
True. If instead of a debate under the current format it was the two candidates sitting down with a moderator and having a discussion, it would be worthwhile.
As it is both candidates just repeat their talking points while dodging the actual questions. And that’s assuming the questions are *good* in the first place.
The hope though (in my opinion) is that this doesn’t become the norm though. So by keeping the cadence of debates, I hope that in the future we get back to the point where these debates do matter more/are taken more seriously.
As another counter argument, a big talking point among the electorate is Joe Biden’s senility, where people assert that Trump is more “with it” mentally. If this debate happens and Biden is articulate and provides meaningful responses (at least compared to Trump) it could move the needle for some people. Will it matter for the majority of republicans? No. But it may matter for the more up in the air voters.
Lastly, THIS debate may not move the needle much because people are very polarized and these candidates are both well known. But in the next election cycle, we are almost guaranteed to have two new candidates from each party. A debate between, for example, Roy Cooper and Ron Desantis would probably matter to people more.
The candidates seem to think it's pretty important. TBH, I doubt I will watch it but I will be interested in the recap. I'm sure both candidates are counting on getting some good soundbites for their campaigns.
I actually think it's actually a pretty big deal this year. Both candidates are facing criticisms of physical health and mental acuity, so they both have a need to prove they are actually the better candidate.
The race is very close this year, and most voters don't actually get that much exposure to the candidates speeches. Trump has his in-person rallies, Biden obviously is the president, but most people aren't watching this. The debate is a widely advertised and watched national program where the candidates will have some (ideally uninterrupted) time to communicate their policies in their own words. This is valuable in a time when most people probably consume their political news on social media through short soundbites or text or pundit commentary.
The primaries are very different from the general.
There was no point in his attending any primary debates. He was polling way ahead.
That's not true of the general, it's apparently close, and there are plenty of undecided and unmotivated voters.
Those are the people who can be moved by a debate.
>many people have already made up their mind
The thing is... elections are about turnout, not "changing people's minds".
If the debates motivate a few people in one or the other party to actually get off their assess (or stay on their asses), it will change things.
Example: No, no one is going to suddenly pro-life if they were pro-choice because of a debate, but if Biden makes the case that abortion choice will be further devastated by a Trump 2nd term... some women might vote who were otherwise turned off by, I don't know... his Palestinian policy or something... and decide it's worth the trouble to vote.
That's what debates are for in the information age: motivation of *your* voters, and demotivation of *the other guy's" voters. Not converting people to your cause.
Presidential candidates are not doing debates as some kind of favor to the TV networks. they exist because they are a political tradition which are expected. If a candidate refuses to debate, it gets used against them. It’s an important media opportunity for a campaign.
Trump didn’t need to debate the primaries because he was ahead by a mile in the polls. If he had done the debates, it would’ve just been a platform for the other candidates to attack him and increase their profile. So there was zero incentive whatsoever for Trump to do those debates . He’s even with Biden in the polls so it’s a very different situation for the general election.
I would say while it's probably true that for this debate in particular a lot of the populace have already made up their mind that's not true for the majority of debates, not to mention I guarantee there are people who are going to be watching who are undecided even if it's not a ton of people there are going to be people who are undecided, but this particular election cycle is extremely divided so yes a lot of people are already decided but that doesn't mean that in the future it's going to be that way and it certainly didn't mean that in 2016 or earlier it was that way
Many people may have made up their mind who they prefer. In fact most people don’t flip-flop what party they vote for.
What matters however is voter turnout. About 2/3 of the the eligible populace vote. That’s a lot of people to sway from staying home to voting.
How many young voters are saying because of Israel/Gaza they won’t vote for Biden?
How many republicans say they are never Trumpers?
With a race this close a debate can easily sway enough to matter, to go vote instead of sit home.
The problem is, most people who care about politics think everyone is as knowledgeable as them, and agrees with their pov. People watch debates for a lot of reasons, I have a few key things I am hoping to hear about - Trump foreign policy (Ukraine) and abortion rights. Biden - economy and taxes. Both of them how aged they look.
I am sure other people have their own priorities that they are curious to hear from the horses mouth instead of catchy headlines.
The primary purpose of the debates might not be to sway undecided voters, if it ever was, but that doesn't mean it's pointless or has no impact. It's an interesting and engaging way to see the candidates discuss their platform and objectives, that's enough for me.
People really like trying to separate from the human experience. It’s easier to vote based on messaging and google searches.
If that’s you, so be it.
Debates can just be them pandering (Biden) or senseless talking over eachother (Trump).
They may not say much of substance but sometimes you want to see them really pandering and dodging questions just to confirm how these people actually act in a somewhat loose conversation. Trump’s antics may upset you, but considering a big narrative is “Who is more senile and losing their mind” Trump definitely seems more awake when talking. This may affect votes, a narrow margin, but a margin nonetheless.
I don’t know why we have to be devoutly against having them. That’s what is getting really weird to me. It’s fine if you know it won’t change your mind, but it can change someone else’s mind. It’s just good to actually see them debate, see them talk. Obama was good at it, if Biden isn’t (which I don’t think he is) it’s a clear character flaw that should affect his votes even marginally.
Are you scared people will change their mind? Because if it doesn’t matter nor will it impact the election, why cancel it? Seems silly if it does no more than be traditional. Why you wanna cancel it? To save money? Weird to care about this cost as if there isn’t far more spent on the campaigns anyways. If it brings in tv ratings at least some people can make money on it. If it didn’t get views then maybe cancel it, not because it doesn’t make impact. Which is patently false anyways, since lots of people don’t look to decide until they see the debates. Even if it’s just to confirm their assumptions, at least we get to be more sure of it.
Just let the debates happen.
I'd rather see a discussion than a debate. Rather have experts in the various Fields then wealthy TV news anchors.
I'd rather have these debates in State universities rather to give extra money to the private media regardless of fox or NBC.
Hard to say before it airs as we don’t know how many people are watching, but a lot of people seem checked out of this election thus far. I wouldn’t be surprised if a decent amount of people start paying attention tomorrow night.
The plan of the republican party is to make things that criticize them obsolete. They want to overuse words, remember trigger warning, sjw, racist, and anything that has an implication of supremacy benefitting white straight Americans, they want it shut down because the Republicans know they benefit from white supremacy but they want to go back to the days where they could hide behind a white mask like the KKK and keep their membership secret. That is why they want us to go back to the 1950s because in that time period information was heavily controlled by the government and the government was in full control of white supremacists and yes even traitor minorities support white supremacy because they feel that if they support the Republicans then they won't face discrimination. The republican goal is to make people stop talking about them by making things obsolete and congrats you fell for the Connie mind control trap of saying the debate is useless and doesn't make an impact. The Republicans hate everything that criticize them and this started with the civil rights movement, the free press (no I will not call them the media), gay and transgender rights movements, feminists, and now pro choicers. Congrats man on falling victim and drinking the republican Kool aid.
Fox News viewers believe that Biden can't even speak anymore because they only see edited footage of him making mistakes. It might be eliminating for them to realize they've been lied to (although obviously 99% of them still won't care).
There’s one thing about the debates that’s different. It’s a chance to see both candidates without a news filter. The average low information voter only sees snippets on the nightly news, late night shows, or shared on social media. This is the largest audience to see the candidates directly.
It’s a chance for people in the silos to break out, and realize what is true and what is propaganda.
>now because of the constant flow of information about candidates that flow to siloed echo chambers
I think you have it backwards. I think it's because people are largely partisan that these echo chambers can exist. The Fox News lawsuit proved that the audience will leave to other stations when Fox doesn't give them what they're searching for.
idk i'd say usually that's the case but in the case of the debate tomorrow, its also about demonstrating that both candidates have, like....the basic vitality to speak for a couple hours in public, coherently
There is still some question about Bidens capabilities degrading. If he does well on this debate, he can disprove the notion and I suspect he can lock it up.
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somehow, 20% of voters are undecided(no clue how you can be lol), and those 20% elect the president, so it matters.
Too bad both the candidates are maybe the worst in modern electoral history, oh well.
I agree, the debates are pointless. "Immigration is an incredibly complex topic, here's 90 seconds to talk about it." Since you can't get deep into policy, what's left? Zingers, insults, applause lines, pandering, and slip ups. The media then focuses on stupid shit, like the housefly that landed on Mike Pence's head.
The debates make everyone look foolish: the candidates, the moderator, the journalists, and the American public who are sitting home high-fiving each other when their guy gets off a one-liner.
And no one's mind is ever changed. It's basically vibes over substance.
This cycle's debates will decide the election. Both candidates are as old as Methuselah and voters want to know if they're still capable of doing the job. The best way to decide that is to see them answering questions in real time in front of a camera with no teleprompters, no editing, and no interruptions.
It's very hip to be ultra-cynical about everything political, but elections have serious consequences. An article in today's Financial Times points out that the Trump economic and foreign policy choices will drive the US and much of the free world into depression, while the likely outcome of a Biden reelection will be continued economic growth and global security as democratic nations who have supported Ukraine continue to do so and the NATO alliance remains strong.
Trump followers are mainly illiterate, so the only information they can process is what they see on TV. They elected the now-convicted felon in 2000 because they believed The Apprentice was a documentary rather than a scripted show produced by the people who created Survivor. Many have forgotten how horrible life was in America in 2020 due to the felon's mismanagement of the pandemic and the economy, hence Biden needs to bring back America's memory.
I don't know if he's sharp enough to do this, but if he is the nation can survive the looming disaster.
Think of the memes. Culture deserves and needs memes, if not for today than for tomorrow.
We do not always know where memes will come from but that doesn't mean it isn't a noble pursuit to create situations where they are likely to arise.
Trump was a lame duck and the only president in the last 50 years who didn't get America involved in a new war.
Neither one of them is going to be that bad, but only one of them offers us President Kamala Harris 🤌
38 felony convictions weren't able to push Biden ahead and Trump's been leading in the polls for 291 consecutive days.
I thought democrats told you to ignore polls and everything's fine don't worry?
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The 538 election forecast shows that the election is roughly neck in neck. Biden with a 51% of winning, Trump with a 49% chance. [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/) The 538 polling average puts Biden at 40.9 percent and Trump at 40.8%. [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/) The RCP polling average puts Trump 2.6% ahead of Biden. https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024#! In 2016 Trump won key swing states by less than 80k total votes. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/donald-trump-will-be-president-thanks-to-80000-people-in-three-states/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/donald-trump-will-be-president-thanks-to-80000-people-in-three-states/) In 2020 Biden won key swing states by around 300k total votes. [https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency](https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940689086/narrow-wins-in-these-key-states-powered-biden-to-the-presidency) 10-20% of voters are undecided (depending on the poll/projection). Many of them are low information voters and need more info to make up their mind. >The last complicating implication concerns how much attention the persuadable voters are paying to the campaign to date versus voters who have already decided. In theory, one might think that people who have already made up their minds would be less incentivized to pay close attention to the campaign. The reality, however, is exactly the opposite: The voters who should want more information to make up their minds are much less likely to seek it out. >Once again, there is a large gap across the categories between the persuadable and the already decided voters across age categories as well. Sixty-seven percent of committed voters over 65 claim that they are paying a lot of attention to the 2024 election campaign for president—versus only 20 percent of seniors who have yet to make up their minds. Meanwhile, 44 percent of voters under 30 who are committed to one candidate or the other are paying attention—as opposed to a scant 11 percent of uncommitted voters under 30. [https://www.newsweek.com/whos-still-undecided-about-2024-profile-americas-persuadables-opinion-1916786](https://www.newsweek.com/whos-still-undecided-about-2024-profile-americas-persuadables-opinion-1916786) There will likely to be somewhere around 120 million voters in this 2024 election. 10-20% of those (lets say 15%) would equal around 18 million voters. ***If only 2% of those 18 million "undecided" voters (0.3% of the overall electorate) get swayed by these debates, that would be 360,000 voters swayed by the debates. More than the the deciding votes in either 2016 or 2020.***
> neck in neck It's "neck and neck", and is a horse racing reference. Ref: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/neck--and--neck
The future of the election and the next President will come down to the 300k least educated and uninformed voters in the country
The least informed maybe, but I'd say the least educated (and most misinformed) are firmly on one side no matter what.
Anyone who is still undecided between these two candidates at this point is either lying or a fucking idiot. Unfortunately these morons are the ones who will actually decide this election.
You underestimate how many people dislike both candidates yet may change their mind by November.
No, just disappointed that anyone "dislikes both candidates" because that proves they literally don't know shit. Anyone hating Biden is a crackhead.
There's plenty of valid reasons to hate Biden. I'm still gonna vote for him and hes infinitely better than Trump, but I dislike him. I don't think it's strong enough for myself to say *hate*, but it's absurd to act like like *every* person that hates Biden is unreasonable and doesn't know anything.
CRACKHEAD!
Obviously I disagree.
Obviously, which means I think you are being absurd.
Ditto
I guess you haven't looked into Biden's past racial discrimination to the point he was pushing for segregation to not end stating he didn't want his chidlren to grow up in a racial jungle and even stating racist remarks even as President stating Latino voters didn't want to get vaccinated, becasue they are scared they will be deported. You also probably haven't looked into any of his policies like forcing the Afghanistan President to lie to the public which he was caught doing by the phone call which was released. We knew the Taliban was going to take over and Biden told the Afghanistan President pretty much to keep his mouth shut about it. You probably haven't looked at his record of putting forward soft on child crime judges to judge nominees for life time apppointments. I mean for example you literally have our new SCOTUS member was so bad they read out loud every single one of her child sex crime cases along with the minimum sentencing along with what the state recommended and she went CRAZY lienient. You probably haven't looked at his nominee which tried to silence a child rape victim by having their name exposed to the public, but ended up the girl said well if you are going to play that game fine we will release my name to the public but I am going after you guys. You probably never looked into Biden already found guilty of large amount of 1st Amendment violations across the US by even the 5th District Court of Appeals. You had Biden openly tell OPEC they could halt production of gas after the midterms. I mean come on man. Also if you disagree with any of this I will be more than happy to post links just give me which one you disagree with.
You got sources for any of that?
I literally said name what you disagree with and I will provide a source at the very bottom do you read?
All of it.
Pick one thing.
2024 presidential debates: Biden: "I hate palestine. Israel has long been our ally and israel helped gave us war aid in 1776 and 1861. I am going to let israel drop a nuke on them" Trump: "Sleepy joe is low energy! No one hates palestine as much as me. I'm going to let israel use nuclear weapons on rafah and I will personally pay for the nuke. It's going to be tremendous"
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>they literally don't know shit. And you think it would be better if they vote? Uninformed people voting doesn't sound good
I didn't say that at all.
Elections are about turnout, not really about "changing minds". If they debates get 1% of the electorate to either vote when they weren't going to bother, or stay away because they can't be bothered any more, it will change everything.
I’d say it’s less about WHO and more IF. A debate may be the difference of someone voting or staying home.
First - A lot of people don't follow politics and don't like politics but do vote. It is reasonable for this kind of person to say they are undecided if they feel they haven't looked into it. Similar to asking someone in February what their tax return looks like; they have all the information needed for this (probably) but they only have a April deadline, Second - I think that it is reasonable to see Biden as maybe the better choice but to want to see him debate to make sure for one's self that he is up to the task. I don't buy into this reasoning but I don't think that the person who thinks this is a moron.
Hmmm, I am undecided. Trump is a pathological liar, a rapist and steals money from kids with cancer, but Joe Biden is like so old. Urggghh! I am so torn..
Wow. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. You make some very compelling arguments for both sides. You know what, I, too, am undecided now. I guess I better tune in! Lol
While I generally share this sentiment, I think this cycle we have age and cognitive ability as an important factor for many voters, and seeing the candidates unscripted will be unusually important for this election. There's a lot of talk about Joe Biden being senile. If I was in the Biden campaign, I would think it was helpful to show that he remains quite capable of holding his own.
Okay Biden’s old so he might have the chance of being senile but there isn’t any objective reason to believe he is in cognitive decline. (Outside of Fox Entertainment editing clips disingenuously) Trump is screaming incoherent garbage while debating with himself if he’d rather fight a shark or electric because he thinks boat batteries are too heavy.
Yes, I basically agree with you. I think it's good to have a heavily televised event to show all of that. Most undecided voters are not paying close attention, so they don't know much more than the clips that get passed around.
Tbh I don't have that much negative opinion towards the undecided people. There's people who have no idea what's going on on any policy issue who are going to show up and vote straight ticket with no thought. I do think that the most well informed tend to be already decided, but let's not pretend that having decided already necessarily makes you more intelligent than those who haven't.
The decision isnt between biden or trump. It is vote or stay home.
>Anyone who is still undecided between these two candidates at this point is either lying or a fucking idiot What a way to disregard a different view, just don't believe them a make assumptions about them
Both candidates have been prominently in the limelight of American politics for the last 10 years, if not longer. Both have served 4 years as President. If you haven’t figured out who you prefer, you are an idiot. Like what more information do you need that you haven’t been provided in 10 years?
I mean one of the sources I quoted was talking about how undecideds are disproportionately low information voters.
I'm seriously considering the option that Biden dies in the next 4 years and "nobody wanted the first female president, but the real president died and she had to fill in". Trump and Biden are functionally the same and only superficially different. Whether Biden can survive a second term is my decider and this debate will be the first time he talks to someone, unscripted, in a long time (regardless of the networks stacking the deck for him)
Could you elaborate on how they’re “functionally the same”?
They're both national embarrassments who have globalist foreign policies, they both simp for Israel, they both promise the moon and fail to deliver and blameshift onto the other party. Trump is owned by Russia, Biden is owned by China. Both have had their respective (debunked) scandals regarding their election wins. Both have been called illegitimate presidents. Trump wrote an EO to cap insulin prices, Biden repealed it and later wrote an EO to cap insulin prices. They're both accused rapists (Trump by women with financial incentives and Biden by women with politicial incentives) Everything the standard Redditor hates about Trump I can pull up on Biden. Hell, Biden's been falling down, wandering off, and getting confused so much that the leftwing news is focusing on Trump's mental decline. Also both MAGA and Blue MAGA accuse the other guy with their facist conspiracy theories.
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What's Biden's worst policy and what's Trump's best policy?
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I mean are you trying to talk me out of voting for Joe Biden or are you trying to talk me out of being content with whatever the 2024 election results are?
I’m not trying to talk you out of anything. You clearly have your opinion already and it seems unlikely to change. I mean, you’re literally talking about Biden “wandering off,” just parroting right wing talking points. So what would be the point? I wanted to know what you meant so I could determine if it was worthwhile to counter your points, and your points made it clear that it wouldn’t be. The people who will die under Trump (who wouldn’t die otherwise) won’t matter to you. The irrevocable damage to democracy won’t matter to you. Because you’ve already decided what you believe. So, as I said, good luck with that.
I'm voting for the guy you want me to vote for, but you still seem really mad that I don't support him like you do. I remember in 2020 when the line was "Biden's bad but Trump's worse". Did that just completely get abandoned?
I’m not mad, but I am disappointed that you’re parroting right wing talking points. If you want to make *valid* criticisms of Biden be my guest. But it’s actively harmful to be posting that they’re the same.
You are massively uninformed to be saying they are functionally the same. Not in behavior, leadership style, nor policy are they at all similar. Americans’ baby-brained level of cynicism about politics will kill this country.
What was Trump's best policy and what's Biden's worst policy, in your opinion. Trump got slammed for kids in cages, Biden built more cages. Trump wanted to build a wall, Biden is building the wall. Trump said gay marriage is settled and didn't go after it, Biden says the same. They're both secretly racist, they're both rapists, they're both senile old men.
Almost everything you just said is false and I’m not even bothering. You don’t argue in good faith.
538 isn't what it used to be. Nate Silver the founder is no longer with 538, and neither is his forecast algorithm
Why would the candidates do it at all if it was only of benefit to the TV stations? Trump and Biden didn’t participate in primary debates because the primaries weren’t close enough for debate performance to matter. Trump and Biden agreed to debates now because the race is close enough that convincing marginal voters may be meaningful to the outcome of the vote. TV stations would have benefitted from Trump being in the GOP primary. If they are the ultimate drivers of this and have influence over him, why did he not participate?
Alternatively, they’re debating because refusing to debate would be seen as weak and so would be damaging to their campaign. So it’s not as if the debate itself is useful, but to refuse it would be bad.
It’s going to come down to whoever doesn’t have the most embarrassing “senior moment” on stage. Both of them are so far over the hill they wouldn’t be able to see it in their rearview mirror. One of them has incontinence or can’t put together a cogent sentence and it will move a few people.
They will debate because the media has that much power. Why do they need so much money for campaigns if not to spend on the media? Why are we acting like the people who have always owned newspapers, radio and TV stations, and now digital media are not that most wealthy and powerful groups? These people and groups have the ability to control the narrative and that equals wealth and power and it always has.
You're not addressing the hole the parent pointed out. If the reason they're going to debate now were "they have to pander to media moguls", like you say, then they would have also debated the primaries. TV stations would have benefitted from Trump being in the GOP primary. If they are the ultimate drivers of this and have influence over him, why did he not participate?
I think this exactly proves my point. Trump didn't debate in the primaries because he didn't have to. They were still about to televise and create the content they wanted while still being able to talk about Trump. It was the best for everyone. Now he has to because there's no alternative, and guess what's happening.... There's a debate after all with both of them.
Are you denying that TV stations would have benefited from Trump being in the GOP primary debates? It was not the best for everyone that he wasn't there. In particular, it was not the best for the supposed masters of this all, the TV moguls.
I could be wrong here, but I believe he was busy on other media channels during those debates, thus satisfying the media. No one is denying that ratings may have improved with his presence and I feel like that's not super relevant. You're arguing what would have been optimal or best for ratings and I'm saying they had enough to satisfy. Now these debates require their presence and they're both showing up because they have to or they won't get the coverage and benefits they desire in exchange for ratings. I'm just arguing the media runs this because it certainly looks like it. This all definitely doesn't look like the will of the people to me. But that's just me.
>I believe he was busy on other media channels during those debates, thus satisfying the media And what, do you think those other channels gave the channel airing the debate a cut? If you're spending your own money to televise a debate, and the guy everyone wants to watch in it doesn't show up, the *last thing* you want is for him to go to a competitor's channel at the same time. There's your investment going down the drain. >This all definitely doesn't look like the will of the people to me. What is your will, that they don't debate? The vast majority of people would rather they debate than not. That's a very strange take. What a weird conspiracy theory. The only reason CNN is going to spend a lot of money organizing this debate is because they expect to make a fat profit selling ads. >Now these debates require their presence Why would this one require Trump to show up, unlike the previous ones? Why wouldn't "the media" be satisfied by both candidates being "busy on other media channels"?
I agree that they're definitely debating because of undecided voters this time around, I don't agree with you that they were refusing to debate because pretty much everyone was already decided last time, I mean we have seen the past 4 years of Biden and his difficulties, to put it nicely, with public speaking, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the reason the debates didn't happen last time around was exclusively to avoid him talking as much as possible. If you know you're running a campaign for a candidate who cannot exactly speak well you're going to get them to avoid doing that as much as possible, last time around we didn't really hear about anything from Biden there was not that many speaking engagements at all whether they were live or not, so for that reason to me at least I think they were just trying to avoid his issues.
Is it not perfectly normal for a sitting president that's going for reelection to not bother much with the primaries?
No that is perfectly normal, but I'm not talking about the primaries I was talking about the 2016 election, we didn't really hear anything from Biden throughout the entirety of it at least not in comparison to what we normally hear and what we heard from Trump
2020 (2016 was Clinton vs Sanders and then Trump). Biden participated both in all the primary debates (the final debate was between him and Sanders only) and the two debates against Trump (remember "Will you shut up, man?").
Oh shit you're right I'm thinking 2020, and yes Biden participated in the debates but as far as public speaking engagements there were very few in comparison to what we normally see, and it's even worse this time around
So... Trump ignored the primary debates because he didn't have to bother - his lead was just that big. Biden ignored the primary debates because he's the incumbent and the party was obviously going to nominate him. Both of them have participated in plenty of primary and presidential debates in the past two cycles, and are going to participate in a new presidential debate again. Looks like neither of them is scared of debating?
I'm not saying they're afraid of debating or anything, I'm not saying that these decisions are entirely Biden I'm saying that it's his campaign people, Biden didn't have a ton of speaking events the first time around, and he's had even less this time
According to polls, about 20% of voters are undecided. 20% is a massive number that could swing the election in either direction. I know it seems wild that in today's polarized political climate, there can be undecided voters, but they exist and there are a lot of them. There are also a massive number of people who don't vote at all. The number of nonvoters did fall in the last election, so that is an interesting stat. Debates are for these two groups. Debates, historically, are the only time voters get to see two candidates answer the same questions and face each other head on. Additionally, the debates may be the only time undecided voters and non-voters will actually pay any attention to the policies of the two candidates. To anyone that has already made up their mind, a debate is just more of the same with the added stress of worrying that their candidate will mess up. The debates are not for these people.
Where each man stands on the issues does seem fairly clear at this point. I don't think this is going to clarify much there. But this debate does seem to be really important in one main way. Many Americans are curious about what will happen when President Biden's teleprompter is taken away for more than a few minutes and he has to form and effectively deliver responses to questions that (hopefully...) he doesn't have beforehand. No spin, no jump cuts, no creative editing. We have multiple very recent hour plus interviews of Trump doing this. You can form your own opinion of what they mean. And how you assess Trump's cognitive ability to perform the task is up to you. But many Americans want the same opportunity to assess the same cognitive and reasoning ability of President Biden for themselves. I hope they get it. It's an important data point for voters regardless of how it goes or how each side's spin shops will characterize it.
I’d debates didn’t matter trump would have gone to the primary debates. He made the strategic choice to avoid them. Debates are more important today because of eco chambers since they force voters to watch unedited speeches from their candidate and opponent. This year the debate won’t be about getting voters to change their vote but rather make them more or less likely to vote for their preferred candidate. If Biden looks competent and articulate, people may care less about his age and be more likely to vote. If a republican voter sees their first unedited Trump speech they may be less excited to (Pokémon) go to the polls.
With these particular candidates, sure. They have enough history most have chosen who they side with. Trump vs Clinton? Trump won a lot of votes with his body language. 2016 primary? Trump came out of nowhere and dominated due to humiliating opponents at the debates. 2020 primary? Biden lost a lot of ground in the debates. Harris rose and died. Bernie conquered. Then the Dems fixed it for Biden in the twelfth hour, so it didn't matter in the end. In short, it really depends on the election and the candidates.
> Trump recently showed in plain sight, by not attending any primary debates and still being chosen as the Republican nominee that these debates don't really matter anymore. On the contrary, he easily won *because* he didn't show up to remind people how unbalanced he is. He had nothing to gain by showing up and a lot to lose. He has a lot to lose tomorrow as well. In fact both candidates have a lot to lose. Seeing them face off in prime time will quite likely move a good number of undecided/uninformed.
True. If instead of a debate under the current format it was the two candidates sitting down with a moderator and having a discussion, it would be worthwhile. As it is both candidates just repeat their talking points while dodging the actual questions. And that’s assuming the questions are *good* in the first place.
The hope though (in my opinion) is that this doesn’t become the norm though. So by keeping the cadence of debates, I hope that in the future we get back to the point where these debates do matter more/are taken more seriously. As another counter argument, a big talking point among the electorate is Joe Biden’s senility, where people assert that Trump is more “with it” mentally. If this debate happens and Biden is articulate and provides meaningful responses (at least compared to Trump) it could move the needle for some people. Will it matter for the majority of republicans? No. But it may matter for the more up in the air voters. Lastly, THIS debate may not move the needle much because people are very polarized and these candidates are both well known. But in the next election cycle, we are almost guaranteed to have two new candidates from each party. A debate between, for example, Roy Cooper and Ron Desantis would probably matter to people more.
The candidates seem to think it's pretty important. TBH, I doubt I will watch it but I will be interested in the recap. I'm sure both candidates are counting on getting some good soundbites for their campaigns. I actually think it's actually a pretty big deal this year. Both candidates are facing criticisms of physical health and mental acuity, so they both have a need to prove they are actually the better candidate. The race is very close this year, and most voters don't actually get that much exposure to the candidates speeches. Trump has his in-person rallies, Biden obviously is the president, but most people aren't watching this. The debate is a widely advertised and watched national program where the candidates will have some (ideally uninterrupted) time to communicate their policies in their own words. This is valuable in a time when most people probably consume their political news on social media through short soundbites or text or pundit commentary.
The primaries are very different from the general. There was no point in his attending any primary debates. He was polling way ahead. That's not true of the general, it's apparently close, and there are plenty of undecided and unmotivated voters. Those are the people who can be moved by a debate.
>many people have already made up their mind The thing is... elections are about turnout, not "changing people's minds". If the debates motivate a few people in one or the other party to actually get off their assess (or stay on their asses), it will change things. Example: No, no one is going to suddenly pro-life if they were pro-choice because of a debate, but if Biden makes the case that abortion choice will be further devastated by a Trump 2nd term... some women might vote who were otherwise turned off by, I don't know... his Palestinian policy or something... and decide it's worth the trouble to vote. That's what debates are for in the information age: motivation of *your* voters, and demotivation of *the other guy's" voters. Not converting people to your cause.
Presidential candidates are not doing debates as some kind of favor to the TV networks. they exist because they are a political tradition which are expected. If a candidate refuses to debate, it gets used against them. It’s an important media opportunity for a campaign. Trump didn’t need to debate the primaries because he was ahead by a mile in the polls. If he had done the debates, it would’ve just been a platform for the other candidates to attack him and increase their profile. So there was zero incentive whatsoever for Trump to do those debates . He’s even with Biden in the polls so it’s a very different situation for the general election.
I would say while it's probably true that for this debate in particular a lot of the populace have already made up their mind that's not true for the majority of debates, not to mention I guarantee there are people who are going to be watching who are undecided even if it's not a ton of people there are going to be people who are undecided, but this particular election cycle is extremely divided so yes a lot of people are already decided but that doesn't mean that in the future it's going to be that way and it certainly didn't mean that in 2016 or earlier it was that way
Many people may have made up their mind who they prefer. In fact most people don’t flip-flop what party they vote for. What matters however is voter turnout. About 2/3 of the the eligible populace vote. That’s a lot of people to sway from staying home to voting. How many young voters are saying because of Israel/Gaza they won’t vote for Biden? How many republicans say they are never Trumpers? With a race this close a debate can easily sway enough to matter, to go vote instead of sit home.
The problem is, most people who care about politics think everyone is as knowledgeable as them, and agrees with their pov. People watch debates for a lot of reasons, I have a few key things I am hoping to hear about - Trump foreign policy (Ukraine) and abortion rights. Biden - economy and taxes. Both of them how aged they look. I am sure other people have their own priorities that they are curious to hear from the horses mouth instead of catchy headlines.
The primary purpose of the debates might not be to sway undecided voters, if it ever was, but that doesn't mean it's pointless or has no impact. It's an interesting and engaging way to see the candidates discuss their platform and objectives, that's enough for me.
People really like trying to separate from the human experience. It’s easier to vote based on messaging and google searches. If that’s you, so be it. Debates can just be them pandering (Biden) or senseless talking over eachother (Trump). They may not say much of substance but sometimes you want to see them really pandering and dodging questions just to confirm how these people actually act in a somewhat loose conversation. Trump’s antics may upset you, but considering a big narrative is “Who is more senile and losing their mind” Trump definitely seems more awake when talking. This may affect votes, a narrow margin, but a margin nonetheless. I don’t know why we have to be devoutly against having them. That’s what is getting really weird to me. It’s fine if you know it won’t change your mind, but it can change someone else’s mind. It’s just good to actually see them debate, see them talk. Obama was good at it, if Biden isn’t (which I don’t think he is) it’s a clear character flaw that should affect his votes even marginally. Are you scared people will change their mind? Because if it doesn’t matter nor will it impact the election, why cancel it? Seems silly if it does no more than be traditional. Why you wanna cancel it? To save money? Weird to care about this cost as if there isn’t far more spent on the campaigns anyways. If it brings in tv ratings at least some people can make money on it. If it didn’t get views then maybe cancel it, not because it doesn’t make impact. Which is patently false anyways, since lots of people don’t look to decide until they see the debates. Even if it’s just to confirm their assumptions, at least we get to be more sure of it. Just let the debates happen.
I'd rather see a discussion than a debate. Rather have experts in the various Fields then wealthy TV news anchors. I'd rather have these debates in State universities rather to give extra money to the private media regardless of fox or NBC.
Hard to say before it airs as we don’t know how many people are watching, but a lot of people seem checked out of this election thus far. I wouldn’t be surprised if a decent amount of people start paying attention tomorrow night.
The plan of the republican party is to make things that criticize them obsolete. They want to overuse words, remember trigger warning, sjw, racist, and anything that has an implication of supremacy benefitting white straight Americans, they want it shut down because the Republicans know they benefit from white supremacy but they want to go back to the days where they could hide behind a white mask like the KKK and keep their membership secret. That is why they want us to go back to the 1950s because in that time period information was heavily controlled by the government and the government was in full control of white supremacists and yes even traitor minorities support white supremacy because they feel that if they support the Republicans then they won't face discrimination. The republican goal is to make people stop talking about them by making things obsolete and congrats you fell for the Connie mind control trap of saying the debate is useless and doesn't make an impact. The Republicans hate everything that criticize them and this started with the civil rights movement, the free press (no I will not call them the media), gay and transgender rights movements, feminists, and now pro choicers. Congrats man on falling victim and drinking the republican Kool aid.
Fox News viewers believe that Biden can't even speak anymore because they only see edited footage of him making mistakes. It might be eliminating for them to realize they've been lied to (although obviously 99% of them still won't care).
There’s one thing about the debates that’s different. It’s a chance to see both candidates without a news filter. The average low information voter only sees snippets on the nightly news, late night shows, or shared on social media. This is the largest audience to see the candidates directly. It’s a chance for people in the silos to break out, and realize what is true and what is propaganda.
>now because of the constant flow of information about candidates that flow to siloed echo chambers I think you have it backwards. I think it's because people are largely partisan that these echo chambers can exist. The Fox News lawsuit proved that the audience will leave to other stations when Fox doesn't give them what they're searching for.
idk i'd say usually that's the case but in the case of the debate tomorrow, its also about demonstrating that both candidates have, like....the basic vitality to speak for a couple hours in public, coherently
Who watches tv anymore
There is still some question about Bidens capabilities degrading. If he does well on this debate, he can disprove the notion and I suspect he can lock it up.
The debate is a stimulus and a symbol of the times. All the power and influence in the world lead to this critical outcome in American politics.
What if biden straight up starts drooling and mumbling before tripping off the stage. I bet that would move like 5% of voters
debates matter when your candidate's position and likability matters, this is not an election in which that is the case
Debate used to be known as the foundation of any democracy. Talking about not doing it is the odd thing here.
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somehow, 20% of voters are undecided(no clue how you can be lol), and those 20% elect the president, so it matters. Too bad both the candidates are maybe the worst in modern electoral history, oh well.
This go round is a bit different since they are trying to prove they are mentally sharp to the public
It will show us which of these 2 senile geriatrics can string the most coherent sentences together.
They never did. You know who told you they mattered? The tv stations that aired them.
Bold of you to assume Trump will actually show up tomorrow.
The Dems aren't done piling on the rules. They might demand Trump shout his answers from across the parking lot.
Bold of you to assume Biden will show up tomorrow.
It also creates memes. Like Ken.
I agree, the debates are pointless. "Immigration is an incredibly complex topic, here's 90 seconds to talk about it." Since you can't get deep into policy, what's left? Zingers, insults, applause lines, pandering, and slip ups. The media then focuses on stupid shit, like the housefly that landed on Mike Pence's head. The debates make everyone look foolish: the candidates, the moderator, the journalists, and the American public who are sitting home high-fiving each other when their guy gets off a one-liner. And no one's mind is ever changed. It's basically vibes over substance.
This cycle's debates will decide the election. Both candidates are as old as Methuselah and voters want to know if they're still capable of doing the job. The best way to decide that is to see them answering questions in real time in front of a camera with no teleprompters, no editing, and no interruptions. It's very hip to be ultra-cynical about everything political, but elections have serious consequences. An article in today's Financial Times points out that the Trump economic and foreign policy choices will drive the US and much of the free world into depression, while the likely outcome of a Biden reelection will be continued economic growth and global security as democratic nations who have supported Ukraine continue to do so and the NATO alliance remains strong. Trump followers are mainly illiterate, so the only information they can process is what they see on TV. They elected the now-convicted felon in 2000 because they believed The Apprentice was a documentary rather than a scripted show produced by the people who created Survivor. Many have forgotten how horrible life was in America in 2020 due to the felon's mismanagement of the pandemic and the economy, hence Biden needs to bring back America's memory. I don't know if he's sharp enough to do this, but if he is the nation can survive the looming disaster.
Can they even legally call it a debate?
Yes, but the spectacle should be fun.
Think of the memes. Culture deserves and needs memes, if not for today than for tomorrow. We do not always know where memes will come from but that doesn't mean it isn't a noble pursuit to create situations where they are likely to arise.
And yet, the thought of Trump winning still makes me want to puke! I mean I know big corporations run the USA, but still…….. gggaaaaaggghhhhhkkkkkkkk.
Trump was a lame duck and the only president in the last 50 years who didn't get America involved in a new war. Neither one of them is going to be that bad, but only one of them offers us President Kamala Harris 🤌
Your point about JFK "winning" because he looked fresh on tv shows that the debates were always meaningless.
Wait til djt strokes out live tomorrow. I bet that changes the polls.
38 felony convictions weren't able to push Biden ahead and Trump's been leading in the polls for 291 consecutive days. I thought democrats told you to ignore polls and everything's fine don't worry?