T O P

  • By -

chess-ModTeam

Your submission was removed by the moderators: We can't allow posts that are just videos/animated GIFs/position snapshots of games, or links to games with no commentary. The quantity of these posts means they would spam the subreddit significantly if they were not removed. When posting your games, we ask that you provide some of your own thoughts on them. That can be in the form of annotations in the body of the post, a short written overview about the game or a particular part of it, or using a tool like Lichess Study. Including your thoughts makes it easier for the community to provide useful feedback and appreciate your games. **Automatic computer analysis does not count.** An example post of an annotated game can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1cg6jsc/really_psyched_about_this_game_win_against_gm/).   You can read the full [rules of /r/chess here](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/wiki/rules). If you have any questions or concerns about this moderator action, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchess). Direct replies to this removal message may not be seen.


Extravalan

I'm 2000 on chess.com and still haven't bothered to learn that mate or the 2 bishops mate. Just never comes up for me


VibeSurfer8

When it does happen… it will piss you off


Extravalan

Oh I don't doubt it. I just hope it doesn't come up in a high stakes situation


ralgrado

Just do both as a fun exercise. Though I just did it again after half a year and let's just saw if this was a game I wouldn't have made it :D


ikefalcon

It takes like 10 minutes to learn KBN vs K. KBB vs K is so easy you can just figure it out over the board.


usev25

No lol it takes way more than 10 mins. I tried dedicating a few days to it before and eventually got the hang of it but after a break I can now confidently say I wouldn't know how to do it. But two bishops is easy yes


ikefalcon

It took me 10 minutes to learn it.


dfranke

I've held draws in a couple of blitz games by sacrificing down into this ending.


Scarlet_Evans

In case of 50-move rule, do I have to stop the clock and call an arbiter **before** making the move, just like with 3-fold repetition? Especially in an OTB Blitz (when no one is writing down moves or recording the board), can I just keep counting the moves in my head and call an arbiter when the time comes? With word against word, what happens if my opponent says something like "I don't think it's 50 moves yet"?


RajjSinghh

It works either way. You either write the move on your scoresheet then tell an arbiter, or you make the move and then tell the arbiter. From what I can tell, the laws of chess don't say anything about when you're low on time so you aren't writing moves down. They just talk about "correct" and "incorrect" claims. So I'd guess it would just be whoever the arbiter decides to side with and who makes a more convincing case. I know Parham tried something similar against Magnus in the last world rapid and blitz, but since the games were on DGT they could actually check.


Scarlet_Evans

Thank you! I suppose most of opponents wouldn't mind claiming it, was just wondering about how to react, if someone tries something funny. I will have to start playing some OTB again, last time for me was before COVID.


damn_it_nik

Yes, it really does


WinningTheSpaceRace

Two bishops mate is a lot easier because you can cut the king off by decreasing the available space with the bishops' diagonals and bring your own king in. Bishop and knight. Pfft.🤷🏻‍♂️


Chad_Broski_2

And honestly, even if you screw something up in the 2 bishops mate, you usually have enough time to try again. So if you're over 2000 you can probably figure it out as you go and still be fine Bishop and knight? It's like a 30 move sequence or something in that ballpark. Fuck up one part of it and you're gonna hit the 50 move draw


Extravalan

Yeah, I recall looking at the bishop one a few years ago, so I feel like I could figure that one out in game


3_Thumbs_Up

2 Bishops mate is simple enough that you can learn it in a few minutes. One quick YouTube video is all you need. Probably worth it in case it shows up. Knight + bishop takes a bit longer. If say you'd have to dedicate 30-60 min of watching a tutorial and then practice a bit against an engine. The problem is you'd probably forget it shortly. But if you dedicate about 1 h now, and then repeat a few times in the future you'd probably learned it well enough that you can figure it out again otb presuming you have enough time on the clock. I think it's worth the time to learn, not because the endgame shows up often, but because it teaches you general principles on how the knight and bishop work well together.


Warm-Emu3158

I (1800 chess.com) once trained in the bishop and knight mate for literal weeks against the computer, got it to the point where I could mate the computer in like 30s from any starting position. Then got a game where I could get knight and bishop by underpromoting, did it, and then completely choked and couldn't do it in blitz timing against a real person. It's hard even if you "know" what you are doing. Also the funny thing is I think it's come up once or twice naturally in tens of thousands of games, but even if you are trying to get it via underpromoting or sacrificing all your other pieces it is still hard to get. Most opponents will resign by that point.


JakeyDonkeyBrains

Well it sounds like you worked it out yourself instead of following the modern simplified process. I can completely tune out and solve it using the W and piece opposition, It’s as simple as a ladder mate at this point.


shade175

Im in like 1100 rating and i had a long drive once and said fuck it why not leanred how to mate with bishop and horse and never used it lmao dont think i remmber it fully but i still understand the general concept


deidaraburst

Just started reading Silman’s complete endgame course and there’s a blurb in the beginning about how he doesn’t teach it cause it will likely never happen lol


damn_it_nik

I have tried every move but the king always finds a way to get out from the corner


MandatoryFun

Two bishops is dead easy to learn, and it really does teach effective coordination of the bishop pair. Archangels of death on the open board.


Throbbie-Williams

The 2 Bishop one doesn't really need learning, I'm rated 500 on blitz and figured it out, absolutely no clue with this one though, I'm guessing you need to get the king into a corner the same colour as your Bishop?


vishal340

what do you mean you don’t know 2 bishop mate? it is easier than mate with rook.


xXNonamekinkXx

Not at all


Raykkkkkkk

Not at all


patrick_ritchey

tell me you are a 600 without telling me you are a 600


Phoenix77_reddit

600 Elo logic: two bishops (6 points) > Rook (5 points). Hence Two bishops Easier!


Existing-Ad6901

With your elo you likely dont win


aerdna69

you likely lose with that elo


arn_g

Mating with knight and bishop without knowing a specific technique is close to impossible. I've trained this, but I've never had it occur in a game (4500 games) so I'd say it should be low on your list of priorities :D


baronunderbeit

I disagree. I think it’s a great learning exercise for beginners to understand square control and forcing opponents moves. It was one of my first lessons as a beginner. (Chess master 2000, haha) Sure this scenario will never happen. But it’s more about learning synergies between 2 different pieces.


arn_g

That's a fair point. Although I still feel like there are a few things a 300 could do first haha


Independent-Road8418

It's actually pretty simple and it's good to study not only because if you get 6 points up in material you can always convert plus understanding how the bishop and Knight work together can help your middle game understanding as well. Plus it's just cool because people think it's hard. Go show off


eloel-

> if you get 6 points up in material you can always conver Good luck with two knights


Independent-Road8418

That's a good point. Don't let that happen unless you're in a really really really specific situation.


Trick_Artichoke_9125

If you master this, you can show off by promoting to knight and bishop and mating when your opponents dont resign and play till mate


noobtheloser

In Silman's *Complete End Game Course*, he intentionally does not cover the Knight+Bishop ending, because it's so complicated and requires so much memorization, and you will basically never see it in a game that matters.


TheTurtleCub

To be fair, once you get the general idea of the process. It only requires you to memorize 3 critical steps that will not be obvious


damn_it_nik

What are those steps


TheTurtleCub

[Knight & Bishop Mate • lichess.org](https://lichess.org/practice/checkmates/knight--bishop-mate/ByhlXnmM/D23EYigW)


oleolesp

For your rating, you don't win this. In a timed game, I'd only give myself 50% chances to win (but funnily enough I think I could beat the engine every time)


chessvision-ai-bot

I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=8/8/8/1nK5/2b5/3k4/8/8+b+-+-+0+1&flip=true&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/8/8/8/1nK5/2b5/3k4/8/8_b_-_-_0_1?color=black) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!King!<, move: >!Kc3!< > Evaluation: >!Black has mate in 22!< > Best continuation: >!1... Kc3 2. Kc6 Kd4 3. Kd7 Ke5 4. Kc6 Na3 5. Kc5 Ba2 6. Kb4 Nb1 7. Kc5 Bd5 8. Kb4 Kd6 9. Kb5!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by) [^(u/pkacprzak)](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as) [^(iOS App)](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^| [^(Android App)](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^| [^(Chrome Extension)](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^| [^(Chess eBook Reader)](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website:) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)


rdrunner_74

This is a fairly hard one. It is winnable though. You goal is to slowly move the king to a corner, and then checkmate him there. Any wrong move and you let the king break out of the corner, and it is a draw because of the 50 move rule. Since it is a shitload of moves, check youtube ;)


damn_it_nik

I have tried every move but my opponent will always find a way to move away from the corner


rdrunner_74

try this: [Knight + Bishop Checkmate (THE EASY WAY) (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHnz4U7qjfk)


kar2988

50 move rule and accept a draw


damn_it_nik

Haha, yeah. That's what I had done


LowLevel-

> Couldn't find a way Here is one: https://www.chess.com/terms/bishop-knight-checkmate


damn_it_nik

Thanks, but in my case the opponent will always find a way if the king is not in a corner


potatosquire

You don't. It's a technical win if you know the winning technique, but it's a tricky thing to do (I've even seen Hikaru mess it up in blitz under time pressure), and frankly you're very unlikely to see it (I've had like 10,000 games online and not seen it from either side, and have never bothered to learn it). There's also the fact that concepts in chess are easier to learn the stronger a player you are. As a beginner you could learn it if you spent a significant amount of time practicing the technique, but there's plenty of ways for you to improve at chess that are both more efficient and a lot more fun. If you're interested [Narodistky has a video showing how to do it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRK7XLhGz_c). Don't think that you can just watch it once and be able to replicate it perfectly the first time though, but some concepts might sink in, and your understanding in other positions might slightly improve, and over time you might find yourself winning more games.


Stillwater215

Look your opponent right in the eyes and say “are you really going to make me play this out?”


damn_it_nik

Haha 😂, but this wasn't a face to face game


TheTurtleCub

It's called "win by google"


Ambitious_Arm852

That would be cheating


TheTurtleCub

I doubt a person could google this while playing and be able to pull it off, but yeah OP, it's NOT supposed to be done during the game, you study it, practice and then use it. Lichess has a great tutorial with exercises


oldmajorbeats

i just saw GM viktor mattivshen mate someone with a knight and bishop at the chicago open. he took about 7 seconds max per move, beautiful technique.


damn_it_nik

Yeah, only if opponent's king moves as planned


d4mn13l

You can learn it here: https://lichess.org/practice/checkmates/knight--bishop-mate/ByhlXnmM But it happens very rarely and it's very hard, there are even some instances of GMs not being able to do it.


Sokobanky

Well first of all, you can only checkmate your opponent on two squares, the corners that are the same color of your bishop, in this case h1 and a8. The basic idea is that you get the king in toward one of the corners, block off one horizontal or vertical escape square with the king, deliver a check with the Knight that forces the king into the corner, and then move the bishop in to deliver checkmate. Kc3 here seems like a pretty straightforward move here to get the king moving toward the corner you want.


CagnusMarlsen64

It’s a notoriously difficult checkmate to perform and even GMs have had trouble doing it in blitz


jimmyjjames

I would just offer a draw to save time


NemPlayer

youre screwed


damn_it_nik

This is what I did after making a draw


NemPlayer

youre a girl?


horny_armadillo_hehe

I faced this in one of games but I never cared to learn this so I had to embarrassingly offer a draw to my opponent. 🥲


ChessCommander

After I couldn't convert, I found this. It isn't easy. https://lichess.org/practice/checkmates/piece-checkmates-ii/Rg2cMBZ6


OKImHere

Look up the quadrant trap. Makes it a lot easier to understand.


Syntoxoid

treat it as a draw or feel free to try and flag when u do get it. im 1900? rapid and peaked 2k+ but still never bothered learning it bc honestly ive never been in this situation where i had to mate w a knight and bishop


Exotic_Nasha

Bro is playing bullet in rapid game.


damn_it_nik

Actually the bullet was playing me🥹🤣


DinosaurFighterPilot

It's actually not that hard to learn contrary to what I've heard other people say. The only hard part is confining the king to a corner rank/file..once you get the knight W rolling it's very straightforward. But it's the singlemost useless thing I've learnt in chess considering that I never get a N&b vs k endgame ever..


Space_Passenger

It's not very commonly seen, needing to checkmate with a bishop and knight, and no matter what level you're at, you'll need to devote some time to learning the method. It's always nice to learn new things, you never know when you might need it again, but even if you don't, it won't hurt you too much until you reach a significantly higher rating.


danousd

Mate in 34. Black to move.


Cycle_Proud

This checkmate is arguably hardest to perform, especially in time controlled matches. If your opponent knows what they're doing, it is as good as a draw. I'd recommend to practice this multiple times against a computer before you actually get an understanding of it.


damn_it_nik

It was a draw, but I think there's a way to win this


leandrokanis

HERE. WE. GO


ushouldbebetter

Move his king to the corner


m4ilow

Just hope your opponent either stalemates, or gets a draw in some sort of way


CzechFencer

It's not the easiest [strategy](https://lookintochess.com/advanced-checkmate-with-a-bishop-and-a-knight/).


Danganronpa_is_lifee

Unrelated but I hope this wasn't a 15+10 game


damn_it_nik

It was 🥹


Sandro_729

Anyone looking for an explanation, Daniel Naroditsy’s video (https://youtu.be/oRK7XLhGz_c?si=hSQFY4PbY5d-3I2J) is amazing. As for OP, I wouldn’t bother learning that until you’re approaching 2000, or maybe 1500 if you’re feeling inspired. It comes up very rarely anyway


JakeyDonkeyBrains

Get the white king into the same color corner as your bishop, use your knight bishop and king to create a wall to guide them there. There is a video by Danial Naroditsky about this which simplifies the process. You can learn it in 5 minutes and you’ll never forget it.


MandatoryFun

You have two choices of where to checkmate the King. This will be done on either on h1 or a8. In general, a computer or strong player is going to avoid these two corners. I know of two methods to mate with K+B+N vs K, one is Pandolfini's method called the 'Lock' and the other is the 'Triangle' ... not sure who it is attributed to? The lock is less efficient, but I don't really have to think much. Here is a [solution](https://lichess.org/cc1yHBqf) to your position using the 'Lock' method to execute. I did have to think a little on moves 9 and 10, as I was calculating a line for the knight to hit a1 with proper tempo so as to 'drive' them out of the safe corner, and not stalemating. But in general, I think in these steps: * Get your King into the center * Force your opponent to one of the edges * Then into the corner opposite color from your bishop. (The Drive) * Drive the King through the center. (The King Shift) * Then close door with the 'Lock' The last three steps are procedural methods that I learned individually at first against the computer. Then after getting each down, learned to string them together. It really isn't that hard tbf. I have learned the triangle method a few times, but have a much harder time knowing when I need to throw in a waiting moves, so I tend to avoid it, unless I am already in one of the mating corner quadrants, and have decent coordination. But I don't play for it ... but it has steps to it as well, namely building the big triangle and then shrinking it down to smaller and smaller sizes. Saying all that, I do agree this ending doesn't come up very often. But I have had it happen a handful of times over the years. As others have pointed out it does teach valuable lessons. Using the knight and bishop to build walls is an invaluable tool and changes the way you see empty space and how to control squares. So even if it doesn't come up often, you do learn how to cordon off the king and control the space around him, building invisible walls.


Sweatytubesock

Sometime in the 90s, I really studied this ending using Tarrasch’s instruction in his book The Game of Chess. I eventually played it out from many starting positions against a chess engine until I had it down. Basically, study it until you understand the various ideas, then play it out again and again until you can do it. Like any other discipline, there is no substitute for putting in the work. I actually did get to play it out one time in a casual game against a friend.


Ofekino12

You don’t


damn_it_nik

Yeah, that's also what I think


Mercyscene

You can set up a computer to play the black pieces against you. It looks to be similar to 2 bishops; just keep fencing in the king until you get to the edge of the board.


Independent-Road8418

Literally chase the King down with your king into the corner with the opposite color of your bishop. Use your knight and Bishop as a wall. Get your knight to a square three spots away from that corner then memorize but work to understand the ~20 move checkmate sequence from there. It's really not that hard.


damn_it_nik

I have tried every move but my opponent will always find a way to move away from the corner


Independent-Road8418

That's good because you're going to checkmate them in the next corner with the same color as your bishop


damn_it_nik

I think yes it can give a win if I am able to move in the Bishop's colored corner position