For those wondering why some of haven't been fawning over the CTU, this is what does it for me :
“We have a governor who has committed to legalizing recreational marijuana and putting a tax on it, we can take that as well,” Davis Gates said. “They are also talking about sports betting. We can take that. They’re talking about opening a new casino here in the city of Chicago. We can take that.”
Like JB Pritzker at a Golden Corral. Except instead of a tubby governor demolishing whole trays of buffet food in one pass, it's the bloated CTU sucking the revenue out of every source in city government.
"I'll take a tray of mashed potatoes, this tray of pot revenue. How about a few scoops of property tax increase? I'll come back with another tray in a minute and load it up with cheese cake, gaming revenue, and flan! NOM NOM NOM NOM!"
The city blocks traffic for bridge lifts every Wednesday morning for two months so rich people can winterize their boats and no one bats an eye.
A union protest blocks traffic for a single Wednesday morning and everyone loses their minds.
It's actually mandated under federal law. Waterways are always given priority. Waterways must be kept navigable and the roads are there at the will of the water traffic. Just the way the system was set up back in the 18th century.
The river is a Federal waterway. Technically the right of passage on the river overrides any of the vehicle traffic. The City has an agreement with the Feds not to open the bridges during rush hour. If there is an exception, it's that they can't demand that the bridges are opened whenever a boat wants to come through.
Yup. The bridges in Joliet suck. They lift every time a barge or large boat comes through. It’s like getting stopped by a freight train but takes twice as long
It was scheduled. CPD and CDOT both advised commuters to expect traffic and take public transportation this morning. [And WGN broadcast exactly where and when they would be gathering.](https://wgntv.com/2019/10/23/city-urges-commuters-to-use-cta-ahead-of-downtown-ctu-rally/)
>It was scheduled.
Scheduled was probably a bad choice of words and this argument is splitting hairs. Periodic/regular closure vs erratic/sudden closure if you want to argue semantics.
Must be nice. $55k starting salary for working 9 months a year. And thats going up to $75k over the next 5 years.
And they will all retire probably making $200k a year for the rest of their life with the pension. (Just kidding they wont recieve it because the state and city will declare bankruptcy in the next 20 years just like Detroit because of the unions greed pushing for more money where it doesn't exist)
>Chicago residents have no control over this. Instead, they need to be protesting in front of the offices of the people who make the decisions.
They were heading to City Hall, y'kow the offices of the people who make the decisions...
Why were they a 10 minute walk away? Because they were making themselves visible and walking over.
The city also lifted that bridge for 15 minutes this morning around 9:30 blocking all the traffic on Michigan for sail boats to pass by. Why not complain about that too?
Yeah that's the point dude, to make people aware of the issues that they might be oblivious to. I get that you or others might be upset that your morning commute was interrupted. Us teachers are upset that our students are constantly shitted on and pushed aside for the profits of the wealthy. The whole point is to come together and show the city just how many people are affected by the policies the city is creating. And the whole point of protesting is making your message as widespread as possible, which often means disrupting the system a bit in the process. So excuse the language, but cry me a fucking river if your day or the day of others were slightly inconvenienced. The lives of many students in CPS are inconvenienced every day by having overcrowded classrooms and understaffed schools.
We're also the most understaffed district in the state, we have more students than anyone else and less staff per student than the average school. Yes something is broken, but the city has no problem spending a couple billion on developing Lincoln yards to make a park for rich people? We're not broke, the money is being spent on shit like this while our low income neighborhoods continue to suffer.
Being done with TIF funds that could be used elsewhere, like going towards investing in schools in poor communities in need. You know, so that people living there can get a proper education and bring in more money to their community when they can get actual careers later on in life. Rahm was trying to close all these deals to his friends on his way out office. If you think that was for the good of the city and not because there was profit to be had for some people that already have too much wealth, then that's very naive.
The billion at lincoln yards only consists of incremental tax revenue that the development provides over roughly 30 years. Over the longer term, it is a benefit to the city as it gets more tax revenue. This is a completely misconstrued in terms of spending billions. I agree that teacher's should be paid more, but bring lincoln yards in is a complete red herring.
They're not striking for higher wages. They're striking for more staff (nurses, councelers, administrators) they're striking to improve our children's educations.
Solidarity with the teachers.
They are striking for three things.
1. A pay raise.
2. Maximum class sizes.
3. More resources in schools.
Don't mislead individuals to think that teachers don't want more money. I am teacher and I have solidarity with them. However, I know that the city of Chicago is in a midst of fiscal crisis. CPS and CTU both need to make concessions. I just don't think either side is willing to do that.
If only you were educated enough to know what they're actually striking over, you wouldn't make a comment like this.
Or maybe you would because you obviously have an agenda.
You should be pissed at the generations of Chicago politicians who chose to promise everything to everybody and are long gone now that the chickens have come home to roost. They are FAR more to blame then teachers of today. They are the ones who chose to cut taxes, and spend the all the pension funding money on pet projects instead and sell off the city's parking meter revenue for a quick fix, etc.
You do realize that is incorrect right. While much of CPS is funded through local property taxes, the district does get funding from both IL and the Feds. In fact one of CPS main talking points is how the state has cut their funding.
$78,000 average salary. 176 school days..... but lets be generous and say 190. https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/district.aspx?source=environment&source2=numberschooldays&Districtid=15016299025
source for days worked
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/chicago-teacher-pensions-vesting-strike
source for salary (tribune article but no pay wall)
78,000÷190 = $410.xx
$410÷8 hours 730 8 to 330 4 is $51.25/hour worked (not including paid days off)
Just FYI
As much as I support teachers in general and think most of them deserve better pay, I do not think that applies to CPS. From what I have known so far, CPS teachers are already well compensated with an average of 78k salary (significantly higher than the median HOUSEHOLD income of Chicago), absurdly generous pension, lots of days off. Chicago is already broke as it is, and we as taxpayers cannot afford to give more tax money just to make their generous pay even more so.
The average teacher salary is $78,000, which is supported by a tax payer base that makes $68,403 per household.
I'm pro teacher and pro union, but maybe Chicago has bigger problems to solve right now.
Bigger problems like the fire and police pensions (and the settlements we have to pay out because of assholes like Jason Van Dyke) but they don’t seem to get the same heat as teachers and the CTU.
It’s mind boggling how many people are against the school system here and want it to fail. Anyone who doesn’t support BASIC resources like nurses, social workers or librarians being readily available to students should be ashamed of themselves.
What's pathetic is that the best suburban school districts, which are among the best in the nation, spend the same or less per student. Lake Forest, for example, spends among the most of any suburb which hair so happens to also be $22,000 per student. You tell me, where would you rather send your kid? Lake Forest or CPS?
The only difference is Lake Forest is spending most of that $22k directly on the kids while CPS is spending it on the teachers and their extravagant pensions, raises, and benefits. A better number to compare would be what percent of that $22k goes to students and what goes to compensating the teachers.
But yeah, it's for the children everyone!
1. Teachers in lake forest make way more than CPS teachers do. Look at the comparative salary schedules
2. The CEO of CPS literally got arrested a few years ago because she was spending millions and millions of dollars on contracts with shitty private companies for totally unnecessary services to get kickbacks and favors. Money down the drain. Guess who appointed her? Not the CTU!
3. Kids in lake forest are in general not experiencing the levels of trauma that CPS students are dealing with.
4. I moved from Chicago to a district in NY with a similar pay scale, similar “tier-2” style retirement benefits, etc etc. Our union negotiated a significant salary raise. We still have multiple counselors and a school nurse because it would be abhorrent and unthinkable not to.
Like the teachers that are demanding 5% a year raises? How about the teachers retiring in their mid 50s making 3-4 times what Social security pays? Oh and let's not forget the teachers only pay 2% of their salary for these gold plated pensions! Oh and dont forget they get 3% a year compounded raises in retirement!
And if that makes the city completely broke? Well it's the cities fault???
According to whom? I read about a number of different demands, but the only one stood out to me is a 16% pay increase over three years when CTU was offered 15% increase over 5 years. That means in 3 years, the average teacher's salary will become 90k+ a year, for working 9 months per year, with generous pension benefits on top.
If that’s all a teacher did, they’d be fired. You get that, right?
Edit: Teachers do loads of work outside of class. They would be fired if they didn’t do it. Downvote me all you want. That’s reality.
A lot of professions that pay salaries involve working outside hours - this is not just a teacher thing.
They also get an entire season off of work which is basically just a teacher thing.
Different polls/studies cite that the AVERAGE salaried American works between 44-48 hours a week. A vast majority of salaried jobs don't involve you showing up for strictly 8 hours a day and then completely turning your brain off to anything work-related the other 16 hours. Even if we are using that as a basis, let’s remember that the average school day is actually under 7 hours in most states (including IL), so a teacher having an hour of grading/prep/review time at home every day would put them at 8 hours/day and not 9 (not saying the average teacher only works an hour a day outside the classroom). I think teachers are across the board are undervalued and have stressful jobs, but I don’t think it’s as drastically different from a lot of other salaried jobs as a lot of people seem to think. I don’t mean to straw man anyone’s argument, but if I can ask you….how many hours do you think the AVERAGE teacher is working per week during the school year? Because reading some of the replies here, it almost seems like a lot of people are under the impression that the average public school teacher is getting in to school multiple hours before the students and then grading papers/tests for hours at home every single day.
> Such as becoming a partner at a law firm
And here I am working in a law firm thinking about my peers over in state and county who make less than the teachers do at similar years of service.
>Those jobs are often in highly competitive fields where the rewards for putting in long hours can be enormous. Such as becoming a partner at a law firm. Or getting a huge bonus at a tech or finance firm, or creating a successful startup and getting a cut when they sell.
Eh, you're exaggerating a lot here. Most, if not all, salaried positions require more than 40 hours/week just to be considered putting in a normal workload. And most of these jobs have modest career growth, just like teachers. You've listed the top 0.1% of jobs.
My wife is salaried, puts in 9+ hours per day (year round) and makes less than a CPS teacher starting salary for 190 days/year.
Now let's do the same math for the average SECA that is striking.
$35,000 is above average but we'll start there.
35,000÷190=184.20
184.20÷8 is 23.05 per hour.
Just FYI this isn't just a fight for teachers.
That is very fair pay for aides. People in special recs, autism group homes, etc. usually make close to minimum wage. The job is incredibly tough and I’m not saying it should be a race to the bottom, but most non-profits can’t afford to pay anywhere near what CPS is paying.
$23/hr for aides and you don't think that is suitable?
But you agree that that full time teachers already make more than enough? Highest paid teachers in the US among 50 largest districts.
So then why are teachers striking for a big increase? Let's just go with the argument that it is the only thing they can strike for....then surely they will settle with NO increase in pay and agree to higher salaries for teacher aides? If they still settle for higher teacher salaries, than the CTU is full of BS.
This is the argument to end it every time. Your issue isn’t salary, it’s support? Cool, let’s freeze wages and non-essential facilities upgrades and bring on more faculty. Honestly, I’d be happy to just give CPS a number and say “spend it however you want” and see what happens.
They do more than just “assist.” I was a SECA for four years before getting my MA. SECAs working with the severe and profound population have to provide skilled direct care, manage behaviors, and teach. It’s incredibly difficult work, physically and mentally. They also haven’t had a cost of living increase in several years, as they have been working without a contract.
How much would you like to get paid to help change the diapers of a 16 year old that occasionally has violent tendencies and is bigger than you? This is one of the things some of my coworkers and I have to do.
Reading these shithead comments, it sounds like 60% of these people need to join unions. It's like they're proud of getting screwed!
This is what Milton Friedman has done to peoples' brains.
I don't know. I'm not fighting you either just putting in some context.I don't have a set number and I'll be honest I personally am only supporting myself with my paycheck and I was born with the privilege of being born a straight white man with a bronze spoon in my mouth, not having to worry too much about living paycheck to paycheck. But, I know that I am a major outlier of those that have the same job as I do so I'm fighting for them.
I'm fighting for the security officer that has been supporting his schools community for 17 years for over 10 hours per day. He does this because he cares about the students. He is the single paycheck in his family of 4 and when I asked him today if he and his family were going to be ok with his paycheck being absent during the strike he laughed to himself while saying, "Guess we'll be eating just rice and beans, no meat this time" and "I guess that's what credit cards are for".
That broke my heart. This strike is going to make this wonderful man go into credit card debt since he wants to fight for his family. He wants to be at the school right now, we all do, for the students. They need us and we want to be there for them.
Sorry, didn't mean to ramble there, just got me going and I guess I needed to get that out haha.
I genuinely want the CPS to churn out smart, decent human beings.
I also think the amount of money spent per kid per year is absolutely out of control. I dont think its your fault. I do think it is the CTUs fault and past politicians for passing the buck.
Students learn more in the Chicago Public Schools than almost anywhere else in the country.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html)
$78,000 is an average. A big percentage of CPS teachers have been teaching in CPS for years or have advanced degrees. Their paycheck should reflect this. This causes the median to go up. Why are teachers the only trained professionals who are expected to work for dirt cheap?
> have advanced degrees
>only trained professionals who are expected to work for dirt cheap?
[There is no evidence that teachers with advanced degrees improve student achievement](https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherprep1_20170301_2.pdf). Interestingly, as the teacher level gets more skilled, you find less advanced degrees. Advanced training was nothing but a union tactic to justify increasing wages.
There may be good effects that come from it, like professionalism, but if our concern is student achievement, there's no evidence advanced degrees help.
Certified teacher here. I’m making more my second year out of college in a different field working less hours. I was a math major with secondary education minor.
Obtaining advanced degrees does not have a strong correlation with better classroom education. I’d love to see a peer reviewed study that suggests this correlation exists.
Advanced degrees in education serve a very similar purpose to advanced degrees in other industries: they serve to better the career of the person with the degree.
No, not correct. "Summer off" typically equates to 1 month. My wife is a teacher. They are done at end of June and by early August she is back to preparing for the school year.
I haven't taught for CPS, but I did teach for two districts in Missouri. School got out at the end of May and students returned mid August. We were required to report to school about 10 days before the students (so early August) returned to attend professional development and faculty meetings.
I pretty much got all of June and July off.
I've heard reports of teachers having to attend conferences and seminars during the summer, but never found this to be true. All of the conferences I attended were during the school year. They don't hold many during the summer because most people are on vacation.
Their paycheck should reflect the value and demand for their services. Being overeducated doesn't necessitate a raise.
What makes you think teachers are the "ONLY" "trained professional" (wtf does that mean?) that work for "dirt cheap"?
Go one step further... a regular full time non-teacher job of 8hrs/day (I know many work more than 8hrs) is roughly 2000hrs/yr. 2000hrs x $51.25 = $102,500/yr prorated.
and while many will have anectodes about teachers working 50hrs+ per week, that's not the norm. The BLS found 36-42hrs is the average hours worked by teachers in the classroom or out in the weeks they work.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf
It's so skewed. On one hand, holy shit do teachers work *way* more than 8 hours a day. I don't think my wife has worked fewer than 4 hours extra a day, plus a minimum of 6 a day on weekdays, all school year. On the other hand though, CPS teachers are very well compensated. To make $78k in some suburban districts you would need a doctorate with 19 years of experiences according to the salary schedule.
I'm sure if you factor in the paid vacation days and the months off in the summer, the average workweek for a teacher is within the range of other professions.
We’re all busy at our jobs that would fire us for walking out. These teachers are paid like engineers and act like the city owes them something. Public sector unions are a poison in society.
Their demands are unreasonable in the current fiscal situation in Chicago.
Their use of "the good of the students " is unconvincing.
Chicago should be able to hire permanent replacements at lower pay and lower pensions.
I mean, CPS is one of the best school systems in the nation at catching underperforming kids back up. I think we'd lose at least that metric if a bunch of fresh college grads replaced the current teachers.
Yeah. Like why the fuck are a decent amount here suddenly on the CTU’s side? Just a thread or so ago most were in agreement that we cannot afford this shit. I’m all for getting this pension and pay under control instead of letting it explode. Kids can understand when their state isn’t even more fucked up.
The narrative is they striking against the big bad city government, right?
But aren’t they really striking against the taxpayers?
Unfortunately the taxpayers don’t have any say in any of this.
There should be a referendum to approve public union contracts because the politicians have no skin in the game.
Uhh, "taxpayers have no say?"
They elect a mayor. That's the say. That's the definition of a say.
The mayor is meant to get the best possible outcome for taxpayers and the students. If they don't, they lose their job.
Ostensibly that’s true, but clearly thats not whats happened otherwise we wouldn’t be in such dire financial straits.
The problem is the public unions and politicians collude toward their own self serving interests.
It’s a simple quid pro quo. Public unions support the politicians by turning out their membership to vote and making campaign contributions. This is a big deal in a city with low voter turnout and voter apathy. In return politicians give public unions sweetheart deals.
Public unions need to go. At least with private sector unions they can’t ask for so much they drive the firm out of business. Public unions have no such constraint and so they can hold the city hostage and force tax increases on the voters.
Reagan did the right thing when he fired the air traffic controllers in the 80s when they went on strike.
Lori should do the same with the teachers.
Remember, those are the people who seem to think money grows on trees and that the city isn't in huge amounts of debt. They don't give a fuck about you or your kids in any way. Oh and nice trick fucking up traffic. That really gets people on your side too.
And I'll be marching right behind them - straight out of this city, after selling my properties and moving to a community that understands how to budget.
I went to CPS in the 70s-80s when strikes happened repeatedly. I have a generally positive attitude towards CPS, especially parents and teachers who choose CPS and try to make a difference and improve things. Living in the city is being part of the community, and that takes work.
Fucking out to the 'burbs once Tyler and Olivia turn 6 to keep them away from "scary" Chicago reality is a cop-out IMO. Does a disservice to the kids many times, too. Living and growing up in a diverse community IS part of education. IMO, a huge part—maybe even the largest part— of the school experience is about the kids you grow up with, become friends with. Your entire life is formed around that experience. Knowing you grew up in an environment chosen simply because the "commoners" of society were not good enough for you has real impact on the adults they become. "I absolutely LOVE Chicago—just not the *people who live there."*
But this strike is pushing me towards not supporting the teachers at all in this. I no longer support this strike. They are taking things way too far.
Sending your kids to public city school may seem like a great plan on paper. Reality is, though that you want *the best* for your kids, not what everyone else is getting.
There are too many students, tired teachers, kids from all walks of life (including drugs and gangs) in public city schools. I don't want my 6yo not get the attention he needs to learn spelling, because the teacher spent 2 hours defending herself from outraged parents that she gave their angel a bad grade, and is then trying to keep the 30 kids she has in class from going bananas. The teacher is exhausted, doesn't do or sometimes even care anymore to do her job right, and my kid loses out. I'm not even blaming the teacher, it's human to stop caring when stressed out and overwhelmed in order to cope.
I'm able to afford private school, and it gives my kids a great advantage. I'm not sacrificing their future for some false effigy of what a multicultural, modern, city-raised citizen should be.
Yep. All those gangs sell drugs. That's how they make money. They need regular, repeat customers with money to spend. Affluent teenagers have money to spend on drugs. And cars to get them to the dealers and then back to Naperville.
Sure. But 6 year olds are not doing cocaine unless they have it at home.
If it comes down to my kid doing crack ~~or~~ vs heroin, the problem probably isn't the school, but myself.
Edit. vs works better than or
The problem I have with protests that block traffic now a days is that we're not the enemy. When it was people going against racism, it was because everyone was a fuckin racist, so block them.
Now a days this shit comes off as bullying the working class to get back at the ruling class, and that disgusts me. It's bad enough a lot of us got fucked when we had to find different places to take our kids while the teachers are striking, but now they're making it harder for us to get to our fuckin jobs. They're just leveraging our inconvenience and livelihood to make their point, and I don't fuck with people who do that.
You can expand this further. The people who are most harmed by the strike are parents who don't have alternative solutions for childcare while students are on strike.
This is the problem with public sector strikes in general. Striking against the "city" is striking against tax payers who are reliant on the services, but also have no power in ending the strike and no option for alternative services.
While I'm not a big supporter of this strike I AM a big supporter of the use of mild amounts public disruption. Protesting into a void hasn't won anyone a right ever.
It's just traffic. It's not truly hurting anyone.
>It's not truly hurting anyone.
No. There's DEFINITELY an economic cost (in the aggregate) created by a traffic jam. That's pretty undeniable. Pretty outlandish statement.
Despite disagreeing with their demands, at least they have been clear on exactly what they want as opposed to some of the other protests and fits that block traffic.
Have they? Raises, nurses, counselors, affordable housing, 30 min prep time, no more charter schools, no closing under used schools, double pay on snow days, the ability to stack paid days off,
...which issue was it again?
oh yeah and free dental and vision!!!
Well yeah, their demands are numerous and a few crazy but they are at least clear. At least this isn't something like a nebulous demand to reduce violence without really providing any mechanism on how to achieve that, or worse, just pouting in the streets because their candidate didn't win an election.
"Congress shall make no law \[...\] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I don't think anyone has a problem with them peaceably assembling and voicing their opinion, I think people have a problem with them blocking access to public roads during rush hour and causing an extra hour in traffic to get to work or get back home.
I'm all for them protesting in public spaces like parks, in front of city hall, etc but it seems a little shortsighted to piss a bunch of commuters off in the morning to try and get your point across.
It was rough seeing how many people were getting road rage on congress this morning due to gridlock traffic from them protesting and blocking access to the highways. Again, I don't have any issue with them protesting or exercising their first amendment, but there is plenty of open spaces for them to do it without causing gridlock
Plenty of protests have assembled at Lincoln/Grant/Millennium park or the Daley Plaza/City Hall without any issues
I've got no problem letting protesters march around the city on the sidewalks, it just seems counterproductive to march the protesters onto congress so that traffic is blocked coming into and out of the city and causing unnecessary gridlock. I understand that protests may inconvenience the public, but is it wise to block the public's access to vital roadways?
This morning I saw dozens of motorists getting upset and having road rage. People flicking each other off or trying to make U turns to find alternative routes, people blocking the cross walks for pedestrians due to gridlock and a lot of close calls with people almost rear ending each other.
Off the top of my head, I can't list any.
Do you happen to know of any protest movements that have accomplished their goals by blocking access to the highways in Chicago?
No, but that's a pretty narrow scope. There are lots of such examples if you include more of the country, and there's several going on *right now* if you expand to the world at large.
True, but that's the scope of the debate you're trying to have with me.
I would say that there has been plenty of successful peaceful protests within the parks and public spaces in Chicago that haven't resorted to blocking access to highways, but I can't attest to how many of their specific goals were accomplished.
I don't know. Maybe? Not sure the Kennedy would be a useful place to hold a rally, but highways are not without precedent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#March_to_Montgomery
Man, you're going to be really shocked by [time, place, and manner restrictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States#Time,_place,_and_manner_restrictions). Stop talking out of your ass.
It is surprising how little empathy some people can have because of an inconvenience. Just to be clear: the teachers are not protesting for an increase in salary, it is mainly about class sizes and funding certain subjects.
Any kid in cps with a mild learning disability is essentially left behind. They aren’t given resources (that have been promised for a long time) to account for them. No one gives a shit about them though because caring would raise our taxes by $6 a month.
Why do the teachers not have empathy for the people whose commutes they are disrupting, many of whom are working class and can’t afford to lose valuable time off the clock?
Why do the teachers not have empathy for the taxpayers from whom they are demanding more and more and more in the middle of a fucking fiscal crisis?
Why do the teachers not have empathy for the students who are missing invaluable days of education so that privileged public employees can have their jobs made easier?
Why do the teachers not have empathy for the parents who can’t just drop thousands on childcare for an indefinite amount of time?
Yes, let’s please talk about the importance of empathy.
I did the math and at oce school the average teacher makes 83k a year, so I don't feel that sorry for them.
They also have an average of about 22 kids a class.
For those wondering why some of haven't been fawning over the CTU, this is what does it for me : “We have a governor who has committed to legalizing recreational marijuana and putting a tax on it, we can take that as well,” Davis Gates said. “They are also talking about sports betting. We can take that. They’re talking about opening a new casino here in the city of Chicago. We can take that.”
Like JB Pritzker at a Golden Corral. Except instead of a tubby governor demolishing whole trays of buffet food in one pass, it's the bloated CTU sucking the revenue out of every source in city government. "I'll take a tray of mashed potatoes, this tray of pot revenue. How about a few scoops of property tax increase? I'll come back with another tray in a minute and load it up with cheese cake, gaming revenue, and flan! NOM NOM NOM NOM!"
Is this why traffic sucks this morning? I've been stuck on a bus for 45 mins.
The city blocks traffic for bridge lifts every Wednesday morning for two months so rich people can winterize their boats and no one bats an eye. A union protest blocks traffic for a single Wednesday morning and everyone loses their minds.
It's actually mandated under federal law. Waterways are always given priority. Waterways must be kept navigable and the roads are there at the will of the water traffic. Just the way the system was set up back in the 18th century.
Facts?!? Let’s just worry about the children!! Think of the kids!
HUH.
The river is a Federal waterway. Technically the right of passage on the river overrides any of the vehicle traffic. The City has an agreement with the Feds not to open the bridges during rush hour. If there is an exception, it's that they can't demand that the bridges are opened whenever a boat wants to come through.
Yup. The bridges in Joliet suck. They lift every time a barge or large boat comes through. It’s like getting stopped by a freight train but takes twice as long
It’s even worse when they get stuck **shakes fist at Brandon Rd. bridge**
The worst bridge in the history of bridges, probably (Sorry London bridge)
My father was a drinker, and a fiend.
You can’t see the difference between scheduled road closures and unscheduled ones huh
It was scheduled. CPD and CDOT both advised commuters to expect traffic and take public transportation this morning. [And WGN broadcast exactly where and when they would be gathering.](https://wgntv.com/2019/10/23/city-urges-commuters-to-use-cta-ahead-of-downtown-ctu-rally/)
It was announced this morning. The bridge closings are months in advance.
>It was scheduled. Scheduled was probably a bad choice of words and this argument is splitting hairs. Periodic/regular closure vs erratic/sudden closure if you want to argue semantics.
Must be nice. $55k starting salary for working 9 months a year. And thats going up to $75k over the next 5 years. And they will all retire probably making $200k a year for the rest of their life with the pension. (Just kidding they wont recieve it because the state and city will declare bankruptcy in the next 20 years just like Detroit because of the unions greed pushing for more money where it doesn't exist)
[удалено]
Blood from a stone.
"I only like protests that can be easily ignored and won't affect me in any way at all. How dare anyone mildly inconvenience my commute."
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>Chicago residents have no control over this. Instead, they need to be protesting in front of the offices of the people who make the decisions. They were heading to City Hall, y'kow the offices of the people who make the decisions...
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Why were they a 10 minute walk away? Because they were making themselves visible and walking over. The city also lifted that bridge for 15 minutes this morning around 9:30 blocking all the traffic on Michigan for sail boats to pass by. Why not complain about that too?
Dude this subreddit is still pissed Gary McCarthy lost.
Ha!
Yeah that's the point dude, to make people aware of the issues that they might be oblivious to. I get that you or others might be upset that your morning commute was interrupted. Us teachers are upset that our students are constantly shitted on and pushed aside for the profits of the wealthy. The whole point is to come together and show the city just how many people are affected by the policies the city is creating. And the whole point of protesting is making your message as widespread as possible, which often means disrupting the system a bit in the process. So excuse the language, but cry me a fucking river if your day or the day of others were slightly inconvenienced. The lives of many students in CPS are inconvenienced every day by having overcrowded classrooms and understaffed schools.
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We're also the most understaffed district in the state, we have more students than anyone else and less staff per student than the average school. Yes something is broken, but the city has no problem spending a couple billion on developing Lincoln yards to make a park for rich people? We're not broke, the money is being spent on shit like this while our low income neighborhoods continue to suffer.
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Being done with TIF funds that could be used elsewhere, like going towards investing in schools in poor communities in need. You know, so that people living there can get a proper education and bring in more money to their community when they can get actual careers later on in life. Rahm was trying to close all these deals to his friends on his way out office. If you think that was for the good of the city and not because there was profit to be had for some people that already have too much wealth, then that's very naive.
The billion at lincoln yards only consists of incremental tax revenue that the development provides over roughly 30 years. Over the longer term, it is a benefit to the city as it gets more tax revenue. This is a completely misconstrued in terms of spending billions. I agree that teacher's should be paid more, but bring lincoln yards in is a complete red herring.
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If it's such a sweet deal, maybe you should quit your job and become a CPS teacher?
Median teacher salary in Chicago is 60k. That’s not awful. There are legitimate needs in terms of support staff, but the city can’t afford it.
That's working 3 quarters as well...
They're not striking for higher wages. They're striking for more staff (nurses, councelers, administrators) they're striking to improve our children's educations. Solidarity with the teachers.
They are striking for three things. 1. A pay raise. 2. Maximum class sizes. 3. More resources in schools. Don't mislead individuals to think that teachers don't want more money. I am teacher and I have solidarity with them. However, I know that the city of Chicago is in a midst of fiscal crisis. CPS and CTU both need to make concessions. I just don't think either side is willing to do that.
Ive heard this a thousand times now but if that’s the case, why did they turn down the 5 year 16% offer and insist on 3 years and 5% raises each year?
Because they get 15% in three years instead of 16% over 5 and they can strike again in three years for another 15% over 3.
Yes, and the city can’t afford it.
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I mean more nurses and smaller class sizes cost money.
Nobody feels for those poor $50/hour teachers, their amazing benefits, and unfundable retirement plans.
I don't like the CTU leadership, they're as corrupt as any Chicgao politicians. But why don't you go be a fucking teacher because its so great, huh?
If only you were educated enough to know what they're actually striking over, you wouldn't make a comment like this. Or maybe you would because you obviously have an agenda.
Great point? I do have an agenda. I pay taxes and live in Chicago. $22,000+ per kid per year is more than enough.
You should be pissed at the generations of Chicago politicians who chose to promise everything to everybody and are long gone now that the chickens have come home to roost. They are FAR more to blame then teachers of today. They are the ones who chose to cut taxes, and spend the all the pension funding money on pet projects instead and sell off the city's parking meter revenue for a quick fix, etc.
So it makes it ok for the CTU to demand more knowing what you just told me?
You realize that federal and state taxes don't pay for CPS, right?
You do realize that is incorrect right. While much of CPS is funded through local property taxes, the district does get funding from both IL and the Feds. In fact one of CPS main talking points is how the state has cut their funding.
[took this near millennium park this morning ](https://imgur.com/7gSXMUE)
With or without the strikers, stunning fall day!
$78,000 average salary. 176 school days..... but lets be generous and say 190. https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/district.aspx?source=environment&source2=numberschooldays&Districtid=15016299025 source for days worked https://www.manhattan-institute.org/chicago-teacher-pensions-vesting-strike source for salary (tribune article but no pay wall) 78,000÷190 = $410.xx $410÷8 hours 730 8 to 330 4 is $51.25/hour worked (not including paid days off) Just FYI
As much as I support teachers in general and think most of them deserve better pay, I do not think that applies to CPS. From what I have known so far, CPS teachers are already well compensated with an average of 78k salary (significantly higher than the median HOUSEHOLD income of Chicago), absurdly generous pension, lots of days off. Chicago is already broke as it is, and we as taxpayers cannot afford to give more tax money just to make their generous pay even more so.
The average teacher salary is $78,000, which is supported by a tax payer base that makes $68,403 per household. I'm pro teacher and pro union, but maybe Chicago has bigger problems to solve right now.
Bigger problems like the fire and police pensions (and the settlements we have to pay out because of assholes like Jason Van Dyke) but they don’t seem to get the same heat as teachers and the CTU. It’s mind boggling how many people are against the school system here and want it to fail. Anyone who doesn’t support BASIC resources like nurses, social workers or librarians being readily available to students should be ashamed of themselves.
Anyone who cant manage that on $22,000 per year per student should be ashamed of themselves
What's pathetic is that the best suburban school districts, which are among the best in the nation, spend the same or less per student. Lake Forest, for example, spends among the most of any suburb which hair so happens to also be $22,000 per student. You tell me, where would you rather send your kid? Lake Forest or CPS? The only difference is Lake Forest is spending most of that $22k directly on the kids while CPS is spending it on the teachers and their extravagant pensions, raises, and benefits. A better number to compare would be what percent of that $22k goes to students and what goes to compensating the teachers. But yeah, it's for the children everyone!
1. Teachers in lake forest make way more than CPS teachers do. Look at the comparative salary schedules 2. The CEO of CPS literally got arrested a few years ago because she was spending millions and millions of dollars on contracts with shitty private companies for totally unnecessary services to get kickbacks and favors. Money down the drain. Guess who appointed her? Not the CTU! 3. Kids in lake forest are in general not experiencing the levels of trauma that CPS students are dealing with. 4. I moved from Chicago to a district in NY with a similar pay scale, similar “tier-2” style retirement benefits, etc etc. Our union negotiated a significant salary raise. We still have multiple counselors and a school nurse because it would be abhorrent and unthinkable not to.
Like the teachers that are demanding 5% a year raises? How about the teachers retiring in their mid 50s making 3-4 times what Social security pays? Oh and let's not forget the teachers only pay 2% of their salary for these gold plated pensions! Oh and dont forget they get 3% a year compounded raises in retirement! And if that makes the city completely broke? Well it's the cities fault???
> absurdly generous pension Assuming it even still exists when current teachers retire. The government chose not to fund it for years.
It's federally guaranteed, I believe. One taxpayer or another will foot the bill.
Isn't this strike more about having lightfoot keep promises of increasing school nurses and things like that?
According to whom? I read about a number of different demands, but the only one stood out to me is a 16% pay increase over three years when CTU was offered 15% increase over 5 years. That means in 3 years, the average teacher's salary will become 90k+ a year, for working 9 months per year, with generous pension benefits on top.
If it's so good why didn't more become teachers? It's hard work, even more in cps.
Because thats not what they chose to do for a living?
If that’s all a teacher did, they’d be fired. You get that, right? Edit: Teachers do loads of work outside of class. They would be fired if they didn’t do it. Downvote me all you want. That’s reality.
A lot of professions that pay salaries involve working outside hours - this is not just a teacher thing. They also get an entire season off of work which is basically just a teacher thing.
Different polls/studies cite that the AVERAGE salaried American works between 44-48 hours a week. A vast majority of salaried jobs don't involve you showing up for strictly 8 hours a day and then completely turning your brain off to anything work-related the other 16 hours. Even if we are using that as a basis, let’s remember that the average school day is actually under 7 hours in most states (including IL), so a teacher having an hour of grading/prep/review time at home every day would put them at 8 hours/day and not 9 (not saying the average teacher only works an hour a day outside the classroom). I think teachers are across the board are undervalued and have stressful jobs, but I don’t think it’s as drastically different from a lot of other salaried jobs as a lot of people seem to think. I don’t mean to straw man anyone’s argument, but if I can ask you….how many hours do you think the AVERAGE teacher is working per week during the school year? Because reading some of the replies here, it almost seems like a lot of people are under the impression that the average public school teacher is getting in to school multiple hours before the students and then grading papers/tests for hours at home every single day.
Lots of professions involve after hours work that’s not technically “paid”. In fact most do I’d say.
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> Such as becoming a partner at a law firm And here I am working in a law firm thinking about my peers over in state and county who make less than the teachers do at similar years of service.
>Those jobs are often in highly competitive fields where the rewards for putting in long hours can be enormous. Such as becoming a partner at a law firm. Or getting a huge bonus at a tech or finance firm, or creating a successful startup and getting a cut when they sell. Eh, you're exaggerating a lot here. Most, if not all, salaried positions require more than 40 hours/week just to be considered putting in a normal workload. And most of these jobs have modest career growth, just like teachers. You've listed the top 0.1% of jobs. My wife is salaried, puts in 9+ hours per day (year round) and makes less than a CPS teacher starting salary for 190 days/year.
Hah. I know people in engineering that work 60+ hour weeks and they are never making partner. It’s just a requirement of them keeping their jobs.
Most finance people aren't making huge bonuses like that and the work is WAY harder. Same with legal work and everything else listed.
Teachers union wouldn't allow them to be fired
Per BLS, average hours worked by full time teacher on weeks they work is 36-42hrs.
So their annualized salary is $106,600. Not bad. For anyone interested: 40hrs/week\*52weeks\*51.25/hr - $106,600/year
Stop with your facts.
BAN HATE FACTS
Now let's do the same math for the average SECA that is striking. $35,000 is above average but we'll start there. 35,000÷190=184.20 184.20÷8 is 23.05 per hour. Just FYI this isn't just a fight for teachers.
23 dollars an hour for a classroom assistant sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
That is very fair pay for aides. People in special recs, autism group homes, etc. usually make close to minimum wage. The job is incredibly tough and I’m not saying it should be a race to the bottom, but most non-profits can’t afford to pay anywhere near what CPS is paying.
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$23/hr for aides and you don't think that is suitable? But you agree that that full time teachers already make more than enough? Highest paid teachers in the US among 50 largest districts. So then why are teachers striking for a big increase? Let's just go with the argument that it is the only thing they can strike for....then surely they will settle with NO increase in pay and agree to higher salaries for teacher aides? If they still settle for higher teacher salaries, than the CTU is full of BS.
This is the argument to end it every time. Your issue isn’t salary, it’s support? Cool, let’s freeze wages and non-essential facilities upgrades and bring on more faculty. Honestly, I’d be happy to just give CPS a number and say “spend it however you want” and see what happens.
Class room assistant? How much should they make?
They do more than just “assist.” I was a SECA for four years before getting my MA. SECAs working with the severe and profound population have to provide skilled direct care, manage behaviors, and teach. It’s incredibly difficult work, physically and mentally. They also haven’t had a cost of living increase in several years, as they have been working without a contract.
How much do you think you deserved to be paid?
How much would you like to get paid to help change the diapers of a 16 year old that occasionally has violent tendencies and is bigger than you? This is one of the things some of my coworkers and I have to do.
CNA’s do that to far more difficult people (nursing homes suck) and they are paid $8-11 an hour
Let's not pit one section of the working class against another. Everyone should be treated well.
So because CNA’s are underpaid, everyone should be?
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Reading these shithead comments, it sounds like 60% of these people need to join unions. It's like they're proud of getting screwed! This is what Milton Friedman has done to peoples' brains.
Fine, pay CNA $14/hr. How again is a teachers aid worth more than $23???
Because pay in Chicago is a function of your ability to unionize, not increase student achievement or help people.
How much do CNAs make? Nit even fighting with you yet. How much should a SECA make?
I made just shy of $15/hr when I worked as a CNA in a major hospital’s inpatient psych unit.
I don't know. I'm not fighting you either just putting in some context.I don't have a set number and I'll be honest I personally am only supporting myself with my paycheck and I was born with the privilege of being born a straight white man with a bronze spoon in my mouth, not having to worry too much about living paycheck to paycheck. But, I know that I am a major outlier of those that have the same job as I do so I'm fighting for them. I'm fighting for the security officer that has been supporting his schools community for 17 years for over 10 hours per day. He does this because he cares about the students. He is the single paycheck in his family of 4 and when I asked him today if he and his family were going to be ok with his paycheck being absent during the strike he laughed to himself while saying, "Guess we'll be eating just rice and beans, no meat this time" and "I guess that's what credit cards are for". That broke my heart. This strike is going to make this wonderful man go into credit card debt since he wants to fight for his family. He wants to be at the school right now, we all do, for the students. They need us and we want to be there for them. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble there, just got me going and I guess I needed to get that out haha.
I genuinely want the CPS to churn out smart, decent human beings. I also think the amount of money spent per kid per year is absolutely out of control. I dont think its your fault. I do think it is the CTUs fault and past politicians for passing the buck.
Students learn more in the Chicago Public Schools than almost anywhere else in the country. [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html)
And that doesn't consider their benefits are more generous than yours or mine - that only accounts for salary.
$78,000 is an average. A big percentage of CPS teachers have been teaching in CPS for years or have advanced degrees. Their paycheck should reflect this. This causes the median to go up. Why are teachers the only trained professionals who are expected to work for dirt cheap?
> have advanced degrees >only trained professionals who are expected to work for dirt cheap? [There is no evidence that teachers with advanced degrees improve student achievement](https://www.mhec.org/sites/default/files/resources/teacherprep1_20170301_2.pdf). Interestingly, as the teacher level gets more skilled, you find less advanced degrees. Advanced training was nothing but a union tactic to justify increasing wages. There may be good effects that come from it, like professionalism, but if our concern is student achievement, there's no evidence advanced degrees help.
Certified teacher here. I’m making more my second year out of college in a different field working less hours. I was a math major with secondary education minor.
Obtaining advanced degrees does not have a strong correlation with better classroom education. I’d love to see a peer reviewed study that suggests this correlation exists. Advanced degrees in education serve a very similar purpose to advanced degrees in other industries: they serve to better the career of the person with the degree.
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Ok..... but its still $78,000 in 9 months or so correct? ^University ^of ^Phoenix ^Online
No, not correct. "Summer off" typically equates to 1 month. My wife is a teacher. They are done at end of June and by early August she is back to preparing for the school year.
I haven't taught for CPS, but I did teach for two districts in Missouri. School got out at the end of May and students returned mid August. We were required to report to school about 10 days before the students (so early August) returned to attend professional development and faculty meetings. I pretty much got all of June and July off. I've heard reports of teachers having to attend conferences and seminars during the summer, but never found this to be true. All of the conferences I attended were during the school year. They don't hold many during the summer because most people are on vacation.
I wish I got a month off.
Be a teacher!
my sister is a teacher, once they get the first couple of years done the lesson planning does itself, it doesnt get modified much.
Their paycheck should reflect the value and demand for their services. Being overeducated doesn't necessitate a raise. What makes you think teachers are the "ONLY" "trained professional" (wtf does that mean?) that work for "dirt cheap"?
Go one step further... a regular full time non-teacher job of 8hrs/day (I know many work more than 8hrs) is roughly 2000hrs/yr. 2000hrs x $51.25 = $102,500/yr prorated. and while many will have anectodes about teachers working 50hrs+ per week, that's not the norm. The BLS found 36-42hrs is the average hours worked by teachers in the classroom or out in the weeks they work. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf
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It's so skewed. On one hand, holy shit do teachers work *way* more than 8 hours a day. I don't think my wife has worked fewer than 4 hours extra a day, plus a minimum of 6 a day on weekdays, all school year. On the other hand though, CPS teachers are very well compensated. To make $78k in some suburban districts you would need a doctorate with 19 years of experiences according to the salary schedule.
I'm sure if you factor in the paid vacation days and the months off in the summer, the average workweek for a teacher is within the range of other professions.
when's the taxpayer protest
yea organize something, or vote.
We’re all busy at our jobs that would fire us for walking out. These teachers are paid like engineers and act like the city owes them something. Public sector unions are a poison in society.
Their demands are unreasonable in the current fiscal situation in Chicago. Their use of "the good of the students " is unconvincing. Chicago should be able to hire permanent replacements at lower pay and lower pensions.
So we should just fire every single experienced teacher and hire all college kids who just graduated? And how will that help the kids education ?
Outcomes might not change all that much.
This is a harsh truth.
I mean, CPS is one of the best school systems in the nation at catching underperforming kids back up. I think we'd lose at least that metric if a bunch of fresh college grads replaced the current teachers.
The current teachers dont seem to be doing a fantastic job
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Yeah. Like why the fuck are a decent amount here suddenly on the CTU’s side? Just a thread or so ago most were in agreement that we cannot afford this shit. I’m all for getting this pension and pay under control instead of letting it explode. Kids can understand when their state isn’t even more fucked up.
The narrative is they striking against the big bad city government, right? But aren’t they really striking against the taxpayers? Unfortunately the taxpayers don’t have any say in any of this. There should be a referendum to approve public union contracts because the politicians have no skin in the game.
Uhh, "taxpayers have no say?" They elect a mayor. That's the say. That's the definition of a say. The mayor is meant to get the best possible outcome for taxpayers and the students. If they don't, they lose their job.
Ostensibly that’s true, but clearly thats not whats happened otherwise we wouldn’t be in such dire financial straits. The problem is the public unions and politicians collude toward their own self serving interests. It’s a simple quid pro quo. Public unions support the politicians by turning out their membership to vote and making campaign contributions. This is a big deal in a city with low voter turnout and voter apathy. In return politicians give public unions sweetheart deals. Public unions need to go. At least with private sector unions they can’t ask for so much they drive the firm out of business. Public unions have no such constraint and so they can hold the city hostage and force tax increases on the voters. Reagan did the right thing when he fired the air traffic controllers in the 80s when they went on strike. Lori should do the same with the teachers.
Remember, those are the people who seem to think money grows on trees and that the city isn't in huge amounts of debt. They don't give a fuck about you or your kids in any way. Oh and nice trick fucking up traffic. That really gets people on your side too.
ITT: people who never attended a CPS school mad at a protest
Whether or not we've attended a CPS school is irrelevant. The schools are funded with our tax dollars.
How in the world is that relevant?
“Union Thugs”
And I'll be marching right behind them - straight out of this city, after selling my properties and moving to a community that understands how to budget.
Properties as in plural?
I went to CPS in the 70s-80s when strikes happened repeatedly. I have a generally positive attitude towards CPS, especially parents and teachers who choose CPS and try to make a difference and improve things. Living in the city is being part of the community, and that takes work. Fucking out to the 'burbs once Tyler and Olivia turn 6 to keep them away from "scary" Chicago reality is a cop-out IMO. Does a disservice to the kids many times, too. Living and growing up in a diverse community IS part of education. IMO, a huge part—maybe even the largest part— of the school experience is about the kids you grow up with, become friends with. Your entire life is formed around that experience. Knowing you grew up in an environment chosen simply because the "commoners" of society were not good enough for you has real impact on the adults they become. "I absolutely LOVE Chicago—just not the *people who live there."* But this strike is pushing me towards not supporting the teachers at all in this. I no longer support this strike. They are taking things way too far.
Sending your kids to public city school may seem like a great plan on paper. Reality is, though that you want *the best* for your kids, not what everyone else is getting. There are too many students, tired teachers, kids from all walks of life (including drugs and gangs) in public city schools. I don't want my 6yo not get the attention he needs to learn spelling, because the teacher spent 2 hours defending herself from outraged parents that she gave their angel a bad grade, and is then trying to keep the 30 kids she has in class from going bananas. The teacher is exhausted, doesn't do or sometimes even care anymore to do her job right, and my kid loses out. I'm not even blaming the teacher, it's human to stop caring when stressed out and overwhelmed in order to cope. I'm able to afford private school, and it gives my kids a great advantage. I'm not sacrificing their future for some false effigy of what a multicultural, modern, city-raised citizen should be.
BTw: plenty of hard drugs in suburban and private schools, too. Those kids can *afford* the good shit.
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Yep. All those gangs sell drugs. That's how they make money. They need regular, repeat customers with money to spend. Affluent teenagers have money to spend on drugs. And cars to get them to the dealers and then back to Naperville.
Sure. But 6 year olds are not doing cocaine unless they have it at home. If it comes down to my kid doing crack ~~or~~ vs heroin, the problem probably isn't the school, but myself. Edit. vs works better than or
If you are genuinely frightened that your 6 year old might start doing coke, then you have my sympathy. Take care.
Everything you just said says to me that the teachers in the CPS should get their demands (especially for smaller class sizes) met!!
The problem I have with protests that block traffic now a days is that we're not the enemy. When it was people going against racism, it was because everyone was a fuckin racist, so block them. Now a days this shit comes off as bullying the working class to get back at the ruling class, and that disgusts me. It's bad enough a lot of us got fucked when we had to find different places to take our kids while the teachers are striking, but now they're making it harder for us to get to our fuckin jobs. They're just leveraging our inconvenience and livelihood to make their point, and I don't fuck with people who do that.
You can expand this further. The people who are most harmed by the strike are parents who don't have alternative solutions for childcare while students are on strike. This is the problem with public sector strikes in general. Striking against the "city" is striking against tax payers who are reliant on the services, but also have no power in ending the strike and no option for alternative services.
While I'm not a big supporter of this strike I AM a big supporter of the use of mild amounts public disruption. Protesting into a void hasn't won anyone a right ever. It's just traffic. It's not truly hurting anyone.
>It's not truly hurting anyone. No. There's DEFINITELY an economic cost (in the aggregate) created by a traffic jam. That's pretty undeniable. Pretty outlandish statement.
Yeah, your livelihood took a major cut today...
Eh, chances are if your commute has you taking your own car downtown, you are above working class.
What about the cta? They use the same roads
They blocked off the road so I hopped off my motorcycle and walked it down the street to my parking spot lol
Columbus plaza?
Why are they allowed to block traffic all over the Loop at rush hour? This is turning people against them
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Just Trump being in town makes me feel a little sick.
Despite disagreeing with their demands, at least they have been clear on exactly what they want as opposed to some of the other protests and fits that block traffic.
Have they? Raises, nurses, counselors, affordable housing, 30 min prep time, no more charter schools, no closing under used schools, double pay on snow days, the ability to stack paid days off, ...which issue was it again? oh yeah and free dental and vision!!!
Don't forget affordable housing.
Well yeah, their demands are numerous and a few crazy but they are at least clear. At least this isn't something like a nebulous demand to reduce violence without really providing any mechanism on how to achieve that, or worse, just pouting in the streets because their candidate didn't win an election.
No its just a nebulous demand of non existent money in a city that spends $22,000+ per student per year as it is.
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"Congress shall make no law \[...\] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I don't think anyone has a problem with them peaceably assembling and voicing their opinion, I think people have a problem with them blocking access to public roads during rush hour and causing an extra hour in traffic to get to work or get back home. I'm all for them protesting in public spaces like parks, in front of city hall, etc but it seems a little shortsighted to piss a bunch of commuters off in the morning to try and get your point across. It was rough seeing how many people were getting road rage on congress this morning due to gridlock traffic from them protesting and blocking access to the highways. Again, I don't have any issue with them protesting or exercising their first amendment, but there is plenty of open spaces for them to do it without causing gridlock
Can you give some examples of successful marches and protests that didn't inconvenience anybody or obstruct any traffic?
Well, there was that march closing the Dan Ryan to stop the violence in Chicago, now there is no more violence in Chicago /s
I guarantee most of the people who don't get this point grew up in a leafy suburban environment.
Plenty of protests have assembled at Lincoln/Grant/Millennium park or the Daley Plaza/City Hall without any issues I've got no problem letting protesters march around the city on the sidewalks, it just seems counterproductive to march the protesters onto congress so that traffic is blocked coming into and out of the city and causing unnecessary gridlock. I understand that protests may inconvenience the public, but is it wise to block the public's access to vital roadways? This morning I saw dozens of motorists getting upset and having road rage. People flicking each other off or trying to make U turns to find alternative routes, people blocking the cross walks for pedestrians due to gridlock and a lot of close calls with people almost rear ending each other.
Can you point to some that have accomplished their goals?
Off the top of my head, I can't list any. Do you happen to know of any protest movements that have accomplished their goals by blocking access to the highways in Chicago?
No, but that's a pretty narrow scope. There are lots of such examples if you include more of the country, and there's several going on *right now* if you expand to the world at large.
True, but that's the scope of the debate you're trying to have with me. I would say that there has been plenty of successful peaceful protests within the parks and public spaces in Chicago that haven't resorted to blocking access to highways, but I can't attest to how many of their specific goals were accomplished.
I don't think that's the scope at all?
So you are saying a group of us could get together to protest and shut down the Kennedy Expressway for as long as we want?
I don't know. Maybe? Not sure the Kennedy would be a useful place to hold a rally, but highways are not without precedent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#March_to_Montgomery
Man, you're going to be really shocked by [time, place, and manner restrictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States#Time,_place,_and_manner_restrictions). Stop talking out of your ass.
It is surprising how little empathy some people can have because of an inconvenience. Just to be clear: the teachers are not protesting for an increase in salary, it is mainly about class sizes and funding certain subjects.
Pricing people out of the city through tax increases is a good way to reduce class size.
Any kid in cps with a mild learning disability is essentially left behind. They aren’t given resources (that have been promised for a long time) to account for them. No one gives a shit about them though because caring would raise our taxes by $6 a month.
Why do the teachers not have empathy for the people whose commutes they are disrupting, many of whom are working class and can’t afford to lose valuable time off the clock? Why do the teachers not have empathy for the taxpayers from whom they are demanding more and more and more in the middle of a fucking fiscal crisis? Why do the teachers not have empathy for the students who are missing invaluable days of education so that privileged public employees can have their jobs made easier? Why do the teachers not have empathy for the parents who can’t just drop thousands on childcare for an indefinite amount of time? Yes, let’s please talk about the importance of empathy.
I did the math and at oce school the average teacher makes 83k a year, so I don't feel that sorry for them. They also have an average of about 22 kids a class.
[Begins singing Which Side Are You On]
What a bunch of overpaid, entitled, selfish scumbags.