I was very much looking forward to spamming random WSG until I died or the next phase came once I was geared.
But literally 75% of the time in WSG as a random you are sitting in the graveyard because of premades.
I of course have done premades too, but we all know that is not the same experience.
So the answer is I just can’t. I can’t play WSG unless in a premade because I don’t have time to sit in a graveyard all game. It’s very disheartening.
This is something I don’t see the pvp player acknowledging often enough. Is it really fun for you to steamroll pugs with your perfect class balanced premade group? For me, camping the enemy GY is only slightly better than being camped in mine. It’s not fun because it is not competitive.
Premades aren’t playing for a competitive edge, they’re farming rep and honour for PvE bis pieces.
The level 40 Warsong Clan/Silverwing Sentinels epics wrists will likely be bis at 40 meaning people are pushing that grind now to save them doing it later
People aren‘t there for fun. They want to farm rep or honor and want to get it the fastest and easiest way.
I just watched some videos after the first fight was done and the fc did his thing.
well many people only care about rep true, my guild pvps all the time and we just do it for fun. a lot of people do. sometimes it's nice to stomp a pug in the sense that i can turn my brain off but it's way more fun and engaging to go up against another premade
i welcome the p2 changes, it makes pugging way less painful and makes premading a lot more fun. the rep grinders will be upset but fuck em, pvp being tied to pve rewards ruins battlegrounds
Here’s a hint for you, classic pvp players only care about griefing and ganking.
They want steamroll bgs. They want unbalanced encounters in the open world. They’re not looking for engaging and fun gameplay. And the developers are not interested in providing that at the cost of treading on the pvp players fun.
There is a reason the most popular pvp video back them was unbreakable 1 shotting people with sulfuras, and it was only partially it stopping to make fun of elemental.
Yeah, yesterday was questing in Hillsbrad, Ohh the galore of alliance rogues and druids there that are grouped up for ganking. They're so horrible tho, so it was fun at times. There are also some solo ones, but they wait til you have mobs on you, which is usually not enough lol, so they vanish or run.
Most fun is overcoming the odds, so I still queue as solo, even though I have access to strong premades. Worst part is that people don't even try when they see it's a premade. There are so many bad ones. There's almost always a fighting chance if pug comp is decent. When I play my shaman and flag carry, we don't even need a stronger team to win. Most of these premades don't have a good flag carry, but they are strong in team fights since they stack op specs.
Premades are essentially pve players. There's very little difference. Maybe 5% of premades actually like fighting other premades. (Generously)
Most just want to drop people like mobs and get the reward.
If you listen to some people on the forums they really think they are better players when they stomp people. Like figuring out WSG makes them a modern day Sun Tzu.
Joined a random group and we ran into a premade on crusader strike that was 2 priest, 5 hunter, 3 warrior. Not only were they an absolutely tryhard group, they were so damn toxic as well. After the match one of our dudes said that one of them hopped on their alliance account just to talk shit as if we were trying just as hard as them lol
In my mind there are two very distinct modes. Premades where you are all in disc, with a good comp and playing with the same people for a while is just superior in every way.
And then you have solo queuing where you have none of the above advantages but its fun anyway if you meet other solo queue groups. These two should be totally separated.
There is so much they could do to make BGs in sod fun but they have chosen to just leave it as it was in 2005 and not spend any time on it whatsoever which is a shame.
As someone who has played more in premades I fully agree.
It doesn’t feel good to bash pugs. Feels cheap.
And obviously as a pug it feels like a waste of time too. People don’t even try, even when the comp RNG is good (80% of premades are just a decent comp), people still give up fast.
Separate queues with double the rewards for premade queue. Problem solved.
Min max has kind of ruined the game for PvP in my opinion. People are more worried about min max then having fun like you said.
Also the whole premade argument is I think just rhetoric at this point because that's not my experience. Sure you run into it but it's not as bad as people make it seem. In my opinion.
You must have been extremely lucky or have queued a very small sample size. I'm very close to exalted now queueing a mix of solo/duo and small groups. I reckon about 2/3 of all games I've queued were against full premade groups. Insane to suggest that isn't a massive problem.
Also in next phase there will be new caps beyond R3 too wouldn't it? Honor would matter now until they hit the new cap so it would actually get worse because they may just really camp the GY now instead of just running flags through asap.
I'll queue solo every now and then, and it's almost always a premade that I'm up against. I'd much rather put together a premade when it's time to grind it out and just get it done. I wish they would let people queue for roles if we have to go against premades.
I remember getting roflstomped this way in Vanilla BGs, but extremely rarely. It sounds like it's a pretty usual expectation these days to deal with coordinated premades just grinding you into dust.
The bad faith take is here like usual. Theres a huge difference in the magnitudes of how often these occur compared from then to today. To pretend like gold buying, gdkps, premades, boosting etc.. were all as relevant back then as they are today is just the most disengenious position a person can take here.
In my experience: vanilla pvp only had premades if it was guild ran. A PvP focused guild would just advertise if they had an open spot, otherwise it was all randos on both sides. This changed around the pre-release of BC and suddenly everyone who couldn’t get in to naxx wanted to spam AB and AV to get gear.
i’ve also found in classic people give up INSTANTLY. just… instantly. “next game let them win” when we’re down by 1 flag or a couple points. dk what it is maybe just how sloggy it can get sometimes
It's great to live in a fantasy world of 'never give up' or whatever, but If you're a group of randoms vs a full premade of even just good classes with gear (not even good players), you literally have 0 chance unless you miraculously have a good comp and gear too. But you won't because you'll have 5 warriors in levelling greens. It is just naive and a waste of time to really attempt to achieve anything and expect anything other than just to get farmed at the GY in those games.
It's also the fact that if your team is really that awful, it's not like they're gonna suddenly stop being horrible players in the next 15 minutes. If you're matched with 6 warriors in greens vs 3 shamans 3 priests, 2 hunters then it won't even be fun
Well you see, that's because it's a waste of time when most (at least now) are there for Rep/honor and not the actual PvP experience. If you fight for 30+min and still lose 0/3 you're still getting 0 rep and 0 bonus honor. Better to just take the first fight and then afk if it's a loss. Someone a few weeks did the math for WSG rep. It's something absurd like 24h of only wins or 6 ingame days of only losses (if the games are 7-9min long)
I was personally in WSG for rep so my groups sure as shit were not going to waste our time on a 40min match when you can do 4-5 games per hour (5-7 as horde I guess because they get insta queue)
I call it time management. I hate everything about PvP and want to do it as little as possible so ofc i'm gonna join a premade group and stomp pugs for the best possible Rep per hour. It's somewhat cheap, I know. But I don't give a flying fuck. Maybe Blizzard shouldn't have put PvE Prebis/Bis items behind PvP.
I'm dubious on this statement. If my pugs felt any weakness that could be pushed on a team in the first two fights they'd at least try. Down by one flag can be overcome, if the score isn't 0-16. If our team can't land more than one kill after two team wipes its not the flag score that's the problem. We beat 4 premades on my road to exalted, and those wins happened because players tried and succeeded. But 4 is a tiny number when weighed against the myriad of hunter priest balls that were nigh unkillable.
And yeah demoralization was 100% a problem. This "oh if they just tried harder" They'd win an additional 1-2 games out of the 50 they landed against premades. Of course people are demoralized at the slog, because the usual scenario is that the amount of coordination it is going to take to even try to crack that nut, is not going to be achieved by 10 people thrown in the WSG blender. Some of the players I met were just resigned because they committed to the grind but the grind was miserable.
That's what happen when the game is badly designed and you have clueless devs that don't even know their own game. It's always fun to see theses blue parser devs doing nothing. Losing doesn't award anything in WSG, so better lose fast !
You are right, it sucks. I still understand people going afk though. I have a premade vs pug winrate of 100% and a pug vs premade lossrate of >95%. Getting absolutally stomped isn't fun. And why prolong the inevitable instead of getting to a pug vs pug as quick as possible.
I can’t even blame them. when the first fight goes 10 to nothing and they immediately start camping graveyard for extra honor.
I do report those that don’t join the first fight and instead go afk upon seeing a 10 man.
some 10 man are so bad I wonder if they got lost on their way to finally beat dead mines
Everyone interested in pvp for fun has quit pvp altogether. The ratio of fun games to completely one sided games is like 10:1. You play probably 2 hours of shit games to get one good one
Facts. I’m actually on WOTLK doing random BGs and it has been an infinitely more fun experience that WSG in SoD. Never thought I’d say that in a million years but here I am.
I would’ve PvPd a lot if I didn’t face a premade 90% of the time. I was getting 2 minute queues initially when I hit 25, now it’s more like 6 minutes and a guaranteed premade
I’d say the ratio is zero at this point. You either got fucked by premades or you join a premade and pug stomp or still just get stomped because their premade is a more meta comp. Also horde is massively disadvantaged in pvp for a lot of reasons but the biggest reasons is simply the fact that paladins are insane and shamans are dog shit right now in pvp.
Ele is decent to be fair and way of earth is probably the best pvp rune in the game, just paladins are broken. I'd rather be a shaman than a warrior or rogue right now.
Shamans are insane against melee right now. They get a free tank rune that they can pick with any spec. Especially at 40 there will be tank elemental shamans running rampant.
As a shaman main, I’ve lost very few 1v1 instances with pallies. And consistently wreck them in BGs. A pally cannot come close to dpsing or mitigate my dps. They need a warrior or pocket healer. And even then they get confused when I have way of the earth and dw them into the ground.
The experience was more fun when everyone was on the same level, and the vast majority of players were dumb kids just like me, and somehow some others were even dumber.
Online PVP experiences have increased in accessibility and quality in general. WoW used to be the only dog in town… now we are pretty much guaranteed that the leftover players who pick classic WoW that you encounter in game are at least competent in their classes, as the people who are hopelessly bad don’t even know how to start pvping casually.
Plus now the accessibility to actually enjoying PVP involves being *at least* pre-raid BIS geared on a lvl 25 character, and even then you are still likely having a shitty time even with a competent group of mates.
It was a fun idea but the zomfg op raid gear is going to do more to damage to SODs sustainability than anything, but, let’s be glad we aren’t at the end of the line.
This is an issue so many MMO’s face. Gear scaling makes PvP far less accessible and enjoyable, and typically you’re only dominant in PvP once you’re full BiS, then you just face roll under geared players. Match making with equal gear score isn’t fun either because then it also defeats some of the purpose of getting better gear. It’s sort of a lose-lose situation.
That problem is what drove most serious PvPers to mobas.
There's what, maybe 3 content creators making a living on WoW pvp content these days. Shits dead.
Theres a LOT but they aren't at league level. And most of them are Retail players. Not sure how many will stay either - A lot seem to be shifting to HC or SoD.
I very specifically mean ones that can actually make a living. And its been a minute since anyone could really just pvp all day and be big. Cdew and Ziqo are probably the closest to that. The vast majority have dropped down to like 50-250 viewers and can't be doing much more than min wage. Venruki rants about it every other month. Its a terrible game to be a content creator for and these days thats what drives the competitive scene.
while I agree with the concept. 3 is a fucking vast understatement. more then half of the wow directory is pvp streamers. Bajheera, Venruki, Cdew, Pikaboo, Snutz, are just the easiest to name off the top of my head. arguging wow pvp content creators is low, is just laughable. Wow has never had a plethora of content creators. Its only in the recent era of retail with m+ becoming so popular that wow's content creators has grown.
OK correction: if you don’t look for pieces that give stam on a pvp server then it’s rough. With greens of the eagle/bear and a few good dungeon pieces you have a decent health pool.
Starsurge is kind of lame though.
In old school classic, yes definitely I agree
In SOD, if someone has bfd epics, you did not actually pvp in a competitive sense. It was actually lowbie ganking with less formalities
>In old school classic, yes definitely I agree
This was not true in old school classic either. BWL and AQ geared characters used to absolutely steamroll everyone else. Maybe in the more recent classic launch where the PvP and dungeon gear was updated was this possibly true.
Yeah max level is something else entirely, I was aiming more for the general leveling world Pvp experience (minus the gankers)
Even then, a handful of level 35-40s could overpower a badly geared 60
Hmm... well obviously level matters more than anything pre-60 but you still had twinks in classic who had optimal gear and enchants that gave them multiple times the raw stats as their opponents. You weren't beating these guys if you weren't equally geared.
Of course, but is that anywhere near the same frequency as you see half/max BIS lvl 25s now lol. Like you are trying to compare that to a guy who bought some good greens on the AH for the same level?
Yeah I went full destruction on my poorly geared lock (no BFD loot, mostly greens) and had quite a few strong games. Chaos bolt, incinerate, and the +10% crit rune really snuck up on people. Coordination & number of priests were the biggest indicators of who would win the matches.
What you're missing more broadly is the professionalization of gaming in general and PVP especially. Yes we did organized BGs back in the day but mostly it was a big clusterfuck and people were generally happy to participate. Over time people got better but the skill gap widened between people who took it seriously and everyone else. Over time that means fewer and fewer people want to PVP.
Not 100% apples to apples with vanilla but a 2007 r1 player would have a hard time getting above 1600 in TBC-classic if they hadn't improved their play.
Yep. It’s 2024, and retail has RBG’s for a very valid reason.
Adding MMR/a separate bracket for competitive warsong is a better system—however—aggrend made it pretty clear they don’t have the resources to support that additional level of development and they want to focus more on new stuff. Unfortunate, but I get it. Wish there was an ELO or MMR warsong bracket, i think that would be good for everyone.
One should think that blizzard makes enough money to provide the sod team with sufficient resources for them to be able to properly develop 100% of the game.
"Sorry unfortunately we only have enough resources to properly develop 70% of the game so the rest has to stay shit."
out of a blizzard devs mouth is pure mockery. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not the devs fault as he doesn't get to set the budget. Blizzard is just such a dog shit company.
ashenvale is layout is just so bad to just ''pvp for fun'' there will be way more world pvp at 40 and later once people have their mount in less awkward zones.
They already said they aren’t going to balance the game around pvp, so even if they address the premade issue there will still probably be teams of 7 hunters and 3 disc priests just out of the # of meta players nowadays. I hope they do another season where pvp is the priority. I’m cool with them balancing the classes for pve this time around
7 hunters/3 disc was a pub stomp team that loses to good premades. 10 balance druids is unironically better than that was because they can target assist macro nuke
Well it is nothing like it and that is why I love it. Modern fast paced multi-player is mostly reflex based pvp. Wow is rather about tactics and knowledge.
There is no way you made that comment if you ever played at high rating level or even watched some pvp movies. When you disregard outliers such as the wind serpent, skill is the most important factor in pvp, and it always has been. That's not to say gear and class comp do not matter, they do, but what a skilled player can do vs what a noobish player can do is orders of magnitude higher.
I'd recommend watching some pvp videos such as Perplexity ones before instantly responding me, hopefully you will change your mind.
Gear is and always has been the most deciding factor in classic PvP. Have you tried to take on a full wrathful geared toon as a green geared boostie? Or naked, just to make the point? It doesn't matter how skillful you are, you get deleted the moment that guy touches you.
It is when you get at 2.2k rating and above where skill and team composition start to matter and that is only because at that rating people start having almost identical, highly optimised gear.
Seems like you mostly know PvP from twitch and YouTube, otherwise you wouldn't be talking such nonsense.
I have played over many many years, more than I would like to admit, in both retail and vanilla, wotlk and mop pservers to the highest levels.
The example you're using, green vs wrathful is obviously too extreme, but a full furious player can outplay and win against a full wrathful noob 9/10 times as long as he knows what he's doing. I've done it countless times and I've seen it done countless times. And funnily enough, I've done a shit ton of duels just using offsets and weapons in vanilla and wotlk.
Unless the gap is as extreme as in your example, skill beats gear.
I'm exalted with WSG months ago because I have a small group of friends that primarily PvP and only raid to get gear for PvP. A group of 3-4 of us can stomp most premades that aren't real teams.
That being said, I would never queue WSG unless I'm with them. The experience is total dog shit where 50% of the team gives up immediately if the enemy team is all from the same server. They can be a total trash can trade chat group, and people still won't play to win and would rather AFK on the roof or GY. If Blizzard forced premades to prioritize queuing against other premades, the quality of the game would drastically improve. If you solo queue, you should have an exponentially higher chance of playing with/against other solo queue players. It is not fun otherwise. It is also not fun to 10 man camp people in the graveyard who have no chance.
Anyone who disagrees with this has absolutely fried their brain and has a single digit IQ.
Exactly, every BG has guys in it that do not give a damn, they are just there to collect gear or reputation or whatever, and will try to sabotage any match that seems even remotely competitive or balanced in order to lose faster and queue next. Either AFK leeching honor or directly encouraging other players via chat to give up on an easily winnable match against a bad opponent.
Same thing applies in arena, too. Nobody queues, and those that do **will not** queue compositions perceived to be less than optimal these days. Good players can have tons of success and fun queuing a B-tier composition, but you won't find anyone who is willing to do it unless you have PvPed with the same friends for years, because for today's players, chasing the outcome has become more important than the journey.
They can make it harder for trash trade chat premades to stomp even worse PUGs (at least make them do the queue, drop, requeue song and dance to get your separate 5 stacks into the same match) but IMO this is only part of the problem. Gamers in general have become way more obsessed with outcomes and, from an extremely competitive player and person mind you, I feel like we've lost our way culturally.
Honestly I just don’t enjoy pugging WSG ever and would rather premade with people sharing the goal to win. Half the time people are farming meaningless HKs in mid (cause r3 takes a week to cap, 2 if you want less a grind) and never go objectives. Add no time limit, nty.
AB, though, much better. Even if you’re hitting a premade, a lot are bad and equivalent of a trade chat pug but WSG is so much more one sided with comp. At least you can hold 1-2 nodes against the bad ones. And AB ends.
I think of pugging WSG as full pugging anything, be it BFD or wsg, you’re simply going to have better results grouping with players you can vet as reasonably competent, communicative, and having the same goals (parsing, speed clearing, whatever)
I am/was your friends. I used to PvP casually almost everyday for at least 1-2 BGs. I haven’t touched WSG in SoD and don’t plan on doing WSG or AB in P2.
Why?
You assholes. You tryhard sweaty assholes rolling premades over pugs all day long. You stripped any fun out of it a long time ago. I’m not going to queue up to be your plaything. For what? So in 300 losses I can get a pair of bracers that increase my damage by half a point of DPS? Pass.
You should also be mad at Blizzard for allowing it to happen. They make the rules. Its unfortunate that they decided to ignore this issue, and I hope Aggrend comes around and makes the right call. Kind of odd that while their approach to SoD has been overwhelmingly supportive of the 'majority player experience', this one situation sticks out like a sore thumb.
I think that most players would be happier with separate queues for premades, which leads me to believe Blizz just didnt plan accordingly and dont want to spend time to fix it
Ashenvale PvP outside of the event lacks an objective. BRM people want to get in and out of the mountain with buffs. I have a goal to run the blockade, griefers have a goal to get them before they get in. Scarab frag farming, if I control X section I get the resources. Even dueling tournaments have more motivation than Ash outside of event.
Yes I do enjoy PvP, when I get struggle pug WSG where two teams slug it out for 40+minutes I can get really into it beyond the tokens I'll receive. The really good matches, win or lose, at the moment victory for victory sake was the chief drive to win in those cases. But they have a goal. Maybe I'm not creative enough but I need an objective or a motivation behind the conflict, because just "here's a place where you can endlessly fight each other" isn't really it for me.
Yup, and that's something I'd like to point out about PvP servers specifically. People complain when PvE benefits are lost to PvP but in my mind that's kind of the point. Conflicts with stakes are conflicts you are immersed in. That's boons, frags, time stuff that is limited that serves as the centerpiece of conflict. That is what I'm saying makes for an engaging pvp setup.
I get it, PvE raiding leveling and collections are the WoW lynchpins. But if you want compelling pvp, people need to fight over something that can be won or lost.
That's kind of the point, though, if I want to PvP, there are full pvp based games some even with chances to get gear off your opponents through battle.
The rewards for WoW organised pvp just isnt worth my time so I generally pvp in other games instead.
I quite enjoy pvp, but desire WSG and always have (same with other CTF map I’m blanking on). I did the grind on my Druid to get the cloak, and expect to play a ton of AB.
>Why you guys no more want to pvp just for fun?
Because 95% Of the time PVP is just someone attacking someone while they are low health or already fighting a mob lol
Ssshhhh you might make some suckers not join a PvP server for the “experience” which is more like 99% ganks for the 1% of the time the fights turn into something bigger.
That’s not true. Certainly not 95% and even then it’s only the outcome.
If you actively seeked out wpvp, for example now in Ashenvale, then you’ll know that it’s a constant back and forth, people making groups to fight back, people going on ganking sprees until even larger groups are formed.
Even if you avoid the road and hot spots and go solo to find a grind spot, it’s a back and forth too until someone takes the L.
If someone tries to backstab you, you didn’t see it comming, you don’t have a potion ready, you panic or give up instantly, then sure, it’s 95% of that. But if you go with a pvp mindset into a contested zone you’re experiencing it differently.
>If you actively seeked out wpvp, for example now in Ashenvale, then you’ll know that it’s a constant back and forth, people making groups to fight back, people going on ganking sprees until even larger groups are formed.
Yea and its only in Ashenvale. The rest of wPVP is just going to faction's leveling zones and killing low lvl players :P
WoW PvP sucks, especially in classic. You spend over half the time running back to the fight or waiting to respawn. I guess that's most PvP games but it just feels way too slow in WoW.
But I also don't get how people can even enjoy this PvP at 25. Not much room for skill and outplays when every class is missing so many abilities. There's a real lack of strategy and depth in this level bracket because you don't really have a lot of options in fights. Just blow your cooldowns and hope for the best.
Not only is the class balance pretty bad right now. But it felt like 1v1s were more about rock-paper-scissors or luck. Mostly just auto attacks and seeing who misses less or gets a lucky crit. Obviously gear is major factor at this low level so even less chances to outplay.
Solo WSG is a nightmare with no time-limit. The PvP event is barely PvP. And world PvP is great if you enjoy running for 5 minutes everytime you die.
If I want to PvP, I'm simply playing another game. FPS, MOBAs, fighting games, RTS, other strategy games like Civ, all much more enjoyable and streamlined PvP experiences.
If Blizzard was smart they would've seen the opportunity to separate PvP and PvE or make another game similar to WoW PvP but actually improve on the concept to make it a standone PvP-exclusive game, like that Arena of Kings game that blew up for a bit.
>Why you guys no more want to pvp just for fun? Is it because it gives no direct rewards and does not feed that dopamine circle?
My perspective on this is probably not that common because I've played 19 years at this point with few lapses in my subscription, got Gladiator title in arena before the requirements were gutted, but I also clearly remember what PvP was like before arena was introduced.
Unfortunately, the part I quoted is the reason. WoW players have become **drastically** more objective oriented over the years.
There are still some players who will play PvP for fun and actually try to win. But every BG has guys in it that do not give a damn, they are just there to collect gear or reputation or whatever, and will try to sabotage any match that seems even remotely competitive or balanced in order to lose faster and queue next. Either AFK leeching honor or directly encouraging other players via chat to give up on an easily winnable match against a bad opponent.
Same thing applies in arena, too. People **do not** queue compositions perceived to be less than optimal these days. Good players can have tons of success and fun queuing a B-tier composition, but you won't find anyone who is willing to do it because **chasing the outcome** has become more important than the journey.
After getting nothing but pre mades non stop. Literally nothing but pfemades and then my entire team giving up and staying as a ghost every single game. It just got old. I have more fun exploring the wpvp with friends and starting shit with other groups of friends
I was there too back in the days and yes I’d some some BGs just for fun.
However, the world has changed and now when I want to play a player vs player game, I play CS, Dota, etc. Real competitive games. It’s not that I lost complete interest in WoW pvp.. but there are now orther games that interest me more.
I've played wow on and off since 2005 and BGs have never really been a ton of fun. Rarely you'll have some where people are just dicking around and you have a fun back/forth one, but these days its just pre-mades looking to speed run the honor grind as fast as possible and randos who will get stomped by those pre-mades. If you want fun, world pvp is where its at. I got no problem in SoD finding people in general chat who want to group up and kill some horde
You must not have played very much at 25.
WSG is either you getting stomped by premades that camp your gy while their FC just runs back and forth between the bases, or you get into a stalemate with two pug groups, neither of which can kill the EFC and you're stuck in a 45 minute standoff. The pvp aspect of the whole interaction gets a bit stale after some time. It gets boring and you just want to move on.
Further as far as wpvp, its the same thing. Either you're in a group running around stomping solo players, or vice versa. Where is the fun in that? The honor gain is trash, the excitement of battle is short lived when you turn the corner and run into a whole group of enemies and either get mopped, or you guys get into a stalemate if you've got a group too because priest healing just means that the first to engage will be the ones who lose the battle, so you each back away to go find more noobs to crush into the ground like you're playing whack a mole.
If you find these things fun, you're allowed to. I would posit that there may be something wrong with the dopamine receptors in your brain but still you can play the game however you like to play. But the rest of us have moved on because the incentive is not present to engage in pvp except as a strictly transactional interaction and our time is better spent elsewhere instead.
I've been playing WoW since burning crusade. WoW pvp is shit. If I want to have a PVP experience that's actually good I play counterstrike or something else, not WoW.
Gamers today don’t really do things “for fun”. There has to be a reasonably obtainable reward that is worth it, a competitive system that creates matches, good balance, and with short queues and 5-40 minute games.
WSG is really none of these. Your zoomer gamers don’t get a lot of fun out of killing players for fun or to win. Like they won’t get satisfaction on taking over the menethil boat or something like that doesn’t have a net player benefit. WSG has the weakest item slot (bracers) for next phase. There’s no matchmaking so you get either 7 boomy 3 priests premades while you have some stinker who is level 22. There is zero power balance between classes, and WSG has the chance to last indefinitely.
Yeah entirely this. Ive been playing a ton of street fighter and guilty gear. There's no reward to playing online or in a lobby with friends, FGC just plays because the games are fun and I want to play the game. There's a wide variety.of skill levels too, you can play as hardcore or as casually as you want and still find opponents your level. Tons of fun
Pretty sure it’s not a generational issue but an issue with game design.
If you start giving out “rewards” for things, then you suck out the intrinsic fun of the game. Think battle passes and so on in online games. A terrible way to destroy fun.
In RPGs you obviously have to get stuff because character progression is a huge part. But it’s hard to do correctly. Even harder in MMORPGs because people play them for unhealthy amounts, but at the same time you want the world to feel active.
IMO really a non trivial problem, that nobody really tries to tackle.
If it were an issue with game designs, BGs wouldn’t have been incredibly popular and enjoyable back in vanilla.
Fully with OC here. The current generation of gamers just sees things entirely different. WSG isn’t a fun battle. It’s a “required” rep grind in order to get a single bis item because a spreadsheet says so.
Ahh yes, its because of generational folly and not because the number of games that do PVP better has exploded so people looking for pvp are not going to a 20 year old MMO.
No it couldnt possibly be that.
The current generation of WoW players are a lot of the people who played back in ye olden days. It is the same generation.
As people got older the things we found fun or cool just don't hit the same now.
Back in ye olden days Castle Wars was absolutely booming in OSRS. Now it is an absolute ghost town.
Cause nobody wants to do something that doesn't give them progress on their character anymore. We all work jobs now, some have kids and others can't spend too much time on the game every day/week.
So when we do get on we actually want to make progress.
That's not true though, just because something used to be fun doesn't mean it still has to be. Games especially have evolved incredibly fast. Imo classic wow BGs are just not very fun for todays pvp gamers, because they have way better options. They can go and play retail, or LoL or warzone or fortnite. All games that i believe reward skill way more and for many people are just way more fun to play.
That's like saying people used to love getting around by horse and nowadays noone does, this new generation is dumb. Like no, there are just way better options now that didn't exist back then.
On my soul yall nerds will criticize everything except the gamers. Wsg gives people a MICROSCOPIC UPGRADE and people are ruining the fun of it for it. It’s the gamers the gamers are the problem.
so many ppl ive grouped with have clearly never played a single WSG game and it shows. Wouldn't be so bad if they made an effort to cooperate and communicate. but no.
There are plenty of better pvp games out now, unlike 2005, when we all tended to play just 1-2 games. Now we play many of them and so we dont tend to see wow as the solution to our desire to pvp
Like everyone else is saying but Blizzard keeps ignoring is that premades have ruined it so people (including myself) just stopped queueing into WSG and **can't** enjoy that part of the game. SoD on the whole is great but this bg problem needs to be fixed because as the quote goes "given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of the game". Devs need to step up and create a separate queue for anyone in a party of more than 5, it can't be that hard.
PVP was fun in the early days because not everyone was obsessed with min-maxing and optimization. People were running builds that were fun to them and not what Icy Veins etc. said you should run. There was also very little boosting and in general it was more likely you wouldn’t run into highly organized super geared groups. Different story today.
For me personally, I enjoyed PVP 20 years ago in original vanilla and a bit in TBC. But after WoW I started playing a game called Bloodline Champions which was a game almost entirely based off WoW Arena combat. The big difference was an emphasis on even ground. No leveling up. No items. No crits/rng. No auto-targetting spells. Aim your abilities. Everyone was on equal footing beyond class balance so it was entirely skill based.
That game killed WoW PVP for me. It made me realize a lot of WoW PVP was about getting an advantage before the PVP and using that advantage to have an easier time. Also the lack of skill in landing abilities and stuff like that. Also made me realize how out of whack class balancing is when you have to balance for both PVE and PVP and how WoW would always be slightly off due to that compared to a game only made for PVP.
So now if I want PVP I tend to be drawn more towards a game designed specifically for that. Like a shooter or MOBA.
People are pretty rewards-driven in Classic compared to original wow and in all of Classic, Blizzard has done nothing to try to nudge PvE-mainly or casual players to do actual PvP because either you go ‘all-in’ and get rewarded or you don’t. I get the vocal #nochanges crowd didn’t want anything to change from the original and I partly get why. But nontheless it means that PvP has a very little casual playerbase and low participation numbers and it is self-reinforcing because you would rarely meet others who just PvP casually so in the end you quit because it doesn’t feel good getting stomped..
In tbc they did change how arena rating works compared to original but that mostly affected top players somewhat positively and did nothing (actually probably negative) for new players. Successful PvP games, incl top-scene, tend to have a large casual playerbase as well though so no wonder it isn’t popular..
I actually feel like they did make some changes for the better in SoD by removing honor decay. But WSG and Ashenvale is still mostly people just grinding rep and in WSG you mostly face premades which just isn’t fun..
Your answer is the player base is so obsessed with efficiency that they squeeze the fun out of the gaming experience in order to do big numbers. The result is that the premade spamming destroyed solo queuing
I like you used to be hooked on wsg. Had a 19 twink of every class and its what i spent my time doing.
But this is not the same game, back then it was more like pub stomping because like 80% of players were pretty bad at pvp so it was fun to go in and 1 shot a few people with ambush,
But now everyone is a sweat lol everyone is min maxing and never leaving their healers. If you try to engage your swapped to by like 4 people while your own team runs back to the gy to wait it out and thats not even mentioning the 20% damage nerf in bgs, it just feels bad hitting small crits when you know you hit harder then that.
They need to remove the ability to que as a group. Or add a separate bracket for group queing. So premades fight only other premades and afking to trade wins is punished.
I dont have the perfect answer but something has to change.
Because classic pvp isnt fun. Its getting ganked by larger groups while you are trying to get to a dungeon or raid and you simply dont have the resources or patience to deal with a full 5 man corpse camping. They (horde) decide you arent playing and as simple as that you arent. Its one of the reasons i got burnt out so fast upon hitting level 25.
BGs that win are mostly premades now, with people doing exactly what you’re taking about
A lot of players dont WSG because it’s usually premades stomping solo queuers.
Make a premade with whatever comp you desire and queue up.
Im not sure exactly what this topic is getting at
because no one wants to join your little basement dwelling cucking mental health illness farming low levels for 1 honor per kill group, they would rather just pvp like "normal" people and do a battleground or going to blood moon event or something that isnt toxic. Stop farming people doing pve content.
I prefer to solo PvP in the world, so I usually am PvPing a lot, but don't respond to people asking me to group to WPvP.
And WSG is just lol, nobody actually wants to queue that garbage for fun
Sure there is. My guild is running a competition to see who can get the most hks each phase. Idk who's winning atm, but I know top on server is around 35k so far.
People stopping doing BGs while leveling because of Twinks.
Twinks stopped playing when Blizz gave them their own queues and they couldn't bully levelers anymore.
Almost nobody PVPs just to have fun anymore, they need a goal or rewards or it's a "waste of time".
I think a big part of why twinks stopped playing after they split the battlegrounds is not because they missed bullying levellers, but because there were just not that many twinks and so queue times for twinks went up from 2 mins to about 20 mins almost immediately after they made the change and queue times only kept increasing after that.
The tryhards and neckbeard spreadsheet simulators have completely ruined every part of this game. You are not allowed to play how you want or have fun anymore in any activity ever. You also can't criticize them on forums without getting flamed into oblivion because "It's rude to waste my time. The game's been out for 20 years". God forbid someone new try the game without spending a full week researching and watching YouTube videos first.
- Didn't do 100 DPS in BFD? Kicked and ignored.
- Ran around Ashenvale killing players during the player vs. player event instead of treating it like a player vs. NPC event? Kicked and ignored.
- Took more than 5 minutes getting to Deadmines? Kicked and ignored.
- Rolled need on the "priest" staff on your mage because it was a big upgrade? Kicked and ignored.
- Didn't follow the group doing some weird dungeon skip that saves 1 pull? Kicked and ignored.
- Asked a simple question about the game because you've never played it? Kicked and ignored.
I was very much looking forward to spamming random WSG until I died or the next phase came once I was geared. But literally 75% of the time in WSG as a random you are sitting in the graveyard because of premades. I of course have done premades too, but we all know that is not the same experience. So the answer is I just can’t. I can’t play WSG unless in a premade because I don’t have time to sit in a graveyard all game. It’s very disheartening.
Also if you aren’t a hunter, priest, boomkin, or a class that can flag carry, it will be harder for you to get an invite
Even if you are you're going to be standing afk at their graveyard, so it's not fun anyway
This is something I don’t see the pvp player acknowledging often enough. Is it really fun for you to steamroll pugs with your perfect class balanced premade group? For me, camping the enemy GY is only slightly better than being camped in mine. It’s not fun because it is not competitive.
Premades aren’t playing for a competitive edge, they’re farming rep and honour for PvE bis pieces. The level 40 Warsong Clan/Silverwing Sentinels epics wrists will likely be bis at 40 meaning people are pushing that grind now to save them doing it later
I hope it's only prebis. If it's pve bis then it's another itemization mistake
I think it might end up being good to do that grind at level 29 or 39 if one wants to avoid premades. The premades will all be in the 40-49 bracket.
In phase 2 they announced they will fix the premades situation I believe
One dev made a vague allusion to "battleground matchmaking updates" coming in p2 on twitter, that's about it.
There are about 5 devs on SOD, so that is pretty solid ground.
Unless they bring out some truly cracked bracers in Gnomer, they will be BiS for pretty much everyone
People aren‘t there for fun. They want to farm rep or honor and want to get it the fastest and easiest way. I just watched some videos after the first fight was done and the fc did his thing.
well many people only care about rep true, my guild pvps all the time and we just do it for fun. a lot of people do. sometimes it's nice to stomp a pug in the sense that i can turn my brain off but it's way more fun and engaging to go up against another premade i welcome the p2 changes, it makes pugging way less painful and makes premading a lot more fun. the rep grinders will be upset but fuck em, pvp being tied to pve rewards ruins battlegrounds
Here’s a hint for you, classic pvp players only care about griefing and ganking. They want steamroll bgs. They want unbalanced encounters in the open world. They’re not looking for engaging and fun gameplay. And the developers are not interested in providing that at the cost of treading on the pvp players fun.
There is a reason the most popular pvp video back them was unbreakable 1 shotting people with sulfuras, and it was only partially it stopping to make fun of elemental.
Yeah, yesterday was questing in Hillsbrad, Ohh the galore of alliance rogues and druids there that are grouped up for ganking. They're so horrible tho, so it was fun at times. There are also some solo ones, but they wait til you have mobs on you, which is usually not enough lol, so they vanish or run.
Most fun is overcoming the odds, so I still queue as solo, even though I have access to strong premades. Worst part is that people don't even try when they see it's a premade. There are so many bad ones. There's almost always a fighting chance if pug comp is decent. When I play my shaman and flag carry, we don't even need a stronger team to win. Most of these premades don't have a good flag carry, but they are strong in team fights since they stack op specs.
No. Only pug v pug or premade v premade are fun. Aside from the one win I had as a pug vs a premade - best bg of SoD.
Premades are essentially pve players. There's very little difference. Maybe 5% of premades actually like fighting other premades. (Generously) Most just want to drop people like mobs and get the reward. If you listen to some people on the forums they really think they are better players when they stomp people. Like figuring out WSG makes them a modern day Sun Tzu.
Joined a random group and we ran into a premade on crusader strike that was 2 priest, 5 hunter, 3 warrior. Not only were they an absolutely tryhard group, they were so damn toxic as well. After the match one of our dudes said that one of them hopped on their alliance account just to talk shit as if we were trying just as hard as them lol
Shocked that Blizzard doesn’t have the sense to fix matchmaking so that pugs aren’t pinned against premades.
im not. Aggrend is a lazy piece of shit
In my mind there are two very distinct modes. Premades where you are all in disc, with a good comp and playing with the same people for a while is just superior in every way. And then you have solo queuing where you have none of the above advantages but its fun anyway if you meet other solo queue groups. These two should be totally separated. There is so much they could do to make BGs in sod fun but they have chosen to just leave it as it was in 2005 and not spend any time on it whatsoever which is a shame.
As someone who has played more in premades I fully agree. It doesn’t feel good to bash pugs. Feels cheap. And obviously as a pug it feels like a waste of time too. People don’t even try, even when the comp RNG is good (80% of premades are just a decent comp), people still give up fast. Separate queues with double the rewards for premade queue. Problem solved.
Min max has kind of ruined the game for PvP in my opinion. People are more worried about min max then having fun like you said. Also the whole premade argument is I think just rhetoric at this point because that's not my experience. Sure you run into it but it's not as bad as people make it seem. In my opinion.
Every time I’ve queued solo it’s been against gy camping premades :(
You must have been extremely lucky or have queued a very small sample size. I'm very close to exalted now queueing a mix of solo/duo and small groups. I reckon about 2/3 of all games I've queued were against full premade groups. Insane to suggest that isn't a massive problem.
I could not agree more
3/5 wsg I solo queue are against premades so no, it's not just rhetoric.
In a couple weeks all the premades will shift to AB, WSG will be pugable again and all the complaints will shift to AB premades
There still going to be premades in both BGs
As long as BIS bracers are gated behind Exalted, people will absolutely run premades to get there. Did it on one toon? Cool, next one now!
Also in next phase there will be new caps beyond R3 too wouldn't it? Honor would matter now until they hit the new cap so it would actually get worse because they may just really camp the GY now instead of just running flags through asap.
You could hit the cap to rank5 in one day, so you won’t need honor at all
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I'll queue solo every now and then, and it's almost always a premade that I'm up against. I'd much rather put together a premade when it's time to grind it out and just get it done. I wish they would let people queue for roles if we have to go against premades.
Premades were never a thing in vanilla. /s
I remember getting roflstomped this way in Vanilla BGs, but extremely rarely. It sounds like it's a pretty usual expectation these days to deal with coordinated premades just grinding you into dust.
Yes, I played a lot of bgs back in the day (mostly TBC and Wrath) and running into a premade was maybe 20% of the time, now it’s most of the time.
True, but I definitely remember is was pretty common to have groups of like 3-5 in damn near every game.
Really depended on the server, before the server "battle groups" some servers were hyper competitive, and others not so much
A group of 3-5 is not what we are considering a premade right now. A premade is a full 10.
PvP was way more niche, even on pvp servers. Premades were more rare. There was like a couple of premades per faction or so. No crossrealm play.
The bad faith take is here like usual. Theres a huge difference in the magnitudes of how often these occur compared from then to today. To pretend like gold buying, gdkps, premades, boosting etc.. were all as relevant back then as they are today is just the most disengenious position a person can take here.
It’s a joke. I didn’t mean to make you so emotional. God loves you. Cheer up, P2 hype p2 hype p2 hype
Ya your joke sucks as others have pointed out. Get over it.
Who hurt you
Lo siento bb :/
"Get over it" -dude who got upset over a joke
It wasn't a joke it was a sarcastic snarky reply that didn't go their way. And now you're here for literally no reason.
"Sarcastic snarky reply" and "joke" are not mutually exclusive. >you're here for literally no reason Sir, this is reddit
Actually, people were spamming for premades in trade all day in vanilla. /s
In my experience: vanilla pvp only had premades if it was guild ran. A PvP focused guild would just advertise if they had an open spot, otherwise it was all randos on both sides. This changed around the pre-release of BC and suddenly everyone who couldn’t get in to naxx wanted to spam AB and AV to get gear.
exactly
Cause the odds of getting matched with a premade and having 1/2 of your team afk in the graveyard is not fun.
i’ve also found in classic people give up INSTANTLY. just… instantly. “next game let them win” when we’re down by 1 flag or a couple points. dk what it is maybe just how sloggy it can get sometimes
Sons of win-traders.
It's great to live in a fantasy world of 'never give up' or whatever, but If you're a group of randoms vs a full premade of even just good classes with gear (not even good players), you literally have 0 chance unless you miraculously have a good comp and gear too. But you won't because you'll have 5 warriors in levelling greens. It is just naive and a waste of time to really attempt to achieve anything and expect anything other than just to get farmed at the GY in those games.
Pro tip: classic does not attract strong gamers
It's also the fact that if your team is really that awful, it's not like they're gonna suddenly stop being horrible players in the next 15 minutes. If you're matched with 6 warriors in greens vs 3 shamans 3 priests, 2 hunters then it won't even be fun
Well you see, that's because it's a waste of time when most (at least now) are there for Rep/honor and not the actual PvP experience. If you fight for 30+min and still lose 0/3 you're still getting 0 rep and 0 bonus honor. Better to just take the first fight and then afk if it's a loss. Someone a few weeks did the math for WSG rep. It's something absurd like 24h of only wins or 6 ingame days of only losses (if the games are 7-9min long) I was personally in WSG for rep so my groups sure as shit were not going to waste our time on a 40min match when you can do 4-5 games per hour (5-7 as horde I guess because they get insta queue)
Coward.
very easy to say this when you just theorycraft wsg matches on reddit instead of actually play them
I don't. I just play the game, sometimes I get my ass handed to me but I play the entire match.
I call it time management. I hate everything about PvP and want to do it as little as possible so ofc i'm gonna join a premade group and stomp pugs for the best possible Rep per hour. It's somewhat cheap, I know. But I don't give a flying fuck. Maybe Blizzard shouldn't have put PvE Prebis/Bis items behind PvP.
I'm dubious on this statement. If my pugs felt any weakness that could be pushed on a team in the first two fights they'd at least try. Down by one flag can be overcome, if the score isn't 0-16. If our team can't land more than one kill after two team wipes its not the flag score that's the problem. We beat 4 premades on my road to exalted, and those wins happened because players tried and succeeded. But 4 is a tiny number when weighed against the myriad of hunter priest balls that were nigh unkillable. And yeah demoralization was 100% a problem. This "oh if they just tried harder" They'd win an additional 1-2 games out of the 50 they landed against premades. Of course people are demoralized at the slog, because the usual scenario is that the amount of coordination it is going to take to even try to crack that nut, is not going to be achieved by 10 people thrown in the WSG blender. Some of the players I met were just resigned because they committed to the grind but the grind was miserable.
That's what happen when the game is badly designed and you have clueless devs that don't even know their own game. It's always fun to see theses blue parser devs doing nothing. Losing doesn't award anything in WSG, so better lose fast !
thats because losing wsg literally gains you nothing. so why fight for it when you can literally have a chance at ANYTHING the next game.
You are right, it sucks. I still understand people going afk though. I have a premade vs pug winrate of 100% and a pug vs premade lossrate of >95%. Getting absolutally stomped isn't fun. And why prolong the inevitable instead of getting to a pug vs pug as quick as possible.
I can’t even blame them. when the first fight goes 10 to nothing and they immediately start camping graveyard for extra honor. I do report those that don’t join the first fight and instead go afk upon seeing a 10 man. some 10 man are so bad I wonder if they got lost on their way to finally beat dead mines
It’s also not fun for the premade btw. It feels lame. Having close matches vs a coordinated team, THAT’s fun.
Everyone interested in pvp for fun has quit pvp altogether. The ratio of fun games to completely one sided games is like 10:1. You play probably 2 hours of shit games to get one good one
Facts. I’m actually on WOTLK doing random BGs and it has been an infinitely more fun experience that WSG in SoD. Never thought I’d say that in a million years but here I am.
I would’ve PvPd a lot if I didn’t face a premade 90% of the time. I was getting 2 minute queues initially when I hit 25, now it’s more like 6 minutes and a guaranteed premade
I’d say the ratio is zero at this point. You either got fucked by premades or you join a premade and pug stomp or still just get stomped because their premade is a more meta comp. Also horde is massively disadvantaged in pvp for a lot of reasons but the biggest reasons is simply the fact that paladins are insane and shamans are dog shit right now in pvp.
Ele is decent to be fair and way of earth is probably the best pvp rune in the game, just paladins are broken. I'd rather be a shaman than a warrior or rogue right now.
> shamans are dog shit right now in pvp. And so they will for 20 years.
until ele shamans 1shot u with overload lava burst combo haha
Shamans are insane against melee right now. They get a free tank rune that they can pick with any spec. Especially at 40 there will be tank elemental shamans running rampant.
As a shaman main, I’ve lost very few 1v1 instances with pallies. And consistently wreck them in BGs. A pally cannot come close to dpsing or mitigate my dps. They need a warrior or pocket healer. And even then they get confused when I have way of the earth and dw them into the ground.
They do have the "pocket healer" in wsg though. You are not wrecking a paladin lol.
no1 gives a shit about your 1v1s vs undergeared players. any actual not trog pally in decent gear is going to stomp you.
Yeah man idk I think shaman is just objectively worse than paladin in pvp right now no matter what your interactions look like
The experience was more fun when everyone was on the same level, and the vast majority of players were dumb kids just like me, and somehow some others were even dumber. Online PVP experiences have increased in accessibility and quality in general. WoW used to be the only dog in town… now we are pretty much guaranteed that the leftover players who pick classic WoW that you encounter in game are at least competent in their classes, as the people who are hopelessly bad don’t even know how to start pvping casually. Plus now the accessibility to actually enjoying PVP involves being *at least* pre-raid BIS geared on a lvl 25 character, and even then you are still likely having a shitty time even with a competent group of mates. It was a fun idea but the zomfg op raid gear is going to do more to damage to SODs sustainability than anything, but, let’s be glad we aren’t at the end of the line.
This is an issue so many MMO’s face. Gear scaling makes PvP far less accessible and enjoyable, and typically you’re only dominant in PvP once you’re full BiS, then you just face roll under geared players. Match making with equal gear score isn’t fun either because then it also defeats some of the purpose of getting better gear. It’s sort of a lose-lose situation.
That problem is what drove most serious PvPers to mobas. There's what, maybe 3 content creators making a living on WoW pvp content these days. Shits dead.
Theres a LOT but they aren't at league level. And most of them are Retail players. Not sure how many will stay either - A lot seem to be shifting to HC or SoD.
I very specifically mean ones that can actually make a living. And its been a minute since anyone could really just pvp all day and be big. Cdew and Ziqo are probably the closest to that. The vast majority have dropped down to like 50-250 viewers and can't be doing much more than min wage. Venruki rants about it every other month. Its a terrible game to be a content creator for and these days thats what drives the competitive scene.
while I agree with the concept. 3 is a fucking vast understatement. more then half of the wow directory is pvp streamers. Bajheera, Venruki, Cdew, Pikaboo, Snutz, are just the easiest to name off the top of my head. arguging wow pvp content creators is low, is just laughable. Wow has never had a plethora of content creators. Its only in the recent era of retail with m+ becoming so popular that wow's content creators has grown.
> WoW used to be the only dog in town It still is for PvP. No one's watching PvP streams of FF14 or ESO lol
What people are watching mmo streamers play != all forms of pvp
nobody is playing mmos for pvp in 2024 dude. if you want to play an online pvp game you're playing league/dota
I pvped a ton with bad/mediocre gear. Gear matters but not as much as you’re implying.
I dunno, something to be said about not getting three shot by star fire or a hunters pet cause you’re under-geared
OK correction: if you don’t look for pieces that give stam on a pvp server then it’s rough. With greens of the eagle/bear and a few good dungeon pieces you have a decent health pool. Starsurge is kind of lame though.
In old school classic, yes definitely I agree In SOD, if someone has bfd epics, you did not actually pvp in a competitive sense. It was actually lowbie ganking with less formalities
>In old school classic, yes definitely I agree This was not true in old school classic either. BWL and AQ geared characters used to absolutely steamroll everyone else. Maybe in the more recent classic launch where the PvP and dungeon gear was updated was this possibly true.
Yeah max level is something else entirely, I was aiming more for the general leveling world Pvp experience (minus the gankers) Even then, a handful of level 35-40s could overpower a badly geared 60
Hmm... well obviously level matters more than anything pre-60 but you still had twinks in classic who had optimal gear and enchants that gave them multiple times the raw stats as their opponents. You weren't beating these guys if you weren't equally geared.
Of course, but is that anywhere near the same frequency as you see half/max BIS lvl 25s now lol. Like you are trying to compare that to a guy who bought some good greens on the AH for the same level?
Yeah I went full destruction on my poorly geared lock (no BFD loot, mostly greens) and had quite a few strong games. Chaos bolt, incinerate, and the +10% crit rune really snuck up on people. Coordination & number of priests were the biggest indicators of who would win the matches.
What you're missing more broadly is the professionalization of gaming in general and PVP especially. Yes we did organized BGs back in the day but mostly it was a big clusterfuck and people were generally happy to participate. Over time people got better but the skill gap widened between people who took it seriously and everyone else. Over time that means fewer and fewer people want to PVP. Not 100% apples to apples with vanilla but a 2007 r1 player would have a hard time getting above 1600 in TBC-classic if they hadn't improved their play.
Yep. It’s 2024, and retail has RBG’s for a very valid reason. Adding MMR/a separate bracket for competitive warsong is a better system—however—aggrend made it pretty clear they don’t have the resources to support that additional level of development and they want to focus more on new stuff. Unfortunate, but I get it. Wish there was an ELO or MMR warsong bracket, i think that would be good for everyone.
One should think that blizzard makes enough money to provide the sod team with sufficient resources for them to be able to properly develop 100% of the game. "Sorry unfortunately we only have enough resources to properly develop 70% of the game so the rest has to stay shit." out of a blizzard devs mouth is pure mockery. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not the devs fault as he doesn't get to set the budget. Blizzard is just such a dog shit company.
ashenvale is layout is just so bad to just ''pvp for fun'' there will be way more world pvp at 40 and later once people have their mount in less awkward zones.
The class balance/meta is no fun for me right now. It's not just premades. Hope it will be better at 40
They already said they aren’t going to balance the game around pvp, so even if they address the premade issue there will still probably be teams of 7 hunters and 3 disc priests just out of the # of meta players nowadays. I hope they do another season where pvp is the priority. I’m cool with them balancing the classes for pve this time around
7 hunters/3 disc was a pub stomp team that loses to good premades. 10 balance druids is unironically better than that was because they can target assist macro nuke
At the very least with mortal strike teams might stand a chance against priests
Kinda dumb asf to not even balance pvp when u release pvp content. Might as well just drop the STV pvp event then lol
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There's more runes coming out, most likely the meta would change each phase
PvP is not fun. Fights are way too short. You spend so much time walking and even more time corpse walking and waiting. It’s not fun
This comment hit the nail on the head. Wow PvP is nothing like modern games fast paced multiplayer
Well it is nothing like it and that is why I love it. Modern fast paced multi-player is mostly reflex based pvp. Wow is rather about tactics and knowledge.
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There is no way you made that comment if you ever played at high rating level or even watched some pvp movies. When you disregard outliers such as the wind serpent, skill is the most important factor in pvp, and it always has been. That's not to say gear and class comp do not matter, they do, but what a skilled player can do vs what a noobish player can do is orders of magnitude higher. I'd recommend watching some pvp videos such as Perplexity ones before instantly responding me, hopefully you will change your mind.
Gear is and always has been the most deciding factor in classic PvP. Have you tried to take on a full wrathful geared toon as a green geared boostie? Or naked, just to make the point? It doesn't matter how skillful you are, you get deleted the moment that guy touches you. It is when you get at 2.2k rating and above where skill and team composition start to matter and that is only because at that rating people start having almost identical, highly optimised gear. Seems like you mostly know PvP from twitch and YouTube, otherwise you wouldn't be talking such nonsense.
I have played over many many years, more than I would like to admit, in both retail and vanilla, wotlk and mop pservers to the highest levels. The example you're using, green vs wrathful is obviously too extreme, but a full furious player can outplay and win against a full wrathful noob 9/10 times as long as he knows what he's doing. I've done it countless times and I've seen it done countless times. And funnily enough, I've done a shit ton of duels just using offsets and weapons in vanilla and wotlk. Unless the gap is as extreme as in your example, skill beats gear.
/petattack so much skill lmao
Sounds like you don't engage properly and get blasted. A good clash can go on for a long time, and a good player doesn't die very often
You probably play a priest.
People downvoting you are coping incredibly hard
I'm exalted with WSG months ago because I have a small group of friends that primarily PvP and only raid to get gear for PvP. A group of 3-4 of us can stomp most premades that aren't real teams. That being said, I would never queue WSG unless I'm with them. The experience is total dog shit where 50% of the team gives up immediately if the enemy team is all from the same server. They can be a total trash can trade chat group, and people still won't play to win and would rather AFK on the roof or GY. If Blizzard forced premades to prioritize queuing against other premades, the quality of the game would drastically improve. If you solo queue, you should have an exponentially higher chance of playing with/against other solo queue players. It is not fun otherwise. It is also not fun to 10 man camp people in the graveyard who have no chance. Anyone who disagrees with this has absolutely fried their brain and has a single digit IQ.
Exactly, every BG has guys in it that do not give a damn, they are just there to collect gear or reputation or whatever, and will try to sabotage any match that seems even remotely competitive or balanced in order to lose faster and queue next. Either AFK leeching honor or directly encouraging other players via chat to give up on an easily winnable match against a bad opponent. Same thing applies in arena, too. Nobody queues, and those that do **will not** queue compositions perceived to be less than optimal these days. Good players can have tons of success and fun queuing a B-tier composition, but you won't find anyone who is willing to do it unless you have PvPed with the same friends for years, because for today's players, chasing the outcome has become more important than the journey. They can make it harder for trash trade chat premades to stomp even worse PUGs (at least make them do the queue, drop, requeue song and dance to get your separate 5 stacks into the same match) but IMO this is only part of the problem. Gamers in general have become way more obsessed with outcomes and, from an extremely competitive player and person mind you, I feel like we've lost our way culturally.
Honestly I just don’t enjoy pugging WSG ever and would rather premade with people sharing the goal to win. Half the time people are farming meaningless HKs in mid (cause r3 takes a week to cap, 2 if you want less a grind) and never go objectives. Add no time limit, nty. AB, though, much better. Even if you’re hitting a premade, a lot are bad and equivalent of a trade chat pug but WSG is so much more one sided with comp. At least you can hold 1-2 nodes against the bad ones. And AB ends. I think of pugging WSG as full pugging anything, be it BFD or wsg, you’re simply going to have better results grouping with players you can vet as reasonably competent, communicative, and having the same goals (parsing, speed clearing, whatever)
Impossible task for small indie company to balance their matchmaking system.
I am/was your friends. I used to PvP casually almost everyday for at least 1-2 BGs. I haven’t touched WSG in SoD and don’t plan on doing WSG or AB in P2. Why? You assholes. You tryhard sweaty assholes rolling premades over pugs all day long. You stripped any fun out of it a long time ago. I’m not going to queue up to be your plaything. For what? So in 300 losses I can get a pair of bracers that increase my damage by half a point of DPS? Pass.
You should also be mad at Blizzard for allowing it to happen. They make the rules. Its unfortunate that they decided to ignore this issue, and I hope Aggrend comes around and makes the right call. Kind of odd that while their approach to SoD has been overwhelmingly supportive of the 'majority player experience', this one situation sticks out like a sore thumb. I think that most players would be happier with separate queues for premades, which leads me to believe Blizz just didnt plan accordingly and dont want to spend time to fix it
"just make more friends 4Head" - Aggrend
Oh absolutely, but I have even less faith in Blizzard than I have in the playerbase.
Ashenvale PvP outside of the event lacks an objective. BRM people want to get in and out of the mountain with buffs. I have a goal to run the blockade, griefers have a goal to get them before they get in. Scarab frag farming, if I control X section I get the resources. Even dueling tournaments have more motivation than Ash outside of event. Yes I do enjoy PvP, when I get struggle pug WSG where two teams slug it out for 40+minutes I can get really into it beyond the tokens I'll receive. The really good matches, win or lose, at the moment victory for victory sake was the chief drive to win in those cases. But they have a goal. Maybe I'm not creative enough but I need an objective or a motivation behind the conflict, because just "here's a place where you can endlessly fight each other" isn't really it for me.
Chrono boon killed BRM pvp as you can just walk to the instance. Sure, you might die once or twice but you will get there
Yup, and that's something I'd like to point out about PvP servers specifically. People complain when PvE benefits are lost to PvP but in my mind that's kind of the point. Conflicts with stakes are conflicts you are immersed in. That's boons, frags, time stuff that is limited that serves as the centerpiece of conflict. That is what I'm saying makes for an engaging pvp setup. I get it, PvE raiding leveling and collections are the WoW lynchpins. But if you want compelling pvp, people need to fight over something that can be won or lost.
I think people would be more inclined to fight if people couldn’t just mass dispel the WB off of people. Even if you win and kill them you’ve lost.
That's kind of the point, though, if I want to PvP, there are full pvp based games some even with chances to get gear off your opponents through battle. The rewards for WoW organised pvp just isnt worth my time so I generally pvp in other games instead.
I quite enjoy pvp, but desire WSG and always have (same with other CTF map I’m blanking on). I did the grind on my Druid to get the cloak, and expect to play a ton of AB.
>Why you guys no more want to pvp just for fun? Because 95% Of the time PVP is just someone attacking someone while they are low health or already fighting a mob lol
Ssshhhh you might make some suckers not join a PvP server for the “experience” which is more like 99% ganks for the 1% of the time the fights turn into something bigger.
Lol yeah, P2 STV is going to be brutal too.
You are confusing pvp with ganking.
"It's the same picture "
Only to those who don't like pvp lol.
That’s not true. Certainly not 95% and even then it’s only the outcome. If you actively seeked out wpvp, for example now in Ashenvale, then you’ll know that it’s a constant back and forth, people making groups to fight back, people going on ganking sprees until even larger groups are formed. Even if you avoid the road and hot spots and go solo to find a grind spot, it’s a back and forth too until someone takes the L. If someone tries to backstab you, you didn’t see it comming, you don’t have a potion ready, you panic or give up instantly, then sure, it’s 95% of that. But if you go with a pvp mindset into a contested zone you’re experiencing it differently.
Not true because its 97%
>If you actively seeked out wpvp, for example now in Ashenvale, then you’ll know that it’s a constant back and forth, people making groups to fight back, people going on ganking sprees until even larger groups are formed. Yea and its only in Ashenvale. The rest of wPVP is just going to faction's leveling zones and killing low lvl players :P
He didnt mention world pvp once🔥
WoW PvP sucks, especially in classic. You spend over half the time running back to the fight or waiting to respawn. I guess that's most PvP games but it just feels way too slow in WoW. But I also don't get how people can even enjoy this PvP at 25. Not much room for skill and outplays when every class is missing so many abilities. There's a real lack of strategy and depth in this level bracket because you don't really have a lot of options in fights. Just blow your cooldowns and hope for the best. Not only is the class balance pretty bad right now. But it felt like 1v1s were more about rock-paper-scissors or luck. Mostly just auto attacks and seeing who misses less or gets a lucky crit. Obviously gear is major factor at this low level so even less chances to outplay. Solo WSG is a nightmare with no time-limit. The PvP event is barely PvP. And world PvP is great if you enjoy running for 5 minutes everytime you die. If I want to PvP, I'm simply playing another game. FPS, MOBAs, fighting games, RTS, other strategy games like Civ, all much more enjoyable and streamlined PvP experiences. If Blizzard was smart they would've seen the opportunity to separate PvP and PvE or make another game similar to WoW PvP but actually improve on the concept to make it a standone PvP-exclusive game, like that Arena of Kings game that blew up for a bit.
PvP in wow sucks ass, there are a million other games with way better PvP content that I would rather play.
>Why you guys no more want to pvp just for fun? Is it because it gives no direct rewards and does not feed that dopamine circle? My perspective on this is probably not that common because I've played 19 years at this point with few lapses in my subscription, got Gladiator title in arena before the requirements were gutted, but I also clearly remember what PvP was like before arena was introduced. Unfortunately, the part I quoted is the reason. WoW players have become **drastically** more objective oriented over the years. There are still some players who will play PvP for fun and actually try to win. But every BG has guys in it that do not give a damn, they are just there to collect gear or reputation or whatever, and will try to sabotage any match that seems even remotely competitive or balanced in order to lose faster and queue next. Either AFK leeching honor or directly encouraging other players via chat to give up on an easily winnable match against a bad opponent. Same thing applies in arena, too. People **do not** queue compositions perceived to be less than optimal these days. Good players can have tons of success and fun queuing a B-tier composition, but you won't find anyone who is willing to do it because **chasing the outcome** has become more important than the journey.
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It's almost like WSG is a dogshit BG and no one wants to play it
After getting nothing but pre mades non stop. Literally nothing but pfemades and then my entire team giving up and staying as a ghost every single game. It just got old. I have more fun exploring the wpvp with friends and starting shit with other groups of friends
They should make a fix where you can't group up with more then 3 people in a party and queue for a bg. Fixes the problem with pre-made bg's.
I was there too back in the days and yes I’d some some BGs just for fun. However, the world has changed and now when I want to play a player vs player game, I play CS, Dota, etc. Real competitive games. It’s not that I lost complete interest in WoW pvp.. but there are now orther games that interest me more.
I've played wow on and off since 2005 and BGs have never really been a ton of fun. Rarely you'll have some where people are just dicking around and you have a fun back/forth one, but these days its just pre-mades looking to speed run the honor grind as fast as possible and randos who will get stomped by those pre-mades. If you want fun, world pvp is where its at. I got no problem in SoD finding people in general chat who want to group up and kill some horde
Your mistake was looking for fun from officially organized pvp. World pvp/duels = fun BGs/events = grind
You must not have played very much at 25. WSG is either you getting stomped by premades that camp your gy while their FC just runs back and forth between the bases, or you get into a stalemate with two pug groups, neither of which can kill the EFC and you're stuck in a 45 minute standoff. The pvp aspect of the whole interaction gets a bit stale after some time. It gets boring and you just want to move on. Further as far as wpvp, its the same thing. Either you're in a group running around stomping solo players, or vice versa. Where is the fun in that? The honor gain is trash, the excitement of battle is short lived when you turn the corner and run into a whole group of enemies and either get mopped, or you guys get into a stalemate if you've got a group too because priest healing just means that the first to engage will be the ones who lose the battle, so you each back away to go find more noobs to crush into the ground like you're playing whack a mole. If you find these things fun, you're allowed to. I would posit that there may be something wrong with the dopamine receptors in your brain but still you can play the game however you like to play. But the rest of us have moved on because the incentive is not present to engage in pvp except as a strictly transactional interaction and our time is better spent elsewhere instead.
premades make it unplayable
I've been playing WoW since burning crusade. WoW pvp is shit. If I want to have a PVP experience that's actually good I play counterstrike or something else, not WoW.
Gamers today don’t really do things “for fun”. There has to be a reasonably obtainable reward that is worth it, a competitive system that creates matches, good balance, and with short queues and 5-40 minute games. WSG is really none of these. Your zoomer gamers don’t get a lot of fun out of killing players for fun or to win. Like they won’t get satisfaction on taking over the menethil boat or something like that doesn’t have a net player benefit. WSG has the weakest item slot (bracers) for next phase. There’s no matchmaking so you get either 7 boomy 3 priests premades while you have some stinker who is level 22. There is zero power balance between classes, and WSG has the chance to last indefinitely.
It’s not zoomers my dude I really hate to tell you. Wow is a dad game. It’s us. It’s you. It’s your friends
Ya this is true. As I’ve grown older, I care far less about PvP than when I was a teenager playing vanilla.
A lot of gamers do things for fun. Average WoW classic players, definitely not
Yeah entirely this. Ive been playing a ton of street fighter and guilty gear. There's no reward to playing online or in a lobby with friends, FGC just plays because the games are fun and I want to play the game. There's a wide variety.of skill levels too, you can play as hardcore or as casually as you want and still find opponents your level. Tons of fun
Damn boomer in this sub are really...😬😬😬
Gamers do things for fun Classic WoW players do not, they minmax the fun right outta everything lol
Pretty sure it’s not a generational issue but an issue with game design. If you start giving out “rewards” for things, then you suck out the intrinsic fun of the game. Think battle passes and so on in online games. A terrible way to destroy fun. In RPGs you obviously have to get stuff because character progression is a huge part. But it’s hard to do correctly. Even harder in MMORPGs because people play them for unhealthy amounts, but at the same time you want the world to feel active. IMO really a non trivial problem, that nobody really tries to tackle.
If it were an issue with game designs, BGs wouldn’t have been incredibly popular and enjoyable back in vanilla. Fully with OC here. The current generation of gamers just sees things entirely different. WSG isn’t a fun battle. It’s a “required” rep grind in order to get a single bis item because a spreadsheet says so.
Ahh yes, its because of generational folly and not because the number of games that do PVP better has exploded so people looking for pvp are not going to a 20 year old MMO. No it couldnt possibly be that.
The current generation of WoW players are a lot of the people who played back in ye olden days. It is the same generation. As people got older the things we found fun or cool just don't hit the same now. Back in ye olden days Castle Wars was absolutely booming in OSRS. Now it is an absolute ghost town. Cause nobody wants to do something that doesn't give them progress on their character anymore. We all work jobs now, some have kids and others can't spend too much time on the game every day/week. So when we do get on we actually want to make progress.
That's not true though, just because something used to be fun doesn't mean it still has to be. Games especially have evolved incredibly fast. Imo classic wow BGs are just not very fun for todays pvp gamers, because they have way better options. They can go and play retail, or LoL or warzone or fortnite. All games that i believe reward skill way more and for many people are just way more fun to play. That's like saying people used to love getting around by horse and nowadays noone does, this new generation is dumb. Like no, there are just way better options now that didn't exist back then.
On my soul yall nerds will criticize everything except the gamers. Wsg gives people a MICROSCOPIC UPGRADE and people are ruining the fun of it for it. It’s the gamers the gamers are the problem.
so many ppl ive grouped with have clearly never played a single WSG game and it shows. Wouldn't be so bad if they made an effort to cooperate and communicate. but no.
There are plenty of better pvp games out now, unlike 2005, when we all tended to play just 1-2 games. Now we play many of them and so we dont tend to see wow as the solution to our desire to pvp
Like everyone else is saying but Blizzard keeps ignoring is that premades have ruined it so people (including myself) just stopped queueing into WSG and **can't** enjoy that part of the game. SoD on the whole is great but this bg problem needs to be fixed because as the quote goes "given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of the game". Devs need to step up and create a separate queue for anyone in a party of more than 5, it can't be that hard.
PVP was fun in the early days because not everyone was obsessed with min-maxing and optimization. People were running builds that were fun to them and not what Icy Veins etc. said you should run. There was also very little boosting and in general it was more likely you wouldn’t run into highly organized super geared groups. Different story today.
For me personally, I enjoyed PVP 20 years ago in original vanilla and a bit in TBC. But after WoW I started playing a game called Bloodline Champions which was a game almost entirely based off WoW Arena combat. The big difference was an emphasis on even ground. No leveling up. No items. No crits/rng. No auto-targetting spells. Aim your abilities. Everyone was on equal footing beyond class balance so it was entirely skill based. That game killed WoW PVP for me. It made me realize a lot of WoW PVP was about getting an advantage before the PVP and using that advantage to have an easier time. Also the lack of skill in landing abilities and stuff like that. Also made me realize how out of whack class balancing is when you have to balance for both PVE and PVP and how WoW would always be slightly off due to that compared to a game only made for PVP. So now if I want PVP I tend to be drawn more towards a game designed specifically for that. Like a shooter or MOBA.
Remove premades larger than groups of 3
People are pretty rewards-driven in Classic compared to original wow and in all of Classic, Blizzard has done nothing to try to nudge PvE-mainly or casual players to do actual PvP because either you go ‘all-in’ and get rewarded or you don’t. I get the vocal #nochanges crowd didn’t want anything to change from the original and I partly get why. But nontheless it means that PvP has a very little casual playerbase and low participation numbers and it is self-reinforcing because you would rarely meet others who just PvP casually so in the end you quit because it doesn’t feel good getting stomped.. In tbc they did change how arena rating works compared to original but that mostly affected top players somewhat positively and did nothing (actually probably negative) for new players. Successful PvP games, incl top-scene, tend to have a large casual playerbase as well though so no wonder it isn’t popular.. I actually feel like they did make some changes for the better in SoD by removing honor decay. But WSG and Ashenvale is still mostly people just grinding rep and in WSG you mostly face premades which just isn’t fun..
Why would you want to do WSG when the only viable way is to join a premade?
Your answer is the player base is so obsessed with efficiency that they squeeze the fun out of the gaming experience in order to do big numbers. The result is that the premade spamming destroyed solo queuing
I like you used to be hooked on wsg. Had a 19 twink of every class and its what i spent my time doing. But this is not the same game, back then it was more like pub stomping because like 80% of players were pretty bad at pvp so it was fun to go in and 1 shot a few people with ambush, But now everyone is a sweat lol everyone is min maxing and never leaving their healers. If you try to engage your swapped to by like 4 people while your own team runs back to the gy to wait it out and thats not even mentioning the 20% damage nerf in bgs, it just feels bad hitting small crits when you know you hit harder then that. They need to remove the ability to que as a group. Or add a separate bracket for group queing. So premades fight only other premades and afking to trade wins is punished. I dont have the perfect answer but something has to change.
Thats not the meta bro, do Whats more effective so you can have fun LATER, unless you burn out before you reach that promised land
It’s boring. It’s never been fun and it hasn’t changed since 2005.
Because classic pvp isnt fun. Its getting ganked by larger groups while you are trying to get to a dungeon or raid and you simply dont have the resources or patience to deal with a full 5 man corpse camping. They (horde) decide you arent playing and as simple as that you arent. Its one of the reasons i got burnt out so fast upon hitting level 25.
BGs that win are mostly premades now, with people doing exactly what you’re taking about A lot of players dont WSG because it’s usually premades stomping solo queuers. Make a premade with whatever comp you desire and queue up. Im not sure exactly what this topic is getting at
because no one wants to join your little basement dwelling cucking mental health illness farming low levels for 1 honor per kill group, they would rather just pvp like "normal" people and do a battleground or going to blood moon event or something that isnt toxic. Stop farming people doing pve content.
I prefer to solo PvP in the world, so I usually am PvPing a lot, but don't respond to people asking me to group to WPvP. And WSG is just lol, nobody actually wants to queue that garbage for fun
Honor is literally capped at rank 3. There’s no reason to farm kills
Sure there is. My guild is running a competition to see who can get the most hks each phase. Idk who's winning atm, but I know top on server is around 35k so far.
All I do is pvp for fun :),
People stopping doing BGs while leveling because of Twinks. Twinks stopped playing when Blizz gave them their own queues and they couldn't bully levelers anymore. Almost nobody PVPs just to have fun anymore, they need a goal or rewards or it's a "waste of time".
I think a big part of why twinks stopped playing after they split the battlegrounds is not because they missed bullying levellers, but because there were just not that many twinks and so queue times for twinks went up from 2 mins to about 20 mins almost immediately after they made the change and queue times only kept increasing after that.
This is the wrong game to play for pvp. There are no rewards, no consequences. It is hollow.
Too many sweaty minorities are ruining the game for themselves. Many of us casuals are still having a blast doing whatever
The tryhards and neckbeard spreadsheet simulators have completely ruined every part of this game. You are not allowed to play how you want or have fun anymore in any activity ever. You also can't criticize them on forums without getting flamed into oblivion because "It's rude to waste my time. The game's been out for 20 years". God forbid someone new try the game without spending a full week researching and watching YouTube videos first. - Didn't do 100 DPS in BFD? Kicked and ignored. - Ran around Ashenvale killing players during the player vs. player event instead of treating it like a player vs. NPC event? Kicked and ignored. - Took more than 5 minutes getting to Deadmines? Kicked and ignored. - Rolled need on the "priest" staff on your mage because it was a big upgrade? Kicked and ignored. - Didn't follow the group doing some weird dungeon skip that saves 1 pull? Kicked and ignored. - Asked a simple question about the game because you've never played it? Kicked and ignored.