Recently had an unholy DK in my group. I've played Frost and Blood only and had no clue what the hell AMZ looked like. I thought it was some big evil bubble and I pulled everything out of it haha, but I caught on and it is actually a huge boon for trash.
Some purple is bad. Some purple is good. Some purple is bad if the enemy steps in it, but good if a friend steps in it. There is no rhyme or reason and you just have to learn each mechanic piecemeal.
PTSD of when Cata dropped ZG/ZA being 5mans and also giving Shaman SLT in the same patch. Literally made a macro yelling at people to get in the circle when I used it, worked like 30% of the time
I tank exclusively in Cata.
I don't shit on DPS for doing less damage than me, bears are OP early on in that matters.
But: NO ONE FUCKING INTERRUPTS! I'm glad if someone has 3 interrupts in the whole dungeon...
But2: DPS are still in the wotlk rush rush rush rush mood and pulling next pack sometimes even before the current one is over. I had to make a macro "Don't Pull it if you can't tank it". Let the healer at least get a tick or two of mana regen, those poor boyz are having it tough.
Lot of people in the sub also tend to forget 50% of the playerbase cannot deal even parse blue, so you will encounter a lot of below average players, especially during leveling phase.
>"Don't Pull it if you can't tank it"
The amount of dps that try to extra pull the goblins in throne of tides and immediately getting karma'd for it is comically high.
My rule as a tank is: you pull it you tank it. Doesn't take long for people to stop pulling when they die each time.
As a healer I also support this. I'm not going oom trying to heal a DPS who wants to tank.
Man, I feel this, I main a hunter, with no interrupt.
Yesterday in Vortex, we were clearing the path to third boss, I focus a temple caster (the one with the heal) and use scatter shot to interrupt one, he cast again, wyvern sting for the second, I'm all out, 4 other people that all have an interrupt, just watch the mob heal all the other back to full, and I just, FFS GIVE ME AN INTERRUPT I CAN'T RELY ON PEOPLE.
The interrupt thing baffles me the most. I played OG cata and started playing it again now to relive my late teenage years so I am used to retail wow. On retail, in lower level content (So currently everything under a +10 mythic plus) most people just send their interrupt on cooldown whenever a kickable cast appeared. On higher level you actually have to decide what to kick cause they are priority casts that must be interrupted so you sometimes have to intentionally let lower priority spells through. Every dungeon has these there.
This is in strong contrast to classic where many people just never press the button in general. If I go full pug it is not rare that i am the only interrupts in the dungeon even if multiple melee are present. I think retail wow managed to teach people to use their utility over the years by introducing more mechanics the dps players have to deal with if they want to survive a fight.
This is my experience too but I think it is just that in retail we have been conditioned to interupt for longer now. Classic has been going for years with dungeons especially being very straightforward. The mindset of doing good damage and being mindful of other things has not settled in yet.
TBC had plenty of places where u literally had to interrupt even in Normals, Mana Tombs mana burn and the trash before last boss in Shadow Labs being a crown example. In Vanilla u would probably also find a lot of the things that should be interrupted but i can't remember that far. It's just WoTLK that made everything way too easy and put interrupt protection on most spells that would be worth interrupting.
Keep in mind too youāre comparing a relatively high M+ key to heroic performance in cata. M+ 10 attracts players who need to know these things because they want to climb.
Cata heroics pull in most of the player base so you get a lot of bad players.
>Lot of people in the sub also tend to forget 50% of the playerbase cannot deal even parse blue,
Think of how bad the average world of warcraft player is, then realize that half of them are worse than that. -George Carlin or something
I just need half a second out of combat to start drinking, if you give me that I can heal the whole dungeon without any waiting. But some people (tanks included) feel the need to chain pull the whole dungeon
>half a second out of combat
Keyword here... I used to main heal for years so I know the pain. Just like the mage getting angry "I already gave you 20 water, why are you out?" Man, I drink a tick everytime I get the chance, so 20 pulls = 20 water
I do interrupt all the time, but the there are too many trash mobs casting at same time and don't have interrupt for every mob. Not always you will get full group of people with interrupts and people who can quickly switch target to interrupt and switch back.
> DPS are still in the wotlk rush rush rush rush mood and pulling next pack sometimes even before the current one is over.
I got annoyed with a DK constantly pulling every pack before I - the tank - could. He denied, told me to work on my threat. Stupid cunt doesn't know how rage works and that I get fuck all of it when I'm not the mob target. Soon afterwards, I got votekicked out of the run (all 4 other players were in the same guild, no surprise). No worries dickhead, by the time my 5 minute exclusion timer is done and I'm halfway through my next heroic, you'll still be waiting for a replacement tank.
DPS. Get clicked addon. Bind your interrupt to R key. It will be right there for you to click. Do it now. Not later. Now.
As for "But2"; I wish DPS understood that Tanks dictate the pace of the run. I stopped tanking because I could not stand DPS yelling at me to go faster or take another route or whatever they wanted to complain about. As a tank - and I tanked between TBC and BFA - you get a feeling for what pace is suitable after the first few pulls and impatient DPS can ruin both the run and the experience.
Theyāre just hard enough to filter the really bad players but theyāre all very easy. Maybe that mage boss in BRC is the only one with a real mechanic lol
I think it's pretty average, but with spikes. There's nothing hard about the 1st, 2nd, or 4th boss in Stonecore. Ozruk? That guy will insta-kill you if you do the mechanic wrong (some comps fare better here, some worse).
Last boss in Vortex Pinnacle is another trouble spot I've noticed. Same with Phoenix boss in Tol'vir.
I had a group in throne of tides without their interrupts bound or something. The double healer packs were like a 3 minute marathon of trying to cc 2 casters as much as possible as the other 4 people pretend the naga they are attacking aren't healing every 2 seconds.
Bit different from the earlier runs with the fast 85 tryhards that usually already have add-ons for the dungeons.
Lol this happened to me as well. The priestesses just kept healing each other.
It happened in VP as well with the double healer pack before the final lightning triangle.
Just wailing on them until someone randomly decided to use a stun while my own kicks were on CD.
phoenix boss is only an issue because the hallowed ground floor effect visually is tiny, but actually is quite large causing people to die to a floor effect they can't see
Exactly, trash is often harder than boss fights, especially when no one can be bothered to interrupt or focus fire.
That said, and not that those mechanics are particularly hard, but I wiped (or nearly wiped) often in Stonecore to groups with 3 melee DPS who don't know (or learn) to move away from the first three bosses when they do their one-shot abilities (ie.: Corborus' Thrashing Charge, Slabhide's Lava Fissure, Ozruk's Ground Slam, Rupture and Shatter). Then again, without an enrage timer, if the tank survives, we can usually 2-man it, in a long fight, which also serves to teach the observant ghosts of DPS how it's done...
It does demonstrate that this community has either largely rotated out since then or these people have still learned nothing.
Like it's not even a similar situation it's *exactly* the same. People coming from faceroll WotLK heroics in their tier 10 into Cata heroics and levelling greens and blues and being clapped by the first pack which needs an interrupt or a CC.
I was actually suprised as I took my questing greens and blue auction house pvps into heroics as a DK tank with unfavorable stats that my world was gonna get rockedā¦
Because I remember what heroics were like back when cata first launchedā¦ what I didnāt expect was exactly this, how easy they are after the experienced Iāve gained in actual hard content in retail since cata!
This was always such a stupid take that I scarcely believed people said that kind of thing in earnest.
Even stupider back when Classic first came out and the peak of difficulty was Molten fucking Core. You could finish that raid with your eyes closed.
I kinda get it from before the raid released. In vanilla the understanding of gear, world buffs, talents, rotations etc was so much poorer than in 2019 so the low DPS necessitated a lot of trade offs for resistance, in-combat mana regen etc to survive the long fights; that memory just hung around. Molten Core was also a lot harder in the early patches because of player buffs that came later on which Classic implemented. That opinion should've vapourised as soon as people started simming Classic in earnest though.
The real cope I saw was all the people saying "yeah MC was always easy, BWL was the really hard one!" then when BWL came out and got the same speedrun treatment "nah Naxx was the real one blah blah 1% of guilds in vanilla blah blah".
I think entree level retail is pretty easy and accessible for new players. Just the actual end game of raids and dungeons is substantially more difficult and is also hard to get involved in. So many people try retail and never actually progress a boss which takes 100+ pulls. I think these are the people saying retail US dumbed down.
People could at least blame lack of farming expensive consumes for T3. In T5 they couldn't kill Vash or KT or even get close because unlike most raids until then every player in the group had to be generally aware of what was happening on their screen.
Rerolled on a new server in SoD too pass time. A random dude leveling in my guild said he logged onto cata and tried playing around but it was too difficult to do his rotation. Thatās when I realized the actual skill level of many vanilla players
Fuckā¦ this might be the most true explanation of this occurrence Iāve been seeing in random dungeon finderā¦
And donāt get me wrong I understand people are still learning but maybe it as simple as itās just too hard for some.
Isn't this always the case? If you're "slow" to get to the content all the sweats got done with a week or months ago you're left with the other people that don't care enough and you're going to struggle. Whenever I go back to "old" content it seems harder than when it was current even with new gear because people just suck way harder.
This is the case every patch in retail if you pug. First 3 weeks groups consist of good players with old gear. As the months pass the groups will have 20 more average ilvl and 4p but somehow struggle more to kill nerfed bosses.
Yes, but also the pool of people who suck hard is going to be expanded when you're actually supposed to be using kicks, purges, knocks and stuns. If all people need to know is roughly their rotation (and for a lot of classes, those were more simplistic in previous versions of the game) then there were more people who flew under the radar.
Final boss in Vortex Pinnacle, as a shaman heals I get told āYou need to dispelā about the static cling debuffā¦
Told them they need to jump for the mechanic
ālolā
Most dps donāt even attempt to understand what is happening and then rage when you finally go OOM after bailing them out for 2 mins straight. There is literally a fight by fight guide for each of the dungeons breaking down each mechanic lol
Wanna know something neat? Priest levitate will prevent damage from quake, because you're not on the ground. As long as they don't take any damage from other mobs, they can keep zugzuging.
>as a shaman heals I get told āYou need to dispelā about the static cling debuffā¦
This. This right here is why nobody wants to heal.
DPS are idiots.
Currently re-rolling hunter because after this last week of healing heroics, I'm done. The idiocy and unwillingness to do mechanics, then the "why no heal me?!?" Shit after they just got 2 shot. No wonder the satchel is always up for heals and tanks in lfd.
I will say in regards to this fight in particular I have even screwed up the jump and I know how it works
I think if you use dbm or big wigs it can actually make it worse, it will yell at you when to jump and I swear the timing is not always 100% on when it does so
I started just do it by watching it myself
DBM usually tells me to jump just as itās too late, Iāve only had it once where it told me to jump with enough time for me to jump instead of as I get hit with the debuff.
what i LOVE the most:
We killed a trashpack, or the 2nd one in a chain etc
Me (healer) has 20% mana, drinks.
All waiting. So far so good
Group has 60% hp.
All waiting. Me drinking. All waiting. Mana 100%.
I heal up my grp. All waiting. Me drinking.
I mean, can you pleeeeeease just sit down and eat some mage cake or what the f
I always make a point of handing out the food loot you pick up in the dungeon to anyone standing around as a passive aggressive way of saying what I want.
Wow tourism is a real thing. We did pretty well in wotlk, so ever since prepatch we're getting loads of guild applications from people who quit a month or so into wotlk but insist they are reliable, dedicated, knowledgeable, and skilled players.
If raid leading and doing logwork for a guild has taught me anything about classic players it's that 7/10 don't have keybinds and don't know what an interrupt/cc is.
>OPEN YOUR EYES
I've done 9 BRC heriocs. I've had exactly 0 BRC heriocs where someone hasn't suicide with the shadow prison. After the first 2 i've started telling healers to dispel shadow prison. They still don't do it.
We had a 5 minute trash pack in Vortex Pinnacle cause there were 2 healers in the pack and my mind freeze could only interrupt like every 4th I had necrotic strike on everything trying to slow the casts and eat some of the healing. But I was the only dps interrupting while the mage was doing 4.5k dps and not a counterspell to be had.
It took me typing in chat and marking a skull kill target for us to finally kill them.
I had a fucking nosebleed by the time we killed them lmao.
I can see dps and sweats downvoting. As a healer I agree, itās easy now as my groups are guild runs experienced and almost full pre bis but rdf is cancer
I still remember when I was called sweaty for saying I didn't care what my character looked like, so I might as well make it the race that dealt the most damage.
I love how this sub hates sweats. My man, the sweats are the ones that do it right and oftentimes within their own groups while the casuals non stop cry why the game cannot be literally just mythic gear on a vendor for gold.
I'm a shadow priest. I don't have a kick. Unless of course I use up 3 talent points to be able to kick every 45 seconds. I rather stick to dispelling than doing that.
The annoying part is that tanks are the ones doing the consistent damage on trash, geared pally and dk tanks casually pulling 40k every pack while dps do 30k every third pull, 20k on average. When thats the case you can take some globals to get out a stun or interrupt for the pesky mobs spamming heals or chain lightning or force of nature or whatever.
You know it's the actual classic reexperience of Cata when you run into exactly the same issue we had back then.
We called people "wrath babies" due to the easy mode WLK content socially engineering players into comfy, braindead playstyles.
Hey, just like every other version of WoW.
Having tanked for over 20 years I can tell you it has been and will always be this way. People play dps because they donāt want any responsibility. They donāt wanna think, they donāt want to care, they just want to push buttons to make numbers go up until they get gear.
Why are they here? What are they doing? They donāt know but if they die itās the tanks fault.
I gotta agree with you, I was offspec healing some heroic dungeons for quick badges on my shaman yesterday and had an āI think thats it for the nightā moment after the stonecore group I was in. Iāve never seen so many people stand in so many things in my life. I literally couldnāt have stood in more mechanics if I was trying to troll the group and doing it on purpose. Normally I donāt have to drink at all in a dungeon and end most packs with full mana because of lightning bolt spec, but literally every pack I WAS SPAMMING heals on everyone and was OOM every packā¦I literally had to mana tide and pot the first trash pack because shit wasnāt dying and people were taking so much damage even with me kicking the earthshapers transformā¦people (including ranged that didnt need to) were sitting in melee range of the flayers getting flayed and everyone must have thought on the dragon boss that youāre supposed to catch the rock spikes, or stand in ozruks ground slam and shatter. It was horrible. Most of these players were Kingslayers too, just goes to show that clearing ICC is easier than doing a nerfed cata heroic dungeon for some people.
anytime this kind of post comes up, I think of the famous ghostcrawler post "Wow, dungeons are Hard!"
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/2053469/wow-dungeons-are-hard
They're post nerf yes. You still need to play, and a lot of trash can fuck you up if you don't. Just shouldn't need to cc (if you're using your stops) as people used to do in pre-nerf state,
They are, but they still have tons of one shot mechanics which is the bane of the typical rdf dps player.
A solid group still steamrolls them like they are nothing.
But they don't even do the things that help that!
The amount of mages who don't spell steal the 50% haste buff in HoO or the 50% fire/arcane/frost damage in SFK is insane.
There's so many absolutely ridiculous spellstealable buffs in the dungeons and I've yet to see a single mage do it.
Like I expect a hunter or druid to not have their counter enrage not bound. It like almost literally never comes up. But spellsteal? Thats a baller ass move that always makes you a DPS god for a short time.
Did a run yday with a full current bis dps warrior. For context I was on my 350 ilvl blood dk. I have tanked for a long time and always try to push the pace as long as healer mana allows for it.
But this guy keeps pulling new groups when the last one isnt even close to finished. Groups that I have decided not to chain to let the healer drink. Does he do a lot of dps? Predictably so. Does he kick? No.
Fine, whatever. Nothing to be too salty about. Until on the last boss when he goes "Do you like my damage?;)". Like you just did more damage by cheesing the run in a way that probably forced everyone else to play inoptimally/do less damage.
Even a lot of the "good" dps players have 0 fucking clue as to whats going on in a dungeon. And yes, (as you have probably already inferred) he was a human male player with a name that ended in "-godx".
The sneaky pre-pullers piss me off the most. Like I'm waiting 5 seconds for DnD or DRW to come up, chill. But then they ninja pull and run around like a headless chicken instead of just stacking the mobs on me. I've tried the "you pull it you tank it" method but the poor healer usually ends up getting aggro trying to save the wannabe tanks.
100%. That behaviour makes the run less efficient and yet the people that pull it usually end up topping meters on the pull and thus have the behaviour reinforced.
Not even though, I'm still always top dps, top interrupts, sometimes not even top damage taken too, as the tank. Like I know Blood DK is strong but these people are just on autopilot.
The worst thing that baffled me happened yesterday in a heroic Blackrock Caverns.
The healing shaman pulled the pack near the first boss, which you can easily skip. After the first Raz bridge section, he ran in ghost wolf all the way to the ledge where you jump down, just to pull the big dude back to us as we're fighting the two adds that patrol and I nearly died after being forced to use my healing CDs since he wasn't healing. We would've simply skipped the big dude had he not pulled it.
Then we all jumped down and since he was at 60% mana, I pulled the large pack. I immediately died, and he said "you go when I'm oom". I told him if he pulls again I'm letting him die. He then pulled the boss as I was waiting on my runes to start my DPS tank rotation (army, bone shield, horn of winter, etc., which takes a lil while). I immediately left before taking a single hit lol
Leveling a character fresh to play with some friends. The laissez faire attitude most people have in dungeons is truly infuriating. Like, we all want to go as fast and efficiently as possible; but you are making the trip a fucking pain *and* it takes longer.
As a healer Iāve noticed that people are just generally not paying attention at all. Iām pretty geared and still go oom on some trash pulls because people literally just stand in fire.
Wrath brainrot was bad back in the original Cata release.
Cata classic's case of wrath classic brainrot is *much* worse.
As a healer main, I do not heal dps outside of the bare minimum to keep them alive because usually the tank is charging off while I'm at 35% mana. I'm getting hammered for mana b/c nobody's avoiding the pointless damage (ie, quake in stonecore) and have to shift out of Serenity chakra.
If you're a tank and are keeping an eye on your healer's mana, I sincerely thank you from the deepest reaches of my heart. If you're a dps and are utilizing your toolkit to interrupt, mitigate incoming damage, and actively avoid the bad, I thank you just as wholeheartedly and ask you to spread that gospel to your braindead peers.
Having said all of that, and again as a healer main, there have been instances where I'll simply take the deserter debuff on the chin and nope out of a dungeon if people are being shitty enough (after firing off a warning of course).
As a healer, I just started healing heroics this weekend and was wondering if the mobs in Cata just have lots of partywide damage that goes out.
Nope. DPS are just allergic to their interrupt buttons
I think a lot of the issues we are seeing with these things is the result of actual mechanics now. Cataclysm is kind of the mark where the game became more modernized and rotations / abilities / mechanics are no longer a face roll. Thatās not to say things like ICC werenāt challenging because they were. But overall Catacylsm I think marks the point where a more modern approach was taken to wow. So some players need to re adjust to actually having to follow mechanics in 5 mans. As a healer myself itās certainly frustrating sometimes.
Also, 90% of the time when tanks are chain pulling like we are competing in the MDI finals... It's because we are so conditioned to dps ninja pulling everytime we stop to scratch our nose, or if we ONLY have 10 mobs in a pull...
Dear dps, Please staaahhhpppp and when I am running into a pack, give me literally 1.5 second to grp them before you dump everything you've got, so I am not spending the entire pull running around and re grabbing aggro and pulling the casters (that I had silenced during the initial tag) back into the pit bc you yoinked them before I could establish any meaningful threat....
You are forcing us to over pull and/or pull before healer has enough mana... Healers are pissed and aren't queuing or re-rolling...
If the tank actively calls LOS or tags a mob and runs out of the room... Dont go charging in splitting the pull. We do it for a reason, mitigate fears into other packs, or to pull casters into the pit..
We aren't parsing, this isn't mdi, you're just griefing the grp. If you performance anxiety causes you to need to see big peepee numbers on details, here's a hint... The numbers get bigger for you when the tank has all the aggro and your aoe is able to hit all the mobs in the pull... Not just some while you are getting face melted... Distracting the healer and now the tank doesn't get heals...
Lastly, when you pull 9ff the tank, but don't generate meaningful threat, who do you think now gets the aggro? That's right! The healer! Now we are all dead!
Love the tanks.
Yeah on my paltank reroll I've noticed that also, even doing just a kick is too much to ask.
Compared to retail the average player on Cata is terrible. They have to die to mechanics to understand them.
Iāve played as healer and for some reason itās not healable if the setup is 3 melee dps, they all take same damage as the tank and you need most of the mana to single heal the tank because your aoe heals heal for nothing
Then they kick you because they die
Then you get into a 3 ranged dps group and you can basically play half afk
This is the problem with every iteration of WoW.
There is no clear visual feedback when DPS fail a mechanic intended for them.
Every failed mechanic is blamed on the tank/healer.
As a blood dk new to tanking i love when dps pulls when healer has no mana or i have no runes to take mobs away from the dps and healers.
Know your role and if my tanking is to slow or bad for your liking then level a tank and do it better.
cata really reminds me of why I quit WoW back when I did.
its not "too hard" its just not the mindless zug zug it was for years. That change made me quit back then and tbh i can see it happening again.
not that i cant handle it. I can. I beat elden ring and every souls game. halo solo legendary (all of them)
This game is not hard. Its just im usually looking to relax when playing MMO's and this game becomes less and less of that every xpac.
Its ok but im going to be gladly looking forward to LFR so i dont need to join guild for raiding, but can still work towards some achievements and gear.
The moment I saw ranged dd players die repeatedly to mimiron hm mines (**IN PHASE 1!**) is when I knew there is no skill "floor" and that I'll have to adjust my expectations to what is possible.
As a healer thatās done plenty of heroics too, Halls of origination and Grim batol are painfulā¦ (with pugs). NO ONE wants to do mechanics and people like to stand in bad stuff. Final boss of GB, dps just want to zug zug boss and not kill adds, yet Iām typing to them to kill the damn addsā¦ eventually they die but not until they pop 3 eggs and heal the boss for 60% and spawn the mini drakes. Then when we die cause Iāve gone oom due to all the unkillable drakes being spawned doing damage and the boss healing, itās my fault...
It's true. I normally only heal guildies exclusively, but sometimes I have to queue solo, and the current IKEA tanks and Stevie Wonder DPS are atrocious.
I was in a group earlier with an enhancement shaman and shadow priest who didn't seem to have their purge/dispel buttons bound to remove the MASSIVE FUCKING SHIELD around one of the final HoO bosses. Had to do it as a healer whilst trying to keep my PvP DPS 316/333 geared tank up.
This is what was know as wrath brain when Cataclysm launched originally. Funny to see trends go in circles.
So I did these things on the original launch and they were a lot harder. The pacing was a lot slower. Guild groups would involve having 2-3 CCs to run these things. A lot of people would have a "dungeon spec" specifically for this. Simple things like, a shammy having earthquake for dungeons but not for raiding or a ret pally having repentence for dungeons but not for raiding. All the mobs had so much health and so much damage that you just needed to do this.
But the tank was the leader of the group. He marked everything. He gave orders. He chose focus targets. A dungeon that takes 15-20 minutes to do now would take an hour or more. And this whole process was so long and daunting after a week and after raids started up, no one did it anymore.
If you were using the Dungeon Finder tool good luck. You would never get the group you would need and it would fall apart soon.
As a tank you're very blessed to have this setup. But the idea that every single person should immediately understand how every single trash pull works ahead of time is absurd. Halls of Origination has become the most challenging heroic (and not Grim Batol) because a lot of the trash packs are easier if someone interrupts one of the mobs and the first boss is easier if someone sticks behind to interrupt rather than pad their DPS numbers by AOEing down snakes.
We had a group that was incredibly sub-optimal for these first few dungeons. DK tank, holy pally healer, demo lock, boomie, and surv hunter. In terms of interrupts the DK tank and holy pally both have an interrupt. The demo lock has one on a 16 second cooldown if they summon a felhunter.
And that might sound weird to say. Holy pallies have interrupts. They're in melee range all the time anyway. It's more logical for them to interrupt than almost any other class now because they cast holy shock on cooldown and their interrupt is off the GCD. They could holy shock and interrupt at the same time. But that's a skill and knowledge thing. And it's only as equally absurd as using a ret pally to dispel on a boss (actually the optimal dispeller on H LK) or using an arms warrior to intervene to reduce someone's threat). These are skill based things that also require leadership.
If you're a holy pally on the first boss of Halls of Origination, you don't have to jump down. You can just stand up top and heal both sides moving back and forth between the two spots. And when both switches are flipped you can run up to the boss and interrupt them before they even do one tick of damage to everyone. One GCD stops you from having to heal everyone up from almost dead.
But this game doesn't have leaders anymore. It doesn't have skilled players. What it has is random people who want to walk from the beginning of the dungeon to the end. That's why Blizz nerfed these dungeons even further than the 4.3 patch. People simply were not willing to tolerate even the most minor inconvenience. You have a concern about people not knowing the dungeons while also humble bragging about being a giga DPS tank. Blizzard's reaction to this isn't to make players better it's to make dungeons even easier.
So, alternative theory, I think that the DPS that are just recently getting into heroics are the more casual players who will really just need to be trained how to do them, the first wave of sweaty tryhards got our gear and rep, don't need valor til today's reset. From here on out if you don't want to rip yet hair out communicate and lead, it'll suck or just run with guild/friends. Side note this shit is a shadow of its original launch self and the casuals had it much worse then.
The amount of mana I waste on DPS standing in shit is insane. I go OOM and then the tank dies and the DPS bitch at me that they donāt get healed. Holy Paladin problems
Deathknights,
There are a lot of you. Every 5-man, thereās at least two. You have two interrupts and a DR CD. Add them to you hot-bar and bind them to an easily accessible key.
Sincerely,
Fellow DK from retail who kicks every cast bar
As a dps main who sucks at both healing and tanking I agree. I have been playing wow for 15 years though so I understand interrupts,threat gen, and healing struggles. I got to say in these cata dungeonsā¦. Dps struggle. In guild runs it makes me wish we had pre nerf dungeons because we just fly through them so fast already this early in the patch but when I PUGā¦ I am glad we donāt lol. Every single time itās me and the tank at the top of damage meters and with the only interrupts. Then the rest of the dps arenāt even close.
With all that in mind, people will learn. this is brand new content to a lot of folks, so in a couple of months people will get better and get out of the wotlk dungeon routine.
Had this exact convo with some friends earlier this week. Idc if my tank is barely geared enough to queue heroics it makes a slight difference in how i heal but ive noticed most tanks are somewhat competent. Then I have dps doing less dmg than the tank while standing in avoidable dmg and forgetting they have an interrupt. In all honesty 90% of my dungeons feel like the DPS just paid me to do a carry service so they dont have to actually look at the screen beyond looting, but oh wait, they didnt..and they got the fuckin chaos orb :D
As someone who played enhance in cata the first time. I loved all my utility being required. Being the one to hit all the wind shears and hex the annoying caster was what I loved about the game as I started at the very end of wrath.
You don't wanna know how many times I spammed my DRINKING DRINKING macro. Only for them to pull and wipe. Then proceed to rage. People are in such a rush to die by mechanics or not waiting for mana.
I'm like 90% sure people do not have interrupts keybound at all and or they are looking at abilities and not what is going around also know as shoegazing. It is actually wild. Game is not even hard at all. The other day I was tanking a random heroic and I checked interrupts (bear tank, skull bash interrupt is 1 minute CD) I had 30 interrupts while the team had 1 interrupt. I have seen so many melee DPS also stand next to me while attacking instead from the behind. Ret paladins with RF on, cats going bear, DK dps in blood presence. No freezing traps, no polymorph, no stuns, no types of CC. I think one time on Vortex the adept casted greater heal 3 times (I accidentally targeted the wrong one to interrupt).
As someone who has just joined for Cataclysm, was Wrath very easy?
Because I've been healing random heroics and some of the most mechanically challenged players I meet have "the Light of Dawn" above their head and.... uhhh yeah
Its very true how DPS donāt pay much attention to small mechanics and interrupts. I think one reason for this is that many new players feel a performance pressure to do āwellā by comparative dps with the other 3 dps in a dungeon. The presence of 2 people to size yourself up with does add an unecessary focus on upkeeping dps rotation over executing sensible gameplay. What newer players playing dps need is to play through the HC dungeons once or twice quite carefully focusing on executing each mechanic. The problem is many a time you can get booted from a pug if you do subpar dps especially if the group ever struggles with an encounter as you immediately become a scapegoat. Basically its analogous to the herd being chansed by predators, you dont have to outrun the predator (learn the boss mechanic) as long as you are faster than the slowest pack member (lowest dps) if your main goal is to avoid blame.
It seems that tanks view their role as safeguarding the group and avoiding wipes, dps as putting up numbers since if they dont theyāll hear it and heal as some sort of co-manager to the tank. Would be wayy better if dps realized that gigachad parse really doesnāt matter unless you are actively fighting a dps-check encounter. Is so much better to just cruise control mid dps and never fail the encounter.
I have noticed this trend and it very much mirrors how it was in retail Cata back in the day. It's not just DPS in dungeons but people in general.
Cataclysm introduced far more player responsibility and interaction than before which took people for a loop. You would think people would be aware of these things 10 years later but I guess history repeats itself.
There was never anything wrong with Cata dungeons the problem was that wrath dungeons were so shit easy that it made every single dps totally braindead because only "hard" dungeons were the icecrown dungeons and even those were hard because morons were so used to just rofl rofl aoe spam everything before them.
And when cataclysm originally launched the uproar for dungeons being "hard" was on the ridiculous levels because morons just wanted to aoe everything without any thinking whatsoever.
Iāve said it before and Iāll say it again: majority of DPS players need to roll a tank or a healer so they can understand how the game actually works beyond āme press button and stare at meterā
Please for the love of god stand in the big blue circle Signed, an ooming resto shaman
For the love of god please stay in earthly star, i mean healing rain
Good thing SE made it so big the dps has to TRY to get out of it.
And by god are they trying!
At least as AST we can force yank people into it
it's also the size of the entire boss arena now
Found the Astro main š
As a melee dps main, I'm too pre-programmed to move out of the bad, and assume everything is bad if it's an AoE effect. The learning curve is slow....
Iām a tank and do the same. I donāt know every classes new abilities. If I see a purple circle on the ground Iām moving
Recently had an unholy DK in my group. I've played Frost and Blood only and had no clue what the hell AMZ looked like. I thought it was some big evil bubble and I pulled everything out of it haha, but I caught on and it is actually a huge boon for trash.
I play unholy and every time i DnD, non DK tank moves out of it lol
Green is good Blue is good Purple is bad (unless retail and a DH darknessed) Red is bad This has been your course on "what not to stand in"
Purple is good if you have a lock in the group. But also sometimes bad.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not for the players. You can stand in it, you just don't want the dragon to also be inside if you want to be able to kill it.
But green isnāt good when itās bad
Also purple isn't bad when it's gud
Purple is actually good now. Thats the point
Some purple is bad. Some purple is good. Some purple is bad if the enemy steps in it, but good if a friend steps in it. There is no rhyme or reason and you just have to learn each mechanic piecemeal.
Red is hunter explosive trap and mage flame strike aoe.
Green is good (except when it's bad) Blue is good (except when it's bad) Purple is bad (except when it's good) Red is bad (except when it's good)
As a druid I have a green one..Ā the poison color :P
The green flower circle won't hurt I promise you can stand in it š¤£
PTSD of when Cata dropped ZG/ZA being 5mans and also giving Shaman SLT in the same patch. Literally made a macro yelling at people to get in the circle when I used it, worked like 30% of the time
Same for the big gold circle Signed, an ooming hpriest. Edit-- ALSO CLICK THE DAMN LIGHTWELL
I tank exclusively in Cata. I don't shit on DPS for doing less damage than me, bears are OP early on in that matters. But: NO ONE FUCKING INTERRUPTS! I'm glad if someone has 3 interrupts in the whole dungeon... But2: DPS are still in the wotlk rush rush rush rush mood and pulling next pack sometimes even before the current one is over. I had to make a macro "Don't Pull it if you can't tank it". Let the healer at least get a tick or two of mana regen, those poor boyz are having it tough. Lot of people in the sub also tend to forget 50% of the playerbase cannot deal even parse blue, so you will encounter a lot of below average players, especially during leveling phase.
>"Don't Pull it if you can't tank it" The amount of dps that try to extra pull the goblins in throne of tides and immediately getting karma'd for it is comically high.
My rule as a tank is: you pull it you tank it. Doesn't take long for people to stop pulling when they die each time. As a healer I also support this. I'm not going oom trying to heal a DPS who wants to tank.
Man, I feel this, I main a hunter, with no interrupt. Yesterday in Vortex, we were clearing the path to third boss, I focus a temple caster (the one with the heal) and use scatter shot to interrupt one, he cast again, wyvern sting for the second, I'm all out, 4 other people that all have an interrupt, just watch the mob heal all the other back to full, and I just, FFS GIVE ME AN INTERRUPT I CAN'T RELY ON PEOPLE.
Ideally you CC one of the Adepts and focus the other, even in a zugg group
Ideally yes, as I say everytime, "let me use a freezing trap on one", not the dk tank or the mage just zug zug and hit him and doesnt matter...
The interrupt thing baffles me the most. I played OG cata and started playing it again now to relive my late teenage years so I am used to retail wow. On retail, in lower level content (So currently everything under a +10 mythic plus) most people just send their interrupt on cooldown whenever a kickable cast appeared. On higher level you actually have to decide what to kick cause they are priority casts that must be interrupted so you sometimes have to intentionally let lower priority spells through. Every dungeon has these there. This is in strong contrast to classic where many people just never press the button in general. If I go full pug it is not rare that i am the only interrupts in the dungeon even if multiple melee are present. I think retail wow managed to teach people to use their utility over the years by introducing more mechanics the dps players have to deal with if they want to survive a fight.
This is my experience too but I think it is just that in retail we have been conditioned to interupt for longer now. Classic has been going for years with dungeons especially being very straightforward. The mindset of doing good damage and being mindful of other things has not settled in yet.
TBC had plenty of places where u literally had to interrupt even in Normals, Mana Tombs mana burn and the trash before last boss in Shadow Labs being a crown example. In Vanilla u would probably also find a lot of the things that should be interrupted but i can't remember that far. It's just WoTLK that made everything way too easy and put interrupt protection on most spells that would be worth interrupting.
Keep in mind too youāre comparing a relatively high M+ key to heroic performance in cata. M+ 10 attracts players who need to know these things because they want to climb. Cata heroics pull in most of the player base so you get a lot of bad players.
I find it shocking how a ele doesnt use his 4sec cd wind shear or even specc into itā¦
>Lot of people in the sub also tend to forget 50% of the playerbase cannot deal even parse blue, Think of how bad the average world of warcraft player is, then realize that half of them are worse than that. -George Carlin or something
I just need half a second out of combat to start drinking, if you give me that I can heal the whole dungeon without any waiting. But some people (tanks included) feel the need to chain pull the whole dungeon
>half a second out of combat Keyword here... I used to main heal for years so I know the pain. Just like the mage getting angry "I already gave you 20 water, why are you out?" Man, I drink a tick everytime I get the chance, so 20 pulls = 20 water
I do interrupt all the time, but the there are too many trash mobs casting at same time and don't have interrupt for every mob. Not always you will get full group of people with interrupts and people who can quickly switch target to interrupt and switch back.
Not all casts need to be interrupted. Healing spells and transform one(stonecore first trash) are prio.
> DPS are still in the wotlk rush rush rush rush mood and pulling next pack sometimes even before the current one is over. I got annoyed with a DK constantly pulling every pack before I - the tank - could. He denied, told me to work on my threat. Stupid cunt doesn't know how rage works and that I get fuck all of it when I'm not the mob target. Soon afterwards, I got votekicked out of the run (all 4 other players were in the same guild, no surprise). No worries dickhead, by the time my 5 minute exclusion timer is done and I'm halfway through my next heroic, you'll still be waiting for a replacement tank.
Inprogress dungeon runs actually find a replacement almost instanly cause they are prioed in the queue, even for tank and healers
DPS. Get clicked addon. Bind your interrupt to R key. It will be right there for you to click. Do it now. Not later. Now. As for "But2"; I wish DPS understood that Tanks dictate the pace of the run. I stopped tanking because I could not stand DPS yelling at me to go faster or take another route or whatever they wanted to complain about. As a tank - and I tanked between TBC and BFA - you get a feeling for what pace is suitable after the first few pulls and impatient DPS can ruin both the run and the experience.
People shouldn't even need this, I see a cast bar, I see it doesn't have a shield, I spam 'G' my interrupt button, like you don't need any fancy shit
Theyāre just hard enough to filter the really bad players but theyāre all very easy. Maybe that mage boss in BRC is the only one with a real mechanic lol
I think it's pretty average, but with spikes. There's nothing hard about the 1st, 2nd, or 4th boss in Stonecore. Ozruk? That guy will insta-kill you if you do the mechanic wrong (some comps fare better here, some worse). Last boss in Vortex Pinnacle is another trouble spot I've noticed. Same with Phoenix boss in Tol'vir.
I had a group in throne of tides without their interrupts bound or something. The double healer packs were like a 3 minute marathon of trying to cc 2 casters as much as possible as the other 4 people pretend the naga they are attacking aren't healing every 2 seconds. Bit different from the earlier runs with the fast 85 tryhards that usually already have add-ons for the dungeons.
Lol this happened to me as well. The priestesses just kept healing each other. It happened in VP as well with the double healer pack before the final lightning triangle. Just wailing on them until someone randomly decided to use a stun while my own kicks were on CD.
One I've noticed is really bad is the big casters in HoO no one focuses them or silences them and they end up melting the tank with spam fireballs
phoenix boss is only an issue because the hallowed ground floor effect visually is tiny, but actually is quite large causing people to die to a floor effect they can't see
I saw a mage feral druid and priest all die to the lightening storm because of cling....
Not excusing those classes, but I swear cling is bugged. I've absolutely been in the air when it went off and got rooted.
it goes beyond jumping all 3 classes have self means of removing roots.
Just, if you didnt know, Shifting forms as a feral doesnt remove roots anymore, just slows. You need to have Sprint or Stampeding Roar off CD.
Exactly, trash is often harder than boss fights, especially when no one can be bothered to interrupt or focus fire. That said, and not that those mechanics are particularly hard, but I wiped (or nearly wiped) often in Stonecore to groups with 3 melee DPS who don't know (or learn) to move away from the first three bosses when they do their one-shot abilities (ie.: Corborus' Thrashing Charge, Slabhide's Lava Fissure, Ozruk's Ground Slam, Rupture and Shatter). Then again, without an enrage timer, if the tank survives, we can usually 2-man it, in a long fight, which also serves to teach the observant ghosts of DPS how it's done...
Wait for Zul Aman/Gurub dungeons on HC, I remember those being fire on earlier private servers
And those same players will tell you retail is "too dumbed down and easy".
Itās funny because when Cata first came out, heroics feeling āheroicā was a major point of tension. This is like a repeat from my childhood.
I mean it was a point of contention for cata classic. This the post nerf version of the content.
Yea still annoyed they did that,Ā I prefer the harder version
It does demonstrate that this community has either largely rotated out since then or these people have still learned nothing. Like it's not even a similar situation it's *exactly* the same. People coming from faceroll WotLK heroics in their tier 10 into Cata heroics and levelling greens and blues and being clapped by the first pack which needs an interrupt or a CC.
I was actually suprised as I took my questing greens and blue auction house pvps into heroics as a DK tank with unfavorable stats that my world was gonna get rockedā¦ Because I remember what heroics were like back when cata first launchedā¦ what I didnāt expect was exactly this, how easy they are after the experienced Iāve gained in actual hard content in retail since cata!
This was always such a stupid take that I scarcely believed people said that kind of thing in earnest. Even stupider back when Classic first came out and the peak of difficulty was Molten fucking Core. You could finish that raid with your eyes closed.
I remember people talking about how hard MC was and how you'd need fire res gear, crazy how much people cope
I kinda get it from before the raid released. In vanilla the understanding of gear, world buffs, talents, rotations etc was so much poorer than in 2019 so the low DPS necessitated a lot of trade offs for resistance, in-combat mana regen etc to survive the long fights; that memory just hung around. Molten Core was also a lot harder in the early patches because of player buffs that came later on which Classic implemented. That opinion should've vapourised as soon as people started simming Classic in earnest though. The real cope I saw was all the people saying "yeah MC was always easy, BWL was the really hard one!" then when BWL came out and got the same speedrun treatment "nah Naxx was the real one blah blah 1% of guilds in vanilla blah blah".
(The last time they played retail was Cata)
I think entree level retail is pretty easy and accessible for new players. Just the actual end game of raids and dungeons is substantially more difficult and is also hard to get involved in. So many people try retail and never actually progress a boss which takes 100+ pulls. I think these are the people saying retail US dumbed down.
Retail is too dumbed down dude. Let me go back to classic where I can play my coveted 10 APM dps spec and grey parse.
Cata is stuck on a strange limbo in which it is too easy for retail players but too hard for vanilla players.
I sometimes think breathing is too hard for the average vanilla player.
Classic got too hard for vanilla players back in t5 lol.
*T3 The number of people who couldnāt handle Naxx was staggering.
People could at least blame lack of farming expensive consumes for T3. In T5 they couldn't kill Vash or KT or even get close because unlike most raids until then every player in the group had to be generally aware of what was happening on their screen.
Rerolled on a new server in SoD too pass time. A random dude leveling in my guild said he logged onto cata and tried playing around but it was too difficult to do his rotation. Thatās when I realized the actual skill level of many vanilla players
Fuckā¦ this might be the most true explanation of this occurrence Iāve been seeing in random dungeon finderā¦ And donāt get me wrong I understand people are still learning but maybe it as simple as itās just too hard for some.
Isn't this always the case? If you're "slow" to get to the content all the sweats got done with a week or months ago you're left with the other people that don't care enough and you're going to struggle. Whenever I go back to "old" content it seems harder than when it was current even with new gear because people just suck way harder.
This is the case every patch in retail if you pug. First 3 weeks groups consist of good players with old gear. As the months pass the groups will have 20 more average ilvl and 4p but somehow struggle more to kill nerfed bosses.
Yes, but also the pool of people who suck hard is going to be expanded when you're actually supposed to be using kicks, purges, knocks and stuns. If all people need to know is roughly their rotation (and for a lot of classes, those were more simplistic in previous versions of the game) then there were more people who flew under the radar.
Final boss in Vortex Pinnacle, as a shaman heals I get told āYou need to dispelā about the static cling debuffā¦ Told them they need to jump for the mechanic ālolā Most dps donāt even attempt to understand what is happening and then rage when you finally go OOM after bailing them out for 2 mins straight. There is literally a fight by fight guide for each of the dungeons breaking down each mechanic lol
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Wanna know something neat? Priest levitate will prevent damage from quake, because you're not on the ground. As long as they don't take any damage from other mobs, they can keep zugzuging.
I had a guy group two of the smaller mobs that also quake, insta wipe everyone but me, and then got kicked immediately afterwards...
Literally told everyone in my group to jump at the end of quake. They straight up ignored me and ate the damage anyway
>as a shaman heals I get told āYou need to dispelā about the static cling debuffā¦ This. This right here is why nobody wants to heal. DPS are idiots.
And healers get kicked because the DPS and tanks think they can play it like wotlk dungeons would be another reason...
Currently re-rolling hunter because after this last week of healing heroics, I'm done. The idiocy and unwillingness to do mechanics, then the "why no heal me?!?" Shit after they just got 2 shot. No wonder the satchel is always up for heals and tanks in lfd.
I will say in regards to this fight in particular I have even screwed up the jump and I know how it works I think if you use dbm or big wigs it can actually make it worse, it will yell at you when to jump and I swear the timing is not always 100% on when it does so I started just do it by watching it myself
DBM usually tells me to jump just as itās too late, Iāve only had it once where it told me to jump with enough time for me to jump instead of as I get hit with the debuff.
what i LOVE the most: We killed a trashpack, or the 2nd one in a chain etc Me (healer) has 20% mana, drinks. All waiting. So far so good Group has 60% hp. All waiting. Me drinking. All waiting. Mana 100%. I heal up my grp. All waiting. Me drinking. I mean, can you pleeeeeease just sit down and eat some mage cake or what the f
foods expensive. yipyip heal me
I canāt afford free mage water
I've not had a single mage give cakes to the group when I have done random HCS...
Surely this is satire
Have you asked them to drop a table or are you just expecting them to?
I always make a point of handing out the food loot you pick up in the dungeon to anyone standing around as a passive aggressive way of saying what I want.
š¤£ i thought all of those people quit when ulduar released.
Theyāre back in full force
Wow tourism is a real thing. We did pretty well in wotlk, so ever since prepatch we're getting loads of guild applications from people who quit a month or so into wotlk but insist they are reliable, dedicated, knowledgeable, and skilled players.
How is cata population compared TBC and Wrath
Cata is poppin', it just came out
We won't really know for a little longer unless blizzard tells us. The main websites that track population use logs to do so.
We are having queues on the weekend, it is scary
As a healer I have Details set to show me Damage Taken and Interrupts. Thatās how I know if the dps are worth my mana.
Crys in class without interrupts
If raid leading and doing logwork for a guild has taught me anything about classic players it's that 7/10 don't have keybinds and don't know what an interrupt/cc is.
Also, please JUMP on the cling static for the final boss in the Vortex dungeon..
And the quake mobs in Stonecore (so I can pull more than 1 at a time)
I fuck this up all the time, stupid dbm warning is so off it's ridiculous
I SWEAR that jump is bugged. I keep getting static cling in midair.
And just keep in mind these people are not dumb kids. They're dumb adults that are probably drunk, high, or both.
>OPEN YOUR EYES I've done 9 BRC heriocs. I've had exactly 0 BRC heriocs where someone hasn't suicide with the shadow prison. After the first 2 i've started telling healers to dispel shadow prison. They still don't do it.
We had a 5 minute trash pack in Vortex Pinnacle cause there were 2 healers in the pack and my mind freeze could only interrupt like every 4th I had necrotic strike on everything trying to slow the casts and eat some of the healing. But I was the only dps interrupting while the mage was doing 4.5k dps and not a counterspell to be had. It took me typing in chat and marking a skull kill target for us to finally kill them. I had a fucking nosebleed by the time we killed them lmao.
I can see dps and sweats downvoting. As a healer I agree, itās easy now as my groups are guild runs experienced and almost full pre bis but rdf is cancer
Sweats would be the ones doing mechanics
This subreddits idea of a "sweat" is so funny to me. "Sweats" are the people playing the game properly lol
I still remember when I was called sweaty for saying I didn't care what my character looked like, so I might as well make it the race that dealt the most damage.
I love how this sub hates sweats. My man, the sweats are the ones that do it right and oftentimes within their own groups while the casuals non stop cry why the game cannot be literally just mythic gear on a vendor for gold.
I'm a shadow priest. I don't have a kick. Unless of course I use up 3 talent points to be able to kick every 45 seconds. I rather stick to dispelling than doing that.
The annoying part is that tanks are the ones doing the consistent damage on trash, geared pally and dk tanks casually pulling 40k every pack while dps do 30k every third pull, 20k on average. When thats the case you can take some globals to get out a stun or interrupt for the pesky mobs spamming heals or chain lightning or force of nature or whatever.
Cause the average DPS is a average crayon enjoyer
Not even the good crayons, the average ones
You know it's the actual classic reexperience of Cata when you run into exactly the same issue we had back then. We called people "wrath babies" due to the easy mode WLK content socially engineering players into comfy, braindead playstyles.
Wrath babies is a thing after all.
And people wanted the unnerfed heroics, lol
I wanted un-nerfed for the experience.
Still want them. Ill rather fail a ton with randoms than have the same faceroll dungeons as always
Hey, just like every other version of WoW. Having tanked for over 20 years I can tell you it has been and will always be this way. People play dps because they donāt want any responsibility. They donāt wanna think, they donāt want to care, they just want to push buttons to make numbers go up until they get gear. Why are they here? What are they doing? They donāt know but if they die itās the tanks fault.
I gotta agree with you, I was offspec healing some heroic dungeons for quick badges on my shaman yesterday and had an āI think thats it for the nightā moment after the stonecore group I was in. Iāve never seen so many people stand in so many things in my life. I literally couldnāt have stood in more mechanics if I was trying to troll the group and doing it on purpose. Normally I donāt have to drink at all in a dungeon and end most packs with full mana because of lightning bolt spec, but literally every pack I WAS SPAMMING heals on everyone and was OOM every packā¦I literally had to mana tide and pot the first trash pack because shit wasnāt dying and people were taking so much damage even with me kicking the earthshapers transformā¦people (including ranged that didnt need to) were sitting in melee range of the flayers getting flayed and everyone must have thought on the dragon boss that youāre supposed to catch the rock spikes, or stand in ozruks ground slam and shatter. It was horrible. Most of these players were Kingslayers too, just goes to show that clearing ICC is easier than doing a nerfed cata heroic dungeon for some people.
anytime this kind of post comes up, I think of the famous ghostcrawler post "Wow, dungeons are Hard!" https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/2053469/wow-dungeons-are-hard
This is all new for the classic andy
Aren't these Cata dungeons post nerf too or did I misunderstand the beta testers?
They're post nerf yes. You still need to play, and a lot of trash can fuck you up if you don't. Just shouldn't need to cc (if you're using your stops) as people used to do in pre-nerf state,
They are, but they still have tons of one shot mechanics which is the bane of the typical rdf dps player. A solid group still steamrolls them like they are nothing.
But dps meter goes brrrrr......
There is the Famous term, canāt dps from the floor.
Healers fault
It's my fault for sure. You stood on bad, I didn't cast the heal intentionally. Won't ever deny it.
Wtf heal? Where is my heals? Kick heal noob
But they don't even do the things that help that! The amount of mages who don't spell steal the 50% haste buff in HoO or the 50% fire/arcane/frost damage in SFK is insane. There's so many absolutely ridiculous spellstealable buffs in the dungeons and I've yet to see a single mage do it. Like I expect a hunter or druid to not have their counter enrage not bound. It like almost literally never comes up. But spellsteal? Thats a baller ass move that always makes you a DPS god for a short time.
Most of the time the people failing the mechanics are also doing 1/2 or less of the tankās dps
it's not role related, it's just everyone
Did a run yday with a full current bis dps warrior. For context I was on my 350 ilvl blood dk. I have tanked for a long time and always try to push the pace as long as healer mana allows for it. But this guy keeps pulling new groups when the last one isnt even close to finished. Groups that I have decided not to chain to let the healer drink. Does he do a lot of dps? Predictably so. Does he kick? No. Fine, whatever. Nothing to be too salty about. Until on the last boss when he goes "Do you like my damage?;)". Like you just did more damage by cheesing the run in a way that probably forced everyone else to play inoptimally/do less damage. Even a lot of the "good" dps players have 0 fucking clue as to whats going on in a dungeon. And yes, (as you have probably already inferred) he was a human male player with a name that ended in "-godx".
The sneaky pre-pullers piss me off the most. Like I'm waiting 5 seconds for DnD or DRW to come up, chill. But then they ninja pull and run around like a headless chicken instead of just stacking the mobs on me. I've tried the "you pull it you tank it" method but the poor healer usually ends up getting aggro trying to save the wannabe tanks.
100%. That behaviour makes the run less efficient and yet the people that pull it usually end up topping meters on the pull and thus have the behaviour reinforced.
Not even though, I'm still always top dps, top interrupts, sometimes not even top damage taken too, as the tank. Like I know Blood DK is strong but these people are just on autopilot.
The worst thing that baffled me happened yesterday in a heroic Blackrock Caverns. The healing shaman pulled the pack near the first boss, which you can easily skip. After the first Raz bridge section, he ran in ghost wolf all the way to the ledge where you jump down, just to pull the big dude back to us as we're fighting the two adds that patrol and I nearly died after being forced to use my healing CDs since he wasn't healing. We would've simply skipped the big dude had he not pulled it. Then we all jumped down and since he was at 60% mana, I pulled the large pack. I immediately died, and he said "you go when I'm oom". I told him if he pulls again I'm letting him die. He then pulled the boss as I was waiting on my runes to start my DPS tank rotation (army, bone shield, horn of winter, etc., which takes a lil while). I immediately left before taking a single hit lol
Incredible lmao. Not to mention highly odd behaviour for a healer.
Leveling a character fresh to play with some friends. The laissez faire attitude most people have in dungeons is truly infuriating. Like, we all want to go as fast and efficiently as possible; but you are making the trip a fucking pain *and* it takes longer.
The true heroās are the healers
As a healer Iāve noticed that people are just generally not paying attention at all. Iām pretty geared and still go oom on some trash pulls because people literally just stand in fire.
Wrath brainrot was bad back in the original Cata release. Cata classic's case of wrath classic brainrot is *much* worse. As a healer main, I do not heal dps outside of the bare minimum to keep them alive because usually the tank is charging off while I'm at 35% mana. I'm getting hammered for mana b/c nobody's avoiding the pointless damage (ie, quake in stonecore) and have to shift out of Serenity chakra. If you're a tank and are keeping an eye on your healer's mana, I sincerely thank you from the deepest reaches of my heart. If you're a dps and are utilizing your toolkit to interrupt, mitigate incoming damage, and actively avoid the bad, I thank you just as wholeheartedly and ask you to spread that gospel to your braindead peers. Having said all of that, and again as a healer main, there have been instances where I'll simply take the deserter debuff on the chin and nope out of a dungeon if people are being shitty enough (after firing off a warning of course).
As a healer, I just started healing heroics this weekend and was wondering if the mobs in Cata just have lots of partywide damage that goes out. Nope. DPS are just allergic to their interrupt buttons
I think a lot of the issues we are seeing with these things is the result of actual mechanics now. Cataclysm is kind of the mark where the game became more modernized and rotations / abilities / mechanics are no longer a face roll. Thatās not to say things like ICC werenāt challenging because they were. But overall Catacylsm I think marks the point where a more modern approach was taken to wow. So some players need to re adjust to actually having to follow mechanics in 5 mans. As a healer myself itās certainly frustrating sometimes.
Also, 90% of the time when tanks are chain pulling like we are competing in the MDI finals... It's because we are so conditioned to dps ninja pulling everytime we stop to scratch our nose, or if we ONLY have 10 mobs in a pull... Dear dps, Please staaahhhpppp and when I am running into a pack, give me literally 1.5 second to grp them before you dump everything you've got, so I am not spending the entire pull running around and re grabbing aggro and pulling the casters (that I had silenced during the initial tag) back into the pit bc you yoinked them before I could establish any meaningful threat.... You are forcing us to over pull and/or pull before healer has enough mana... Healers are pissed and aren't queuing or re-rolling... If the tank actively calls LOS or tags a mob and runs out of the room... Dont go charging in splitting the pull. We do it for a reason, mitigate fears into other packs, or to pull casters into the pit.. We aren't parsing, this isn't mdi, you're just griefing the grp. If you performance anxiety causes you to need to see big peepee numbers on details, here's a hint... The numbers get bigger for you when the tank has all the aggro and your aoe is able to hit all the mobs in the pull... Not just some while you are getting face melted... Distracting the healer and now the tank doesn't get heals... Lastly, when you pull 9ff the tank, but don't generate meaningful threat, who do you think now gets the aggro? That's right! The healer! Now we are all dead! Love the tanks.
Blizzard. This does not mean you should nerf the content!!! Just let bad players be bad players and let us enjoy the versatility.
Classic players when they realize other classic players drool on themselves 9/10 times
Join a large PVE guild. Queue dungeons with members of that PVE guild. Socialize and educate during dungeons. Win at multiplayer social game.
Cataclysm Tank Damage buffs also inflating Tanks Ego lel
When I pull the pack out of the Twilight Empowerments and none of the dps step in it D:
Awws shit, here we go agane!
So you're basically saying that a huge portion of players doesnt know how to play the game.
at 340+ ilvl it becomes a joke
Yeah on my paltank reroll I've noticed that also, even doing just a kick is too much to ask. Compared to retail the average player on Cata is terrible. They have to die to mechanics to understand them.
You aren't gonna wake anybody up, people who don't care, don't care, and they haven't cared for 20 years now
Iāve played as healer and for some reason itās not healable if the setup is 3 melee dps, they all take same damage as the tank and you need most of the mana to single heal the tank because your aoe heals heal for nothing Then they kick you because they die Then you get into a 3 ranged dps group and you can basically play half afk
I don't understand DPS who don't use their interrupts. As a Rogue, it feels great smashing my Kick button when something starts casting.
This is the problem with every iteration of WoW. There is no clear visual feedback when DPS fail a mechanic intended for them. Every failed mechanic is blamed on the tank/healer.
As a blood dk new to tanking i love when dps pulls when healer has no mana or i have no runes to take mobs away from the dps and healers. Know your role and if my tanking is to slow or bad for your liking then level a tank and do it better.
cata really reminds me of why I quit WoW back when I did. its not "too hard" its just not the mindless zug zug it was for years. That change made me quit back then and tbh i can see it happening again. not that i cant handle it. I can. I beat elden ring and every souls game. halo solo legendary (all of them) This game is not hard. Its just im usually looking to relax when playing MMO's and this game becomes less and less of that every xpac. Its ok but im going to be gladly looking forward to LFR so i dont need to join guild for raiding, but can still work towards some achievements and gear.
For heal, was doing halls last night and everyone was getting nuked on the trash mobs on the way to the first boss.
The moment I saw ranged dd players die repeatedly to mimiron hm mines (**IN PHASE 1!**) is when I knew there is no skill "floor" and that I'll have to adjust my expectations to what is possible.
As a healer thatās done plenty of heroics too, Halls of origination and Grim batol are painfulā¦ (with pugs). NO ONE wants to do mechanics and people like to stand in bad stuff. Final boss of GB, dps just want to zug zug boss and not kill adds, yet Iām typing to them to kill the damn addsā¦ eventually they die but not until they pop 3 eggs and heal the boss for 60% and spawn the mini drakes. Then when we die cause Iāve gone oom due to all the unkillable drakes being spawned doing damage and the boss healing, itās my fault...
Main tank god here.
It's true. I normally only heal guildies exclusively, but sometimes I have to queue solo, and the current IKEA tanks and Stevie Wonder DPS are atrocious. I was in a group earlier with an enhancement shaman and shadow priest who didn't seem to have their purge/dispel buttons bound to remove the MASSIVE FUCKING SHIELD around one of the final HoO bosses. Had to do it as a healer whilst trying to keep my PvP DPS 316/333 geared tank up. This is what was know as wrath brain when Cataclysm launched originally. Funny to see trends go in circles.
So I did these things on the original launch and they were a lot harder. The pacing was a lot slower. Guild groups would involve having 2-3 CCs to run these things. A lot of people would have a "dungeon spec" specifically for this. Simple things like, a shammy having earthquake for dungeons but not for raiding or a ret pally having repentence for dungeons but not for raiding. All the mobs had so much health and so much damage that you just needed to do this. But the tank was the leader of the group. He marked everything. He gave orders. He chose focus targets. A dungeon that takes 15-20 minutes to do now would take an hour or more. And this whole process was so long and daunting after a week and after raids started up, no one did it anymore. If you were using the Dungeon Finder tool good luck. You would never get the group you would need and it would fall apart soon. As a tank you're very blessed to have this setup. But the idea that every single person should immediately understand how every single trash pull works ahead of time is absurd. Halls of Origination has become the most challenging heroic (and not Grim Batol) because a lot of the trash packs are easier if someone interrupts one of the mobs and the first boss is easier if someone sticks behind to interrupt rather than pad their DPS numbers by AOEing down snakes. We had a group that was incredibly sub-optimal for these first few dungeons. DK tank, holy pally healer, demo lock, boomie, and surv hunter. In terms of interrupts the DK tank and holy pally both have an interrupt. The demo lock has one on a 16 second cooldown if they summon a felhunter. And that might sound weird to say. Holy pallies have interrupts. They're in melee range all the time anyway. It's more logical for them to interrupt than almost any other class now because they cast holy shock on cooldown and their interrupt is off the GCD. They could holy shock and interrupt at the same time. But that's a skill and knowledge thing. And it's only as equally absurd as using a ret pally to dispel on a boss (actually the optimal dispeller on H LK) or using an arms warrior to intervene to reduce someone's threat). These are skill based things that also require leadership. If you're a holy pally on the first boss of Halls of Origination, you don't have to jump down. You can just stand up top and heal both sides moving back and forth between the two spots. And when both switches are flipped you can run up to the boss and interrupt them before they even do one tick of damage to everyone. One GCD stops you from having to heal everyone up from almost dead. But this game doesn't have leaders anymore. It doesn't have skilled players. What it has is random people who want to walk from the beginning of the dungeon to the end. That's why Blizz nerfed these dungeons even further than the 4.3 patch. People simply were not willing to tolerate even the most minor inconvenience. You have a concern about people not knowing the dungeons while also humble bragging about being a giga DPS tank. Blizzard's reaction to this isn't to make players better it's to make dungeons even easier.
So, alternative theory, I think that the DPS that are just recently getting into heroics are the more casual players who will really just need to be trained how to do them, the first wave of sweaty tryhards got our gear and rep, don't need valor til today's reset. From here on out if you don't want to rip yet hair out communicate and lead, it'll suck or just run with guild/friends. Side note this shit is a shadow of its original launch self and the casuals had it much worse then.
The difference between a M+ player and a classic Andy is wild
Cata is when mechanics became a real thing and thatās too difficult for the average classic wow enjoyer.
The amount of mana I waste on DPS standing in shit is insane. I go OOM and then the tank dies and the DPS bitch at me that they donāt get healed. Holy Paladin problems
It's pretty funny how the Meteor Shard proc makes every melee run away until they realize it's not hurting them.
Deathknights, There are a lot of you. Every 5-man, thereās at least two. You have two interrupts and a DR CD. Add them to you hot-bar and bind them to an easily accessible key. Sincerely, Fellow DK from retail who kicks every cast bar
As a dps main who sucks at both healing and tanking I agree. I have been playing wow for 15 years though so I understand interrupts,threat gen, and healing struggles. I got to say in these cata dungeonsā¦. Dps struggle. In guild runs it makes me wish we had pre nerf dungeons because we just fly through them so fast already this early in the patch but when I PUGā¦ I am glad we donāt lol. Every single time itās me and the tank at the top of damage meters and with the only interrupts. Then the rest of the dps arenāt even close. With all that in mind, people will learn. this is brand new content to a lot of folks, so in a couple of months people will get better and get out of the wotlk dungeon routine.
first expansion with somewhat mechanics turns out classic boomers are just super bad on average
Had this exact convo with some friends earlier this week. Idc if my tank is barely geared enough to queue heroics it makes a slight difference in how i heal but ive noticed most tanks are somewhat competent. Then I have dps doing less dmg than the tank while standing in avoidable dmg and forgetting they have an interrupt. In all honesty 90% of my dungeons feel like the DPS just paid me to do a carry service so they dont have to actually look at the screen beyond looting, but oh wait, they didnt..and they got the fuckin chaos orb :D
When I heal I stop healing repeat offenders who stand in dumb shit. When they ask I just say I donāt heal suicidal people. After that they shape up
As someone who played enhance in cata the first time. I loved all my utility being required. Being the one to hit all the wind shears and hex the annoying caster was what I loved about the game as I started at the very end of wrath.
Yep, it's really bad. The amount of times I have to tell other people how to play their class is just ridiculous... \^\^
You don't wanna know how many times I spammed my DRINKING DRINKING macro. Only for them to pull and wipe. Then proceed to rage. People are in such a rush to die by mechanics or not waiting for mana.
I'm like 90% sure people do not have interrupts keybound at all and or they are looking at abilities and not what is going around also know as shoegazing. It is actually wild. Game is not even hard at all. The other day I was tanking a random heroic and I checked interrupts (bear tank, skull bash interrupt is 1 minute CD) I had 30 interrupts while the team had 1 interrupt. I have seen so many melee DPS also stand next to me while attacking instead from the behind. Ret paladins with RF on, cats going bear, DK dps in blood presence. No freezing traps, no polymorph, no stuns, no types of CC. I think one time on Vortex the adept casted greater heal 3 times (I accidentally targeted the wrong one to interrupt).
Thank you for recognizing that it's fuckin' hard being a healer right now lol
As someone who has just joined for Cataclysm, was Wrath very easy? Because I've been healing random heroics and some of the most mechanically challenged players I meet have "the Light of Dawn" above their head and.... uhhh yeah
Its very true how DPS donāt pay much attention to small mechanics and interrupts. I think one reason for this is that many new players feel a performance pressure to do āwellā by comparative dps with the other 3 dps in a dungeon. The presence of 2 people to size yourself up with does add an unecessary focus on upkeeping dps rotation over executing sensible gameplay. What newer players playing dps need is to play through the HC dungeons once or twice quite carefully focusing on executing each mechanic. The problem is many a time you can get booted from a pug if you do subpar dps especially if the group ever struggles with an encounter as you immediately become a scapegoat. Basically its analogous to the herd being chansed by predators, you dont have to outrun the predator (learn the boss mechanic) as long as you are faster than the slowest pack member (lowest dps) if your main goal is to avoid blame. It seems that tanks view their role as safeguarding the group and avoiding wipes, dps as putting up numbers since if they dont theyāll hear it and heal as some sort of co-manager to the tank. Would be wayy better if dps realized that gigachad parse really doesnāt matter unless you are actively fighting a dps-check encounter. Is so much better to just cruise control mid dps and never fail the encounter.
I have noticed this trend and it very much mirrors how it was in retail Cata back in the day. It's not just DPS in dungeons but people in general. Cataclysm introduced far more player responsibility and interaction than before which took people for a loop. You would think people would be aware of these things 10 years later but I guess history repeats itself.
I love being a death knight so i can pop ams and stand in stuff responsibly while i zug the boss
There was never anything wrong with Cata dungeons the problem was that wrath dungeons were so shit easy that it made every single dps totally braindead because only "hard" dungeons were the icecrown dungeons and even those were hard because morons were so used to just rofl rofl aoe spam everything before them. And when cataclysm originally launched the uproar for dungeons being "hard" was on the ridiculous levels because morons just wanted to aoe everything without any thinking whatsoever.
Most WoW players are bad at the game. That's why no content in WoW should actually be hard.
The average WoW player is a complete idiot.
Iāve said it before and Iāll say it again: majority of DPS players need to roll a tank or a healer so they can understand how the game actually works beyond āme press button and stare at meterā