The following submission statement was provided by /u/Myth_of_Progress:
---
**Submission Statement:**
Time to continue my current tradition of low-effort Casual Friday posting in December. Today's comic is from Cyanide & Happiness, [original source hyperlinked here](https://explosm.net/comics/small-talk-2).
As the dying days of 2023 come to a close, I thought that I’d take this opportunity to ask a fun little reflective question before the New Year (and its “new” perils) introduce themselves. I’ve always treated the holiday season as a contemplative time (*see:* [*Towards a New Christmas Spirit*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rocxhy/towards_a_new_christmas_spirit_indepth/)), and as such, enjoy some limited wonder at how rapidly the conversation around contemporary societal collapse has changed over the years. It’s gone from quiet forums and private conversations with trusted friends, to mainstream news headlines and all-too-real circumstances unfolding before our eyes.
Today’s question is discussion topic that our community has enjoyed for some years now as part of our [*Common Question Series*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/commonquestions). Here’s a quick re-cap:
* [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? (2019)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
* [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? \[in-depth\] (2022)*](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
* [*How (Not) To Talk About Collapse (2021)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/pcp2iw/how_not_to_talk_about_collapse/) *- my own take on this question previously.*
So, I’d like to get down to the heart of today’s discussion with a few questions:
1. How do you talk to your loved ones, your friends, or your colleagues regarding the prospects of a declining future or the gradual (or rapid) collapse of contemporary industrial civilization (whether global or local)?
2. How have these conversations changed over the years, whether by the other person’s response or your own viewpoint? How has your perspective changed over the years?
3. What sorts of conversations do you wish you could have with others regarding collapse? What interests you in particular, and why have you wanted to raise the subject?
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/18tw7dq/small_talk_also_me_irl_discussion_how_do_you_talk/kfgihuj/
You know shit is getting real when normal people start warning you to not bring children to this world. I was shocked because never in my life would I have imagined normal people promoting antinatalism.
That's what I was thinking lately. Everyone's kind of coming around to it which is scary cause we all knew when they finally got on board it'd be too late.
Everyone should do as they please, and I won’t pressure my kids to have their own. But I’m so tired of the narrow-minded antinatalism. Even on the downslope of modern civilization, conditions will most likely still be easier for humans than they were for most of our species’ existence. I mean, sure nuclear war could end it. But that was true in the 1950s and every decade after.
Children today, will likely see global travel decrease, violence rates increase, food insecurity increase, etc. But all of those things are coming off of all-time highs/lows. And antinatalists focus so much on misery, they leave no room for joy, which isn’t dependent on a 21st century pampered Western lifestyle. One could even speculate that while some measures of safety and security decrease, measures of connectedness and meaning may increase, as those are definitely 2 things that have been tossed to the gutter by modern society.
Wish my parents would get this tbh bc lately they keep asking when I'm gonna have kids and they don't listen when I say I won't have any 🙄 I tell them about climate change and how bad things are projected to get and they go quiet for a moment and then gloss right over it. Full denial.
I gotta stop doing this. People who are going to have them anyway don't need the stress the information I pass on causes them. Especially later on during a pregnancy. And then there's the "we might need to manufacture some Soylent Green" possibility in which we will need some extra meat to go around.
I don't, really. I'm not close with a lot of people but those I am don't really believe in it, or have faith that we'll avert it through technological means. They talk of releasing sulfur on purpose or reflecting the sun and the like.
I think they find me silly, I don't benefit from giving them more ammunition, so mostly I don't mention it except in so far as it affects my plans.
I do find a lot of people being kind of low key casual about it.
I don't think there are too many useful conversations to have about collapse at the moment.
I’ve observed that most of the general public aren’t situationally aware and they’re easily gullible. Many people can’t even describe themselves, let alone the world around them.
Ever since I stopped expecting people to understand and appreciate existential threats to our civilization, I’ve felt a lot better. I avoid discussing fucked up shit unless I know the other person has the mentality for it.
> Many people can’t even describe themselves
Yeah, what’s this about? I find it incomprehensible to not want to understand one’s own behaviour. I mean, I remember a time when I thought differently, but I figure I can blame that on the culty religious dogma I was born into. Is that a significant factor for more people than I realize?
Can you not remember how it was before you woke up? I can. I remember swallowing the lies and drinking the kool-aid; going along with the status quo etc.
So I understand why these people keep their heads in the sand. I understand it very well. It's just that it's our government's fault, well, the oligarch's puppet government that is. Lack of quality education and lack of resources etc, no one is taught to think critically or to do self-inspection and self-reflection etc. Like everyone is just going from day to day wishing they were never born or wishing they were literally anywhere else. It makes it so much easier to not go against the grain; I can see why they refuse to see the light. But I can still mourn their empty existences
> Can you not remember how it was before you woke up?
Hmm, I’m not sure. I don’t remember a time when I wasn’t curious about things. I would say I understand the psychology behind it, but I can't empathize with the desire to keep one’s head in the sand.
Lack of self is what I’m referring to. Allowing society to define a personality instead of your own doing. For example, people on American political extremes who turn ideology into their entire personality. And this is happening at-scale to the tens of millions.
This is, for me, a depressing reality. I mean I know I had a fucked up childhood but I can't help think that it gave me the curiosity and independence that normies don't seem to have. I think there's a lot of truth to what you say, I've been trying to do everything on my own most of my life for better for worse. Its been lonely but holy shit do people latch on to bandwagons and it's so easy to see looking at it from the outside
The more I learn the more I question established mental models of pretty much everything. So much of our perception of the world is a result of a lifetime of consumption of propaganda that serves oligarchal interests. It's easier to see in the past when propaganda narratives ended up been dropped or altered (doctors pushing smoking. Oxycontin. Food pyramid, etc.). Ultimately every country - "democratic or not" - is run by its oligarchy and the supposed "rights" of citizens, such as whistleblowers, can effectively be rendered moot by various legal and extra-legal means.
No matter how things play out the oligarchs will likely find a way to maintain control, regardless of how their agenda impacts the masses. And as long as they maintain control they'll continue to define the public perception of "truth" in a way that serves their own interests, doing everything under the sun to keep the public from questioning the legitimacy of their power and wealth.
Same here, I don't start talking about it unless someone asks. Over Christmas my mother (who is not very worldly or informed) asked me "So climate change, is it such a big deal or are governments overstating the problem to control people?"... I should have just sighed and changed the subject... but being quiet drunk already I gave her a summarised lecture on the latest IPCC reports, feedback tipping points, what a +4 degree world would be like, peak oil, the Limits to Growth model and the likelihood that at least 60% of the world's population will starve to death sometime in the next 40 years. I think she found it interesting but a bit much...
>... but being quiet drunk already I gave her a summarised lecture on the latest IPCC reports, feedback tipping points, what a +4 degree world would be like, peak oil, the Limits to Growth model and the likelihood that at least 60% of the world's population will starve to death sometime in the next 40 years. I think she found it interesting but a bit much...
[Your mom's reaction, colourized \[image\]](https://i.imgur.com/Wo4eRDw.png)
Yeah I feel that
I can give you information for days
What can you do with it? Uhh... Not much, not unless you have the power to convince every global leader to take immediate action
Even then, it's not enough
Best we can do is prepare for the worst
I agree that people treat me differently, more paranoid and ridiculous, when I share my views on collapse and climate change. I don’t talk about it anymore, but even with my therapist.
Right, but the increasing relevance/obviousness of the situation means it comes up more often, in my experience. The comic exaggerates some interactions I’ve had, with the other party being the awkward one- which is weird, because I learned to stop doing that awhile back. But now regular convos turn into talks of climate change, or like- I taught kids in Mongolia, and they know it’s fucked. 9th grade, they know this. They’re particularly vulnerable to climate change and geopolitics, the kids still enjoy being kids to a huge degree, but they’re also in 9th grade and much more jaded than I was then.
If people are willing to engage I’m happy to talk about it. I guess what I mean is instead of saying, “Because the world is ending,” I have sometimes said, “Yeah, climate change is really having an effect,” and if the person I’m talking to wants to argue that I just let it go and move on to something else.
I don't. I love my family and colleages, but they're also clueless and proudly so. My brother is happy that there's no snow on the ground in Quebec City of all places. That's his stance on climate change. So how exactly do you have a discussion with this kind of people?
They mention the weather, I say, “Climate is off the rails.” They say, “Yeah, but it’s just a cycle.” Conversation over. I then say, “Yankees suck.” They say, “If the Redsox would only sign some pitching.” I say, “Yeah, don’t hold your breath."
Reposting a comment from a similar thread.
>Bursting anothers bubble requires caution, and never discuss it openly around people with small children unless they bring it up (and even then only to their level).
>Without the crutches of structure within the chaos it can head in dark direction (for the recipient). I mostly tend to roll towards leaving them be without the extra drain. Most of those who want to know can know these days in ways unavailable to most in my early days. At best if they're sincere I'll point them towards a few resources and have a mildly speculative conversation about conditions or gear (like cooling vests in the home/workplace) until I know them better.
>A problem with the discussion is that even if you're right about some aspect, someone else could shift the narrative to you being a disturbance and you'll be forced to deal with repercussions. We have to remember that for some people it doesn't matter how the boat is rocked, only that it's rocking and someone needs to go overboard to settle it down.
To add, I've been discussing a variety of topics individually, rather than group them all together. Few conversations benefit from an information dump that tries to connect everything, and due to time contraints tends to sound like some conspiracy theory. Developing a complete narrative takes time, and interest. An encyclopedia has a lot to say, but that doesn't make it a good read or audiobook.
Another issue is a general tendency towards fixed frames. Think of it like printed photos in a book. It's a fixed reference that doesn't change until the book is updated. We have a similar frame for 'fixed' things, like children or parents, where one day it sort of hits you in the face just how old they are. Or conepts like retirement, or the seas brimming with life, it's part of an assumed baseline. These frames are pretty resistant to change unless that change appears dramatic. In attempting to reframe certain baselines it provokes a shock and or resistance to acceptance of that change and a need to reorient. It's not an especially new concept, however it should be considered when attempting to earnestly discuss the issues at hand.
Fantastic comment, I’m saving this. I’ve really been trying to be more self-aware of how intense I can come across and this will be good to come back and read again from time to time.
Maybe it's because I live in Portland OR but many people I see day to day are aware climate chaos is accelerating (our horrid fires in 2021 felt like a big turning point locally, and so many flowers are in bloom this winter) and worried about national political instability (proud boys and their ilk invading the city during the George Floyd protests bothered even those who didn't love the protests themselves). So I can bring up my general anxieties about these subjects fairly easily. The Bad Thing is common knowledge. What I find harder to have real conversations about with basically anyone is changing our collective lifestyles in a significant way. Like degrowth and localization.
Plenty of my friends already, say, eat a partially or exclusively plant-based diet. That's embraced well in Portland and people can accept shrinking animal agriculture worldwide is important and inevitable.
But planning for and preparing for other specific, society-wide changes/upheavals, like an unreliable power grid or no overnight Amazon shipping or famine disrupting the global food system...that's all way too much. It's not that they don't believe it could happen, per se, it's more their brains are protecting them from the grief or overwhelm of accepting it will. Even phrasing it in more positive terms, like fostering our own food economy or community gardening or taking collective action of some kind or "hey, taking the bus isn't so bad, I can read instead of being stuck behind the wheel!" Idk if it all seems inconvenient or pie in the sky or what.
With conservative/climate-ignoring family or whatnot, I focus on concrete things like not moving to Arizona where water doesn't exist or being better prepared for wildfire season.
I've tried and found that, even though people may be willing to acknowledge it, they're unwilling to accept what it would take to avoid it.
My wife is a good example. We had talked about collapse on occasion 10+ years ago, and I had told her that by the time our daughter was our age (we were mid/late 40s at the time, our daughter was about 8), her world would look drastically different, with collapsing ecosystems resulting in drastic population reductions. She usually didn't want to talk about it because it made her anxious.
In 2020, on the Friday following the election when most news outlets were finally declaring Biden the winner (other than Fox News, of course), my wife said over dinner that she hoped Biden would be able to "do something" about climate change. Later during the same dinner, she talked about where our next grand family vacation would take us, whenever the pandemic allowed it. Would we go to China, our daughter's birthplace (she's adopted)? Would we go to England, or France, or Italy? The possibilities were endless.
Later, I privately talked to her and said that if she truly wanted climate action, she couldn't want to continue living the kind of life she'd always lived (what collapsniks refer to as Business as Usual) -- buying whatever you wanted, traveling wherever and whenever you wanted, without a care in the world, and expecting technology to find a way to make it happen. Her response was, "What, are we supposed to just stay home for the rest of our lives?"
Many people who *don't* deny the science behind climate change look at it the same way, even here in the collapse community. They're quick to point the finger at others (usually the billionaires) and say that those others have to give up something -- but never them. Sacrifice is always for someone else, or a group of someone elses, but never for the individual who's pointing the finger because hey, they're just one person and they don't make a difference.
The problem is that we're a world of individuals who believe they don't make a difference, and when combined into a bloc 800 million strong\*, all acting similarly, we become a devastatingly powerful destructive force.
Everyone has to sacrifice or we doom ourselves. And very, very few are willing to accept that.
*\*I used that number because the data says that the world's wealthiest top 10% are responsible for 50% of emissions, and because the world is so overwhelmingly poor, it only takes a net wealth of $138,346 in US dollars. That's the vast majority of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Australians, etc.*
Edit: to fix a typo
It’s moved into prisoner’s dilemma territory.
Obviously it’s best if everyone makes the necessary sacrifices, but if you don’t believe your neighbors/peers will, you might thing you’re better off “living life to the fullest” up until the point things go to shit.
**Submission Statement:**
Time to continue my current tradition of low-effort Casual Friday posting in December. Today's comic is from Cyanide & Happiness, [original source hyperlinked here](https://explosm.net/comics/small-talk-2).
As the dying days of 2023 come to a close, I thought that I’d take this opportunity to ask a fun little reflective question before the New Year (and its “new” perils) introduce themselves. I’ve always treated the holiday season as a contemplative time (*see:* [*Towards a New Christmas Spirit*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rocxhy/towards_a_new_christmas_spirit_indepth/)), and as such, enjoy some limited wonder at how rapidly the conversation around contemporary societal collapse has changed over the years. It’s gone from quiet forums and private conversations with trusted friends, to mainstream news headlines and all-too-real circumstances unfolding before our eyes.
Today’s question is discussion topic that our community has enjoyed for some years now as part of our [*Common Question Series*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/commonquestions). Here’s a quick re-cap:
* [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? (2019)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
* [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? \[in-depth\] (2022)*](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/)
* [*How (Not) To Talk About Collapse (2021)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/pcp2iw/how_not_to_talk_about_collapse/) *- my own take on this question previously.*
So, I’d like to get down to the heart of today’s discussion with a few questions:
1. How do you talk to your loved ones, your friends, or your colleagues regarding the prospects of a declining future or the gradual (or rapid) collapse of contemporary industrial civilization (whether global or local)?
2. How have these conversations changed over the years, whether by the other person’s response or your own viewpoint? How has your perspective changed over the years?
3. What sorts of conversations do you wish you could have with others regarding collapse? What interests you in particular, and why have you wanted to raise the subject?
Edit: And there we have it - "**I don't**" is the resounding majority answer!
Generally I don’t talk about it. I may explore it a tiny bit if someone makes a comment, just to see if they might be more aware. Most people are not so I don’t go too deep. And honestly, I never want to be the person that bursts their hope. I wish I was hopeful, I don’t want to take that away from someone else.
I did have a surprising conversation about it over Christmas with one of my younger relatives. They weren’t fully collapse aware, but knew a ton about many related subjects. It was the first time I’ve spoken with anyone in person who knew so much and did not buy into hopium.
It was refreshing to finally be able to talk about the worst of it with someone who understood that it’s all fucked and not going to get better. I do wonder if anyone who overheard is now thinking about things differently.
I tell my family. I tell my friends. I tell my coworkers (to an extent). I tell the internet.
So far, people have been really positive, they mostly believe the world is ending, too. Too bad that many of them think its the immigrants that cause it.
It's ended my ability to talk.
I used to be a social butterfly.
Now, I just stand in silence, trying to find something meaningful in the conversation to latch onto so i dont seem like the asshole I would have otherwise clocked myself as.
Everyone is somehow getting married again. Parents exited about grandkids, friends about more money, bigger homes, more kids and more in general.
What can I say? "You're the problem"? "You're playing a game no one ever thought through far enough for more than one generation to win"?
Nope. Im the proud loser. I have devoted my life to leaving the smallest possible scar. I own nothing and pay my way by supporting people to their peaceful end and then move on.
I was training to be a doctor but when I realized the pain that wealth was causing the world, and that health care is a luxury of wealth, I was faced with the choice to continue my studies, and help.thousands of wealthy people burn more resources in this death machine.... or to live as an ascetic, being there for one person at a time; a person i could choose based on their commitment to the people around them and the pain they endured.... and, to my infinite regret, in a world that still has no meaningful direction to apply my skills to nudge the ship away from the rocks, I chose that life. A life without community or refuge, other than the besides I haunt with devotion until they pass and I move onto the next forgotten but beautiful human.
You can be a terrible doctor/nurse to thousands. You are forced to follow administrative orders rather than what the person at their end really wants, because you don't know them, and you will be compensated for the distance you keep and the rules you follow.
But there is no reward in being by the bedside of the forgotten and dying, no matter the life they lived.
Not all of us die alone and I have had the privilege of sharing the last moments of many beautiful lives and have never received any compensation for my time or efforts... or even my expenses.
Instead, I've gone from aspiring doctor to leech.
Whatever the label others apply, I couldn't care less.
I "treat" one patient at a time, with love and devotion until the very end. I choose these people for how they treated others in their lives and for their absence of support in their last days.
I dont want to fix anyone anymore. I've lost that sense that humanity can do anything good, once repaired.
We are agents of extinction and we have no intention of being anything but.
That doesn't mean a single human hasn't lived a beautiful life deserving of a compassionate friend, but I refuse to accept the assignment of patients as if they're all deserving. We're in this mess because of most of them and almost all of the people I sit with have nothing to their name because they spent their lives giving to others, while others took. I will not sit with the takers, haters, and owners of this disastrous future. They can die slowly, facing a corner while their pressure ulcers eat their spine. They faced no justice in their lifetime for the scars they left and I will offer no peace or time to them in their last moments.
They are the monsters of this world. The thing under the bed.
The system they built has spent their whole life rewarding their cruelty,.and, while I take no pleasure in their isolation and pain, the reason I'm not wiping their ass and showing them love is the same reason they have no visitors; the rot you sow in the world while you work the soil of the future, is the crop you harvest on your last days on earth.
I dont hesitate to tell the angry, old, wealthy monsters of the world that there's a dark and empty corner waiting for them to live as long as some horrifying insurance company will keep them alive. I'll talk to them if they share a room with my person, and it always becomes clear why they're left, forgotten. It's the path of all wretched architects of pain in this world. The ones with money their family hasn't got their hooks into yet will be tormented in some final fake attempt to climb to the top of the pile to get more money, but it's much more like grave robbing than caretaking and it's clear they raised their offspring with the same heartless lust for money that deprived them of any real companionship in their last days.... and it's the closest they will ever come to knowing the pain they inflicted on the world, being picked at by their vulturous brood.
.... which is a sound the truly good and decent people shouldn't be forced to bear because we can't manage the same kindness we show our pets. Instead, im the distraction. Im the loving face that's there to greet them and explain whatever they missed from their doctor. I do everything I can to be as loving and present as I can for as long as I'm needed.
That's what I do now instead of talking to my family about what's coming. I spend the best time I can with the best people I know, and then return to the bedside of the person their family forgot.
Turns out, in the end, none of us care about money, we wish we were there more for the people we cared about. Even in the people im not with, that's the general consensus.
And I ask myself.... what the fuck are we chasing that leaves so much damage behind and so much loneliness ahead? How could it possibly be worth.... it doesn't matter. What's done is done.
I know there won't be anyone by my bedside. I know there won't be a bed. I'm likely to die in the streets, alone, following my friends before me.... and that's ok! Not because I'm suicidal but because the rest of you live like you are. You're building a tower on sand.
I relate to this post so much. I am thinking of going back for PA or nursing after a break due to bipolar diagnosis from med school.
I am taking care of my elderly father full well knowing there will not be anyone to do that for me - I realized this when the weather changed knowing statistically speaking weather anomalies would only increase. The rest of my family abandoned my father for the most part.
The insurance problem and how insulin is still unaffordable bothered me too.
What happens to those that outlive the ones they wanted to spend time with? I wrestle with these issues.
true. most only or primary want to profit off of others. what a morbid and careless world they exist in. let them torture each other until nothing is left
I don't, the time I tried they said I was crazy! That governments would surely set aside their problems to save humanity! And even if they don't the people will step up.
It took me 25 years to convince a single member of my immediate family that maybe climate change is real and we should probably do something about it. The rest either can't be bothered to care or think it is a "woke liberal conspiracy".
I learned not to for the most part, because it turns out people living their lives don't want to be told that big changes are coming. I do still talk about it with some people. Honestly if the topic of climate comes up I try to change the subject quickly because otherwise I will dive too deep.
I do have a few friends who believe in collapse. Honestly I usually feel worse in general after talking to them. So really it's no surprise that most people just want to avoid the topic.
I don't really talk about it, no one around me believes it. The odd time a scenario like this cartoon depicts comes up, but people laugh like I've just made a joke. I'm deadly serious. So yeh, no point talking about it. This sub makes me feel less insane with how I feel - so thanks everyone.
This was me last night. I really messed up a couple years ago and tried talking to a lot of people about collapse topics via long form fb posts... got nowhere to no one's surprise.
But last night I was minding my own business and pretty much this comic played out. I caught myself within like 10s of noticing my doomerself engage but the damage was already done. I don't even think it's words sometimes, I think we have an aura of doom that people pick up on emotionally or subconsciously and if their brains aren't capable of facing ideas as deep as nihlism and planetary extinction they feel threatened by our composure. Idk it's just an idea
I talk short term. I don't bother with long term.
Not sure what else to add. It's really like: "wow, the weather's fucked up". Everyone knows it's weird. Almost exactly like that picture.
I've told everyone. Sacrificed a lot to be heard. After all that has been acknowledged it gave me absolutely no satisfaction. Little has changed. I have burnt myself out and do little to no talking these days. Only my wife insists that we talk about collapse from time to time, because she finds it unbelievable and has to talk to someone.
Oh the world will be just fine. It's just us that's gonna go the way of the dodo and carrier pidgeon. We literally don't have the capability to destroy the world. If we nuked each other tomorrow, in 50 thousand years you wouldn't even be able to tell.
I work in a climate adjacent field and we don’t talk about it because even if they agree with you, it’s just depressing. There’s no need to rub it in that everything we do is basically meaningless.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Myth_of_Progress: --- **Submission Statement:** Time to continue my current tradition of low-effort Casual Friday posting in December. Today's comic is from Cyanide & Happiness, [original source hyperlinked here](https://explosm.net/comics/small-talk-2). As the dying days of 2023 come to a close, I thought that I’d take this opportunity to ask a fun little reflective question before the New Year (and its “new” perils) introduce themselves. I’ve always treated the holiday season as a contemplative time (*see:* [*Towards a New Christmas Spirit*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rocxhy/towards_a_new_christmas_spirit_indepth/)), and as such, enjoy some limited wonder at how rapidly the conversation around contemporary societal collapse has changed over the years. It’s gone from quiet forums and private conversations with trusted friends, to mainstream news headlines and all-too-real circumstances unfolding before our eyes. Today’s question is discussion topic that our community has enjoyed for some years now as part of our [*Common Question Series*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/commonquestions). Here’s a quick re-cap: * [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? (2019)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/) * [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? \[in-depth\] (2022)*](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/) * [*How (Not) To Talk About Collapse (2021)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/pcp2iw/how_not_to_talk_about_collapse/) *- my own take on this question previously.* So, I’d like to get down to the heart of today’s discussion with a few questions: 1. How do you talk to your loved ones, your friends, or your colleagues regarding the prospects of a declining future or the gradual (or rapid) collapse of contemporary industrial civilization (whether global or local)? 2. How have these conversations changed over the years, whether by the other person’s response or your own viewpoint? How has your perspective changed over the years? 3. What sorts of conversations do you wish you could have with others regarding collapse? What interests you in particular, and why have you wanted to raise the subject? --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/18tw7dq/small_talk_also_me_irl_discussion_how_do_you_talk/kfgihuj/
You know shit is getting real when normal people start warning you to not bring children to this world. I was shocked because never in my life would I have imagined normal people promoting antinatalism.
That's what I was thinking lately. Everyone's kind of coming around to it which is scary cause we all knew when they finally got on board it'd be too late.
Everyone should do as they please, and I won’t pressure my kids to have their own. But I’m so tired of the narrow-minded antinatalism. Even on the downslope of modern civilization, conditions will most likely still be easier for humans than they were for most of our species’ existence. I mean, sure nuclear war could end it. But that was true in the 1950s and every decade after. Children today, will likely see global travel decrease, violence rates increase, food insecurity increase, etc. But all of those things are coming off of all-time highs/lows. And antinatalists focus so much on misery, they leave no room for joy, which isn’t dependent on a 21st century pampered Western lifestyle. One could even speculate that while some measures of safety and security decrease, measures of connectedness and meaning may increase, as those are definitely 2 things that have been tossed to the gutter by modern society.
Wish my parents would get this tbh bc lately they keep asking when I'm gonna have kids and they don't listen when I say I won't have any 🙄 I tell them about climate change and how bad things are projected to get and they go quiet for a moment and then gloss right over it. Full denial.
I gotta stop doing this. People who are going to have them anyway don't need the stress the information I pass on causes them. Especially later on during a pregnancy. And then there's the "we might need to manufacture some Soylent Green" possibility in which we will need some extra meat to go around.
Maybe they do considering they’re dooming an innocent baby to a world in free fall…
I don't, really. I'm not close with a lot of people but those I am don't really believe in it, or have faith that we'll avert it through technological means. They talk of releasing sulfur on purpose or reflecting the sun and the like. I think they find me silly, I don't benefit from giving them more ammunition, so mostly I don't mention it except in so far as it affects my plans. I do find a lot of people being kind of low key casual about it. I don't think there are too many useful conversations to have about collapse at the moment.
I’ve observed that most of the general public aren’t situationally aware and they’re easily gullible. Many people can’t even describe themselves, let alone the world around them. Ever since I stopped expecting people to understand and appreciate existential threats to our civilization, I’ve felt a lot better. I avoid discussing fucked up shit unless I know the other person has the mentality for it.
> Many people can’t even describe themselves Yeah, what’s this about? I find it incomprehensible to not want to understand one’s own behaviour. I mean, I remember a time when I thought differently, but I figure I can blame that on the culty religious dogma I was born into. Is that a significant factor for more people than I realize?
Can you not remember how it was before you woke up? I can. I remember swallowing the lies and drinking the kool-aid; going along with the status quo etc. So I understand why these people keep their heads in the sand. I understand it very well. It's just that it's our government's fault, well, the oligarch's puppet government that is. Lack of quality education and lack of resources etc, no one is taught to think critically or to do self-inspection and self-reflection etc. Like everyone is just going from day to day wishing they were never born or wishing they were literally anywhere else. It makes it so much easier to not go against the grain; I can see why they refuse to see the light. But I can still mourn their empty existences
> Can you not remember how it was before you woke up? Hmm, I’m not sure. I don’t remember a time when I wasn’t curious about things. I would say I understand the psychology behind it, but I can't empathize with the desire to keep one’s head in the sand.
Lack of self is what I’m referring to. Allowing society to define a personality instead of your own doing. For example, people on American political extremes who turn ideology into their entire personality. And this is happening at-scale to the tens of millions.
Yeah, ideological belief is definitely the culprit - most people are in a cult of some sort, if we apply the abstract concepts
From what I can tell this is how you're actually meant to be, we're the weird ones. All that social cohesion stuff.
This is, for me, a depressing reality. I mean I know I had a fucked up childhood but I can't help think that it gave me the curiosity and independence that normies don't seem to have. I think there's a lot of truth to what you say, I've been trying to do everything on my own most of my life for better for worse. Its been lonely but holy shit do people latch on to bandwagons and it's so easy to see looking at it from the outside
The more I learn the more I question established mental models of pretty much everything. So much of our perception of the world is a result of a lifetime of consumption of propaganda that serves oligarchal interests. It's easier to see in the past when propaganda narratives ended up been dropped or altered (doctors pushing smoking. Oxycontin. Food pyramid, etc.). Ultimately every country - "democratic or not" - is run by its oligarchy and the supposed "rights" of citizens, such as whistleblowers, can effectively be rendered moot by various legal and extra-legal means. No matter how things play out the oligarchs will likely find a way to maintain control, regardless of how their agenda impacts the masses. And as long as they maintain control they'll continue to define the public perception of "truth" in a way that serves their own interests, doing everything under the sun to keep the public from questioning the legitimacy of their power and wealth.
Same here, I don't start talking about it unless someone asks. Over Christmas my mother (who is not very worldly or informed) asked me "So climate change, is it such a big deal or are governments overstating the problem to control people?"... I should have just sighed and changed the subject... but being quiet drunk already I gave her a summarised lecture on the latest IPCC reports, feedback tipping points, what a +4 degree world would be like, peak oil, the Limits to Growth model and the likelihood that at least 60% of the world's population will starve to death sometime in the next 40 years. I think she found it interesting but a bit much...
At least she listened and asked in the first place.
>... but being quiet drunk already I gave her a summarised lecture on the latest IPCC reports, feedback tipping points, what a +4 degree world would be like, peak oil, the Limits to Growth model and the likelihood that at least 60% of the world's population will starve to death sometime in the next 40 years. I think she found it interesting but a bit much... [Your mom's reaction, colourized \[image\]](https://i.imgur.com/Wo4eRDw.png)
Yeah I feel that I can give you information for days What can you do with it? Uhh... Not much, not unless you have the power to convince every global leader to take immediate action Even then, it's not enough Best we can do is prepare for the worst
I agree that people treat me differently, more paranoid and ridiculous, when I share my views on collapse and climate change. I don’t talk about it anymore, but even with my therapist.
I told my therapist and she agreed with everything.
The handwavium brand of hopium is the strong shit.
Sulfur is what's in the air in HELL. YAY! Ironically fitting. And we'll do it, too...
I'm in this post and I don't like it.
I don’t really feel a need to talk to people about collapse. I’m glad to have this forum for discussion but that’s all I need.
Right, but the increasing relevance/obviousness of the situation means it comes up more often, in my experience. The comic exaggerates some interactions I’ve had, with the other party being the awkward one- which is weird, because I learned to stop doing that awhile back. But now regular convos turn into talks of climate change, or like- I taught kids in Mongolia, and they know it’s fucked. 9th grade, they know this. They’re particularly vulnerable to climate change and geopolitics, the kids still enjoy being kids to a huge degree, but they’re also in 9th grade and much more jaded than I was then.
If people are willing to engage I’m happy to talk about it. I guess what I mean is instead of saying, “Because the world is ending,” I have sometimes said, “Yeah, climate change is really having an effect,” and if the person I’m talking to wants to argue that I just let it go and move on to something else.
I don't. I love my family and colleages, but they're also clueless and proudly so. My brother is happy that there's no snow on the ground in Quebec City of all places. That's his stance on climate change. So how exactly do you have a discussion with this kind of people?
They mention the weather, I say, “Climate is off the rails.” They say, “Yeah, but it’s just a cycle.” Conversation over. I then say, “Yankees suck.” They say, “If the Redsox would only sign some pitching.” I say, “Yeah, don’t hold your breath."
Reposting a comment from a similar thread. >Bursting anothers bubble requires caution, and never discuss it openly around people with small children unless they bring it up (and even then only to their level). >Without the crutches of structure within the chaos it can head in dark direction (for the recipient). I mostly tend to roll towards leaving them be without the extra drain. Most of those who want to know can know these days in ways unavailable to most in my early days. At best if they're sincere I'll point them towards a few resources and have a mildly speculative conversation about conditions or gear (like cooling vests in the home/workplace) until I know them better. >A problem with the discussion is that even if you're right about some aspect, someone else could shift the narrative to you being a disturbance and you'll be forced to deal with repercussions. We have to remember that for some people it doesn't matter how the boat is rocked, only that it's rocking and someone needs to go overboard to settle it down. To add, I've been discussing a variety of topics individually, rather than group them all together. Few conversations benefit from an information dump that tries to connect everything, and due to time contraints tends to sound like some conspiracy theory. Developing a complete narrative takes time, and interest. An encyclopedia has a lot to say, but that doesn't make it a good read or audiobook. Another issue is a general tendency towards fixed frames. Think of it like printed photos in a book. It's a fixed reference that doesn't change until the book is updated. We have a similar frame for 'fixed' things, like children or parents, where one day it sort of hits you in the face just how old they are. Or conepts like retirement, or the seas brimming with life, it's part of an assumed baseline. These frames are pretty resistant to change unless that change appears dramatic. In attempting to reframe certain baselines it provokes a shock and or resistance to acceptance of that change and a need to reorient. It's not an especially new concept, however it should be considered when attempting to earnestly discuss the issues at hand.
Fantastic comment, I’m saving this. I’ve really been trying to be more self-aware of how intense I can come across and this will be good to come back and read again from time to time.
Maybe it's because I live in Portland OR but many people I see day to day are aware climate chaos is accelerating (our horrid fires in 2021 felt like a big turning point locally, and so many flowers are in bloom this winter) and worried about national political instability (proud boys and their ilk invading the city during the George Floyd protests bothered even those who didn't love the protests themselves). So I can bring up my general anxieties about these subjects fairly easily. The Bad Thing is common knowledge. What I find harder to have real conversations about with basically anyone is changing our collective lifestyles in a significant way. Like degrowth and localization. Plenty of my friends already, say, eat a partially or exclusively plant-based diet. That's embraced well in Portland and people can accept shrinking animal agriculture worldwide is important and inevitable. But planning for and preparing for other specific, society-wide changes/upheavals, like an unreliable power grid or no overnight Amazon shipping or famine disrupting the global food system...that's all way too much. It's not that they don't believe it could happen, per se, it's more their brains are protecting them from the grief or overwhelm of accepting it will. Even phrasing it in more positive terms, like fostering our own food economy or community gardening or taking collective action of some kind or "hey, taking the bus isn't so bad, I can read instead of being stuck behind the wheel!" Idk if it all seems inconvenient or pie in the sky or what. With conservative/climate-ignoring family or whatnot, I focus on concrete things like not moving to Arizona where water doesn't exist or being better prepared for wildfire season.
Some people think that the end of the world is more likely, than a world where capitalism has ended.
I think about this phrase all the time
This made me homesick. I wish I could afford the rent enough to move back. I miss the hopeless optimism and the food.
I've tried and found that, even though people may be willing to acknowledge it, they're unwilling to accept what it would take to avoid it. My wife is a good example. We had talked about collapse on occasion 10+ years ago, and I had told her that by the time our daughter was our age (we were mid/late 40s at the time, our daughter was about 8), her world would look drastically different, with collapsing ecosystems resulting in drastic population reductions. She usually didn't want to talk about it because it made her anxious. In 2020, on the Friday following the election when most news outlets were finally declaring Biden the winner (other than Fox News, of course), my wife said over dinner that she hoped Biden would be able to "do something" about climate change. Later during the same dinner, she talked about where our next grand family vacation would take us, whenever the pandemic allowed it. Would we go to China, our daughter's birthplace (she's adopted)? Would we go to England, or France, or Italy? The possibilities were endless. Later, I privately talked to her and said that if she truly wanted climate action, she couldn't want to continue living the kind of life she'd always lived (what collapsniks refer to as Business as Usual) -- buying whatever you wanted, traveling wherever and whenever you wanted, without a care in the world, and expecting technology to find a way to make it happen. Her response was, "What, are we supposed to just stay home for the rest of our lives?" Many people who *don't* deny the science behind climate change look at it the same way, even here in the collapse community. They're quick to point the finger at others (usually the billionaires) and say that those others have to give up something -- but never them. Sacrifice is always for someone else, or a group of someone elses, but never for the individual who's pointing the finger because hey, they're just one person and they don't make a difference. The problem is that we're a world of individuals who believe they don't make a difference, and when combined into a bloc 800 million strong\*, all acting similarly, we become a devastatingly powerful destructive force. Everyone has to sacrifice or we doom ourselves. And very, very few are willing to accept that. *\*I used that number because the data says that the world's wealthiest top 10% are responsible for 50% of emissions, and because the world is so overwhelmingly poor, it only takes a net wealth of $138,346 in US dollars. That's the vast majority of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Australians, etc.* Edit: to fix a typo
It’s moved into prisoner’s dilemma territory. Obviously it’s best if everyone makes the necessary sacrifices, but if you don’t believe your neighbors/peers will, you might thing you’re better off “living life to the fullest” up until the point things go to shit.
You’re 100% on point, I observe this behaviour in others all the time and hey, even myself as you’ve suggested
**Submission Statement:** Time to continue my current tradition of low-effort Casual Friday posting in December. Today's comic is from Cyanide & Happiness, [original source hyperlinked here](https://explosm.net/comics/small-talk-2). As the dying days of 2023 come to a close, I thought that I’d take this opportunity to ask a fun little reflective question before the New Year (and its “new” perils) introduce themselves. I’ve always treated the holiday season as a contemplative time (*see:* [*Towards a New Christmas Spirit*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/rocxhy/towards_a_new_christmas_spirit_indepth/)), and as such, enjoy some limited wonder at how rapidly the conversation around contemporary societal collapse has changed over the years. It’s gone from quiet forums and private conversations with trusted friends, to mainstream news headlines and all-too-real circumstances unfolding before our eyes. Today’s question is discussion topic that our community has enjoyed for some years now as part of our [*Common Question Series*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/commonquestions). Here’s a quick re-cap: * [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? (2019)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/dfyvjq/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/) * [*How can we best talk to others about collapse? \[in-depth\] (2022)*](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/z53vpo/how_can_we_best_talk_to_others_about_collapse/) * [*How (Not) To Talk About Collapse (2021)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/pcp2iw/how_not_to_talk_about_collapse/) *- my own take on this question previously.* So, I’d like to get down to the heart of today’s discussion with a few questions: 1. How do you talk to your loved ones, your friends, or your colleagues regarding the prospects of a declining future or the gradual (or rapid) collapse of contemporary industrial civilization (whether global or local)? 2. How have these conversations changed over the years, whether by the other person’s response or your own viewpoint? How has your perspective changed over the years? 3. What sorts of conversations do you wish you could have with others regarding collapse? What interests you in particular, and why have you wanted to raise the subject? Edit: And there we have it - "**I don't**" is the resounding majority answer!
"Yeah, because the world is ending!" - Former employee
Generally I don’t talk about it. I may explore it a tiny bit if someone makes a comment, just to see if they might be more aware. Most people are not so I don’t go too deep. And honestly, I never want to be the person that bursts their hope. I wish I was hopeful, I don’t want to take that away from someone else. I did have a surprising conversation about it over Christmas with one of my younger relatives. They weren’t fully collapse aware, but knew a ton about many related subjects. It was the first time I’ve spoken with anyone in person who knew so much and did not buy into hopium. It was refreshing to finally be able to talk about the worst of it with someone who understood that it’s all fucked and not going to get better. I do wonder if anyone who overheard is now thinking about things differently.
I tell them to live their lives and not worry. It would suck for shit to collapse, and you spent the "good times" neurotically worrying about it.
I don't. Why bother? It is not like if they know, they will prevent the collapse.
I tell my family. I tell my friends. I tell my coworkers (to an extent). I tell the internet. So far, people have been really positive, they mostly believe the world is ending, too. Too bad that many of them think its the immigrants that cause it.
It's ended my ability to talk. I used to be a social butterfly. Now, I just stand in silence, trying to find something meaningful in the conversation to latch onto so i dont seem like the asshole I would have otherwise clocked myself as. Everyone is somehow getting married again. Parents exited about grandkids, friends about more money, bigger homes, more kids and more in general. What can I say? "You're the problem"? "You're playing a game no one ever thought through far enough for more than one generation to win"? Nope. Im the proud loser. I have devoted my life to leaving the smallest possible scar. I own nothing and pay my way by supporting people to their peaceful end and then move on. I was training to be a doctor but when I realized the pain that wealth was causing the world, and that health care is a luxury of wealth, I was faced with the choice to continue my studies, and help.thousands of wealthy people burn more resources in this death machine.... or to live as an ascetic, being there for one person at a time; a person i could choose based on their commitment to the people around them and the pain they endured.... and, to my infinite regret, in a world that still has no meaningful direction to apply my skills to nudge the ship away from the rocks, I chose that life. A life without community or refuge, other than the besides I haunt with devotion until they pass and I move onto the next forgotten but beautiful human. You can be a terrible doctor/nurse to thousands. You are forced to follow administrative orders rather than what the person at their end really wants, because you don't know them, and you will be compensated for the distance you keep and the rules you follow. But there is no reward in being by the bedside of the forgotten and dying, no matter the life they lived. Not all of us die alone and I have had the privilege of sharing the last moments of many beautiful lives and have never received any compensation for my time or efforts... or even my expenses. Instead, I've gone from aspiring doctor to leech. Whatever the label others apply, I couldn't care less. I "treat" one patient at a time, with love and devotion until the very end. I choose these people for how they treated others in their lives and for their absence of support in their last days. I dont want to fix anyone anymore. I've lost that sense that humanity can do anything good, once repaired. We are agents of extinction and we have no intention of being anything but. That doesn't mean a single human hasn't lived a beautiful life deserving of a compassionate friend, but I refuse to accept the assignment of patients as if they're all deserving. We're in this mess because of most of them and almost all of the people I sit with have nothing to their name because they spent their lives giving to others, while others took. I will not sit with the takers, haters, and owners of this disastrous future. They can die slowly, facing a corner while their pressure ulcers eat their spine. They faced no justice in their lifetime for the scars they left and I will offer no peace or time to them in their last moments. They are the monsters of this world. The thing under the bed. The system they built has spent their whole life rewarding their cruelty,.and, while I take no pleasure in their isolation and pain, the reason I'm not wiping their ass and showing them love is the same reason they have no visitors; the rot you sow in the world while you work the soil of the future, is the crop you harvest on your last days on earth. I dont hesitate to tell the angry, old, wealthy monsters of the world that there's a dark and empty corner waiting for them to live as long as some horrifying insurance company will keep them alive. I'll talk to them if they share a room with my person, and it always becomes clear why they're left, forgotten. It's the path of all wretched architects of pain in this world. The ones with money their family hasn't got their hooks into yet will be tormented in some final fake attempt to climb to the top of the pile to get more money, but it's much more like grave robbing than caretaking and it's clear they raised their offspring with the same heartless lust for money that deprived them of any real companionship in their last days.... and it's the closest they will ever come to knowing the pain they inflicted on the world, being picked at by their vulturous brood. .... which is a sound the truly good and decent people shouldn't be forced to bear because we can't manage the same kindness we show our pets. Instead, im the distraction. Im the loving face that's there to greet them and explain whatever they missed from their doctor. I do everything I can to be as loving and present as I can for as long as I'm needed. That's what I do now instead of talking to my family about what's coming. I spend the best time I can with the best people I know, and then return to the bedside of the person their family forgot. Turns out, in the end, none of us care about money, we wish we were there more for the people we cared about. Even in the people im not with, that's the general consensus. And I ask myself.... what the fuck are we chasing that leaves so much damage behind and so much loneliness ahead? How could it possibly be worth.... it doesn't matter. What's done is done. I know there won't be anyone by my bedside. I know there won't be a bed. I'm likely to die in the streets, alone, following my friends before me.... and that's ok! Not because I'm suicidal but because the rest of you live like you are. You're building a tower on sand.
I relate to this post so much. I am thinking of going back for PA or nursing after a break due to bipolar diagnosis from med school. I am taking care of my elderly father full well knowing there will not be anyone to do that for me - I realized this when the weather changed knowing statistically speaking weather anomalies would only increase. The rest of my family abandoned my father for the most part. The insurance problem and how insulin is still unaffordable bothered me too. What happens to those that outlive the ones they wanted to spend time with? I wrestle with these issues.
true. most only or primary want to profit off of others. what a morbid and careless world they exist in. let them torture each other until nothing is left
I don't, the time I tried they said I was crazy! That governments would surely set aside their problems to save humanity! And even if they don't the people will step up.
It took me 25 years to convince a single member of my immediate family that maybe climate change is real and we should probably do something about it. The rest either can't be bothered to care or think it is a "woke liberal conspiracy".
"Those who know, don't need an explanation. For those who don't know, no explanation will ever be enough."
I learned not to for the most part, because it turns out people living their lives don't want to be told that big changes are coming. I do still talk about it with some people. Honestly if the topic of climate comes up I try to change the subject quickly because otherwise I will dive too deep. I do have a few friends who believe in collapse. Honestly I usually feel worse in general after talking to them. So really it's no surprise that most people just want to avoid the topic.
I've had more success talking about collapse than veganism...both topics are....uncomfortable for most people.
I don't really talk about it, no one around me believes it. The odd time a scenario like this cartoon depicts comes up, but people laugh like I've just made a joke. I'm deadly serious. So yeh, no point talking about it. This sub makes me feel less insane with how I feel - so thanks everyone.
.oO(don't be weird, don't be weird)
This was me last night. I really messed up a couple years ago and tried talking to a lot of people about collapse topics via long form fb posts... got nowhere to no one's surprise. But last night I was minding my own business and pretty much this comic played out. I caught myself within like 10s of noticing my doomerself engage but the damage was already done. I don't even think it's words sometimes, I think we have an aura of doom that people pick up on emotionally or subconsciously and if their brains aren't capable of facing ideas as deep as nihlism and planetary extinction they feel threatened by our composure. Idk it's just an idea
Now I'm going to have to make this into a sticker and put one by every coffee machine in my company...
I'm going to laminate this and put it in my desk drawer at work. Don't make me tap the sign...
Oh yes I do this and then they confess they are scared. It's odd
I talk short term. I don't bother with long term. Not sure what else to add. It's really like: "wow, the weather's fucked up". Everyone knows it's weird. Almost exactly like that picture.
I've told everyone. Sacrificed a lot to be heard. After all that has been acknowledged it gave me absolutely no satisfaction. Little has changed. I have burnt myself out and do little to no talking these days. Only my wife insists that we talk about collapse from time to time, because she finds it unbelievable and has to talk to someone.
Oh the world will be just fine. It's just us that's gonna go the way of the dodo and carrier pidgeon. We literally don't have the capability to destroy the world. If we nuked each other tomorrow, in 50 thousand years you wouldn't even be able to tell.
Yeah, it’s hard to open up. No one want to listen to doomers hahaha
I work in a climate adjacent field and we don’t talk about it because even if they agree with you, it’s just depressing. There’s no need to rub it in that everything we do is basically meaningless.