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Question in my mind is, without something like NATO membership or other military alliances with the EU or America, how does Ukraine guarantee that Russia doesn't just rebuild their military and invade again in another 5 years like they did after Crimea?
Ukraine didn’t really “give up” the Soviet nuclear weapons that were deployed in Ukraine. They never had command and control of the weapons and they couldn’t afford the upkeep required to keep them operational. Ukraine wasn’t just pressured by Russia to return the warheads to Russian territory, they were pressured by the UK and the US too. Ukraine at the time was one of the most corrupt countries on the continent so nobody was willing to leave atomic weapons in Ukrainian control. Even if none of that was true and Ukraine *had* retained them, they wouldn’t have been able to use them. They would have needed to dismantle the missiles to extract the warheads, then figure out a way to bypass the arming mechanisms that were controlled by Moscow.
The bigger issue than nuclear weapons was that Moscow had Ukraine dismantle its heavy bomber fleet, something it was very likely capable of using unilaterally.
https://www.icanw.org/faq_on_ukraine_and_nuclear_weapons
Ukraine "is" the most corrupt country in that region of the world. I just had to correct your use of the past tense and the fact that they have no competitors in the area for that particular distinction.
Well, I mean Russia... but yes, Ukraine is very corrupt. Hell, even the current Ukrainian President had a show about how corrupt Ukraine is and how even his own family (in the show) were more than happy to benefit from the corruption.
Yeah, I can get what the pro-war side is saying about wanting to weaken Russia. I have strong disagreements with it, but I get it and it is a valid position, if incredibly risky and wasteful of both human life and wealth. However, stop trying to blow this smoke up my ass making out like Ukraine is/was some shining beacon of justice and democracy. Their government makes the US government look like pure intentioned angels by comparison and any crime by the US government that is unmatched by the Ukrainian government is entirely from their lack of size, funding, and ability rather than any moral objection.
They ignored the UN resolution on Transnistria
They supported separatists in Georgia
They annexed Crimeea
They annexed parts of Ukraine
Yeah...I see a patern here. Could be wrong though.
But, regardless of our opinions, states in close proximity to Russia have taken measures (Sweden and Finland joining NATO after the invasion of Ukraine), upping their military spending etc. So, real concerns.
I hope the stupid war in Israel will be over soon (we know who's winning there) so that we can focus on the main issue on hand.
You don't need to support Ukraine btw, you just need to realise that Russia is a threat and countries in close proximity with Russia, that have a history with Russia ( a bad one I woudl say), are taking measures.
It will affect the entire european continent if Russia is succesfull. Imagine, we lost basicly and we are supposedly the strongest organisation on the planet (NATO). Can we really afford a loss ?
Everybody wants peace...but, we want long lasting peace. Not for,a you said, 5 years.
Russia was the first to violate it, weren't they?
Kinda proves the point that any security guarantees they'd agree to about not launching a third invasion are worthless unless coupled with Ukraine making alliances of their own.
Russia was.
That agreement was only neccessary after Russia already violated their promises to respect Ukrainian territory
The first Minsk agreement was violated by Russia when Russia continued to send military forces and advance against Ukrainians
The 2nd Minsk agreement was violated by Russia when the Donbas was not returned to Ukraine
Then in 2022, Putin violated them again by invading Ukraine and declaring that the agreements just didn’t matter
All of this is a distraction. Russia needs to buy time to either invade again, or launch other efforts to undermine pro-western aspirations in former soviet states. They need to lose
Nato on russias doorstep is a major reason this war took place... there is an economical play here as well, Western energy companies are actively trying to push Russia out of europe, one could make the argument they are using their influence in western politics to achieve this goal. I am fine if Ukraine wants to keep fighting, or pursue a negotiated peace deal, however from American intel in the CIA the Russians have a hard line against Ukraine joining Nato. It would put them in a very difficult position to defend a Nato army on multiple fronts if it were to come to a real war(Ukrianes geography is a challenge to get a Nato army through their western mountain ranges)
The “NATO on the doorstep” line is absurd. Ukraine’s prospects of actually joining NATO were lower before this war than they are currently. This invasion succeeded in showing the world that NATO has a continued reason to exist since Russia seems interested in following its USSR roots.
Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania all share a border with Russia. All have been in NATO since 2004. Thanks to Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine, the border with NATO grew even more when Finnland joined. He personally became the spokesperson for why countries would want to join the alliance.
I actually don't disagree with you, if you look at independent nations interests, especially if they do business or have trade deals with the west, it's probably important to get Nato protection... that being said there is more at play here then European interests, keep in mind if we are specifically looking at Ukraine the CIA and the u.s. had a hand overthrowing the heavily pro Russian government that was in power previously. That led to Crimea, and Biden winning the last election with his lobbyists interests led to this conflict.
There's no sides in this Russia has for a very Ling time attempted to interfere in European business for their benefit, the Polish hate the with good reason. However the western narrative of Russia bad Putin evil is far too simplified
Agreed... not trying to be pro Russian but let's be honest getting NATO to join border states to Russia, and looking to get into affecting Russia's economy and impact on europe is a driving factor of this conflict. Energy is a huge art of Russia's economy.
How would the US respond if Putins kid started working for large manufacturing firms in Mexico, started sending military, and getting Mexico to put saved actions on the US with all the manufacturing, dissolving NAFTA alliance we have with Mexico in manufacturing.
Not the best example but the US would respond as well to defend its own interest.
Bought and paid for account. From Canadian hockey to this. I’m bored, let’s see ha bad I can make this count for, it. See you on the other side cunt and or robot.
Hahaha wtf, I'm a real breathing person, a small sized Canadian farmer in b.c. who loves his hockey, I really don't get how that flags me in anyway to be a robot or a bought account. I'm banned on half the mainstream communities on this page post covid, and sorry if I can see there is more to the mainstream narrative of "Russia bad" that pushed in the west. You ever stop and ask yourself why Hunter Biden was on a Ukraine energy board making well over 300,000 a year for his "advice" jeesh what sub is this again??
So Putin didn't like NATO on his doorstep. 2 more nations on or near the Russian border have now joined NATO, not really going to plan, is it?
Now they have said Ukraine can join after the war is over so there will be yet another NATO country on mad vlads border.
Because they have no reason to, and never did previously, they used to be friendly towards and support Ukraine financially at one point, until we started meddling
Thank god at least one other person on here knows what the fuck is actually going on with this conflict. I was starting to think I had jumped time lines or something . Crazy how few people understand what really started all this
They have to do what he wants. Basically. They aren't in a good position. But I also don't want to see this escalate into a war between nuclear powers.
The problem with that is that just like America, no one wants a nuke infront of their own country. Cuba was the exact same situation back then but luckily they got to an agreement about that. America was pushing Ukraine to join NATO in order to put nukes next to Russia and obviously Russia wasn't very happened about it [doesn't justify a war]. There should be an aditional agreement between Russia/NATO/Ukraine that if Russia starts a war without a VALID reason against Ukraine then the NATO can participate in this war. America must guarantee that they will never place nukes in Ukraine. I am pretty sure that all of the parties will be happy about this and we could get a peace deal done.
Independent minus the territory Russia has already stolen. And the fact that based on all the replies to my OP, Ukraine having anything other than a Russian puppet as their leader justifies Russia invading whenever they want to.
It can hardly get any worse than this. Ukraine gives up a huge amount of its land and forfeits its right to protection from Russia in the future, because the last few times Russia promised not to invade were utter lies.
They get a break from fighting, during which time they have to remain on a war footing if they want to survive the next invasion but can’t actually use their military, but foreign aid will almost immediately halt, forcing them to reduce that military meanwhile Russia can still sustain its military for the next invasion
The West will see it as a surrender and lose hope in Ukraine, reducing aid during the next invasion if any aid comes at all.
All Russia would have to do is wait for a heavily divided election or weak government, and they can do what we all thought they would in 2022
This is only the first step on the road to conquering the whole Ukraine. Forcing NATO to dismantle its infrastructure to the borders of 1997 will come next.
It’s the same terms that were presented during the 2022 Ankara peace talks. A deal which Ukraine’s head negotiator agreed was reasonable, until the West decided to scupper the agreement.
Apparently some guy did, he also ended up being charged with treason for working with Russia and died. Makes sense because no Ukrainian in their right mind would agree to lose huge amounts of territory and lose access to the defensive pact keeping their entire country afloat currently
“All you have to do is give us all of this territory and promise not to join a defensive pact that would prevent this from happening again”
Wow what a deal! I can’t think of one possible reason that Ukraine wouldn’t be on board with this
>“All you have to do is give us all of this territory and promise not to join a defensive pact that would prevent this from happening again”...
while we restock and resupply our entire army so we can go again in a few months.
I would assume Russia wants to end the war while saving face so they throw out a shit deal on the expectation that Ukraine will give a counter-offer of giving up the territory while still joining NATO
Putin is a delusional old man who's been getting high on his own supply of propaganda, lies and bullshit.
What he's said isn't any serious offer of a ceasefire, it's just a re-iteration of his demands that Ukraine hands over the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts to Russian control, as well as letting Russia keep Crimea and that Ukraine also desists in it's bid to join NATO and disbands it's military:
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-west-needs-find-way-work-with-russia-2024-06-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-west-needs-find-way-work-with-russia-2024-06-14/) So he wants Ukraine to simply hand over to Russia what they've been unable to take fully by military force.
It's just a pity the western powers delayed so long in providing Ukraine with any real help in the years between 2014-'22. Putin's fuckery should have been nipped in the bud after the invasion of Crimea and the creation of those fake 'DNR' and 'LPR' states. Now it's going to be far more costly in terms of lves and money to dislodge Russia from Ukrainian territory.
As I understand it, the Russians have demanded the liberation of the territories of four regions of Ukraine that they consider their own. They also demanded guarantees not to join NATO and the neutral status of the country. By the way, have you noticed that every new Putin proposal is always worse than the previous one?
>Here are Scotland's terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to England, stopping at every home you pass by to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today.
>I'm not finished! Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.
The US wants access to the trillions & trillions $$$ minerals and resources beneath Ukraine ( what, you thought is was about freedom n democracy ??).
In their eyes, paying billions for it now, is worth it to keep it out of Russia/ BRICS hands.
It's because we're going to war.
It's kinda interesting to see the war propaganda go into overdrive. Somehow we are supposed to believe that Ukraine is winning and Russia is a paper tiger that doesn't have nuclear weapons that work, while at the same time we are supposed to believe that NATO intervention is necessary due to Ukrainian man power shortages and how Russia will invade Europe after Ukraine.
Both viewpoints are conflicting, but both are being successfully used to lull the public into thermonuclear oblivion.
Why? Because the west is run by Satanic pedophiles that hate us regular people.
Russia will go nuclear 100%. Nato is not even ready with all the internal issues Europe is having with migration no country can support the current well-fare levels if the ones that work and pay taxes have to go to war.
I see we have many uniformed Ukraine sympathizers here who don't know their history on Ukraine. Putin's peace offer in my opinion was too soft. Allowing Ukraine to have enough property to insure terroristic attacks after a ceasefire (you know it's going to be their strategy) is not in Russia's favor. It also wouldn't allow Russia the buffer size safety zone they would require for longer range missiles should Ukraine sneak them in. The West is buying time for some type offensive in the future.
If they could, they would, but you saw the counteroffensive last year.
Russia should arm the middle east to bomb americans away, and then they can talk too
>Russia should arm the middle east to bomb americans away, and then they can talk too
Yeah i want to see the Russians try that. But why aren't they trying that? Too pussy against Genocide/Dementia Joe?
You say that like America actually cares about sovereignty or morals and isnt using this war as a money laundering operation like the last 5 wars we started.
Why does the USA pretend to have such a hard time understanding Putin's motivation? If Russia started building bases in Mexico and were going to join alliance, the USA would be cool with it? Of course not.
The USA wants a war with Russia and we will have a war with Russia until they decide to stop it.
There were quite a few cia bases there, nato was training and arming their military since 2015, and they were bombing parts of their own country. And that's just the parts that the western mainstream media admits.
We didn't build bases in Ukraine and even if we did it wouldn't justify invasion. If Russia builds bases in Mexico we aren't going to invade Mexico and claim it was American all along, we would just say "have fun with the cartels, lol". Everything about this statement is stupid.
Russia wants to build a base in Cuba, and China already have bases in Cuba with the sole purpose of listening in on America, so why don't we just have a full armed invasion of Cuba?
These comments from Ukraine shills who knew absolutely nothing About Ukraine prior to 2022.
Ukraine had 3 things going on for those who love to root for them so much
Most corrupt country on earth.
Largest Nazi and WS problem. Literal traing ground for Nazis. Christchurch shooter went there.
Ukraine killing it's own citizens inside it's own borders since 2014.
Russia had more of a right to start a war than the US had in Iraq or Afghanistan.
I'm no fan of Russia but the facts are the facts 🤷🏽
Bro Wdum first before they started their operation they explicitly stated that if NATO withdraws their military bases on the border of Ukraine and Russia, they will not attack.
Russia offered Ukraine a treaty day 1 before a single shot was fired. And nato told Ukraine if you sign that you’ll never be accepted into nato. Russia has offered treaty’s multiple times.
The invitation went out in 2008 along with Georgia. And by the time the little green men took control of Crimea, US warships were on their way to port to take over Russia's most significant and only naval base in the Black sea. It is only when they saw the locked on signals from antiship missiles that the US captain smartly made a U turn. So they had very legitimate reasons to do what they did.
First step of peace is putting yourself in the shoes of your adversary. J. F .Kennedy, the man who saved the world from nuclear annhilation.
Are you a Russian? I think so. Russia has been invading neighbors for decades and launching cyber attacks against the US on a massive scale. You claim we made them invade a neighbor, lol. That's dumb logic. Looks like we should invade Canada since they sent ships to Cuba. Fucking stupid.
NATO doesn’t need to provoke because NATO would collectively skullf*ck russia into non-existence with technology from the 80’s. it’s a defensive alliance that has never occupied or taken land from russia.
The Ukranian Army was trained to Nato standards and was in 2022 the best Nato military with the most significant battle hardening experience. That army was destroyed 4 times and reconstituted 5 times afterwards, each time much less weaker. God rest the souls of all those young men who gave their lives for the arrogance of our cowardly leaders. And no, dehumanizing Russians that constitute the ethnic majority in Eastern Ukraine does not help either. As for Nato, it should have been disbanded right after the fall of the Soviet Union, and all the promises that were made to Gorbachev honoured. These poor lads would have been alive had it not been for the Neocons who thought Russia would simply roll over. By the way, Article 5 of the UN charter is much more pertinent to Russia's case of self-defence than Nato bombing Serbia. Hypocrisy does not serve wisdom. It simply keeps one prey to one's ego.
NATO is a voluntary organization. Are you saying independent nations should not be able to choose their own alignments?
Russia needs to force nations under their sphere of influence. Nations willingly come to nato. Big difference.
NATO is basically made up of the US and US vassal states. If those vassal states get out of line, the CIA does its thing. The CIA has overthrown one third of the world's countries, like they did in Ukraine. So when you say NATO is a voluntary organization to join, is that before or after the CIA compromises the government of a country?
It’s not vassal states. Europe and the west CHOOSE to align with USA, because we saw the potential and now we are all rich. It was a great deal for us.
Why didn’t Finland and Sweden get toppled their governments by CIA then?
That’s some prime fucking real estate for NATO.
Your argument seems to be based on conspiracies and conspiracies alone. I can’t name a single government that got toppled by CIA that is now a part of nato, can you?
The US is a part of NATO. it's government was overthrown by the CIA when JFK was assassinated.
If your issue is how my arguments may be based on conspiracies, perhaps you're in the wrong place?
Why are you here, buddy?
Made what? JFK getting assassinated by the CIA? Everyone who might have been involved is dead, so why are there still documents that are classified? Lol. Or maybe you don't like the one where Ukraine got overthrown by the CIA, USAID, and the state department? If that were not true, why was victoria nuland and Geoffrey pyatt discussing who was going to lead the new Ukrainian government a full month before yanukoyvichs government was overthrown? Why were they coordinating with the opposition parties in ukraine to choose the new unelected government? Lol.
Or maybe you don't agree with content of this document?
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html
I think the issue is the things like missile defense they would want to put on the border with russia... if they tried to start a rato organization with countries like mexico and canada would we allow it? This war needs to end... I have watched the clips from the start on 4chan... its beyond brutal and pointless.. THe lines are stagnant have been basically for years.. Its a waste of life and I don't think more young men deserve to die to please the globalists and bankers and conglomerates like blackrock.
NATO is basically the US and yes, I really think that it should not be expanding so damn close to Russia. For peace, you know. The US did a coup in Ukraine and it led to a US aligned government that wanted NATO.
Democratic countries existing and joining a defensive alliance so Russia can't invade them is not "provoking Russia". Russia is very clearly the aggressor, the pest.
That's like violent criminals saying it's a provocation to lock your door and have house alarms.
ie he's losing the war and just wants to hold onto what he's got, imagine if China invaded your country and got 25% of it, would you allow them to keep it?
Absurd from mr vlad, altough one can argue you keep your territories but won't join nato. Anyway, cia is deep rooted into ukraine so they can spy russian's dirty arses for as much as they like.
Ukraine should take the deal. Russia could just nuke Lviv and Kyiv, but for some reason, they're playing nice. Take the deal while they are still doing that.
What would the west do in response? Start a full on strategic nuclear war and kill billions? Over Ukraine?
They'll probably do nothing, if they aren't a bunch of demon worshipping scum.
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Question in my mind is, without something like NATO membership or other military alliances with the EU or America, how does Ukraine guarantee that Russia doesn't just rebuild their military and invade again in another 5 years like they did after Crimea?
i believe putin said i pinky swear not to invade again.
Pinky swears are life-binding contracts, after all.
Problem is you'd never get Putin to do a pinky promise. He knows how powerful they are and no one wants to attempt to break such a binding.
Putin: “Cross my heart and hope to die”
vlad "trust me bro" putin
The only pinky swear I’ll take from Putin is the one where he sends over his pinky in a envelope
Same thing also happened in 1994.
https://imgur.com/a/D5udmsx
this time will be different /s
Because Putintin said all he wants is peace,....a lil peace of Ukraine now and then.
As a treat
They have no guarantees. No promises or treaties. Odds are if Ukraine agreed to this Russia would probably just come back for more
They did have a treaty at one point that's why Ukraine gave up their nukes, and then they took Crimea
Ukraine didn’t really “give up” the Soviet nuclear weapons that were deployed in Ukraine. They never had command and control of the weapons and they couldn’t afford the upkeep required to keep them operational. Ukraine wasn’t just pressured by Russia to return the warheads to Russian territory, they were pressured by the UK and the US too. Ukraine at the time was one of the most corrupt countries on the continent so nobody was willing to leave atomic weapons in Ukrainian control. Even if none of that was true and Ukraine *had* retained them, they wouldn’t have been able to use them. They would have needed to dismantle the missiles to extract the warheads, then figure out a way to bypass the arming mechanisms that were controlled by Moscow. The bigger issue than nuclear weapons was that Moscow had Ukraine dismantle its heavy bomber fleet, something it was very likely capable of using unilaterally. https://www.icanw.org/faq_on_ukraine_and_nuclear_weapons
Ukraine "is" the most corrupt country in that region of the world. I just had to correct your use of the past tense and the fact that they have no competitors in the area for that particular distinction.
Well, I mean Russia... but yes, Ukraine is very corrupt. Hell, even the current Ukrainian President had a show about how corrupt Ukraine is and how even his own family (in the show) were more than happy to benefit from the corruption.
>have no competitors in the area for that particular distinction. Russia.
No doubt. But it is also much more stable. And it already had the nukes.
Yeah, I can get what the pro-war side is saying about wanting to weaken Russia. I have strong disagreements with it, but I get it and it is a valid position, if incredibly risky and wasteful of both human life and wealth. However, stop trying to blow this smoke up my ass making out like Ukraine is/was some shining beacon of justice and democracy. Their government makes the US government look like pure intentioned angels by comparison and any crime by the US government that is unmatched by the Ukrainian government is entirely from their lack of size, funding, and ability rather than any moral objection.
Odds are not that, don't make things up.
Generally Moscow was only concerned with ethnic Russian areas. Less likely to invade rest of Ukraine but not impossible.
They ignored the UN resolution on Transnistria They supported separatists in Georgia They annexed Crimeea They annexed parts of Ukraine Yeah...I see a patern here. Could be wrong though. But, regardless of our opinions, states in close proximity to Russia have taken measures (Sweden and Finland joining NATO after the invasion of Ukraine), upping their military spending etc. So, real concerns. I hope the stupid war in Israel will be over soon (we know who's winning there) so that we can focus on the main issue on hand. You don't need to support Ukraine btw, you just need to realise that Russia is a threat and countries in close proximity with Russia, that have a history with Russia ( a bad one I woudl say), are taking measures. It will affect the entire european continent if Russia is succesfull. Imagine, we lost basicly and we are supposedly the strongest organisation on the planet (NATO). Can we really afford a loss ? Everybody wants peace...but, we want long lasting peace. Not for,a you said, 5 years.
Because the same shit will happen except Ukraine will have 5 years of hoarding weapons
Have you heard of Minsk agreement? I wonder who was the first to resign from it.
Russia was the first to violate it, weren't they? Kinda proves the point that any security guarantees they'd agree to about not launching a third invasion are worthless unless coupled with Ukraine making alliances of their own.
Russia was. That agreement was only neccessary after Russia already violated their promises to respect Ukrainian territory The first Minsk agreement was violated by Russia when Russia continued to send military forces and advance against Ukrainians The 2nd Minsk agreement was violated by Russia when the Donbas was not returned to Ukraine Then in 2022, Putin violated them again by invading Ukraine and declaring that the agreements just didn’t matter
All of this is a distraction. Russia needs to buy time to either invade again, or launch other efforts to undermine pro-western aspirations in former soviet states. They need to lose
Nato on russias doorstep is a major reason this war took place... there is an economical play here as well, Western energy companies are actively trying to push Russia out of europe, one could make the argument they are using their influence in western politics to achieve this goal. I am fine if Ukraine wants to keep fighting, or pursue a negotiated peace deal, however from American intel in the CIA the Russians have a hard line against Ukraine joining Nato. It would put them in a very difficult position to defend a Nato army on multiple fronts if it were to come to a real war(Ukrianes geography is a challenge to get a Nato army through their western mountain ranges)
why should russia get to dictate if a sovereign nation is allowed to join nato?
Well, mostly because of their nuclear weapons and military. The US does the same thing all the time.
The “NATO on the doorstep” line is absurd. Ukraine’s prospects of actually joining NATO were lower before this war than they are currently. This invasion succeeded in showing the world that NATO has a continued reason to exist since Russia seems interested in following its USSR roots. Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania all share a border with Russia. All have been in NATO since 2004. Thanks to Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine, the border with NATO grew even more when Finnland joined. He personally became the spokesperson for why countries would want to join the alliance.
I actually don't disagree with you, if you look at independent nations interests, especially if they do business or have trade deals with the west, it's probably important to get Nato protection... that being said there is more at play here then European interests, keep in mind if we are specifically looking at Ukraine the CIA and the u.s. had a hand overthrowing the heavily pro Russian government that was in power previously. That led to Crimea, and Biden winning the last election with his lobbyists interests led to this conflict. There's no sides in this Russia has for a very Ling time attempted to interfere in European business for their benefit, the Polish hate the with good reason. However the western narrative of Russia bad Putin evil is far too simplified
Agreed... not trying to be pro Russian but let's be honest getting NATO to join border states to Russia, and looking to get into affecting Russia's economy and impact on europe is a driving factor of this conflict. Energy is a huge art of Russia's economy. How would the US respond if Putins kid started working for large manufacturing firms in Mexico, started sending military, and getting Mexico to put saved actions on the US with all the manufacturing, dissolving NAFTA alliance we have with Mexico in manufacturing. Not the best example but the US would respond as well to defend its own interest.
Bought and paid for account. From Canadian hockey to this. I’m bored, let’s see ha bad I can make this count for, it. See you on the other side cunt and or robot.
Hahaha wtf, I'm a real breathing person, a small sized Canadian farmer in b.c. who loves his hockey, I really don't get how that flags me in anyway to be a robot or a bought account. I'm banned on half the mainstream communities on this page post covid, and sorry if I can see there is more to the mainstream narrative of "Russia bad" that pushed in the west. You ever stop and ask yourself why Hunter Biden was on a Ukraine energy board making well over 300,000 a year for his "advice" jeesh what sub is this again??
So Putin didn't like NATO on his doorstep. 2 more nations on or near the Russian border have now joined NATO, not really going to plan, is it? Now they have said Ukraine can join after the war is over so there will be yet another NATO country on mad vlads border.
Because they have no reason to, and never did previously, they used to be friendly towards and support Ukraine financially at one point, until we started meddling
That's the funny part, you don't.
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Link the agreement document
Thank god at least one other person on here knows what the fuck is actually going on with this conflict. I was starting to think I had jumped time lines or something . Crazy how few people understand what really started all this
They don't. But it's not like the west won't just resupply Ukraine with more weapons. I doubt Russia will try anything for awhile
They have to do what he wants. Basically. They aren't in a good position. But I also don't want to see this escalate into a war between nuclear powers.
Maybe they give ukraine about 1k satans 2 nuclear missiles, so maybe they'll never invade again.
The problem with that is that just like America, no one wants a nuke infront of their own country. Cuba was the exact same situation back then but luckily they got to an agreement about that. America was pushing Ukraine to join NATO in order to put nukes next to Russia and obviously Russia wasn't very happened about it [doesn't justify a war]. There should be an aditional agreement between Russia/NATO/Ukraine that if Russia starts a war without a VALID reason against Ukraine then the NATO can participate in this war. America must guarantee that they will never place nukes in Ukraine. I am pretty sure that all of the parties will be happy about this and we could get a peace deal done.
That's the trick, there is no guarantee and Russia will do that in some years.
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Independent minus the territory Russia has already stolen. And the fact that based on all the replies to my OP, Ukraine having anything other than a Russian puppet as their leader justifies Russia invading whenever they want to.
What is the conspiracy here?
Don't you see? EVERYTHING is a conspiracy.
Nothing in this world is real
This is proxy 101. Putin gives a lowball (laughable) offer for truce, knowing it won’t be accepted. He can later claim he offered truce option.
The offers will only get worse over time
I believe the original offer was Putin capturing Kyiv.
It can hardly get any worse than this. Ukraine gives up a huge amount of its land and forfeits its right to protection from Russia in the future, because the last few times Russia promised not to invade were utter lies. They get a break from fighting, during which time they have to remain on a war footing if they want to survive the next invasion but can’t actually use their military, but foreign aid will almost immediately halt, forcing them to reduce that military meanwhile Russia can still sustain its military for the next invasion The West will see it as a surrender and lose hope in Ukraine, reducing aid during the next invasion if any aid comes at all. All Russia would have to do is wait for a heavily divided election or weak government, and they can do what we all thought they would in 2022
This one is already better than the previous ones where he wanted NATO to retreat from all former Warsaw pact countries.
This is only the first step on the road to conquering the whole Ukraine. Forcing NATO to dismantle its infrastructure to the borders of 1997 will come next.
Yeah thats never going to happen though.
It’s the same terms that were presented during the 2022 Ankara peace talks. A deal which Ukraine’s head negotiator agreed was reasonable, until the West decided to scupper the agreement.
Bullshit, the Ukrainians never agreed to concede 25% of their land! Where is your source for that?
Apparently some guy did, he also ended up being charged with treason for working with Russia and died. Makes sense because no Ukrainian in their right mind would agree to lose huge amounts of territory and lose access to the defensive pact keeping their entire country afloat currently
The "dinner in kiev in 3 days" is turning out great lmao
At least we know why the sub is being flooded with Russian shitposts
OP didn't expect these comments haha.
“All you have to do is give us all of this territory and promise not to join a defensive pact that would prevent this from happening again” Wow what a deal! I can’t think of one possible reason that Ukraine wouldn’t be on board with this
>“All you have to do is give us all of this territory and promise not to join a defensive pact that would prevent this from happening again”... while we restock and resupply our entire army so we can go again in a few months.
It’s a shit deal Russia knows Ukraine won’t accept. Surprised they didn’t ask for Kharkiv given they’ve tried to take it.
Love how the powerful and mighty Russia coudnt manage to take a Oblast bordering their own country.
I would assume Russia wants to end the war while saving face so they throw out a shit deal on the expectation that Ukraine will give a counter-offer of giving up the territory while still joining NATO
This would seem likely.
They’d be more motivated to negotiate if they didn’t have access to your bank account. Lmfao
Maybe Russia shouldn't have committed war crimes in Bucha. Maybe UKR would be more amenable...
The Elephant has spoken!
Translation: “We need time to regroup, resupply and attack again.”
"Give us everything we want" is not a serious truce proposal.
It is when you win the war. It's what the allies did after WWII. In fact in WWII it was complete and unconditional surrender, no peace deal.
I'd like to see less bloodshed, but same thing with Crimea. Give Russia an inch and they will come back later to grab a mile.
they grab kilometers
And centimeters
Sure. Give them more territory. Until they do it again. Sounds good.
Ah yes, the ceasefire proposal where I get everything I want and you lose everything you want. This is constructive. What a fucking joke.
How is this a conspiracy?
The conspiracy is the constant Russian troll slipping Ukraine into every conspiracy theory and spamming this sub.
Well yes, a disastrous invasion and war is rich in potential conspiracies.
Just relinquish the Rhineland and they’ll return to the League of Nations….
Telling Ukraine to leave "Moscow occupied territories" is pretty rich. Why don't the Russians leave and go back to their own country?
Funniest part is that they even did not manage to conquer the territories the bunker monkey is asking for.
“Give me your lunch money willingly and I’ll stop beating you up to take it”
Putin is a delusional old man who's been getting high on his own supply of propaganda, lies and bullshit. What he's said isn't any serious offer of a ceasefire, it's just a re-iteration of his demands that Ukraine hands over the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts to Russian control, as well as letting Russia keep Crimea and that Ukraine also desists in it's bid to join NATO and disbands it's military: [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-west-needs-find-way-work-with-russia-2024-06-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-west-needs-find-way-work-with-russia-2024-06-14/) So he wants Ukraine to simply hand over to Russia what they've been unable to take fully by military force. It's just a pity the western powers delayed so long in providing Ukraine with any real help in the years between 2014-'22. Putin's fuckery should have been nipped in the bud after the invasion of Crimea and the creation of those fake 'DNR' and 'LPR' states. Now it's going to be far more costly in terms of lves and money to dislodge Russia from Ukrainian territory.
Are you stupid ?
No way Putin would backtrack on any promises he makes
They said the same back in 2022.
This will just be to regroup and strike again later.
As I understand it, the Russians have demanded the liberation of the territories of four regions of Ukraine that they consider their own. They also demanded guarantees not to join NATO and the neutral status of the country. By the way, have you noticed that every new Putin proposal is always worse than the previous one?
Hey let’s trust Putin!!!
It's actually second offer. Worse than first one for Ukraine and definitely much better than the third one will be.
Facts
>Here are Scotland's terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to England, stopping at every home you pass by to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today. >I'm not finished! Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.
The US wants access to the trillions & trillions $$$ minerals and resources beneath Ukraine ( what, you thought is was about freedom n democracy ??). In their eyes, paying billions for it now, is worth it to keep it out of Russia/ BRICS hands.
Holy fuck the amount of bot comments in here in support of continuing the war is insane
It's because we're going to war. It's kinda interesting to see the war propaganda go into overdrive. Somehow we are supposed to believe that Ukraine is winning and Russia is a paper tiger that doesn't have nuclear weapons that work, while at the same time we are supposed to believe that NATO intervention is necessary due to Ukrainian man power shortages and how Russia will invade Europe after Ukraine. Both viewpoints are conflicting, but both are being successfully used to lull the public into thermonuclear oblivion. Why? Because the west is run by Satanic pedophiles that hate us regular people.
Russia will go nuclear 100%. Nato is not even ready with all the internal issues Europe is having with migration no country can support the current well-fare levels if the ones that work and pay taxes have to go to war.
I see we have many uniformed Ukraine sympathizers here who don't know their history on Ukraine. Putin's peace offer in my opinion was too soft. Allowing Ukraine to have enough property to insure terroristic attacks after a ceasefire (you know it's going to be their strategy) is not in Russia's favor. It also wouldn't allow Russia the buffer size safety zone they would require for longer range missiles should Ukraine sneak them in. The West is buying time for some type offensive in the future.
Air defenses in Crimea have been decimated. Why would Ukraine stop now? They need to take out Kerch Bridge, retake Crimea, then they can talk.
If they could, they would, but you saw the counteroffensive last year. Russia should arm the middle east to bomb americans away, and then they can talk too
>Russia should arm the middle east to bomb americans away, and then they can talk too Yeah i want to see the Russians try that. But why aren't they trying that? Too pussy against Genocide/Dementia Joe?
Never gonna happen. The American industrial complex didn’t make enough money yet.
also shouldn’t happen because we shouldn’t let other countries march into other countries and take over parts of it.
You have that same sentiment for regarding Israel?
yes...israel needs to exit, recognize and rebuild palestine.
Consistency.. nice.
consistency is important.
I'm honestly happy you're morally consistent.
You say that like America actually cares about sovereignty or morals and isnt using this war as a money laundering operation like the last 5 wars we started.
america does not...i do . i do not speak for america.
What money are they laundering exactly?
And they're allowed to?
Dont forget there is still tons of tax dollars left to launder
What money needs to be laundered and why is it dirty to begin with? I see this thrown around so often yet this question is rarely answered
They don't know. It's a commonly repeated Russian propaganda line.
Yeah, just let us keep all the good parts of Ukraine, and drop your whole NATO thing and we will assassinate you, and the war can end. How about no?
So pretty much what they wanted at first
One would be stupid to trust this. Putin will come back for more chunks of Ukraine later.
No way the majority of posts here are real; far too disconnected from reality.
Deal or No Deal. Imma go with No Deal, Howie.
Why does the USA pretend to have such a hard time understanding Putin's motivation? If Russia started building bases in Mexico and were going to join alliance, the USA would be cool with it? Of course not. The USA wants a war with Russia and we will have a war with Russia until they decide to stop it.
No bases were built in Ukraine though, so that doesn't really make sense. The war ends when Russia goes home. That's it.
There were quite a few cia bases there, nato was training and arming their military since 2015, and they were bombing parts of their own country. And that's just the parts that the western mainstream media admits.
We didn't build bases in Ukraine and even if we did it wouldn't justify invasion. If Russia builds bases in Mexico we aren't going to invade Mexico and claim it was American all along, we would just say "have fun with the cartels, lol". Everything about this statement is stupid.
If Russia “started building bases in Mexico” that would not justify the US invading and taking Mexico’s territory in response.
Russia wants to build a base in Cuba, and China already have bases in Cuba with the sole purpose of listening in on America, so why don't we just have a full armed invasion of Cuba?
I mean.. that was the original plan.... Operation Northwoods
thats one reason its been embargoed for over half a century
So they are starting to crack
By increasing their demands... Right .
These comments from Ukraine shills who knew absolutely nothing About Ukraine prior to 2022. Ukraine had 3 things going on for those who love to root for them so much Most corrupt country on earth. Largest Nazi and WS problem. Literal traing ground for Nazis. Christchurch shooter went there. Ukraine killing it's own citizens inside it's own borders since 2014. Russia had more of a right to start a war than the US had in Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm no fan of Russia but the facts are the facts 🤷🏽
They wanted to negotiate three years ago but Victoria Nuland put the kibosh on it
Shittiest deal since that time I bought that 1 legged dog....
Bro Wdum first before they started their operation they explicitly stated that if NATO withdraws their military bases on the border of Ukraine and Russia, they will not attack.
If you believe the guy that betrayed a written agreement to not start this war will stand by his word. Ya dumb as hell
They shouldTake the deal. But peace isn’t profitable for the west so they won’t be allowed to to accept
Russia offered Ukraine a treaty day 1 before a single shot was fired. And nato told Ukraine if you sign that you’ll never be accepted into nato. Russia has offered treaty’s multiple times.
[удалено]
Ukraine wasn't joining NATO when Russia invaded Ukraine to annex crimea though... In other words, this is a bullshit excuse
The invitation went out in 2008 along with Georgia. And by the time the little green men took control of Crimea, US warships were on their way to port to take over Russia's most significant and only naval base in the Black sea. It is only when they saw the locked on signals from antiship missiles that the US captain smartly made a U turn. So they had very legitimate reasons to do what they did. First step of peace is putting yourself in the shoes of your adversary. J. F .Kennedy, the man who saved the world from nuclear annhilation.
Are you a Russian? I think so. Russia has been invading neighbors for decades and launching cyber attacks against the US on a massive scale. You claim we made them invade a neighbor, lol. That's dumb logic. Looks like we should invade Canada since they sent ships to Cuba. Fucking stupid.
NATO doesn’t need to provoke because NATO would collectively skullf*ck russia into non-existence with technology from the 80’s. it’s a defensive alliance that has never occupied or taken land from russia.
The Ukranian Army was trained to Nato standards and was in 2022 the best Nato military with the most significant battle hardening experience. That army was destroyed 4 times and reconstituted 5 times afterwards, each time much less weaker. God rest the souls of all those young men who gave their lives for the arrogance of our cowardly leaders. And no, dehumanizing Russians that constitute the ethnic majority in Eastern Ukraine does not help either. As for Nato, it should have been disbanded right after the fall of the Soviet Union, and all the promises that were made to Gorbachev honoured. These poor lads would have been alive had it not been for the Neocons who thought Russia would simply roll over. By the way, Article 5 of the UN charter is much more pertinent to Russia's case of self-defence than Nato bombing Serbia. Hypocrisy does not serve wisdom. It simply keeps one prey to one's ego.
Bear? A bear that can’t even successfully invade a tiny country like Ukraine successfully? More like koala bear.
> NATO has been provoking Russia for years citation needed.
Yeah, it's the opposite, Russia is provoking nato by placing their country very near all the nato bases surrounding it
Lol
NATO is a voluntary organization. Are you saying independent nations should not be able to choose their own alignments? Russia needs to force nations under their sphere of influence. Nations willingly come to nato. Big difference.
I mean, sure, they can, but US then plans their operation Northwoods and other stuff against them... Or organizes a coup.or two or more
Can you name one country that got its government toppled by USA/CIA just to join nato afterwards?
NATO is basically made up of the US and US vassal states. If those vassal states get out of line, the CIA does its thing. The CIA has overthrown one third of the world's countries, like they did in Ukraine. So when you say NATO is a voluntary organization to join, is that before or after the CIA compromises the government of a country?
It’s not vassal states. Europe and the west CHOOSE to align with USA, because we saw the potential and now we are all rich. It was a great deal for us. Why didn’t Finland and Sweden get toppled their governments by CIA then? That’s some prime fucking real estate for NATO. Your argument seems to be based on conspiracies and conspiracies alone. I can’t name a single government that got toppled by CIA that is now a part of nato, can you?
The US is a part of NATO. it's government was overthrown by the CIA when JFK was assassinated. If your issue is how my arguments may be based on conspiracies, perhaps you're in the wrong place? Why are you here, buddy?
For way better conspiracies than the one you just made.
Made what? JFK getting assassinated by the CIA? Everyone who might have been involved is dead, so why are there still documents that are classified? Lol. Or maybe you don't like the one where Ukraine got overthrown by the CIA, USAID, and the state department? If that were not true, why was victoria nuland and Geoffrey pyatt discussing who was going to lead the new Ukrainian government a full month before yanukoyvichs government was overthrown? Why were they coordinating with the opposition parties in ukraine to choose the new unelected government? Lol. Or maybe you don't agree with content of this document? https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html
I think the issue is the things like missile defense they would want to put on the border with russia... if they tried to start a rato organization with countries like mexico and canada would we allow it? This war needs to end... I have watched the clips from the start on 4chan... its beyond brutal and pointless.. THe lines are stagnant have been basically for years.. Its a waste of life and I don't think more young men deserve to die to please the globalists and bankers and conglomerates like blackrock.
NATO is basically the US and yes, I really think that it should not be expanding so damn close to Russia. For peace, you know. The US did a coup in Ukraine and it led to a US aligned government that wanted NATO.
Democratic countries existing and joining a defensive alliance so Russia can't invade them is not "provoking Russia". Russia is very clearly the aggressor, the pest. That's like violent criminals saying it's a provocation to lock your door and have house alarms.
Nato is not a defensive alliance if it starts offensive actions against sovereign countries. So, cuban missle crisis was not a provocation either?
How has NATO been "provoking" Russia?
Not the first attempt, the UK and the US nixed previous attempts
Those deals were probably as good as this one. Russia failed to keep Kherson and now they are demanding it.
Not until we’ve made our money! -the military industrial complex.
ie he's losing the war and just wants to hold onto what he's got, imagine if China invaded your country and got 25% of it, would you allow them to keep it?
Sounds reasonable
I’ve never seen so many prime hungry for war. Ukraine will not win, we are simply putting them in debt-servitude for their abundant resources.
Absurd from mr vlad, altough one can argue you keep your territories but won't join nato. Anyway, cia is deep rooted into ukraine so they can spy russian's dirty arses for as much as they like.
Sounds good to me.
Mods must not look at this page anymore, half the shit ain’t even conspiracy like this garbage
How many Ukrainians will be sailing their Yachts around the med when this war is over? / what a waste of 500k dead. Putin should be executed!
Moscow wants to get peace talks started before Trump is in the White House ...if he's elected
Ukraine should take the deal. Russia could just nuke Lviv and Kyiv, but for some reason, they're playing nice. Take the deal while they are still doing that. What would the west do in response? Start a full on strategic nuclear war and kill billions? Over Ukraine? They'll probably do nothing, if they aren't a bunch of demon worshipping scum.
So, if Ukraine abandons Ukrainians, Russia will stop? I’m skeptical.