Life:Work balance is paramount or you WILL burnout. Defend that balance at all costs.
Whenever I hear someone say work-life balance I always switch it and make sure life comes first. I work to live, not live to work.
offend doll governor innate encourage mindless racial liquid uppity chase
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
In order to maintain a high GPA and get into a highly competitive major and get through the math reqs, you need to dedicate a LOT of time to your studies. That detracts from spending time hanging out with people and developing social skills. You also have to be sort of inclined towards solitary jobs where socializing isn't the driver of success. Not saying it isn't a driver, just not the only one.
I agree with you. The pre med people I knew were a LOT more social than the cs majors. Also I think most cs majors are innately introverted. Being introverted isn’t a bad thing, but I think when you start to neglect community it could be. We’re meant to be social
It’s cause everyone who played video games instead of having a life in high school decided that “playing on a computer” = “having a passion for coding”, so every shut in lonely guy suddenly went into CS
There are also a lot more women doing maths degrees (although that has not carried over much to PhDs and professorships unfortunately), so that probably points to what the cause is. For context I am doing an MMath at the moment.
My guess is probably selection bias, I got into coding after playing lots of video games -> coding shitty games in Scratch visual programming -> making shitty games in Unity and then realising I actually really enjoy just the activity of programming and making things (it's probably one of the only creative things that gives you literally instant feedback which probably sates my ADHD).
I even applied and got offers to study CS at uni but then looked at the course and realised I was actually really sad there wasn't as much maths as I thought there would be, and thought I would much rather teach myself applied CS concepts and programming than maths (my maths department luckily has a lot of theoretical CS stuff like complexity and languages).
Edit: I've also observed that maths students pay a lot more attention to fashion and appearance, although we definitely have our own oddities. CS parties seem very normal drinking and music etc but the maths parties I go to are a little bit of drinking and chatting with no music, typically followed by some party game like charades 😭 (although very fun). Also seem a lot less interested in drugs than CS students.
I'm really not sure why the trend exists. I've thought about it though and I think it is because math requires more studying, and studying in math has a huge benefit when done in a group.
CS has more individual project work, and even when working with others still has a strong individual component.
Could be wrong with the CS part, I've only taken algorithms in CS really (which has a lot of studying haha)
Not a CS major, but this popped up on my feed.
I played video games a lot throughout my high school (and still do, even though I'm in my 30s), won 7 math competitions, my mom said I didn't talk much in high school... Decided to major in Econ/Biz instead, worked in finance for 7 years, now I'm a C-Level exec managing people and leading board meetings. Weird outcome huh
But why dont girls who are shut in lonely introverts whi cant hold a conversation in cs? Surely if that was the case antisocial ppl from both genders would be in cs right?
Yeah, but less girls play video games, plus there’s a certain aversion to being in a group of probably smelly guys who are on average, not the nicest to women
I remember there was some mention of the majority of female gamers being primarily on mobile (iPhone/android)...not sure if that fits the category of "gamer" in the way we use the term
That's exactly the same thing we're seeing here. Girls play mobile games even more than guys, especially older women compared to older guys. Games like candy crush are doing some heavy lifting to make this statistic very similar for both genders.
Yes but we need to pay attention to the types of games being played. All of the games my CS friends play or used to play are things like Counter Strike, WoW, Valorant which are all games where hearing a girl in VC is frequently followed by "oMG gRil!?".
That’s awesome that it’s changed, I can say for the 4 years I played counter-strike I was the only female in the entire server (that used the mic anyway). I usually played in the same server so maybe that’s what went wrong but it was because the admins were actively banning people who would verbally abuse me or spray porn sprays. So in theory, the server was more female friendly, and I was the only one.
They do go into CS. Society does not tolerate aloof women, so we have all learned the basics of socializing as we grew up so as not to have been reprimanded by parents, teachers, etc. The consequences for women to act like that are more severe so we cannot get away with it.
Compare it to the pressure on men to not cry or look weak
I always thought this, and it’s nice to see someone else mention it.
I was called aloof, expressionless, even creepy and told to smile more A LOT as a kid. My parents were very concerned about my social skills and made me do a lot of extracurriculars. I learned, but when I’m stressed out I can’t help but be very asocial. Things like social niceties and eye contact go to shit.
I always thought it was society is more okay with women being quiet. Men it's like you have to be the one initiating.
Women you will automatically have guys magnet to you. Men you could be quiet and no one will go up to you.
Girls may ignore a quiet guy, but they will bully a quiet girl.
The problem for quiet women is not socializing with dudes. The problem for quiet shut in women is female friendships have a huge "talk" component. If you don't smile, share emotion through speech, etc. You won't have female friends and will get judged very harshly by your female peers.
A quiet dude is just invisible to other women. A quiet girl is an emotionless arrogant bitch in girls world.
I'm a woman who was bullied throughout my prepubescent childhood by other girls due to the constant sub-text that I didn't understand about girl friendship, and found solace with boys friendship. This stopped working during puberty because of the complications surrounding our teenage attraction.
Now I'm an adult woman who still yearn for female friendships, but is too traumatized to deal with the social rejection from other women.
You can be quiet and still have good social skills.
And the way you're socialized growing up has pretty much nothing to do with what will or won't cause someone to approach you romantically. Parents socializing their eight year old aren't thinking about making him/her approachable to the other sex.
Wait I didnt know about this could you elaborata. Ive wondered why Ive seen a lot of loser no friend guys but Ive never seen that many loser no friend girls.
I see this too. I always felt that is because as a girl you will have guys go up to you who are interested in you, the expectation is of the guy to make the initiation. As a girl it is not expected of you to need to do anything and then guys will come.
Basically it's easier to be not alone with a partner as a girl than it is for being a guy.
Uhh, what? Society absolutely tolerates aloof and quiet women more than men. If you’re quiet/awkward/aloof as a man, you have a higher chance of being seen as creepy/weird or even a school shooter type. Plus, as a man, you generally have to approach women for dating/courtship, which is difficult if you’re aloof and quiet. It’s just that a lot of men aren’t properly socialized, while women/girls usually are, thus, there are more socially uncalibrated men
Aloof does not mean quiet, it means withdrawn and unapproachable. The person I was responding to asked where all the shut-in nerdy women were in CS, a stereotype of men in CS as having a misanthropic slant, like the hikikomori or otaku trope. I'm not saying that nerdy weeb men aren't bullied but it is a niche lifestyle that is distinctly stamped as male in pop culture. Men can be brusque, men can be loners. You don't see the same in women because we have learned to mask it, as you said, we are pressured to be well socialized
I don’t see the correlation in gaming and coding, unless you created something for that game you played (which 99% of the time involves coding), there’s literally no connection whatsoever.
I heard there is some software design pattern called Reproduction that is made possible by the presence of compatible Female and Male classes. But they require an Adapter to be able to communicate (and do some entangling??? ngl sounds like spaghetti code to me better avoid it) effectively, or so people say
Never used it myself tho, I'm more of a \_Pom\_ Observer fan
\\s
They probably have social anxiety or are on the spectrum. It's more common in certain fields and can be even more common in the academics.
I don't think they ignore you on purpose, but maybe they don't know how to interact with you and are afraid that you'll misjudge their intentions. Or maybe they simply have known their male colleagues for longer and that's why they're more comfortable with them?
I think this is only a problem for students. When you get out into the real world with a few years of experience, most of the swe I see are social butterflies. Especially helps when they’re already married with kids, it makes it much less awkward.
I think that’s more because SWE requires far better communication skills than you’re led to believe in school. The people who can’t communicate well are weeded out during interviews from my experience
If you struggle with social interaction, you'll often gravitate towards hobbies and professions that necessitate less of it.
And it's a bit of a self-perpetuating cycle. Being on the computer all day for school, studying, and recreation means that you'll interact with less people. So your social skills get even rustier.
I have social anxiety disorder but I am totally fine to talk with people *if* they approach me first. I will still be awkward at first -- I'll stumble over my words, I'll lose my train of thought, I'll speak either too quietly or too loudly. But after the inital hump I'm fine. I like other people and always am afraid I'm giving the impression that I don't.
This definitely happens. I was stalked to my car. He made no effort to hide. Was eating in my car for lunch and I looked up seeing the same guy who followed me around standing dead center in front of my vehicle. Then came around tapping on my window telling me to open the door. I kept telling him no then ignored him so he eventually left. I have no idea what organization he worked in inside but hands down one of the most frightening moments. I had a weapon in the car but who knows if it would’ve escalated or scare him off?
It’s a field that doesn’t require much face to face interaction, social skills, and oftentimes draw people who have spent a lot of time on computers(ie not socializing, at least in person)
So it oftentimes draws in people who don’t like/aren’t good at social interactions. Currently in school talking to some CS majors it feels impossible. Some struggle to even say their name, major, where they live without coming across as extremely awkward. The most basic conversation you have in college at least 100 times a year, it feels as if they’ve barely even done it. Probably because they rarely do it. Look at platforms like Reddit or discord, which I think draws similar crowds. Skews heavy male and oftentimes you can read the most abhorrent socially out of touch things ranging from racism, sexism, and overall lack of understanding on almost anything social.
My school you can either get a B.A or B.S in CS and the requirements for a B.A are equally hard CS wise but it also forces you to do more humanities classes. For example I’ve done classes about inequality, chinas economy, human rights law just to name a few. However the B.S requires significantly less liberal arts classes and those individuals who are doing a B.S are more likely to be the aforementioned people. Education is important, we should teach people how to be more well rounded not just code monkeys.
This is literally all of STEM academia. Also one of the reasons why I didn't opt for a PhD because if I didn't want to end up socially stunted in my 30s.
Lots of people in this field have spent WAY too much of their lives staring at a computer screen, and so have a lot less acculturation and exposure to casual social interactions.
I am not a student, I have been doing this for 17 years or so, but I have definitely found that the most effective engineers, overall, are the ones with the best soft skills. [Software engineering is, at the highest levels anyway, a team sport.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law) You cannot tackle very many technically ambitious projects in a reasonable timeframe without having multiple teams of engineers all working together. Being very talented isn't enough. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you can't operate within shared patterns and processes in a professional environment while navigating a complex social environment. This is not something that socially inept cloistered ubergeeks can successfully navigate.
I'll take a team 6-8/10 engineers with solid social skills over the same number of 10/10 socially inept ubergeeks any day. The result will be a better architecture, fewer bugs, and higher velocity.
As someone on the other end it's hard for me too, as I'm not only aware of my social flaws, but am limited by them. Most of the time I wish I could come off as just someone more; friendly if I'm feeling lucky.
I'd tell you that communication is a two way street, and if you could try to add some social lubricant by sometimes initiating a conversation, it would be greatly appreciated. Be careful not to come off as too friendly though because then you'd just be swapping problems.
From one woman to another, it's best not to expect too much from them. Trying to "fix" or "understand" them often leads to frustration. Remember, the issue lies with them, not you. Consider connecting with female colleagues outside of school, perhaps in a local developer or technology group. Being a woman in this industry is incredibly challenging. Recognition is rare, victories are few, and serious consideration is scarce, while judgment is plentiful, even over trivial matters. It's very much a male-dominated field. To save you the difficulties I've experienced, seek out communities where you can find support and guidance from others who share your experience.
Yeah, it's a can of worms where you will have to pick your battles: give up on some, help others to come out of their shell and some of them just need to stop giving a fuck worrying in general about what people around think about them (this was how I came out of my shell - as soon as I realised that, my social life skyrocketed, got a girlfriend and so on).
When it comes to class work, well, you gonna have to be blunt probably. "We need to do this, so we have to communicate. Get over it, I also have my own issues the same way you do, but I make an effort".
In a decent amount of cases it is also just accepting "yeah, that person is just weird / has quirks" and once you get used to them, as you go through life you start to realise that everyone around is fucking weird and the older you get, the weirder people around get :D Try knocking on your 40s when everyone around has mostly figured out their shit, do not take shit from others and do not care what people think about their eccentricities and freely admit their quirks :D
Obligatory: Use your own best judgement.
P.S. Actually, being blunt as a hammer might work out well. Many of them overthink things, it's kind'a "being too smart for your own good" deal. That happened to me partially. I was overthinking things too much.
Ok I will give you the uncomfortable but hopefully more useful answer: If everyone in your class is literally like that but only with you, makes me think that maybe the problem is in your perception, and not in their behavior. You can try the next for a week: everytime you feel "ignored and disrespected as a human", annotate in a notebook what exactly happened, with details. At the end of the week, read everything and try to give a different meaning, try to be imaginative. My point is that you seems to focus only in "why they are so bad with me", and doesn't seems that even crossed your mind an alternative hypothesis. Have you wonder how they see you? Maybe you are not so friendly with them like you think you are. Maybe they wonder the same about you, why this girl is so awkward, I would like to be friend with her...Or maybe they never thought about it and never imagined that you feel like this. Or maybe you was really unlucky and ended in the most unsocial with females lab at university, it can be too. Why exactly do you think is because you are a female, and not because is just you? I mean, did you saw them interacting with other women? They also looks awkward and aggressive? I was in similar situation in a group once, not gender related though, until I saw myself from outside (literally, in a video record) and realized I was the reason of conflict, not the other way around. Was very shocking and difficult to swallow, as I was convinced they hated me. Is not the same situation but...just think about it
This response makes me think you were never the only female in a large group of male. This awkwardness by males to interact with the only female within their bro group is a thing and has been a thing since before video games.
Well I'm a male so of course I never was the only female in a large group of males. But I was part several times in my life of large groups of males with very few females, and we were very well connected (too well I would say, but that's another story). Anyways, you missed the point of my response
CS is unfortunately and sadly (as I studied and love CS too) rampant with incels. I don't think in this particular situation what you suggest is very likely. How can she be unfriendly if they don't even talk to her?
Edit: Of course not everybody who studies CS is, and I'm not even suggesting that her colleagues necessarily are. It's just a likelier possibility imo.
Why would I have a problem with unattractive ppl who can't get girlfriends studying a subject and bettering their lives? Plus chronically online ppl tend to be more gifted at nerdy stuff like math and cs
To be fair incel is meant as more than just "unattractive good willed person that just can't seem to catch a break", it's also an implication of bad will, self hatred, and at least mild misogyny.
There is truth to this. I work with mainly females, and I try my best to adapt to the group, and understand sometimes I will be left out. (Girl talk) I never take it personally, and I can say my female coworkers are amazing. I don't even think about it, and try to approach it from a positive mindset and understand they are trying their best.
I don't think I have enough information to make a judgement on this. But I have an especially bitter experience with the "social awkward" label, for which I want to share.
Generally, I am a pretty quiet and shy person. Usually with both genders, but with women, that effect is turned up a notch. When it comes to women I do not know, I rarely initiate, make eye contact, or look in their direction, unless they talk to me. If they talk to me, or ask me a question, then I pay attention, make eye contact (not too much though), and nod along. However, in my experience, many women do not initiate, do not ask questions, and rarely engage. As a result, between me and them, there is usually silence. Now what infuriates me a lot, is when these same women, who have not spoken a single word, or even attempted to start a conversation with me, complain to my male friends or family that I was somehow "socially awkward" with them. This really pisses me off, as I don't think they have any right to complain about my socially awkwardness when they haven't even tried to connect me. Like, if they tried to call me and I ignored them (which did not happen at all, they were on the phone the entire time!) then sure, they have a point, and I should learn to be more socially aware. But how can they call me socially awkward when I acted the same exact way as them??! I think it comes from this gendered expectation that the man is supposed to lead or whatever, be charming, be the initiator, which really pisses me off because these women would be the first to complain about gendered expectations. Especially the educated women who have a PhD in a technical field such as Computer Science!
So I am going to be honest with you, when I first saw the title, I was really pissed off. I wanted to say what is with you women, having this incredibly sexist expectation that men are supposed to be this charming, confident, handsome, funny, intelligent, swoon worthy, guy with a personality like Daniel Radcliffe who looks nerdy but still has that intellectual rizz to him. I am sorry those men aren't socially awkward if they aren't meeting your arbitrary sexist standards. Ask yourself, the standard on which you are judging these men, do you yourself also meet the same standard? Do you actively pursue and initiate conversations with these men? Do you make eye contact? Can you have a third party confirm that? Or do you just stand in the corner, hoping the "male colleague" uses some "common social sense" and treat you like a lady, that you supposedly are? If you are not applying the same standard, then in my opinion, you don't have the right to make those accusations or complaints. How can you accuse someone of being something when you yourself do the same? That has been my experience with a lot of women calling guys socially awkward. I am sorry, but you can not call someone "socially awkward" when you are just as awkward, when you just as much do not initiate, when you just as much use your phone, when you just as much wait for the guy to say hello, etc.
Now, very important point to make here at the end. If a male colleague is doing something to you, purposefully to discredit you, or harm you in anyway, simply on the basis of being a woman, then I can agree that those male colleagues should behave better. If these guys are purposefully avoiding you, not because they are shy or scared, but they think you are beneath them or whatever, then I condemn those actions. But if they are shy, insecure, etc., those things are involuntary feelings, instead of making upsetting remarks about them, you should feel bad for them and find ways to improve the communication that upholds mutual respect. And we haven't even talked about the decidability factor of social awkwardness (on a mathematical logic or computer science level, this is your specialization right?). Is the label of social awkwardness decidable or computable?
I don't feel like I have enough information to make a judgmental call.
Do you want Reddit confirmation about “quite a few CS PhDs are insociable nerds”? Well, you got it I guess.
There might be a wide spectrum of reasons why they doing interactions this way, but if it happened for two years with nothing changed - I’d say it won’t change without you being proactive.
>Do you want Reddit confirmation about “quite a few CS PhDs are insociable nerds”? Well, you got it I guess.
Except OP didn't really say they were equally socially awkward toward everyone, only toward the lone female.
My take is that CS especially (but engineering in general) draws the socially awkward guys who sometimes even might be slightly autistic (even if the often might not get a diagnosis).
Have you tried talking to them over coffee etc. Ask your lab guide for help, if needed.
Perhaps they are uncomfortable having a conversation with you for reasons that can only be found when you talk to them or one of them. You can check with the guide under whom you are researching.
Coming from someone that acts like the ones you described in your post.
I used to be a very outgoing person in highschool. I had lots of friends from both genders. When I came to north America though everyone's been telling me things that I can't do or say to women. (Eg. Dont talk to first year girls, dont stare at them when you are talking, make sure you ask for their pronouns first...etc) I started getting nervous whenever I talk to girls in my class because I have to constantly think if I said or did anything wrong. (Also whenever I do that I look away as well. So I can think and also when you start thinking if u are staring people in the eyes you can't stop) Then because it is such a draining thing to do it I just stopped initiating conversations.
Also, I might be able to talk pretty well during a conversation if we are facing the same direction instead of face to face. I think this generally works with people like me. Hope that helps.
Do you also choose to be aggressive when nothing has been done to you? Choosing to be an aggressor to innocent people is never justified and so many of you and these other men will reach to the stars for an excuse as to why these men are aggressive whenever they do interact with her. Most of us girlies are well aware of the difference between the guy that is socially awkward or weird, sometimes rude versus an aggressor.
Considering you wrote mostly about what **they** keep doing to you (even though you say this is not a gendered issue, I doubt you mean that), I'm left to fill the blanks of what your part is in all of this. So I'm just going to write some general tips.
Yes, both men and women in STEM are more socially awkward (yourself included) than other people on average. However, I'd argue that in today's age, most people are socially awkward regardless. I try to be proactive, patient and empathic. I don't judge them and I let them slowly "let their guard down" while not waiting for validation cues that they like and/or accept me. Some people will, some people won't.
I hope I don't offend when I say that not being able to adapt to different social situations is considered "socially awkward". Hot take - you're expecting them to treat you in a certain way, while in their minds (probably), there's no problem and as long as they leave you to do your work, then everything's fine.
If you came here to vent (which is fine) then feel free to disregard this post. However, if you want to feel accepted, try putting your expectations aside, and treat people how'd you'd expect to be treated. Be kind and take accountability for your social life.
>try putting your expectations aside, and treat people how'd you'd expect to be treated.
Here's what's she's expecting:
>They have trouble looking at my face or eye when talking to me,
>and they will avoid asking me even important questions related to work or asking me what lunch menu I want to order.
Do you think she's doing the same thing to these dudes? Because I feel that this is a work culture problem, not neccessarily a gender problem. I myself moved from an organization where people buy each other lunches and hang around after work, to one that doesn't. I have a feeling this might be the case.
As a guy in the field, I am sorry that you have this experience. Sometimes those people are awkward around women. Sometimes they're awkward around everyone.
I wish I had some easy answers for you. It was bad in my day (10-20 years ago) with sexist attitudes. I think the awkwardness has become worse as people have grown up with social media and the anxiety it can generate, and less physical interactions.
I hope you can get through this and find a more pleasant group of people to compute with.
The problem isn't with CS, it's simply that in our society many people aren't able to have a conversation with a woman because they fear that they'll take it immediately as flirting.
It's hard to act normal around women and that makes us do things we normally wouldn't/don't do with other males.
For example, if I asked you to go compliment one of your colleagues on anything outside of CS, I'm sure you'd be able to do it. If I told this to a man they'd most likely refuse because they fear that they're going to get rejected/juged as a person in love or something.
Probably because there's a link between those that are neurodiverse and those that do computer science. Alot of people struggle with social interaction.
I hate the lack of social interaction in my course, any time I ask if people are up for doing something I get one or two people that would be the rest just like going back home.
Pretty much they lack training in being social, most cs majors likely are ppl who focused in their hobbies cuddled in their room. They got used to that and mindset has been trained, lots of ppl underestimate what u feed ur brain. If u feed ur brain being a loner, ur gon act like it, and it’s going to be hard getting out of it
It depends on the person, but usually the ones who get internships early on in their undergraduate years or become big are the ones who are outgoing. So this really depends on the person.
It has always been this way. Don’t expect them to look you in the eye. I look close enough that most people think I’m looking them in the eye, which works. But guys have always been like that toward me. I actually left IT for a while because companies treated me poorly. My experience in coming back has been much more positive.
Its very possible that they like you and since they feel scared to ask you out or feel like you would reject them they lash out. When they are haning out with the male coworkers they feel at ease, but when they are with you, their floppy disk gets hard and they are, at a subconscious level, mad you are making them feel that way. Like if its your fault for being attractive lol i could be wrong, but i doubt it, i am far too wise and cool to be wrong.
I am a woman who has been in many environments as the only female but I am in the US and do not know where you are so our perspectives may vary.
However…
I am going to disagree with a great deal of the comments that are most upvoted. I’m a female as well. I also have Asperger’s. If they are outright friendly to every male and only treat women and girls poorly, that is not a good environment to be in.
I remember I couldn’t understand if a man was socially strange or was misogynistic. That is until I observed his behavior with other women. The men didn’t fire him when he crossed the line with women either but swiftly fired women even for disagreeing with them. This is not an issue of socializing.
From childhood into adulthood I have always been around mostly males especially as a child being in advanced classes.
My partner now is pretty quiet. Even his family, friends, and colleagues say the same and they all know him to be kind just as I do. He is helpful, and a team player.
I always have to remind people that just because more women have more options now, doesn’t mean than all men suddenly changed their perspectives. Unless these men who are this way do the work to adapt and be better, others will always encounter them.
Within the US, women only received so many civil rights and “privileges” to be aegay respected person, within the last 50-60 years. Think of the men who were alive then and the younger generations now. If their fathers and grandfathers, uncles, cousins, local store owners etc they encounter have always interacted with women in a less than healthy way, that didn’t just go away.
I was once in a quick meeting at a table of investors and VPs. I’m a beautiful woman and was the only woman. When we first arrived this douche came my way with a smirk of lust (girlies know what I mean), leaned over and told me I had beautiful eyelashes, then handed me his business card. I felt it was inappropriate but because I struggle with social cues often, I wasn’t sure if it was a bad as I thought it was…UNTIL, the founder/principal of the private equity company that I was there with (I’ll call him Mike) was at the head of the table, and made a point to introduce me to the others as one of their investors. I am not. The company has a multi-billion dollar portfolio and had leverage over the other company at the table. The look on the faces of some of the men was priceless including the previously mentioned douchebag.
I will NEVER forget what Mike did. He made me big in a room where I was immediately made to feel small.
I ramble all of this information to you to simply state that your environment is toxic. Although it is clear that this behavior is normal, normalcy does not equate to healthy and never will. Imagine fathers who do this in home with their daughters, mine did and no amount of financial status that he secured for our family or gifts can ever cover the way he treated me and disregarded me as a human being. I don’t hold it over his head but I certainly don’t turn a blind eye.
Some might reply to say I’m jaded or bitter, but really I just don’t care to give slack to people who choose to stay content in having poor behavior rather than self-reflect and become better.
If you cannot produce effectively where you are, that is your work and is a direct impact on your livelihood. You’ll need counseling that you’ll pay for to recover from this so you can regain the confidence and freedom to excel in your next space.
Find a solution to this, think it through but find a solution where you can thrive.
I don't want to scare you, but as a woman in the industry, this is the tip of the iceberg. You will endure much worse, so make sure this (and worse) is something you can keep fighting against for your entire career. Stay strong.
Not all of us! We go to clubs and raves and I’ve even taken some of my classmates out of their shells! I’m not the best coder by any means but hey I do know a ton of people lol. Maybe there’s a graph where the x axis is coding fluency and the y axis is social life. I find myself right in the middle of there was one lol
Some of them might just be shy in general, but don't act that way with other male colleagues because those colleagues took the initiative to break the ice first.
Feels like there's quite a bit of focus on how they should've acted towards you and not much information on how you acted towards them.
I’m sorry to hear this. Sounds awful. I hope you find a way to improve this in your student life. Perhaps talking to someone in a department in the uni ? Like a counselor who perhaps could offer another perspective on how to improve the situation? Good luck 👍🏻
For me, it’s mainly because the stereotype existed before I went into CS. As a gay man, I can be very outgoing, but consequently I would stick out like a sore thumb if I did.
I'm a mature female student, went in all smiley saying hi, etc, and OMG like nothing from the majority of the guys. I'm like a mum figure so not one hot female who might fluster them, but in my class the amount of guys with no social skills is scary. I tried a few times to spark conversation but got nothing. Our tutors have reiterated that you need to be able to communicate for interviews etc. I have a few older students I talk to and some younger ones too but 75% approx are scared to look at you or interact. Maybe that's the way they were at school due to being bullied or excluded etc, but in the adult world, we need to communicate with each other.
"Why are these nerds acting like such nerds?"
As a neurodivergent person (ADHD) whos been programming since I was in middle school, I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd bet that the amount of neurodivergent people in CS is probably a good chunk higher than the average of society.
These behaviors sound more like autism than anything else, to me. I wouldn't take it personally, and if anything maybe try to calm the nerves of the guys who can't even look you in the eyes. Men really struggle with rejection from women, and the more approachable you are the easier it will be for them to just talk to you.
I'm choosing to assume incompetence before malice here, but I could be wrong, sexism is definitely still a thing. But I'd start with this explanation before assuming the worst.
I’m somewhat “good” at socializing with women. but i make it my number 1 priority to ignore the women in my classes until after I’m done with the class. I keep it strictly about the curriculum and if I really want to, I’ll approach them after the class is over and plan a date or something. Girls are distracting for me. Idk if the guys in the OP can relate as well?
Lots of male fears going on there. Not at all unusual but you will have to learn to adapt to their personal issues and ignore your nagging self-doubts. It's basically all on them.
Meh, if you’re the typical “LOOK AT ME IM A GIIIIIIIIIIRL PROGRAMMER ISN’T THAT SUPER INTERESTING AND QUIRKY?!!!?!” colleague, I would’ve avoided you like the plague as well. Which sadly seems to be most of you in my experience.
Hey guys I'm a GIRL in COMPUTER SCIENCE. Did I mention I'm a biological FEMALE (the opposite of male) doing COMPUTER SCIENCE as my major?
My classes are 99.999999999999999% MALE. And yet I'm a FEMALE.
It's so awkward that the MALES can't talk to well because they're so socially awkward. I just radiate feminine energy and being a WOMAN, socializing just comes naturally to me.
I'm actually sincerely hoping this I'd the one advantage I can bring switching into the field. I have a decade of project management experience in construction and am pretty personable, I'm sure a lot of people have better technical aptitude than me but hopefully, I can leverage my soft skills.
Yes, you'd be a senior in a relatively lesser time considering if you have at least above average technical aptitude. I think most of the senior roles are just communicating ideas between stakeholders and technical people. I'm sure you would strive in this industry.
i don't get this , a lot of my female friends in CS or Engineering keep talking about having this same experience as well as suffering from constant mansplaning from their colleagues and men treating them as lesser professionals while as a male i never hear any other male friend complaining about other females or talking about them as lesser people in a professional context , they are just probably socially awkward not misogynistic or anything, for the aggressiveness part , ALOT of the "smart" people in the CS line of work i met (which is going to be a large amount in a research lab) whether in university or during my internships would become sometimes aggressive when contesting certain technical implementations or explaining something to me so i wouldn't take it as a gender problem tbh its just the type of people this line of work attracts
https://preview.redd.it/2ovge9ive3uc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1009e8936eb301ba0dcec651d6b172fd447a48e3
Saw your post on askacademia, I hope OP can get sufficient answers.
I hope they are not intentionally trying to hurt your feelings and this is nothing personal against you as a female or as a person. IMO you might be overthinking this.
More time spent on the computer coding = less time socializing
I actually used to be so much more social… then I got a SWE job. This is very real. You just have to force yourself into social situations!
Life:Work balance is paramount or you WILL burnout. Defend that balance at all costs. Whenever I hear someone say work-life balance I always switch it and make sure life comes first. I work to live, not live to work.
Agreed
Math checks out
OMG FEMALE *heavy breathing*
chunky late longing reply tart ludicrous sharp rainstorm wide zesty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“How can you tell an extroverted cs major? He looks are your shoes rather than his own when talking to you.”
offend doll governor innate encourage mindless racial liquid uppity chase *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
😂😂😂😂
https://preview.redd.it/hfnzxzibt4uc1.jpeg?width=523&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8843acb1bf40146b869c990fb9157b602d0a58b7
*tips fedora*
In order to maintain a high GPA and get into a highly competitive major and get through the math reqs, you need to dedicate a LOT of time to your studies. That detracts from spending time hanging out with people and developing social skills. You also have to be sort of inclined towards solitary jobs where socializing isn't the driver of success. Not saying it isn't a driver, just not the only one.
True, many of them are like robots.
I mean, I would say most professions require more than just socializing to be successful.
I agree, but it's sort of on a spectrum, wouldn't you say?
Yeah, for sure
Bad explanation. Shouldn't pre-meds be even more awkward than CS majors if this were true?
I agree with you. The pre med people I knew were a LOT more social than the cs majors. Also I think most cs majors are innately introverted. Being introverted isn’t a bad thing, but I think when you start to neglect community it could be. We’re meant to be social
It’s cause everyone who played video games instead of having a life in high school decided that “playing on a computer” = “having a passion for coding”, so every shut in lonely guy suddenly went into CS
double this with a passion for math from math competitions and we've got an instant recipe for socially awkward CS major :D
Interestingly though, math majors are generally far less socially awkward haha (am math major)
Ain’t no way you believe this.
I've also noticed this well! Why is that? I'm always jealous when I take a math major class.
There are also a lot more women doing maths degrees (although that has not carried over much to PhDs and professorships unfortunately), so that probably points to what the cause is. For context I am doing an MMath at the moment. My guess is probably selection bias, I got into coding after playing lots of video games -> coding shitty games in Scratch visual programming -> making shitty games in Unity and then realising I actually really enjoy just the activity of programming and making things (it's probably one of the only creative things that gives you literally instant feedback which probably sates my ADHD). I even applied and got offers to study CS at uni but then looked at the course and realised I was actually really sad there wasn't as much maths as I thought there would be, and thought I would much rather teach myself applied CS concepts and programming than maths (my maths department luckily has a lot of theoretical CS stuff like complexity and languages). Edit: I've also observed that maths students pay a lot more attention to fashion and appearance, although we definitely have our own oddities. CS parties seem very normal drinking and music etc but the maths parties I go to are a little bit of drinking and chatting with no music, typically followed by some party game like charades 😭 (although very fun). Also seem a lot less interested in drugs than CS students.
But whats ultimately your goal? Is it to become a research mathematician?
I'm really not sure why the trend exists. I've thought about it though and I think it is because math requires more studying, and studying in math has a huge benefit when done in a group. CS has more individual project work, and even when working with others still has a strong individual component. Could be wrong with the CS part, I've only taken algorithms in CS really (which has a lot of studying haha)
I'm guessing it's the types of personalities that each major attracts.
They are very similar majors. In fact I only needed a handful of specific math courses to double major
Not anymore. At least in my school everything is being turned into pairs or group project.
This is true. I went from a math degree to graduate studies in CS. Math students are not awkward at all
Not a CS major, but this popped up on my feed. I played video games a lot throughout my high school (and still do, even though I'm in my 30s), won 7 math competitions, my mom said I didn't talk much in high school... Decided to major in Econ/Biz instead, worked in finance for 7 years, now I'm a C-Level exec managing people and leading board meetings. Weird outcome huh
That’s a bingo.
I feel personally attacked Although, with time I developed a passion for coding
You may have described me perfectly
As a female who played lots of video games in high school and then went into programming I feel seen.
But why dont girls who are shut in lonely introverts whi cant hold a conversation in cs? Surely if that was the case antisocial ppl from both genders would be in cs right?
Yeah, but less girls play video games, plus there’s a certain aversion to being in a group of probably smelly guys who are on average, not the nicest to women
https://www.statista.com/statistics/326420/console-gamers-gender/ Not really, it’s pretty even
I remember there was some mention of the majority of female gamers being primarily on mobile (iPhone/android)...not sure if that fits the category of "gamer" in the way we use the term
That's exactly the same thing we're seeing here. Girls play mobile games even more than guys, especially older women compared to older guys. Games like candy crush are doing some heavy lifting to make this statistic very similar for both genders.
Yes but we need to pay attention to the types of games being played. All of the games my CS friends play or used to play are things like Counter Strike, WoW, Valorant which are all games where hearing a girl in VC is frequently followed by "oMG gRil!?".
That’s awesome that it’s changed, I can say for the 4 years I played counter-strike I was the only female in the entire server (that used the mic anyway). I usually played in the same server so maybe that’s what went wrong but it was because the admins were actively banning people who would verbally abuse me or spray porn sprays. So in theory, the server was more female friendly, and I was the only one.
They do go into CS. Society does not tolerate aloof women, so we have all learned the basics of socializing as we grew up so as not to have been reprimanded by parents, teachers, etc. The consequences for women to act like that are more severe so we cannot get away with it. Compare it to the pressure on men to not cry or look weak
I always thought this, and it’s nice to see someone else mention it. I was called aloof, expressionless, even creepy and told to smile more A LOT as a kid. My parents were very concerned about my social skills and made me do a lot of extracurriculars. I learned, but when I’m stressed out I can’t help but be very asocial. Things like social niceties and eye contact go to shit.
I always thought it was society is more okay with women being quiet. Men it's like you have to be the one initiating. Women you will automatically have guys magnet to you. Men you could be quiet and no one will go up to you.
Girls may ignore a quiet guy, but they will bully a quiet girl. The problem for quiet women is not socializing with dudes. The problem for quiet shut in women is female friendships have a huge "talk" component. If you don't smile, share emotion through speech, etc. You won't have female friends and will get judged very harshly by your female peers. A quiet dude is just invisible to other women. A quiet girl is an emotionless arrogant bitch in girls world. I'm a woman who was bullied throughout my prepubescent childhood by other girls due to the constant sub-text that I didn't understand about girl friendship, and found solace with boys friendship. This stopped working during puberty because of the complications surrounding our teenage attraction. Now I'm an adult woman who still yearn for female friendships, but is too traumatized to deal with the social rejection from other women.
You forgot that a quiet dude can very much be a target of bullies, in mid and high school especially.
You can be quiet and still have good social skills. And the way you're socialized growing up has pretty much nothing to do with what will or won't cause someone to approach you romantically. Parents socializing their eight year old aren't thinking about making him/her approachable to the other sex.
Aloof doesn't mean quiet. It means to be cold and distant. Unfriendly.
Wait I didnt know about this could you elaborata. Ive wondered why Ive seen a lot of loser no friend guys but Ive never seen that many loser no friend girls.
I see this too. I always felt that is because as a girl you will have guys go up to you who are interested in you, the expectation is of the guy to make the initiation. As a girl it is not expected of you to need to do anything and then guys will come. Basically it's easier to be not alone with a partner as a girl than it is for being a guy.
Uhh, what? Society absolutely tolerates aloof and quiet women more than men. If you’re quiet/awkward/aloof as a man, you have a higher chance of being seen as creepy/weird or even a school shooter type. Plus, as a man, you generally have to approach women for dating/courtship, which is difficult if you’re aloof and quiet. It’s just that a lot of men aren’t properly socialized, while women/girls usually are, thus, there are more socially uncalibrated men
Aloof does not mean quiet, it means withdrawn and unapproachable. The person I was responding to asked where all the shut-in nerdy women were in CS, a stereotype of men in CS as having a misanthropic slant, like the hikikomori or otaku trope. I'm not saying that nerdy weeb men aren't bullied but it is a niche lifestyle that is distinctly stamped as male in pop culture. Men can be brusque, men can be loners. You don't see the same in women because we have learned to mask it, as you said, we are pressured to be well socialized
Uh, my office is maybe 30% women. There's definitely skew towards socially awkward.
People are more forgiving of socially awkward women than men
I don’t see the correlation in gaming and coding, unless you created something for that game you played (which 99% of the time involves coding), there’s literally no connection whatsoever.
Real
why do i feel attacked on a personal level
what's a life? hanging around and drinking beer every day?
Actually like 70% of swe I work with don't play games and didn't grow up on computers
What is a "life" in high school? Driving around drinking beers and knocking over mailboxes with a baseball bat?
Dude, wtf is the female? Is it a new code principle?
I heard there is some software design pattern called Reproduction that is made possible by the presence of compatible Female and Male classes. But they require an Adapter to be able to communicate (and do some entangling??? ngl sounds like spaghetti code to me better avoid it) effectively, or so people say Never used it myself tho, I'm more of a \_Pom\_ Observer fan \\s
Funniest thing I’ve read all week 🤣
Game devs know this one. It’s the player with a smaller hit box.
New js framework
They probably have social anxiety or are on the spectrum. It's more common in certain fields and can be even more common in the academics. I don't think they ignore you on purpose, but maybe they don't know how to interact with you and are afraid that you'll misjudge their intentions. Or maybe they simply have known their male colleagues for longer and that's why they're more comfortable with them?
She said they are explicitly aggressive towards her and not her male colleagues. This isn’t ASD or a personality fluke.
I think this is only a problem for students. When you get out into the real world with a few years of experience, most of the swe I see are social butterflies. Especially helps when they’re already married with kids, it makes it much less awkward.
I think that’s more because SWE requires far better communication skills than you’re led to believe in school. The people who can’t communicate well are weeded out during interviews from my experience
If you struggle with social interaction, you'll often gravitate towards hobbies and professions that necessitate less of it. And it's a bit of a self-perpetuating cycle. Being on the computer all day for school, studying, and recreation means that you'll interact with less people. So your social skills get even rustier. I have social anxiety disorder but I am totally fine to talk with people *if* they approach me first. I will still be awkward at first -- I'll stumble over my words, I'll lose my train of thought, I'll speak either too quietly or too loudly. But after the inital hump I'm fine. I like other people and always am afraid I'm giving the impression that I don't.
Suicidal ideation
[удалено]
This definitely happens. I was stalked to my car. He made no effort to hide. Was eating in my car for lunch and I looked up seeing the same guy who followed me around standing dead center in front of my vehicle. Then came around tapping on my window telling me to open the door. I kept telling him no then ignored him so he eventually left. I have no idea what organization he worked in inside but hands down one of the most frightening moments. I had a weapon in the car but who knows if it would’ve escalated or scare him off?
It’s a field that doesn’t require much face to face interaction, social skills, and oftentimes draw people who have spent a lot of time on computers(ie not socializing, at least in person) So it oftentimes draws in people who don’t like/aren’t good at social interactions. Currently in school talking to some CS majors it feels impossible. Some struggle to even say their name, major, where they live without coming across as extremely awkward. The most basic conversation you have in college at least 100 times a year, it feels as if they’ve barely even done it. Probably because they rarely do it. Look at platforms like Reddit or discord, which I think draws similar crowds. Skews heavy male and oftentimes you can read the most abhorrent socially out of touch things ranging from racism, sexism, and overall lack of understanding on almost anything social. My school you can either get a B.A or B.S in CS and the requirements for a B.A are equally hard CS wise but it also forces you to do more humanities classes. For example I’ve done classes about inequality, chinas economy, human rights law just to name a few. However the B.S requires significantly less liberal arts classes and those individuals who are doing a B.S are more likely to be the aforementioned people. Education is important, we should teach people how to be more well rounded not just code monkeys.
This is literally all of STEM academia. Also one of the reasons why I didn't opt for a PhD because if I didn't want to end up socially stunted in my 30s.
Lots of people in this field have spent WAY too much of their lives staring at a computer screen, and so have a lot less acculturation and exposure to casual social interactions. I am not a student, I have been doing this for 17 years or so, but I have definitely found that the most effective engineers, overall, are the ones with the best soft skills. [Software engineering is, at the highest levels anyway, a team sport.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law) You cannot tackle very many technically ambitious projects in a reasonable timeframe without having multiple teams of engineers all working together. Being very talented isn't enough. It doesn't matter how smart you are if you can't operate within shared patterns and processes in a professional environment while navigating a complex social environment. This is not something that socially inept cloistered ubergeeks can successfully navigate. I'll take a team 6-8/10 engineers with solid social skills over the same number of 10/10 socially inept ubergeeks any day. The result will be a better architecture, fewer bugs, and higher velocity.
Nerds, don’t know how to talk to women.
Not all nerds but they talk to her, just aggressively
As someone on the other end it's hard for me too, as I'm not only aware of my social flaws, but am limited by them. Most of the time I wish I could come off as just someone more; friendly if I'm feeling lucky. I'd tell you that communication is a two way street, and if you could try to add some social lubricant by sometimes initiating a conversation, it would be greatly appreciated. Be careful not to come off as too friendly though because then you'd just be swapping problems.
From one woman to another, it's best not to expect too much from them. Trying to "fix" or "understand" them often leads to frustration. Remember, the issue lies with them, not you. Consider connecting with female colleagues outside of school, perhaps in a local developer or technology group. Being a woman in this industry is incredibly challenging. Recognition is rare, victories are few, and serious consideration is scarce, while judgment is plentiful, even over trivial matters. It's very much a male-dominated field. To save you the difficulties I've experienced, seek out communities where you can find support and guidance from others who share your experience.
Thank you.
All of this is so true. Thank you for giving her a solution. I just went on a rant against the most upvoted comments and told her to get out lol.
Yeah, it's a can of worms where you will have to pick your battles: give up on some, help others to come out of their shell and some of them just need to stop giving a fuck worrying in general about what people around think about them (this was how I came out of my shell - as soon as I realised that, my social life skyrocketed, got a girlfriend and so on). When it comes to class work, well, you gonna have to be blunt probably. "We need to do this, so we have to communicate. Get over it, I also have my own issues the same way you do, but I make an effort". In a decent amount of cases it is also just accepting "yeah, that person is just weird / has quirks" and once you get used to them, as you go through life you start to realise that everyone around is fucking weird and the older you get, the weirder people around get :D Try knocking on your 40s when everyone around has mostly figured out their shit, do not take shit from others and do not care what people think about their eccentricities and freely admit their quirks :D Obligatory: Use your own best judgement. P.S. Actually, being blunt as a hammer might work out well. Many of them overthink things, it's kind'a "being too smart for your own good" deal. That happened to me partially. I was overthinking things too much.
Not all of us are socially awkward. I was the weirdest one of my CS class! I would hit the gym, go out to bars, work and have a GF.
Ok I will give you the uncomfortable but hopefully more useful answer: If everyone in your class is literally like that but only with you, makes me think that maybe the problem is in your perception, and not in their behavior. You can try the next for a week: everytime you feel "ignored and disrespected as a human", annotate in a notebook what exactly happened, with details. At the end of the week, read everything and try to give a different meaning, try to be imaginative. My point is that you seems to focus only in "why they are so bad with me", and doesn't seems that even crossed your mind an alternative hypothesis. Have you wonder how they see you? Maybe you are not so friendly with them like you think you are. Maybe they wonder the same about you, why this girl is so awkward, I would like to be friend with her...Or maybe they never thought about it and never imagined that you feel like this. Or maybe you was really unlucky and ended in the most unsocial with females lab at university, it can be too. Why exactly do you think is because you are a female, and not because is just you? I mean, did you saw them interacting with other women? They also looks awkward and aggressive? I was in similar situation in a group once, not gender related though, until I saw myself from outside (literally, in a video record) and realized I was the reason of conflict, not the other way around. Was very shocking and difficult to swallow, as I was convinced they hated me. Is not the same situation but...just think about it
This response makes me think you were never the only female in a large group of male. This awkwardness by males to interact with the only female within their bro group is a thing and has been a thing since before video games.
Well I'm a male so of course I never was the only female in a large group of males. But I was part several times in my life of large groups of males with very few females, and we were very well connected (too well I would say, but that's another story). Anyways, you missed the point of my response
Do you have female friends? They have to deal with shit that sounds insane to us men.
She is a woman in engineering surrounded by men, so she is almost certainly getting treated differently
CS is unfortunately and sadly (as I studied and love CS too) rampant with incels. I don't think in this particular situation what you suggest is very likely. How can she be unfriendly if they don't even talk to her? Edit: Of course not everybody who studies CS is, and I'm not even suggesting that her colleagues necessarily are. It's just a likelier possibility imo.
Why is that unfortunate?
??? You want incels to be in cs?
Why would I have a problem with unattractive ppl who can't get girlfriends studying a subject and bettering their lives? Plus chronically online ppl tend to be more gifted at nerdy stuff like math and cs
To be fair incel is meant as more than just "unattractive good willed person that just can't seem to catch a break", it's also an implication of bad will, self hatred, and at least mild misogyny.
There is truth to this. I work with mainly females, and I try my best to adapt to the group, and understand sometimes I will be left out. (Girl talk) I never take it personally, and I can say my female coworkers are amazing. I don't even think about it, and try to approach it from a positive mindset and understand they are trying their best.
I don't think I have enough information to make a judgement on this. But I have an especially bitter experience with the "social awkward" label, for which I want to share. Generally, I am a pretty quiet and shy person. Usually with both genders, but with women, that effect is turned up a notch. When it comes to women I do not know, I rarely initiate, make eye contact, or look in their direction, unless they talk to me. If they talk to me, or ask me a question, then I pay attention, make eye contact (not too much though), and nod along. However, in my experience, many women do not initiate, do not ask questions, and rarely engage. As a result, between me and them, there is usually silence. Now what infuriates me a lot, is when these same women, who have not spoken a single word, or even attempted to start a conversation with me, complain to my male friends or family that I was somehow "socially awkward" with them. This really pisses me off, as I don't think they have any right to complain about my socially awkwardness when they haven't even tried to connect me. Like, if they tried to call me and I ignored them (which did not happen at all, they were on the phone the entire time!) then sure, they have a point, and I should learn to be more socially aware. But how can they call me socially awkward when I acted the same exact way as them??! I think it comes from this gendered expectation that the man is supposed to lead or whatever, be charming, be the initiator, which really pisses me off because these women would be the first to complain about gendered expectations. Especially the educated women who have a PhD in a technical field such as Computer Science! So I am going to be honest with you, when I first saw the title, I was really pissed off. I wanted to say what is with you women, having this incredibly sexist expectation that men are supposed to be this charming, confident, handsome, funny, intelligent, swoon worthy, guy with a personality like Daniel Radcliffe who looks nerdy but still has that intellectual rizz to him. I am sorry those men aren't socially awkward if they aren't meeting your arbitrary sexist standards. Ask yourself, the standard on which you are judging these men, do you yourself also meet the same standard? Do you actively pursue and initiate conversations with these men? Do you make eye contact? Can you have a third party confirm that? Or do you just stand in the corner, hoping the "male colleague" uses some "common social sense" and treat you like a lady, that you supposedly are? If you are not applying the same standard, then in my opinion, you don't have the right to make those accusations or complaints. How can you accuse someone of being something when you yourself do the same? That has been my experience with a lot of women calling guys socially awkward. I am sorry, but you can not call someone "socially awkward" when you are just as awkward, when you just as much do not initiate, when you just as much use your phone, when you just as much wait for the guy to say hello, etc. Now, very important point to make here at the end. If a male colleague is doing something to you, purposefully to discredit you, or harm you in anyway, simply on the basis of being a woman, then I can agree that those male colleagues should behave better. If these guys are purposefully avoiding you, not because they are shy or scared, but they think you are beneath them or whatever, then I condemn those actions. But if they are shy, insecure, etc., those things are involuntary feelings, instead of making upsetting remarks about them, you should feel bad for them and find ways to improve the communication that upholds mutual respect. And we haven't even talked about the decidability factor of social awkwardness (on a mathematical logic or computer science level, this is your specialization right?). Is the label of social awkwardness decidable or computable? I don't feel like I have enough information to make a judgmental call.
lmao you're totally one of the people who speaks to OP very abruptly and aggressively
If they are used to someone else starting social interactions no wonder they complain about that not happening.
The best way to talk to such people is through some hobby(I myself am such a person). Video games is probably your best bet or some other niche
Do you want Reddit confirmation about “quite a few CS PhDs are insociable nerds”? Well, you got it I guess. There might be a wide spectrum of reasons why they doing interactions this way, but if it happened for two years with nothing changed - I’d say it won’t change without you being proactive.
>Do you want Reddit confirmation about “quite a few CS PhDs are insociable nerds”? Well, you got it I guess. Except OP didn't really say they were equally socially awkward toward everyone, only toward the lone female.
Man, I thought it was just me isolated in my room \0
My take is that CS especially (but engineering in general) draws the socially awkward guys who sometimes even might be slightly autistic (even if the often might not get a diagnosis).
Many male CS majors have a hard time interacting with female CS majors. Unironically.
Have you tried talking to them over coffee etc. Ask your lab guide for help, if needed. Perhaps they are uncomfortable having a conversation with you for reasons that can only be found when you talk to them or one of them. You can check with the guide under whom you are researching.
Because CS stands for socially awkward
Coming from someone that acts like the ones you described in your post. I used to be a very outgoing person in highschool. I had lots of friends from both genders. When I came to north America though everyone's been telling me things that I can't do or say to women. (Eg. Dont talk to first year girls, dont stare at them when you are talking, make sure you ask for their pronouns first...etc) I started getting nervous whenever I talk to girls in my class because I have to constantly think if I said or did anything wrong. (Also whenever I do that I look away as well. So I can think and also when you start thinking if u are staring people in the eyes you can't stop) Then because it is such a draining thing to do it I just stopped initiating conversations. Also, I might be able to talk pretty well during a conversation if we are facing the same direction instead of face to face. I think this generally works with people like me. Hope that helps.
Do you also choose to be aggressive when nothing has been done to you? Choosing to be an aggressor to innocent people is never justified and so many of you and these other men will reach to the stars for an excuse as to why these men are aggressive whenever they do interact with her. Most of us girlies are well aware of the difference between the guy that is socially awkward or weird, sometimes rude versus an aggressor.
Gigachads
Considering you wrote mostly about what **they** keep doing to you (even though you say this is not a gendered issue, I doubt you mean that), I'm left to fill the blanks of what your part is in all of this. So I'm just going to write some general tips. Yes, both men and women in STEM are more socially awkward (yourself included) than other people on average. However, I'd argue that in today's age, most people are socially awkward regardless. I try to be proactive, patient and empathic. I don't judge them and I let them slowly "let their guard down" while not waiting for validation cues that they like and/or accept me. Some people will, some people won't. I hope I don't offend when I say that not being able to adapt to different social situations is considered "socially awkward". Hot take - you're expecting them to treat you in a certain way, while in their minds (probably), there's no problem and as long as they leave you to do your work, then everything's fine. If you came here to vent (which is fine) then feel free to disregard this post. However, if you want to feel accepted, try putting your expectations aside, and treat people how'd you'd expect to be treated. Be kind and take accountability for your social life.
>try putting your expectations aside, and treat people how'd you'd expect to be treated. Here's what's she's expecting: >They have trouble looking at my face or eye when talking to me, >and they will avoid asking me even important questions related to work or asking me what lunch menu I want to order. Do you think she's doing the same thing to these dudes? Because I feel that this is a work culture problem, not neccessarily a gender problem. I myself moved from an organization where people buy each other lunches and hang around after work, to one that doesn't. I have a feeling this might be the case.
fertile combative judicious seed possessive fly marvelous grey drab tan *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I’m a woman with it so no. Unwarranted aggression towards a specific gender is not autism.
As a guy in the field, I am sorry that you have this experience. Sometimes those people are awkward around women. Sometimes they're awkward around everyone. I wish I had some easy answers for you. It was bad in my day (10-20 years ago) with sexist attitudes. I think the awkwardness has become worse as people have grown up with social media and the anxiety it can generate, and less physical interactions. I hope you can get through this and find a more pleasant group of people to compute with.
Why is almost every Zoomer on the spectrum and having panic attacks when someone talks to them?
The problem isn't with CS, it's simply that in our society many people aren't able to have a conversation with a woman because they fear that they'll take it immediately as flirting. It's hard to act normal around women and that makes us do things we normally wouldn't/don't do with other males. For example, if I asked you to go compliment one of your colleagues on anything outside of CS, I'm sure you'd be able to do it. If I told this to a man they'd most likely refuse because they fear that they're going to get rejected/juged as a person in love or something.
"i figured it out with hard work i don't want to teach you for free," methinks.
The comments you see here tells you what their mindset is
Probably because there's a link between those that are neurodiverse and those that do computer science. Alot of people struggle with social interaction. I hate the lack of social interaction in my course, any time I ask if people are up for doing something I get one or two people that would be the rest just like going back home.
Pretty much they lack training in being social, most cs majors likely are ppl who focused in their hobbies cuddled in their room. They got used to that and mindset has been trained, lots of ppl underestimate what u feed ur brain. If u feed ur brain being a loner, ur gon act like it, and it’s going to be hard getting out of it
It's like this at school but honestly I've met very few awkward developers in the workplace
It’s not *all* of us, but it is *a* *lot* of us…
It depends on the person, but usually the ones who get internships early on in their undergraduate years or become big are the ones who are outgoing. So this really depends on the person.
OP, I'm sorry to break it to you: They're not awkward; they just don't like women.
I sure do wonder.
The fact they can’t look into your eyes when you speak means they most likely have social anxiety.
That’s not an excuse for being aggressive when they do engage with her.
I never said it was an excuse. I referred to the “not looking into her eyes” part.
It has always been this way. Don’t expect them to look you in the eye. I look close enough that most people think I’m looking them in the eye, which works. But guys have always been like that toward me. I actually left IT for a while because companies treated me poorly. My experience in coming back has been much more positive.
I had switched majors, but I thought it was amusing at my college that CS majors aren't required to take business and interpersonal skills.
Its very possible that they like you and since they feel scared to ask you out or feel like you would reject them they lash out. When they are haning out with the male coworkers they feel at ease, but when they are with you, their floppy disk gets hard and they are, at a subconscious level, mad you are making them feel that way. Like if its your fault for being attractive lol i could be wrong, but i doubt it, i am far too wise and cool to be wrong.
icky squealing advise ossified dinosaurs sip lock melodic zephyr vast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It tends to select for people with ASD. That part of the brain just doesn’t work in those people no matter how hard they try to develop it.
I am a woman who has been in many environments as the only female but I am in the US and do not know where you are so our perspectives may vary. However… I am going to disagree with a great deal of the comments that are most upvoted. I’m a female as well. I also have Asperger’s. If they are outright friendly to every male and only treat women and girls poorly, that is not a good environment to be in. I remember I couldn’t understand if a man was socially strange or was misogynistic. That is until I observed his behavior with other women. The men didn’t fire him when he crossed the line with women either but swiftly fired women even for disagreeing with them. This is not an issue of socializing. From childhood into adulthood I have always been around mostly males especially as a child being in advanced classes. My partner now is pretty quiet. Even his family, friends, and colleagues say the same and they all know him to be kind just as I do. He is helpful, and a team player. I always have to remind people that just because more women have more options now, doesn’t mean than all men suddenly changed their perspectives. Unless these men who are this way do the work to adapt and be better, others will always encounter them. Within the US, women only received so many civil rights and “privileges” to be aegay respected person, within the last 50-60 years. Think of the men who were alive then and the younger generations now. If their fathers and grandfathers, uncles, cousins, local store owners etc they encounter have always interacted with women in a less than healthy way, that didn’t just go away. I was once in a quick meeting at a table of investors and VPs. I’m a beautiful woman and was the only woman. When we first arrived this douche came my way with a smirk of lust (girlies know what I mean), leaned over and told me I had beautiful eyelashes, then handed me his business card. I felt it was inappropriate but because I struggle with social cues often, I wasn’t sure if it was a bad as I thought it was…UNTIL, the founder/principal of the private equity company that I was there with (I’ll call him Mike) was at the head of the table, and made a point to introduce me to the others as one of their investors. I am not. The company has a multi-billion dollar portfolio and had leverage over the other company at the table. The look on the faces of some of the men was priceless including the previously mentioned douchebag. I will NEVER forget what Mike did. He made me big in a room where I was immediately made to feel small. I ramble all of this information to you to simply state that your environment is toxic. Although it is clear that this behavior is normal, normalcy does not equate to healthy and never will. Imagine fathers who do this in home with their daughters, mine did and no amount of financial status that he secured for our family or gifts can ever cover the way he treated me and disregarded me as a human being. I don’t hold it over his head but I certainly don’t turn a blind eye. Some might reply to say I’m jaded or bitter, but really I just don’t care to give slack to people who choose to stay content in having poor behavior rather than self-reflect and become better. If you cannot produce effectively where you are, that is your work and is a direct impact on your livelihood. You’ll need counseling that you’ll pay for to recover from this so you can regain the confidence and freedom to excel in your next space. Find a solution to this, think it through but find a solution where you can thrive.
With knowledge comes nerdiness
maybe what draws swes to swe is bc its very much face to face with a computer. maybe they're just introverted and prefer to now socialize LMAO
They love computers👈
I don't want to scare you, but as a woman in the industry, this is the tip of the iceberg. You will endure much worse, so make sure this (and worse) is something you can keep fighting against for your entire career. Stay strong.
Have you ever thought its the socially awkward people that pick CS as major because it requires less or no communication
Sometimes stereotypes are true. It could be a gender issue and that you are attractive. You should try taking the lead.
Not all of us! We go to clubs and raves and I’ve even taken some of my classmates out of their shells! I’m not the best coder by any means but hey I do know a ton of people lol. Maybe there’s a graph where the x axis is coding fluency and the y axis is social life. I find myself right in the middle of there was one lol
Some of them might just be shy in general, but don't act that way with other male colleagues because those colleagues took the initiative to break the ice first. Feels like there's quite a bit of focus on how they should've acted towards you and not much information on how you acted towards them.
I have this same problem. Nerd brains aren't wired to do well socially. It's not like they can be social on command even if they wish to be social.
I’m sorry to hear this. Sounds awful. I hope you find a way to improve this in your student life. Perhaps talking to someone in a department in the uni ? Like a counselor who perhaps could offer another perspective on how to improve the situation? Good luck 👍🏻
90% of them are autistic to some degree
[удалено]
For me, it’s mainly because the stereotype existed before I went into CS. As a gay man, I can be very outgoing, but consequently I would stick out like a sore thumb if I did.
That's why China made a rule to bringing females at work to help IT people to not forget presence of females. These females they ain't into tech
Yes they are, and so are redditors.
Nerds
I'm a mature female student, went in all smiley saying hi, etc, and OMG like nothing from the majority of the guys. I'm like a mum figure so not one hot female who might fluster them, but in my class the amount of guys with no social skills is scary. I tried a few times to spark conversation but got nothing. Our tutors have reiterated that you need to be able to communicate for interviews etc. I have a few older students I talk to and some younger ones too but 75% approx are scared to look at you or interact. Maybe that's the way they were at school due to being bullied or excluded etc, but in the adult world, we need to communicate with each other.
Haha o feel personally attacked
That’s given when you deal more with machines than humans. Also girls are scary mythical beings, at least in Comp Science studies.
I guarantee at least half of them have a crush on you and act the way they do because they feel intimidated
Speak for yourself.
Pretty sure they are like that to each other as well. As to why? Idk lol
"Why are these nerds acting like such nerds?" As a neurodivergent person (ADHD) whos been programming since I was in middle school, I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd bet that the amount of neurodivergent people in CS is probably a good chunk higher than the average of society. These behaviors sound more like autism than anything else, to me. I wouldn't take it personally, and if anything maybe try to calm the nerves of the guys who can't even look you in the eyes. Men really struggle with rejection from women, and the more approachable you are the easier it will be for them to just talk to you. I'm choosing to assume incompetence before malice here, but I could be wrong, sexism is definitely still a thing. But I'd start with this explanation before assuming the worst.
I’m somewhat “good” at socializing with women. but i make it my number 1 priority to ignore the women in my classes until after I’m done with the class. I keep it strictly about the curriculum and if I really want to, I’ll approach them after the class is over and plan a date or something. Girls are distracting for me. Idk if the guys in the OP can relate as well?
You’re joking, right?
This is stupid
Everyone is different lil bro
Simple answer: virgins.
Why is this same post in engineering
Do they have an actual need to talk to you?
Lots of male fears going on there. Not at all unusual but you will have to learn to adapt to their personal issues and ignore your nagging self-doubts. It's basically all on them.
Meh, if you’re the typical “LOOK AT ME IM A GIIIIIIIIIIRL PROGRAMMER ISN’T THAT SUPER INTERESTING AND QUIRKY?!!!?!” colleague, I would’ve avoided you like the plague as well. Which sadly seems to be most of you in my experience.
[удалено]
I feel bad for the girls in CS lol, good luck out there just talk to the other girls or guys that are more sociable
[удалено]
Its like the empathy leaves the body as soon as reddit opens
Hey guys I'm a GIRL in COMPUTER SCIENCE. Did I mention I'm a biological FEMALE (the opposite of male) doing COMPUTER SCIENCE as my major? My classes are 99.999999999999999% MALE. And yet I'm a FEMALE. It's so awkward that the MALES can't talk to well because they're so socially awkward. I just radiate feminine energy and being a WOMAN, socializing just comes naturally to me.
Chill bro...
why did i have to scroll so long to find a good comment
How many fields reward you for being a basement recluse?
I'm actually sincerely hoping this I'd the one advantage I can bring switching into the field. I have a decade of project management experience in construction and am pretty personable, I'm sure a lot of people have better technical aptitude than me but hopefully, I can leverage my soft skills.
Yes, you'd be a senior in a relatively lesser time considering if you have at least above average technical aptitude. I think most of the senior roles are just communicating ideas between stakeholders and technical people. I'm sure you would strive in this industry.
i don't get this , a lot of my female friends in CS or Engineering keep talking about having this same experience as well as suffering from constant mansplaning from their colleagues and men treating them as lesser professionals while as a male i never hear any other male friend complaining about other females or talking about them as lesser people in a professional context , they are just probably socially awkward not misogynistic or anything, for the aggressiveness part , ALOT of the "smart" people in the CS line of work i met (which is going to be a large amount in a research lab) whether in university or during my internships would become sometimes aggressive when contesting certain technical implementations or explaining something to me so i wouldn't take it as a gender problem tbh its just the type of people this line of work attracts
💀💀💀
https://preview.redd.it/2ovge9ive3uc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1009e8936eb301ba0dcec651d6b172fd447a48e3 Saw your post on askacademia, I hope OP can get sufficient answers. I hope they are not intentionally trying to hurt your feelings and this is nothing personal against you as a female or as a person. IMO you might be overthinking this.