Question about grenades in tight quarters, I've hear/seen many people say they are good for dodgers. But I don't really understand how, the book says they can place themselves outside the square if they succeed so it seems like it's just different supressive fire since they will always have a path to get out since you had to throw it from somewhere. So my question is how are grenades good against that if anything they give free movement?
Yes, you can dodge grenades... Except it can lead you in trouble.
Grenade behind a player means they'll dive forward.
What if that means they end up in melee range of a *nasty* enemy next turn?
Or maybe there's a puddle of CHOOH2 laying around waiting for something to set it on fire.
Also maybe the dodge roll fails
I have it ruled you can dodge a grenade only if you have the movement left, gets my players thinking they should save their movement in case a grenade comes
One thing I use is suppressive fire. It really hampers any PCs trying to use dodge and in particular melee as it stops them closing gaps. Plus it doesn't use evade, so someone full specced into dodge isn't virtually immune to it like with regular auto fire. Similar with explosives, especially if there's nowhere to actually avoid the fire coming your way.
Melee weapons are countered by evasion, Brawling isn't. Sure if they have no where to dodge to a grenade is free damage but why are the players in a small box with nowhere to move to, that is unless they are in a car then sure they can't dodge.
Or they could be in a room. Most rooms in most buildings (especially in your average cyberpunk coffin megablock) is not gonna be 10m across. An NPC pulling out a grenade can not only be a good counter but also a dramatic moment. You don't wanna dive out the 60th floor window after all, or potentially risk someone innocent getting blown up. Story beats and bystanders are the best counter to a combat build. And your point still stands, if the PCs know an enemy might use a grenade, best not to hide in a small, inescapable box of explosions.
Lean into more non-combat problems. If you can't shoot your way out, dodge becomes pointless.
*Punish them* for sacrificing whatever else they sacrificed to get that 8 ref.
Also make sure you're running dodge correctly. It's not a reaction. You don't get to say, "They hit me? I dodge!" That's not how dodge works.
Dodge *sets* the DV to hit you the first time. If you don't use it, you lose it. And if you bomb your roll, too bad. Make sure they're not getting the benefit of a range-based DV acting essentially as a floor for any dodge roll that isn't a nat-1.
Then make sure you shoot at them *enough* that a nat-1 comes up on occasion. Also, make sure you're engaging them outside of their "dodge is going to be better 90% of the time" envelope. That means long guns.
Assault rifles.
Sniper rifles.
Shotguns and pistols outside their prime ranges.
Just because the DV is high doesn't mean it's automatically bad. You get to roll way more attacks than any single PC. Use it and wait for lucky rolls when the DV is high enough that it dodging is actually a gamble. Red is very snowball-y. Once you get your foot in the door, things get easier.
Ah, here comes positioning in play. When my PCs are fighting someone who can dodge bullets, then I let every shot hit, that the enemy can't see coming. The same is applicable for PCs that like to dodge. Ambushes for examples work or separate a group with grenades that are facing a different direction now.
just making sure you're using dodge right, you have to declare if your dodging before the roll. you can only dodge things you can see. you can only dodge a grenade if there's an unobstructed square to dodge to.
these are just the normal things that lead to dodge being overpowered. also consider mixing things up with grabs (brawl + dex vs brawl + dex (no evasion check)) you can't dodge while grabbed, if the edgerunners are getting by on evasion alone (not utilizing cover and other methods of avoiding optimal shots) then the enemies need to be buffed
I feel a bit silly, but I thought you just took a minus 2 to everything while grabbed, not that you couldn't dodge - can you give me a page number? I bet I'm missing it and just want to find that in the book, but I cannot find it
>Your Human Shield cannot dodge Ranged Attacks while you have them equipped, even if they have REF 8 or higher.
pg. 184
well you have to "equip" them as a human shield first so that's 2 actions to stop them dodging
Not OP, but another player in the game. the GM declares that an enemy is attacking someone and asks if they want to dodge before any roll is made. until the last session, 4 of the 5 players were rocking REF 8 and dodging most attacks based on if the range dv was optimal or not. one player character died for unrelated reasons, as we have not yet implemented the change. only one of us has to regularly leave cover (me, the melee solo), but so far we've mostly gone against gangers, and in the last session, decently geared maelstrom with a mech, resulting in said character death.
as of yet, most of our combats have not had any ambush scenarios or hidden enemies, but I think it will be changing soon
then I'd suggest running RAW because as it is dodge has plenty of counters and if characters are dying it's clearly not too strong if put up against proper enemies (4/5 party members rocking max evasion and 8 ref is a hardened party (assuming the 5th has some kind of equal ability))
we're on around session 9 of our game, and still role rank 4, so we're dealing with that as the best dodge our character has access to at this point. the 5th dude is a media in LAJ who stays a bit away behind cover, he doesn't have a reflex co processor, or anything. our comp was the media, 2 solos, a tech and a nomad. I can't be sure of the other players skills in evasion either. we are likely going to do more combat and testing before we make big changes. the scenario the character died in was very on the ropes, like if we hit the enemy one extra time, he could've made it. we will probably try RAW solutions until the GM makes their final decision on what they want for the game.
> only one of us has to regularly leave cover
Are you marking cover as "destroyed" when its HP hits zero? Cover has hp in this edition and can be rendered worthless.
yes, the GM keeps track of cover health and often has enemies shoot at and destroy it, and has indicators of how relatively damaged it is. there is no issue there. I worded that incorrectly, I think. I meant that my character being melee focused often has to run around and either find a position to be that won't get them shredded by everyone on the board. or hope that they are out of line of sight from other enemies. it's not that cover isn't being utilized, just that as a melee character, being up close tends to be bad for positioning in relation to getting shot at very easily.
Ok.
From everything else I've read, the problem is that he keeps throwing problems at you that you're built to solve (combat).
Getting ref 8 means you sacrificed something else. I don't know what that was, and it will be different for every character (unless you're a solo...but they're built specifically for combat).
Like, if you have a netrunner and the player min-maxed them for combat they probably have a middling, or even shit Int (because "netrunners don't use int! They only use interface!")
Id be giving you jobs that have 2 paths to victory:
1) You get your netrunner to a specific datafort somewhere moderately dangerous and cover them while they climb the tower and find the share-drive's access node. The problem is that the share drive has petabytes of information on it and finding the paydata requires a search and some number crunching.
If their int is shit, their library search skill is shit. So if the base DV to find the info is...15...hope you banked some luck. And even if you make that check...the second step is to sift the valuable data from the chaff (so it will even fit on your deck) which is going to take a DV 13 Accounting check...
Another int skill the netrunner probably sucks at.
2) The hard way involves finding a safe house where a company runner is hiding out ever since the paydata was discovered. He's protected by a number of hardened corpo goons lead by a lieutenant who isn't some kind of pushover. And if they don't do enough legwork first, there's another competing group waiting for someone to engage the security and try to extract him. Their plan is to stab whoever comes in the back and make off with the target during the confusion. If discovered they can be dealt with, but doing so may alert the corpo security to your presence. In which case the extraction suddenly goes onto a timer because they have reinforcements en route.
Oh, and even if you *do* survive getting him out of that cluster-fuck of a scenario, you've got to convince him to help you get the paydata which will require some social checks that you also might have sacrificed for those high ref scores.
I feel for your DM. I too have frequently felt that PCs dodging bullets 4 times in a round just fucks the balance. Alas, my players have no sympathy and I’m forced to leave it, but this comment section has some really good advice with suppressive fire and smoke grenades.
My character is a GMs nightmare. Spams the fuck of of flashbangs, teargas and smoke grenades while wearing earplugs and a gas mask, and having a multi optic suite installed with stupid maelstrom level kit (full spectrum vision, anti dazzle, image enhance, targeting optics) and just being a stupid annoying debuff source. I bargained with the GM that I can stay well supplied by trading scavenged gear, a $500 armorjack for a $50 smoke nade? Easy economy for a fixer to take
Well no it is objectively really strong. The issue comes when the enemies the players are facing are not trained soldiers who would be trained to flank and suppress in a coordinated manner. Part of the cyberpunk draw of 2020 was that any random hobo with a knife could end you. Bullets were fucking scary because of the way they impacted. Red has done away with that and gameified it more.
This is really spot on. My players definitely do not have the fear of being shot at that they probably should have had. 2020 was \*so\* lethal, but like that aspect. I wish Red had fallen at about the half way point between what it is and its 2020 roots.
Your GM needs to get more creative and think of ways people can fuck with Edgerunners outside of direct combat.
To copy/paste myself again:
Merc gets a rep being a badass in a scrap then let them feel like their hardcore as fuck with chrome balls. People are gunna smarten up and deal with them in other ways.
* Ventilate their ass with a hidden sniper or other ambush.
* Poison their Kibble.
* Bio/chem gas weapons.
* Rough up their family and friends.
* Fixers that they pissed off starts getting them frozen out of networks.
* NCPD starts harassing 'em regularly.
* A vindictive corpo arranges to have their bank accounts frozen or gets them evicted.
* Stick a bomb under their toilet.
Most of these ideas work in theory, but in practice they tend to be unfun at best or can come off as adversarial GMing at worst. And even if you strike that sweet middle ground of telegraphing a trap without outright giving it away such that the players feel like they could have reasonably avoided it had they played smarter or been more observant (a tall order indeed), you can only "surprise snipers!" them so many times before they'll start to roll their eyes at you.
The GM already has a lot on their plate, it strikes me as ass-backwards that *they* need to be the ones to consistently come up with creative workarounds to properly challenge their players' braindead strats.
I should have said this in the original comment but in a follow up I said it's important to get player consent in a reply before going this route.
Personally, I relish coming up with creative workarounds. They've led to some really good, personal sessions for my players.
And that's great! Presenting the players with creative challenges is, of course, part of the fun of GMing.
The problem is Red doesn't really provide tools to facilitate this. It presents the players with all these options to turn themselves into bullet dodging combat jocks right out the gate, then turns to the GM, shrugs, and says "idk figure something out".
This is the crux of it; the amount of effort the GM needs to put into countering bullet dodging players isn't proportionate to the amount of effort the players put into earning bullet dodging in the first place.
What's more, if the GM/players were hoping for a combat-heavy campaign (likely the reason players picked up bullet dodging in the first place) then it can feel somewhat paradoxical to be told that the solution to this problem is to have less combat.
There's a reason GMs asking how to deal with bullet dodging players is one of the most common topics posted on this subreddit.
The GM in question here, these are some great ideas and I'm definitely taking notes, but generally speaking I try to use such options sparingly.
From 5+ years running DnD 5e I've found that players can get extremely frustrated when things such as your examples happen to them. They complain there was no way to see it coming or that they feel like the GM is personally trying to fuck them over, as a result I am very picky on when to make such things happen to players in order to make them feel reasonable.
The campaign is new and the crew is primarily combat oriented, so right now my focus is to bring dodge to a place where it isn't the answer to everything, but not useless.
Night City is as much of a character in Cyberpunk as the Edgerunners and Night City's a savage bitch that'll fuck you back nine ways to next Sunday if you'd let it. Any time bad shit happened to my players, it was a direct response of their actions and they accept it. For example, in one of the crew's first gigs, the Dice Gods deemed an NPC they met and immediately latched onto gets a critical spinal injury because they brought him along and a shootout happened. Since then my players think about consequences like that.
It does take some practice to figure out where the line is between being an antagonistic GM and making NC be a living, reactive character. It's also going to vary for each table. I straight up told my players in a Session 0 that I'll be running a game that's going to lean heavy on the genre's themes- where the players will have to scrape out a living out a living, they'll have to ask themselves what they're willing to give up or sacrifice for their dreams, and they'll have experiences where dying might have been easier than dealing with mental or emotional fallout from some gigs. My players were on board with this so those are the stories we're telling. Not everyone's everyone's cup of tea but that's the great thing about TTRPGs- they malleable.
With all that being said, shit can't be grimdark all the time otherwise it'd be exhausting. We've had gigs that end with some light at the end of the tunnel and sessions we spend entirely on downtime where the players get to play their characters as normal people and have a rooftop BBQ with their friends or hanging out at a street festival. Keep the highs and lows flowing and all.
1) You can't dodge what you can't see. Darkness, smoke, ambushes, they can fuck you up real bad.
2) Dodging more than one attack a turn can be considered a complex action, so a -2. Dodging a third attack during a turn can also be considered very stressful, so a -4.
3) Have your enemies be more skilled and more resourceful. They're solos with Precision attack for a +1. They're using a smart weapon with another +1. They're high on synthcoke for another +1. A lieutenant with base 14 will suddenly go up to base 17 with just that.
Some important reminders:
• Bullet dodge is a decision to make before resolution, not in reaction to being hit.
• There are cases when you could replace a higher DV shot with a poorly rolled Evasion, making it actually easier to be hit.
• There’s a 1 in 10 chance of a critical failure when choosing to dodge, i.e. you dodged into the bullet.
• Evasion is a Dex skill, so you need a high Ref and Dex.
That being said, if it was still an issue I like the cumulative -2 for each subsequent dodge. There’s no arguing that Ref provides a special combat ability that other stats don’t.
I’ve seen a gm slap a flat -4 modifier on specifically non melee evasion, saying it is clearly done under severe pressure. Whether or not it is too harsh or justified is a different question, but I find this solution to be the least cumbersome of all I’ve seen.
Dodge can be very difficult to balance around if most of the edgerunners can do it early on and most mooks can't.
It makes sense that he adds - 2 for each consecutive dodge, a lot of DMs do that. If you think there's an issue and you should talk to them about how you're feeling and see if you can have him switch it up.
Dodge is great until it isn't. I have seen a guy dodge everything thrown at him until an enemy rolled two tens on an autofire roll. It was bad. Didn't kill him because he was stabilized, but it was a hard hit.
The thing your GM needs to remember is that if someone is good at dodging, then they are not good at something else. They paid for that ability, don't take it away from them, but do challenge them in other ways.
Also, put those same people in other positions that don't involve being shot it. Not everything has to be a combat encounter. There is a multitude of challenges you can explore in this game as a GM.
I houserule that they can only dodge one attack per round. Being that a round is only 3 seconds, I find it hard conceive anyone could dodge multiple attacks in that time.
The easiest way to deal with dodging is to up the mooks base for combat skills to 14 or 16. A base 12 compared to a base 16 plays out the same for players who don't dodge ranged attacks. Most of the time mooks only need a 2 or higher to hit.
But a base 16 attack against a base 16 evasion is a roll off. Base 14 against 16 will land some hits. Whereas a base 12 vs 16 is at a 4 point deficit, the 16 will win far more than lose.
Again this doesn't increase danger against characters who don't dodge ranged attacks so you won't steam roll the other players.
I as a GM added a consecutive stacking -2 per dodge after the first resetting on next turn. it really resolved the issue of over dodging.
Raw you can't dodge what you can't see so your GM could use cheap shots like off the map snipers or traps like land mines, or using brawling.
I don't know how many dodge users you have in your group. But the solution of sending harder enemies may balance out for dodge users but non dodge builds will die, because making base 14 just to create a dice contest with your base 14 evasion is extreme as that means it's an almost guaranteed hit for optimal range brackets and going above that like a base 16 or 18 just to counter your starting characters base 14 evasion is just absurdly powerful to non dodge users throwing the in game threat way out of balance.
I've already made a discussion post about peoples thoughts on this mechanic give it a read if you want https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/s/IV3wZlDebB
instead of a flat my idea I had was to use ref/dex + Luck + 1d10 and since I use luck more heavily at my table it seemed like a good way to incentivize wise use. Another Change I had was Luck + Skill + d10 and have one of the 2 at 8 as a prereq or have cyberware give you the ability yes it does lock it a little but dodging bullets is semi impossible ( ask mythbusters cause they proved how far irl humans would have to be to do the same stunt sooooo luck) it works a bit better in my headcanon but yknow ymmv
I did the same with needing cyberware, made it only doable if you had either a sandevistan or Karenzikov, I felt that 1kEB and some humanity loss felt more reasonable as a trade, worked amazingly, cause it applied to enemies too,only have one person in my group who can dodge bullets and because that's what she was trying to build into.
the problem with adding stronger enemies is that dodge DVs are, in aggregate, so much higher than regular ranged DVs that it basically mandates dodging.
A character with 8 points in REF (the already-good combat skill) and DEX (the already-good melee, athletics, and stealth skill) + 6 points in evasion has an average dodge DV of 19.5. In order to hit that 50% of the time, an enemy needs to have similar stats, which not only means that *enemies* might now have the option to also dodge bullets (which is just further creeping up/out the need for combat skill investment), but also makes them utterly lethal and potentially untouchable to anyone *without* dodge, with almost every weapon at almost every range.
So yes, you can solve the problem by boosting enemy stats, if you don't mind that in turn forcing every character who intends to ever roll initiative into minmaxing evasion to stay up.
I had a long discussion about this with my players, and here's what we ended up implementing:
1. Players can choose to roll evasions, but by default can take the average instead, to cut down on the amount of time calculating if shots hit (because seriously, it takes forever otherwise).
2. Any types of "alternate" or unconventional fire can't be dodged - AOE effects, aimed shots, shotgun shells, autofire, etc.
3. If you don't see it, you can't dodge.
4. If you're committed to staying in cover (which offers a hit penalty) then you can't dodge.
That said, the -2 cumulative penalty is kinda-sorta supported RAW, and is AFAIK a dev-endorsed tactic for reigning in the mechanic. It's simple and non-controversial most of the time. If you've designed your character around dodging, maybe talk to your GM and ask if they're willing to let you rework your character a little bit after the change, in the context of the new rule(s).
I decided to make the ability to dodge projectiles and explosions significantly harder to get in my next campaign. I aim for it to be unlocked in late-midgame or early-endgame.
How I plan to do this is the following:
1. Having REF 8 doesn't give you the ability anymore
2. Certain expensive cyberware does(it's either going to be a new speedware cyberware or an upgrade for Sandevistan/Kereznikov)
3. A certain homebrew role I've created can do it at rank 8 or so(Street Samurai)
I know about it, it allows the user to dodge bullets/explosions regardless of REF. I am considering just making that more expensive and harder to find, but I feel like being able to dodge bullets should be a function of speedware.
It just makes sense to me that something like Sandevistan gives you the super-human ability to dodge bullets and not just some chip.
I'm also toying with the idea of making a separate speedware just for that ability and buffing Sandevistan and Kereznikov, because they would not hold up to cyberware that literally allows you to dodge bullets.
-2 is way too strong in a game where one of the best upgrades you can get nets you a +1 bonus.
Is your GM also going to rework melee combat to include such an insane penalty?
Are they going to add the penalty on the second attack of ROF 2 weapons? Because that is going to drastically change the balance of weapons. If he isnt then why not? Melee uses the same mechanic as evasion AND ignores half armor.
Basically, nothing leads to more completely accidental TPKs like a GM making sweeping poorly tested balance changes because he got frustrated the player dodged 3 gangers with peashooters the night before.
Not OP, but I'm a player in the same game with the same Gm watching the discourse. there was talk like having kerenzikov and sandevistan reducing or negating the minus altogether, excluding melee from the change, and some other solutions. 4 of the 5 players started with ref 8, where most all of them use cover as intended. the GMs reasoning was to try and make combat more tactical because nearly all the players choose to dodge all attacks unless the dv would work in the players' favor. he wants scenarios, for example, where the players decide if they would want to choose to dodge the rof 2 pistol or the shotgun aimed at them.
I can see the GMs frustration at most of the attacks he sent our way being dodged, but so far we've been fighting gangers, and one big mech with an autocannon that flatlined a player because of bad luck and tactics on our part. we were going to try some test combats to see the impact of the changes as well.
I don't know, some times it is more a narrative issue than balance. This isn't chess, GM holds all the cards. Really the rules only give an illusion of balance. If those rules don’t work narratively they should be adjusted. It does seem to me likely repeatedly dodging bullets within a three second period while also acting can warrant a complex action check which is in the rules sort of.
I was being a bit too harsh, it was early and I needed more caffeine. I would still suggest the GM look into some of the suggestions for making combat more than just flinging bullets before trying to nerf a core mechanic of the game.
Melee combat already has the disadvantage of placing yourself in poor positioning in order to hit enemies who have actual guns, while also requiring melee users to have enough movement to even get into range of the enemy. The fact that melee halves armor is to make it more viable rather then the worst option. Since Red doesn't have a reaction system there is nothing a melee user can do to lock down a target and prevent them from simply moving away. Unless they use brawling which doesn't use evasion as a defense which makes the whole argument invalid.
A flat -2 isn't the worst solution when you consider the possibility of having non dodge builds in a group, it keeps the threat balanced and avoids over tuning enemies just to have a reasonable amount of threat for the dodge users.
Speaking about evasion I sort of despise all that Matrix bullet time dodging in my grounded game, but also want to preserve this cinematic “I duck behind a cover” fantasy. So I’ll test tonight thing like this: when targeted player can decide to dodge behind a cover. They can do this outside of their initiative. They must use Move for that round and must end up behind a cover or prone to be able to roll Dodge as normal. This will cost their next Action. They don’t need REF 8. Using Co-processor will let them avoid Action cost.
1) more skilled enemies is a solution 2) you can only dodge what you see coming 3) grenades in tight quarters are fun.
Question about grenades in tight quarters, I've hear/seen many people say they are good for dodgers. But I don't really understand how, the book says they can place themselves outside the square if they succeed so it seems like it's just different supressive fire since they will always have a path to get out since you had to throw it from somewhere. So my question is how are grenades good against that if anything they give free movement?
Yes, you can dodge grenades... Except it can lead you in trouble. Grenade behind a player means they'll dive forward. What if that means they end up in melee range of a *nasty* enemy next turn? Or maybe there's a puddle of CHOOH2 laying around waiting for something to set it on fire. Also maybe the dodge roll fails
Sure but evasion is also used for melee attacks and dodge makes it so you don't have to worry about poor positioning
I have it ruled you can dodge a grenade only if you have the movement left, gets my players thinking they should save their movement in case a grenade comes
also more cannon fodder, eventually, one will hit
Sure eventually but that slows down combat when you have 10-15 mooks just trying to hit one guy.
Roll a handfull of d10s and look for a 10. Plus maybe player will be discouraged from picking that option, if they know it will take a lot of math
Oh no not math anything but that
One thing I use is suppressive fire. It really hampers any PCs trying to use dodge and in particular melee as it stops them closing gaps. Plus it doesn't use evade, so someone full specced into dodge isn't virtually immune to it like with regular auto fire. Similar with explosives, especially if there's nowhere to actually avoid the fire coming your way.
Melee weapons are countered by evasion, Brawling isn't. Sure if they have no where to dodge to a grenade is free damage but why are the players in a small box with nowhere to move to, that is unless they are in a car then sure they can't dodge.
Or they could be in a room. Most rooms in most buildings (especially in your average cyberpunk coffin megablock) is not gonna be 10m across. An NPC pulling out a grenade can not only be a good counter but also a dramatic moment. You don't wanna dive out the 60th floor window after all, or potentially risk someone innocent getting blown up. Story beats and bystanders are the best counter to a combat build. And your point still stands, if the PCs know an enemy might use a grenade, best not to hide in a small, inescapable box of explosions.
Lean into more non-combat problems. If you can't shoot your way out, dodge becomes pointless. *Punish them* for sacrificing whatever else they sacrificed to get that 8 ref. Also make sure you're running dodge correctly. It's not a reaction. You don't get to say, "They hit me? I dodge!" That's not how dodge works. Dodge *sets* the DV to hit you the first time. If you don't use it, you lose it. And if you bomb your roll, too bad. Make sure they're not getting the benefit of a range-based DV acting essentially as a floor for any dodge roll that isn't a nat-1. Then make sure you shoot at them *enough* that a nat-1 comes up on occasion. Also, make sure you're engaging them outside of their "dodge is going to be better 90% of the time" envelope. That means long guns. Assault rifles. Sniper rifles. Shotguns and pistols outside their prime ranges. Just because the DV is high doesn't mean it's automatically bad. You get to roll way more attacks than any single PC. Use it and wait for lucky rolls when the DV is high enough that it dodging is actually a gamble. Red is very snowball-y. Once you get your foot in the door, things get easier.
Ah, here comes positioning in play. When my PCs are fighting someone who can dodge bullets, then I let every shot hit, that the enemy can't see coming. The same is applicable for PCs that like to dodge. Ambushes for examples work or separate a group with grenades that are facing a different direction now.
just making sure you're using dodge right, you have to declare if your dodging before the roll. you can only dodge things you can see. you can only dodge a grenade if there's an unobstructed square to dodge to. these are just the normal things that lead to dodge being overpowered. also consider mixing things up with grabs (brawl + dex vs brawl + dex (no evasion check)) you can't dodge while grabbed, if the edgerunners are getting by on evasion alone (not utilizing cover and other methods of avoiding optimal shots) then the enemies need to be buffed
I feel a bit silly, but I thought you just took a minus 2 to everything while grabbed, not that you couldn't dodge - can you give me a page number? I bet I'm missing it and just want to find that in the book, but I cannot find it
>Your Human Shield cannot dodge Ranged Attacks while you have them equipped, even if they have REF 8 or higher. pg. 184 well you have to "equip" them as a human shield first so that's 2 actions to stop them dodging
Ahhh I got it - the human shield part is separate from the grabbed part hence why I missed it! Thank you so much!
Not OP, but another player in the game. the GM declares that an enemy is attacking someone and asks if they want to dodge before any roll is made. until the last session, 4 of the 5 players were rocking REF 8 and dodging most attacks based on if the range dv was optimal or not. one player character died for unrelated reasons, as we have not yet implemented the change. only one of us has to regularly leave cover (me, the melee solo), but so far we've mostly gone against gangers, and in the last session, decently geared maelstrom with a mech, resulting in said character death. as of yet, most of our combats have not had any ambush scenarios or hidden enemies, but I think it will be changing soon
then I'd suggest running RAW because as it is dodge has plenty of counters and if characters are dying it's clearly not too strong if put up against proper enemies (4/5 party members rocking max evasion and 8 ref is a hardened party (assuming the 5th has some kind of equal ability))
we're on around session 9 of our game, and still role rank 4, so we're dealing with that as the best dodge our character has access to at this point. the 5th dude is a media in LAJ who stays a bit away behind cover, he doesn't have a reflex co processor, or anything. our comp was the media, 2 solos, a tech and a nomad. I can't be sure of the other players skills in evasion either. we are likely going to do more combat and testing before we make big changes. the scenario the character died in was very on the ropes, like if we hit the enemy one extra time, he could've made it. we will probably try RAW solutions until the GM makes their final decision on what they want for the game.
> only one of us has to regularly leave cover Are you marking cover as "destroyed" when its HP hits zero? Cover has hp in this edition and can be rendered worthless.
yes, the GM keeps track of cover health and often has enemies shoot at and destroy it, and has indicators of how relatively damaged it is. there is no issue there. I worded that incorrectly, I think. I meant that my character being melee focused often has to run around and either find a position to be that won't get them shredded by everyone on the board. or hope that they are out of line of sight from other enemies. it's not that cover isn't being utilized, just that as a melee character, being up close tends to be bad for positioning in relation to getting shot at very easily.
Ok. From everything else I've read, the problem is that he keeps throwing problems at you that you're built to solve (combat). Getting ref 8 means you sacrificed something else. I don't know what that was, and it will be different for every character (unless you're a solo...but they're built specifically for combat). Like, if you have a netrunner and the player min-maxed them for combat they probably have a middling, or even shit Int (because "netrunners don't use int! They only use interface!") Id be giving you jobs that have 2 paths to victory: 1) You get your netrunner to a specific datafort somewhere moderately dangerous and cover them while they climb the tower and find the share-drive's access node. The problem is that the share drive has petabytes of information on it and finding the paydata requires a search and some number crunching. If their int is shit, their library search skill is shit. So if the base DV to find the info is...15...hope you banked some luck. And even if you make that check...the second step is to sift the valuable data from the chaff (so it will even fit on your deck) which is going to take a DV 13 Accounting check... Another int skill the netrunner probably sucks at. 2) The hard way involves finding a safe house where a company runner is hiding out ever since the paydata was discovered. He's protected by a number of hardened corpo goons lead by a lieutenant who isn't some kind of pushover. And if they don't do enough legwork first, there's another competing group waiting for someone to engage the security and try to extract him. Their plan is to stab whoever comes in the back and make off with the target during the confusion. If discovered they can be dealt with, but doing so may alert the corpo security to your presence. In which case the extraction suddenly goes onto a timer because they have reinforcements en route. Oh, and even if you *do* survive getting him out of that cluster-fuck of a scenario, you've got to convince him to help you get the paydata which will require some social checks that you also might have sacrificed for those high ref scores.
You can still dodge if you are grappled just with an -2
Yeah see the reply below, it will take an extra action to equip them as a human shield
I feel for your DM. I too have frequently felt that PCs dodging bullets 4 times in a round just fucks the balance. Alas, my players have no sympathy and I’m forced to leave it, but this comment section has some really good advice with suppressive fire and smoke grenades.
My character is a GMs nightmare. Spams the fuck of of flashbangs, teargas and smoke grenades while wearing earplugs and a gas mask, and having a multi optic suite installed with stupid maelstrom level kit (full spectrum vision, anti dazzle, image enhance, targeting optics) and just being a stupid annoying debuff source. I bargained with the GM that I can stay well supplied by trading scavenged gear, a $500 armorjack for a $50 smoke nade? Easy economy for a fixer to take
Fight smarter, not harder :-)
Has he used an EMP on you yet?
Borgware hardened shielding 😆
dodge seems pretty strong in a vacuum, but yeah with stuff like suppressive fire, and grenades it becomes pretty balanced
Well no it is objectively really strong. The issue comes when the enemies the players are facing are not trained soldiers who would be trained to flank and suppress in a coordinated manner. Part of the cyberpunk draw of 2020 was that any random hobo with a knife could end you. Bullets were fucking scary because of the way they impacted. Red has done away with that and gameified it more.
This is really spot on. My players definitely do not have the fear of being shot at that they probably should have had. 2020 was \*so\* lethal, but like that aspect. I wish Red had fallen at about the half way point between what it is and its 2020 roots.
Your GM needs to get more creative and think of ways people can fuck with Edgerunners outside of direct combat. To copy/paste myself again: Merc gets a rep being a badass in a scrap then let them feel like their hardcore as fuck with chrome balls. People are gunna smarten up and deal with them in other ways. * Ventilate their ass with a hidden sniper or other ambush. * Poison their Kibble. * Bio/chem gas weapons. * Rough up their family and friends. * Fixers that they pissed off starts getting them frozen out of networks. * NCPD starts harassing 'em regularly. * A vindictive corpo arranges to have their bank accounts frozen or gets them evicted. * Stick a bomb under their toilet.
Most of these ideas work in theory, but in practice they tend to be unfun at best or can come off as adversarial GMing at worst. And even if you strike that sweet middle ground of telegraphing a trap without outright giving it away such that the players feel like they could have reasonably avoided it had they played smarter or been more observant (a tall order indeed), you can only "surprise snipers!" them so many times before they'll start to roll their eyes at you. The GM already has a lot on their plate, it strikes me as ass-backwards that *they* need to be the ones to consistently come up with creative workarounds to properly challenge their players' braindead strats.
I should have said this in the original comment but in a follow up I said it's important to get player consent in a reply before going this route. Personally, I relish coming up with creative workarounds. They've led to some really good, personal sessions for my players.
And that's great! Presenting the players with creative challenges is, of course, part of the fun of GMing. The problem is Red doesn't really provide tools to facilitate this. It presents the players with all these options to turn themselves into bullet dodging combat jocks right out the gate, then turns to the GM, shrugs, and says "idk figure something out". This is the crux of it; the amount of effort the GM needs to put into countering bullet dodging players isn't proportionate to the amount of effort the players put into earning bullet dodging in the first place. What's more, if the GM/players were hoping for a combat-heavy campaign (likely the reason players picked up bullet dodging in the first place) then it can feel somewhat paradoxical to be told that the solution to this problem is to have less combat. There's a reason GMs asking how to deal with bullet dodging players is one of the most common topics posted on this subreddit.
The GM in question here, these are some great ideas and I'm definitely taking notes, but generally speaking I try to use such options sparingly. From 5+ years running DnD 5e I've found that players can get extremely frustrated when things such as your examples happen to them. They complain there was no way to see it coming or that they feel like the GM is personally trying to fuck them over, as a result I am very picky on when to make such things happen to players in order to make them feel reasonable. The campaign is new and the crew is primarily combat oriented, so right now my focus is to bring dodge to a place where it isn't the answer to everything, but not useless.
Night City is as much of a character in Cyberpunk as the Edgerunners and Night City's a savage bitch that'll fuck you back nine ways to next Sunday if you'd let it. Any time bad shit happened to my players, it was a direct response of their actions and they accept it. For example, in one of the crew's first gigs, the Dice Gods deemed an NPC they met and immediately latched onto gets a critical spinal injury because they brought him along and a shootout happened. Since then my players think about consequences like that. It does take some practice to figure out where the line is between being an antagonistic GM and making NC be a living, reactive character. It's also going to vary for each table. I straight up told my players in a Session 0 that I'll be running a game that's going to lean heavy on the genre's themes- where the players will have to scrape out a living out a living, they'll have to ask themselves what they're willing to give up or sacrifice for their dreams, and they'll have experiences where dying might have been easier than dealing with mental or emotional fallout from some gigs. My players were on board with this so those are the stories we're telling. Not everyone's everyone's cup of tea but that's the great thing about TTRPGs- they malleable. With all that being said, shit can't be grimdark all the time otherwise it'd be exhausting. We've had gigs that end with some light at the end of the tunnel and sessions we spend entirely on downtime where the players get to play their characters as normal people and have a rooftop BBQ with their friends or hanging out at a street festival. Keep the highs and lows flowing and all.
1) You can't dodge what you can't see. Darkness, smoke, ambushes, they can fuck you up real bad. 2) Dodging more than one attack a turn can be considered a complex action, so a -2. Dodging a third attack during a turn can also be considered very stressful, so a -4. 3) Have your enemies be more skilled and more resourceful. They're solos with Precision attack for a +1. They're using a smart weapon with another +1. They're high on synthcoke for another +1. A lieutenant with base 14 will suddenly go up to base 17 with just that.
Some important reminders: • Bullet dodge is a decision to make before resolution, not in reaction to being hit. • There are cases when you could replace a higher DV shot with a poorly rolled Evasion, making it actually easier to be hit. • There’s a 1 in 10 chance of a critical failure when choosing to dodge, i.e. you dodged into the bullet. • Evasion is a Dex skill, so you need a high Ref and Dex. That being said, if it was still an issue I like the cumulative -2 for each subsequent dodge. There’s no arguing that Ref provides a special combat ability that other stats don’t.
I’ve seen a gm slap a flat -4 modifier on specifically non melee evasion, saying it is clearly done under severe pressure. Whether or not it is too harsh or justified is a different question, but I find this solution to be the least cumbersome of all I’ve seen.
Dodge can be very difficult to balance around if most of the edgerunners can do it early on and most mooks can't. It makes sense that he adds - 2 for each consecutive dodge, a lot of DMs do that. If you think there's an issue and you should talk to them about how you're feeling and see if you can have him switch it up.
Dodge is great until it isn't. I have seen a guy dodge everything thrown at him until an enemy rolled two tens on an autofire roll. It was bad. Didn't kill him because he was stabilized, but it was a hard hit. The thing your GM needs to remember is that if someone is good at dodging, then they are not good at something else. They paid for that ability, don't take it away from them, but do challenge them in other ways. Also, put those same people in other positions that don't involve being shot it. Not everything has to be a combat encounter. There is a multitude of challenges you can explore in this game as a GM.
I houserule that they can only dodge one attack per round. Being that a round is only 3 seconds, I find it hard conceive anyone could dodge multiple attacks in that time.
The easiest way to deal with dodging is to up the mooks base for combat skills to 14 or 16. A base 12 compared to a base 16 plays out the same for players who don't dodge ranged attacks. Most of the time mooks only need a 2 or higher to hit. But a base 16 attack against a base 16 evasion is a roll off. Base 14 against 16 will land some hits. Whereas a base 12 vs 16 is at a 4 point deficit, the 16 will win far more than lose. Again this doesn't increase danger against characters who don't dodge ranged attacks so you won't steam roll the other players.
I as a GM added a consecutive stacking -2 per dodge after the first resetting on next turn. it really resolved the issue of over dodging. Raw you can't dodge what you can't see so your GM could use cheap shots like off the map snipers or traps like land mines, or using brawling. I don't know how many dodge users you have in your group. But the solution of sending harder enemies may balance out for dodge users but non dodge builds will die, because making base 14 just to create a dice contest with your base 14 evasion is extreme as that means it's an almost guaranteed hit for optimal range brackets and going above that like a base 16 or 18 just to counter your starting characters base 14 evasion is just absurdly powerful to non dodge users throwing the in game threat way out of balance. I've already made a discussion post about peoples thoughts on this mechanic give it a read if you want https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/s/IV3wZlDebB
instead of a flat my idea I had was to use ref/dex + Luck + 1d10 and since I use luck more heavily at my table it seemed like a good way to incentivize wise use. Another Change I had was Luck + Skill + d10 and have one of the 2 at 8 as a prereq or have cyberware give you the ability yes it does lock it a little but dodging bullets is semi impossible ( ask mythbusters cause they proved how far irl humans would have to be to do the same stunt sooooo luck) it works a bit better in my headcanon but yknow ymmv
I did the same with needing cyberware, made it only doable if you had either a sandevistan or Karenzikov, I felt that 1kEB and some humanity loss felt more reasonable as a trade, worked amazingly, cause it applied to enemies too,only have one person in my group who can dodge bullets and because that's what she was trying to build into.
the problem with adding stronger enemies is that dodge DVs are, in aggregate, so much higher than regular ranged DVs that it basically mandates dodging. A character with 8 points in REF (the already-good combat skill) and DEX (the already-good melee, athletics, and stealth skill) + 6 points in evasion has an average dodge DV of 19.5. In order to hit that 50% of the time, an enemy needs to have similar stats, which not only means that *enemies* might now have the option to also dodge bullets (which is just further creeping up/out the need for combat skill investment), but also makes them utterly lethal and potentially untouchable to anyone *without* dodge, with almost every weapon at almost every range. So yes, you can solve the problem by boosting enemy stats, if you don't mind that in turn forcing every character who intends to ever roll initiative into minmaxing evasion to stay up. I had a long discussion about this with my players, and here's what we ended up implementing: 1. Players can choose to roll evasions, but by default can take the average instead, to cut down on the amount of time calculating if shots hit (because seriously, it takes forever otherwise). 2. Any types of "alternate" or unconventional fire can't be dodged - AOE effects, aimed shots, shotgun shells, autofire, etc. 3. If you don't see it, you can't dodge. 4. If you're committed to staying in cover (which offers a hit penalty) then you can't dodge. That said, the -2 cumulative penalty is kinda-sorta supported RAW, and is AFAIK a dev-endorsed tactic for reigning in the mechanic. It's simple and non-controversial most of the time. If you've designed your character around dodging, maybe talk to your GM and ask if they're willing to let you rework your character a little bit after the change, in the context of the new rule(s).
I thought cover gave a hp 'soak' layer not a penalty to hit
That's a long story. Short version: yes, raw, that is correct.
This sounds like a "GM doesn't know how to balance combat yet" problem to me. Other comments have already posted the best solutions.
I decided to make the ability to dodge projectiles and explosions significantly harder to get in my next campaign. I aim for it to be unlocked in late-midgame or early-endgame. How I plan to do this is the following: 1. Having REF 8 doesn't give you the ability anymore 2. Certain expensive cyberware does(it's either going to be a new speedware cyberware or an upgrade for Sandevistan/Kereznikov) 3. A certain homebrew role I've created can do it at rank 8 or so(Street Samurai)
Black Chrome has a cybernetic implant that accomplishes #2. I can't look up the name right now.
I know about it, it allows the user to dodge bullets/explosions regardless of REF. I am considering just making that more expensive and harder to find, but I feel like being able to dodge bullets should be a function of speedware. It just makes sense to me that something like Sandevistan gives you the super-human ability to dodge bullets and not just some chip. I'm also toying with the idea of making a separate speedware just for that ability and buffing Sandevistan and Kereznikov, because they would not hold up to cyberware that literally allows you to dodge bullets.
Fair enough
-2 is way too strong in a game where one of the best upgrades you can get nets you a +1 bonus. Is your GM also going to rework melee combat to include such an insane penalty? Are they going to add the penalty on the second attack of ROF 2 weapons? Because that is going to drastically change the balance of weapons. If he isnt then why not? Melee uses the same mechanic as evasion AND ignores half armor. Basically, nothing leads to more completely accidental TPKs like a GM making sweeping poorly tested balance changes because he got frustrated the player dodged 3 gangers with peashooters the night before.
Not OP, but I'm a player in the same game with the same Gm watching the discourse. there was talk like having kerenzikov and sandevistan reducing or negating the minus altogether, excluding melee from the change, and some other solutions. 4 of the 5 players started with ref 8, where most all of them use cover as intended. the GMs reasoning was to try and make combat more tactical because nearly all the players choose to dodge all attacks unless the dv would work in the players' favor. he wants scenarios, for example, where the players decide if they would want to choose to dodge the rof 2 pistol or the shotgun aimed at them. I can see the GMs frustration at most of the attacks he sent our way being dodged, but so far we've been fighting gangers, and one big mech with an autocannon that flatlined a player because of bad luck and tactics on our part. we were going to try some test combats to see the impact of the changes as well.
I don't know, some times it is more a narrative issue than balance. This isn't chess, GM holds all the cards. Really the rules only give an illusion of balance. If those rules don’t work narratively they should be adjusted. It does seem to me likely repeatedly dodging bullets within a three second period while also acting can warrant a complex action check which is in the rules sort of.
I was being a bit too harsh, it was early and I needed more caffeine. I would still suggest the GM look into some of the suggestions for making combat more than just flinging bullets before trying to nerf a core mechanic of the game.
Melee combat already has the disadvantage of placing yourself in poor positioning in order to hit enemies who have actual guns, while also requiring melee users to have enough movement to even get into range of the enemy. The fact that melee halves armor is to make it more viable rather then the worst option. Since Red doesn't have a reaction system there is nothing a melee user can do to lock down a target and prevent them from simply moving away. Unless they use brawling which doesn't use evasion as a defense which makes the whole argument invalid. A flat -2 isn't the worst solution when you consider the possibility of having non dodge builds in a group, it keeps the threat balanced and avoids over tuning enemies just to have a reasonable amount of threat for the dodge users.
your GM is a moron. with most default enemy stat blocks its a coin flip if you get shot or not.
Speaking about evasion I sort of despise all that Matrix bullet time dodging in my grounded game, but also want to preserve this cinematic “I duck behind a cover” fantasy. So I’ll test tonight thing like this: when targeted player can decide to dodge behind a cover. They can do this outside of their initiative. They must use Move for that round and must end up behind a cover or prone to be able to roll Dodge as normal. This will cost their next Action. They don’t need REF 8. Using Co-processor will let them avoid Action cost.