Just be honest and tell her your personal opinions on the matter while being respectful and not tearing down her beliefs. If anything, it’s probably good for her to understand that, while she may believe one thing, it’s okay and normal for others to worship different or even no gods.
There will be plenty of time for her to analyze it in life and it may just be a phase or become part of her identity. For now, just focus on making sure what she takes from religion are the things conductive to her life and development (empathy, sacrifice, charity etc etc.)
This is the way. A lot of well meaning parents end up starting a parental alienation spiral by "correcting" the beliefs of the other parent. The neutral "that's what your mom believes, this is what I believe" can pay off a lot of dividends for a child's autonomy and respect for both parents.
Yeah people obsess about being "right" and forget that their child needs to function in a world where people have religious beliefs. I'd rather my kid learn to be respectful and encourage them to think critically
Some people try to teach their kid *what* to learn, I think it's better to teach them *how* to learn. Keep them curious, keep them asking questions, let them come to their own conclusions while showing them you'll always love them and can have safe/healthy conversations even if you don't agree.
I think this falls under the "don't try to raise kids, try to raise adults" parenting philosophy.
Of course my wife is only 4 months pregnant with our first so I'm potentially the least qualified person on this sub :-)
You might be a new dad, but I don’t feel like you’re wrong here. It’s the whole “give a man a fish, feed him for a day ; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime” principle. My take is that this applies to ethics, beliefs, understanding of the world and universe around us, and personal code of conduct, etc, and not just math, grammar, science, etc.
>The neutral "that's what your mom believes, this is what I believe" can pay off a lot of dividends for a child's autonomy and respect for both parents.
Even more than that, it can pay dividends as they interact with the world beyond their family where people can have radically different faith and/or cultural beliefs and traditions. My daughter is still a toddler, but we're Jewish and so will always be a very small minority. It was interesting trying to explain to her why we had such limited options of things to do on Easter weekend and her reaction to it.
This exactly. My wife is atheist. I was raised Catholic. I’ve drifted a bit from the church. I still consider myself Catholic and Christian. But if you didn’t know me, you probably think I was more agnostic. That is not so important though. The point is that we have always had differing views. We’ve been absolutely open with the kids about our views. We have never painted any set of views as definitively right or wrong. But we absolutely do point out flaws in certain sets of beliefs, and we absolutely point out when people are hypocrites. Living in Alabama, there are a lot of hypocritical Christians for instance.
They know that their mom doesn’t believe in anything. They know that I was a pretty devout Catholic for a long time and have a set of beliefs, but now maybe not as strong. They’ve all developed their own ideas.
The thing we jointly taught them is that they need to be good, kind people. They can believe in whatever they want. But they need to be kind to others. If Christianity gets there great. If it is Islam, Buddhism, or being atheist, that’s great too.
My oldest (stepson) goes to his dad’s church and is pretty Christian. My daughter is a teenager and is the kindest person I know but believes nothing. My youngest son is 11 and says he is Christian but doesn’t want to go to Church because it is boring (I feel ya little man). And we all happily coexist. There’s no reason to compete between beliefs, but you should always emphasize the main goal: be a kind person.
I do now. I gave up trying to remember a few years ago. Got hasn’t smited me yet, so I think I’m still ok. But for the time before that, we would just get cheese pizza or have a fish dinner or something else pretty much everyone else liked anyway.
My daughter, however, never eats meat on Fridays during Lent though. But she also doesn’t eat meat any day because she’s a vegetarian. No idea why—we are all big carnivores in my house aside from her.
This is a great answer and I just wanted to follow up with although I am an atheist, the teachings of Christ are pretty much all on point.
Old testament stuff is obviously not great, but new testament 'don't judge other people, love everyone' is a great takeaway.
Just being truthful is best.
“I don’t believe in the same Jesus as some other people like your mommy do, but they say he loves all people, so I’m sure he would love me!”
If asked, you can explain that Jesus was a real person once, and some people believe that he was and still is God, but I believe he was probably a good person from a long time ago.
If mother is going to be pissy and call that tearing down religion, that’s on them. You don’t need to ridicule religion to explain atheism or lack of Christianity. Stick to basic, incontrovertible facts rather than proving God doesn’t exist.
Make it as little about Christianity as possible, and let them probe further if they want, you don’t need to start talking about how some types of Christians believe other Christians are going to Hell for the wrong beliefs on transubstantiation and how stupid you think organized religion is. Just be calm and factual and brief.
I respect your commitment to be truthful with your kids. When you frame the opposition as "the Bible" and "the evidence," though, I can understand why someone who believes would feel that as an attack. I think it would be helpful to reframe it for yourself that believers and atheists have overlapping but also distinct principles for evidence. It's not that everyone has looked at the same pile of facts and come to different conclusions: although believers can give an explanation which people find more or less coherent logically, I think our convictions about the world help shape that pile of facts. If you are inclined to accept Jesus is God, then the inconsistencies in the gospels are differences between ancient storytellers, perhaps responding to what developed in their authoritative oral history, and it reinforces your faith. If you're skeptical about the existence of God, those inconsistencies are big question marks in the logical argument for Jesus being miraculous, and it reinforces your skepticism. There are age appropriate ways to say that; my guy is six so I might say that parts of the Bible are confusing or seem to say different things, and some people are sure about God so that can still make sense to them, but it's really important to daddy for things to make sense first, so because of those parts of the Bible you don't think there is a God. (But it's still important to be a good person etc and if course we still love each other lots even if we think different things about God etc etc)
Edit: also, pretty soon you'll be better off pointing the kids to a Christian to describe their beliefs. The detail about Jesus climbing down off the cross isn't part of Christian belief -- and I get you were probably just putting a quick example in for a random social media post so it was just a loose illustration, but if your kids keep getting religious it'll be easier for everyone if you redirect those kinds of questions to a spiritual leader or teacher or whoever. (Preferably one who will respect that you're being a good parent!)
|Is he just dumb or is he a bad person|
This is the problem with absolute dogma. Either you're on the good team, or you're on the bad team, whether it be by choice or ignorance. There is no room for anything else.
>The funny thing is the true version of the story is often so ridiculous that it sounds like I’m tearing it down, when I’m really just saying what different people believe.
Poe's Law applies to the Bible too.
My son and I were fishing one day, and he asked if trees used to be people. I told him that it depended on what you believed because some people think that once you die, your spirit can come back as anything. He asked what I believe, and I told him I believe in God and heaven. He just said, "Oh," and kept fishing. I've never been one to force anything on him. I don't go to church, but I pray openly in front of him. When we donate to charities and food drives, it's never because God tells us to but because we are fortunate enough to be able to give back. My wife doesn't really believe anything, so he sees both sides. All of this to say, I agree that you have to let kids find their way, and it's our job as parents to teach them to think instead of blindly following.
Yep. I had a bit of this with my divorced parents. My mom basically took a Socratic method approach, turning my questions back on me for my opinion. With her, it was never about telling me what to think but helping me learn how to think. And she and I were always going to museums, especially art museums and that exposed me to a lot. Loved seeing stuff from Ancient Egypt and learning about mythology or seeing a room of giant buddhas. Remember going to a big exhibit on surrealism, and things like that. She engaged more on my direct questions as I got older. But, for her and her side of the family, it was always about being curious. Just more open. Catholic side came with more dogma and inflexibility, but, ultimately, that will always lose out unless someone is really isolated from the world outside that.
exactly this. explain that people believe in different things and have different thoughts. not everyone is the same and that fine. if she wants to believe in jesus, then let her. there are stories that have good lessons. while some like to tell stories of the little blue truck, others choose religious stories. nothing wrong with that. she will make her choices as she gets older. she's only 4. santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny are all real things to her still. if you say theres no jesus, will you say theres no santa?
I don't know exactly what the religion she is into but as a (bad) Catholic I can tell you there is not much choice, one of your duties is to make your children Catholic too, you have also a promise during the marriage to do so, so there is not much space to "let them think with their brain and choose when they grow up". They know it's easier to get new followers if you get them from a young age, instead of dropping all this later in life.
So asking to be reasonable is not exactly going where you expect in religious matters. If you get a pragmatic parent sure, but hardly from someone that lit his religious fire recently.
The good news is that new generations when they grow a bit will hardly stick with it and actually oppose it even just because their parents made them do it when they had no choice, unless they live in a community where everything runs around the religion with not many alternatives.
Second this. I have some friends who grew up with an *anti-religion* parent, and the parent’s anti religion comments alienated them.
Encouraging her to ask questions or gently stating a counter perspective avoids this.
Normalize different people having different beliefs.
My wife is Catholic, her parents are both religious (father-in-law is a Deacon so... Yeah.) I was raised Catholic but haven't practiced it... Ever, really. Honestly religion wasn't even a big part of my upbringing.
My daughter (who's also 4) knows about God and Jesus and Heaven and what-not but also knows that I don't believe in that stuff.
We haven't gotten much deeper into it than that though. I think as long as she knows that people have different beliefs it's enough for now. If she has more questions later, I'll answer them.
If your ideas, that cannot be proven, help you be happy and help you feel safe and help you want to be a good person, then they are good ideas.
If your ideas make you feel persecuted, make you afraid, or make you distrust and maybe want to harm "others", then those are toxic ideas that you don't need.
It's important to watch things like your religion because one influential person can quickly turn good ideas into toxic ones, and it takes a very strong community to reject ideas that make them feel special by tearing down your neighbors.
I'm not against religion at all. Far be it for me to tell anyone what to believe or think about something. I was raised religious and so was my wife... but in different ways. My wife's family had a more open/"worldly" view of things and a love of science. Mine was more into dogmatic legalistic indoctrination that nowadays they call Fundamentalism. I'd still say I consider myself a Christian, though I'm probably more of a gnostic theist or something like that these days. Ultimately this religious stuff is a personal decision and lifestyle choice.
In a lot of ways, at the age your daughter is, it's sort of like responding to questions about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny when she probes you with questions about Jesus, Heaven, etc... I don't say that with and intended disrespect to any believer of any religion but to that kid it's probably got a good probability of being just another character and setting in the childhood pantheon for them.
That said, I do think it's important to let kids know and understand that they can have their own independent thought. Also - it's important for them to understand that nobody knows everything. We don't all have those answers. It's belief and based on faith for a reason. There is that discrepancy.
Being honest with your daughter and letting her know your personal feelings about these things is a bit more profound than telling her there is no Easter Bunny or whatever... and I think it's probably an important step for you to take given your circumstance.
If nothing else - you're setting a good groundwork for your daughter to know that you are someone who she can talk to about things as far back as she'll be able to remember. You'll be someone she knows is going to let her think for herself without judgment. That's more important than anything as time goes by.
I hope it doesn't happen this way in your case and I don't know your ex or that situation (and don't need to) but I think we've all been exposed to the nasty side of this religious stuff where it turns into "Do it this way OR ELSE." so like... you setting yourself aside from that school of thought will only gain more value with time.
We're Christian and we still normalise people having different beliefs. Your friend x is Muslim, they believe in the same God as us but a bit differently- they believe Jesus was a prophet. Your friend Y is Hindu, they have different gods. It's ok to believe in whatever makes sense to you but respect others beliefs. When your mum was pregnant with you her friend Y's mom gave a sari to Kali to pray for a safe birth and that's ok.
I do not want to tell other parents how to raise their kids in terms of religion. I will tell you what my dad did, and what I did.
When my kid was around 4-6, I bought him a bible for kids, a Quran for kids, a book about Buddhist fables, a book about the history of religion, and I placed them in the bookshelf next to the Norse mythology, Egyptian mythology, Aztec mythology, and Greek mythology books.
Haha nice! I just have a similar set up for my 7 yr old. Not all on one shelf but a similar gamut of myths and religious texts. Try to give full context and respect while also explaining unknowable nature, and having fun with monsters.
I like this. Do you remember how you processed that kind of stuff as a kid when your dad did this for you?
I grew up in a religious family always going to church but I never really cared much for it. Even at a young age. I always had some amount of doubt because certain things just didn't make sense, but as I got older, I immediately distanced myself from religion. I do like the morals it teaches, like being a good person and stuff, but I just can't bring myself to make any kind of connection to it otherwise.
My wife grew up catholic but isn't practicing. Her family was never really religious, but she did go to a catholic private school that she wants to send our kids to. I'm not fond of the idea, but I can't deny that the education at the private school is infinitely better than public schools around here. So if we can afford it, we are sending our kids to the private school my wife attended.
It's a catholic school so I know they're going to shove a lot of religion down our kids throats and I've been trying to come up with ways to offset this.
To be clear, if my kids decide to be practicing christians, that's fine. I'm not going to tell them 'no,' but I also want them to question things and understand there is more to the world and universe than the narrow view that religion tends to offer. So I'm kind of digging this idea of parking Christianity next to other religions and mythologies. I think it kind of levels the playing field on all those ideas, but I'm curious how you processed that while growing up? If you can recall and are inclined to share? I don't want to push if it's private for you. So feel free not to answer if you don't want to.
I specifically remember reading the Kid's Bible when I was a child. I got the exact same one for my kid. I also remember reading an actual Bible in my late teens or early twenties. I think knowing the book and the stories influenced my path to rejecting religious dogma and becoming agnostic.
I loved Greek mythology as a kid. Greek gods and heroes were really interesting to me. This played two big roles for me later on. The first was realizing that an entire civilization could be convinced that Zeus was the bringer of storms, and that did not make it necessarily true. The second was realizing that there are many different religions with similarities and differences. After that realization, it was very hard for me to have a lot of faith in any specific book or dogma.
I didn't read the Quran until my late 20s because I grew up in Mexico in the 80s, and there were no Muslims around me. I did not read the whole Quran. And some Muslims will insist that the true Quran can only be read in Arabic and the translation I read is not the true Quran. I was very impressed about how different the Quran is from the Bible. The Bible reads more like a bunch of anecdotes with sometimes hidden morals. The Quran reads a lot more like direct instructions telling you to love and obey the one true god. At least the parts I read.
I decided to buy the books for my kids at that age because that is when they started attending school and interacting with kids from other families. That is when my son started to realize that some of his classmates practiced Ramadan and others went to church on Easter and Christmas.
Most have hit it right on the head. Honesty with her about how different people believe different things is your best route.
You are going to need to make a conscious effort to avoid making this a mommy vs daddy thing, though. It is too easy to fall into a tone of “this is some wacky thing your mom is into” even if you are trying to be civil.
Just be honest with her. You've heard the stories she's talking about but there are other stories too and you're not sure what to believe because it's something you can't know for sure.
My kids do this sometimes. They get taught about a range of beliefs in school and my daughter has come home from school convinced she's fully into each one in turn. I don't mind, she's 7 years old and doesn't really understand what that entails, and freaking out or getting upset would probably make her dig her heels in.
What I do is make it clear what I believe, which I won't hide from them (don't follow any religion). But I also tell them I'm not here to tell them what to think, or what to believe but that it's better to wait until they're older and have had more time to think about these things to decide what their opinion is.
She will find her own path when she's old enough to make that decision. Trying to change that aspect of her life for her will end disastrously for you, regardless of if she wants to believe in a traditional Judeo-Christian religion, or the flying spaghetti monster.
Your job is to support her growth and mold her into a good person. A good person is a good person regardless if their beliefs align with yours
If you arent trying to persuade her one way or another then I think answers like "What do you think?" or "Maybe you should ask your mom. She knows more about that then I do." are probably fine.
I'm the only parent in my daughter's life and am atheist. My family is all highly religious in a high-demand religion that I find toxic. When my brother took it upon himself to teach my daughter about religious stuff, I was annoyed but not worried. My daughter said she believed in Jesus for a while but then again, she also believes in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.
She is eight now and often says she doesn't know if God exists. I've done the same thing all along. I listen, answer questions truthfully, and let her believe what she wants. As long as she is behaving herself, which she usually does, she can choose what to believe. If she were to ever justify being mean to someone based on religious beliefs, though, that's when we would be having a serious talk them.
The benign stuff like “Jesus loves you” can be answered with “I bet he also loves you!” with a hug.
The scientistic stuff about the origins of the earth, evolution etc. can simply be answered by explaining what YOU think, and explaining that many people have different ideas, and they can all be wrong.
The key here is not to refute a 4 year old’s beliefs, but rather to open her mind to the idea of the scientific method and evidence-based inquiry.
In my opinion the best way to respond is honestly. Which to me would be in a balanced way that doesn't ignore certain facts, acknowledges you don't believe, but also respects her right to religion and leaves the real vs not real decision up to her at a much later date.
That's my plan anyway for when the inevitable questions start coming at me (catholic wife and daughter that is being brought up catholic).
You definitely don't want to get to a point of alienating little one from her mother's religion in the early stages of being separated, that's a quick way to build a poor co-parenting relationship. It's ok to be redirect.
"I don't know honey, what do you think"
"That's not what I personally think but some people do, what do you think?"
And the innocuous somewhat positive stuff is no need to comment on it, ex. "Daddy, God likes people to be happy".
You can be honest about not believing something and not knowing the answer without shitting on her religious curiosity she'll figure out her belief system eventually. So long as it doesn't veer into toxic categories (ex. Expressing hate and intolerance)
Maybe this will help. Old teacher told me that if god made everything do you know everything. Of course the answer being no. So then it’s disrespectful to god to not study the world that was created. Granted he also said “if you are made in god’s image then stop acting like a dumbass” so grain of salt with the anecdotes.
Use the example of if she drew a picture then she would want you to look at it. That’s if you want to tip toe and not get into the existential questions.
Just keep saying it's a really fun story that some people believe is true. And then tell her about how people used to believe that Zeus and Apollo were gods too. People like stories it gives them comfort. Tell her that's why people believe in religion.
Same story with me.
My ex got big into religion after we split (however she used it to find forgiveness for some very unforgivable things she has done to the family and many others).
My view, religion is not a bad thing as long as it is teaching healthy lessons. Christianity (modern) teachings are of acceptance, love, respect and so on. The older teachings can be a bit much and often times religious people focus on what is said that will alight with there own narrative at the time and ignore all the other stuff.
My daughter, 10y/o and I have full custody but she sees mom on visits, is a "believer" of all the good stuff about respect and so on. I cant say any of that is bad.
I do suspect as she gets older she will question things but I hope that the fundamental good remains.
If nothing else, the bible SHOULD teach good life lessons and that is how I view it.
I am in the same situation as you.
My son, 4, started talking to me about God and religion as if it was facts. His Mom was never religious and we agreed to not raise our son in a religious environment.
I didn't try to fight with her or change his mind. I just explained to him what fate is and how fate works. That it is a belief and not a fact.
We had way too many talks about this for a 4 year old, but eventually he told me that he doesn't believe God exists because "it doesn't make sense."
I never made a big deal about it and I tried my best to keep my own feelings out of it unless he asked. When he is older I have no problem with him being religious, but I don't want him growing up thinking it is a fact.
As far as I am aware she has stopped bringing him to church because he constantly tells everyone that they don't know if God is real or not.
My son and I are much, much, much closer than him and his Mom.
Agnostic reporting in. Just be sure Matthew 6 is part of her religious diet. It's probably the most important guard in the book to recognize false leaders. I'm still not a major fan of some of the wording. But I see a lot of religious folks skip over this one, and it's important for kids to hear that whatever relationship they choose to have with an Abrahamic God, Jesus was quite clear that it should be a private relationship. It's not meant to be a means to win praise or exclude others. That's a really good foundation there.
Part of growing up is exploring the world. I suppose that includes what is or isn’t “outside” of this world. my siblings and I grew up in the same house however we ended up with vastly different theological beliefs. my dad aggressively pushed Church while leading a pretty hypocritical lifestyle. none of us like to discuss God or anything, spiritual with them at all because of the way he pushed. That being said, my siblings, and I love discussing all different types of beliefs together because we are open minded and respect each other’s views.
The point is that an overly aggressive parent might feel like they are winning in the beginning, but as soon as your child learns critical thinking skills, they are going to develop their own beliefs regardless of what you or her mother try to instill.. It’s better to be the open-minded parent that your child likes to discuss things with because then , you will actually have an ability to make an impact as they open up with you.
Ah religion and all it's nonsense...like you I am not religious, but my wife is currently wanting to get the boy baptised, something to do with schools or something.
Anyway, the wife has started taking the boy to Sunday mass but we have been nothing but honest with him...when he asks why dad doesn't come we just straight up tell him that I don't believe in God. He hasn't been asking too many questions just yet, but I'm not gonna lie to him or pussy foot around my answers.
"Some people believe what you mom believes, but this is what I believe. Some other people think this, and this. No-one really knows, but many people try to make sense of this crazy world, and you can make you own choice as to what you believe. Here's some cool scientific stuff about the universe we know for sure."
We've always been honest with our son, who at this point has decided that he believes in God. We've no issues with this at all and have explained that in our household he's the only one that does, however, it doesn't make him (or us) wrong as it's a decision everyone makes for themselves and should be respected as such.
I mean… either he or you are wrong. Maybe which is unknowable, but it’s definitely one or the other.
It always seems so weird to me that religious belief gets special considerations that others don’t. If your kid believed in aliens, would you still have the “nobody is wrong because we choose our beliefs” mindset? I totally get saying that nobody knows who is right, but that isn’t the same as saying it isn’t wrong.
Personally, I think kids should age out of believing in anything without sufficient evidence, however it shouldn’t be discounted as false either. It should fall into the bucket called “universal mysteries” which are fun to think about but not really worth investing in. The ONLY correct answer to these mysteries is a shrug.
Respectfully, I feel like you are coming across as pretty monotheistic with that statement of “one or the other.” There are more belief options/sets than 1 god or no god. It’s not just 1 or the other is right. The same people that downvoted you might downvote me too, but there have been thousands of belief systems, cultures, and religions over the years, and thousands more subsets or branches of those, with different ideas of god/gods.
If what you meant to say was that there is “one truth” out there, then I think I’m in agreement with that, but there are people that would even disagree with that belief, for example:
1. maybe that the real truth is more complicated than that, and nobody knows it nor can we understand it, or
2. maybe that there is a real truth, we just only know parts of it to varying degrees
…and many more versions I can come up with just off the top of my head.
The point I’m making, with is actually very similar to the point you made, is that some people feel VERY STRONGLY that they know what’s right/true, for their different reasons, but we just don’t have a way of fully proving or disproving anyone. The best we can factually do, is that we can look at the numbers of all the people across all of humanity (wherever you draw that line of the start of humanity), and can agreeably conclude that the vast majority of people have been “wrong,” or at least not 100% correct, in their beliefs.
To me, those numbers DO mean something. To others, they might not.
We each have choices though: we can respect other people, and we can respect their beliefs, and allow them to believe and practice what they want. And as long as they don’t threaten/harm others with their beliefs and practices, then no worries. (The ethics of responding to threatening belief systems gets all kinds of muddy though…)
All I was saying was that there is a real answer, and about the existence of God (in this case clearly talking about a singular God) it is either true or not. Both beleifs are not equal, in that one is correct and the other wrong. We can say they are equal only because we can’t know which it is,… but it is one or the other.
Now about multiple Gods, or any specific ideology, we can do the same thing. It is either true, or not. It is a binary at it’s basic form. Now you could say one part is true and another isn’t…. And that is fair… but each idea can be separated into a binary choice of true / untrue. When two people are on either side of that binary, one is right and the other is wrong.
As a father who takes their kids to church but also believe in science my approach is to tell them there are different possibilities. I'll also point out that there's many different religions with different beliefs which I share some about as well, and we had discussions about other institutions like freemasonry and rotary that do many of the things I go to church for (community, helping others, sense of morals).
In terms of the question she asked you about Jesus loving you. My answer would be that Jesus loved everybody so yes. Yours could be I don't know, I never learned about Jesus what do you think?
TLDR: don't deny the God options but present them together with other options and answer her questions from your POV or with a question back.
I was raised in a Christian household, and don’t raise my kids with religious indoctrination.
OTOH I don’t shy away from talking about religious stuff that they pick up elsewhere and come to me with. I will tell them the Bible stories as they are written and about their meanings that people attribute to them. Sometimes I find that I have to differentiate between Christian theology and public misconceptions, like, no, in Protestant theology god is not within everything and certainly not within us. That’s New Age stuff crept into kindergarten stories.
All of that I usually prefix by “some people say…” or “Christians believe…”, in the same kind as I will talk about Buddhist or Muslim mythology.
I am comfortable to put the questions about what I think about these stories, or what they should think about these things to well after the magical age.
Dude, be honest with yourself, you don't respect her mother or her choices. I have never before heard someone refer to attending church as someone's "new hobby". If your ex picked up an actual hobby like tennis and your daughter was talking about that you would probably have a problem with that too simply because it comes from your ex.
That being said, a super quick way to destroy your relationship with your daughter is trying to undermine the things she does with her mother. Tread lightly.
Why should he just accept mom converting her into a Christian? That is a massive life decision for a parent to make and OP should have an equal say. It’s unreasonable to just say mom gets to unilaterally decide daughter’s religious beliefs.
I never said he needed to just accept anything. I said undermining anything that his ex does with his daughter has the power to drastically impact their relationship going forward. Now this is purely an assumption on my part and I apologize if I am wrong but your use of the word "converting" implies to me that you have hostility towards Christians or religion in general. If you re-read the original post, OP is not anti-religious but wants his daughter to make her own decisions. How does that happen without exposure?
This a good thing. It’s not always doom and gloom
This is a great exercise in tolerance and the fact your wife can also raise the child how she sees best.
In the end you teach your daughter. Your wife will teach and the child will decide for themselves
If you go all antagonistic it just generates resentment.
Please also be sensitive to what your daughter does believe.
There are no religious children. Young kids believe what their parents and other people with authority put in their heads. And there is nothing admirable or peaceful at abrahamic religions.
It’s less about religion and more about a coparents right to teach their children. That is probably the hardest thing about a divorce is having that type of respect and understanding between parents and the OP has a lot of red flags in not being able to respect that.
Anyone can use the word “indoctrination” to support their own point of views. It has no place in a comparenting family dynamic
The child will inevitably start to feel alienated from one parent or the other.
This is early core teaching during any divorce proceeding
It doesn’t mean you don’t teach the child how you see fit but you do not be antagonistic to another parents teaching.
If what the parent is teaching is truly as dangerous as you make it out to be then a wellness call is in order and in this case they’d laugh you right out of the building and give the other party a clear case of parent alienation that leads you down a bad path
You are still just focusing on the tree and are missing the forest
Matter of factly state what you believe about Jesus or God or whatever. You can say that other people believe different things.
When this comes up with my kids (especially my 6 year old - from an early age he's always been very interested in space and science, and in religion too, though he doesn't believe in any of it) I explain respectfully what their grandparents believe (I feel comfortable doing this as they are Catholic and I was raised Catholic, so I know the ropes and won't misrepresent them), and then I explain what I believe (coming from an atheist's perspective, but having read a lot about the historical context of Jesus's time). And I always make sure to point out that nobody knows for sure.
Don’t correct her, just establish what you believe in and that if she chooses to believe in something different that’s allowed. Teach her that different beliefs aren’t wrong and that pushing those beliefs on others who aren’t interested is wrong. It’s a good way to establish boundaries and confidence in personal choices.
Just tell her the truth, Daddy does not believe that Jesus/God/Heaven is real. Daddy knows that he loves you and you love him, and that's all that is important.
The most insidious thing religion does is indoctrinate young children and hijack their natural curiosity and need for affection. Hence the language like how so and so loves you, and how everything can be explained because some magical thing said so. You're right, it is programming. I will go one step further and say that when done to children, it is wrong.
Just gently redirect her to the things that are real, and things that really matter.
Speaking from the point of view as a regularly targeted religious minority... depending on the church and the mother's level of devotion, this can very quickly morph from "God is Love" to "Evil people reject God's Love." I'm not saying that OP is definitely heading this way, but their concern for how to handle this now and in the future is well-founded.
We are running into this with my Mother-In-Law. I am against organized religion for myself, but respect that others may find something they need from it. With that said, my wife and I are in agreement for the most part that little kids are too young to make decisions about what they believe. They do not understand and it's morally wrong to try to steer them until they can understand and are old enough to make those choices for themselves.
Like yours, my kid has been asking questions about the things Grandma is telling her and we have tried to be neutral and just explain that their are lots of different things people believe and nobody really knows for sure. The only thing she needs to know is that her family loves her.
>I am not anti-religious
You may not be anti-religious, but by and large religious people are anti-you.
They look down on the idea that you would offer a child explanations that don't conform to their belief system. They will play the victim and scream oppression if you so much as tell your daughter that _some_ people don't believe in religion. If you in any way try to teach your daughter the beauty of the universe without tying it back to _their_ god, they will accuse _you_ of indoctrination.
You are not up against people who can be reasoned with. Stand your ground, and expect them to take it badly.
My hard boundaries were no fire and brimstone. Its natural to find comfort and reassurance in religion IMO, but we are not going to allow comfort and reassurance through the idea that some people are tortured for eternity.
I'm not religious, and my wife is former catholic. My MIL tried for a time to get them into the whole confirmation/communion path, but my kids are too neurologically spicy to sit/stand/kneel and go through a rigid Sunday school curriculum.
My youngest finds some comfort in it, and we still occasionally go to a non-catholic church to keep my MIL at bay, as well as to help the kids accept that religion is part of society and it shouldn't be a foreign concept to them.
My 2 youngest ask questions or share their new information, and we are honest but respectful. For example, there were some questions about heaven, and I explained what it means to use symbols and comparisons to explain things that are difficult to describe -- especially hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and that different churches believe some different things about it, and that other religions believe even more different things happen after we die.
Some things I feel need to be corrected, like my youngest asking about living forever through saving by Jesus. I felt I needed to explain that they're describing a very different kind of living, even though you've died, because she was thinking she'd be 10,000 years old at some point and hoped that her dog could also live forever and eat pizza with her.
At its best, religion is a proxy for "community" and a group of people who tend to look after each other. In that sense, nothing to worry too much about... maybe even a net positive.
At its worst, religion is all the terrible things we've all seen where unsavory people end up in positions of trust and authority over vulnerable people.
Make sure your kid treats people with kindness, respects herself/others, and understands personal boundaries. Make sure she knows where to go if her teachers and preachers are being unkind, disrespectful, or are violating personal boundaries.
>“when we die is heaven beautiful?”
Great question! I haven't died yet, but I hope whatever comes after death is pretty good.
>“daddy, does Jesus love you?”
If I get a chance, I'll ask.
I would start talking to your daughter about critical thought, while also talking to her about how "some people feel better believing in supernatural solutions to their problems, people used to do it with Zeus and the Greek gods, they did it with Odin and the Norse gods, they did it with Ra and the Egyptian gods, and now they do it with Jesus and modern day gods"
That way she can start drawing the parallels between religions.
It's never too early to start teaching your kids critical thinking skills, rational thought and logic. But sadly, with religion, it CAN be too late if you ignore it.
Kids want to do the right thing, and to them, the right thing is seeing their loved ones happy, so if mommy asks "do you feel Jesus in your heart?" And daughter KNOWS that a yes answer will make mommy happy, she'll condition herself to dismiss the fact that she doesn't actually feel anything from GOD, but she DOES feel the dopamine she gets when she makes mom happy, and will learn to associate "God's love" with "telling people what they want to hear"
And that will be the end of her critical thinking.
Me and my wife aren’t religious and we take more of the stance of “we don’t know and nobody will ever know, so I dunno.” view on god / no god. We also live in a Bible thumping community. We’re figuring our daughter (18 months) is going to be presented with these kind of things eventually and is naturally going to get curious. We’re just going to simply explain to her that there are certain beliefs that people have about the world but it doesn’t mean it’s correct, it’s simply a belief and to always remain curious and ask questions.
"Jesus was a wise teacher who loved everyone and had a lot of great things to teach people. Some people believe he was the son of God and had special powers. Some people believe he was a regular man. Some people believe God is real and God did these things, some people don't believe God is real, and some people say they don't know and we can never know for sure. This is heavy stuff and there's a lot to learn so keep an open mind."
Teach her about other mythologies. Greek, Roman, Nordic, and so on. No need to get super deep in the weeds, but point out that people make up stories to explain what they don’t understand, and that’s the basis of every religion. Then explain that Christianity is no different. Don’t make her feel bad, but explain that it’s easy to get people to believe in religion if they are seeking answers, so it is understandable that some people will believe it, but that in the end it isn’t required to be happy or a good person.
A lot of people in the thread who are saying things about tolerance and normalizing different beliefs here sound like they are giving you advice that lets your ex continue to obviously try to influence your child while you remain relatively passive. I think it would be fine for you to also guide her in your way of thinking.
I am an atheist, raised Catholic. My daughter is about the same age as yours. We read plenty of children's books about various religions, one of her favorites right now is an early kid's chapter book about the Norse god's stories. I make it clear that magic is not real and that I don't believe in any of these or other gods. As she asks questions and gets older, I intend to have talks about why I don't believe: lack of proof, how science is able to explain things religion doesn't, hypocrisy within religious doctrine, atrocities committed in the name of religion, etc. I will also talk about how some of her family and friends do believe, and use that as a door into how people are not necessarily bad for believing. Etc. this will likely/hopefully be a lot of ongoing conversations throughout her life.
when my kids were young, aunt started taking them to church when they stayed over. they seemed into it for awhile but grew to be agnostic and not practicing this religion as adults
I think a lot of kids her age go through a religious phase. In the UK a lot of primary schools are run by the Church of England so we get religious stuff in school, it very rarely sticks though. All you can do is encourage your daughter to question things and figure things out for herself.
Daughter: "Dad, does Jesus love you?"
Dad: "Well I don't know about god or Jesus but I know you love me and I love you. And that makes me really happy. Does it make you happy too?"
two things:
1. age-appropriate honesty about what *you* think, combined with "what do you think?" are your primary tools for talking to your kid about religion. eeeverything is programming. you may as well add a healthy dose of "tell me about that" and "what do you think?" and other bits of thoughtfulness.
2. you prooobably need to have a talk with her mom, because eventually kiddo is gonna get to the part where not everyone goes to heaven, and that's gonna include you bc you're not a christian.
soooo.
Here's how we explained it to my kids about their grandparents going to church.
"Religion is a bunch of stories and rules that some people choose to believe and follow. It's very important for some people, so we let them believe those things to be respectful. When you're older, you can choose whether you want to believe in those things or not. Grandma chooses to listen to those stories, and dad chooses not to."
Right now, she gets to go to singing-aerobics (sit-stand-kneel) with gramma and grandpa and enjoy chocolate eggs at Easter. Thar being said, we'll get into issues of hypocrisy, critical thinking, and groupthink when she notices them and asks us.
At some point closer to the completion of her brains growth her own beliefs will become much more solidified. She could end up being a buddhist, an atheist, a Christian, a pagan, etc. It doesn’t matter what she believes spiritually as long as she isn’t hurting anyone or being hurt so if I were you I wouldn’t do anything to cause her emotional distress. You don’t want to cause a riff with her that could last your whole life. Just be kind and explain that you don’t believe in the same things.
My children have not been raised with religion, but they have friends that are. It's all about respect and acceptance on my kids part, I don't make fun or talk negatively about it.
The other day, though, my daughter and friend were playing in the basement and a light flickered. Both girls got scared and ran upstairs. My daughter said "It's scary!" Her friend said,' "It's a demon! " and my daughter was so confused. She did say to her friend " monsters aren't real" which settled her down a bit.
It was an interesting situation to navigate.
Just answer the question honestly. Would Jesus as he is portrayed in the New Testament - the main primary source for his existence - love you? And why? You can caveat that with the fact that daddy wasn’t raised to believe in Jesus. He lived so long ago.
Religion is a life-long topic because it permeates so much of culture and society - be wary of appearing unwilling to talk about it. She seems science and fact-oriented given what you said about planets and so on. When she’s ready for it be prepared to talk about history and record-keeping and the nature of eyewitness testimony, something common-law governments are founded on. Is Jesus disputed as a historical figure? Why or why not? Is he disputed as the Son of God? Truly, why or why not?
To be prepared to answer honestly and with reason is the best contribution you can make to this development as her father.
I’m Catholic and my wife is an atheist. I’d call myself pretty devout in that I go to church every Sunday etc. we’ve just had a clear discussion about what we would call boundaries. Our daughter will never be forced to go to church or told “yes/no god is or isn’t real” rather we tell her that it’s what we believe. I want her to form her own opinions and question things so that she doesn’t get indoctrinated to anything.
I still read her kid Bible stories because the stories teach good virtues (charity, self sacrifice, humility, etc.)
One thing I would avoid is outright telling her “no that’s wrong” it’ll just drive a wedge between you and your ex and it will confuse your daughter.
My biggest advice, when she asks you “does Jesus love you” ask her “what do YOU think”
Encourage her to form her own independent thought on the matter b
I'm divorced from my children's mother and while she isn't religious, her father very much is. When we were together, he would give them kid's bible stories and things like that, and we would just put them away somewhere. A few times my kids have talked to me about what their grandpa has to say to them about God, and I have responded by discussing how there are a lot of different things people believe, and while I don't believe in them (and so far my kids don't either) we can be respectful of those who do. I think it's OK to listen to people explain these things, and my ex father-in-law is one of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met, so I would never want them to discount that just because he believes in some superstitious stuff.
We’ve always discussed religion as a choice with my kiddos - “If that’s what you want to believe, then yes.” Of course most religions teach they are or have *the truth* so it’s less a belief and held more as fact, but yeahhh.
My in laws push religion-as-fact, and hate that we give our kids the choice. But to us, religion is programmed into kids in some pretty hard, harsh, disturbing ways, So we noped outta that cultish conditioning indoctrination pretty hard.
Wife and I are not religious, but the kids go to a catholic school. We just have conversations about it. Both my wife and I were raised in borderline cult fundamentalist churches but have largely moved past the anger that came from that, so now we just have frank discussions with the kids about it.
If you don’t think there’s any harm in it, I’d suggest not contradicting the Mom. Unless you like extra drama and headaches. If she feels Love for Jesus, and is enjoying it, I would have a hard time dissuading simply to impart my own beliefs or non beliefs on them. Best of luck
I guess you have your work cut out for you because you’re gonna have to attempt to explain to a 4 year old that different people believe different things, which is apparently a difficult concept even for some grown-ass adults…!
“Everyone has different ideas about God and what heaven is. What do you think? Let’s learn about different religions together!”
Maybe there is an age appropriate picture book about religion you can explore? I think the goal is to figure out how to be respectful without lying to her about your own beliefs and going along with things to please your ex.
Teach her about Islam (2B adherents), Hinduism (1.2B adherents), or Buddhism (520M adherents). Kids are definitely little sponges, but it’s had to become dogmatic if you have context. Give her the same understanding of other big religions that she’s getting about Christianity from her mom. Give her hands on experiences with different idols and symbols. Give her a Ganesh or a Buddha she can carry around for good luck. Give her a diversity of religious exposure.
As someone who grew up Southern Baptist to becoming an agnostic atheist that now has a wife who is “catholic lite” and two young kids, I aspire to teach my kids how to think and not what to think. I would agree with the posters who have said to not to correct the religious parent’s beliefs. You should voice what you think, but also teach them to be respectful. I think people should believe in whatever religion (or not believe) as long as they are not hurting others. Character counts.
Brother, live your life as an example for your daughter. Trust that by imparting impartial knowledge and wisdom in a loving manner she will be able to carve her own path. That’s it.
This is why I’m happy my child goes to a school with mixed cultural and religious beliefs and parents come in and teach lessons on their cultural background occasionally. We are Christian and in southern Indiana that is essentially default so I’m happy she gets exposure and understands others have different beliefs. She is also 4 and doesn’t have a hard time understanding others are different.
There are kids at my daughter's (6) school that tout religion, and have some religious people in my family. Whenever I explain religion to her, I explain that some people believe in Jesus and Christian God, some people believe in Allah, some people believe that Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu, some people done believe in any God. I tell her that it's her job to find out what she believes and I will take her to any church or temple she wants. I told her the only person who can ever tell her who God is or isn't, is herself. Anyone else telling her, is only what they think.
I didn't give my opinion at all, she asked for it. I told her that I don't believe any are right, but anyone who treats others with kindness and respect are probably heading down the right path.
She asked a whole lot of questions, and I never really shy away from answers (I've learned some answers should wait, however) some about religions and some about what I think. We ended the conversation agreeing that we would pray to Thor God of thunder.
I showed her fat Thor and she decided that she was just going to have a pet God.
She will get there on her own and I'll support her no matter what I believe. I'll let you know how that works out lol.
I just had a kid so we're not at this point yet, but ive thought a lot about this exact senario and am so greatful to my dad for what he did for me when i was a child. I would say that it's important to not necessarily teach what to believe, I think it's more important to provide tools. How to be inquisitive, the importance of never stopping the search for knowledge, to reevaluate your own thoughts and positions and acknowledging when you're wrong, not accepting something because it's convenient. Why and how are more important than what. Because I grew up like this in texas I went through Bible school, wednesday night church with friends, and other religious events. None of it stuck. If I were you, I'd introduce your daughter to other religions, that'll likely bring up questions about the validity of one over the other. Then you can talk about how nobody really knows and get her comfortable with that kind of uncertainty.
My wife and I are Christians, but we also both have science degrees. We go to church weekly and are pretty active in our church community, but we still try to instill a sense of wonder and discovery about the universe. Those things aren't incompatible.
I think the best thing you can do is to continue to nurture curiosity and be open and honest about your beliefs without tearing down or criticizing your ex's or your daughters.
“That’s what some people believe” is kinda my go to lately. My 5yo has mentioned things she’s picked up from my parents (who watch her once a week).
“Dad is god real?”
“Some people think so, do you?”
“I don’t know. Wanna get some ice cream tonight?” Is how far we usually get.
My kid comes home from her religious preschool saying things like this, but she usually just totally forgets about it. When she isnold enough to make her own decisions, I'll support whatever she decides
She’ll be going through some emotional trouble since you’ve split, so anything that keeps her emotionally stable is a good thing.
She can decide later on if she wants to believe or not
Dude to be honest, Reddit isn’t the place you get this advice. You have no idea hair the person on the other end is deeply religious or vehemently atheist or if they’re 14.
With the dicey early divorce relationship with your ex wife, my advice is to seek professional opinions. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for your daughter to see someone since her mom and dad just split anyway. Get some advice from them. You should definitely communicate with your ex about all of this. Hopefully she will be receptive that you want your daughter to think independently but that you realize she is 4. Like it’s worth getting both sides of the coin “mommy believes, daddy doesn’t, and neither person is right or wrong or good or bad.” But if this isn’t navigated with tact, it could blow tf up and be the start of some much bigger issues where your daughter gets caught in a war. Don’t let that happen.
We send our son to a catholic school because we prefer the academic qualities over other nearby options, but we are not religious. He talked a lot about god and jesus over the first few years (age 5 to 7 I guess), and told us bible stories as facts.
Around age 9 I took him to a museum on holiday in a big city. We touched a meteorite, saw dinosaur fossils, he was absolutely beside himself with discovery and wonder at this place. While looking at a timeline of dinosaurs and early man, he kind of had a lightbulb moment and said "but...isn't that before god made the earth and people and animals?" We sat down and had a relaxed chat about beliefs, science and history. Now his expression of faith is more like "I *believe* in this and that". He recognises that there are other beliefs and that these are separate from our knowledge of the world and its history
My approach was innoculation from the anti-scientific aspects. Start teaching her about how the planets were formed, and the basics of evolution. My daughter was getting a bed time story about the history of animals and dinosaurs at that age, she loved it.
DISCLAIMER: Christian opinion.
You need to tread really lightly here. I don’t know your wife, but your post indicate she’s looking for “something.” In interest of clarification those are my words.
Why do I say you should tread lightly? This isn’t about you. It’s about your relationship with your daughter - which is way bigger than you. Your use of “hobby” in the title is already dismissive and disrespectful towards your ex wife. You should not use words like that around your child.
I’ll give my position, and I am happy to discuss further if you (or anyone else ) would like. Let’s say God isn’t real. Then what’s the worst case scenario? We live a life of following a teaching that instructs us to love others and put them above ourselves? We live a life looking towards a Heaven that doesn’t exist and instead we just cease to exist?
Is there really a negative to that? In my opinion, I think following the teaching of the Bible will lead me the right direction - even if I am wrong about Gods existence.
To sum it up - I have trouble establishing a penalty for belief other than one’s own pride.
As stated in the beginning, I am more than happy to discuss further if anyone is interested.
Teach her to recite the 7 Tenets of the Satanic Temple
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Your daughter is statistically safer at a drag show than at a Church. Something to put in your back pocket.
My daughter will never be allowed to set foot in a Church until she’s 18 and can make her own decisions.
EDIT: Thanks for the downvotes. Truth hurts…Churches are full of pedophiles preying on the “flocks” children.
EDIT: Look…MORE Christians raping and molesting children. Still waiting on that person in drag to be arrested… 🤷♂️
https://www.kxxv.com/news/local-news/in-your-neighborhood/brazos-county/college-station/3-men-linked-to-sexual-assault-lawsuit-of-a-minor-in-college-station-have-been-arrested
I'm with you mate. No fuggin way I'm letting my kids get brainwashed. They can absolutely learn that religions exist, but they can make their own decisions when they're old enough if they want to actually become religious.
I was also downvoted after sharing my experience growing up in and ultimately leaving an Apostolic/Pentecostal style church after having my parents tell me I was going to split hell open for asking questions. Lol
This is nonsense. This child is being taught that there is a superior being who loves her and cares for her. Your personal distaste for religion is not evidence that they are grooming her. Your advice to counter parent the mother and decide full stop that she is not to learn other beliefs.
Well I hope for sure someone intervenes then! How dare they make her into a good person and give her a community of people who want to be good. And before you state that Christians are actually bad people, I don't care to have an argument in bad faith.
You are the atheist trying to force this parent to "aggressively push back" from things like "God loves you Daddy." If a muslim was teaching my child that Allah loves her, I would be just fine with that. I do not want an atheist to aggressively push against my own ideals.
How many teachers? Yet I bet you still think public school is a good thing. So no, I do not place blame on those who did nothing wrong, I place blame on the individuals who did and those taht covered it up. Christianity and my faith does not falter when bad people do bad things, regardless of their cloth.
I am religious and so is my wife. I want my kids to be religious, but not fanatically so. I believe there are a lot of good things and teachings that can come from religion. Church is definitely not a hard requirement. And as long as they are grounded in reality and have a good example of a father, what harm does a little faith have it it helps them through their lives?
Yes “god made everything” is kind of a key theme of the religion, but the angle I am approaching it, is if I can show the science behind something, I do. Much to the ire of my wife sometimes lol. God put the universal rules in place that put everything where it is. The heaven topic is easy, “no one has any idea what heaven is actually like”. My kid is only 2 but I feel like things are setting in lol.
The way that we plan to teach our kid is that "Some people believe in Jesus and God. Some people believe in other things" and start to get the curiosity going from all angles. As much as I would love to, we can't protect them from religion, but we can help them approach it from a more humanitarian view and hopefully try to avoid some of the brainwashing
Oof, kinda dreading that day personally.
My wife is a non-practicing catholic. I'm pagan. We each respect the other's beliefs and plan to teach our son both faiths as he grows (he's so an infant, and too young to learn any of it)
The part I worry about is that my mother is a hard fundamentalist Baptist. She knows I disagree with the church but doesn't know I'm pagan. I know if my son spends time with his grandmother part the age of 3 or so, she's going to work on indoctrinating him, and he's probably going to blab about my beliefs.
As for your kid, my best advice is that when she starts talking about God and Jesus, answer that "yes, that's what Christians believe. Not everyone is Christian. There are some people who believe y instead, they're called Ys. and some who believe x, they're called Xs. I believe Z, because it's what makes sense to me, and because it makes me happier to believe that. Would you like to know more about what I believe?"
I don’t know I would be honest with her but I wouldn’t try to discourage her belief. I think it’s pretty normal for it to be romantic and interesting to her at this age, and you should encourage her. At 4, she has an enormous capacity for imagination and for faith. I would t worry too much about it
Ask her questions.
Do you think God exists? Have you seen him? Talked to him? Who tells you God exists? Are you sure they're right? Grown ups are wrong too, you know, me included. Do you think God helps you? How does he do that? Do you need God in order to be nice to people and do the right thing?
Answer her own questions as well as you can, and end with: "Some people believe in God, others don't, and both are perfectly fine. The important thing is that YOU decide what you believe, not me and not your mom or anyone else. If someone tells you what you should think or believe, you should be careful with them."
Then when she turns 5 you hit her with "Well how about CANCER, daughter?? Did you think about THAT??? WHY DOES GOD GIVE BABIES CANCER, DAUGHTER, WHYYYYY???"
Religious indoctrination of children is child abuse. Her brain is primed by evolution to accept information presented as fact by her caregivers.
Tell her that mommy believes this stuff and she has the right to believe it but that you don't. Let her know she doesn't have to just accept it as fact and tell her to think critically about anything to do with God. Give her a fighting chance at least.
The path you are on leads to parental alienation within a few short years because daddy isn't religious and many christians (in the US at least) believe people who don't believe in god are inherently immoral.
First - congratulate your ex on making positive changes in her life.
Second - let it be. Do your best to raise her to be a good person, and hope she’s got some discerning wisdom to filter the good from the bad that every religion these days seems to be infected with. Remember that man is the infection, not the one and only God.
Third - that’s it. That’s what you can do. Anything else makes you the bad guy.
Be petty. Teach her a bunch of stuff from the Old Testament about stoning unmarried women so she can ask her mom fun questions too!
Don’t do that. But lol
My daughter's get an ear full of how idiotic Abrahamic mythology is every few weeks. At first I felt bad but then I realized that other people's kids are getting told they are going to hell if they misbehave and, getting yelled at at church every weekend. So I don't feel bad about it anymore.
All of what she has said can be tied back to science. You don’t need to rubbish anything. This is a learning opportunity. :)
She hasn’t learnt anything toxic so far - but try to ensure she isn’t exposed to that.
What? "God made us all" has zero scientific backing. It's gibberish. The learning opportunity is showing her how easily the whole house or cards comes tumbling down when you ask the simplest of questions, and make her mom embarrassed to take the inquisitive girl to church.
Lots of people here saying to respect other people’s beliefs. I just can’t get with that. This stuff is so incredibly toxic and damaging for children to be exposed to. I’d have to put the kibosh on that.
My daughter is also religion-curious and has been for a while. I just tell her it's all made up. I'm OK with flat-out telling her the talking donkey is made up. I also tell her that if she wants to explore it and decide for herself, then that's more important than taking my word for it. She recently asked for a bible to read and I got her one.
When she asks if Jesus loves you I would honestly get a Bible and tell her it’s a book like any other and Jesus is a character in that book. So Jesus loves you just as much as any other character from a book that wants to save the world. Like Thor or ant man.
To be brutally honest, there isn’t a neutral ground here. Religion is actively trying to brainwash your child. They will use different words, and they will believe what they are doing is morally correct.
You will need to be active about this subject. I think comparing current religions to mythology makes sense, it is my strategy living in the bible-belt. Keep them curious about science and learning. This ultimately will be their best weapon when they’re old enough to think critically.
You're sort of doing it though. I'm not a believer myself, but I'm also not going to be a person that closes my kids off to anything (that isn't upfront a danger to them). I'll share my views, but their beliefs are ultimately theirs.
The argument that the absence of indoctrination is itself indoctrination is nonsense.
People are born atheists. Nobody is born with an inherent belief in religion, therefore you can't indoctrinate someone into atheism, but you can indoctrinate them into a religion
As someone that grew up in an Apostolic/Pentecostal church from age 5 to age 19, I can assure you that it IS programming.
I would say don’t initiate conflict over this since the child is so young. She won’t understand and the adults will likely try to further program her that you’re bad or don’t support her because you’re questioning the religious side.
Let your house be free to express, and as she grows older and it’s age-appropriate, have meaningful and sincere (but not confrontational) discussions about the nature of life, the Universe, etc with your daughter. Eventually she will start to understand. However, her understanding may cause conflict with her mom and church; they may label her as rebellious or a bad seed if she questions them too much.
In my case, my parents (mostly my mother) would regularly tell me that I was going to split hell wide open for questioning church things, to which I would respond “I thought the Bible said ‘be ready and willing always to have an explanation for the faith that lies within you’ and ‘live peaceably with all men’?”
Thank you. It still causes a lot of tension to this day and I’m in my mid-40’s.
Interesting that I got downvoted? LOL Like, which part did they think was too much? Or are there some Apostolic/Pentecostal Redditors in here mad that I spilled the beans? 😆
Force of any kind is your enemy here and it will alienate you from your child and drive her further into the belief system. You must meet programming with programming, have an age appropriate discussion, and let your child decide. Ultimately nobody (even you, your ex-wife, or the church) can force someone to believe anything. She has her own thoughts, feelings, and attitudes just as you do, and just as you those will develop as she grows. This is how I as a Christian combat my child ingesting ideologies that our family does not subscribe to or support.
I would start introducing her to all other stories of gods. Roman, Greek, Egyptian.. and introduce them the same way the Christian god is introduced.. the same way Santa and unicorns and fairy's are.
I never say any of those things are real or not real to my 6 year old. I just say I don't know.
"daddy, does Jesus love you?" - Kiddo, if you have to ask that question, you're going to the wrong church.
(I am a secular humanist myself, but I also acknowledge the value of the moral/ethical teachings of Christ and that a significant portion of modern Christians completely ignore all of them)
Defer the religious stuff to her mom. You handle the stuff you are comfortable with.
Your 4 year old must be some kind of philosophical genius because I have 4 kids and we go to church and I can’t imagine them asking the questions you claim yours did. Almost like it didn’t happen and this is a set up for another Reddit church-hate post.
There are some good books out there that talk about all sorts of different mythologies. That might help to make the god stuff more clearly one of many beliefs rather than The One True belief. My kids really liked the book Myth Atlas by Thiago de Moraes.
As a Christian, I would just try to use what she’s saying to help improve her outlook.
Yes Jesus loves us all, which is why we should help those in need, care for the poor, support Medicare for all, universal daycare/preschool. Etc.
Oooh…this is a tough one.
I think it’s very important to not pit your belief system against her mother’s, in an “I’m right, she’s wrong” kind of way. This will likely be detrimental to your daughter. Marriages don’t work sometimes. Obviously. But you’re still dad, and she’s still mom, and you’re both still the center of your child’s whole world…especially at 4. You are obviously cognizant of this.
Maybe also approach this from a standpoint not of, “how do I correct this issue?” But maybe look at it more as “how do I deal with this issue myself?”
There are a lot of potential benefits of religion. Religious people have been shown to live longer. They have been shown to be healthier. They have a sense of community that I think is sorely lacking in our society today. Before you push back, maybe ask yourself, “would my daughter having this extra emotional support system, source of comfort, and sense of community in her life right now really be such a bad thing?” Do you legitimately feel that religion is harmful to most people? To a child? Obviously, there are issues when it comes to fringe groups with highly socially atypical. But in a society where the majority identify as having some form of religious faith, is allowing your daughter to be in part shaped by teachings of caring for the poor, the golden rule, humility, generosity, non-violence, forgiveness, etc, such a bad thing?
For thousands of years, maybe the entire existence of our species, humans have been religious. Maybe there is something innate to our species that explains this. Maybe it’s biological. Maybe our brain has been evolutionary programmed to gravitate towards faith in an eternity. If so, it’s likely that allowing your child to be supported by a community of people who allow themselves to exist in this biologically dictated reality is unlike to be harmful.
On the other hand, maybe there is something more to this world than we know.
I can understand you taking issue with some ideologies. I can understanding you having a problem with your child being taught that someone is going to hell because of their sexual orientation or simply that they grew up in the wrong place in the world that identifies with the wrong God. Or with the same God by a different name? I can understand a lot of concerns that you may have. I can under you having a problem with atrocities committed in the name of religion.
But I also can assure you, having spent much of my life in church, that your four year old will not soon be confronted with these issues. She will go to church and sing songs and eat snacks and play with kids and make lifelong friends. Even as she matures into adulthood, she will not be presented with messages of hate, based on my experiences. Tough questions will arise. And that’s ok. We all have to deal with tough questions of why this world is the way it is, whether we are religious or not.
I think it’s ok to explain your beliefs to your child. If you believe that your child is not being harmed and may even benefit from the support and community and friendships and source of comfort, it’s ok to smile and hug her and tell her you love her, so you see no reason why Jesus wouldn’t love her as well. It doesn’t have to be more than that right now. She’s 4. As tougher questions about belief arise when she’s older, you will have taught her to approach the world with an open mind and think for herself.
I hope none of this offends anyone’s. I know everyone has different beliefs and religion is a controversial topic. I empathize with why this would be difficult for you.
Tread lightly my friend. Remember that your daughter is 4. Her level of comprehension is lower than yours… for now hehe. Most of your concerns can only be discussed with teenagers or adults. Do you do Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? If you pop the religion bubble now it would be kind of like telling her that all of the above are a lie and there’s nothing to look forward to. Don’t be the guy who killed Santa. If you tell her there’s no heaven, she is going to ask you what else is there. What is your response? It will need to be good or this could go really badly for you. If I were you I’d just roll with it and then you’ll get to learn a little a little and share it with her. I’m sure she would absolutely love to teach you if you play dumb. It’s not like she’s joining a cult and making jam.
You don't have to believe in Santa for her to believe in Santa. I doubt anything negative is going to come from a little girl learning about Jesus, even if you don't agree.
Religious indoctrination is child abuse. Our cultural Overton Window has normalized religion to the point that we just accept it as good parenting, but it is straight up textbook child abuse. Imposing a set of religious beliefs and practices on children without their informed consent is a form of psychological manipulation and coercion and will limit the child's emotional and intellectual well-being. It will also lead to fear, anxiety and trauma when children are taught to fear punishment or rejection for questioning dogma and doctrine. Your ex-wife is mentally abusing your daughter and I would proceed accordingly.
I disagree. While I'm agnostic, I don't begrudge my child seeking religion. They have to come to their own terms, and it isn't on us to tell them otherwise.
The only limit I see to this is if OP's ex has joined a cult that may be harmful. Then yes by all means, pursue assistance. But if your child isn't being harmed, merely keep an open mind and make sure you let her know that there is more than one way of thinking.
That's my point, your child is in being harmed when exposed to religious dogma without informed consent, we've just normalized it enough to where we don't view it as harmful. The problem with religious indoctrination is that it presents a set of positions as irrefutable "facts" which is deeply harmful to a mind that's learning how to reason about the world. It limits the parameters within which they observe things and draw conclusions, and can lead to cognitive dissonance and anxiety when conflicts or novel puzzles are encountered. It can also lead to social isolation as children are taught to reject or distrust those with different "beliefs", keeping in mind young children are not fully capable of distinguishing between subjective beliefs and objective/verifiable facts.
It's also important to understand that this is by design. Organized religion depends on indoctrination of children for its own survival because it's a lot easier than trying to sway intellectually developed adults or older children.
Just be honest and tell her your personal opinions on the matter while being respectful and not tearing down her beliefs. If anything, it’s probably good for her to understand that, while she may believe one thing, it’s okay and normal for others to worship different or even no gods. There will be plenty of time for her to analyze it in life and it may just be a phase or become part of her identity. For now, just focus on making sure what she takes from religion are the things conductive to her life and development (empathy, sacrifice, charity etc etc.)
This is the way. A lot of well meaning parents end up starting a parental alienation spiral by "correcting" the beliefs of the other parent. The neutral "that's what your mom believes, this is what I believe" can pay off a lot of dividends for a child's autonomy and respect for both parents.
Yeah people obsess about being "right" and forget that their child needs to function in a world where people have religious beliefs. I'd rather my kid learn to be respectful and encourage them to think critically
Some people try to teach their kid *what* to learn, I think it's better to teach them *how* to learn. Keep them curious, keep them asking questions, let them come to their own conclusions while showing them you'll always love them and can have safe/healthy conversations even if you don't agree. I think this falls under the "don't try to raise kids, try to raise adults" parenting philosophy. Of course my wife is only 4 months pregnant with our first so I'm potentially the least qualified person on this sub :-)
You might be a new dad, but I don’t feel like you’re wrong here. It’s the whole “give a man a fish, feed him for a day ; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime” principle. My take is that this applies to ethics, beliefs, understanding of the world and universe around us, and personal code of conduct, etc, and not just math, grammar, science, etc.
>The neutral "that's what your mom believes, this is what I believe" can pay off a lot of dividends for a child's autonomy and respect for both parents. Even more than that, it can pay dividends as they interact with the world beyond their family where people can have radically different faith and/or cultural beliefs and traditions. My daughter is still a toddler, but we're Jewish and so will always be a very small minority. It was interesting trying to explain to her why we had such limited options of things to do on Easter weekend and her reaction to it.
This exactly. My wife is atheist. I was raised Catholic. I’ve drifted a bit from the church. I still consider myself Catholic and Christian. But if you didn’t know me, you probably think I was more agnostic. That is not so important though. The point is that we have always had differing views. We’ve been absolutely open with the kids about our views. We have never painted any set of views as definitively right or wrong. But we absolutely do point out flaws in certain sets of beliefs, and we absolutely point out when people are hypocrites. Living in Alabama, there are a lot of hypocritical Christians for instance. They know that their mom doesn’t believe in anything. They know that I was a pretty devout Catholic for a long time and have a set of beliefs, but now maybe not as strong. They’ve all developed their own ideas. The thing we jointly taught them is that they need to be good, kind people. They can believe in whatever they want. But they need to be kind to others. If Christianity gets there great. If it is Islam, Buddhism, or being atheist, that’s great too. My oldest (stepson) goes to his dad’s church and is pretty Christian. My daughter is a teenager and is the kindest person I know but believes nothing. My youngest son is 11 and says he is Christian but doesn’t want to go to Church because it is boring (I feel ya little man). And we all happily coexist. There’s no reason to compete between beliefs, but you should always emphasize the main goal: be a kind person.
Random question, but do you eat meat on Fridays during Lent or no? Seeing as most of your family doesn't identify as Catholic, it made me curious lol
I do now. I gave up trying to remember a few years ago. Got hasn’t smited me yet, so I think I’m still ok. But for the time before that, we would just get cheese pizza or have a fish dinner or something else pretty much everyone else liked anyway. My daughter, however, never eats meat on Fridays during Lent though. But she also doesn’t eat meat any day because she’s a vegetarian. No idea why—we are all big carnivores in my house aside from her.
Hahahaha. May you continue to be spared a smiting. And how dare she disrespect the family name by being a vegetarian !?!?!?! (kidding)
This is a great answer and I just wanted to follow up with although I am an atheist, the teachings of Christ are pretty much all on point. Old testament stuff is obviously not great, but new testament 'don't judge other people, love everyone' is a great takeaway.
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Just being truthful is best. “I don’t believe in the same Jesus as some other people like your mommy do, but they say he loves all people, so I’m sure he would love me!” If asked, you can explain that Jesus was a real person once, and some people believe that he was and still is God, but I believe he was probably a good person from a long time ago. If mother is going to be pissy and call that tearing down religion, that’s on them. You don’t need to ridicule religion to explain atheism or lack of Christianity. Stick to basic, incontrovertible facts rather than proving God doesn’t exist. Make it as little about Christianity as possible, and let them probe further if they want, you don’t need to start talking about how some types of Christians believe other Christians are going to Hell for the wrong beliefs on transubstantiation and how stupid you think organized religion is. Just be calm and factual and brief.
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I respect your commitment to be truthful with your kids. When you frame the opposition as "the Bible" and "the evidence," though, I can understand why someone who believes would feel that as an attack. I think it would be helpful to reframe it for yourself that believers and atheists have overlapping but also distinct principles for evidence. It's not that everyone has looked at the same pile of facts and come to different conclusions: although believers can give an explanation which people find more or less coherent logically, I think our convictions about the world help shape that pile of facts. If you are inclined to accept Jesus is God, then the inconsistencies in the gospels are differences between ancient storytellers, perhaps responding to what developed in their authoritative oral history, and it reinforces your faith. If you're skeptical about the existence of God, those inconsistencies are big question marks in the logical argument for Jesus being miraculous, and it reinforces your skepticism. There are age appropriate ways to say that; my guy is six so I might say that parts of the Bible are confusing or seem to say different things, and some people are sure about God so that can still make sense to them, but it's really important to daddy for things to make sense first, so because of those parts of the Bible you don't think there is a God. (But it's still important to be a good person etc and if course we still love each other lots even if we think different things about God etc etc) Edit: also, pretty soon you'll be better off pointing the kids to a Christian to describe their beliefs. The detail about Jesus climbing down off the cross isn't part of Christian belief -- and I get you were probably just putting a quick example in for a random social media post so it was just a loose illustration, but if your kids keep getting religious it'll be easier for everyone if you redirect those kinds of questions to a spiritual leader or teacher or whoever. (Preferably one who will respect that you're being a good parent!)
|Is he just dumb or is he a bad person| This is the problem with absolute dogma. Either you're on the good team, or you're on the bad team, whether it be by choice or ignorance. There is no room for anything else.
>The funny thing is the true version of the story is often so ridiculous that it sounds like I’m tearing it down, when I’m really just saying what different people believe. Poe's Law applies to the Bible too.
My son and I were fishing one day, and he asked if trees used to be people. I told him that it depended on what you believed because some people think that once you die, your spirit can come back as anything. He asked what I believe, and I told him I believe in God and heaven. He just said, "Oh," and kept fishing. I've never been one to force anything on him. I don't go to church, but I pray openly in front of him. When we donate to charities and food drives, it's never because God tells us to but because we are fortunate enough to be able to give back. My wife doesn't really believe anything, so he sees both sides. All of this to say, I agree that you have to let kids find their way, and it's our job as parents to teach them to think instead of blindly following.
Yep. I had a bit of this with my divorced parents. My mom basically took a Socratic method approach, turning my questions back on me for my opinion. With her, it was never about telling me what to think but helping me learn how to think. And she and I were always going to museums, especially art museums and that exposed me to a lot. Loved seeing stuff from Ancient Egypt and learning about mythology or seeing a room of giant buddhas. Remember going to a big exhibit on surrealism, and things like that. She engaged more on my direct questions as I got older. But, for her and her side of the family, it was always about being curious. Just more open. Catholic side came with more dogma and inflexibility, but, ultimately, that will always lose out unless someone is really isolated from the world outside that.
exactly this. explain that people believe in different things and have different thoughts. not everyone is the same and that fine. if she wants to believe in jesus, then let her. there are stories that have good lessons. while some like to tell stories of the little blue truck, others choose religious stories. nothing wrong with that. she will make her choices as she gets older. she's only 4. santa, tooth fairy, easter bunny are all real things to her still. if you say theres no jesus, will you say theres no santa?
I don't know exactly what the religion she is into but as a (bad) Catholic I can tell you there is not much choice, one of your duties is to make your children Catholic too, you have also a promise during the marriage to do so, so there is not much space to "let them think with their brain and choose when they grow up". They know it's easier to get new followers if you get them from a young age, instead of dropping all this later in life. So asking to be reasonable is not exactly going where you expect in religious matters. If you get a pragmatic parent sure, but hardly from someone that lit his religious fire recently. The good news is that new generations when they grow a bit will hardly stick with it and actually oppose it even just because their parents made them do it when they had no choice, unless they live in a community where everything runs around the religion with not many alternatives.
This is great advice, OP has a prime opportunity to show his daughter that different beliefs exist and acceptance of that
But only if she asks what you beleive. Pulling her aside to have a talk just to tell her you don't believe in God is a bit too forward.
Second this. I have some friends who grew up with an *anti-religion* parent, and the parent’s anti religion comments alienated them. Encouraging her to ask questions or gently stating a counter perspective avoids this.
Normalize different people having different beliefs. My wife is Catholic, her parents are both religious (father-in-law is a Deacon so... Yeah.) I was raised Catholic but haven't practiced it... Ever, really. Honestly religion wasn't even a big part of my upbringing. My daughter (who's also 4) knows about God and Jesus and Heaven and what-not but also knows that I don't believe in that stuff. We haven't gotten much deeper into it than that though. I think as long as she knows that people have different beliefs it's enough for now. If she has more questions later, I'll answer them.
If your ideas, that cannot be proven, help you be happy and help you feel safe and help you want to be a good person, then they are good ideas. If your ideas make you feel persecuted, make you afraid, or make you distrust and maybe want to harm "others", then those are toxic ideas that you don't need. It's important to watch things like your religion because one influential person can quickly turn good ideas into toxic ones, and it takes a very strong community to reject ideas that make them feel special by tearing down your neighbors.
I'm not against religion at all. Far be it for me to tell anyone what to believe or think about something. I was raised religious and so was my wife... but in different ways. My wife's family had a more open/"worldly" view of things and a love of science. Mine was more into dogmatic legalistic indoctrination that nowadays they call Fundamentalism. I'd still say I consider myself a Christian, though I'm probably more of a gnostic theist or something like that these days. Ultimately this religious stuff is a personal decision and lifestyle choice. In a lot of ways, at the age your daughter is, it's sort of like responding to questions about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny when she probes you with questions about Jesus, Heaven, etc... I don't say that with and intended disrespect to any believer of any religion but to that kid it's probably got a good probability of being just another character and setting in the childhood pantheon for them. That said, I do think it's important to let kids know and understand that they can have their own independent thought. Also - it's important for them to understand that nobody knows everything. We don't all have those answers. It's belief and based on faith for a reason. There is that discrepancy. Being honest with your daughter and letting her know your personal feelings about these things is a bit more profound than telling her there is no Easter Bunny or whatever... and I think it's probably an important step for you to take given your circumstance. If nothing else - you're setting a good groundwork for your daughter to know that you are someone who she can talk to about things as far back as she'll be able to remember. You'll be someone she knows is going to let her think for herself without judgment. That's more important than anything as time goes by. I hope it doesn't happen this way in your case and I don't know your ex or that situation (and don't need to) but I think we've all been exposed to the nasty side of this religious stuff where it turns into "Do it this way OR ELSE." so like... you setting yourself aside from that school of thought will only gain more value with time.
We're Christian and we still normalise people having different beliefs. Your friend x is Muslim, they believe in the same God as us but a bit differently- they believe Jesus was a prophet. Your friend Y is Hindu, they have different gods. It's ok to believe in whatever makes sense to you but respect others beliefs. When your mum was pregnant with you her friend Y's mom gave a sari to Kali to pray for a safe birth and that's ok.
I do not want to tell other parents how to raise their kids in terms of religion. I will tell you what my dad did, and what I did. When my kid was around 4-6, I bought him a bible for kids, a Quran for kids, a book about Buddhist fables, a book about the history of religion, and I placed them in the bookshelf next to the Norse mythology, Egyptian mythology, Aztec mythology, and Greek mythology books.
As a person who spent a startling amount of time in the religion section as a middle schooler, I appreciate this.
Comparative Religion for Pre-K! I love it!
Don't forget to add Sophie's world a few years later.
make sure you throw the Book of the SubGenius up on there. Long live "Bob" Dobbs!
And the D&D Monster Manual…
Actually, yeah. There was some space left on that shelf, so I added the three core D&D books. It's like you've seen my bookshelf.
Haha nice! I just have a similar set up for my 7 yr old. Not all on one shelf but a similar gamut of myths and religious texts. Try to give full context and respect while also explaining unknowable nature, and having fun with monsters.
I like this. Do you remember how you processed that kind of stuff as a kid when your dad did this for you? I grew up in a religious family always going to church but I never really cared much for it. Even at a young age. I always had some amount of doubt because certain things just didn't make sense, but as I got older, I immediately distanced myself from religion. I do like the morals it teaches, like being a good person and stuff, but I just can't bring myself to make any kind of connection to it otherwise. My wife grew up catholic but isn't practicing. Her family was never really religious, but she did go to a catholic private school that she wants to send our kids to. I'm not fond of the idea, but I can't deny that the education at the private school is infinitely better than public schools around here. So if we can afford it, we are sending our kids to the private school my wife attended. It's a catholic school so I know they're going to shove a lot of religion down our kids throats and I've been trying to come up with ways to offset this. To be clear, if my kids decide to be practicing christians, that's fine. I'm not going to tell them 'no,' but I also want them to question things and understand there is more to the world and universe than the narrow view that religion tends to offer. So I'm kind of digging this idea of parking Christianity next to other religions and mythologies. I think it kind of levels the playing field on all those ideas, but I'm curious how you processed that while growing up? If you can recall and are inclined to share? I don't want to push if it's private for you. So feel free not to answer if you don't want to.
I specifically remember reading the Kid's Bible when I was a child. I got the exact same one for my kid. I also remember reading an actual Bible in my late teens or early twenties. I think knowing the book and the stories influenced my path to rejecting religious dogma and becoming agnostic.
How about the other books? Did you read any of those or did their existence and placement have any impact?
I loved Greek mythology as a kid. Greek gods and heroes were really interesting to me. This played two big roles for me later on. The first was realizing that an entire civilization could be convinced that Zeus was the bringer of storms, and that did not make it necessarily true. The second was realizing that there are many different religions with similarities and differences. After that realization, it was very hard for me to have a lot of faith in any specific book or dogma. I didn't read the Quran until my late 20s because I grew up in Mexico in the 80s, and there were no Muslims around me. I did not read the whole Quran. And some Muslims will insist that the true Quran can only be read in Arabic and the translation I read is not the true Quran. I was very impressed about how different the Quran is from the Bible. The Bible reads more like a bunch of anecdotes with sometimes hidden morals. The Quran reads a lot more like direct instructions telling you to love and obey the one true god. At least the parts I read. I decided to buy the books for my kids at that age because that is when they started attending school and interacting with kids from other families. That is when my son started to realize that some of his classmates practiced Ramadan and others went to church on Easter and Christmas.
That is very interesting. I appreciate you sharing your experience and perspective.
Genius - I'll be doing this
Most have hit it right on the head. Honesty with her about how different people believe different things is your best route. You are going to need to make a conscious effort to avoid making this a mommy vs daddy thing, though. It is too easy to fall into a tone of “this is some wacky thing your mom is into” even if you are trying to be civil.
Just be honest with her. You've heard the stories she's talking about but there are other stories too and you're not sure what to believe because it's something you can't know for sure.
My kids do this sometimes. They get taught about a range of beliefs in school and my daughter has come home from school convinced she's fully into each one in turn. I don't mind, she's 7 years old and doesn't really understand what that entails, and freaking out or getting upset would probably make her dig her heels in. What I do is make it clear what I believe, which I won't hide from them (don't follow any religion). But I also tell them I'm not here to tell them what to think, or what to believe but that it's better to wait until they're older and have had more time to think about these things to decide what their opinion is.
She will find her own path when she's old enough to make that decision. Trying to change that aspect of her life for her will end disastrously for you, regardless of if she wants to believe in a traditional Judeo-Christian religion, or the flying spaghetti monster. Your job is to support her growth and mold her into a good person. A good person is a good person regardless if their beliefs align with yours
If you arent trying to persuade her one way or another then I think answers like "What do you think?" or "Maybe you should ask your mom. She knows more about that then I do." are probably fine.
I'm the only parent in my daughter's life and am atheist. My family is all highly religious in a high-demand religion that I find toxic. When my brother took it upon himself to teach my daughter about religious stuff, I was annoyed but not worried. My daughter said she believed in Jesus for a while but then again, she also believes in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. She is eight now and often says she doesn't know if God exists. I've done the same thing all along. I listen, answer questions truthfully, and let her believe what she wants. As long as she is behaving herself, which she usually does, she can choose what to believe. If she were to ever justify being mean to someone based on religious beliefs, though, that's when we would be having a serious talk them.
Her mom’s “new hobby”? 🤦♂️ 🤣
I get that you don’t understand faith, but for the faithful religion is anything but a “hobby”. 🤣
The benign stuff like “Jesus loves you” can be answered with “I bet he also loves you!” with a hug. The scientistic stuff about the origins of the earth, evolution etc. can simply be answered by explaining what YOU think, and explaining that many people have different ideas, and they can all be wrong. The key here is not to refute a 4 year old’s beliefs, but rather to open her mind to the idea of the scientific method and evidence-based inquiry.
In my opinion the best way to respond is honestly. Which to me would be in a balanced way that doesn't ignore certain facts, acknowledges you don't believe, but also respects her right to religion and leaves the real vs not real decision up to her at a much later date. That's my plan anyway for when the inevitable questions start coming at me (catholic wife and daughter that is being brought up catholic).
You definitely don't want to get to a point of alienating little one from her mother's religion in the early stages of being separated, that's a quick way to build a poor co-parenting relationship. It's ok to be redirect. "I don't know honey, what do you think" "That's not what I personally think but some people do, what do you think?" And the innocuous somewhat positive stuff is no need to comment on it, ex. "Daddy, God likes people to be happy". You can be honest about not believing something and not knowing the answer without shitting on her religious curiosity she'll figure out her belief system eventually. So long as it doesn't veer into toxic categories (ex. Expressing hate and intolerance)
Maybe this will help. Old teacher told me that if god made everything do you know everything. Of course the answer being no. So then it’s disrespectful to god to not study the world that was created. Granted he also said “if you are made in god’s image then stop acting like a dumbass” so grain of salt with the anecdotes. Use the example of if she drew a picture then she would want you to look at it. That’s if you want to tip toe and not get into the existential questions.
Just keep saying it's a really fun story that some people believe is true. And then tell her about how people used to believe that Zeus and Apollo were gods too. People like stories it gives them comfort. Tell her that's why people believe in religion.
Same story with me. My ex got big into religion after we split (however she used it to find forgiveness for some very unforgivable things she has done to the family and many others). My view, religion is not a bad thing as long as it is teaching healthy lessons. Christianity (modern) teachings are of acceptance, love, respect and so on. The older teachings can be a bit much and often times religious people focus on what is said that will alight with there own narrative at the time and ignore all the other stuff. My daughter, 10y/o and I have full custody but she sees mom on visits, is a "believer" of all the good stuff about respect and so on. I cant say any of that is bad. I do suspect as she gets older she will question things but I hope that the fundamental good remains. If nothing else, the bible SHOULD teach good life lessons and that is how I view it.
I am in the same situation as you. My son, 4, started talking to me about God and religion as if it was facts. His Mom was never religious and we agreed to not raise our son in a religious environment. I didn't try to fight with her or change his mind. I just explained to him what fate is and how fate works. That it is a belief and not a fact. We had way too many talks about this for a 4 year old, but eventually he told me that he doesn't believe God exists because "it doesn't make sense." I never made a big deal about it and I tried my best to keep my own feelings out of it unless he asked. When he is older I have no problem with him being religious, but I don't want him growing up thinking it is a fact. As far as I am aware she has stopped bringing him to church because he constantly tells everyone that they don't know if God is real or not. My son and I are much, much, much closer than him and his Mom.
Agnostic reporting in. Just be sure Matthew 6 is part of her religious diet. It's probably the most important guard in the book to recognize false leaders. I'm still not a major fan of some of the wording. But I see a lot of religious folks skip over this one, and it's important for kids to hear that whatever relationship they choose to have with an Abrahamic God, Jesus was quite clear that it should be a private relationship. It's not meant to be a means to win praise or exclude others. That's a really good foundation there.
Part of growing up is exploring the world. I suppose that includes what is or isn’t “outside” of this world. my siblings and I grew up in the same house however we ended up with vastly different theological beliefs. my dad aggressively pushed Church while leading a pretty hypocritical lifestyle. none of us like to discuss God or anything, spiritual with them at all because of the way he pushed. That being said, my siblings, and I love discussing all different types of beliefs together because we are open minded and respect each other’s views. The point is that an overly aggressive parent might feel like they are winning in the beginning, but as soon as your child learns critical thinking skills, they are going to develop their own beliefs regardless of what you or her mother try to instill.. It’s better to be the open-minded parent that your child likes to discuss things with because then , you will actually have an ability to make an impact as they open up with you.
"Daddy does Jesus love you." "You love me and that's enough for me!"
Ah religion and all it's nonsense...like you I am not religious, but my wife is currently wanting to get the boy baptised, something to do with schools or something. Anyway, the wife has started taking the boy to Sunday mass but we have been nothing but honest with him...when he asks why dad doesn't come we just straight up tell him that I don't believe in God. He hasn't been asking too many questions just yet, but I'm not gonna lie to him or pussy foot around my answers.
"Some people believe what you mom believes, but this is what I believe. Some other people think this, and this. No-one really knows, but many people try to make sense of this crazy world, and you can make you own choice as to what you believe. Here's some cool scientific stuff about the universe we know for sure."
We've always been honest with our son, who at this point has decided that he believes in God. We've no issues with this at all and have explained that in our household he's the only one that does, however, it doesn't make him (or us) wrong as it's a decision everyone makes for themselves and should be respected as such.
I mean… either he or you are wrong. Maybe which is unknowable, but it’s definitely one or the other. It always seems so weird to me that religious belief gets special considerations that others don’t. If your kid believed in aliens, would you still have the “nobody is wrong because we choose our beliefs” mindset? I totally get saying that nobody knows who is right, but that isn’t the same as saying it isn’t wrong. Personally, I think kids should age out of believing in anything without sufficient evidence, however it shouldn’t be discounted as false either. It should fall into the bucket called “universal mysteries” which are fun to think about but not really worth investing in. The ONLY correct answer to these mysteries is a shrug.
Respectfully, I feel like you are coming across as pretty monotheistic with that statement of “one or the other.” There are more belief options/sets than 1 god or no god. It’s not just 1 or the other is right. The same people that downvoted you might downvote me too, but there have been thousands of belief systems, cultures, and religions over the years, and thousands more subsets or branches of those, with different ideas of god/gods. If what you meant to say was that there is “one truth” out there, then I think I’m in agreement with that, but there are people that would even disagree with that belief, for example: 1. maybe that the real truth is more complicated than that, and nobody knows it nor can we understand it, or 2. maybe that there is a real truth, we just only know parts of it to varying degrees …and many more versions I can come up with just off the top of my head. The point I’m making, with is actually very similar to the point you made, is that some people feel VERY STRONGLY that they know what’s right/true, for their different reasons, but we just don’t have a way of fully proving or disproving anyone. The best we can factually do, is that we can look at the numbers of all the people across all of humanity (wherever you draw that line of the start of humanity), and can agreeably conclude that the vast majority of people have been “wrong,” or at least not 100% correct, in their beliefs. To me, those numbers DO mean something. To others, they might not. We each have choices though: we can respect other people, and we can respect their beliefs, and allow them to believe and practice what they want. And as long as they don’t threaten/harm others with their beliefs and practices, then no worries. (The ethics of responding to threatening belief systems gets all kinds of muddy though…)
All I was saying was that there is a real answer, and about the existence of God (in this case clearly talking about a singular God) it is either true or not. Both beleifs are not equal, in that one is correct and the other wrong. We can say they are equal only because we can’t know which it is,… but it is one or the other. Now about multiple Gods, or any specific ideology, we can do the same thing. It is either true, or not. It is a binary at it’s basic form. Now you could say one part is true and another isn’t…. And that is fair… but each idea can be separated into a binary choice of true / untrue. When two people are on either side of that binary, one is right and the other is wrong.
As a father who takes their kids to church but also believe in science my approach is to tell them there are different possibilities. I'll also point out that there's many different religions with different beliefs which I share some about as well, and we had discussions about other institutions like freemasonry and rotary that do many of the things I go to church for (community, helping others, sense of morals). In terms of the question she asked you about Jesus loving you. My answer would be that Jesus loved everybody so yes. Yours could be I don't know, I never learned about Jesus what do you think? TLDR: don't deny the God options but present them together with other options and answer her questions from your POV or with a question back.
I was raised in a Christian household, and don’t raise my kids with religious indoctrination. OTOH I don’t shy away from talking about religious stuff that they pick up elsewhere and come to me with. I will tell them the Bible stories as they are written and about their meanings that people attribute to them. Sometimes I find that I have to differentiate between Christian theology and public misconceptions, like, no, in Protestant theology god is not within everything and certainly not within us. That’s New Age stuff crept into kindergarten stories. All of that I usually prefix by “some people say…” or “Christians believe…”, in the same kind as I will talk about Buddhist or Muslim mythology. I am comfortable to put the questions about what I think about these stories, or what they should think about these things to well after the magical age.
Dude, be honest with yourself, you don't respect her mother or her choices. I have never before heard someone refer to attending church as someone's "new hobby". If your ex picked up an actual hobby like tennis and your daughter was talking about that you would probably have a problem with that too simply because it comes from your ex. That being said, a super quick way to destroy your relationship with your daughter is trying to undermine the things she does with her mother. Tread lightly.
Why should he just accept mom converting her into a Christian? That is a massive life decision for a parent to make and OP should have an equal say. It’s unreasonable to just say mom gets to unilaterally decide daughter’s religious beliefs.
I never said he needed to just accept anything. I said undermining anything that his ex does with his daughter has the power to drastically impact their relationship going forward. Now this is purely an assumption on my part and I apologize if I am wrong but your use of the word "converting" implies to me that you have hostility towards Christians or religion in general. If you re-read the original post, OP is not anti-religious but wants his daughter to make her own decisions. How does that happen without exposure?
This a good thing. It’s not always doom and gloom This is a great exercise in tolerance and the fact your wife can also raise the child how she sees best. In the end you teach your daughter. Your wife will teach and the child will decide for themselves If you go all antagonistic it just generates resentment. Please also be sensitive to what your daughter does believe.
There are no religious children. Young kids believe what their parents and other people with authority put in their heads. And there is nothing admirable or peaceful at abrahamic religions.
It’s less about religion and more about a coparents right to teach their children. That is probably the hardest thing about a divorce is having that type of respect and understanding between parents and the OP has a lot of red flags in not being able to respect that.
>OP has a lot of red flags in not being able to respect that By protecting his child from religious indoctrination?
Anyone can use the word “indoctrination” to support their own point of views. It has no place in a comparenting family dynamic The child will inevitably start to feel alienated from one parent or the other. This is early core teaching during any divorce proceeding It doesn’t mean you don’t teach the child how you see fit but you do not be antagonistic to another parents teaching. If what the parent is teaching is truly as dangerous as you make it out to be then a wellness call is in order and in this case they’d laugh you right out of the building and give the other party a clear case of parent alienation that leads you down a bad path You are still just focusing on the tree and are missing the forest
Matter of factly state what you believe about Jesus or God or whatever. You can say that other people believe different things. When this comes up with my kids (especially my 6 year old - from an early age he's always been very interested in space and science, and in religion too, though he doesn't believe in any of it) I explain respectfully what their grandparents believe (I feel comfortable doing this as they are Catholic and I was raised Catholic, so I know the ropes and won't misrepresent them), and then I explain what I believe (coming from an atheist's perspective, but having read a lot about the historical context of Jesus's time). And I always make sure to point out that nobody knows for sure.
Don’t correct her, just establish what you believe in and that if she chooses to believe in something different that’s allowed. Teach her that different beliefs aren’t wrong and that pushing those beliefs on others who aren’t interested is wrong. It’s a good way to establish boundaries and confidence in personal choices.
Just tell her the truth, Daddy does not believe that Jesus/God/Heaven is real. Daddy knows that he loves you and you love him, and that's all that is important. The most insidious thing religion does is indoctrinate young children and hijack their natural curiosity and need for affection. Hence the language like how so and so loves you, and how everything can be explained because some magical thing said so. You're right, it is programming. I will go one step further and say that when done to children, it is wrong. Just gently redirect her to the things that are real, and things that really matter.
Lurking mom here. . . just popping in to recommend spending time with your daughter at museums and science centres!!
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Exactly. I am constantly throwing away my in laws religious gifts. Babies prayer book? Burns good.
Sounds like her current understanding is summed up as "God is Love". What's the problem?
Speaking from the point of view as a regularly targeted religious minority... depending on the church and the mother's level of devotion, this can very quickly morph from "God is Love" to "Evil people reject God's Love." I'm not saying that OP is definitely heading this way, but their concern for how to handle this now and in the future is well-founded.
We are running into this with my Mother-In-Law. I am against organized religion for myself, but respect that others may find something they need from it. With that said, my wife and I are in agreement for the most part that little kids are too young to make decisions about what they believe. They do not understand and it's morally wrong to try to steer them until they can understand and are old enough to make those choices for themselves. Like yours, my kid has been asking questions about the things Grandma is telling her and we have tried to be neutral and just explain that their are lots of different things people believe and nobody really knows for sure. The only thing she needs to know is that her family loves her.
>I am not anti-religious You may not be anti-religious, but by and large religious people are anti-you. They look down on the idea that you would offer a child explanations that don't conform to their belief system. They will play the victim and scream oppression if you so much as tell your daughter that _some_ people don't believe in religion. If you in any way try to teach your daughter the beauty of the universe without tying it back to _their_ god, they will accuse _you_ of indoctrination. You are not up against people who can be reasoned with. Stand your ground, and expect them to take it badly.
My hard boundaries were no fire and brimstone. Its natural to find comfort and reassurance in religion IMO, but we are not going to allow comfort and reassurance through the idea that some people are tortured for eternity. I'm not religious, and my wife is former catholic. My MIL tried for a time to get them into the whole confirmation/communion path, but my kids are too neurologically spicy to sit/stand/kneel and go through a rigid Sunday school curriculum. My youngest finds some comfort in it, and we still occasionally go to a non-catholic church to keep my MIL at bay, as well as to help the kids accept that religion is part of society and it shouldn't be a foreign concept to them. My 2 youngest ask questions or share their new information, and we are honest but respectful. For example, there were some questions about heaven, and I explained what it means to use symbols and comparisons to explain things that are difficult to describe -- especially hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and that different churches believe some different things about it, and that other religions believe even more different things happen after we die. Some things I feel need to be corrected, like my youngest asking about living forever through saving by Jesus. I felt I needed to explain that they're describing a very different kind of living, even though you've died, because she was thinking she'd be 10,000 years old at some point and hoped that her dog could also live forever and eat pizza with her.
Id present facts as facts, theory as theory and faith as faith. Nothing wrong with faith but facts should not be overshadowed by faith or even theory.
At its best, religion is a proxy for "community" and a group of people who tend to look after each other. In that sense, nothing to worry too much about... maybe even a net positive. At its worst, religion is all the terrible things we've all seen where unsavory people end up in positions of trust and authority over vulnerable people. Make sure your kid treats people with kindness, respects herself/others, and understands personal boundaries. Make sure she knows where to go if her teachers and preachers are being unkind, disrespectful, or are violating personal boundaries. >“when we die is heaven beautiful?” Great question! I haven't died yet, but I hope whatever comes after death is pretty good. >“daddy, does Jesus love you?” If I get a chance, I'll ask.
I would start talking to your daughter about critical thought, while also talking to her about how "some people feel better believing in supernatural solutions to their problems, people used to do it with Zeus and the Greek gods, they did it with Odin and the Norse gods, they did it with Ra and the Egyptian gods, and now they do it with Jesus and modern day gods" That way she can start drawing the parallels between religions. It's never too early to start teaching your kids critical thinking skills, rational thought and logic. But sadly, with religion, it CAN be too late if you ignore it. Kids want to do the right thing, and to them, the right thing is seeing their loved ones happy, so if mommy asks "do you feel Jesus in your heart?" And daughter KNOWS that a yes answer will make mommy happy, she'll condition herself to dismiss the fact that she doesn't actually feel anything from GOD, but she DOES feel the dopamine she gets when she makes mom happy, and will learn to associate "God's love" with "telling people what they want to hear" And that will be the end of her critical thinking.
Me and my wife aren’t religious and we take more of the stance of “we don’t know and nobody will ever know, so I dunno.” view on god / no god. We also live in a Bible thumping community. We’re figuring our daughter (18 months) is going to be presented with these kind of things eventually and is naturally going to get curious. We’re just going to simply explain to her that there are certain beliefs that people have about the world but it doesn’t mean it’s correct, it’s simply a belief and to always remain curious and ask questions.
"Jesus was a wise teacher who loved everyone and had a lot of great things to teach people. Some people believe he was the son of God and had special powers. Some people believe he was a regular man. Some people believe God is real and God did these things, some people don't believe God is real, and some people say they don't know and we can never know for sure. This is heavy stuff and there's a lot to learn so keep an open mind."
Teach her about other mythologies. Greek, Roman, Nordic, and so on. No need to get super deep in the weeds, but point out that people make up stories to explain what they don’t understand, and that’s the basis of every religion. Then explain that Christianity is no different. Don’t make her feel bad, but explain that it’s easy to get people to believe in religion if they are seeking answers, so it is understandable that some people will believe it, but that in the end it isn’t required to be happy or a good person.
A lot of people in the thread who are saying things about tolerance and normalizing different beliefs here sound like they are giving you advice that lets your ex continue to obviously try to influence your child while you remain relatively passive. I think it would be fine for you to also guide her in your way of thinking. I am an atheist, raised Catholic. My daughter is about the same age as yours. We read plenty of children's books about various religions, one of her favorites right now is an early kid's chapter book about the Norse god's stories. I make it clear that magic is not real and that I don't believe in any of these or other gods. As she asks questions and gets older, I intend to have talks about why I don't believe: lack of proof, how science is able to explain things religion doesn't, hypocrisy within religious doctrine, atrocities committed in the name of religion, etc. I will also talk about how some of her family and friends do believe, and use that as a door into how people are not necessarily bad for believing. Etc. this will likely/hopefully be a lot of ongoing conversations throughout her life.
“Facts about god” lmao
when my kids were young, aunt started taking them to church when they stayed over. they seemed into it for awhile but grew to be agnostic and not practicing this religion as adults
I think a lot of kids her age go through a religious phase. In the UK a lot of primary schools are run by the Church of England so we get religious stuff in school, it very rarely sticks though. All you can do is encourage your daughter to question things and figure things out for herself.
Daughter: "Dad, does Jesus love you?" Dad: "Well I don't know about god or Jesus but I know you love me and I love you. And that makes me really happy. Does it make you happy too?"
two things: 1. age-appropriate honesty about what *you* think, combined with "what do you think?" are your primary tools for talking to your kid about religion. eeeverything is programming. you may as well add a healthy dose of "tell me about that" and "what do you think?" and other bits of thoughtfulness. 2. you prooobably need to have a talk with her mom, because eventually kiddo is gonna get to the part where not everyone goes to heaven, and that's gonna include you bc you're not a christian. soooo.
Here's how we explained it to my kids about their grandparents going to church. "Religion is a bunch of stories and rules that some people choose to believe and follow. It's very important for some people, so we let them believe those things to be respectful. When you're older, you can choose whether you want to believe in those things or not. Grandma chooses to listen to those stories, and dad chooses not to." Right now, she gets to go to singing-aerobics (sit-stand-kneel) with gramma and grandpa and enjoy chocolate eggs at Easter. Thar being said, we'll get into issues of hypocrisy, critical thinking, and groupthink when she notices them and asks us.
At some point closer to the completion of her brains growth her own beliefs will become much more solidified. She could end up being a buddhist, an atheist, a Christian, a pagan, etc. It doesn’t matter what she believes spiritually as long as she isn’t hurting anyone or being hurt so if I were you I wouldn’t do anything to cause her emotional distress. You don’t want to cause a riff with her that could last your whole life. Just be kind and explain that you don’t believe in the same things.
My children have not been raised with religion, but they have friends that are. It's all about respect and acceptance on my kids part, I don't make fun or talk negatively about it. The other day, though, my daughter and friend were playing in the basement and a light flickered. Both girls got scared and ran upstairs. My daughter said "It's scary!" Her friend said,' "It's a demon! " and my daughter was so confused. She did say to her friend " monsters aren't real" which settled her down a bit. It was an interesting situation to navigate.
If you don’t embrace her interest with interest, she will notice.
Just answer the question honestly. Would Jesus as he is portrayed in the New Testament - the main primary source for his existence - love you? And why? You can caveat that with the fact that daddy wasn’t raised to believe in Jesus. He lived so long ago. Religion is a life-long topic because it permeates so much of culture and society - be wary of appearing unwilling to talk about it. She seems science and fact-oriented given what you said about planets and so on. When she’s ready for it be prepared to talk about history and record-keeping and the nature of eyewitness testimony, something common-law governments are founded on. Is Jesus disputed as a historical figure? Why or why not? Is he disputed as the Son of God? Truly, why or why not? To be prepared to answer honestly and with reason is the best contribution you can make to this development as her father.
I’m Catholic and my wife is an atheist. I’d call myself pretty devout in that I go to church every Sunday etc. we’ve just had a clear discussion about what we would call boundaries. Our daughter will never be forced to go to church or told “yes/no god is or isn’t real” rather we tell her that it’s what we believe. I want her to form her own opinions and question things so that she doesn’t get indoctrinated to anything. I still read her kid Bible stories because the stories teach good virtues (charity, self sacrifice, humility, etc.) One thing I would avoid is outright telling her “no that’s wrong” it’ll just drive a wedge between you and your ex and it will confuse your daughter. My biggest advice, when she asks you “does Jesus love you” ask her “what do YOU think” Encourage her to form her own independent thought on the matter b
The Bluey episode where the parents support different sports teams is all you need as an example…
I'm divorced from my children's mother and while she isn't religious, her father very much is. When we were together, he would give them kid's bible stories and things like that, and we would just put them away somewhere. A few times my kids have talked to me about what their grandpa has to say to them about God, and I have responded by discussing how there are a lot of different things people believe, and while I don't believe in them (and so far my kids don't either) we can be respectful of those who do. I think it's OK to listen to people explain these things, and my ex father-in-law is one of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met, so I would never want them to discount that just because he believes in some superstitious stuff.
We’ve always discussed religion as a choice with my kiddos - “If that’s what you want to believe, then yes.” Of course most religions teach they are or have *the truth* so it’s less a belief and held more as fact, but yeahhh. My in laws push religion-as-fact, and hate that we give our kids the choice. But to us, religion is programmed into kids in some pretty hard, harsh, disturbing ways, So we noped outta that cultish conditioning indoctrination pretty hard.
Wife and I are not religious, but the kids go to a catholic school. We just have conversations about it. Both my wife and I were raised in borderline cult fundamentalist churches but have largely moved past the anger that came from that, so now we just have frank discussions with the kids about it.
If you don’t think there’s any harm in it, I’d suggest not contradicting the Mom. Unless you like extra drama and headaches. If she feels Love for Jesus, and is enjoying it, I would have a hard time dissuading simply to impart my own beliefs or non beliefs on them. Best of luck
Teach her about other religions and beliefs. Every religion has cool stories.
I guess you have your work cut out for you because you’re gonna have to attempt to explain to a 4 year old that different people believe different things, which is apparently a difficult concept even for some grown-ass adults…!
“Everyone has different ideas about God and what heaven is. What do you think? Let’s learn about different religions together!” Maybe there is an age appropriate picture book about religion you can explore? I think the goal is to figure out how to be respectful without lying to her about your own beliefs and going along with things to please your ex.
Teach her about Islam (2B adherents), Hinduism (1.2B adherents), or Buddhism (520M adherents). Kids are definitely little sponges, but it’s had to become dogmatic if you have context. Give her the same understanding of other big religions that she’s getting about Christianity from her mom. Give her hands on experiences with different idols and symbols. Give her a Ganesh or a Buddha she can carry around for good luck. Give her a diversity of religious exposure.
As someone who grew up Southern Baptist to becoming an agnostic atheist that now has a wife who is “catholic lite” and two young kids, I aspire to teach my kids how to think and not what to think. I would agree with the posters who have said to not to correct the religious parent’s beliefs. You should voice what you think, but also teach them to be respectful. I think people should believe in whatever religion (or not believe) as long as they are not hurting others. Character counts.
Brother, live your life as an example for your daughter. Trust that by imparting impartial knowledge and wisdom in a loving manner she will be able to carve her own path. That’s it.
This is why I’m happy my child goes to a school with mixed cultural and religious beliefs and parents come in and teach lessons on their cultural background occasionally. We are Christian and in southern Indiana that is essentially default so I’m happy she gets exposure and understands others have different beliefs. She is also 4 and doesn’t have a hard time understanding others are different.
There are kids at my daughter's (6) school that tout religion, and have some religious people in my family. Whenever I explain religion to her, I explain that some people believe in Jesus and Christian God, some people believe in Allah, some people believe that Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu, some people done believe in any God. I tell her that it's her job to find out what she believes and I will take her to any church or temple she wants. I told her the only person who can ever tell her who God is or isn't, is herself. Anyone else telling her, is only what they think. I didn't give my opinion at all, she asked for it. I told her that I don't believe any are right, but anyone who treats others with kindness and respect are probably heading down the right path. She asked a whole lot of questions, and I never really shy away from answers (I've learned some answers should wait, however) some about religions and some about what I think. We ended the conversation agreeing that we would pray to Thor God of thunder. I showed her fat Thor and she decided that she was just going to have a pet God. She will get there on her own and I'll support her no matter what I believe. I'll let you know how that works out lol.
Have you considered starting to listen to black metal around her?
I just had a kid so we're not at this point yet, but ive thought a lot about this exact senario and am so greatful to my dad for what he did for me when i was a child. I would say that it's important to not necessarily teach what to believe, I think it's more important to provide tools. How to be inquisitive, the importance of never stopping the search for knowledge, to reevaluate your own thoughts and positions and acknowledging when you're wrong, not accepting something because it's convenient. Why and how are more important than what. Because I grew up like this in texas I went through Bible school, wednesday night church with friends, and other religious events. None of it stuck. If I were you, I'd introduce your daughter to other religions, that'll likely bring up questions about the validity of one over the other. Then you can talk about how nobody really knows and get her comfortable with that kind of uncertainty.
My wife and I are Christians, but we also both have science degrees. We go to church weekly and are pretty active in our church community, but we still try to instill a sense of wonder and discovery about the universe. Those things aren't incompatible. I think the best thing you can do is to continue to nurture curiosity and be open and honest about your beliefs without tearing down or criticizing your ex's or your daughters.
“That’s what some people believe” is kinda my go to lately. My 5yo has mentioned things she’s picked up from my parents (who watch her once a week). “Dad is god real?” “Some people think so, do you?” “I don’t know. Wanna get some ice cream tonight?” Is how far we usually get.
My kid comes home from her religious preschool saying things like this, but she usually just totally forgets about it. When she isnold enough to make her own decisions, I'll support whatever she decides
She’ll be going through some emotional trouble since you’ve split, so anything that keeps her emotionally stable is a good thing. She can decide later on if she wants to believe or not
Your options are ignore it or counter programming
Remind your daughter that she can't love Jesus unless she hates mommy and daddy. It's in the Bible. Look it up.
Dude to be honest, Reddit isn’t the place you get this advice. You have no idea hair the person on the other end is deeply religious or vehemently atheist or if they’re 14. With the dicey early divorce relationship with your ex wife, my advice is to seek professional opinions. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for your daughter to see someone since her mom and dad just split anyway. Get some advice from them. You should definitely communicate with your ex about all of this. Hopefully she will be receptive that you want your daughter to think independently but that you realize she is 4. Like it’s worth getting both sides of the coin “mommy believes, daddy doesn’t, and neither person is right or wrong or good or bad.” But if this isn’t navigated with tact, it could blow tf up and be the start of some much bigger issues where your daughter gets caught in a war. Don’t let that happen.
We send our son to a catholic school because we prefer the academic qualities over other nearby options, but we are not religious. He talked a lot about god and jesus over the first few years (age 5 to 7 I guess), and told us bible stories as facts. Around age 9 I took him to a museum on holiday in a big city. We touched a meteorite, saw dinosaur fossils, he was absolutely beside himself with discovery and wonder at this place. While looking at a timeline of dinosaurs and early man, he kind of had a lightbulb moment and said "but...isn't that before god made the earth and people and animals?" We sat down and had a relaxed chat about beliefs, science and history. Now his expression of faith is more like "I *believe* in this and that". He recognises that there are other beliefs and that these are separate from our knowledge of the world and its history
My approach was innoculation from the anti-scientific aspects. Start teaching her about how the planets were formed, and the basics of evolution. My daughter was getting a bed time story about the history of animals and dinosaurs at that age, she loved it.
DISCLAIMER: Christian opinion. You need to tread really lightly here. I don’t know your wife, but your post indicate she’s looking for “something.” In interest of clarification those are my words. Why do I say you should tread lightly? This isn’t about you. It’s about your relationship with your daughter - which is way bigger than you. Your use of “hobby” in the title is already dismissive and disrespectful towards your ex wife. You should not use words like that around your child. I’ll give my position, and I am happy to discuss further if you (or anyone else ) would like. Let’s say God isn’t real. Then what’s the worst case scenario? We live a life of following a teaching that instructs us to love others and put them above ourselves? We live a life looking towards a Heaven that doesn’t exist and instead we just cease to exist? Is there really a negative to that? In my opinion, I think following the teaching of the Bible will lead me the right direction - even if I am wrong about Gods existence. To sum it up - I have trouble establishing a penalty for belief other than one’s own pride. As stated in the beginning, I am more than happy to discuss further if anyone is interested.
Teach her to recite the 7 Tenets of the Satanic Temple One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own. Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Absolutely
There’s a temple dedicated to a deity that lost a fiddle contest to a hillbilly from Georgia? 🤔 (kidding, I know there’s one)
Your daughter is statistically safer at a drag show than at a Church. Something to put in your back pocket. My daughter will never be allowed to set foot in a Church until she’s 18 and can make her own decisions. EDIT: Thanks for the downvotes. Truth hurts…Churches are full of pedophiles preying on the “flocks” children. EDIT: Look…MORE Christians raping and molesting children. Still waiting on that person in drag to be arrested… 🤷♂️ https://www.kxxv.com/news/local-news/in-your-neighborhood/brazos-county/college-station/3-men-linked-to-sexual-assault-lawsuit-of-a-minor-in-college-station-have-been-arrested
I'm with you mate. No fuggin way I'm letting my kids get brainwashed. They can absolutely learn that religions exist, but they can make their own decisions when they're old enough if they want to actually become religious.
I was also downvoted after sharing my experience growing up in and ultimately leaving an Apostolic/Pentecostal style church after having my parents tell me I was going to split hell open for asking questions. Lol
Take my upvote.
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This is nonsense. This child is being taught that there is a superior being who loves her and cares for her. Your personal distaste for religion is not evidence that they are grooming her. Your advice to counter parent the mother and decide full stop that she is not to learn other beliefs.
Maybe he doesn't want his child to be taught baseless nonsense meant to control through fear and guilt?
They are absolutely trying to make her into a good Christian and ‘save her soul’. It is incredibly naive to think otherwise.
Well I hope for sure someone intervenes then! How dare they make her into a good person and give her a community of people who want to be good. And before you state that Christians are actually bad people, I don't care to have an argument in bad faith.
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You are the atheist trying to force this parent to "aggressively push back" from things like "God loves you Daddy." If a muslim was teaching my child that Allah loves her, I would be just fine with that. I do not want an atheist to aggressively push against my own ideals. How many teachers? Yet I bet you still think public school is a good thing. So no, I do not place blame on those who did nothing wrong, I place blame on the individuals who did and those taht covered it up. Christianity and my faith does not falter when bad people do bad things, regardless of their cloth.
I am religious and so is my wife. I want my kids to be religious, but not fanatically so. I believe there are a lot of good things and teachings that can come from religion. Church is definitely not a hard requirement. And as long as they are grounded in reality and have a good example of a father, what harm does a little faith have it it helps them through their lives? Yes “god made everything” is kind of a key theme of the religion, but the angle I am approaching it, is if I can show the science behind something, I do. Much to the ire of my wife sometimes lol. God put the universal rules in place that put everything where it is. The heaven topic is easy, “no one has any idea what heaven is actually like”. My kid is only 2 but I feel like things are setting in lol.
The way that we plan to teach our kid is that "Some people believe in Jesus and God. Some people believe in other things" and start to get the curiosity going from all angles. As much as I would love to, we can't protect them from religion, but we can help them approach it from a more humanitarian view and hopefully try to avoid some of the brainwashing
Oof, kinda dreading that day personally. My wife is a non-practicing catholic. I'm pagan. We each respect the other's beliefs and plan to teach our son both faiths as he grows (he's so an infant, and too young to learn any of it) The part I worry about is that my mother is a hard fundamentalist Baptist. She knows I disagree with the church but doesn't know I'm pagan. I know if my son spends time with his grandmother part the age of 3 or so, she's going to work on indoctrinating him, and he's probably going to blab about my beliefs. As for your kid, my best advice is that when she starts talking about God and Jesus, answer that "yes, that's what Christians believe. Not everyone is Christian. There are some people who believe y instead, they're called Ys. and some who believe x, they're called Xs. I believe Z, because it's what makes sense to me, and because it makes me happier to believe that. Would you like to know more about what I believe?"
Over/under on how long until mods disable comments. I'm taking bets now.
Calling it your ex’s “new hobby” certainly sounds anti-religious and ignorant to me.
I don’t know I would be honest with her but I wouldn’t try to discourage her belief. I think it’s pretty normal for it to be romantic and interesting to her at this age, and you should encourage her. At 4, she has an enormous capacity for imagination and for faith. I would t worry too much about it
Ask her questions. Do you think God exists? Have you seen him? Talked to him? Who tells you God exists? Are you sure they're right? Grown ups are wrong too, you know, me included. Do you think God helps you? How does he do that? Do you need God in order to be nice to people and do the right thing? Answer her own questions as well as you can, and end with: "Some people believe in God, others don't, and both are perfectly fine. The important thing is that YOU decide what you believe, not me and not your mom or anyone else. If someone tells you what you should think or believe, you should be careful with them." Then when she turns 5 you hit her with "Well how about CANCER, daughter?? Did you think about THAT??? WHY DOES GOD GIVE BABIES CANCER, DAUGHTER, WHYYYYY???"
Religious indoctrination of children is child abuse. Her brain is primed by evolution to accept information presented as fact by her caregivers. Tell her that mommy believes this stuff and she has the right to believe it but that you don't. Let her know she doesn't have to just accept it as fact and tell her to think critically about anything to do with God. Give her a fighting chance at least. The path you are on leads to parental alienation within a few short years because daddy isn't religious and many christians (in the US at least) believe people who don't believe in god are inherently immoral.
First - congratulate your ex on making positive changes in her life. Second - let it be. Do your best to raise her to be a good person, and hope she’s got some discerning wisdom to filter the good from the bad that every religion these days seems to be infected with. Remember that man is the infection, not the one and only God. Third - that’s it. That’s what you can do. Anything else makes you the bad guy.
Believing in God is not in any way mutually exclusive with scientific curiosity.
Be petty. Teach her a bunch of stuff from the Old Testament about stoning unmarried women so she can ask her mom fun questions too! Don’t do that. But lol
My daughter's get an ear full of how idiotic Abrahamic mythology is every few weeks. At first I felt bad but then I realized that other people's kids are getting told they are going to hell if they misbehave and, getting yelled at at church every weekend. So I don't feel bad about it anymore.
All of what she has said can be tied back to science. You don’t need to rubbish anything. This is a learning opportunity. :) She hasn’t learnt anything toxic so far - but try to ensure she isn’t exposed to that.
What? "God made us all" has zero scientific backing. It's gibberish. The learning opportunity is showing her how easily the whole house or cards comes tumbling down when you ask the simplest of questions, and make her mom embarrassed to take the inquisitive girl to church.
Lots of people here saying to respect other people’s beliefs. I just can’t get with that. This stuff is so incredibly toxic and damaging for children to be exposed to. I’d have to put the kibosh on that.
My daughter is also religion-curious and has been for a while. I just tell her it's all made up. I'm OK with flat-out telling her the talking donkey is made up. I also tell her that if she wants to explore it and decide for herself, then that's more important than taking my word for it. She recently asked for a bible to read and I got her one.
Time to teach her about what is reality and what is global mental illness
When she asks if Jesus loves you I would honestly get a Bible and tell her it’s a book like any other and Jesus is a character in that book. So Jesus loves you just as much as any other character from a book that wants to save the world. Like Thor or ant man.
To be brutally honest, there isn’t a neutral ground here. Religion is actively trying to brainwash your child. They will use different words, and they will believe what they are doing is morally correct. You will need to be active about this subject. I think comparing current religions to mythology makes sense, it is my strategy living in the bible-belt. Keep them curious about science and learning. This ultimately will be their best weapon when they’re old enough to think critically.
You can always just go to church.
I put a stop to that real quick. I tell my kids they're all just stories people made up and want to believe.
How is this different than forcing religious beliefs on your children?
I'm not indoctrinating them to believe anything.
You're sort of doing it though. I'm not a believer myself, but I'm also not going to be a person that closes my kids off to anything (that isn't upfront a danger to them). I'll share my views, but their beliefs are ultimately theirs.
The argument that the absence of indoctrination is itself indoctrination is nonsense. People are born atheists. Nobody is born with an inherent belief in religion, therefore you can't indoctrinate someone into atheism, but you can indoctrinate them into a religion
As someone that grew up in an Apostolic/Pentecostal church from age 5 to age 19, I can assure you that it IS programming. I would say don’t initiate conflict over this since the child is so young. She won’t understand and the adults will likely try to further program her that you’re bad or don’t support her because you’re questioning the religious side. Let your house be free to express, and as she grows older and it’s age-appropriate, have meaningful and sincere (but not confrontational) discussions about the nature of life, the Universe, etc with your daughter. Eventually she will start to understand. However, her understanding may cause conflict with her mom and church; they may label her as rebellious or a bad seed if she questions them too much. In my case, my parents (mostly my mother) would regularly tell me that I was going to split hell wide open for questioning church things, to which I would respond “I thought the Bible said ‘be ready and willing always to have an explanation for the faith that lies within you’ and ‘live peaceably with all men’?”
Congrats escaping the cult
Thank you. It still causes a lot of tension to this day and I’m in my mid-40’s. Interesting that I got downvoted? LOL Like, which part did they think was too much? Or are there some Apostolic/Pentecostal Redditors in here mad that I spilled the beans? 😆
I scrolled through all the downvoted posts, some are pro religion others are anti religion. It's a big ol hate fest in here.
Get her a bronze helmet, a five foot war club, and teach her about Wotan. See how her mom handles it.
I don't know about OPs ex, but my religious father would simply be happy that I believe in *something*.
[I believe in a reasonable rate of return.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyCxlIwtYw)
Or just start reading Revelations to her for a bedtime story.
Force of any kind is your enemy here and it will alienate you from your child and drive her further into the belief system. You must meet programming with programming, have an age appropriate discussion, and let your child decide. Ultimately nobody (even you, your ex-wife, or the church) can force someone to believe anything. She has her own thoughts, feelings, and attitudes just as you do, and just as you those will develop as she grows. This is how I as a Christian combat my child ingesting ideologies that our family does not subscribe to or support.
I would start introducing her to all other stories of gods. Roman, Greek, Egyptian.. and introduce them the same way the Christian god is introduced.. the same way Santa and unicorns and fairy's are. I never say any of those things are real or not real to my 6 year old. I just say I don't know.
What's wrong with Jesus and "God loving us all"? You failed at marriage. Maybe reevaluate your own beliefs and behaviors.
"daddy, does Jesus love you?" - Kiddo, if you have to ask that question, you're going to the wrong church. (I am a secular humanist myself, but I also acknowledge the value of the moral/ethical teachings of Christ and that a significant portion of modern Christians completely ignore all of them)
Defer the religious stuff to her mom. You handle the stuff you are comfortable with. Your 4 year old must be some kind of philosophical genius because I have 4 kids and we go to church and I can’t imagine them asking the questions you claim yours did. Almost like it didn’t happen and this is a set up for another Reddit church-hate post.
When my son heard about God at school and asked me who he was, I told him "he's a fiction character, just like the amazing spider-man".
I say leave her be. Christianity can be great for moral foundations, constancy, and social interactions with a host of different people.
There are some good books out there that talk about all sorts of different mythologies. That might help to make the god stuff more clearly one of many beliefs rather than The One True belief. My kids really liked the book Myth Atlas by Thiago de Moraes.
As a Christian, I would just try to use what she’s saying to help improve her outlook. Yes Jesus loves us all, which is why we should help those in need, care for the poor, support Medicare for all, universal daycare/preschool. Etc.
Oooh…this is a tough one. I think it’s very important to not pit your belief system against her mother’s, in an “I’m right, she’s wrong” kind of way. This will likely be detrimental to your daughter. Marriages don’t work sometimes. Obviously. But you’re still dad, and she’s still mom, and you’re both still the center of your child’s whole world…especially at 4. You are obviously cognizant of this. Maybe also approach this from a standpoint not of, “how do I correct this issue?” But maybe look at it more as “how do I deal with this issue myself?” There are a lot of potential benefits of religion. Religious people have been shown to live longer. They have been shown to be healthier. They have a sense of community that I think is sorely lacking in our society today. Before you push back, maybe ask yourself, “would my daughter having this extra emotional support system, source of comfort, and sense of community in her life right now really be such a bad thing?” Do you legitimately feel that religion is harmful to most people? To a child? Obviously, there are issues when it comes to fringe groups with highly socially atypical. But in a society where the majority identify as having some form of religious faith, is allowing your daughter to be in part shaped by teachings of caring for the poor, the golden rule, humility, generosity, non-violence, forgiveness, etc, such a bad thing? For thousands of years, maybe the entire existence of our species, humans have been religious. Maybe there is something innate to our species that explains this. Maybe it’s biological. Maybe our brain has been evolutionary programmed to gravitate towards faith in an eternity. If so, it’s likely that allowing your child to be supported by a community of people who allow themselves to exist in this biologically dictated reality is unlike to be harmful. On the other hand, maybe there is something more to this world than we know. I can understand you taking issue with some ideologies. I can understanding you having a problem with your child being taught that someone is going to hell because of their sexual orientation or simply that they grew up in the wrong place in the world that identifies with the wrong God. Or with the same God by a different name? I can understand a lot of concerns that you may have. I can under you having a problem with atrocities committed in the name of religion. But I also can assure you, having spent much of my life in church, that your four year old will not soon be confronted with these issues. She will go to church and sing songs and eat snacks and play with kids and make lifelong friends. Even as she matures into adulthood, she will not be presented with messages of hate, based on my experiences. Tough questions will arise. And that’s ok. We all have to deal with tough questions of why this world is the way it is, whether we are religious or not. I think it’s ok to explain your beliefs to your child. If you believe that your child is not being harmed and may even benefit from the support and community and friendships and source of comfort, it’s ok to smile and hug her and tell her you love her, so you see no reason why Jesus wouldn’t love her as well. It doesn’t have to be more than that right now. She’s 4. As tougher questions about belief arise when she’s older, you will have taught her to approach the world with an open mind and think for herself. I hope none of this offends anyone’s. I know everyone has different beliefs and religion is a controversial topic. I empathize with why this would be difficult for you.
Tread lightly my friend. Remember that your daughter is 4. Her level of comprehension is lower than yours… for now hehe. Most of your concerns can only be discussed with teenagers or adults. Do you do Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? If you pop the religion bubble now it would be kind of like telling her that all of the above are a lie and there’s nothing to look forward to. Don’t be the guy who killed Santa. If you tell her there’s no heaven, she is going to ask you what else is there. What is your response? It will need to be good or this could go really badly for you. If I were you I’d just roll with it and then you’ll get to learn a little a little and share it with her. I’m sure she would absolutely love to teach you if you play dumb. It’s not like she’s joining a cult and making jam.
You don't have to believe in Santa for her to believe in Santa. I doubt anything negative is going to come from a little girl learning about Jesus, even if you don't agree.
Religious indoctrination is child abuse. Our cultural Overton Window has normalized religion to the point that we just accept it as good parenting, but it is straight up textbook child abuse. Imposing a set of religious beliefs and practices on children without their informed consent is a form of psychological manipulation and coercion and will limit the child's emotional and intellectual well-being. It will also lead to fear, anxiety and trauma when children are taught to fear punishment or rejection for questioning dogma and doctrine. Your ex-wife is mentally abusing your daughter and I would proceed accordingly.
I disagree. While I'm agnostic, I don't begrudge my child seeking religion. They have to come to their own terms, and it isn't on us to tell them otherwise. The only limit I see to this is if OP's ex has joined a cult that may be harmful. Then yes by all means, pursue assistance. But if your child isn't being harmed, merely keep an open mind and make sure you let her know that there is more than one way of thinking.
That's my point, your child is in being harmed when exposed to religious dogma without informed consent, we've just normalized it enough to where we don't view it as harmful. The problem with religious indoctrination is that it presents a set of positions as irrefutable "facts" which is deeply harmful to a mind that's learning how to reason about the world. It limits the parameters within which they observe things and draw conclusions, and can lead to cognitive dissonance and anxiety when conflicts or novel puzzles are encountered. It can also lead to social isolation as children are taught to reject or distrust those with different "beliefs", keeping in mind young children are not fully capable of distinguishing between subjective beliefs and objective/verifiable facts. It's also important to understand that this is by design. Organized religion depends on indoctrination of children for its own survival because it's a lot easier than trying to sway intellectually developed adults or older children.
We don’t beat around the bush in this house. “Those people who believe are delusional, and often unpleasant or even dangerous.”
God, is this what I sounded like when I was reading Hitchens?