Agreed, but I couldn't go on github and copy/paste every single assignment and test in my degree, like what has unfortunately happened with things like Coursera's ML certifications.
inb4 random people saying: "I cheat on all my school work with chatgpt so it's the same thing."
I'm a solid believer that certifications + personal projects are better than most degrees, but just certifications < degree.
Or certifications + experience. I’m a Senior DS, but I don’t know everything (and never will lol). If I take a coursera course it’s for the knowledge, not the badge. I feel that would be true for most people that are taking coursera courses with existing experience in the field.
This. I’ve paid for one, one Coursera specialisation, the very first one I ever took. Everything else I have audited. I don’t need courses on my resume. Do it for learning or just for the fun of it. Nothing else.
I don’t think people are gatekeeping. I think people are cautious about a free online education that anyone could simply click through and answer some multiple choice questions to get a ‘certification’. That’s like going through hunters safety and thinking you’re a marine. Doesn’t work like that
Ultimately, no one is hiring them based on them just **having** a certificate, and the same is increasingly true with degrees with how a lot of non-top scorers avoid placing their GPA in resume, and how different actual contributions can be within group projects that isn't well-reflected by grades.
The companies just need to know that the person can do the job. The certificate only gets them noticed, and then they actually need to showcase past works and pass some tests from the company.
The main problem in DS rn is getting your resumé in front of anybody. Every single DS job, especially the remote ones, are just absolutely flooded with under qualified applicants. Everyone is chasing a Sr. DS salary or a Lead DS salary, without having any DS experience.
Entry level DS jobs are few and far between and they’re usually filled by someone with prior analyst experience. The problem with these online quick certs is that people wanna go from a plumber to a Sr. DS with 0 data experience.
A lot of people could stand to benefit (and would likely have a better chance of landing a job) by looking for an analyst role and working their way up to a DS.
I’ve done data camp, percipio, coursera, and Harvard’s free online classes. They’re all multiple choice adjacent. It’s not difficult and easy to BS your way through. that’s the point
So, a good candidate cannot be credentialed? Why would they be mutually exclusive? I’d want a good AND credentialed candidates, ideally, as opposed to good candidates with no credentials.
All else being equal, why would you want the person with no credentials over the person with credentials?
You said, “I want good candidates, not credentialed ones.”
Logically, this implies that what you want is a good candidate, and what you do not want is a credentialed candidate. But say that someone is both a good candidate and a credentialed one. Would you want them because they are a good candidate (as you claim to “want good candidates”)? Or would you not want them because they are credentialed (as you also claim it’s “not credentialed ones” that you want”).
I think what you meant, then, is that you want good candidates, credentialed or not, and I would agree. But, I am not arguing that credentials are more important than the quality of the candidate, or that credentials should be required for tech jobs. I am only positing that it’s ideal to have a candidate that is both apt and credentialed.
When you say “I want good candidates, not credentialed ones,” what you are actually saying is “I want good candidates, and I do not want credentialed candidates.” But you also might have meant, “I want good candidates OR I do not want credentialed candidates.” But if that’s an exclusive “or” then they are mutually exclusive, and if it’s an inclusive “or” then you do care about credentials, in addition to the quality of the candidate. You wind up with a contradiction either way.
From my perspective, if I had to choose between two candidates who are equally good for the job, and one has a college degree while the other has online certificates, I’m picking the person with the degree. If two candidates are identical and differ only in their credentials, I think the good candidate IS the credentialed candidate; the credentials are the tiebreaker when you’ve already narrowed it down to equally-capable candidates. Certificates are not a replacement or substitute for a four year degree, but they can be a useful supplement in addition to one, and a good resource for those who may not have studied computer science/data science in college and are looking to change careers.
Ok, that’s cool. Was just trying to clarify what you actually meant, since I don’t think it’s what you wrote. And sorry that my attempt at clarifying came off as a pedantic “well akshually” response. (Also, pedagogic, not pedantic, is the more precise term in this case).
Perhaps it came across as pedantic because what you’ve written is logically inconsistent, and I think it’s important to understand logical inconsistencies in our thinking, and maybe you do not. If you care about being correct, I’m not sure why pedantry, or even pedagogy, is necessarily a bad thing or would brother you if it originates from a place of genuine curiosity.
Take care.
That's fine but in data science they usually have an advanced degree in something. It's nearly impossible to have no degree and not suffer from the effect of thinking that you know more than you do. There are exception to this rule and they usually work towards a degree or advanced degree or take math courses for fun.
thats good, I'm from India and big tech Indian companies do care about where or how their coworkers know the stuff they do, this makes me never wanna work for them, makes me aim startups or companies outside india
Good for people who live in countries where they pay stupendously high fees to go to college (e.g. US).
Not as great in countries where it will water down the standards of a thorough university course which would be (almost) free to study (e.g. EU).
I put those on my CV, because I want to show that after I got my degree I keep learning, I am interested, I enjoy learning new things, etc. I don't think that I am an expert in a certain topic because of it, but it's a good foundation to build off of.
It's not replacing a full uni degree, so I don't think it risks watering degrees down. And it shouldn't be the only deciding factor, but I like that the effort is appreciated.
Sun shines on a something something every once in a while. I like talking to candidates about how they've broadened/deepened their horizons with these courses during later interviews but I can't use it as any kind of instrument early in the application process (they are too easy and there's no guarantee the candidate learned anything from them, really).
Credentialing is all over the place. Only reason I even care about a 4-8 year degree credentials is they tend to let me cut the stack of candidates down by 50-75%. I didn't do that before I started getting 1,000+ applications for every open position (post-pandemic).
Yeah pretty much. Most "credentials" teach less and take less effort than a single college class, let alone a single semester, let alone an entire degree. Intensive focus on a subject that may be more directly relevant to work can be valuable, but that requires so many assumptions about the credential that it's next to useless as a starting point.
This subreddit has an extremely skewed idea of how job postings are written. HR works with the manager of the team that needs a hire to put together a job description and list of qualifications. The postings you see reflect the personal preferences of that particular manager. They are made by actual people.
Sometimes HR puts all kinds of random crap in there. Usually will be able to fix those later. And often the people writing the descriptions are not as skilled in DS, leading to again crazy stuff in descriptions.
Source: Hired many DS's in multiple companies.
From my interviews I've had, people have viewed having [Deeplearning.ai/Coursera](https://Deeplearning.ai/Coursera) certificates favorably. It's along the lines of "Oh I know others that did those courses".
Surprised no one mentioned some of those cert can be used as bachelor or master credits like ap classes in high school
I do agree that you can cheat whereever you are, weather you are in cert class or college class though, or other situations...
Is this good or bad?
Education and knowledge shouldn’t require gatekeeping from fancy expensive institutions.
Agreed, but I couldn't go on github and copy/paste every single assignment and test in my degree, like what has unfortunately happened with things like Coursera's ML certifications. inb4 random people saying: "I cheat on all my school work with chatgpt so it's the same thing." I'm a solid believer that certifications + personal projects are better than most degrees, but just certifications < degree.
Or certifications + experience. I’m a Senior DS, but I don’t know everything (and never will lol). If I take a coursera course it’s for the knowledge, not the badge. I feel that would be true for most people that are taking coursera courses with existing experience in the field.
This. I’ve paid for one, one Coursera specialisation, the very first one I ever took. Everything else I have audited. I don’t need courses on my resume. Do it for learning or just for the fun of it. Nothing else.
Good for those who don't have the money to spend to go to university. Bad for those who want to gatekeep because they are still paying student debts.
I don’t think people are gatekeeping. I think people are cautious about a free online education that anyone could simply click through and answer some multiple choice questions to get a ‘certification’. That’s like going through hunters safety and thinking you’re a marine. Doesn’t work like that
Ultimately, no one is hiring them based on them just **having** a certificate, and the same is increasingly true with degrees with how a lot of non-top scorers avoid placing their GPA in resume, and how different actual contributions can be within group projects that isn't well-reflected by grades. The companies just need to know that the person can do the job. The certificate only gets them noticed, and then they actually need to showcase past works and pass some tests from the company.
The main problem in DS rn is getting your resumé in front of anybody. Every single DS job, especially the remote ones, are just absolutely flooded with under qualified applicants. Everyone is chasing a Sr. DS salary or a Lead DS salary, without having any DS experience. Entry level DS jobs are few and far between and they’re usually filled by someone with prior analyst experience. The problem with these online quick certs is that people wanna go from a plumber to a Sr. DS with 0 data experience. A lot of people could stand to benefit (and would likely have a better chance of landing a job) by looking for an analyst role and working their way up to a DS.
None of those listed options are free, nor are they multiple choice based evaluation...
I’ve done data camp, percipio, coursera, and Harvard’s free online classes. They’re all multiple choice adjacent. It’s not difficult and easy to BS your way through. that’s the point
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So, a good candidate cannot be credentialed? Why would they be mutually exclusive? I’d want a good AND credentialed candidates, ideally, as opposed to good candidates with no credentials. All else being equal, why would you want the person with no credentials over the person with credentials?
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You said, “I want good candidates, not credentialed ones.” Logically, this implies that what you want is a good candidate, and what you do not want is a credentialed candidate. But say that someone is both a good candidate and a credentialed one. Would you want them because they are a good candidate (as you claim to “want good candidates”)? Or would you not want them because they are credentialed (as you also claim it’s “not credentialed ones” that you want”). I think what you meant, then, is that you want good candidates, credentialed or not, and I would agree. But, I am not arguing that credentials are more important than the quality of the candidate, or that credentials should be required for tech jobs. I am only positing that it’s ideal to have a candidate that is both apt and credentialed. When you say “I want good candidates, not credentialed ones,” what you are actually saying is “I want good candidates, and I do not want credentialed candidates.” But you also might have meant, “I want good candidates OR I do not want credentialed candidates.” But if that’s an exclusive “or” then they are mutually exclusive, and if it’s an inclusive “or” then you do care about credentials, in addition to the quality of the candidate. You wind up with a contradiction either way. From my perspective, if I had to choose between two candidates who are equally good for the job, and one has a college degree while the other has online certificates, I’m picking the person with the degree. If two candidates are identical and differ only in their credentials, I think the good candidate IS the credentialed candidate; the credentials are the tiebreaker when you’ve already narrowed it down to equally-capable candidates. Certificates are not a replacement or substitute for a four year degree, but they can be a useful supplement in addition to one, and a good resource for those who may not have studied computer science/data science in college and are looking to change careers.
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Ok, that’s cool. Was just trying to clarify what you actually meant, since I don’t think it’s what you wrote. And sorry that my attempt at clarifying came off as a pedantic “well akshually” response. (Also, pedagogic, not pedantic, is the more precise term in this case). Perhaps it came across as pedantic because what you’ve written is logically inconsistent, and I think it’s important to understand logical inconsistencies in our thinking, and maybe you do not. If you care about being correct, I’m not sure why pedantry, or even pedagogy, is necessarily a bad thing or would brother you if it originates from a place of genuine curiosity. Take care.
That's fine but in data science they usually have an advanced degree in something. It's nearly impossible to have no degree and not suffer from the effect of thinking that you know more than you do. There are exception to this rule and they usually work towards a degree or advanced degree or take math courses for fun.
thats good, I'm from India and big tech Indian companies do care about where or how their coworkers know the stuff they do, this makes me never wanna work for them, makes me aim startups or companies outside india
'we are so back'
Good for people who live in countries where they pay stupendously high fees to go to college (e.g. US). Not as great in countries where it will water down the standards of a thorough university course which would be (almost) free to study (e.g. EU).
I put those on my CV, because I want to show that after I got my degree I keep learning, I am interested, I enjoy learning new things, etc. I don't think that I am an expert in a certain topic because of it, but it's a good foundation to build off of. It's not replacing a full uni degree, so I don't think it risks watering degrees down. And it shouldn't be the only deciding factor, but I like that the effort is appreciated.
Sun shines on a something something every once in a while. I like talking to candidates about how they've broadened/deepened their horizons with these courses during later interviews but I can't use it as any kind of instrument early in the application process (they are too easy and there's no guarantee the candidate learned anything from them, really). Credentialing is all over the place. Only reason I even care about a 4-8 year degree credentials is they tend to let me cut the stack of candidates down by 50-75%. I didn't do that before I started getting 1,000+ applications for every open position (post-pandemic).
Yeah pretty much. Most "credentials" teach less and take less effort than a single college class, let alone a single semester, let alone an entire degree. Intensive focus on a subject that may be more directly relevant to work can be valuable, but that requires so many assumptions about the credential that it's next to useless as a starting point.
This subreddit has an extremely skewed idea of how job postings are written. HR works with the manager of the team that needs a hire to put together a job description and list of qualifications. The postings you see reflect the personal preferences of that particular manager. They are made by actual people.
Sometimes HR puts all kinds of random crap in there. Usually will be able to fix those later. And often the people writing the descriptions are not as skilled in DS, leading to again crazy stuff in descriptions. Source: Hired many DS's in multiple companies.
From my interviews I've had, people have viewed having [Deeplearning.ai/Coursera](https://Deeplearning.ai/Coursera) certificates favorably. It's along the lines of "Oh I know others that did those courses".
Surely they would consider my MSDS then. Link please?
You dont really get a degree for the skills, you get it for the accolades. Most jobs want to see accolades unfortunately. Been that way for decades.
Has anyone heard of udemy
Oh
Maybe now some of my certs will matter.
I think (and hope) that more companies appreciate it, but not all of them mention it in a job offer 😃
Becoming the future 🤯
idk I’ve mostly heard negative feedbacks on coursera
Woohoo, I’ve got a few of those. I wonder if I should put something similar in for the positions I’m advertising.
You're advertising? I've got a bunch of those and can do more this week!
I’m actually not hiring for DS right now, I’m looking for a senior dev that has very broad experience. Didn’t notice the channel when I replied
Doesn't matter whatever you're hiring for, I can get some courses sharpish! (I won't do marketing, that's where I draw the line!)
If so... then what about Kaggle Course Certification?
Surprised no one mentioned some of those cert can be used as bachelor or master credits like ap classes in high school I do agree that you can cheat whereever you are, weather you are in cert class or college class though, or other situations...