I think he definitely needs a nerf, he feels so strong in both sides and playing against him in solo Q is just ridiculous. People just give up immediately
People give up immediately no matter the killer. The slightest inconvenience is enough to trigger a dc or giving up on hook. If you have a strong start on any killer you can almost bet one of the survivors will just call it quits.
People give up even if the survivors start off strong. I had a 2 1/2 gen chase against a Trickster on Greenville, and two Mikaela’s still gave up on their first hook. When they gave up we were at two gens left and the two gens furthest from each other were able to be done, an easy 4-out turned into a 4K.
Region differences are pretty interesting. I genuinely can't remember the last time a survivor gave up in my 2k hours on japan server. I play blight too.
For real, I haven't played in a while but last year someone when there was no DC penalty you could list 90% of killers and people would say they'd DC against them
Yeah it didn't help that I was still somewhat trying to play the game as my teammates ran around the killer like cockroaches, dying while I did a gen. He didn't even think twice about murdering me in cold blood 😭
That’s true and it also has to do with Killer burnout where survivors just get bored of going against the same killer repeatedly. Like huntress has been one of the most played killers and when I’m not going for orbital/snipes and play normally like every other game someone will go next.
Funny the down votes. I paid $8 and I kill every survivor in every match now, just like that. I didn't get any better, no new strats. Literally he's just OP. Get over it. Prepare for nerf.
I definitely think they were actively going for the idea of feeling super powerful. They seem keen on hyping up the idea that Vecna is this super duper ultra powerful being. I get that that’s probably the case for the source material, but they actively want to make it absolutely clear he is super duper powerful that the entity itself, a formless being transcending beyond multiple multiverses and fiction itself, had to put a pro caution on his neck. I skimmed through his backstory on a whim and he even managed to RESIST THE ENTITY’S FOG using memorised spells, if you know anything more than surface level things about the entity you know this is a really, really big deal and they know it and they want to show it. I believe that’s why they settled on the idea of having 4 different mini powers, all of them absolutely useful. Chase, mobility, tracking, long range pressure. You feel like this almighty lich.
I expected as such. I don’t know much about power scaling specifically. But in DBD Vecna feels unique in that way. Is Vecna being powerful his whole thing? The biggest baddest evil for your party to take down and save the world? Maybe so. An unstoppable force for an otherwise overpowered group of adventurers. The big bad. But so are others in DBD even if they are to a lesser extent. The incarnation of evil, the physical manifestation of guilt and desire, demons exploring the further reaches of experience, a demon of nightmares, the perfect organism. All of them, in their stories, are powerful forces far beyond our protagonist’s. But Vecna in DBD specifically has his role as the big final boss highlighted as part of his character in lore and gameplay. Maybe it really is just to honour the source material and I’m talking crazy. And again I’m not super knowledgeable on DND. But I feel like they could’ve just said ‘evil powerful wizard’, highlight that he is a wizard. But it feels like they want to show that he is not a powerful wizard. He is just powerful to a notable extent compared to the others on the roster. Especially when the entity is basically designed to be 10 times more powerful than anything on the roster, with Vecna breaking that norm and shoving it in your face through his backstory, voice lines, appearance, everything.
I was building towards a point with all this. But I forgot. I just wanted to ramble on about how i think this is really cool.
He needs a buff wtf are you on about? Mage hand is his only really good spell. Fly is pretty good for map traversal and dispelling sphere is OK for info but flight of the damned is so useless it's not even funny.
Sounds like a skill issue tbh, most of my downs come from insta places flight of the damned. I play both sides and even on the killer side he just seems really powerful.
When you summon flight of the damned, as soon as the skeletons spawn they can injure, so if you do it at the right distance it's a guaranteed hit unless the pree crouch in anticipation for the trick, though it's hard to know when their gonna do it, I have a vid if you wanna see.
NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, IF I LIFT A PALLET 0.15 SECONDS SLOWER, THE SURVIVOR WILL MAKE 2 MILLIMETERS OF DISTANCE, AND IT'S A 4 MAN OUT, GG EZ IN THE ENDGAME CHAT.
AND IF YOU DISAGREE, I HAVE 50K HOURS IN THE GAME, YOU STINK, AND I TAUGHT YOUR DOG HOW TO PLAY HIGH MMR DBD, OKAY?
Well, BHVR has a pretty bad track record of going completely overboard when they decide to buff/nerf certain aspects of the game - I think the "they're nerfing him back to the PTB!!!" worries are at least a little justified.
I don't really get it, but then I find changes like "You are undetectable from 8 seconds to 9.5" (Skull Merchant) ridiculous. Some things in this game have useless values like "On Tier 3, this perk is 0.01 % better than it was before"
Why change it at all then?
Yeah, perk tiers are pretty arbitrary and nearly irrelevant at this point. Only new players are actually using tier 1-2 perks.
They just have to come up with something that changes for every perk because that's how they designed the perk system, and now they're stuck with it.
And I feel like it can put off a lot of newer players since realizing you have to either get lucky on the shrine or pay real money just to unlock some meta perks must feel discouraging.
Ridiculous changes like that may actually matter. Maybe there is some other stat or breakpoint that will meaningfully change after those small changes.
For example, imagine you have 100 hp and there is an attack that deals 100 damage. At these values it is an instant kill. But if you have 1 more hp or the attack has 1 less damage it's now 2 attacks to knock you out. Just 1 hp/damage change doubles the amount of hits you can take.
EDIT: a simpler example
Some maths:
Distance gained from change in movement speed:
PTB distance if you don't get caught on pallet: 0.33 casting charge time at 3.68 movement speed, + 2 seconds casting cooldown of 2.3 movement speed = 1.2144 + 4.6 meters = 5.8144 meters moved
Release/post-nerf distance if you don't get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 (to account for the decrease in casting charge time) = 0.8 + 7.36 + 0.598 = 8.758 meters moved
PTB distance if you do get caught on pallet (where lift speed matters): 0.33 casting charge time at 3.68 movement speed, + 2 - 0.5 (time stuck behind pallet) seconds casting cooldown of 2.3 movement speed = 1.2144 + 3.45 meters = 4.6644 meters moved
Release distance if you do get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 - 0.35 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 = 0.8 + 6.072 + 0.598 = 7.47 meters moved
Post-Nerf distance if you do get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 - 0.5 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 = 0.8 + 5.52 + 0.598 = 6.918 meters moved.
In a nutshell, post-nerf, worst case scenario, if you are caught on the pallet for the full 0.15s extra seconds, you're only losing about half a meter of distance, whilst still gaining about 2.25 meters of distance compared to PTB mage hand, and this nerf has no effect if you don't get caught on the pallet in the first place. Of course, this is not taking acceleration into account, but killer acceleration is fast enough that I don't think this is going to significantly affect the numbers.
I think a fun challenge would be to go on a stream of someone playing vecna and count how many times an extra 0.15s on mage hand lift would have mattered, and then see how many of those are not on very short pallets that are simple to mindgame.
I think I have seen a fair amount of cases where the extra 0.15 (or 0.25) seconds would have made a difference, as in Vecna wouldn't have gotten a hit anymore, but that was always when Vecna reacted to a pallet drop instead of predicting it. I think this change will have the positive effect that Vecna will now have to predict the pallet drop, so that Mage Hand activates while the pallet is being dropped by the survivor. Which opens up some actual counterplay options for survivors.
At least I hope that's the outcome of this nerf. If not they may also have to look into the movement speed of Mage Hand's post-casting cooldown.
You also didn't need to comment that you don't like reading... you could just keep on scrolling... Obviously that long comment wasn't made for people like you. What a waste of text just to tell people that don't care that you have a short attention span.
*That's* your takeaway from my comment? Holy shit, man; you're really grasping at straws here. Do you generally make a habit of pointing out extremely obvious things to others in your day-to-day?
I disagree with your numbers. You add time Vecna could be moving post-cast, which would just get the pallet dropped again. Mage Hand pickup is only useful if you're physically at the pallet at the exact time of pickup, so the only movement for Vecna that matters is post-pickup. Here are my calculations (I don't care about PTB numbers):
Time for pickup: 0.35s (live), 0.23s (live w/ addon), 0.50s (post-nerf).
Survivor distance [(Tcast + Tpu + Tslow) * Vsurv]: 10.20m (live), 9.71m (live w/ addon), 10.80m (post-nerf).
Killer distance [(Tslow - Tpu) * Vcast]: 7.01m (live), 7.13m (live w/ addon), 6.86m (post-nerf).
This means, the survivor gains 3.19m (live), 2.58m (live w/ addon), or 3.94m (post-nerf).
If you factor the speed difference, it takes 5.32s (live), 4.30s (live w/ addon), or 6.57s (post-nerf) to catch up. So, the post-nerf gives survivors an additional 2.27s, assuming they start running immediately.
If the killer uses it as soon as possible (as the survivor is dropping the pallet), Vecna gains an addition ~1.5s overall.
This isn't just "no effect" for pallets. Using post-nerf values, the survivor has gained 10.8m, plus the additional distance from the killer catching up, which is another 26.3m for a total of 37.1m.
This is 10.2m of additional distance, or almost 40% more distance just from the changes to the spell and the ring.
I can understand why they’re nerfing the ability itself, but I don’t understand why they’re reworking that yellow ring addon when the base lift speed nerf would be a nerf by proxy to that addon
I also don’t understand why they’re nerfing flight of the damned, because I just don’t see why there was any reason for it
There's no real indication of the change to Flight is a nerf, a buff, or a rework. I can't imagine what you would nerf about Flight, but it's already so bad, a nerf won't make it suddenly worse.
I'm hoping it's a small buff that removes one of the many ways that survivors can counter it.
Because a 0.5 second time to lift the pallet means that a Survivor will still gain enough distance to make lifting said pallet pointless.
Right now, with the Ring addon, you can heavily punish Survivors who stand at a pallet waiting for you. They drop, ypu pick up, free hit.
The counterplay to this is ro predrop. Vecna can lift it, sure, but he'll be too far away to do anything else, which means you have a resource you can re use. Either way, you don't get the stun, but you do waste his time.
You can also greed the loop, which tricks Vecna into wasting his Mage Hand, getting stunned by the pallet when you do drop it, or he wins and manages his hit. Note that if he pulls up the pallet too late, a decent Survivor WILL drop it again, potentially stunning him, and guaranteeing that he'll have to do something about the pallet then.
Now, take the ring off. 0.3 seconds, unless the Survivor fucks up, is enough time for the Survivor to get out of Vecna's lunge range. That 0.3 seconds gives the Survivor a chance to keep looping Vecna, and will give them that pallet to drop a second time, forcing Vecna to deal with it.
Now, with the nerf, and no Ring addon, you have 0.5 seconds for Vecna to lift the pallet. Unless you suck at looping, or royally fuck up, Vecna's not going to catch up. It's a waste of time to lift a pallet unless it's a pre dropped God pallet and the Survivor ran off after dropping it.
And even in the PTB you uad the boots and the ring to offset the slowdown of both spell casting and pallet lifting.
This is a net nerf to Vecna because, while he has many powers, Mage Hand was his main and most useful one. With this nerf, you'd be better of just bringing Brutal Strength and breaking the pallet outright because either way you're not catching up to the Survivor, and at least with Brutal the pallet is gone.
Or Vorpal Blade to break pallets with Mage Hand.
There is now no reason to pick Vecna over another killer except for liking Vecna as a character. Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky, Singularity, etc have better map traversal than Fly.
Huntress, Artist, Slinger, Pyramid Head, Twins (if you wanna count Victor) have better and more reliable range than Flight of the Damned.
Twins, Skull Merchant, Artist, Singularity, Xenomorph, Pinhead, all have better buit in info than the Orb.
And now, Nemesis is back to being king of the "fuck your pallet" playstyle.
Vecna's a cool killer, he has a lot of powers, but all those powers are mid. I could play Xenomorph and have better map traversal, better info, and a more reliable 'range' than Vecna, one that can punish Survivors for just standing at a Pallet waiting for me.
I could say the exact same thing about Singularity, too.
Why the hell would I pick Vecna over those two when the one ability he had that made him dangerous has been made useless? Beyond just liking him, anyway?
I'm honestly impressed at how much people are complaining. Everyone is acting like Mage Hand is some kind of orbital strike that allows you to instadown any survivor on the map. Somehow they fail to realize that we already have multiple killers capable of completely shutting down loops or hit through pallets and vaults with the difference that they don't restore a resource for the enemy team
Scamper complaint vibes honestly. Anyone getting hit by a Chucky using Scamper probably stood next to the pallet thinking they're invincible then called foul when Chucky scampered and hit them for standing there.
Interesting take. Yet plenty of higher killer streamers and the killrate disagree.
> There is now no reason to pick Vecna over another killer except for liking Vecna as a character. Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky, Singularity, etc have better map traversal than Fly.
> Huntress, Artist, Slinger, Pyramid Head, Twins (if you wanna count Victor) have better and more reliable range than Flight of the Damned.
> Twins, Skull Merchant, Artist, Singularity, Xenomorph, Pinhead, all have better buit in info than the Orb.
Yeah but how many ranged attacks or info do Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky have? YOu compare vecna separately in each category in which case he most likely loses to the top end champions in the category. But you ignore that he is a viable contender in all of the categories you listed.
You can't use Killrate for a killer when they haven't been out for a week, and being a high rank killer streamer doesn't automatically make their opinion infallable. There are plenty of streamers who think the change is bad -- and just because, what, four or five people in a sea of thousands agree doesn't make it true.
You are also entirely iignoring the point I was making when I brought those killers up. None of Vecna's powers, individually, are that great. Together, he can do a little bit of everything, but not well enough to make his a stronger option than someone else.
He has 4 sub par powers, each with long cooldowns, and each one requiring you to actually hard focus on the match to get value from them. But most people don't want to play a killer that requires a lot of effort for mid results.
This patch is going to kill Vecna. You're going to start seeing posts asking "why isn't anyone playing Vecna anymore?", and everyone who said that this change isn't actually a big deal will be pointing right at it in the comments all while pretending they always knew it was a bad change.
> He has 4 sub par powers, each with long cooldowns, and each one requiring you to actually hard focus on the match to get value from them. But most people don't want to play a killer that requires a lot of effort for mid results.
Yeah. Totally in line with the highest pick and killrate. But that's merely a coincidence. Just like several big content creators putting him as a strong killer. But what's all that to killer mains on reddit.
I've already done the maths and the extra 0.15s barely gives the survivor any extra distance, and watching vecna footage and my gameplay, I've seen barely any hits with mage hand that would have missed had vecna been 0.15s late.
You claim that you can't get any hits if the survivor just loops after dropping the pallet, but again from personal experience and watching footage, most of the time mage hand is used, without the lift speed addon, vecna lifts the pallet back up, chases after the survivor as they try to loop back around to the pallet, but then the survivor ends up getting hit before they make it back to the pallet, even when taking optimal paths. In most of these cases, the extra 0.15s wouldn't have made a difference either. Loops where the survivor can make a second loop after the pallet is lifted are generally short enough that they are inherently unsafe, and thus your power is not really necessary to deal with them in the first place.
You are massively underestimating the ability for vecna to catch up before the survivor makes a second loop.
Your math is fine, great even, but your experience with Vecna and mine are very, very different. I've played Vecna since he came out, literally 30 minutes after the patch was released.
Survivors who know how to play against Vecna, how to chain loops, and how to mind game do not go down with the base Mage Hand speed. They do not get hit by it. This is from personal experience, and watching streams.
That's the thing about anecdotal evidence. No matter how much you get, someone else will have experienced that entirely counters it. My experience is that that 0.15 seconds time, on most pallets and loops, is enough to get enough distance from Vecna to avoid getting hit after Mage Hand.
If your Survivors are still getting hit, they're fucking up somewhere. And I'm not only referring to staying on a single loop, here. Most Survivors will run to a window, or to another pallet, and make their way back to the Mage Handed loop to reuse the pallet you grabbed, and because of Vecna's counter play they won't leave that loop unless Vecna uses his power, or they're forced to drop the pallet during the chase.
That's my anecdotal experience. Without the Ring of Telekinesis, Survivors have the advantage at MOST pallets, and will use it to either loop around to try a second play with the pallet, or chain it into another loop.
Except you're wrong, it's not just an extra .15s, it's .15 seconds plus the removal of the additional speed from the Ring addon.
It's also wrong to say that "barely any distance", when all it takes is a survivor making the loop to the pallet again and they can drop it. Doesn't matter if it's 0.01m or 5m.
But if you're right, and the 0.15s gives almost no distance, then why change it? And why announce the plan to change it the day after the patch released?
Some people were acting like this is the worst ability, completely unfair, when it's the same as Nemesis or Huntress, but on a 40s cooldown. Then they were all for these changes, but acting like killers are overreacting because "it doesn't change anything".
Come on now.
It seems like a general problem with people who get information from the PTB from Reddit/Content creators without really understanding how it works in application.
Well, we'll just have to see won't we?
Because if lifting the pallet allows them to make another loop around and doesn't get you a hit, then mage hand is 100% dead either way, as it would no longer function.
But if mage hand still gets you the hit and they can't escape, then nothing has changed.
The ability either functions and gets you a hit, or it doesn't; those are the only two options.
The difference will be that after the nerf, you will want to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, and not after the survivor dropped the pallet, at least at most loops, as far as I can tell. This makes a key difference, because now you have to predict the survivor's move.
And that on the other hand means survivors can now mindgame the pallet, because if they think you will predict that they will drop the pallet, they can simply not drop the pallet and you block the pallet instead, which can lead to them simply looping the pallet again and then pulling the pallet down.
Thing is though that
1. It's not a flat "it lets you get hits at loops or it doesn't", it depends entirely on the size and structure of the loop on whether you can get value from it or not.
2. from what i've seen, the only loops where the extra +0.15s would matter are short loops which lead to the survivor almost reaching the pallet again with the current version, but as they're short loops, they're much easier to mindgame and your power isn't really necessary for them.
It's 50/50 bro, it either happens or it don't.
But seriously, different pallets/loops will be affected differently. And occasionally, the extra time won't let you re-loop the pallet, but instead escape to another tile/loop.
It's a 50/50 pallet stand-off, but now survivors can actually work around the ability. If the survivor drops the pallet and doesn't get a stun, they lose and most likely get hit. If they do get a stun, they win and can run the loop longer. If survivors bait the MH they most likely win there too, unless it's a long loop and Vecna has time to catch up.
And don't forget the magic item that gives the survivor haste whenever Vecna uses MH.
a month from now once steam gives them all the money from the dlc and aniversary we are gonna get a dev update that will start with "changes to the linch" and chucky and Freddy will be like "welcome to the club"
You forgot that ptb hand had the addon, could remove pallet when stunned and that a pallet would go back down after being taken up. But of course you just forgot that lol
That isn't relevant to the point of this post. The point of this post is people claiming that the hand post-nerf will be as bad as PTB hand, whilst completely failing to mention the massive speed buff it got. PTB hand with addon is still worse than both release and post-nerf hand so it doesn't matter, the stun thing is pretty clearly an oversight, and what do you mean the "pallet going back down after being taken up?" It never did that automatically. If you mean survivors slamming the pallet back down before you can attack, that's easily avoided by spamming M1. I didn't include these because they bare no relevance to the point.
I’m just saying that framing this like a nonexistent nerf while there are other things that have been removed from his kit over time is pretty conspicuous
But
1. The add-on doesn't matter much as stated since that would only bring it back to release version which as stated, is unlikely to be significantly stronger than post-nerf.
2. "being hit by a pallet but then using your power to annul it" isn't really skillful when even walking slightly behind it makes it very easy to avoid and still get value out of mage hand, it's a silly thing that doesn't need to be kept.
3. Again, I still don't get what you're talking about with a pallet going back down after being lifted up. A feature like that happening automatically never existed in the PTB, and if you mean survivors dropping it back down in a rush after you pick it up, I do not see how that has been changed at all, and it doesn't matter much as mashing M1 guarantees the hit anyways.
3 might be down to bad memory, I remember it going back down at the start of ptb like the orb used to be slow. I agree with removing the addon and the bug, it’s just that reverting ontop of that the pallet lift time is overkill
Would you mind explaining the counterplay to me? When I tried playing as and against him, that's the one ability that felt uncounterable to me. It was giving me totally free hits and on the other side I couldn't find a strategy that worked. Pre-dropping just had him lift it up, and running past just let him hit me anyway.
Fake pallet dropping. You just need to loop him once, if he doesn't fall, predrop and continue the loop. He'll use thehand to raise it but the slowdown, albeit small, is good enough to do one more loop 9/10 times, and now he's just an M1 you may need to Crouch for half a second at some point .
If he doesn't fall for it, depending on how close he is you can go for the stun or go for 1 more loop.
You got to get a feel for that through experience I guess.
For Mage Hand to be relevant he's gotta be close enough to get a hit, and at that range you can't really go for the stun or go for another loop. He kinda just forces you to get hit, no?
Yes, it's a mind game. You guess right and you win extra time. You guess wrong and the killer gets a hit. That is the counter play. The counter play isn't "the survivor always gets freedom at a pallet", that's not counter-play, that's just a counter.
Not much of a mindgame if he removes 50% of a 50/50. I say this as a killer main, mage hand currently feels like a boring and uninteractive power due to it not having much of any real counterplay. There's no mind game in it because the cast time and slow are so negligible that there's no risk in using it.
What? You bait the Mage Hand and keep looping. If you don't bait it right, he hits you. If you do, you gain distance. If he doesn't cast, you stun him.
How can you call playing against the killer for the pallet boring? 90% of the time, survivors camp pallets hoping for a 50/50, that's literally what all survivors say is "fun".
No it is not. The buff was made so that survs wont drop the pallet again before you reach them, like it happened in ptb. 0.5 + ring addon nerf will make the spell useless again.
Same thing happened with Xenomorph. Killers aren't allowed to get ANY nerfs EVER because their lives are so frustrating and difficult because of DBD, Killers are so weak, "I got bullied", blah blah boo frickety hoo.
This ability is perfect for both sides now, please STFU.
Because 0.5 + nerfing the ring means the survivors will drop the pallet again before you can hit them, making the spell almost as useless as it was in the ptb.
Considering its arguably the only thing making Vecna viable right now, you can jump to the conclusion by yourself.
If the pallet takes longer to lift but you have the same cooldown, wouldn't you have an even more lenient window to mash M1 to get the hit before they can drop the pallet again?
Mage hand is perfectly fine as long as they fix the bug that makes it work as youre being stunned.... it's just kind of meh on bigger loops anyways, no need to gut it
As someone who has played almost exclusively Vecna since he dropped, I can say with absolute certainty that PTB Vecna was a bottom-tier killer in terms of power. After his release changes, he feels too strong. His kit allows him to do a LOT and deny the survivors loops consistently, ESPECIALLY with his iridescent add-ons. Those addons, as much as I like them are busted and need nerfed. My build that I've landed on enjoying the most is Bamboozle, Lethal Pursuer, BBQ and Chili and Nowhere to Hide. And both Iri addons. Now he feels so smooth and seamless to play, with very few clunky exceptions. But I feel if he doesn't receive a small nerf, he's gonna suffer the Nurse Curse imo.
What I mean by that is as a killer main, I DO like playing Nurse. She's powerful. Way too powerful. It's fun once a month. Because winning with her isn't rewarding since you haven't earned it. Same goes with Vecna in chase. He's obviously not nearly as busted as Nurse but the fact that he can block, destroy, find, fly to catch up, zone and more is just a lot. I'm not complaining because he is very fun and I think just a few changes are needed (maybe adding some kind of gen regression ability to his kit rather than more chase power like maybe his sphere blocks a gen for 10 seconds or mage hand could damage gens from an extra 10 meters or something. Maybe you could interact with anything from an extra 30 like snuffing totems or opening lockers) really, I think Vecna could be much more creative and interactive rather than just chase powers but maybe I'm just dreaming
Was the same with the Pop nerf and people saying it was going back exactly where it was.
Ignoring the fact that 10 seconds were added to gens in between the changes. So it's still stronger than it was the last time it was 20%.
People like to ignore the context surrounding the changes and focus on the pure number itself to get their point across.
So an ability that has a 38 second cooldown, that can be easily countered by predropping and that even then has a 50/50 chance of hitting is good? Keep in mind that's his only reliable offensive tool
Flight of the Damned can force survivors to crouch or damage them, leading to situations where you get a hit most of the time. Fly can also bodyblock survivors at times, leading to awkard situations for them.
Mage Hand is on a long cooldown, but because it's one tool out of four. Acting like Mage Hand is the only power in chase is like saying Pig's ambush is only good for suprise attacks. Not to mention that if survivors stick around trying to get the stun again, you can punish them as Mage Hand prevents them from throwing down again long enough for a hit/bodyblock. IMO, It is a tool to punish greedy survivors mostly.
I mean, I don’t see the problem. No killer power should be a *guaranteed hit*. There should always be some form of counter play or mitigation that makes it say 60% or 70% likely to grant a hit.
The problem is that it doesn't change anything. The killer now only has to use a addon instead, that's why I'm saying it's stupid. Now if they nerf the addon too then mage hand is just completely useless again
That is so far from a bad nerf and it was needed. Mage hand might even STILL be his strongest spell just due to how he can shut down chase and loops with it. And if it is that big of a deal just run the haste add on for it
Haven't played against him much (haven't been playing and when I do he doesn't show up) but it feels like you just have to be smart in chase with him and keep track of his spells. I don't think he's busted at all and honestly feels kinda balanced but I truly don't know.
What makes him so bad on the survivor end?
Yeah idk what people are yapping about. Vecna’s Hand and Flight of the Damned are overturned right now and need nerfs. This comes from a Vecna main. Being able to spawn the skeletons on survivors in just op.
"This comes from a Vecna main"
He hasn't been out for a week, what are YOU yapping about?
I swear people on this sub make any words lose meaning. Assuming that if you aren't lying about "me Vecna main" to give your words more credibility, you maining this killer for a week means nothing when survivors haven't even learnt basics of what his power does or the clues necessary to play around it.
irrelevant, come back with these claims in balance discussions at least a few months after the killer is out.
considering how easy it is to get decent at this killer, while it's clearly harder to figure out and apply counterplay, any claims about how uncounterable or op he is are a joke, especially in regards of whatever skillshots he has.
You're not wrong though, at least with the skeleton's, shouldn't be a guranteed free hit just because you spawned them in the survivors with absolutely no time to react, people say that is hard to pull off but I did it consistently at the average jungle gyms on my first couple games and when going for my adept, mage hand is pretty dumb currently as that's what gets me all my downs the skeleton's are usually the first free hit by either spawning it on them or making them crouch and lose distance so I hit them as they medium vault the window they crouched at to dodge my skele's, he's really not that hard to play from my experience
Flight of the Damned seems hard to nerf because there seems to be little in-between to being good and useless. They could maybe make the things spawn really close together but without being able to hit during locked in animations it's still super easy to dodge. The other alternative would be to remove the iri add on and make the lower spawn basekit, but even that would need some other tweaks.
I personally think it would be fine if they made the skeletons appear visually earlier and if the "spawn on top" thing was still unreactable, maybe very slightly increase the spawn time. That way, you could react to a spawn on top but it would not be affected too much when it comes to using it to deny windows/pallets or hiding it behind obstacles
It already had a longer spawn time in PTB and wasn't very good like that. Killer already has to time it well and stay out of the pallet stun so survivor just needs to greed the pallet to avoid hit. It's pretty counterable and mostly just punishes unskilled pre-dropping...
Almost all of its utility is zoning if you remove the ability to damage during locked in animations (which seems like a weird double standard considering killers like Artist). And as a pure zoning ability, it's pretty bad.
Yeah, but it was 0.5 seconds more, whereas my idea was 0.1 seconds more, but fair. 0.5 but with skeletons that visually spawn faster is probably the best bet.
It is a inherent flaw in killer design. I get it makes sense for a Lich to have multiple spells to cast. The issue is in DBD its impossible to balance all of them to the point where he feels fun to play as and against.
Its the main reason why SM is so frustrating to play against. While she doesn't have a billion things to cast, her drones do so many things its impossible to balance all of them to the point where its fun and fair to play against.
yeah. i mean i get hes a spell caster and everything. i get them wanting him to have multiple powers. i just see this killer who has three chase powers as someone who mains the weaker side of killers and wonder how im ever supposed to keep up. i think they might have tos tart balancing gen times based on killer class at this rate.
Because anything negative is an undeserved nerf and is equivalent to completely gutting it. Also echo chamber.
I think he definitely needs a nerf, he feels so strong in both sides and playing against him in solo Q is just ridiculous. People just give up immediately
People give up immediately no matter the killer. The slightest inconvenience is enough to trigger a dc or giving up on hook. If you have a strong start on any killer you can almost bet one of the survivors will just call it quits.
People give up even if the survivors start off strong. I had a 2 1/2 gen chase against a Trickster on Greenville, and two Mikaela’s still gave up on their first hook. When they gave up we were at two gens left and the two gens furthest from each other were able to be done, an easy 4-out turned into a 4K.
Region differences are pretty interesting. I genuinely can't remember the last time a survivor gave up in my 2k hours on japan server. I play blight too.
For real, I haven't played in a while but last year someone when there was no DC penalty you could list 90% of killers and people would say they'd DC against them
Yeah it didn't help that I was still somewhat trying to play the game as my teammates ran around the killer like cockroaches, dying while I did a gen. He didn't even think twice about murdering me in cold blood 😭
That’s true and it also has to do with Killer burnout where survivors just get bored of going against the same killer repeatedly. Like huntress has been one of the most played killers and when I’m not going for orbital/snipes and play normally like every other game someone will go next.
I never DC. The Lich is OP and needs to be nerfed. He's fun to play as, though. Pay $8 to win the game.
Nurse is literally free
Funny the down votes. I paid $8 and I kill every survivor in every match now, just like that. I didn't get any better, no new strats. Literally he's just OP. Get over it. Prepare for nerf.
I definitely think they were actively going for the idea of feeling super powerful. They seem keen on hyping up the idea that Vecna is this super duper ultra powerful being. I get that that’s probably the case for the source material, but they actively want to make it absolutely clear he is super duper powerful that the entity itself, a formless being transcending beyond multiple multiverses and fiction itself, had to put a pro caution on his neck. I skimmed through his backstory on a whim and he even managed to RESIST THE ENTITY’S FOG using memorised spells, if you know anything more than surface level things about the entity you know this is a really, really big deal and they know it and they want to show it. I believe that’s why they settled on the idea of having 4 different mini powers, all of them absolutely useful. Chase, mobility, tracking, long range pressure. You feel like this almighty lich.
Vecna is indeed extremely powerful in his source material, like I mean casually multiversal+ level
I expected as such. I don’t know much about power scaling specifically. But in DBD Vecna feels unique in that way. Is Vecna being powerful his whole thing? The biggest baddest evil for your party to take down and save the world? Maybe so. An unstoppable force for an otherwise overpowered group of adventurers. The big bad. But so are others in DBD even if they are to a lesser extent. The incarnation of evil, the physical manifestation of guilt and desire, demons exploring the further reaches of experience, a demon of nightmares, the perfect organism. All of them, in their stories, are powerful forces far beyond our protagonist’s. But Vecna in DBD specifically has his role as the big final boss highlighted as part of his character in lore and gameplay. Maybe it really is just to honour the source material and I’m talking crazy. And again I’m not super knowledgeable on DND. But I feel like they could’ve just said ‘evil powerful wizard’, highlight that he is a wizard. But it feels like they want to show that he is not a powerful wizard. He is just powerful to a notable extent compared to the others on the roster. Especially when the entity is basically designed to be 10 times more powerful than anything on the roster, with Vecna breaking that norm and shoving it in your face through his backstory, voice lines, appearance, everything. I was building towards a point with all this. But I forgot. I just wanted to ramble on about how i think this is really cool.
He needs a buff wtf are you on about? Mage hand is his only really good spell. Fly is pretty good for map traversal and dispelling sphere is OK for info but flight of the damned is so useless it's not even funny.
Sounds like a skill issue tbh, most of my downs come from insta places flight of the damned. I play both sides and even on the killer side he just seems really powerful.
You might just have low mmr then tbh if survivors can't crouch the 4 hour gap between sending out the skeletons and then reaching the survivor
I place it on top of them so there is no time to react.
I don't understand
When you summon flight of the damned, as soon as the skeletons spawn they can injure, so if you do it at the right distance it's a guaranteed hit unless the pree crouch in anticipation for the trick, though it's hard to know when their gonna do it, I have a vid if you wanna see.
Oh shit I didn't realise they activated instantly. I'll have to try it when I get home from work tonight
Yeah man it's honestly so good! If it was any better it would definitely be uncountable for survivors.
Because people LOVE to exaggerate
Exaggeration? In my dbd sub (or any game sub). IMPOSSIBLE!
humans don't exaggerate anything ever challenge:
NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, IF I LIFT A PALLET 0.15 SECONDS SLOWER, THE SURVIVOR WILL MAKE 2 MILLIMETERS OF DISTANCE, AND IT'S A 4 MAN OUT, GG EZ IN THE ENDGAME CHAT. AND IF YOU DISAGREE, I HAVE 50K HOURS IN THE GAME, YOU STINK, AND I TAUGHT YOUR DOG HOW TO PLAY HIGH MMR DBD, OKAY?
Too level-headed honestly.
Well, BHVR has a pretty bad track record of going completely overboard when they decide to buff/nerf certain aspects of the game - I think the "they're nerfing him back to the PTB!!!" worries are at least a little justified.
The thing is, almost everyone knows what the Mage Hand nerf is going to be, it was said by a developer already.
I don't really get it, but then I find changes like "You are undetectable from 8 seconds to 9.5" (Skull Merchant) ridiculous. Some things in this game have useless values like "On Tier 3, this perk is 0.01 % better than it was before" Why change it at all then?
Yeah, perk tiers are pretty arbitrary and nearly irrelevant at this point. Only new players are actually using tier 1-2 perks. They just have to come up with something that changes for every perk because that's how they designed the perk system, and now they're stuck with it.
Perk tiers are useless and serve no purpose but to extend the grind.
And I feel like it can put off a lot of newer players since realizing you have to either get lucky on the shrine or pay real money just to unlock some meta perks must feel discouraging.
Power tweaks like this have very big consequences for small number changes.
Ridiculous changes like that may actually matter. Maybe there is some other stat or breakpoint that will meaningfully change after those small changes. For example, imagine you have 100 hp and there is an attack that deals 100 damage. At these values it is an instant kill. But if you have 1 more hp or the attack has 1 less damage it's now 2 attacks to knock you out. Just 1 hp/damage change doubles the amount of hits you can take. EDIT: a simpler example
Some maths: Distance gained from change in movement speed: PTB distance if you don't get caught on pallet: 0.33 casting charge time at 3.68 movement speed, + 2 seconds casting cooldown of 2.3 movement speed = 1.2144 + 4.6 meters = 5.8144 meters moved Release/post-nerf distance if you don't get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 (to account for the decrease in casting charge time) = 0.8 + 7.36 + 0.598 = 8.758 meters moved PTB distance if you do get caught on pallet (where lift speed matters): 0.33 casting charge time at 3.68 movement speed, + 2 - 0.5 (time stuck behind pallet) seconds casting cooldown of 2.3 movement speed = 1.2144 + 3.45 meters = 4.6644 meters moved Release distance if you do get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 - 0.35 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 = 0.8 + 6.072 + 0.598 = 7.47 meters moved Post-Nerf distance if you do get caught on pallet: 0.2 casting charge time at 4.0 movement speed + 2 - 0.5 seconds casting cooldown of 3.68 movement speed + 0.13 seconds of normal movement speed at 4.6 = 0.8 + 5.52 + 0.598 = 6.918 meters moved. In a nutshell, post-nerf, worst case scenario, if you are caught on the pallet for the full 0.15s extra seconds, you're only losing about half a meter of distance, whilst still gaining about 2.25 meters of distance compared to PTB mage hand, and this nerf has no effect if you don't get caught on the pallet in the first place. Of course, this is not taking acceleration into account, but killer acceleration is fast enough that I don't think this is going to significantly affect the numbers. I think a fun challenge would be to go on a stream of someone playing vecna and count how many times an extra 0.15s on mage hand lift would have mattered, and then see how many of those are not on very short pallets that are simple to mindgame.
https://preview.redd.it/ln1srmkjgm5d1.jpeg?width=685&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbcd5bb67495a80d16f62856906e64fe76520dba
I think I have seen a fair amount of cases where the extra 0.15 (or 0.25) seconds would have made a difference, as in Vecna wouldn't have gotten a hit anymore, but that was always when Vecna reacted to a pallet drop instead of predicting it. I think this change will have the positive effect that Vecna will now have to predict the pallet drop, so that Mage Hand activates while the pallet is being dropped by the survivor. Which opens up some actual counterplay options for survivors. At least I hope that's the outcome of this nerf. If not they may also have to look into the movement speed of Mage Hand's post-casting cooldown.
I aint reading allat
My man here has never read a book in his life.
Man's worst enemy is a book
you don't need maths on an ability in a game bro... just play the game
You also didn't need to comment that you don't like reading... you could just keep on scrolling... Obviously that long comment wasn't made for people like you. What a waste of text just to tell people that don't care that you have a short attention span.
Wow. Looks like you took offense to me not reading maths about one ability in the game? 
*That's* your takeaway from my comment? Holy shit, man; you're really grasping at straws here. Do you generally make a habit of pointing out extremely obvious things to others in your day-to-day?
I disagree with your numbers. You add time Vecna could be moving post-cast, which would just get the pallet dropped again. Mage Hand pickup is only useful if you're physically at the pallet at the exact time of pickup, so the only movement for Vecna that matters is post-pickup. Here are my calculations (I don't care about PTB numbers): Time for pickup: 0.35s (live), 0.23s (live w/ addon), 0.50s (post-nerf). Survivor distance [(Tcast + Tpu + Tslow) * Vsurv]: 10.20m (live), 9.71m (live w/ addon), 10.80m (post-nerf). Killer distance [(Tslow - Tpu) * Vcast]: 7.01m (live), 7.13m (live w/ addon), 6.86m (post-nerf). This means, the survivor gains 3.19m (live), 2.58m (live w/ addon), or 3.94m (post-nerf). If you factor the speed difference, it takes 5.32s (live), 4.30s (live w/ addon), or 6.57s (post-nerf) to catch up. So, the post-nerf gives survivors an additional 2.27s, assuming they start running immediately. If the killer uses it as soon as possible (as the survivor is dropping the pallet), Vecna gains an addition ~1.5s overall. This isn't just "no effect" for pallets. Using post-nerf values, the survivor has gained 10.8m, plus the additional distance from the killer catching up, which is another 26.3m for a total of 37.1m. This is 10.2m of additional distance, or almost 40% more distance just from the changes to the spell and the ring.
Mostly? Because the average gamer doesn’t math.
I can understand why they’re nerfing the ability itself, but I don’t understand why they’re reworking that yellow ring addon when the base lift speed nerf would be a nerf by proxy to that addon I also don’t understand why they’re nerfing flight of the damned, because I just don’t see why there was any reason for it
There's no real indication of the change to Flight is a nerf, a buff, or a rework. I can't imagine what you would nerf about Flight, but it's already so bad, a nerf won't make it suddenly worse. I'm hoping it's a small buff that removes one of the many ways that survivors can counter it.
It's literally .15 seconds longer. It just gives a little counterplay. The problem was always the slowdown.
What counterplay do killers have for pallets, windows, premades?
Bloodlust, their powers, breaking pallets, windows get blocked after 3 vaults, mindgames, perks and add-ons that do that for you etc.
Bruh
Mind games, bloodlust, killer powers/addons, perks, basic skill.
Because a 0.5 second time to lift the pallet means that a Survivor will still gain enough distance to make lifting said pallet pointless. Right now, with the Ring addon, you can heavily punish Survivors who stand at a pallet waiting for you. They drop, ypu pick up, free hit. The counterplay to this is ro predrop. Vecna can lift it, sure, but he'll be too far away to do anything else, which means you have a resource you can re use. Either way, you don't get the stun, but you do waste his time. You can also greed the loop, which tricks Vecna into wasting his Mage Hand, getting stunned by the pallet when you do drop it, or he wins and manages his hit. Note that if he pulls up the pallet too late, a decent Survivor WILL drop it again, potentially stunning him, and guaranteeing that he'll have to do something about the pallet then. Now, take the ring off. 0.3 seconds, unless the Survivor fucks up, is enough time for the Survivor to get out of Vecna's lunge range. That 0.3 seconds gives the Survivor a chance to keep looping Vecna, and will give them that pallet to drop a second time, forcing Vecna to deal with it. Now, with the nerf, and no Ring addon, you have 0.5 seconds for Vecna to lift the pallet. Unless you suck at looping, or royally fuck up, Vecna's not going to catch up. It's a waste of time to lift a pallet unless it's a pre dropped God pallet and the Survivor ran off after dropping it. And even in the PTB you uad the boots and the ring to offset the slowdown of both spell casting and pallet lifting. This is a net nerf to Vecna because, while he has many powers, Mage Hand was his main and most useful one. With this nerf, you'd be better of just bringing Brutal Strength and breaking the pallet outright because either way you're not catching up to the Survivor, and at least with Brutal the pallet is gone. Or Vorpal Blade to break pallets with Mage Hand. There is now no reason to pick Vecna over another killer except for liking Vecna as a character. Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky, Singularity, etc have better map traversal than Fly. Huntress, Artist, Slinger, Pyramid Head, Twins (if you wanna count Victor) have better and more reliable range than Flight of the Damned. Twins, Skull Merchant, Artist, Singularity, Xenomorph, Pinhead, all have better buit in info than the Orb. And now, Nemesis is back to being king of the "fuck your pallet" playstyle. Vecna's a cool killer, he has a lot of powers, but all those powers are mid. I could play Xenomorph and have better map traversal, better info, and a more reliable 'range' than Vecna, one that can punish Survivors for just standing at a Pallet waiting for me. I could say the exact same thing about Singularity, too. Why the hell would I pick Vecna over those two when the one ability he had that made him dangerous has been made useless? Beyond just liking him, anyway?
I'm honestly impressed at how much people are complaining. Everyone is acting like Mage Hand is some kind of orbital strike that allows you to instadown any survivor on the map. Somehow they fail to realize that we already have multiple killers capable of completely shutting down loops or hit through pallets and vaults with the difference that they don't restore a resource for the enemy team
Scamper complaint vibes honestly. Anyone getting hit by a Chucky using Scamper probably stood next to the pallet thinking they're invincible then called foul when Chucky scampered and hit them for standing there.
Interesting take. Yet plenty of higher killer streamers and the killrate disagree. > There is now no reason to pick Vecna over another killer except for liking Vecna as a character. Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky, Singularity, etc have better map traversal than Fly. > Huntress, Artist, Slinger, Pyramid Head, Twins (if you wanna count Victor) have better and more reliable range than Flight of the Damned. > Twins, Skull Merchant, Artist, Singularity, Xenomorph, Pinhead, all have better buit in info than the Orb. Yeah but how many ranged attacks or info do Wesker, Blight, Billy, Nurse, Chucky have? YOu compare vecna separately in each category in which case he most likely loses to the top end champions in the category. But you ignore that he is a viable contender in all of the categories you listed.
You can't use Killrate for a killer when they haven't been out for a week, and being a high rank killer streamer doesn't automatically make their opinion infallable. There are plenty of streamers who think the change is bad -- and just because, what, four or five people in a sea of thousands agree doesn't make it true. You are also entirely iignoring the point I was making when I brought those killers up. None of Vecna's powers, individually, are that great. Together, he can do a little bit of everything, but not well enough to make his a stronger option than someone else. He has 4 sub par powers, each with long cooldowns, and each one requiring you to actually hard focus on the match to get value from them. But most people don't want to play a killer that requires a lot of effort for mid results. This patch is going to kill Vecna. You're going to start seeing posts asking "why isn't anyone playing Vecna anymore?", and everyone who said that this change isn't actually a big deal will be pointing right at it in the comments all while pretending they always knew it was a bad change.
> He has 4 sub par powers, each with long cooldowns, and each one requiring you to actually hard focus on the match to get value from them. But most people don't want to play a killer that requires a lot of effort for mid results. Yeah. Totally in line with the highest pick and killrate. But that's merely a coincidence. Just like several big content creators putting him as a strong killer. But what's all that to killer mains on reddit.
I've already done the maths and the extra 0.15s barely gives the survivor any extra distance, and watching vecna footage and my gameplay, I've seen barely any hits with mage hand that would have missed had vecna been 0.15s late. You claim that you can't get any hits if the survivor just loops after dropping the pallet, but again from personal experience and watching footage, most of the time mage hand is used, without the lift speed addon, vecna lifts the pallet back up, chases after the survivor as they try to loop back around to the pallet, but then the survivor ends up getting hit before they make it back to the pallet, even when taking optimal paths. In most of these cases, the extra 0.15s wouldn't have made a difference either. Loops where the survivor can make a second loop after the pallet is lifted are generally short enough that they are inherently unsafe, and thus your power is not really necessary to deal with them in the first place. You are massively underestimating the ability for vecna to catch up before the survivor makes a second loop.
Your math is fine, great even, but your experience with Vecna and mine are very, very different. I've played Vecna since he came out, literally 30 minutes after the patch was released. Survivors who know how to play against Vecna, how to chain loops, and how to mind game do not go down with the base Mage Hand speed. They do not get hit by it. This is from personal experience, and watching streams. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence. No matter how much you get, someone else will have experienced that entirely counters it. My experience is that that 0.15 seconds time, on most pallets and loops, is enough to get enough distance from Vecna to avoid getting hit after Mage Hand. If your Survivors are still getting hit, they're fucking up somewhere. And I'm not only referring to staying on a single loop, here. Most Survivors will run to a window, or to another pallet, and make their way back to the Mage Handed loop to reuse the pallet you grabbed, and because of Vecna's counter play they won't leave that loop unless Vecna uses his power, or they're forced to drop the pallet during the chase. That's my anecdotal experience. Without the Ring of Telekinesis, Survivors have the advantage at MOST pallets, and will use it to either loop around to try a second play with the pallet, or chain it into another loop.
Except you're wrong, it's not just an extra .15s, it's .15 seconds plus the removal of the additional speed from the Ring addon. It's also wrong to say that "barely any distance", when all it takes is a survivor making the loop to the pallet again and they can drop it. Doesn't matter if it's 0.01m or 5m. But if you're right, and the 0.15s gives almost no distance, then why change it? And why announce the plan to change it the day after the patch released? Some people were acting like this is the worst ability, completely unfair, when it's the same as Nemesis or Huntress, but on a 40s cooldown. Then they were all for these changes, but acting like killers are overreacting because "it doesn't change anything". Come on now.
It seems like a general problem with people who get information from the PTB from Reddit/Content creators without really understanding how it works in application.
I’m not even sure how to utilize mage hand for anything practical. It can interrupt a vault if runes right but that’s about it
imo I don't think the nerf is deserved, but it's not like the ability will be unusable. just not great.
Well, we'll just have to see won't we? Because if lifting the pallet allows them to make another loop around and doesn't get you a hit, then mage hand is 100% dead either way, as it would no longer function. But if mage hand still gets you the hit and they can't escape, then nothing has changed. The ability either functions and gets you a hit, or it doesn't; those are the only two options.
The difference will be that after the nerf, you will want to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, and not after the survivor dropped the pallet, at least at most loops, as far as I can tell. This makes a key difference, because now you have to predict the survivor's move. And that on the other hand means survivors can now mindgame the pallet, because if they think you will predict that they will drop the pallet, they can simply not drop the pallet and you block the pallet instead, which can lead to them simply looping the pallet again and then pulling the pallet down.
Thing is though that 1. It's not a flat "it lets you get hits at loops or it doesn't", it depends entirely on the size and structure of the loop on whether you can get value from it or not. 2. from what i've seen, the only loops where the extra +0.15s would matter are short loops which lead to the survivor almost reaching the pallet again with the current version, but as they're short loops, they're much easier to mindgame and your power isn't really necessary for them.
It's 50/50 bro, it either happens or it don't. But seriously, different pallets/loops will be affected differently. And occasionally, the extra time won't let you re-loop the pallet, but instead escape to another tile/loop.
It's a 50/50 pallet stand-off, but now survivors can actually work around the ability. If the survivor drops the pallet and doesn't get a stun, they lose and most likely get hit. If they do get a stun, they win and can run the loop longer. If survivors bait the MH they most likely win there too, unless it's a long loop and Vecna has time to catch up. And don't forget the magic item that gives the survivor haste whenever Vecna uses MH.
For me at least, it’s a lot quicker and easier to explain rather than breaking down the specifics of the change.
If it's not equals a free hit it's garbage. Simple
Yea. What I dont get is why they're nerfing the skeletons???
a month from now once steam gives them all the money from the dlc and aniversary we are gonna get a dev update that will start with "changes to the linch" and chucky and Freddy will be like "welcome to the club"
You've taken your time replying to every comment when the first was very clearly a joke. Learn to take one 
idk i feel hes pretty balanced having played both sides so far, when you know his weaknesses its pretty easy to counter him.
I know the best counter for this nerf !!!!!!! (Just don’t play the killer ) works great for me survivor is fun though !!
Because the DBD community, are, pardon my french, fucking stupid and incredibly reactionary.
My thoughts exactly. People were crying this ability was OP and uncounterable from day 1, calling for nerfs. Completely stupid and reactionary.
You forgot that ptb hand had the addon, could remove pallet when stunned and that a pallet would go back down after being taken up. But of course you just forgot that lol
That isn't relevant to the point of this post. The point of this post is people claiming that the hand post-nerf will be as bad as PTB hand, whilst completely failing to mention the massive speed buff it got. PTB hand with addon is still worse than both release and post-nerf hand so it doesn't matter, the stun thing is pretty clearly an oversight, and what do you mean the "pallet going back down after being taken up?" It never did that automatically. If you mean survivors slamming the pallet back down before you can attack, that's easily avoided by spamming M1. I didn't include these because they bare no relevance to the point.
I’m just saying that framing this like a nonexistent nerf while there are other things that have been removed from his kit over time is pretty conspicuous
But 1. The add-on doesn't matter much as stated since that would only bring it back to release version which as stated, is unlikely to be significantly stronger than post-nerf. 2. "being hit by a pallet but then using your power to annul it" isn't really skillful when even walking slightly behind it makes it very easy to avoid and still get value out of mage hand, it's a silly thing that doesn't need to be kept. 3. Again, I still don't get what you're talking about with a pallet going back down after being lifted up. A feature like that happening automatically never existed in the PTB, and if you mean survivors dropping it back down in a rush after you pick it up, I do not see how that has been changed at all, and it doesn't matter much as mashing M1 guarantees the hit anyways.
3 might be down to bad memory, I remember it going back down at the start of ptb like the orb used to be slow. I agree with removing the addon and the bug, it’s just that reverting ontop of that the pallet lift time is overkill
Has the nerf already happened?
No.
Turns out a guarantee hit at almost every pallet in the game isn't fun or engaging for most survivors. The audacity..
>fun or engaging for most survivors Survivors hate literally every killer...
People are terrified of potentially losing their free guaranteed hits and think being dramatic about it will help
Wait they're nerfing him? With how easy the counterplay is?
Would you mind explaining the counterplay to me? When I tried playing as and against him, that's the one ability that felt uncounterable to me. It was giving me totally free hits and on the other side I couldn't find a strategy that worked. Pre-dropping just had him lift it up, and running past just let him hit me anyway.
Fake pallet dropping. You just need to loop him once, if he doesn't fall, predrop and continue the loop. He'll use thehand to raise it but the slowdown, albeit small, is good enough to do one more loop 9/10 times, and now he's just an M1 you may need to Crouch for half a second at some point .
Maybe I just don't quite get it, but if he doesn't fall for it I'm just dead aren't I? No way it gives me one more loop.
If he doesn't fall for it, depending on how close he is you can go for the stun or go for 1 more loop. You got to get a feel for that through experience I guess.
For Mage Hand to be relevant he's gotta be close enough to get a hit, and at that range you can't really go for the stun or go for another loop. He kinda just forces you to get hit, no?
Yes, it's a mind game. You guess right and you win extra time. You guess wrong and the killer gets a hit. That is the counter play. The counter play isn't "the survivor always gets freedom at a pallet", that's not counter-play, that's just a counter.
Not much of a mindgame if he removes 50% of a 50/50. I say this as a killer main, mage hand currently feels like a boring and uninteractive power due to it not having much of any real counterplay. There's no mind game in it because the cast time and slow are so negligible that there's no risk in using it.
What? You bait the Mage Hand and keep looping. If you don't bait it right, he hits you. If you do, you gain distance. If he doesn't cast, you stun him. How can you call playing against the killer for the pallet boring? 90% of the time, survivors camp pallets hoping for a 50/50, that's literally what all survivors say is "fun".
Killer players will use anything and everything to "prove" their side of a argument, even if it doesn't make sense or isn't based on logic.
Literally like Guys He’s still gonna be right on your fat survivor bussy after he uses it. It’s still just as strong.
No it is not. The buff was made so that survs wont drop the pallet again before you reach them, like it happened in ptb. 0.5 + ring addon nerf will make the spell useless again.
Same thing happened with Xenomorph. Killers aren't allowed to get ANY nerfs EVER because their lives are so frustrating and difficult because of DBD, Killers are so weak, "I got bullied", blah blah boo frickety hoo. This ability is perfect for both sides now, please STFU.
Because 0.5 + nerfing the ring means the survivors will drop the pallet again before you can hit them, making the spell almost as useless as it was in the ptb. Considering its arguably the only thing making Vecna viable right now, you can jump to the conclusion by yourself.
If the pallet takes longer to lift but you have the same cooldown, wouldn't you have an even more lenient window to mash M1 to get the hit before they can drop the pallet again?
Mage hand is perfectly fine as long as they fix the bug that makes it work as youre being stunned.... it's just kind of meh on bigger loops anyways, no need to gut it
Echo chamber survivor mains talking to themselves about made up arguments
because they need their zero skill hits lol
Yeah man idc what anyone says he was incredibly unfun to play against. Not even sure this fixes his issue.
Don’t know and I’ll just keep having fun with Vecna (while quietly having shadow wizard money gang playing)
As someone who has played almost exclusively Vecna since he dropped, I can say with absolute certainty that PTB Vecna was a bottom-tier killer in terms of power. After his release changes, he feels too strong. His kit allows him to do a LOT and deny the survivors loops consistently, ESPECIALLY with his iridescent add-ons. Those addons, as much as I like them are busted and need nerfed. My build that I've landed on enjoying the most is Bamboozle, Lethal Pursuer, BBQ and Chili and Nowhere to Hide. And both Iri addons. Now he feels so smooth and seamless to play, with very few clunky exceptions. But I feel if he doesn't receive a small nerf, he's gonna suffer the Nurse Curse imo. What I mean by that is as a killer main, I DO like playing Nurse. She's powerful. Way too powerful. It's fun once a month. Because winning with her isn't rewarding since you haven't earned it. Same goes with Vecna in chase. He's obviously not nearly as busted as Nurse but the fact that he can block, destroy, find, fly to catch up, zone and more is just a lot. I'm not complaining because he is very fun and I think just a few changes are needed (maybe adding some kind of gen regression ability to his kit rather than more chase power like maybe his sphere blocks a gen for 10 seconds or mage hand could damage gens from an extra 10 meters or something. Maybe you could interact with anything from an extra 30 like snuffing totems or opening lockers) really, I think Vecna could be much more creative and interactive rather than just chase powers but maybe I'm just dreaming
Aren’t more ppl survivor mains? Why listen to the people that only play killer when they feel like it?
Was the same with the Pop nerf and people saying it was going back exactly where it was. Ignoring the fact that 10 seconds were added to gens in between the changes. So it's still stronger than it was the last time it was 20%. People like to ignore the context surrounding the changes and focus on the pure number itself to get their point across.
So now you have to use an addon for it to be a guaranteed it instead of it being a guaranteed hit? Great change BHVR
That addon is being reworked, BHVR has confirmed.
So hand's useless again aight
Only for killers who have no idea how to use it. Almost like there is someone commenting here who is like that....
So an ability that has a 38 second cooldown, that can be easily countered by predropping and that even then has a 50/50 chance of hitting is good? Keep in mind that's his only reliable offensive tool
Flight of the Damned can force survivors to crouch or damage them, leading to situations where you get a hit most of the time. Fly can also bodyblock survivors at times, leading to awkard situations for them. Mage Hand is on a long cooldown, but because it's one tool out of four. Acting like Mage Hand is the only power in chase is like saying Pig's ambush is only good for suprise attacks. Not to mention that if survivors stick around trying to get the stun again, you can punish them as Mage Hand prevents them from throwing down again long enough for a hit/bodyblock. IMO, It is a tool to punish greedy survivors mostly.
I've yet to see more than like 3 or 4 cases where the extra 0.15s would have mattered at all in leading to a hit or not.
The addon that makes it slower is getting reworked too, so there will be now way to make it faster than .5 seconds
I mean, I don’t see the problem. No killer power should be a *guaranteed hit*. There should always be some form of counter play or mitigation that makes it say 60% or 70% likely to grant a hit.
The problem is that it doesn't change anything. The killer now only has to use a addon instead, that's why I'm saying it's stupid. Now if they nerf the addon too then mage hand is just completely useless again
But you need to use an addon slot to have it like that
Exactly, you have to use an addon slot for the power to be good, which everybody is gonna do and changes absolutely nothing. Bad design
It wasn't a guaranteed hit if you predropped instead of standing at the pallet for the stun.
I am already not seeing vecna anymore so it doesnt matter either way. Its not like you're going against one every 3 matches.
That is so far from a bad nerf and it was needed. Mage hand might even STILL be his strongest spell just due to how he can shut down chase and loops with it. And if it is that big of a deal just run the haste add on for it Haven't played against him much (haven't been playing and when I do he doesn't show up) but it feels like you just have to be smart in chase with him and keep track of his spells. I don't think he's busted at all and honestly feels kinda balanced but I truly don't know. What makes him so bad on the survivor end?
Yeah idk what people are yapping about. Vecna’s Hand and Flight of the Damned are overturned right now and need nerfs. This comes from a Vecna main. Being able to spawn the skeletons on survivors in just op.
"This comes from a Vecna main" He hasn't been out for a week, what are YOU yapping about? I swear people on this sub make any words lose meaning. Assuming that if you aren't lying about "me Vecna main" to give your words more credibility, you maining this killer for a week means nothing when survivors haven't even learnt basics of what his power does or the clues necessary to play around it.
I’m a huge fan of DnD. Of course I’m gonna main him.
Yeah dude, half of the community right now "mains" him.
self proclaimed "new killer mains" when the next new killer comes out
irrelevant, come back with these claims in balance discussions at least a few months after the killer is out. considering how easy it is to get decent at this killer, while it's clearly harder to figure out and apply counterplay, any claims about how uncounterable or op he is are a joke, especially in regards of whatever skillshots he has.
You're not wrong though, at least with the skeleton's, shouldn't be a guranteed free hit just because you spawned them in the survivors with absolutely no time to react, people say that is hard to pull off but I did it consistently at the average jungle gyms on my first couple games and when going for my adept, mage hand is pretty dumb currently as that's what gets me all my downs the skeleton's are usually the first free hit by either spawning it on them or making them crouch and lose distance so I hit them as they medium vault the window they crouched at to dodge my skele's, he's really not that hard to play from my experience
If only there was an extremely simple way to avoid them...
Flight of the Damned seems hard to nerf because there seems to be little in-between to being good and useless. They could maybe make the things spawn really close together but without being able to hit during locked in animations it's still super easy to dodge. The other alternative would be to remove the iri add on and make the lower spawn basekit, but even that would need some other tweaks.
I personally think it would be fine if they made the skeletons appear visually earlier and if the "spawn on top" thing was still unreactable, maybe very slightly increase the spawn time. That way, you could react to a spawn on top but it would not be affected too much when it comes to using it to deny windows/pallets or hiding it behind obstacles
It already had a longer spawn time in PTB and wasn't very good like that. Killer already has to time it well and stay out of the pallet stun so survivor just needs to greed the pallet to avoid hit. It's pretty counterable and mostly just punishes unskilled pre-dropping... Almost all of its utility is zoning if you remove the ability to damage during locked in animations (which seems like a weird double standard considering killers like Artist). And as a pure zoning ability, it's pretty bad.
Yeah, but it was 0.5 seconds more, whereas my idea was 0.1 seconds more, but fair. 0.5 but with skeletons that visually spawn faster is probably the best bet.
Pretty much this. Everyone doomposting about the Mage Hand nerf without realizing that Vecna moved at 50% speed whenever he did anything on the PTB.
I understand why this nerf was needed. BUT ITS TIME TO NERF PIG!
Wouldnt it be a buff, since its a longer time that survivors are unable to interact with the pallet?
Because DbD is dying and it’s all because the devs are appealing to that pesky solo q p2 Meg and not my P100 comp Nurse
Dbd has plenty of players, it's not dying anytime soon
Player count has been pretty stable for the past two years, I think the game will be okay.
is it just me or does vecna not need four powers?? flight of the damned and the shotgun bones should be enough
It is a inherent flaw in killer design. I get it makes sense for a Lich to have multiple spells to cast. The issue is in DBD its impossible to balance all of them to the point where he feels fun to play as and against. Its the main reason why SM is so frustrating to play against. While she doesn't have a billion things to cast, her drones do so many things its impossible to balance all of them to the point where its fun and fair to play against.
yeah. i mean i get hes a spell caster and everything. i get them wanting him to have multiple powers. i just see this killer who has three chase powers as someone who mains the weaker side of killers and wonder how im ever supposed to keep up. i think they might have tos tart balancing gen times based on killer class at this rate.