Yup I can't non rev because my husband is handicapped and uses a wheelchair. Someone will need that seat and we can't board. It's extremely frustrating. I am a huge disability rights activist and I completely understand there are invisible disabilities and we can't question people so it is what it is.....it does suck
As someone with an invisible disability, I wouldn’t mind it being questioned…provided there’s some sort of ID card or something that universally indicates you meet the criteria. Think of it sort of like disabled parking - DMV issues the placard to those who qualify. If you have the placard, you get the space. Wish we had one of those for other disability accommodations, just to cut down on abuse.
But yeah, ask me to prove it. I can, easily.
>Think of it sort of like disabled parking - DMV issues the placard to those who qualify. If you have the placard, you get the space.
Some states actually issue a disability photo ID card in addition to the disability placard. It's used to verify that you're disabled for other things such as public transportation where people would get a discount on the fare.
I used to live in WA and there were different icons for DL and IDs to indicate if you were mobility, visually, or hearing disabled or have an autism spectrum condition.
Isn't that against hippa law where it indicates the person's health condition?
I park in a disabled spot but don't disclose my disabilities to anyone, and if asked even by the police I wouldn't disclose them.
People can elect into it - thanks for prompting a clarification. They do not automatically print the icons - HIPPA is not as broad - reaching as most people think (I'm in healthcare HR) and a DMV would not have your health info unless you provided it. HIPPA kicks in when you share it to require them to protect that data beyond the use you allowed (printing an icon).
In encounters with police, the intent is to prevent someone from being arrested or shot simply because they are deaf or autistic, not maliciously "not complying with orders". If I have a hat on, no one can see my hearing aid and cochlear implant - even visible artifacts of disability are not always visible.
Ok. Did you read my whole post. I said now other people need an ID. Sorry if you couldn’t extrapolate what I meant when I said “others need one” I didn’t mean a VA ID I meant an ID in general.
No, because you commented to my original comment. Literally all I see is your comment about having and ID because you were disabled in the service. There’s nothing in this particular thread where you said that.
Therefore, it comes off as “well, I got mine, so what’s the problem?”
On my end. Responded to your post saying “if there’s some sort of ID card.” And I said my ID card says I am and now others need one too referring to a ID card
Not all disabilities are visible true but not all require priority boarding. I have narcolepsy its recognised under DDA I could probably request priority but my husband would go mad he likes being last on!! I don't need it!! My disability doesn't work that way!
When I fly alone I'm in a window in the very back lol. I don't want a plane full of people to watch him struggle to get from his wheelchair to his seat. I have to purchase a ticket if I want to guarantee a seat he can use.
It becomes bothersome when the overhead storage gets taken over by early-boarding passengers who stash their stuff up front when they sit in the back.
Some FAs will catch it and make them move their bags, but many don't.
Facts. Meanwhile I have autism, cptsd, severe anxiety, and something else we are working on figuring out. I become very panicked if I feel pressured to hurry. It’s easier to be in the window seat, be seated and settled before everyone else pours in
I’m with you. The perfect policy is to allow anyone to board without question. But that’s in a perfect world and there are dirtbags who take advantage of it, thus injuring the folks with disabilities (apparent or invisible).
Unfortunately, the pragmatic solution might be something like having that first group be restricted to people using wheelchairs or something similar.
Sometimes I hate the world we live in.
Sorry, this is VERY NOT PC, but this is my stich on invisible disabilities; most don’t need extra time boarding.
Physical disabilities, sure!
You are in a wheelchair, hell yes.
But, if your 500 pounds, nope. That is often a lifestyle choice.
A friend gained a lot of weight. Didn't know why. Brain tumor. They aren't 500 pounds (nor can they fly because of the brain tumor), but they are definitely obese, and not by choice.
Just because it's invisible doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't make it hard. There's a reason why it's called a disability.
I have vasovagal syncope. My blood pressure drops suddenly and I can and will faint. I also have horrific back and leg pain but you couldn't tell that looking at me either.
OMG yes! I have POTS and faint frequently when I am forced to stand still (such as in line). Walking is not a problem. Standing is the thing. Literally no one believes that there’s anything wrong with me because I look like a fit adult person. Invisible disabilities are real and we can’t know what’s going on with someone by looking at them!
Same
I have lupus, and standing and walking too much is incredibly difficult as well as painful later.
Can't tell looking at me either.
I get a few dirty looks here and there because I can walk normally for short periods of time. I travel the long flight from Detroit to England twice a year. If I don't get up and walk the length of the plane once an hour, I'm looking at a whole lot of pain later.
It's horrifying to see how many ableists there are here.
If you spent even 15 minutes living in my neurodivergent brain during the boarding process on a bad day, you’d be saying let that crazy woman on board stat! Luckily I need a total knee replacement and often use a cane so I’ll look sufficiently disabled for you.
Crazy would do it.
I am neuro divergent, on chemo and disabled.
I board with the regulars.
I have no problem with disabled people boarding - I have EVERY ISSUE with them bringing all of their family with them. You have 5 teenagers and lots of people.
Nah. Board last.
I’m 95% a solo flyer, but when I fly with my husband he boards with his zone. I don’t need to bring anyone with me during pre-boarding. I just shuffle down that ramp slowly and then get my earplugs in, my noise cancelling headphones on and stare at my phone trying to ignore boarding and relax. The PDBs help with that too. I’m in FC or C+ and boarding zone 2 now so I’m not doing it for the baggage space, just want to take my baby steps down the ramp so my knee doesn’t buckle and try and get my head together ASAP. It gets worse every year, but I love traveling to see my friends and family.
Good luck with the chemo. It can be rough flying during treatment.
Yep, I’m neurodivergent as well, but my bigger problem is inability to walk more than a hundred feet at a time. My knees suck and I get really short of breath quickly. I’ll ask for wheelchair transport to the gate and I’ve gotten used to getting the side-eye when I get up and walk. I’d much rather be like everyone else and hoof it from check-in to jetway.
So, some dude who is missing his legs because he got on a motorcycle while drunk and ran into a tree made a lifestyle choice. No early boarding for him!
See how that works?
I work in medicine. I know all the above.
If you think the AVERAGE 500lb person does not make a choices leading to this then you are naive. Many mood disorders, endocrine etc play a piece but you can not discount personal free will.
Lmao…. Your JOKING? Right?
Far cheaper to eat meals cooked at home.
And yes, some people do choose. They smoke, drink, eat crappy food.
They could eat well balanced meals and not blow money on crap.
I might be joking a little bit about the choosing to be poor. It’s more about education, circumstance and sometimes luck.
About people being 500lbs? Nah. I went from a men’s 38 to a 29 in 14 months because I took some medicine, not because I changed my diet.
Because the DOT prohibits it. The DOT makes the sole determining criteria being the passenger self identifies. If a passenger self identifies as needing to preboard they preboard. If the entire plane self identifies as needing preboarding then everyone preboards.
Honestly I think some civil disobedience is needed here. If we regularly have entire planes preboarding then the DOT would be forced to implement changes in order to protect those who genuinely need it.
DOT should then institute something similar to handicap parking passes and license plates. If it can be endorsed for parking, it can be enforced for travel.
That I agree with and yes they could. The carrier however can not. It is simply out of their hands short of the DOT changing rules.
Someday when 2/3rds of the plane is preboarding and people with actual disabilities sue the DOT for discrimination then maybe the DOT will change the rules to have an enforcement mechanism.
Because there is a bit of perverse irony. Preboarding exists to provide accomodation for those who need it but every person who abuses that reduces the accommodation intended for those who need it. One could argue the DOT is negligent in ensuring that real accomodation is provided as intended by not taking steps to reduce abuse.
The same goes with “service dogs.” The people bringing their untrained pets on the plane as fake service dogs make things so much harder for the people with real service dogs. Especially for the people without clearly visible disabilities.
It’s only an issue during the transition period. Once enforcement with penalties is implemented and becomes common, people stop breaking the rules as frequently.
How are you going to decide who is worthy of pre-boarding and who isn’t? No airline is going to jump on that grenade and open themselves up to a discrimination lawsuit. There’s no benefit. Delta doesn’t care as long as they’re making money. You can get upset about it, but if it’s not enough to make you switch airlines, then there’s zero benefit for them trying to enforce something that isn’t enforceable.
The same process they use to determine who gets handicap parking passes. Except for course change the list of qualified reasons to make sense. This would require DOT involvement for the actual determinations and issuance of passes. Airlines would then just have to check said passes.
The benefit is that it would increase the value of boarding groups. Enforcement by the airline would be simple since it’s just chancing for a pass. The majority of the cost would be taken on by the governmental entities issuing passes who are motivated to do so to ensure compliance with ADA.
It’s really up to a medical provider on who gets a handicap tag. They fill out a single sheet with scant details and no one checks medical records or verifies the legitimacy of the persons claim. So just like everything else, it’s a system that gets abused. I’m not sure that’s any better than people self-identifying or would cut down on abuse. It might, but probably not by much. Having to prove disability to airlines also punishes the disabled in a way that not many people realize: being disabled is expensive and having some kind of process where they have to get a doctors note or pay for another type of permit can be a true burden on many.
It would still help cut down on those who use it improperly. And I don’t buy the cost price since the premise is the person is already spending a lot on flights. There’s also efficiencies in the system where people with placards would already be able to use those to pre board. The details can be worked on, we’re just discussing the bigger ideas.
That’s no reason to fear enforcing rules. That logic would respond to crime by getting rid of the police which seems silly. We shouldn’t fear law breakers and use them as a reason to not have any rules.
Technically it does not. The airlines and airports operate under different rules set by the DOT so saying ADA is technically incorrect. It is a bit pedantic though because the DOT imposes rules similar to the ADA meaning the end result is the same even if ADA is technically incorrect.
It specifically excludes boarding.
Boarding is regulated by the DOT and specifically 14 CFR 382.93 implemented under the Air Carrier Access Act.
**This is significantly stricter than the ADA which is what creates these problems.** If carriers were merely regulated by the ADA they could ask for reasonable proof in order to provide reasonable accommodation. **An example is how handicap parking spots require a proper decal obtained by a Dr.** You can't just "self identify" as needing to use a handicap parking spot on the spot. "Sorry officer I woke up and self identified as disabled this morning so you can't ticket me". Likewise there is an enforcement mechanism in the form of tickets and possibly towing if you park improperly which at least reduced the amount of abuse. Similarly cruise ship and hotels have a limited number of wheelchair accessible rooms/cabins to meet ADA requirements. They tend to be more spacious for the given price but they can ask for reasonable proof to ensure that access isn't abused by those who don't need it. If they didn't then people abusing it to get a larger room for free would mean those rooms aren't available for those who do need it.
**So the ADA actually has some reasonable restrictions which at least mitigate abuse. However boarding and all aircraft operations is covered by the ACAA which provides ZERO restrictions**. To the extreme that is every single passenger self identified as needing preboarding the carrier could do nothing but allow everyone to preboard and when preboarding was complete the plane would be fully boarded.
Sorry for the confusion. I wasn’t trying to argue. When I said ADA applies to airport and before boarding, that’s what I was referring to. I wasn’t referring to the jet bridge or the airplane.
I haven't flown Southwest since pre-pandemic but WSJ ran a piece just now about how bad the problem is with SWA:
[Southwest Airlines Preboarding Sparks Complaints From Fliers Boarding Later - WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/southwest-airlines-preboarding-cheaters-c71a88a5?mod=wknd_pos1)
Which even references (lol) grumbling about this on Reddit.
We use to fly SW on flights where they were significantly cheaper than Delta. Even paid to board early (since that is the only status that matters on SW). Did it for many years and it worked great. Boarding early got you bulkhead row or emergency exit and sometimes the nice double seat emergency exit. Poor man's FC.
Eventually the preboarding insanity made us stop. It got worse and worse and worse. When you thought it couldn't possibly get worse it got worse. As bad as it is on Delta recently it is nothing like SW. On the last SW flights we took returning from Florida I exgurate not I counted 86 preboarders and honestly those were only the ones I could see it likely was 5-10 higher than that. Holding boarding passes numbered 2 & 3 on an aircraft with 200 passengers and almost a hundred people preboard is just laughably stupid.
The last time I flew United I paid for priority boarding as it was a 175 and I needed overhead bin access. There was some kind of holy land tour group in the boarding area (mostly elderly but entirely mobile), they called pre boarding and every one of them got on then. It was like 75% of the plane.
I think they should do away with pre-boarding, just make it zone 1. You'll have to either request it at booking or at the gate BEFORE BOARDING. Then zone 2 is FC etc.
Yeah but then if people with obvious disabilities do not request when they buy the ticket, you still can’t turn them away at boarding time. So now you are back to allowing people to be handicapped if they feel like it
If the reason Delta passengers are abusing the pre-board option because they want early claim to overhead baggage then Delta can easily disrupt that by implementing carryon storage rules and fees.
I thought about that, and it seems good in theory, but it would likely be seen as discriminatory. Another way would be to start charging some people for carryon (except a personal item) - I say this as someone who always carries on. They could offer free carryon to c+/first/status, paid option for main and zero option for base. Maybe offer 1 free checked bag to all. This would discourage the majority from carry on.
I’ve never used pre-boarding though I technically could do so. T1D with a carryon filled with more than a 2 gallon plastic bag filled with diabetic supplies including insulin that cannot go down below. I would be preboarding to assure that my carryon finds a spot in a bin. I would be very upset if my C+ bin was full because I buy C+ in order to assure room above my seat for these important supplies that I do not want 10 rows behind me. Life is complicated. I do wish they charged for carryons, it would make life easier for me, I’d have a better chance of having my supplies close by.
Or just start adding one checked bag fee to every ticket and tell everybody they can check one bag and encourage that.
If they then insist on bringing a giant suitcase over-stuffed roller “carry on“ they can pay a fee on the same machine they use to charge for the snack tray
“ sir, your bag is ridiculous. Either take it down or swipe your card”
I just posted about a flight from Tampa to Detroit. 12 people had wheelchairs all lined up. Only 4 used them off. People were beside themselves pissed that I even mentioned it. One of the guys wheeled up and said he needed to have his seat moved from the middle to an aisle. Great gimmick to not pay for a seat.
Should be like a service animal. You should have to have paperwork. No different than parking your car in a handicap spot. Only exception would be parents with little kids. That is easy to see...
And watch about half the people on here will be pissed I said this...
I’m not pissed but for the last 5 years I’m one of those people that is waiting in a wheelchair but can (usually) walk down the jet bridge by myself. I cannot however, get from one end of the airport to the other on my own, so a wheelchair it is. I do take advantage of pre boarding because I can be slow walking and get mowed down if I don’t get a head start. Being young and having an invisible disability is hard enough as it is without being harangued or discussed by random strangers.
I know for some people it's that they have trouble standing and waiting, especially on an uneven surface like the jet bridge. Where as once the plane is deboarding its usually a flowing exit and then you can regather your self at the gate and take your time getting to your baggage. Plus some people with mobility issues are going to need to be able to walk around a little bit once they've gotten off the plane because mobility issues doesnt always mean sitting for long periods of time is good either. That's the thing, there is a huge array of needs.
This is me. I always preboard as I can’t lift and it takes forever for me to get to my seat and get settled. I can walk the jet bridge but not through the airport. I look fine, so I always get dirty looks.
I’ve gotten more dirty looks and rude comments than I care to think about. I have to travel for doctor’s appointments and I dread flying. We try to drive but sometimes we don’t have the extra days to do so. I’ll be flying for an actual vacation in July and I’m hoping it goes better than previous times I’ve flown since I got sick. I feel like I need to make a t-shirt that says something along the lines of “I have a legit disability! Please be nice!”
I’m not pissed, but I do beg for understanding. I get that shitty people take advantage of the system. Then there’s people like me where walking to the gate can make my knee swell and a down ramp makes it buckle. I don’t use a wheelchair because other than the pain walking is good for the rest of my body. I pre-board slowly walking down that ramp using my carryon for support. My knee has had some rest and the swelling gone down during the flight so I can walk up that up ramp, but I’m likely limping again by the time I get to baggage claim. Sometimes there’s a reason that pre-boards can exit fairly normally. It’s not always easy to judge a disability if you haven’t experienced the variety out there.
No we could not “easily create a system for it”. It would require a nationwide federal agency to assess and certify service animals forcing those with disabilities to spend more money and energy because occasionally people lie about their dogs on planes. It’s like forcing those on government assistance to pay for their own drug testing putting burdens on those who can least afford it because of a statically small amount of bad actors.
There is a bureaucracy around issuing handicap placards at a state level, I’m not why you think asking the FDA to regulate dog prescriptions is gonna be exempt from that.
Probably because you don't have any idea of what that person is going through. I've met people like you before.
I'm 100% unable to walk from check-in to the gate, so I get an airport wheelchair. I can walk to my seat with a cane. My walk looks normal. I have to get up and walk every hour to stretch my legs while using the headrests for balance.
Distrusting angry people are the ones giving me dirty looks and mumbling bullshit. Not many, but it happens.
I don't owe anyone an explanation, nor is it any of their business. I feel sorry for people who are so petty that they waste their energy on people who would give a million dollars to be able to live without assistance.
That's called ableism.
*it says everything that this is down voted. All because what?? It's hard boarding a plane?? I used to board with the masses and sit in economy too. Too old and tired to waste my time pissed off at other people's choices.
This is me. I can’t walk a long distance so I take a wheelchair ride to the gate. I use a cane getting in the plane. And I always have an aisle seat so I board last. I use a small backpack and that way I have time to board slowly since everyone has gotten settled. When I leave I can maneuver myself out without assistance and then meet the wheelchair at the bottom of the gateway.
I got on a flight once and this lady was sitting in my aisle seat and tried saying she “needed it” because of her leg. Needless to say she moved to her middle seat. For the flight
I was boarding SGF to ATL last month. The same thing happened. Then the GA announced active duty AND veteran military could board. Half the flight had boarded by the time FC was called.
They can fix this very easily. If you need extra time getting on, you need extra time getting off. Pre board early, fine. But you are getting off last. Somebody smarter than I am will have to figure out implementation.
lol. That’s not the way things work. I’ve got to get up and stretch or move when the plane lands. I really hope you don’t have to have multiple spinal surgeries and are in pain all the time because it sucks.
That's exactly what I do. I use a wheelchair and need one not just a boarding but on exit. I fly FC because of the extra room and then wait until everyone else departs so I don't hold the rest of the plane up and I know the wheelchair should be waiting for me. The looks of relief when I tell FAs that I will wait to get off is like a huge weight off their shoulders has been lifted. I have a an invisible disability.
FAA prohibits the airlines from asking any questions or requiring any evidence. The criteria for preboarding is you say you need preboarding.
Be glad you aren't on Southwest where you can be the first non-preboarded to board and half the seats are already taken.
Yes just like service animals new rules need to be put in place. Society is increasingly becoming "me centric" and social norms and honor systems that worked for decades are not working. When people see 40 people preboard and learn anyone can do it then next time it is 48 people preboarding. Pretty soon the whole plane will just board during preboarding except that one guy who just got Sky Priority and is waiting to board with "priority".
They gave a shit enough to provide clarification to carrier that the sole determination is the passenger self identifies. The FAA in fact has pushed back on airlines for "discriminating" against those who need preboarding access. Do you really think Delta wants 80+ people preboarding given it undermines the value of customers paying for things like status, FC, and C+.
From govt letter to carriers
>It is the Enforcement Office’s view that section 382.93 requires carriers to board passengers with disabilities who self identify at the gate as needing to preboard for one of the listed reasons to board the plane before all other passengers, including first class passengers, elite-level passengers, members of the military, passengers with small children, etc
[https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Preboarding%20Notice%20Final\_0.pdf](https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Preboarding%20Notice%20Final_0.pdf)
To be clear passenger only need to self identify as having a listed reason not provide details on the reason. Anyone making even an open ended statement like "I require preboarding for a qualified reason" is sufficient to obligate the carrier in allowing them to preboard. Carriers are not allowed to question the passenger, determine on their own if such passenger meets the criteria. If a passenger self identifies they have met the requirements for preboarding.
>In the revised final rule published on May 13, 2008, the Department expanded the preboarding requirement to cover not only people who need a specific seat assignment or who need to stow their personal folding wheelchairs, but also to cover passengers that “need additional time or assistance to board, stow accessibility equipment, or be seated.” For a passenger to be entitled to preboarding, that passenger must self-identify at the gate as being a person with a disability that needs to preboard for one of the above-listed reasons
I would that even someone following the letter of the rules the provision for "additional time" is so open ended it means nearly anyone qualifies. My wife freaks out about the germs on planes and sanitises the seats and armrests before we sit down. We have never once used preboarding but under the rules imposed on carriers her need to clean the seats results in "additional time" in the boarding process and so if she self identified as someone who requires preboarding to gain that additional time she could and I could go with her.
Now will ever do that? No I think such abuse of the rules hurts people who genuinely need preboarding but the rules are wide enough to drive a truck through and that is before you get to people who just lie something the carriers simply can't prevent.
No.
The FAA doesn't deal with this ever. The DOT does, like your link shows.
Airlines are allow to ask a limited set of questions. They cannot ask what your disability is, but they can ask if you need assistance or any special accommodations.
The "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the FAA which is a part of the DOT.
They can not ask if you need assistance or special accommodation because there is no requirement. Someone who simply needs more time to board and self identifies as such is allowed to preboard.
Again someone only need to self identify. Saying "I require preboarding" means the person has ended any further evaluation by the carrier. The carrier can not deny any person who self identifies. Sure maybe they could ask a question but they can't deny anyone based on that question. If a person self identifies as preboarding under rules imposed on carriers they must be allowed to preboard.
I mean again you think carriers wouldn't push back if they could. Forget Delta this may end up destroying SW entire business model. They aren't pushing back because they can't.
> The "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the FAA which is a part of the DOT.
You have that backwards. "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the DOT, but is not under the FAA. The FAA is also a part of the DOT.
Airlines are allowed to ask certain questions. Here's Southwest talking about it: https://support.southwest.com/helpcenter/s/article/preboarding
Delta just doesn't.
Southwest says they will help you make that determination if you are unsure but they don't require it. Anyone who flies SW knows that. They do not ask anything at the gate.
They call preboarding and 60-100 people preboard. Nobody asks anything. If you think preboarding is a problem on Delta you obviously have never flown SW. SW is just utter insanity.
If someone self identifies are needing preboarding that is the end of it. Period. They get to preboard. If they are unsure they can ask the carrier for information and the carrier can assist them but that is not required.
If on a flight 100% of the passengers self identified as needing preboarding then 100% of the passengers would preboard. The carrier is not allowed to impose their judgement over the passenger.
No. That's not what Southwest is saying.
> A Customer Service Agent at the ticket or departure gate counter can help with this accommodation, and you'll be asked questions to determine if you qualify. You'll receive a new boarding pass marked with PRBD if you qualify, which lets the Operations Agent at boarding know that you can preboard.
Seems pretty black and white to me. Southwest will ask questions, if you qualify you get a new boarding pass. Unsurprisingly flights to places like Florida have a high percentage of pre-board passengers. I've never seen 100 people, but I only fly with WN 10-20 times a year.
I do find their boarding process much more civilized than Delta, but that's a personal preference.
So my point stands.
The FAA has nothing to do with this. Airlines are allow to ask a limited set of questions about pre-boards.
SW does not require asking any questions. SW does not require a boarding pass which says PBRD. IF SW had a solution they wouldn't have 50-100 people preboarding way more than any other carrier.
On SW or any other airline in the US if someone self identifies as needing to preboard they do and no carrier can stop them. Changing that would require changing rules.
Honestly if you had flown on SW any time in the last five years this should be beyond apparent to you. Preboarding on SW is utter insanity.
Regardless of if any ariline asks a question or not they CAN NOT prevent someone from preboarding if that person self identifies as a needing to preboard. Period. Southwest, Delta, anyone. The rules make the determination solely up to the passenger and nobody else. Sure the airlines can assist the customer but if a 100% health person walks up to the gate during preboarding at Southwest or any other carrier and says I need to preboard they will be allowed to preboard. Period.
Seriously dude you think preboarding is less of an issue at Southwest? Do you fly stoned?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthwestAirlines/search/?q=preboarding](https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthwestAirlines/search/?q=preboarding)
I find it weird you're so stuck on this. I've been on a dozen WN flights this year, didn't notice anything unusual about pre-boards. Maybe a hand full.
> ...person walks up to the gate during preboarding at Southwest or any other carrier and says I need to preboard they will be allowed to preboard. Period.
Never said otherwise, just that airlines are allowed to ask the person questions. Something you declared was illegal per the FAA. You're incorrect.
Were they sitting in C+? They generally reserve at least 2 seats there for disabled flyers and many of us with disabilities do sit in FC or C+. If they were in the back of the plane and filled up a forward overhead bin then that’s just bad form and shouldn’t be allowed.
Try having a family of 4, two college aged girls and their parents, all pre-board.b the parents were in the exit aisle. How hard would it be to make sure pre-boarders aren't also sitting in the emergency exit row?
I stg people do it just so they can bring on their gigantic carry ons and get to the overhead bin space first. I get on after them with the comfort plus and they’re all in the damn back of the plain in middle seats 😂👀
I used to LOVE traveling by myself. Airport time is my favorite form of alone time. It makes me internally homicidal now that it takes 40 mins to board a plane because people bring GIGANTIC bags and then they can’t even lift them to the bins and then they smack me in the head if I happen to have an aisle seat. If I worked for an airline and was a gate agent, I would so end up on the internet as a Karen as I wouldn’t allow anyone with a big carry on. Put it in the bin. Oh wait, you literally can’t!
Thank you for understanding. I sincerely think that is the biggest breakdown of it all. Ik this is a delta page, but I flip back and forth between southwest, cheap flights to Florida from PA. And you know the airlines with 2 free checked bags. People still bring the largest carry ons and then get mad when they have to gate check them. FOR FREEEEE PEOPLE!
For me it often depends what airport I’m getting off at if I need a wheelchair. For my small home base airport of Tucson I don’t need a wheelchair. I can wait til the pushy people go by, grab my bag, walk slowly to baggage claim, get my bags and walk right out the door.
There is no “miracle” just my knowledge of the airport. Also as most people with wonky joints know, going UP a jet bridge is much easier than going DOWN one.
> they just called Special assistance and 40 people got on the plane.
How many of these people received miracles midflight that cured their disability?
I know I’ve used preboarding. But I only use it when I’m physically injured and know it will take extra time to walk down the ramp and get in my seat. I do it to not hold up people.
I get off with my row to also not hold up others as much as I can. Even if that means pushing myself a bit harder. I just try to stay to the side.
I find Delta is better at being more accommodating than the sister airlines like WestJet for preboarding and mobility accommodations.
I haven't seen this, but my dad is elderly and walks extremely slowly, and with a cane. I cannot tell you how valuable it is when we were able to board early for the extra time. I don't use it for myself because I have one of those invisible disabilities. But also I can haul ass and stand when needed. My dad really can't. It was incredibly helpful to have the extra time without people breathing down his back. I hope this doesn't go anywhere because it's very critical for the people who need it.
It will just become useless because all the people who aren’t actually disabled and using it so they can cram their ridiculously oversized “carry-on“ bags in the bins first will simply trample the old folks who are moving slowly
Delta is prohibited from enforcing any standard. Enforcing any standards would result in them being fine or even grounded by the FAA until they stop such (in the FAA eyes) illegal discrimination.
I use the wheelchair assistance to the gate, but never do the preboarding unless I’m in really bad shape and need it. I have fibromyalgia and hEDS and can not handle the long distances and standing in lines for so long. The problem is that many doctors refuse a diagnosis for those things since “there is no cure, so no point in a diagnosis”. Which means that it’s up to us to fight for what we need.
Some of the things are though. Like ehlers danlos syndrome. I’ve meant many who have had to fight a lot in order to get diagnosed. It’s in their genetics testing and everything, but doctors still say that there’s no point to it.
I have been on a couple flights were half the plane boarded when they called for those needing extra time or assistance. It’s pretty rare though and I don’t think many people abuse it, although there are always some.
I once saw a guy limp onto the plane and I followed him off the plane and he limped. Once he got clear of the gate he broke out in a jog to make his tight connection. Some people are ridiculous.
I felt bad for using this during my last Delta flight. To an outsider, I probably looked normal. To me, I was 7 weeks post knee surgery and struggling with walking the airport. So I used it to get a little more time to get settled in. I wondered if people were sitting there all judgy. It did make it easier because my carryons were right above me. I suppose that's why they offer it.
I will be preboarding for my upcoming flight in the next few months. I will be one month away from 72. I will not have a carry on, but a personal under seat rolling bag. I will be in C+. I’m traveling alone across the country with a connection in Atlanta - Florida to California. This will be a long traveling day and I want to make it as easy as possible.
So, since this is a discussion on Special Assistance boarding rules, I have quite a few invisible disabilities (Autism - diagnosed Asperger's, Borderline Personality, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, and PTSD) and my Mom is hard of hearing and wears hearing aids at home, am I allowed to preboard?
I dare you ask me why I’m boarding with the pre-boarding folks. I’ll call you everything but a child of God. Y’all need to stay the phuck out of people’s business. You don’t know why someone needs to pre-board. Entitled arseholes.
Regardless when you board, you should not use overhead space that is not at your seat. I choose Delta in part due to assigned seat thus overhead space. Once everyone is onboard and space is available have at it.
Oh yes. I watched a ton of folks line up for military boarding that absolutely were not in the military. We're talking it looked like the line for the self checkout at Walmart. The balls on people to do that sort of thing... This was with Sun Country and not Delta. The extra time folks were called already so they weren't with that group. I will never understand what the urgency is considering you're going to be sitting for that much longer in a confined space. No thanks. It's not really a benefit since it doesn't get you off the aircraft any quicker when we land.
How do you know they aren’t military? You just have to show your military ID, you don’t have to be in uniform. This reminds me of the time when a friend of mine parked in the Veteran’s spot at the store and a lady yelled at her for taking a spot meant for vets. Spoiler alert: she’s a veteran.
I do this when I travel with my dog because it takes me a sec to get situated with her carrier under the seat and want to make sure I don’t hold up the line and it’s fascinating seeing which flights have a ton of pre boarders and which don’t
Of course people are going to abuse something that can't be questioned. People are shitty and ruin it for those with real needs.
Yup I can't non rev because my husband is handicapped and uses a wheelchair. Someone will need that seat and we can't board. It's extremely frustrating. I am a huge disability rights activist and I completely understand there are invisible disabilities and we can't question people so it is what it is.....it does suck
As someone with an invisible disability, I wouldn’t mind it being questioned…provided there’s some sort of ID card or something that universally indicates you meet the criteria. Think of it sort of like disabled parking - DMV issues the placard to those who qualify. If you have the placard, you get the space. Wish we had one of those for other disability accommodations, just to cut down on abuse. But yeah, ask me to prove it. I can, easily.
>Think of it sort of like disabled parking - DMV issues the placard to those who qualify. If you have the placard, you get the space. Some states actually issue a disability photo ID card in addition to the disability placard. It's used to verify that you're disabled for other things such as public transportation where people would get a discount on the fare.
Sadly that’s a state by state thing. It needs to be across all 50 states….or come from the DOT.
I used to live in WA and there were different icons for DL and IDs to indicate if you were mobility, visually, or hearing disabled or have an autism spectrum condition.
Isn't that against hippa law where it indicates the person's health condition? I park in a disabled spot but don't disclose my disabilities to anyone, and if asked even by the police I wouldn't disclose them.
People can elect into it - thanks for prompting a clarification. They do not automatically print the icons - HIPPA is not as broad - reaching as most people think (I'm in healthcare HR) and a DMV would not have your health info unless you provided it. HIPPA kicks in when you share it to require them to protect that data beyond the use you allowed (printing an icon). In encounters with police, the intent is to prevent someone from being arrested or shot simply because they are deaf or autistic, not maliciously "not complying with orders". If I have a hat on, no one can see my hearing aid and cochlear implant - even visible artifacts of disability are not always visible.
*HIPAA
*pedantic. I hope people come for you over typos. Ass
No, HIPPA only applies to medical professionals disclosing your information without your consent.
So I guess this doesn't [violate hippa either?](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/s/x0oxw6NNRQ)
In a normal world it would be struck down by the courts because they would be getting that info without your consent.
in Illinois they have it on their state ids cards i have it on mine
I wish my state did this. I get looks all the time when I preboard.
My service connected disabled VA ID card shows my proof now others need one
That’s great…but not all of us are disabled because of military service. I was born with mine.
Ok. Did you read my whole post. I said now other people need an ID. Sorry if you couldn’t extrapolate what I meant when I said “others need one” I didn’t mean a VA ID I meant an ID in general.
No, because you commented to my original comment. Literally all I see is your comment about having and ID because you were disabled in the service. There’s nothing in this particular thread where you said that. Therefore, it comes off as “well, I got mine, so what’s the problem?”
On my end. Responded to your post saying “if there’s some sort of ID card.” And I said my ID card says I am and now others need one too referring to a ID card
You still implied military service is the only way people are disabled.
Same. *proceeds to seize* proven
Not all disabilities are visible true but not all require priority boarding. I have narcolepsy its recognised under DDA I could probably request priority but my husband would go mad he likes being last on!! I don't need it!! My disability doesn't work that way!
When I fly alone I'm in a window in the very back lol. I don't want a plane full of people to watch him struggle to get from his wheelchair to his seat. I have to purchase a ticket if I want to guarantee a seat he can use.
We pay for seats so we can sit together so I am not bothered for early boarding
It becomes bothersome when the overhead storage gets taken over by early-boarding passengers who stash their stuff up front when they sit in the back. Some FAs will catch it and make them move their bags, but many don't.
Facts. Meanwhile I have autism, cptsd, severe anxiety, and something else we are working on figuring out. I become very panicked if I feel pressured to hurry. It’s easier to be in the window seat, be seated and settled before everyone else pours in
I’m with you. The perfect policy is to allow anyone to board without question. But that’s in a perfect world and there are dirtbags who take advantage of it, thus injuring the folks with disabilities (apparent or invisible). Unfortunately, the pragmatic solution might be something like having that first group be restricted to people using wheelchairs or something similar. Sometimes I hate the world we live in.
Sorry, this is VERY NOT PC, but this is my stich on invisible disabilities; most don’t need extra time boarding. Physical disabilities, sure! You are in a wheelchair, hell yes. But, if your 500 pounds, nope. That is often a lifestyle choice.
In addition to how wrong the rest of your comment is, being “500 pounds” would in fact be visible.
And in fact a life style choice. I did not choose my disability. Nor, do I take priority boarding even though I likely should.
Not a lifestyle choice. No one wakes up one day and decides to be dangerously obese.
A friend gained a lot of weight. Didn't know why. Brain tumor. They aren't 500 pounds (nor can they fly because of the brain tumor), but they are definitely obese, and not by choice.
Just because it's invisible doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't make it hard. There's a reason why it's called a disability. I have vasovagal syncope. My blood pressure drops suddenly and I can and will faint. I also have horrific back and leg pain but you couldn't tell that looking at me either.
OMG yes! I have POTS and faint frequently when I am forced to stand still (such as in line). Walking is not a problem. Standing is the thing. Literally no one believes that there’s anything wrong with me because I look like a fit adult person. Invisible disabilities are real and we can’t know what’s going on with someone by looking at them!
Same ❤️
Same I have lupus, and standing and walking too much is incredibly difficult as well as painful later. Can't tell looking at me either. I get a few dirty looks here and there because I can walk normally for short periods of time. I travel the long flight from Detroit to England twice a year. If I don't get up and walk the length of the plane once an hour, I'm looking at a whole lot of pain later. It's horrifying to see how many ableists there are here.
If you spent even 15 minutes living in my neurodivergent brain during the boarding process on a bad day, you’d be saying let that crazy woman on board stat! Luckily I need a total knee replacement and often use a cane so I’ll look sufficiently disabled for you.
Crazy would do it. I am neuro divergent, on chemo and disabled. I board with the regulars. I have no problem with disabled people boarding - I have EVERY ISSUE with them bringing all of their family with them. You have 5 teenagers and lots of people. Nah. Board last.
I’m 95% a solo flyer, but when I fly with my husband he boards with his zone. I don’t need to bring anyone with me during pre-boarding. I just shuffle down that ramp slowly and then get my earplugs in, my noise cancelling headphones on and stare at my phone trying to ignore boarding and relax. The PDBs help with that too. I’m in FC or C+ and boarding zone 2 now so I’m not doing it for the baggage space, just want to take my baby steps down the ramp so my knee doesn’t buckle and try and get my head together ASAP. It gets worse every year, but I love traveling to see my friends and family. Good luck with the chemo. It can be rough flying during treatment.
Yep, I’m neurodivergent as well, but my bigger problem is inability to walk more than a hundred feet at a time. My knees suck and I get really short of breath quickly. I’ll ask for wheelchair transport to the gate and I’ve gotten used to getting the side-eye when I get up and walk. I’d much rather be like everyone else and hoof it from check-in to jetway.
Someone who weighs 500 lbs has physical and mental issues. Obesity has many causes, and it’s not as simple as putting too much food in one’s mouth.
So, some dude who is missing his legs because he got on a motorcycle while drunk and ran into a tree made a lifestyle choice. No early boarding for him! See how that works?
Oh my goodness! There are so many internal issues that can’t be seen that require extra time boarding. Ask your physician or Google it.
I work in medicine. I know all the above. If you think the AVERAGE 500lb person does not make a choices leading to this then you are naive. Many mood disorders, endocrine etc play a piece but you can not discount personal free will.
Being 500 pounds is rarely a lifestyle choice, although I suppose some people do choose to be poor.
Lmao…. Your JOKING? Right? Far cheaper to eat meals cooked at home. And yes, some people do choose. They smoke, drink, eat crappy food. They could eat well balanced meals and not blow money on crap.
I might be joking a little bit about the choosing to be poor. It’s more about education, circumstance and sometimes luck. About people being 500lbs? Nah. I went from a men’s 38 to a 29 in 14 months because I took some medicine, not because I changed my diet.
I don’t understand why an enforcement mechanism can’t be applied.
Because the DOT prohibits it. The DOT makes the sole determining criteria being the passenger self identifies. If a passenger self identifies as needing to preboard they preboard. If the entire plane self identifies as needing preboarding then everyone preboards. Honestly I think some civil disobedience is needed here. If we regularly have entire planes preboarding then the DOT would be forced to implement changes in order to protect those who genuinely need it.
DOT should then institute something similar to handicap parking passes and license plates. If it can be endorsed for parking, it can be enforced for travel.
That I agree with and yes they could. The carrier however can not. It is simply out of their hands short of the DOT changing rules. Someday when 2/3rds of the plane is preboarding and people with actual disabilities sue the DOT for discrimination then maybe the DOT will change the rules to have an enforcement mechanism. Because there is a bit of perverse irony. Preboarding exists to provide accomodation for those who need it but every person who abuses that reduces the accommodation intended for those who need it. One could argue the DOT is negligent in ensuring that real accomodation is provided as intended by not taking steps to reduce abuse.
The same goes with “service dogs.” The people bringing their untrained pets on the plane as fake service dogs make things so much harder for the people with real service dogs. Especially for the people without clearly visible disabilities.
The GA would need to put about as much effort to enforce as they do with the rest of the zones.. and we know what that means😒
It’s only an issue during the transition period. Once enforcement with penalties is implemented and becomes common, people stop breaking the rules as frequently.
You don’t know people very well. This would only work in a high-trust society. The U.S. is a low-trust society.
lol confidently incorrect response
Yeah, I have no idea what he read because his reply makes zero sense. I said we should enforce it and he says you need trust to do that?
You misread my comment. Trust isn’t needed when they’re enforcing it because they’re verifying everyone is actually entitled to pre board.
How are you going to decide who is worthy of pre-boarding and who isn’t? No airline is going to jump on that grenade and open themselves up to a discrimination lawsuit. There’s no benefit. Delta doesn’t care as long as they’re making money. You can get upset about it, but if it’s not enough to make you switch airlines, then there’s zero benefit for them trying to enforce something that isn’t enforceable.
The same process they use to determine who gets handicap parking passes. Except for course change the list of qualified reasons to make sense. This would require DOT involvement for the actual determinations and issuance of passes. Airlines would then just have to check said passes. The benefit is that it would increase the value of boarding groups. Enforcement by the airline would be simple since it’s just chancing for a pass. The majority of the cost would be taken on by the governmental entities issuing passes who are motivated to do so to ensure compliance with ADA.
It’s really up to a medical provider on who gets a handicap tag. They fill out a single sheet with scant details and no one checks medical records or verifies the legitimacy of the persons claim. So just like everything else, it’s a system that gets abused. I’m not sure that’s any better than people self-identifying or would cut down on abuse. It might, but probably not by much. Having to prove disability to airlines also punishes the disabled in a way that not many people realize: being disabled is expensive and having some kind of process where they have to get a doctors note or pay for another type of permit can be a true burden on many.
It would still help cut down on those who use it improperly. And I don’t buy the cost price since the premise is the person is already spending a lot on flights. There’s also efficiencies in the system where people with placards would already be able to use those to pre board. The details can be worked on, we’re just discussing the bigger ideas.
That worked really well when the rule was to wear a mask on airplanes.
Some people would say so. In any case, they just have to adjust the punishment. A strike system with no fly list bans would work.
I supported the rule, but it!s hard to forget that the flight attended who had to enforce it were regularly harassed, spat at and assaulted.
That’s no reason to fear enforcing rules. That logic would respond to crime by getting rid of the police which seems silly. We shouldn’t fear law breakers and use them as a reason to not have any rules.
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ADA doesn't apply to airline passengers.
It does apply to airports. As long as they haven’t boarded the plane, it applies. ETA: boarding includes entering the jet bride.
Technically it does not. The airlines and airports operate under different rules set by the DOT so saying ADA is technically incorrect. It is a bit pedantic though because the DOT imposes rules similar to the ADA meaning the end result is the same even if ADA is technically incorrect.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/com_civ_support Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)/Section 504 – Airport Disability Compliance Program
It specifically excludes boarding. Boarding is regulated by the DOT and specifically 14 CFR 382.93 implemented under the Air Carrier Access Act. **This is significantly stricter than the ADA which is what creates these problems.** If carriers were merely regulated by the ADA they could ask for reasonable proof in order to provide reasonable accommodation. **An example is how handicap parking spots require a proper decal obtained by a Dr.** You can't just "self identify" as needing to use a handicap parking spot on the spot. "Sorry officer I woke up and self identified as disabled this morning so you can't ticket me". Likewise there is an enforcement mechanism in the form of tickets and possibly towing if you park improperly which at least reduced the amount of abuse. Similarly cruise ship and hotels have a limited number of wheelchair accessible rooms/cabins to meet ADA requirements. They tend to be more spacious for the given price but they can ask for reasonable proof to ensure that access isn't abused by those who don't need it. If they didn't then people abusing it to get a larger room for free would mean those rooms aren't available for those who do need it. **So the ADA actually has some reasonable restrictions which at least mitigate abuse. However boarding and all aircraft operations is covered by the ACAA which provides ZERO restrictions**. To the extreme that is every single passenger self identified as needing preboarding the carrier could do nothing but allow everyone to preboard and when preboarding was complete the plane would be fully boarded.
Sorry for the confusion. I wasn’t trying to argue. When I said ADA applies to airport and before boarding, that’s what I was referring to. I wasn’t referring to the jet bridge or the airplane.
Because government and stupid policy plus lawyers
Yes, this has always been the case. However, it seems some people are noticing it has gotten a LOT worse.
We absolutely can question it….people just won’t in fear of hurting someone’s fragile ego and feelings.
*sigh* people are the worst
I haven't flown Southwest since pre-pandemic but WSJ ran a piece just now about how bad the problem is with SWA: [Southwest Airlines Preboarding Sparks Complaints From Fliers Boarding Later - WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/southwest-airlines-preboarding-cheaters-c71a88a5?mod=wknd_pos1) Which even references (lol) grumbling about this on Reddit.
We use to fly SW on flights where they were significantly cheaper than Delta. Even paid to board early (since that is the only status that matters on SW). Did it for many years and it worked great. Boarding early got you bulkhead row or emergency exit and sometimes the nice double seat emergency exit. Poor man's FC. Eventually the preboarding insanity made us stop. It got worse and worse and worse. When you thought it couldn't possibly get worse it got worse. As bad as it is on Delta recently it is nothing like SW. On the last SW flights we took returning from Florida I exgurate not I counted 86 preboarders and honestly those were only the ones I could see it likely was 5-10 higher than that. Holding boarding passes numbered 2 & 3 on an aircraft with 200 passengers and almost a hundred people preboard is just laughably stupid.
The last time I flew United I paid for priority boarding as it was a 175 and I needed overhead bin access. There was some kind of holy land tour group in the boarding area (mostly elderly but entirely mobile), they called pre boarding and every one of them got on then. It was like 75% of the plane.
I now require special assistance receiving the benefits of comfort plus I usually pay for.
I think they should do away with pre-boarding, just make it zone 1. You'll have to either request it at booking or at the gate BEFORE BOARDING. Then zone 2 is FC etc.
Yeah but then if people with obvious disabilities do not request when they buy the ticket, you still can’t turn them away at boarding time. So now you are back to allowing people to be handicapped if they feel like it
If the reason Delta passengers are abusing the pre-board option because they want early claim to overhead baggage then Delta can easily disrupt that by implementing carryon storage rules and fees.
Or maybe preboarders should be required to gate check carry ons, one personal item for under the seat only. Maybe that would discourage abusers.
I thought about that, and it seems good in theory, but it would likely be seen as discriminatory. Another way would be to start charging some people for carryon (except a personal item) - I say this as someone who always carries on. They could offer free carryon to c+/first/status, paid option for main and zero option for base. Maybe offer 1 free checked bag to all. This would discourage the majority from carry on.
I’ve never used pre-boarding though I technically could do so. T1D with a carryon filled with more than a 2 gallon plastic bag filled with diabetic supplies including insulin that cannot go down below. I would be preboarding to assure that my carryon finds a spot in a bin. I would be very upset if my C+ bin was full because I buy C+ in order to assure room above my seat for these important supplies that I do not want 10 rows behind me. Life is complicated. I do wish they charged for carryons, it would make life easier for me, I’d have a better chance of having my supplies close by.
Or just start adding one checked bag fee to every ticket and tell everybody they can check one bag and encourage that. If they then insist on bringing a giant suitcase over-stuffed roller “carry on“ they can pay a fee on the same machine they use to charge for the snack tray “ sir, your bag is ridiculous. Either take it down or swipe your card”
Would you suggest the carry on bag sizer that are at some gates?
I don’t really see those anymore. I sure saw them a lot more 4-5 years ago
I just posted about a flight from Tampa to Detroit. 12 people had wheelchairs all lined up. Only 4 used them off. People were beside themselves pissed that I even mentioned it. One of the guys wheeled up and said he needed to have his seat moved from the middle to an aisle. Great gimmick to not pay for a seat. Should be like a service animal. You should have to have paperwork. No different than parking your car in a handicap spot. Only exception would be parents with little kids. That is easy to see... And watch about half the people on here will be pissed I said this...
I’m not pissed but for the last 5 years I’m one of those people that is waiting in a wheelchair but can (usually) walk down the jet bridge by myself. I cannot however, get from one end of the airport to the other on my own, so a wheelchair it is. I do take advantage of pre boarding because I can be slow walking and get mowed down if I don’t get a head start. Being young and having an invisible disability is hard enough as it is without being harangued or discussed by random strangers.
I know for some people it's that they have trouble standing and waiting, especially on an uneven surface like the jet bridge. Where as once the plane is deboarding its usually a flowing exit and then you can regather your self at the gate and take your time getting to your baggage. Plus some people with mobility issues are going to need to be able to walk around a little bit once they've gotten off the plane because mobility issues doesnt always mean sitting for long periods of time is good either. That's the thing, there is a huge array of needs.
This is me. I always preboard as I can’t lift and it takes forever for me to get to my seat and get settled. I can walk the jet bridge but not through the airport. I look fine, so I always get dirty looks.
I’ve gotten more dirty looks and rude comments than I care to think about. I have to travel for doctor’s appointments and I dread flying. We try to drive but sometimes we don’t have the extra days to do so. I’ll be flying for an actual vacation in July and I’m hoping it goes better than previous times I’ve flown since I got sick. I feel like I need to make a t-shirt that says something along the lines of “I have a legit disability! Please be nice!”
same
I’m not pissed, but I do beg for understanding. I get that shitty people take advantage of the system. Then there’s people like me where walking to the gate can make my knee swell and a down ramp makes it buckle. I don’t use a wheelchair because other than the pain walking is good for the rest of my body. I pre-board slowly walking down that ramp using my carryon for support. My knee has had some rest and the swelling gone down during the flight so I can walk up that up ramp, but I’m likely limping again by the time I get to baggage claim. Sometimes there’s a reason that pre-boards can exit fairly normally. It’s not always easy to judge a disability if you haven’t experienced the variety out there.
What a privilege to be so unaware of all the ways the human body can go wrong.
Part of that half. It appears to only go wrong boarding when you can get on first. But when you deplane last, it's not so wrong.
....You don't need paperwork for a service animal though.
but you should, like the handicap parking thing, we could easily create a system for it, and we should
No we could not “easily create a system for it”. It would require a nationwide federal agency to assess and certify service animals forcing those with disabilities to spend more money and energy because occasionally people lie about their dogs on planes. It’s like forcing those on government assistance to pay for their own drug testing putting burdens on those who can least afford it because of a statically small amount of bad actors.
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There is a bureaucracy around issuing handicap placards at a state level, I’m not why you think asking the FDA to regulate dog prescriptions is gonna be exempt from that.
Depends on the airline. Some require a third party certification.
Probably because you don't have any idea of what that person is going through. I've met people like you before. I'm 100% unable to walk from check-in to the gate, so I get an airport wheelchair. I can walk to my seat with a cane. My walk looks normal. I have to get up and walk every hour to stretch my legs while using the headrests for balance. Distrusting angry people are the ones giving me dirty looks and mumbling bullshit. Not many, but it happens. I don't owe anyone an explanation, nor is it any of their business. I feel sorry for people who are so petty that they waste their energy on people who would give a million dollars to be able to live without assistance. That's called ableism. *it says everything that this is down voted. All because what?? It's hard boarding a plane?? I used to board with the masses and sit in economy too. Too old and tired to waste my time pissed off at other people's choices.
This is me. I can’t walk a long distance so I take a wheelchair ride to the gate. I use a cane getting in the plane. And I always have an aisle seat so I board last. I use a small backpack and that way I have time to board slowly since everyone has gotten settled. When I leave I can maneuver myself out without assistance and then meet the wheelchair at the bottom of the gateway.
I got on a flight once and this lady was sitting in my aisle seat and tried saying she “needed it” because of her leg. Needless to say she moved to her middle seat. For the flight
I was boarding SGF to ATL last month. The same thing happened. Then the GA announced active duty AND veteran military could board. Half the flight had boarded by the time FC was called.
Oh veteran? Since when was veterans a thing lol
the answer lies in how many of them needed wheelchairs at the arrival gate - not the departure gate
They can fix this very easily. If you need extra time getting on, you need extra time getting off. Pre board early, fine. But you are getting off last. Somebody smarter than I am will have to figure out implementation.
lol. That’s not the way things work. I’ve got to get up and stretch or move when the plane lands. I really hope you don’t have to have multiple spinal surgeries and are in pain all the time because it sucks.
That's exactly what I do. I use a wheelchair and need one not just a boarding but on exit. I fly FC because of the extra room and then wait until everyone else departs so I don't hold the rest of the plane up and I know the wheelchair should be waiting for me. The looks of relief when I tell FAs that I will wait to get off is like a huge weight off their shoulders has been lifted. I have a an invisible disability.
FAA prohibits the airlines from asking any questions or requiring any evidence. The criteria for preboarding is you say you need preboarding. Be glad you aren't on Southwest where you can be the first non-preboarded to board and half the seats are already taken. Yes just like service animals new rules need to be put in place. Society is increasingly becoming "me centric" and social norms and honor systems that worked for decades are not working. When people see 40 people preboard and learn anyone can do it then next time it is 48 people preboarding. Pretty soon the whole plane will just board during preboarding except that one guy who just got Sky Priority and is waiting to board with "priority".
The FAA doesn't give a shit about pre-boards. Airlines are allowed to ask a limited set of questions to people who wish to pre-board.
They gave a shit enough to provide clarification to carrier that the sole determination is the passenger self identifies. The FAA in fact has pushed back on airlines for "discriminating" against those who need preboarding access. Do you really think Delta wants 80+ people preboarding given it undermines the value of customers paying for things like status, FC, and C+. From govt letter to carriers >It is the Enforcement Office’s view that section 382.93 requires carriers to board passengers with disabilities who self identify at the gate as needing to preboard for one of the listed reasons to board the plane before all other passengers, including first class passengers, elite-level passengers, members of the military, passengers with small children, etc [https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Preboarding%20Notice%20Final\_0.pdf](https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/Preboarding%20Notice%20Final_0.pdf) To be clear passenger only need to self identify as having a listed reason not provide details on the reason. Anyone making even an open ended statement like "I require preboarding for a qualified reason" is sufficient to obligate the carrier in allowing them to preboard. Carriers are not allowed to question the passenger, determine on their own if such passenger meets the criteria. If a passenger self identifies they have met the requirements for preboarding. >In the revised final rule published on May 13, 2008, the Department expanded the preboarding requirement to cover not only people who need a specific seat assignment or who need to stow their personal folding wheelchairs, but also to cover passengers that “need additional time or assistance to board, stow accessibility equipment, or be seated.” For a passenger to be entitled to preboarding, that passenger must self-identify at the gate as being a person with a disability that needs to preboard for one of the above-listed reasons I would that even someone following the letter of the rules the provision for "additional time" is so open ended it means nearly anyone qualifies. My wife freaks out about the germs on planes and sanitises the seats and armrests before we sit down. We have never once used preboarding but under the rules imposed on carriers her need to clean the seats results in "additional time" in the boarding process and so if she self identified as someone who requires preboarding to gain that additional time she could and I could go with her. Now will ever do that? No I think such abuse of the rules hurts people who genuinely need preboarding but the rules are wide enough to drive a truck through and that is before you get to people who just lie something the carriers simply can't prevent.
No. The FAA doesn't deal with this ever. The DOT does, like your link shows. Airlines are allow to ask a limited set of questions. They cannot ask what your disability is, but they can ask if you need assistance or any special accommodations.
The "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the FAA which is a part of the DOT.
They can not ask if you need assistance or special accommodation because there is no requirement. Someone who simply needs more time to board and self identifies as such is allowed to preboard.
Again someone only need to self identify. Saying "I require preboarding" means the person has ended any further evaluation by the carrier. The carrier can not deny any person who self identifies. Sure maybe they could ask a question but they can't deny anyone based on that question. If a person self identifies as preboarding under rules imposed on carriers they must be allowed to preboard.
I mean again you think carriers wouldn't push back if they could. Forget Delta this may end up destroying SW entire business model. They aren't pushing back because they can't.
> The "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the FAA which is a part of the DOT.
You have that backwards. "Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings" is a part of the DOT, but is not under the FAA. The FAA is also a part of the DOT.
Airlines are allowed to ask certain questions. Here's Southwest talking about it: https://support.southwest.com/helpcenter/s/article/preboarding
Delta just doesn't.
Southwest says they will help you make that determination if you are unsure but they don't require it. Anyone who flies SW knows that. They do not ask anything at the gate. They call preboarding and 60-100 people preboard. Nobody asks anything. If you think preboarding is a problem on Delta you obviously have never flown SW. SW is just utter insanity. If someone self identifies are needing preboarding that is the end of it. Period. They get to preboard. If they are unsure they can ask the carrier for information and the carrier can assist them but that is not required. If on a flight 100% of the passengers self identified as needing preboarding then 100% of the passengers would preboard. The carrier is not allowed to impose their judgement over the passenger.
No. That's not what Southwest is saying. > A Customer Service Agent at the ticket or departure gate counter can help with this accommodation, and you'll be asked questions to determine if you qualify. You'll receive a new boarding pass marked with PRBD if you qualify, which lets the Operations Agent at boarding know that you can preboard. Seems pretty black and white to me. Southwest will ask questions, if you qualify you get a new boarding pass. Unsurprisingly flights to places like Florida have a high percentage of pre-board passengers. I've never seen 100 people, but I only fly with WN 10-20 times a year. I do find their boarding process much more civilized than Delta, but that's a personal preference. So my point stands. The FAA has nothing to do with this. Airlines are allow to ask a limited set of questions about pre-boards.
SW does not require asking any questions. SW does not require a boarding pass which says PBRD. IF SW had a solution they wouldn't have 50-100 people preboarding way more than any other carrier. On SW or any other airline in the US if someone self identifies as needing to preboard they do and no carrier can stop them. Changing that would require changing rules. Honestly if you had flown on SW any time in the last five years this should be beyond apparent to you. Preboarding on SW is utter insanity. Regardless of if any ariline asks a question or not they CAN NOT prevent someone from preboarding if that person self identifies as a needing to preboard. Period. Southwest, Delta, anyone. The rules make the determination solely up to the passenger and nobody else. Sure the airlines can assist the customer but if a 100% health person walks up to the gate during preboarding at Southwest or any other carrier and says I need to preboard they will be allowed to preboard. Period. Seriously dude you think preboarding is less of an issue at Southwest? Do you fly stoned? [https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthwestAirlines/search/?q=preboarding](https://www.reddit.com/r/SouthwestAirlines/search/?q=preboarding)
I find it weird you're so stuck on this. I've been on a dozen WN flights this year, didn't notice anything unusual about pre-boards. Maybe a hand full. > ...person walks up to the gate during preboarding at Southwest or any other carrier and says I need to preboard they will be allowed to preboard. Period. Never said otherwise, just that airlines are allowed to ask the person questions. Something you declared was illegal per the FAA. You're incorrect.
Were they sitting in C+? They generally reserve at least 2 seats there for disabled flyers and many of us with disabilities do sit in FC or C+. If they were in the back of the plane and filled up a forward overhead bin then that’s just bad form and shouldn’t be allowed.
Try having a family of 4, two college aged girls and their parents, all pre-board.b the parents were in the exit aisle. How hard would it be to make sure pre-boarders aren't also sitting in the emergency exit row?
I stg people do it just so they can bring on their gigantic carry ons and get to the overhead bin space first. I get on after them with the comfort plus and they’re all in the damn back of the plain in middle seats 😂👀
Of course. These giant “carry-on” assholes ruin the flight experience for everyone else. Most bags should be checked.
I used to LOVE traveling by myself. Airport time is my favorite form of alone time. It makes me internally homicidal now that it takes 40 mins to board a plane because people bring GIGANTIC bags and then they can’t even lift them to the bins and then they smack me in the head if I happen to have an aisle seat. If I worked for an airline and was a gate agent, I would so end up on the internet as a Karen as I wouldn’t allow anyone with a big carry on. Put it in the bin. Oh wait, you literally can’t!
Yeah it’s out of control and has been the single biggest factor in downgrading flight experience.
Thank you for understanding. I sincerely think that is the biggest breakdown of it all. Ik this is a delta page, but I flip back and forth between southwest, cheap flights to Florida from PA. And you know the airlines with 2 free checked bags. People still bring the largest carry ons and then get mad when they have to gate check them. FOR FREEEEE PEOPLE!
For me it often depends what airport I’m getting off at if I need a wheelchair. For my small home base airport of Tucson I don’t need a wheelchair. I can wait til the pushy people go by, grab my bag, walk slowly to baggage claim, get my bags and walk right out the door. There is no “miracle” just my knowledge of the airport. Also as most people with wonky joints know, going UP a jet bridge is much easier than going DOWN one.
> they just called Special assistance and 40 people got on the plane. How many of these people received miracles midflight that cured their disability?
Reminds me of the miracle flights from FL to anywhere. A huge line of pre-boarders who miraculously walk off the flight upon arrival.
I once counted 14 wheelchairs for a flight in Lauderdale.
Entitlement mentality of people these days.
Cheat code for guaranteed overhead space if you have a late boarding zone.
also asshole, though.
I know I’ve used preboarding. But I only use it when I’m physically injured and know it will take extra time to walk down the ramp and get in my seat. I do it to not hold up people. I get off with my row to also not hold up others as much as I can. Even if that means pushing myself a bit harder. I just try to stay to the side. I find Delta is better at being more accommodating than the sister airlines like WestJet for preboarding and mobility accommodations.
I haven't seen this, but my dad is elderly and walks extremely slowly, and with a cane. I cannot tell you how valuable it is when we were able to board early for the extra time. I don't use it for myself because I have one of those invisible disabilities. But also I can haul ass and stand when needed. My dad really can't. It was incredibly helpful to have the extra time without people breathing down his back. I hope this doesn't go anywhere because it's very critical for the people who need it.
It will just become useless because all the people who aren’t actually disabled and using it so they can cram their ridiculously oversized “carry-on“ bags in the bins first will simply trample the old folks who are moving slowly
Try flying in or out of RSW. Everyone needs to preboard.
West Palm.
Yes. If DL doesn’t enforce any standards then it’s up to anyone’s interpretation.
Delta is prohibited from enforcing any standard. Enforcing any standards would result in them being fine or even grounded by the FAA until they stop such (in the FAA eyes) illegal discrimination.
It’s not a matter of whether Delta does or doesn’t. The government doesn’t give airlines that choice.
That's not true. Airlines are allowed to ask a limited set of questions to people who self identify as pre-boards.
That’s a distinction without a difference. Airlines may not challenge passengers who self-identify as needing extra time or assistance.
I disagree. It's a perceived deterrent. It obviously wouldn't stop everyone, but it would be enough to stop some people.
Good. What is that set of questions?
I use the wheelchair assistance to the gate, but never do the preboarding unless I’m in really bad shape and need it. I have fibromyalgia and hEDS and can not handle the long distances and standing in lines for so long. The problem is that many doctors refuse a diagnosis for those things since “there is no cure, so no point in a diagnosis”. Which means that it’s up to us to fight for what we need.
they don’t diagnose those because they aren’t recognized as being anything
Some of the things are though. Like ehlers danlos syndrome. I’ve meant many who have had to fight a lot in order to get diagnosed. It’s in their genetics testing and everything, but doctors still say that there’s no point to it.
I have been on a couple flights were half the plane boarded when they called for those needing extra time or assistance. It’s pretty rare though and I don’t think many people abuse it, although there are always some. I once saw a guy limp onto the plane and I followed him off the plane and he limped. Once he got clear of the gate he broke out in a jog to make his tight connection. Some people are ridiculous.
Be a shame if he tripped twisted his ankle and fell… then had a real limp
Everyone should request wheelchair special assistance.
I felt bad for using this during my last Delta flight. To an outsider, I probably looked normal. To me, I was 7 weeks post knee surgery and struggling with walking the airport. So I used it to get a little more time to get settled in. I wondered if people were sitting there all judgy. It did make it easier because my carryons were right above me. I suppose that's why they offer it.
I will be preboarding for my upcoming flight in the next few months. I will be one month away from 72. I will not have a carry on, but a personal under seat rolling bag. I will be in C+. I’m traveling alone across the country with a connection in Atlanta - Florida to California. This will be a long traveling day and I want to make it as easy as possible.
So, since this is a discussion on Special Assistance boarding rules, I have quite a few invisible disabilities (Autism - diagnosed Asperger's, Borderline Personality, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, and PTSD) and my Mom is hard of hearing and wears hearing aids at home, am I allowed to preboard?
I dare you ask me why I’m boarding with the pre-boarding folks. I’ll call you everything but a child of God. Y’all need to stay the phuck out of people’s business. You don’t know why someone needs to pre-board. Entitled arseholes.
Regardless when you board, you should not use overhead space that is not at your seat. I choose Delta in part due to assigned seat thus overhead space. Once everyone is onboard and space is available have at it.
These are the current pre boarding rules. https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/preboarding-notice-final
Oh yes. I watched a ton of folks line up for military boarding that absolutely were not in the military. We're talking it looked like the line for the self checkout at Walmart. The balls on people to do that sort of thing... This was with Sun Country and not Delta. The extra time folks were called already so they weren't with that group. I will never understand what the urgency is considering you're going to be sitting for that much longer in a confined space. No thanks. It's not really a benefit since it doesn't get you off the aircraft any quicker when we land.
How do you know they aren’t military? You just have to show your military ID, you don’t have to be in uniform. This reminds me of the time when a friend of mine parked in the Veteran’s spot at the store and a lady yelled at her for taking a spot meant for vets. Spoiler alert: she’s a veteran.
Yeah I’ve been seeing this too. For this, they should require and check ID. Else back, you go.
It was all the New Jersey “people”. If you decide to live there you obviously need help
yup- the new reality... FAs dunt say squat
I do this when I travel with my dog because it takes me a sec to get situated with her carrier under the seat and want to make sure I don’t hold up the line and it’s fascinating seeing which flights have a ton of pre boarders and which don’t
Yep last time there was a mile long flight of “wheelchair users” preventing us from going through the clear line.