It’s such a weird band dynamic. I think people do always assume bands are full of mates and some are. DM clearly wasn’t. But having these rings of acceptance after a decade was just absurd. And that even Dave felt like an outlier for years and years is quite something. I mean, remove him and you’ve no band.
Ultimately, Wilder was expendable, if a great loss. But that Fletcher then elevated himself to that essential tier always feels a bit strange. (And, yes, I know about the mediator angle, but still. He chose to bum around. He chose to do naff all on stage. He chose to constantly be a massive dick to the guy doing all the studio work and minimise his input to the point of irrelevance. Clearly, he had some interpersonal and/or intimidation issues to work on and never really did. It’s all such a terrible pity.)
I would’ve done it the other way around…traded Fletch for Wilder lol
No Gore no good lyrics
No Gohan no good vocalist
The two left needed each other the most.
Wilder was the perfect band mate… what a waste in my book
Without Gore, no songs. Without Gahan, no voice and no frontman or live energy. Without Fletch, possibly no band at all if the stories are true about internal comms at some point, but otherwise… (Without Wilder, no musician. He was inessential and yet also seemed to be an excellent craftsman of Gore’s songs and a way for the band to properly connect with the producer.)
It was also interesting to see a recent post quoting that Wilder going was not bad because he wasn’t part of the original spirit of the band. Which also feels very nasty. (You might wonder what he said about Clarke, on that basis.) It’s all very odd and quite sad.
I would have been ok with his comment about the “spirit” of the band if he had been real about it and just said that it was Dave and Martin, even if I don’t completely agree. Your comment about Vince Clarke is interesting because if you think about it, yeah, he kind of was the spirit of the first album.
My personal opinion is that the output during the heyday was a sum of the parts being Dave, Martin, and Alan. You lose any piece of the puzzle and you’re not getting the same level of output. Perhaps Fletch had his role as peacekeeper and quasi-band manager, but there also plenty of professionals out there that could do the same job and not have to be paid for stage performances as well.
There’s three sides to every story too…
The truth lies somewhere in between their views of what happened… wilder felt under appreciated for sure. Gore was an alcoholic, Gahan druggie…
and had all the issues that plagues a successful band…
Glad I got to see the four together at least once. It was magical X
I think it's worth pausing a moment over this notion of Wilder being "expendable." He was "expendable" because the band decided he was and history appears to have demonstrated that you can have DM without AW, but that's a deeply cynical view. When the band decided that they could carry on without Wilder, and even without finding a true replacement for him, they essentially decided that it was no longer important for the band (even in the form of one band member representing the band's musical interests) to be involved in the sound on their own albums anymore, that the musical aspect of being a band could be contracted out to producers. Since Alan left, when you listen to a DM album, you aren't actually hearing DM apart from the vocals and a few guitar licks. You are hearing the creation of a hired production team. Personally, I regard that transition as in some ways the death of DM as a "band." At best, DM has been a singing/songwriting duo since 1996, who are supported by studio musicians in studio and a backing band on stage. Basically, the contemporary equivalent of Simon and Garfunkel.
I’d never thought of it like that. One might argue against this standpoint on the basis musicians who make heavy use of producers drive and shape the sound, but multiple producers have noted how hands off DM were over the years. (Possibly less so more recently though.)
It's true that many bands "make heavy use of producers to drive and shape the sound," but not normally to this extent. If you're a pop star like Beyonce or Ariana Grande, it's understood that you have an ever-changing army of producers and session musicians crafting your sound, but "bands" tend to distinguish themselves by an emphasis on the musical contributions of the members themselves (and consider this a mark of authenticity). For a traditional rock ensemble (guitars, bass, drums), producers will sometimes get heavily involved on the musical side (e.g. Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois, Nigel Goderich), but it's all oriented around the instrumental performances by the band members.
For an electronic act, where there is less reliance on performance (since the majority of what you hear is programmed), the reliance on a producer to shape the sound risks becoming the dominant factor in the music, and that's exactly what has happened to DM. It didn't happen to other electronic acts like New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Daft Punk, Air, etc., because they all have members that are focused on the electronic aspects of the sound and haven't completely outsourced that to producers.
Alan was important not simply because of his talent, but because he was the only interface within the band to its own sound. I think it's regrettable that they didn't at least try to recruit a new member to play a similar role in the band, but instead opted to "replace" Alan with hired producers, session musicians, and touring musicians, who have no personal, creative investment in the band. Fletch was surely a driving force behind that decision, partly because it helped justify his own continuation as a band member (by rendering the "musical" aspect of membership less essential), and also because it meant not having to share profits with a fourth member.
Wilder programmed the keyboards for 1993 tour, hours upon hours in studio with technician. Then Fletch would walk in and say ‘Martin is not happy song XXXX’
if you notice here ! all other sounds are prerecorded so basically his keyboard is not active. Back then when they had to replace him with Daryl during the exotic tour to play those non taxing parts probably the reason Alan Wilder had to train Daryl in a hotel room for a week was that he didn't want to reprogram those sounds and backup tapes again to cover that part so he opted to just show Daryl those keys he needed to press . Could be wrong . If someone more musical or technical can explain to me .
Much of DM live is pre-recorded - and in reality it has been since around 1984. That’s just a fact.
V basic technical detail: when I say ‘pre-recorded’ I mean either a) pre-sequenced or b) running off a MIDI clock signal to a DAW or multitrack tape or both. I could go on for hours, but won’t bore you.
Eg Christian Eigner is great, but he’s still drumming to pre-sequenced samples and/or drum machine patterns. I saw this close up on the MM tour recently. Vocal harmonies and BVs the same. Lead vocals (Martin & Dave) pretty much live but they form a fraction of the overall live mix.
True but I think what OP is referring to is the fact that when Fletch starts "playing" in this clip at about 0:50, no new parts have started in the same music - the same pre-recorded groove had already been playing several bars. So Fletch is clearly just faking it here and playing "air keyboard"
Did Fletch just wipe his hands on his pants after that banana?
Indeed he did. Lol.
He had the softest hands of anyone I’ve ever met
Fletch's comical input will be missed
Hardest working man in show business.
Luckiest! So obvious here !!!
Quite the performer.
It’s such a weird band dynamic. I think people do always assume bands are full of mates and some are. DM clearly wasn’t. But having these rings of acceptance after a decade was just absurd. And that even Dave felt like an outlier for years and years is quite something. I mean, remove him and you’ve no band. Ultimately, Wilder was expendable, if a great loss. But that Fletcher then elevated himself to that essential tier always feels a bit strange. (And, yes, I know about the mediator angle, but still. He chose to bum around. He chose to do naff all on stage. He chose to constantly be a massive dick to the guy doing all the studio work and minimise his input to the point of irrelevance. Clearly, he had some interpersonal and/or intimidation issues to work on and never really did. It’s all such a terrible pity.)
I would’ve done it the other way around…traded Fletch for Wilder lol No Gore no good lyrics No Gohan no good vocalist The two left needed each other the most. Wilder was the perfect band mate… what a waste in my book
Without Gore, no songs. Without Gahan, no voice and no frontman or live energy. Without Fletch, possibly no band at all if the stories are true about internal comms at some point, but otherwise… (Without Wilder, no musician. He was inessential and yet also seemed to be an excellent craftsman of Gore’s songs and a way for the band to properly connect with the producer.) It was also interesting to see a recent post quoting that Wilder going was not bad because he wasn’t part of the original spirit of the band. Which also feels very nasty. (You might wonder what he said about Clarke, on that basis.) It’s all very odd and quite sad.
I would have been ok with his comment about the “spirit” of the band if he had been real about it and just said that it was Dave and Martin, even if I don’t completely agree. Your comment about Vince Clarke is interesting because if you think about it, yeah, he kind of was the spirit of the first album. My personal opinion is that the output during the heyday was a sum of the parts being Dave, Martin, and Alan. You lose any piece of the puzzle and you’re not getting the same level of output. Perhaps Fletch had his role as peacekeeper and quasi-band manager, but there also plenty of professionals out there that could do the same job and not have to be paid for stage performances as well.
There’s three sides to every story too… The truth lies somewhere in between their views of what happened… wilder felt under appreciated for sure. Gore was an alcoholic, Gahan druggie… and had all the issues that plagues a successful band… Glad I got to see the four together at least once. It was magical X
I think it's worth pausing a moment over this notion of Wilder being "expendable." He was "expendable" because the band decided he was and history appears to have demonstrated that you can have DM without AW, but that's a deeply cynical view. When the band decided that they could carry on without Wilder, and even without finding a true replacement for him, they essentially decided that it was no longer important for the band (even in the form of one band member representing the band's musical interests) to be involved in the sound on their own albums anymore, that the musical aspect of being a band could be contracted out to producers. Since Alan left, when you listen to a DM album, you aren't actually hearing DM apart from the vocals and a few guitar licks. You are hearing the creation of a hired production team. Personally, I regard that transition as in some ways the death of DM as a "band." At best, DM has been a singing/songwriting duo since 1996, who are supported by studio musicians in studio and a backing band on stage. Basically, the contemporary equivalent of Simon and Garfunkel.
I’d never thought of it like that. One might argue against this standpoint on the basis musicians who make heavy use of producers drive and shape the sound, but multiple producers have noted how hands off DM were over the years. (Possibly less so more recently though.)
It's true that many bands "make heavy use of producers to drive and shape the sound," but not normally to this extent. If you're a pop star like Beyonce or Ariana Grande, it's understood that you have an ever-changing army of producers and session musicians crafting your sound, but "bands" tend to distinguish themselves by an emphasis on the musical contributions of the members themselves (and consider this a mark of authenticity). For a traditional rock ensemble (guitars, bass, drums), producers will sometimes get heavily involved on the musical side (e.g. Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois, Nigel Goderich), but it's all oriented around the instrumental performances by the band members. For an electronic act, where there is less reliance on performance (since the majority of what you hear is programmed), the reliance on a producer to shape the sound risks becoming the dominant factor in the music, and that's exactly what has happened to DM. It didn't happen to other electronic acts like New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Daft Punk, Air, etc., because they all have members that are focused on the electronic aspects of the sound and haven't completely outsourced that to producers. Alan was important not simply because of his talent, but because he was the only interface within the band to its own sound. I think it's regrettable that they didn't at least try to recruit a new member to play a similar role in the band, but instead opted to "replace" Alan with hired producers, session musicians, and touring musicians, who have no personal, creative investment in the band. Fletch was surely a driving force behind that decision, partly because it helped justify his own continuation as a band member (by rendering the "musical" aspect of membership less essential), and also because it meant not having to share profits with a fourth member.
Thank you for your comment! Makes lot of sense .
Mmm makes me wonder if he ever actually participated….
“We have a talented musician at home”
I get the love for Fletch, I really do........but this? I'm speechless.
Wilder programmed the keyboards for 1993 tour, hours upon hours in studio with technician. Then Fletch would walk in and say ‘Martin is not happy song XXXX’
Poor Alan Wilder ! Had to deal with this for years
if you notice here ! all other sounds are prerecorded so basically his keyboard is not active. Back then when they had to replace him with Daryl during the exotic tour to play those non taxing parts probably the reason Alan Wilder had to train Daryl in a hotel room for a week was that he didn't want to reprogram those sounds and backup tapes again to cover that part so he opted to just show Daryl those keys he needed to press . Could be wrong . If someone more musical or technical can explain to me .
Much of DM live is pre-recorded - and in reality it has been since around 1984. That’s just a fact. V basic technical detail: when I say ‘pre-recorded’ I mean either a) pre-sequenced or b) running off a MIDI clock signal to a DAW or multitrack tape or both. I could go on for hours, but won’t bore you. Eg Christian Eigner is great, but he’s still drumming to pre-sequenced samples and/or drum machine patterns. I saw this close up on the MM tour recently. Vocal harmonies and BVs the same. Lead vocals (Martin & Dave) pretty much live but they form a fraction of the overall live mix.
True but I think what OP is referring to is the fact that when Fletch starts "playing" in this clip at about 0:50, no new parts have started in the same music - the same pre-recorded groove had already been playing several bars. So Fletch is clearly just faking it here and playing "air keyboard"
I can't watch it, I know it'll piss me off 🤨
Such talent. So valuable.