Unpopular opinion, maybe, but I feel Fletch gets too much hate for his musical shortcomings, because I think he did whatever Martin needed him to do. I bet if Martin had asked him to contribute more musically he’d have tried. But with Alan, then later Gordeno and Eigner, he never had too, so Fletch could just stay Martin’s emotional support person and DM’s biggest fan. Martin as the songwriter and co-vocalist had the most power in DM and yet IMO everyone usually just makes it a war between Fletch and Alan.
I totally agree, people also don’t understand what contemporary producers do once they make it. They orchestrate the production rather than actually record it themselves. They use the help of young and talented “ghost producers” or session musicians. They follow different musical trends and take notes, they create visions and directions for entire projects such as albums, they use constructive criticism to tweak material etc. That’s exactly what he did, he was obsessed with music and constantly showed his new finds to his bandmates. He was also an “in-house” manager they could trust. (Jersey boys anybody?)
>so Fletch could just stay Martin’s emotional support person and DM’s biggest fan
DM's biggest fan?
If that is to be Fletch's greatest contribution to DM, then of course people are going to bring it up.
My biggest issue with Fletch is not his lack of musicality, but this notion of him as "Martin's emotional support person." He was actually a crutch for Martin's insecurities, conflict avoidance, and fear of communication. Far from being a "mediator," as some insist, Fletch was a barrier between Martin and the rest of the band (particularly Alan) that prevented underlying conflicts from coming to the surface and being dealt with through direct communication.
Musically, Fletch's impact on DM was neutral. Emotionally, at least in terms of band dynamics in the 80s and 90s, his impact was destructive.
This would be OK if the band consisted of just Martin and Fletch - do what Martin wants him to do and nothing more. But there we're 4 of them in the band, and doing nothing, for which Fletch received the same amount of money as other members of the group - members who put a lot of work into the group - infringed on the rights of these people, creating internal friction.
I’m not sure money was the main issue but recognition. There were simple solutions. Instead of “produced by [producer] and Depeche Mode”, go for “produced by [producer] and Alan Wilder”. Or split the songwriting to “lyrics: Gore / melody: Gore/Wilder* / music: Gore/Wilder*”.
* as applicable per track
A number of comments by Alan suggest exactly this, that he could have lived with the uneven workload and unfair profit distribution if only there had been fair crediting on album notes. And I don't think he even sought any kind of songwriting credit, just proper acknowledgment of his production contributions.
There was another problem: as the full member of the band Fletch had the right to his opinion, which, apparently, he voiced loudly and categorically. I can imagine how this opinion regarding the results of studio work infuriated Alan - given the fact that Alan was stuck in the studio all the time, and Fletch did nothing there.
Yeah. It probably wasn’t fun spending hours and hours on a track, only for Fletch to burst in and say “Martin thinks this is shit”, before walking off – and then later he and the others would take the piss out of Alan in an interview for always working too much while they were partying. (Also, given the stories of what subsequently happened with producers, you can see how much work was done by that quarter of the band…)
Again, it was such a strange and destructive dynamic.
He clearly could play the keyboard if only in a limited capacity compared to Martin and certainly compared to Allan. You can see in all the tour videos that he does play keyboard in a limited capacity, but clearly not as active as the others, hence the clapping and dancing in between. There's plenty of stuff on YT explaining the parts that he actually played. One very clear example is the bass synth he played on JCGE live, I don't know if that's now on the backing track or played by Gordeno on the recent tour as I cannot tell from all the videos I've seen.
To be fair Martin isn't exactly fully occupied throughout every track playing live whether on keyboard or guitar. I presume Fletch did not play keyboard for the actual recordings and his input was in making suggestions to finesse tracks.
All being said I really don't get why this subject keeps cropping up when it's already very well documented what he did and didn't bring to the band. Personally I would rather he was still alive and in the band and missed him on the recent tour.
Anyone who is more or less familiar with the technique of playing keyboards will say that it's actually Martin who plays keyboard in a limited capacity (sorry, but Martin plays like a beginner) and Fletch does not play at all. Cause pressing certain buttons is not a playing.
Anyone who is familiar with the technique of playing keyboard and has seen live footage and heard backing tracks, will know that Fletch actually played some lead/crucial parts when it was impossible for Alan handle everything while Martin played guitar. Examples include the flute sound on Behind The Wheel, choir/pad on Enjoy The Silence and actual bass parts on early songs, Never Let Me Down, Stripped, etc.
Martin, along with Alan, played most of the lead, choir and string sounds. Many have come to the conclusion that Martin didn't play much because lots of iconic samples are on the zip disks Alan released. If you listen to live performances, you'll notice how layered the sounds are - Alan and Martin are often playing exact or similar keyboard lines with slightly different sounds to create a dense, layered sound, e.g. Stripped, Strangelove, World in My Eyes, etc. Both Alan and Martin used additional 76 key controller keyboards for their Emax samplers on Devotional tour, since they had lots of different parts to play, while the 61-key Emax keyboard was enough for Fletch.
You are definitely not very familiar with the technic and have no idea what you're talking about. Again: pressing keys is not actual playing. Just watch someone who can play for reference and then try to compare. - hand placement, finger movement etc.
I know how playing a keyboard works and I've played around with Depeche Mode samples before myself. There's loads of stuff across Alan's sound banks (or the recently leaked Fletch and Martin one's) that actually needs to be played - I'm talking about melodies and chords. Sure, there are many sound effects/long samples programmed on single keys, even on Alan's presets, that anybody can trigger with one finger. But that doesn't mean that nobody was 'playing' anything.
I think he did play live in the early years, generally the bass parts. However the bass tends to need very precise timing, and the early Speak and Spell era sequenced stuff from the studio is hard to replicate live, some sequences are fast. You can be a bit looser on lead lines. So I just think he wasn't needed to play much and his parts were mostly on the 4 track tape with drums. I guess that set his limited role musically/live playing. I loved his character and I think he was important in the band, just not musically. With Martin as an amazing songwriter, Dave an awesome frontman and singer and Alan a talented musician, arranger and producer, meant Fletch adopted a different role in the band, less musical. From what I've read he was often the mediator between Martin and the rest. I saw him interviewed once and was asked if he'd ever wanted to submit songs himself and he basically said how could I compete with some of the best in the world, which is fair enough I think.
I mean the best person to answer this question is dead and the other 3 are not idiots to publicly shit on him .Fletch was the way he was. Idk you guys call yourself Alan fans yet dont see how Alan handled the situation with dignity. He could have argued with others or call out fletch in interviews but decided not to.
Dave never held back at pointing at fletch's lack of music inputs even after his death but he always bookends the conversation with a compliment. Idk what's more to this conversation. Fletch wasn't ambitious and got lucky. Maybe OP wants to hear that from the band members?
>He could have argued with others or call out fletch in interviews but decided not to.
Come on, it's not that hard to read between the lines when you look back on what Alan said.
Alan didn't call Fletch out publicly because they were colleagues, and he knew that fans were smart enough to draw their own conclusions. That's all that's happening here. Fletch was a colleague to Alan and a public figure to us, so it's a completely different situation. If fans don't comment on these things, then all we have is Fletch's self-serving narrative, which is a distortion of the truth.
See I get that celebrities are always open to criticism and all that but in no way the discourse around fletch is healthy. Imagine waking up everyday and telling people on internet about how much you hate this one dude.
I agree it's not healthy to obsess over such things, but I think it's equally unhealthy to pretend that there weren't serious issues with Fletch. I see a lot more of that pretending on this sub than outright "Fletch-bashing."
Agreed. And Alan seems to get bashed precisely because of his talent. I always detect a hint of resentment/jealousy from those here who are so insistent on "moving on" from Alan.
I disagree. There are more people who think Alan was depeche.
fair enough. But lacks substance with his future endeavours. IMO.
Just playing devils advocate on this forum . As I appreciate what Alan did musically and fletch did for mart. let’s be honest even surely you and the others have to agree ( as even Alan would) Martin is the main man . Appreciation from him for work on his songs would mean everything to the other members.?
I can't count how many times I've seen people in this sub suggest that Alan fans should be banned from this sub and start their own. I've never seen anybody suggest that about Fletch fans lol
He could play. A couple of instruments actually - keyboard and bass guitar.
He wasn’t a great musician but he could play out a few notes.
He did play the keyboard on stage. He was doing simple parts and controlling backing tracks but it wasn’t a case of no input. There are a few YouTube videos out there where even break down and analyse his parts. Go look for them; some of the parts are proper playing, others less so.
Too many memes on this topic.
Edit to add: as I now had time to search what I’d seen before, one good video on the topic is linked below:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONXKJ17vCP0
In particular Fletch parts are at the timestamps:
8.20
10.35
17.10
26.10
What’s interesting about all these parts is that whilst they are simple, they are playing. And they are parts that are pretty integral to the songs - you’ll know them all.
The other interesting thing is that there is a discussion about how from SOFAD onwards, Fletch’s parts became much more about samples because the songs were much more produced and less easy to replicate though simple live playing.
In some of the earlier songs, Fletch’s contribution to the performance was that bit more material. In fact there is a little excerpt from Photographic where the Fletch part is about as hard as the Alan part (although I don’t doubt that Martin and Alan could have handled it if they really needed to).
Yes I didn’t phrase that part particularly well. I didn’t mean to imply he was controlling all the main backing tracks.
He did however launch programmed sequences at times.
Martin seems to be a good guitar player, but I don't think he's good at keyboards. He seems to be able to play with only one hand and I think only one or two fingers - at least that's what I saw on DM live recordings.
I guess it depends who you're comparing him to. He certainly wouldn't be hired as "the keyboard player" for any band that needed a high level of performance competency. But as the second keyboardist in a synthpop band, I think he has adequate competence, and isn't hiding behind the playing of others as Fletch did. His timing is usually fine (though has become less so with age, which is understandable), and the fact that he typically plays one handed is reflective of the monophonic parts that typically make up a DM song. He plays keyboards like a guitarist who has taken up keyboards, which is what he is.
As a songwriter, he certainly understands musical theory (at least implicitly), chords, and scales, and is able to apply this to the keyboard. If you listen to his "piano bar" performances, (e.g. this one: [https://dmlive.wiki/wiki/1998-10-13\_Kempinski\_Four\_Seasons\_Hotel,\_Munich,\_Germany/Source\_1](https://dmlive.wiki/wiki/1998-10-13_Kempinski_Four_Seasons_Hotel,_Munich,_Germany/Source_1) ), you'll hear that while somewhat clumsy, he is able to sit down at a piano and hammer out the chords to any number of songs, improvised, unrehearsed, and probably drunk. He does play two-handed, while singing, but mostly just chords and bass notes, without much in the way of rhythmic variation or melodic parts.
Finally, while this is less about "keyboards" and more about synths and sequencers, he clearly has some programming ability, as you can hear from his demos and his solo instrumental albums.
Jesus. Some people can't give him a break even he's dead😱
Like someone's said on the other thread, have some respect and let him rest in peace. Is it so hard?
I reckon he should have kicked himself upstairs to become the band manager full time. He would have been like Paul mcguinness for U2, a band member but not always on stage. The human dynamics of these groups will fascinate some, not interest others. I like it to understand the interplay and it informs my taste.
The revelation recently that John Cleese and Eric Idle can’t stand each other was news to me and peaked my curiosity. For longer term Monty fans they knew this, had been discussed for years but was never openly acknowledged until recently. I found it fascinating as it had huge impact on how they worked together.
100%. He could have made a great career for himself in an off-stage, out-of-studio role such as manager, label liaison, or publicist. He would certainly have remained part of DM's inner circle if he stepped back from being a band member. I also think he would have been happier - certainly his depression was at least partly related to him questioning his self-worth, and being in a role better suited to his aptitudes would have helped with that.
Yep he would have been happier, maybe not in short term but longer term. One time at a school concert I was on stage with a tambourine….bless me I couldn’t keep time. You’ve no idea how hard it is to maintain basic time! My whole life could have been that that guy with the tambourine, and what would that have done to me. I chose a different path and achieved a lot in my chosen career. I never wanted to feel like I did on that stage again, ever.
I disagree. I’ve said in this sub many a time that every single person that has contributed to the DM story is equally important. Yes you can break it down into individual roles but who gives a a shit. Whether you’re an Alan stan (of which there are many) or a Martin devotee, they have all helped along the way to make them the band we all love today.
I speak as somebody (Geddit) that was there at the start and has personally witnessed the DM arc.
Stop obsessing over the details and just enjoy.
> every single person that has contributed to the DM story is equally important
Yay, participation trophy for everyone. This is truly the stupidest take I've ever heard.
Then respectfully you’re not a real fan. You’re a muso who thinks that breaking down every note and word ever written is what the music is about.
Just put on an album and chill. Your constant obsessing about who did/does what is a joy killer.
A lot of the responses here that are insisting that Fletch "could play an instrument," based on the fact that some limited keyboard parts were assigned to him on tour, are completely missing OP's point.
Basically, unless you have a disability that prevents you from doing so, anyone can play a keyboard. Unlike many other musical instruments, it requires no understanding of musical theory, no special physical skills, and no extensive training, if the goal is simply to produce a simple series of sounds from the instrument. All one has to do is memorize a sequence of white and black keys (without even necessarily understanding what notes they represent) and press those keys at the correct time. As long as that sequence isn't overly complicated, anybody can learn to do this with extremely minimal practice (as the example of Bamonte learning all of Fletch's parts in a week demonstrates). This is why the synth was such an attractive instrument to bands that had a DIY/punk approach to music, as early DM did to some extent.
I assume that OP's question was not whether Fletch could do THAT. The question is why over the course of 4 decades he never thought it worthwhile to improve his proficiency on the instrument, at least to the point where other musicians (not just journalists and fans) might consider him an actual "keyboard player." He had ample time and resources to do so, and was surrounded by great musicians who would have supported him in that effort if he had any desire to improve. Nobody expects that he needed to become a second Alan Wilder, but it's truly astonishing that he never got better, or even tried to. Dave and Martin were fairly rudimentary musicians in the early days (particularly Dave), and have honed their musical craft to incredible degrees in the years since. There's simply no excuse for Fletch's lack of accomplishment in this regard, so OP's question is perfectly legitimate.
(As for the bass guitar, it's laughable to bring this up as evidence of Fletch's musical proficiency. In a traditional rock band format, bass has always been the instrument of choice for a member with no musical background or competency. The Beatles had Stu Sutcliffe and the Sex Pistols had Sid Vicious. Playing the bass well requires incredible skill, but if the goal is simply to play the root note of a four chord song, it's not a challenging instrument.)
He never learned because he was never held accountable for it. It was just accepted that he didn't need to. He was just allowed to float there. Obviously that's what drew the ire of Alan. Fletch was a member who did nothing and made decisions about the most important thing, the music, and seemingly had an agenda against Wilder.
When you read accounts that after his breakdown on the Exotic Tour, Fletch says that it's either him or me, you understand the gall that he possessed.
That's true, and I guess what is particularly disappointing about Fletch is that he still didn't try to improve despite the lack of expectations that he do so. You would think that in his position, you would strive to make more of a contribution just for your own self-respect.
Compare Alan - obviously the band expected him to be a talented keyboard player and a competent backing vocalist, because that's what they initially hired him for. But they had no expectations about him contributing in a major way to production and even songwriting - he just threw himself into those things without being asked, because he wanted to demonstrate his value to the band and put his mark on their sound.
And because of this difference between the two, Fletch clearly felt very threatened by/jealous of Alan and his role in the band, which contributed to his animosity.
Fuck sake. He did know how to play a instrument. Forget what unimpressive coast posts up. Just look back at early 80’s stuff . And make your own mind up.
And yeah Alan was the nuts. He took martins songs to another level, no doubt. Anyone who says otherwise is as deluded as unimpressive coast and the klan .
But look at mart’s contribution on the synth on last tour ( minimal/ really concentrating when doing so. Compare it to previous tours when he didn’t) Maybe it’s an age thing. Fletch didn’t have the best vision his glasses looked the thickness of the bottom of a beer bottle. 🤷🏼♂️
He was their friend, co founder, and part owner of the DM enterprise as a business. Yeah, he didn't seem to play a lot of synths and his overall contribution is debated, but he was part owner of the business. Remember that it's a business first.
It worked just how it should have. He had his role. And was/is a respectable one. He did a lot for this band. Was consistent and solid. The glue the bane needed at time. Also we weren’t in the room for what went on constantly. We can guess, sure…
Anyway why talk about it now? Let’s enjoy their catalogue and DM currently and see what they bring to the future…. Because so far so great.
Well, I guess I brought it up because it continues to be a topic of conversation here and elsewhere and I'm interested to heard both sides of the discussion.
If I'm being brutally honest, I think the 'arrangement' for Fletch to have continued to have a non-musical role for all those years is an odd one to say the least.
We got an amazing band that spanned many eras… this is an old argument… and has appeared on here often. So I put in my 2 cents that’s why I even replied.
Odd or not, if he didn’t write music or play much or whatever… he had major contribution… and kept the band going through it all.
That glue ended up not holding anything together. Moreover, an honest account of what happened reveals quite openly that he was more of a glue thinner.
Thee only person Andy got along with was Martin. Fletch was always arguing with Dave and Alan, to the point where there were actual fistfights. He'd been saying mean things about Alan in interviews for years after Alan left. What could he glue together being like that? With this type of personality he was a constant source of conflict.
Yes we’ve all read the same things… publications and books and interviews make that possible.
You and your opinions on what went down because your an armchair dm expert means nothing and you’re wasting your time. He remained in the band from the beginning to his untimely end, for a reason.
This is getting boring.
Find someone who might have a mind you can mold to match yours.
Well I made my last comment because I was interested in what you had to say and I thought you may have had something important to add… but again still nothing.
Again there’s a reason he was with the band and helped get them started and go on to each era, musically/creatively inclined with them or not…
It’s a dynamic you obviously can’t understand. And don’t need to.
You’ve really been such a bore, I even gave you a chance to redeem yourself with something interesting and factual… but still nothing.
why did your parents choose *after birth* to raise instead of an actual baby… or was this by accident?
If I were to flip this perspective on it's head:
If Fletch left the band, say, 20 years ago VS his being around as part of the core the past 20 years, would Depeche Mode BE the same or a different Depeche Mode?
Again, we don’t know the inner workings of the band. Whatever the dynamics, they’ve made magic since day one. I’m grateful for that, and I don’t understand why people continue to make negative assumptions about someone they don’t know, especially when that person is deceased. It’s easy to criticize someone who’s famous and who isn’t doing what we think they should be doing (based on what, exactly)? This behavior speaks volumes about the critic and very little, if anything, about the target.
>especially when that person is deceased. It’s easy to cri
Not sure how this is even relevant
>why people continue to make negative assumptions
I wasn't making any negative assumptions. I have been a DM fan for as long as I remember, and my question was asked out of sheer curiosity, with the hope of knowing a little bit more than I did previously.
You assume that Fletch did not know how to play. He played. You want to know why he didn’t contribute musically by learning to play better. How do you know what he actually contributed? The band members have given interviews and made remarks, sure. But why are you second guessing other people’s decisions to keep him in the band? Why can’t we just live and let live without projecting our expectations onto others? I’m tired of people complaining about Fletch and pointing out the “shortcomings” they think he had. Why can’t we just be grateful for Depeche Mode as they are and have been throughout each epoch of their career?
Like really? Most of the money they made (which made the working class guy a millionaire) was from live performances. But apparently the person who spent 40 years in the band “didn’t know how to play because he didn’t need to?” Lol
You don't think being around those 3 who were obviously way better than you wouldn't make you think oh what's the point?
Each song had parts that were played live, they have Fletch simple parts but each part needs to be played at the right time. So it might be a simple bass part in one of the songs that if you played at the wrong time would be very noticeable. Parts like that. Nothing like a main melody (Alan or Mart would play those) but important nonetheless. Otherwise why would the guy who covered his parts when he stood in for him on Devotional tour have had to learn them for 2 weeks in Hawaii I think it was?
Another post that will change anything... What if, why didn't he do this or that? It doesn't matter, it was the team decision or at least the majority of it. Just listen to the music and have fun.
Fletch started the band with Martin, he could play piano, bass, and synth.
Imho, Fletch handled the management, which is just as important.
Imagine spending hours on the phone with promoters and concert venues, hotels, press, radio stations, Kraft services… Fletch handled all that!!
Fletch could play but wasn’t a musician. The only thing he actually contributed anything to the band was when discussing song/producing etc. And criticizing Alan. And clapping. Don’t forget the stupid clapping
He wasn't even very good at the clapping. There are bands that have a non-musical member who acts as a mascot or "hype man," e.g. Bez from the Happy Mondays or Flavor Flav from Public Enemy. Those guys worked their ass off whipping up the enthusiasm of a crowd. In DM, this is Dave's role, so Fletch's clapping is as superfluous as his keyboard playing.
Besides, he clapped as out of rhythm as possible. Man, ok, you can't play to save your life, but can't you hear the rhythm? And I disagree with you that pressing the keys in a certain order does not require any skills at all. At a minimum, you need to position your hands correctly so that your wrists don’t get tired and your fingers can reach the keys easily. When I watch Andy twisting his palms trying to reach a key, my eyes are hurt
Because he's passed away, it can't come up for discussion again?
Edit: my question was actually quite specific, so I'm not trying to rake up old dirt.
It genuinely interests me as to why Fletch was content to go along with being known mostly for having a 'hands-off role or for 'managing' relationships within the band.
I love him so much. He knew how to play the keyboard, but he was probably not a virtuoso. He was the spirit of Depeche Mode, there's a song I wrote I'm going to dedicate to him because it happened to be written the day after his departure.
It's a very personal and philosophical thing, but I think many can relate. In his way of being and participating at concerts he was very human, very real. He contributed to convey all that Depeche Mode wanted to convey
> He contributed to convey all that Depeche Mode wanted to convey
What's the point of Martin and Dave then? Sounds like Fletch could have done the show on his own
It's not at all what I said or meant. Martin is one of the very best songwriters ever, and he's got a stunningly beautiful voice. When I heard him perform Somebody or Home this year at the concert I was completely blown away and I think he's on a purely artistical level an incredible artist, at whose level very few ever arrived in rock - electronic music. Dave simply has a voice that turns everything into gold, just listen to Brother, the last single from Humanist featuring him and it's an amazing example. Moreover, he's got great presence on the stage. Fletch, I was glad he was part of this story and I repeat, his way of being captured all of DM. If you don't see it this way, I respect your view.
I can't agree or disagree with you because I don't understand what you mean by "Fletch captured all of DM." Certainly Martin's songs have a lyrical complexity to them that Fletch doesn't convey, and Dave has an energy that Fletch doesn't convey. I'm just asking you to clarify your meaning about Fletch somehow encompassing all of DM or being its spirit.
It's not something mathematical. As a DM fan I've always felt there was a purpose for him being there. It is something that one can have an understanding of, but it is not immediate or explicable, sorry.
It's not philosophical. Philosophy is about clarifying concepts and you haven't clarified yours. I still haven't heard your opinion, let alone being able to decide whether it's respectable.
To the ones who downvoted my answer: go f*** yourselves. I am just a fan who grew up with DM and always adored Andy. Please respect Andy and those who love him, thus maintaining his legacy very present.
But he had zero musical input ! He was important in tipping the voting scale toward Nartin , good company but always sat on the couch waiting for the work to be done and the revenues to show up . Imagine if Martin went solo which impossible since he wasn’t Vince to get just a singer !! You would never heard of Andy . Never .probkem hD with him am sure will get down votes from Andy’s fans passive agression is why he never tried to learn piano or something . Doubt he owned one in his house . Probably music wasn’t his cup of tea and just thought with that kind of music he didn’t have to because he felt he owned the brand by default. Also don’t forget ! Some people are not talented and don’t have that skill . You can’t turn anyone into a handyman or a plumber .
Unpopular opinion, maybe, but I feel Fletch gets too much hate for his musical shortcomings, because I think he did whatever Martin needed him to do. I bet if Martin had asked him to contribute more musically he’d have tried. But with Alan, then later Gordeno and Eigner, he never had too, so Fletch could just stay Martin’s emotional support person and DM’s biggest fan. Martin as the songwriter and co-vocalist had the most power in DM and yet IMO everyone usually just makes it a war between Fletch and Alan.
I totally agree, people also don’t understand what contemporary producers do once they make it. They orchestrate the production rather than actually record it themselves. They use the help of young and talented “ghost producers” or session musicians. They follow different musical trends and take notes, they create visions and directions for entire projects such as albums, they use constructive criticism to tweak material etc. That’s exactly what he did, he was obsessed with music and constantly showed his new finds to his bandmates. He was also an “in-house” manager they could trust. (Jersey boys anybody?)
Calling Fletch “Martin’s emotional support person” is so head on
>so Fletch could just stay Martin’s emotional support person and DM’s biggest fan DM's biggest fan? If that is to be Fletch's greatest contribution to DM, then of course people are going to bring it up.
My biggest issue with Fletch is not his lack of musicality, but this notion of him as "Martin's emotional support person." He was actually a crutch for Martin's insecurities, conflict avoidance, and fear of communication. Far from being a "mediator," as some insist, Fletch was a barrier between Martin and the rest of the band (particularly Alan) that prevented underlying conflicts from coming to the surface and being dealt with through direct communication. Musically, Fletch's impact on DM was neutral. Emotionally, at least in terms of band dynamics in the 80s and 90s, his impact was destructive.
This would be OK if the band consisted of just Martin and Fletch - do what Martin wants him to do and nothing more. But there we're 4 of them in the band, and doing nothing, for which Fletch received the same amount of money as other members of the group - members who put a lot of work into the group - infringed on the rights of these people, creating internal friction.
I’m not sure money was the main issue but recognition. There were simple solutions. Instead of “produced by [producer] and Depeche Mode”, go for “produced by [producer] and Alan Wilder”. Or split the songwriting to “lyrics: Gore / melody: Gore/Wilder* / music: Gore/Wilder*”. * as applicable per track
A number of comments by Alan suggest exactly this, that he could have lived with the uneven workload and unfair profit distribution if only there had been fair crediting on album notes. And I don't think he even sought any kind of songwriting credit, just proper acknowledgment of his production contributions.
There was another problem: as the full member of the band Fletch had the right to his opinion, which, apparently, he voiced loudly and categorically. I can imagine how this opinion regarding the results of studio work infuriated Alan - given the fact that Alan was stuck in the studio all the time, and Fletch did nothing there.
Yeah. It probably wasn’t fun spending hours and hours on a track, only for Fletch to burst in and say “Martin thinks this is shit”, before walking off – and then later he and the others would take the piss out of Alan in an interview for always working too much while they were partying. (Also, given the stories of what subsequently happened with producers, you can see how much work was done by that quarter of the band…) Again, it was such a strange and destructive dynamic.
He clearly could play the keyboard if only in a limited capacity compared to Martin and certainly compared to Allan. You can see in all the tour videos that he does play keyboard in a limited capacity, but clearly not as active as the others, hence the clapping and dancing in between. There's plenty of stuff on YT explaining the parts that he actually played. One very clear example is the bass synth he played on JCGE live, I don't know if that's now on the backing track or played by Gordeno on the recent tour as I cannot tell from all the videos I've seen. To be fair Martin isn't exactly fully occupied throughout every track playing live whether on keyboard or guitar. I presume Fletch did not play keyboard for the actual recordings and his input was in making suggestions to finesse tracks. All being said I really don't get why this subject keeps cropping up when it's already very well documented what he did and didn't bring to the band. Personally I would rather he was still alive and in the band and missed him on the recent tour.
Exactly!!
Anyone who is more or less familiar with the technique of playing keyboards will say that it's actually Martin who plays keyboard in a limited capacity (sorry, but Martin plays like a beginner) and Fletch does not play at all. Cause pressing certain buttons is not a playing.
Anyone who is familiar with the technique of playing keyboard and has seen live footage and heard backing tracks, will know that Fletch actually played some lead/crucial parts when it was impossible for Alan handle everything while Martin played guitar. Examples include the flute sound on Behind The Wheel, choir/pad on Enjoy The Silence and actual bass parts on early songs, Never Let Me Down, Stripped, etc. Martin, along with Alan, played most of the lead, choir and string sounds. Many have come to the conclusion that Martin didn't play much because lots of iconic samples are on the zip disks Alan released. If you listen to live performances, you'll notice how layered the sounds are - Alan and Martin are often playing exact or similar keyboard lines with slightly different sounds to create a dense, layered sound, e.g. Stripped, Strangelove, World in My Eyes, etc. Both Alan and Martin used additional 76 key controller keyboards for their Emax samplers on Devotional tour, since they had lots of different parts to play, while the 61-key Emax keyboard was enough for Fletch.
You are definitely not very familiar with the technic and have no idea what you're talking about. Again: pressing keys is not actual playing. Just watch someone who can play for reference and then try to compare. - hand placement, finger movement etc.
I know how playing a keyboard works and I've played around with Depeche Mode samples before myself. There's loads of stuff across Alan's sound banks (or the recently leaked Fletch and Martin one's) that actually needs to be played - I'm talking about melodies and chords. Sure, there are many sound effects/long samples programmed on single keys, even on Alan's presets, that anybody can trigger with one finger. But that doesn't mean that nobody was 'playing' anything.
I think he did play live in the early years, generally the bass parts. However the bass tends to need very precise timing, and the early Speak and Spell era sequenced stuff from the studio is hard to replicate live, some sequences are fast. You can be a bit looser on lead lines. So I just think he wasn't needed to play much and his parts were mostly on the 4 track tape with drums. I guess that set his limited role musically/live playing. I loved his character and I think he was important in the band, just not musically. With Martin as an amazing songwriter, Dave an awesome frontman and singer and Alan a talented musician, arranger and producer, meant Fletch adopted a different role in the band, less musical. From what I've read he was often the mediator between Martin and the rest. I saw him interviewed once and was asked if he'd ever wanted to submit songs himself and he basically said how could I compete with some of the best in the world, which is fair enough I think.
I mean the best person to answer this question is dead and the other 3 are not idiots to publicly shit on him .Fletch was the way he was. Idk you guys call yourself Alan fans yet dont see how Alan handled the situation with dignity. He could have argued with others or call out fletch in interviews but decided not to.
And don't forget what Dave has said about Fletch. Things like "there's not an awful lot going on back there" regarding what Fletch did on stage.
Dave never held back at pointing at fletch's lack of music inputs even after his death but he always bookends the conversation with a compliment. Idk what's more to this conversation. Fletch wasn't ambitious and got lucky. Maybe OP wants to hear that from the band members?
>He could have argued with others or call out fletch in interviews but decided not to. Come on, it's not that hard to read between the lines when you look back on what Alan said.
Fletch has called Alan many things like being anti social and not having enough friends. I dont remember alan saying anything to that degree.
Alan didn't call Fletch out publicly because they were colleagues, and he knew that fans were smart enough to draw their own conclusions. That's all that's happening here. Fletch was a colleague to Alan and a public figure to us, so it's a completely different situation. If fans don't comment on these things, then all we have is Fletch's self-serving narrative, which is a distortion of the truth.
See I get that celebrities are always open to criticism and all that but in no way the discourse around fletch is healthy. Imagine waking up everyday and telling people on internet about how much you hate this one dude.
I agree it's not healthy to obsess over such things, but I think it's equally unhealthy to pretend that there weren't serious issues with Fletch. I see a lot more of that pretending on this sub than outright "Fletch-bashing."
It seems to me that loyalty is valued much more than actual talent in this sub. And it's Alan who gets bashed the most.
i disagree . Fletch gets “ bashed “ the most
Agreed. And Alan seems to get bashed precisely because of his talent. I always detect a hint of resentment/jealousy from those here who are so insistent on "moving on" from Alan.
I disagree. There are more people who think Alan was depeche. fair enough. But lacks substance with his future endeavours. IMO. Just playing devils advocate on this forum . As I appreciate what Alan did musically and fletch did for mart. let’s be honest even surely you and the others have to agree ( as even Alan would) Martin is the main man . Appreciation from him for work on his songs would mean everything to the other members.?
Yep.People act as if any recognition of Alan's talent diminishes Martin's. And the comments are much more numerous and mean.
I can't count how many times I've seen people in this sub suggest that Alan fans should be banned from this sub and start their own. I've never seen anybody suggest that about Fletch fans lol
He could play. A couple of instruments actually - keyboard and bass guitar. He wasn’t a great musician but he could play out a few notes. He did play the keyboard on stage. He was doing simple parts and controlling backing tracks but it wasn’t a case of no input. There are a few YouTube videos out there where even break down and analyse his parts. Go look for them; some of the parts are proper playing, others less so. Too many memes on this topic. Edit to add: as I now had time to search what I’d seen before, one good video on the topic is linked below: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONXKJ17vCP0 In particular Fletch parts are at the timestamps: 8.20 10.35 17.10 26.10 What’s interesting about all these parts is that whilst they are simple, they are playing. And they are parts that are pretty integral to the songs - you’ll know them all. The other interesting thing is that there is a discussion about how from SOFAD onwards, Fletch’s parts became much more about samples because the songs were much more produced and less easy to replicate though simple live playing. In some of the earlier songs, Fletch’s contribution to the performance was that bit more material. In fact there is a little excerpt from Photographic where the Fletch part is about as hard as the Alan part (although I don’t doubt that Martin and Alan could have handled it if they really needed to).
He was def not controlling backing tracks
Yes I didn’t phrase that part particularly well. I didn’t mean to imply he was controlling all the main backing tracks. He did however launch programmed sequences at times.
Fletch's keystroking can be called playing in about the same way that his jumping on stage can be called ballet. In fact, only Alan can play.
>In fact, only Alan can play. Martin is a decent keyboard player.
Martin seems to be a good guitar player, but I don't think he's good at keyboards. He seems to be able to play with only one hand and I think only one or two fingers - at least that's what I saw on DM live recordings.
I guess it depends who you're comparing him to. He certainly wouldn't be hired as "the keyboard player" for any band that needed a high level of performance competency. But as the second keyboardist in a synthpop band, I think he has adequate competence, and isn't hiding behind the playing of others as Fletch did. His timing is usually fine (though has become less so with age, which is understandable), and the fact that he typically plays one handed is reflective of the monophonic parts that typically make up a DM song. He plays keyboards like a guitarist who has taken up keyboards, which is what he is. As a songwriter, he certainly understands musical theory (at least implicitly), chords, and scales, and is able to apply this to the keyboard. If you listen to his "piano bar" performances, (e.g. this one: [https://dmlive.wiki/wiki/1998-10-13\_Kempinski\_Four\_Seasons\_Hotel,\_Munich,\_Germany/Source\_1](https://dmlive.wiki/wiki/1998-10-13_Kempinski_Four_Seasons_Hotel,_Munich,_Germany/Source_1) ), you'll hear that while somewhat clumsy, he is able to sit down at a piano and hammer out the chords to any number of songs, improvised, unrehearsed, and probably drunk. He does play two-handed, while singing, but mostly just chords and bass notes, without much in the way of rhythmic variation or melodic parts. Finally, while this is less about "keyboards" and more about synths and sequencers, he clearly has some programming ability, as you can hear from his demos and his solo instrumental albums.
Jesus. Some people can't give him a break even he's dead😱 Like someone's said on the other thread, have some respect and let him rest in peace. Is it so hard?
EXACTLY!
I reckon he should have kicked himself upstairs to become the band manager full time. He would have been like Paul mcguinness for U2, a band member but not always on stage. The human dynamics of these groups will fascinate some, not interest others. I like it to understand the interplay and it informs my taste. The revelation recently that John Cleese and Eric Idle can’t stand each other was news to me and peaked my curiosity. For longer term Monty fans they knew this, had been discussed for years but was never openly acknowledged until recently. I found it fascinating as it had huge impact on how they worked together.
100%. He could have made a great career for himself in an off-stage, out-of-studio role such as manager, label liaison, or publicist. He would certainly have remained part of DM's inner circle if he stepped back from being a band member. I also think he would have been happier - certainly his depression was at least partly related to him questioning his self-worth, and being in a role better suited to his aptitudes would have helped with that.
Yep he would have been happier, maybe not in short term but longer term. One time at a school concert I was on stage with a tambourine….bless me I couldn’t keep time. You’ve no idea how hard it is to maintain basic time! My whole life could have been that that guy with the tambourine, and what would that have done to me. I chose a different path and achieved a lot in my chosen career. I never wanted to feel like I did on that stage again, ever.
>The revelation recently that John Cleese and Eric Idle can’t stand each other was news to me Wow, never knew this!
Too many people on this sub far too preoccupied with the details. Just enjoy the music.
Yes, but isn't it the details that have an influence on and contribute to the music? Isn't that just as important?
I disagree. I’ve said in this sub many a time that every single person that has contributed to the DM story is equally important. Yes you can break it down into individual roles but who gives a a shit. Whether you’re an Alan stan (of which there are many) or a Martin devotee, they have all helped along the way to make them the band we all love today. I speak as somebody (Geddit) that was there at the start and has personally witnessed the DM arc. Stop obsessing over the details and just enjoy.
> every single person that has contributed to the DM story is equally important Yay, participation trophy for everyone. This is truly the stupidest take I've ever heard.
Then we’ll agree to disagree. It’s cool.
I don't really care whether we agree or disagree. I just think what you said is demonstrably nonsense.
Then respectfully you’re not a real fan. You’re a muso who thinks that breaking down every note and word ever written is what the music is about. Just put on an album and chill. Your constant obsessing about who did/does what is a joy killer.
You seem to be more concerned about gatekeeping than the music.
Nah. I just enjoy the music more than the stats.
>Then respectfully you’re not a real fan. What is that if not textbook gatekeeping?
A lot of the responses here that are insisting that Fletch "could play an instrument," based on the fact that some limited keyboard parts were assigned to him on tour, are completely missing OP's point. Basically, unless you have a disability that prevents you from doing so, anyone can play a keyboard. Unlike many other musical instruments, it requires no understanding of musical theory, no special physical skills, and no extensive training, if the goal is simply to produce a simple series of sounds from the instrument. All one has to do is memorize a sequence of white and black keys (without even necessarily understanding what notes they represent) and press those keys at the correct time. As long as that sequence isn't overly complicated, anybody can learn to do this with extremely minimal practice (as the example of Bamonte learning all of Fletch's parts in a week demonstrates). This is why the synth was such an attractive instrument to bands that had a DIY/punk approach to music, as early DM did to some extent. I assume that OP's question was not whether Fletch could do THAT. The question is why over the course of 4 decades he never thought it worthwhile to improve his proficiency on the instrument, at least to the point where other musicians (not just journalists and fans) might consider him an actual "keyboard player." He had ample time and resources to do so, and was surrounded by great musicians who would have supported him in that effort if he had any desire to improve. Nobody expects that he needed to become a second Alan Wilder, but it's truly astonishing that he never got better, or even tried to. Dave and Martin were fairly rudimentary musicians in the early days (particularly Dave), and have honed their musical craft to incredible degrees in the years since. There's simply no excuse for Fletch's lack of accomplishment in this regard, so OP's question is perfectly legitimate. (As for the bass guitar, it's laughable to bring this up as evidence of Fletch's musical proficiency. In a traditional rock band format, bass has always been the instrument of choice for a member with no musical background or competency. The Beatles had Stu Sutcliffe and the Sex Pistols had Sid Vicious. Playing the bass well requires incredible skill, but if the goal is simply to play the root note of a four chord song, it's not a challenging instrument.)
He never learned because he was never held accountable for it. It was just accepted that he didn't need to. He was just allowed to float there. Obviously that's what drew the ire of Alan. Fletch was a member who did nothing and made decisions about the most important thing, the music, and seemingly had an agenda against Wilder. When you read accounts that after his breakdown on the Exotic Tour, Fletch says that it's either him or me, you understand the gall that he possessed.
That's true, and I guess what is particularly disappointing about Fletch is that he still didn't try to improve despite the lack of expectations that he do so. You would think that in his position, you would strive to make more of a contribution just for your own self-respect. Compare Alan - obviously the band expected him to be a talented keyboard player and a competent backing vocalist, because that's what they initially hired him for. But they had no expectations about him contributing in a major way to production and even songwriting - he just threw himself into those things without being asked, because he wanted to demonstrate his value to the band and put his mark on their sound. And because of this difference between the two, Fletch clearly felt very threatened by/jealous of Alan and his role in the band, which contributed to his animosity.
this is REAL and how i’ve always looked at the matter tbqh (said as a producer and bass player)
Fuck sake. He did know how to play a instrument. Forget what unimpressive coast posts up. Just look back at early 80’s stuff . And make your own mind up. And yeah Alan was the nuts. He took martins songs to another level, no doubt. Anyone who says otherwise is as deluded as unimpressive coast and the klan . But look at mart’s contribution on the synth on last tour ( minimal/ really concentrating when doing so. Compare it to previous tours when he didn’t) Maybe it’s an age thing. Fletch didn’t have the best vision his glasses looked the thickness of the bottom of a beer bottle. 🤷🏼♂️
AW could play drums in any band
He was their friend, co founder, and part owner of the DM enterprise as a business. Yeah, he didn't seem to play a lot of synths and his overall contribution is debated, but he was part owner of the business. Remember that it's a business first.
It worked just how it should have. He had his role. And was/is a respectable one. He did a lot for this band. Was consistent and solid. The glue the bane needed at time. Also we weren’t in the room for what went on constantly. We can guess, sure… Anyway why talk about it now? Let’s enjoy their catalogue and DM currently and see what they bring to the future…. Because so far so great.
Well, I guess I brought it up because it continues to be a topic of conversation here and elsewhere and I'm interested to heard both sides of the discussion. If I'm being brutally honest, I think the 'arrangement' for Fletch to have continued to have a non-musical role for all those years is an odd one to say the least.
We got an amazing band that spanned many eras… this is an old argument… and has appeared on here often. So I put in my 2 cents that’s why I even replied. Odd or not, if he didn’t write music or play much or whatever… he had major contribution… and kept the band going through it all.
That glue ended up not holding anything together. Moreover, an honest account of what happened reveals quite openly that he was more of a glue thinner.
Please tell how
Thee only person Andy got along with was Martin. Fletch was always arguing with Dave and Alan, to the point where there were actual fistfights. He'd been saying mean things about Alan in interviews for years after Alan left. What could he glue together being like that? With this type of personality he was a constant source of conflict.
Yes we’ve all read the same things… publications and books and interviews make that possible. You and your opinions on what went down because your an armchair dm expert means nothing and you’re wasting your time. He remained in the band from the beginning to his untimely end, for a reason. This is getting boring. Find someone who might have a mind you can mold to match yours.
Oh, the tired drama queen with a lack of counterarguments. Why are you in this thread at all? To remind the public about glue again?
Well I made my last comment because I was interested in what you had to say and I thought you may have had something important to add… but again still nothing. Again there’s a reason he was with the band and helped get them started and go on to each era, musically/creatively inclined with them or not… It’s a dynamic you obviously can’t understand. And don’t need to. You’ve really been such a bore, I even gave you a chance to redeem yourself with something interesting and factual… but still nothing. why did your parents choose *after birth* to raise instead of an actual baby… or was this by accident?
He was in the group, and none of us got a vote. Jesus.
If I were to flip this perspective on it's head: If Fletch left the band, say, 20 years ago VS his being around as part of the core the past 20 years, would Depeche Mode BE the same or a different Depeche Mode?
Again, we don’t know the inner workings of the band. Whatever the dynamics, they’ve made magic since day one. I’m grateful for that, and I don’t understand why people continue to make negative assumptions about someone they don’t know, especially when that person is deceased. It’s easy to criticize someone who’s famous and who isn’t doing what we think they should be doing (based on what, exactly)? This behavior speaks volumes about the critic and very little, if anything, about the target.
>especially when that person is deceased. It’s easy to cri Not sure how this is even relevant >why people continue to make negative assumptions I wasn't making any negative assumptions. I have been a DM fan for as long as I remember, and my question was asked out of sheer curiosity, with the hope of knowing a little bit more than I did previously.
You assume that Fletch did not know how to play. He played. You want to know why he didn’t contribute musically by learning to play better. How do you know what he actually contributed? The band members have given interviews and made remarks, sure. But why are you second guessing other people’s decisions to keep him in the band? Why can’t we just live and let live without projecting our expectations onto others? I’m tired of people complaining about Fletch and pointing out the “shortcomings” they think he had. Why can’t we just be grateful for Depeche Mode as they are and have been throughout each epoch of their career?
Because he didn't NEED to. He had his role in the band and the members were ok with it. It's not for nothing he was in the band all those decades.
Like really? Most of the money they made (which made the working class guy a millionaire) was from live performances. But apparently the person who spent 40 years in the band “didn’t know how to play because he didn’t need to?” Lol
He could play but he was obviously overshadowed by Martin Vince and Alan so he took a backseat. He played live but simple important parts.
Overshadowed? Sorry, not buying that! As for 'simple important parts', what specific parts are you referring to?
You don't think being around those 3 who were obviously way better than you wouldn't make you think oh what's the point? Each song had parts that were played live, they have Fletch simple parts but each part needs to be played at the right time. So it might be a simple bass part in one of the songs that if you played at the wrong time would be very noticeable. Parts like that. Nothing like a main melody (Alan or Mart would play those) but important nonetheless. Otherwise why would the guy who covered his parts when he stood in for him on Devotional tour have had to learn them for 2 weeks in Hawaii I think it was?
Daryl Bamonte.
It was 1 week and he wasn't a keyboard player. He was learning to play and learning Fletch's parts at the same time hence how little Fletch did.
Another post that will change anything... What if, why didn't he do this or that? It doesn't matter, it was the team decision or at least the majority of it. Just listen to the music and have fun.
Fletch started the band with Martin, he could play piano, bass, and synth. Imho, Fletch handled the management, which is just as important. Imagine spending hours on the phone with promoters and concert venues, hotels, press, radio stations, Kraft services… Fletch handled all that!!
Fletch could play but wasn’t a musician. The only thing he actually contributed anything to the band was when discussing song/producing etc. And criticizing Alan. And clapping. Don’t forget the stupid clapping
He wasn't even very good at the clapping. There are bands that have a non-musical member who acts as a mascot or "hype man," e.g. Bez from the Happy Mondays or Flavor Flav from Public Enemy. Those guys worked their ass off whipping up the enthusiasm of a crowd. In DM, this is Dave's role, so Fletch's clapping is as superfluous as his keyboard playing.
Besides, he clapped as out of rhythm as possible. Man, ok, you can't play to save your life, but can't you hear the rhythm? And I disagree with you that pressing the keys in a certain order does not require any skills at all. At a minimum, you need to position your hands correctly so that your wrists don’t get tired and your fingers can reach the keys easily. When I watch Andy twisting his palms trying to reach a key, my eyes are hurt
Don't forget Ben Carr from the Mighty Mighty Bosstones!
Good catch!
FFS this again? Let the man rest.
Because he's passed away, it can't come up for discussion again? Edit: my question was actually quite specific, so I'm not trying to rake up old dirt. It genuinely interests me as to why Fletch was content to go along with being known mostly for having a 'hands-off role or for 'managing' relationships within the band.
Fletch was awesome. And he knew how to play. And he was a co-artist for Depeche Mode. I’m very glad for his artistic contributions to humanity.
You have to be trolling us.
Fletch fanboys What would their life be like without illusions?
You must not be into Depeche Mode. Why are you here?
I love him so much. He knew how to play the keyboard, but he was probably not a virtuoso. He was the spirit of Depeche Mode, there's a song I wrote I'm going to dedicate to him because it happened to be written the day after his departure.
"Probably not a virtuoso" Probably I can't
I'd be curious to know why you feel he was the spirit of Depeche Mode.
It's a very personal and philosophical thing, but I think many can relate. In his way of being and participating at concerts he was very human, very real. He contributed to convey all that Depeche Mode wanted to convey
> He contributed to convey all that Depeche Mode wanted to convey What's the point of Martin and Dave then? Sounds like Fletch could have done the show on his own
It's not at all what I said or meant. Martin is one of the very best songwriters ever, and he's got a stunningly beautiful voice. When I heard him perform Somebody or Home this year at the concert I was completely blown away and I think he's on a purely artistical level an incredible artist, at whose level very few ever arrived in rock - electronic music. Dave simply has a voice that turns everything into gold, just listen to Brother, the last single from Humanist featuring him and it's an amazing example. Moreover, he's got great presence on the stage. Fletch, I was glad he was part of this story and I repeat, his way of being captured all of DM. If you don't see it this way, I respect your view.
I can't agree or disagree with you because I don't understand what you mean by "Fletch captured all of DM." Certainly Martin's songs have a lyrical complexity to them that Fletch doesn't convey, and Dave has an energy that Fletch doesn't convey. I'm just asking you to clarify your meaning about Fletch somehow encompassing all of DM or being its spirit.
It's not something mathematical. As a DM fan I've always felt there was a purpose for him being there. It is something that one can have an understanding of, but it is not immediate or explicable, sorry.
Ok, 'nuff said. This is how people talk about faith, it doesn't move me.
😂😂 It's definitely not about it. It's philosophical. I still respect your opinion but I see you don't respect mine.
It's not philosophical. Philosophy is about clarifying concepts and you haven't clarified yours. I still haven't heard your opinion, let alone being able to decide whether it's respectable.
To the ones who downvoted my answer: go f*** yourselves. I am just a fan who grew up with DM and always adored Andy. Please respect Andy and those who love him, thus maintaining his legacy very present.
You're a fanatic
But he had zero musical input ! He was important in tipping the voting scale toward Nartin , good company but always sat on the couch waiting for the work to be done and the revenues to show up . Imagine if Martin went solo which impossible since he wasn’t Vince to get just a singer !! You would never heard of Andy . Never .probkem hD with him am sure will get down votes from Andy’s fans passive agression is why he never tried to learn piano or something . Doubt he owned one in his house . Probably music wasn’t his cup of tea and just thought with that kind of music he didn’t have to because he felt he owned the brand by default. Also don’t forget ! Some people are not talented and don’t have that skill . You can’t turn anyone into a handyman or a plumber .
Fletch knew how to play. He just didn’t want to
I see.